View Full Version : How would you discipline a youth with impaired vision?


mildadhd
11-18-15, 05:53 PM
How would you discipline a youth with impaired vision?




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Stevuke79
11-18-15, 09:20 PM
Obscene hand gestures?

Socaljaxs
11-18-15, 09:40 PM
Verbally?.. Is this a trick question? Verbal explanations on what the infraction is and why this youth is being disaplined in the first place so they understand why they are getting the consequence of their action or behavior.

What am I missing? Is this another puzzle, like the feelings one

Funky1
11-18-15, 09:48 PM
Need more input...

Stevuke79
11-18-15, 10:20 PM
I think Peripheral is referencing his response in a different thread (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1770821#post1770821), quoted below.

we new just wanted to ask how do you discipline a 11yr old with adhd and oppositional difiance disorder. Nothing seems to be working. We have our hands full with him and it's not getting better.

How would you recommend disciplining a 11 yr old with impaired vision?

Stevuke79
11-18-15, 10:20 PM
Hide his stuff?

mildadhd
11-18-15, 11:09 PM
How would you discipline a youth, whose behavior's may partly be due to an impairment?

(Like a vision impairment, or other types of impairments, delays in development, etc..)




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Stevuke79
11-18-15, 11:33 PM
My sillier responses aside, I'm pretty sure I would disciplin them the same way I would disciplin any other. Parenting styles need to be unique for every child, but i dont think a visual impairment tells you much about how to parent.

All the same principals apply. Focus on the positive. Focus on the behavior you want.. get passed the behavior that u don't want. How do we disciplin? Minimally!

(And my little girl is a rambunctious loose cannon with an attitude ... not the easiest kid. And we get along just fine. That being said, at best the only child I have any idea how to parent is my own, .. and I'm not always sure that I even know how to do that.)

I'm not picking on you peripheral. I think you actually made an EXCELLENT point with this in the last thread.

I'm just not sure it holds up as it's own line of inquiry.
(And please don't take my silly remarks the wrong way ... if I could control myself I really really would...)

mildadhd
11-18-15, 11:53 PM
My sillier responses aside, I'm pretty sure I would disciplin them the same way I would disciplin any other. Parenting styles need to be unique for every child, but i dont think a visual impairment tells you much about how to parent.

All the same principals apply. Focus on the positive. Focus on the behavior you want.. get passed the behavior that u don't want. How do we disciplin? Minimally!

(And my little girl is a rambunctious loose cannon with an attitude ... not the easiest kid. And we get along just fine. That being said, at best the only child I have any idea how to parent is my own, .. and I'm not always sure that I even know how to do that.)

I'm not picking on you peripheral. I think you actually made an EXCELLENT point with this in the last thread.

I'm just not sure it holds up as it's own line of inquiry.
(And please don't take my silly remarks the wrong way ... if I could control myself I really really would...)

This is a different thread.

How is the Opening Post question, "how would you discipline a youth with impaired vision", different than a question like "how would you discipline a youth with impaired emotional-self-regulation"?

mildadhd
11-19-15, 12:03 AM
How much is the vision impairment contributing to the behavior?




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mildadhd
11-19-15, 12:14 AM
As odd as the opening post question may seem to be.

"How would you discipline a youth with impaired vision?"

That's the question this thread is specifically meant to explore.





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dvdnvwls
11-19-15, 01:54 AM
Okay...

Peripheral, how would you do it?

Socaljaxs
11-19-15, 02:11 AM
Had a feeling there was a trick question involved in this? Is there a scientific principal we are to be told after we answer?

Cause, You do realize this is a hypothetical "what if" question, and how someone wants to discipline a child and will end up disciplining this a make believe child. Will not always be the same?

dvdnvwls
11-19-15, 03:30 AM
Peripheral, I'm sorry but without you giving your example of how you would discipline, the thread is not making any sense. It's like shoving a microphone into someone's face and saying "Quick - tell me what you think" without giving them any more information than that. I know you've mentioned a topic, but that doesn't help. Since you started the thread, you are the one who goes first with your opinion.

Socaljaxs
11-19-15, 03:39 AM
Peripheral, I'm sorry but without you giving your example of how you would discipline, the thread is not making any sense. It's like shoving a microphone into someone's face and saying "Quick - tell me what you think" without giving them any more information than that. I know you've mentioned a topic, but that doesn't help. Since you started the thread, you are the one who goes first with your opinion.

Yup,:goodpost: I keep waiting for a catch or for it too click and it make more sense in regards too specifically what he wants to discuss..

I don't think he really wants to discuss what we think we should and would do in regards to disciplining a make believe youth,,,

If the OP is actually wanting to discuss the above, is it in regard to what? Not disciplining a child with impairments because the child has imparements? If so, than I think children need rules and structures and to learn that there are consequences for behaviors and actions.. Consequences being both positive consequences(rewards) and negative (punishment) regardless if a child has special needs or not.

sarahsweets
11-19-15, 05:17 AM
shadow puppetry?

Lunacie
11-19-15, 11:49 AM
This is a different thread.

How is the Opening Post question, "how would you discipline a youth with impaired vision", different than a question like "how would you discipline a youth with impaired emotional-self-regulation"?

So it's a different thread but it's asking basically the same question ...

How much does any health impairment contribute to a child's behavior - or misbehavior?


How much is the vision impairment contributing to the behavior?

P


Since this isn't a forum for the impairment of being blind, I don't see the point.

Stevuke79
11-19-15, 12:07 PM
I absolutely respect the question. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. :)

"how would you discipline a youth with impaired vision", different than a question like "how would you discipline a youth with impaired emotional-self-regulation"?

I don't think it's different at all.

I think I'm giving pretty much the same answer in both threads.

And I think both threads, including this one, pose a good question that people have. For instance a lot of people think that impairments mean less or modified discipline.

Let's find some common ground. I do think that impaired vision and emotional-self-regulation definitely influence the expectations that we have for a child. They probably also influence the child's level of comprehension and the way the child communicates, .. which then impacts how we communicate with the child.

But I think that discipline isn't really different.


How much is the vision impairment contributing to the behavior? P

Maybe a lot, maybe not at all.

If it IS contributing, then I think it's important to empathize and let the child know we understand the difficulty and the challenge they are having. Make sure the child understands that we don't think badly of them or their impairments, .. we're simply making a request for a certain kind of behavior.

And I think the way that the child internally makes steps towards that behavior, may have to be different than for most children, and the child may not be able to "follow the crowd" in that way. I experience this with my child who has a lot of my tendencies (not diagnosed though),.. I have to help her find ways to get to a certain behavior. I have to guide her to her own unique "baby steps" to achieve that goal.

But this is true for all children. Whether their path, their baby steps, their frustrations, or their expectations are more typical or whether they are influenced by an impairment or some other challenge,.. I think the mode of discipline is fundamentally the same.

I think my daughter is fairly atypical (bless her). I think I would parent and discipline any child pretty much the same way.

Cause, You do realize this is a hypothetical "what if" question, and how someone wants to discipline a child and will end up disciplining this a make believe child. Will not always be the same?

:goodpost: That's a very good point!

I think it's important to treat all of one's hypothetical children equally. Otherwise it will lead to jealousy among your other imaginary children.

Not disciplining a child with impairments because the child has imparements? If so, than I think children need rules and structures and to learn that there are consequences for behaviors and actions.. Consequences being both positive consequences(rewards) and negative (punishment) regardless if a child has special needs or not.

Joking aside, I actually think that's the key issue. I think it's a common misconception that if a behavior is not a child's "fault" then the child should be exempt. I agree with you completely that this is not the case.

I think that's a terrible mistake.. I think it's just as bad as the opposite misconception, which is that extra discipline can make up for a disorder. Both types of parenting can mess up a child pretty badly.

Socaljaxs
11-19-15, 12:57 PM
I

But I think that discipline isn't really different

I think it's important to treat all of one's hypothetical children equally. Otherwise it will lead to jealousy among your other imaginary children.

Joking aside, I actually think that's the key issue. I think it's a common misconception that if a behavior is not a child's "fault" then the child should be exempt. I agree with you completely that this is not the case.

I think that's a terrible mistake.. I think it's just as bad as the opposite misconception, which is that extra discipline can make up for a disorder. Both types of parenting can mess up a child pretty badly.

:goodpost::thankyou::D

My thoughts-if a child has any impairments or not, they still, like I previously mentioned need rules and structure.. If a child was diagnosed with phychopathy or sociopathy, would this child be exempt from being discipline, because they too have a known mental impairment? I don't believe children with disabilities or any impairment should be exempt from discipline. Same if a child has autism or down-syndrome.. They may have special needs yes, and the person administering the discipline should have more patience to better explain the reason for why this "make-believe"child is receiving discipline, but proper discipline and structure is healthy for kids.

Stevuke79
11-19-15, 06:10 PM
Peripheral, whether or not you and i agree on the answer, I think your question is important and I think this is a great thread. People often conflate different expectations with different modes of discipline.

I know this is its own separate thread but for instance, in the 'discipline for adhd/odd child' thread. People often want to know "if I can put a child in bucket-A, what modes of disciplin will work to extract the behavior I want". And I think you mean to counter that attitude which is important and we both clearly agree there.

mildadhd
11-19-15, 09:12 PM
Verbally?.. Is this a trick question? Verbal explanations on what the infraction is and why this youth is being disaplined in the first place so they understand why they are getting the consequence of their action or behavior.

What am I missing? Is this another puzzle, like the feelings one

Vision is a sensory feeling.



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Lunacie
11-19-15, 09:19 PM
Vision is a sensory feeling.



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And ... :confused:

And how does that affect how you discipline a child with impaired vision?

Socaljaxs
11-19-15, 09:20 PM
Vision is a sensory feeling.
P

Ok and this is what? If someone is impaired visually why would you disapline them visually? Unless, you think we should all know something we have requested you elaborate on? I don't understand what sensory vision matters here?:confused:

mildadhd
11-19-15, 09:22 PM
Had a feeling there was a trick question involved in this? Is there a scientific principal we are to be told after we answer?

Cause, You do realize this is a hypothetical "what if" question, and how someone wants to discipline a child and will end up disciplining this a make believe child. Will not always be the same?


I really like considering answers to the OP question.



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Socaljaxs
11-19-15, 09:24 PM
I really like considering answers to the OP question.
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:confused::confused: in this thread YOU are the OP

mildadhd
11-19-15, 09:33 PM
Peripheral, whether or not you and i agree on the answer, I think your question is important and I think this is a great thread. People often conflate different expectations with different modes of discipline.

I know this is its own separate thread but for instance, in the 'discipline for adhd/odd child' thread. People often want to know "if I can put a child in bucket-A, what modes of disciplin will work to extract the behavior I want". And I think you mean to counter that attitude which is important and we both clearly agree there.



What are "modes of disciplin"(Stevuke79)




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mildadhd
11-19-15, 09:38 PM
:confused::confused: in this thread YOU are the OP

Everyone's answers.



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Stevuke79
11-19-15, 09:38 PM
What are "modes of disciplin"(Stevuke79)
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:scratch:
:eyebrow:

Yes ... go on ...

mildadhd
11-19-15, 09:46 PM
And ... :confused:

And how does that affect how you discipline a child with impaired vision?

That's what I'm asking too.


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Socaljaxs
11-19-15, 09:57 PM
Why does this feel like we are pulling teeth to understand what you are asking? Please will you just explain and elaborate on WHAT you want this discussion to be about? Yes I get consequences and punishments for a visual impaired young person, but what specifically are you asking about? I'm sure there is something in your brain that is expecting for us to magically understand and discuss what it is you ACTuALLy want to discuss..but right now we don't understand, so please elaborate

It's starting to feel like you want our input to tell us we are wrong because according to this science or research doe. This is right.

Lunacie
11-19-15, 10:07 PM
That's what I'm asking too.


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Do you have any ideas on what the answer could be?

Stevuke79
11-19-15, 10:30 PM
And ... :confused:
And how does that affect how you discipline a child with impaired vision?

That's what I'm asking too.
P

Right.. only Lunacie asked it more as a rhetorical question...

mildadhd
11-19-15, 10:53 PM
Do you have any ideas on what the answer could be?

I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision.


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Socaljaxs
11-19-15, 10:55 PM
I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision.


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Why? Do you feel that because the child has vision impairments, this said child is excempt from all forms of disapline and consequences for negative behavior or actions?

Stevuke79
11-19-15, 11:10 PM
It's sad that you would think so little of a child, simply because they have an impairment.

It's sad to think that you could look at a child and see not a child, but simply 'impairment'. No consequences are appropriate where there is no possibility for expectations of any kind.

I sincerely believe that if you had a child, you would see so much more and you would therefore impart the things, including discipline, that they will need to have a fulfilled life.

I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision. P

You would be doing the child and terrible and irreparable disservice for which they will suffer their entire life.

Why? Do you feel that because the child has vision impairments, this said child is excempt from all forms of disapline and consequences for negative behavior or actions?

.... because Peripheral, when this child grows up they will have consequences, just like the rest of us. As a parent, it would be your job to prepare them for that.

Stevuke79
11-19-15, 11:24 PM
Peripheral, perhaps we're talking about two different things.

To me discipline doesn't include, and NEVER includes:

1. Corporal punishment
2. Insults
3. Yelling
4. Anger
5. Intimidation
6. Making the child feel that their worth or my approval depends upon meeting my expectations

I wouldn't, in these manners, discipline a visually impaired child or a child with impaired emotional regulation. I would never discipline any child in these manners.

I'm not saying I never yell at Adira. I have yelled, but when I do yell I know full well that I did so because I was angry (or upset or whatever) and i apologize to her and tell her that I made a mistake. And i dont delude myself or excuse myself by saying I was simply employing good discipline, ... I know very well, that's bullony!


Anyway,... is that our misunderstanding?

mildadhd
11-19-15, 11:52 PM
Peripheral, perhaps we're talking about two different things.

To me discipline doesn't include, and NEVER includes:

1. Corporal punishment
2. Insults
3. Yelling
4. Anger
5. Intimidation
6. Making the child feel that their worth or my approval depends upon meeting my expectations

I wouldn't, in these manners, discipline a visually impaired child or a child with impaired emotional regulation. I would never discipline any child in these manners.

I'm not saying I never yell at Adira. I have yelled, but when I do yell I know full well that I did so because I was angry (or upset or whatever) and i apologize to her and tell her that I made a mistake. And i dont delude myself or excuse myself by saying I was simply employing good discipline, ... I know very well, that's bullony!


Anyway,... is that our misunderstanding?


It's sad, but the list of those things are included in the definition of discipline.

I have been a parent for about 16 years.

In my opinion your not talking about discipline, your talking about compassion/attachment, in which I completely agree with you.


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Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 12:12 AM
It's sad, but the list of those things are included in the definition of discipline.

I have been a parent for about 16 years.

In my opinion your not talking about discipline, your talking about compassion/attachment, in which I completely agree with you.


P


Discipline is a vague term in the contexts of forms and ways to go about discipline... However, on this thread we have spoken about healthy ways to go about administering discipline, we havent been discussing or even included, unnecessary and unhealthy forms of discipline..

What do YOU (please, not the dictionary) but YOU consider discipline in your own words?

mildadhd
11-20-15, 12:35 AM
Discipline is a vague term in the contexts of forms and ways to go about discipline... However, on this thread we have spoken about healthy ways to go about administering discipline, we havent been discussing or even included, unnecessary and unhealthy forms of discipline..

What do YOU (please, not the dictionary) but YOU consider discipline in your own words?

Not the dictionary?



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Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 12:45 AM
When you asked about how do you disciple a youth with visual imparements... No one here started debating or even speaking of corporal punishment or extreme and controversial methods of punishment such as physical(hitting verbal insults or duress or any form that wouldn't fall into positive parenting.. I googled definitions of discipline and the consensus on all dictionary and wiki type sites I saw, is The word discipline is defined as imparting knowledge and skill, in other words, to teach.

Discipline is used by parents to teach their children about expectations, guidelines and principles. Children need to be given regular discipline to be taught right from wrong and to be maintained safe. Child discipline can involve rewards and punishments to teach self-control, increase desirable behaviors and decrease undesirable behaviors in children.

In its most general sense, discipline refers to systematic instruction given to a disciple. To discipline thus means to instruct a person to follow a particular code of conduct.

While the purpose of child discipline is to develop and entrench desirable social habits in children, the ultimate goal is to foster sound judgement and morals so the child develops and maintains self-discipline throughout the rest of his/her life.
Source child discipline Wikipedia..
I can paste more if needed.

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 12:47 AM
Not the dictionary?P

Yes, IN YOUR OWN WORDS how would you describe discipline? What does discipline MEAN to YOU

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 12:55 AM
And speaking of the dictionary, I took a peek at Merriam Webster :
(Just to prove that discipline does not imply 1-6)

dis·ci·plined
dis·ci·plin·ing
transitive verb
1 :to punish or penalize for the sake of enforcing obedience and perfecting moral character
2 :to train or develop by instruction and exercise especially in self-control


I definitely do both of those. But they never include 1-6.

They DO include:
1. Telling DD that such and such is not allowed and her behavior is disappointing.
2. Time outs (mostly to calm and redirect)
3. Threatening ro withhold, and if needed, actually witholding privileges for bad behavior, for instance:

1. deducting allowance, (That's the main one. Nearly the only one and 99.9% of all discipline.)

2. declining special activities like a trip to an art supply store

3. Confiscating toys if they are abused or used in an inappropriate way

4. Disengaging myself TEMPORARILY and always with the understanding that its only temporary, from certain fun activities if she's not being respectful.

And SORRY .. I didn't realize u are a parent. Paternal high-five! !


And thank you, I do use compassion and attachment, but there is also discipline which includes punishments.

I try to keep the punishments natural and 'logical'. For instance, if you're not respectful to daddy, I won't want to do this activity right now. Or if u use your paints without putting on your smock, then u can't use them. Or if u and your friend trash my house when she comes over, then we can't have her over.

And she's the most absent minded 8 year old in the world but SHE KNOWS that if she wants to have a nice instrument to play, she better respect it .... and although she'd forget her head were it not attached and she breaks and ruins nearly all her possessions, she's perfectly mindful and responsible with her guitar... bc she knows I'd confiscate it otherwise.

I don't like things like: if you speak disrespectfully to daddy, I will confiscate a toy. Where's the logic? What has one to do with the other. If it's hers then it's hers..if not, then that should be explicit.

mildadhd
11-20-15, 01:00 AM
Discipline = suppression

Attachment = expression


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Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 01:02 AM
Discipline = suppression

Attachment = expression


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Can you expand on that please :confused:

mildadhd
11-20-15, 01:11 AM
noun
1.
training to act in accordance with rules; drill:
military discipline.
2.
activity, exercise, or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training:
A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.
3.
punishment inflicted by way of correction and training.
4.
the rigor or training effect of experience, adversity, etc.:
the harsh discipline of poverty.
5.
behavior in accord with rules of conduct; behavior and order maintained by training and control:
good discipline in an army.
6.
a set or system of rules and regulations.
7.
Ecclesiastical. the system of government regulating the practice of a church as distinguished from its doctrine.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discipline

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 01:12 AM
Discipline = suppress

Attachment = expression
P

Ok.. I'm not saying I understand what you mean by that, but let's for a moment take it as a given that the above statement would have clarified your question.

That distinction is your personal distinction. Those are your personal definitions. .

And thats great if that helps u. :)


But we don't know those unless you tell us. So when Socaljaxs asks you:

..Is this a trick question?
.....
What am I missing? Is this another puzzle, like the feelings one...
I keep waiting for a catch ....

That's what she's asking for. What otherwise unknown information is underlying your question.


And also, I second socal's question:
Can you expand upon that please?

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 01:19 AM
I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision.
P

Ok let's try this one again? Why won't you discipline an impaired child?

mildadhd
11-20-15, 01:26 AM
Ok let's try this one again? Why won't you discipline an impaired child?

I would not discipline any one.




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Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 01:29 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discipline

This here Just caused even more confusion..

I and others here have asked for your own words as to what you think, discipline means to YOU? The link you included made what you said in previous posts make even less sense! I as well as others asked for your own words not the dictionary specifically and we got a dictionary definition....

Im just trying to understand your point of view on this subject especially when you stated you won't discipline an impaired vision youth? Why not? It would help clear the confusion, if you described in more than 1 word what discipline means to you.

Also you being a parent when your child is misbehaving and not behaving in a manner that is positive, how do you try to correct the child's misbehavior?

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 01:30 AM
I would not discipline any one.
Development is the goal.

P
And you do this devolpment HOW? And please don't just say a one word answer, please can you provide an example of devolpment being,the goal in your experience. And how that is different than discipling a child by teaching them positive behaviors in a child.

what do you consider discipling a child?

mildadhd
11-20-15, 01:43 AM
..Also you being a parent when your child is misbehaving and not behaving in a manner that is positive, how do you try to correct the child's misbehavior?

There is enough punishment in the world.

I keep attachment foremost.

(Although I am not perfect and like Stevuke, i try to openly acknowledged and explain that i was wrong, after I have gotten angry, etc.)


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namazu
11-20-15, 01:46 AM
Peripheral, you might enjoy reading about
"gentle discipline",
"nonviolent discipline",
"positive discipline",
"attachment parenting discipline"
or any number of other strategies with less catchy names --
all of which focus on helping children learn to control/constructively direct/understand their behavior
in ways that are mindful of the child's needs.

I don't have personal experience raising children, and I don't endorse any specific method mentioned above.

But there are many approaches to "discipline" (including ones that use the word "discipline", and others that just call it "parenting") that involve recognition of, and respect for, a child's needs for love and attachment in their approach to teaching and modeling behavior -- and don't involve physically or mentally hurting a child.

EDIT: I don't mean to imply that you need parenting advice for yourself, necessary, but just wanted to give some examples of "discipline" that involve principles of attachment, and to show that not everyone asking about "discipline" is talking about threats or harsh punishments; most parents I know just want to know how to help their kids learn without losing their cool.

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 02:05 AM
There is enough punishment in the world.

I keep attachment foremost.

(Although I am not perfect and like Stevuke, i try to openly acknowledged and explain that i was wrong, after I have gotten angry, etc.)


P
S
Ok so let me try another approach. This is a make believe situation how as a parent using attachment would you specifically handle this situation.. Like if this was your kid what would YOU do?

Situation 1: Your child is 12 years old, you get a call from the child's school telling you that your child was acting up a very disrespectful and saying inappropriate things to a few students as well as making sexual degrading comments to the teacher and was disrupting the other students, and when asked to stop being disruptive your child got up threw the chair at the teacher and stormed out of the class..

As a parent of this child how would you use attachment to help fix this behavior.

mildadhd
11-20-15, 02:10 AM
S
Ok so let me try another approach. This is a make believe situation how as a parent using attachment would you specifically handle this situation.. Like if this was your kid what would YOU do?

Situation 1: Your child is 12 years old, you get a call from the child's school telling you that your child was acting up a very disrespectful and saying inappropriate things to a few students as well as making sexual degrading comments to the teacher and was disrupting the other students, and when asked to stop being disruptive your child got up threw the chair at the teacher and stormed out of the class..

As a parent of this child how would you use attachment to help fix this behavior.

This example/situation lacks a healthy attachment relationship, needs a healthy attachment relationship.



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Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 02:15 AM
Peripheral, you might enjoy reading about

But there are many approaches to "discipline" (including ones that use the word "discipline", and others that just call it "parenting") that involve recognition of, and respect for, a child's needs for love and attachment in their approach to teaching and modeling behavior -- and don't involve physically or mentally hurting a child.

EDIT: I don't mean to imply that you need parenting advice for yourself, necessary, but just wanted to give some examples of "discipline" that involve principles of attachment, and to show that not everyone asking about "discipline" is talking about threats or harsh punishments; most parents I know just want to know how to help their kids learn without losing their cool.

:goodpost:I have a feeling,but am trying to clarify it, verses just make the assumtion, that in this thread, we are all in fact talking about positive discipline and positive and healthy parenting. However, Peripheral definition and views of the word "discipline' as mostly tied to the negative forms, in regards to unhealthy and negative punishment and what society considers controversial means of discipline like stated above,.

when in fact it's the verbiage of the word itself that is faultering. Not the methods of teaching positive behavior and setting rules and structure for a child that is in fact healthy. But I don't want to make the assumtion and assume anything, hence me asking for further explainations

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 02:17 AM
This example/situation lacks a healthy attachment relationship, needs a healthy attachment relationship.P

:confused::confused: what does that mean! How would one gain this healthy attachment relationship you speak of? And how would you handle a situation as stated above specifically

The example above maybe not in totality at one time, but they are real situations that and have occurred in classrooms do occur

namazu
11-20-15, 02:21 AM
:goodpost:I have a feeling,but am trying to clarify it, verses just make the assumtion, that in this thread, we are all in fact talking about positive discipline and positive and healthy parenting.

Yes, I believe so, too.

mildadhd
11-20-15, 02:26 AM
:confused::confused: what does that mean! How would one gain this healthy attachment relationship you speak of? And how would you handle a situation as stated above specifically

The example above maybe not in totality at one time, but they are real situations that and have occurred in classrooms do occur

The best teachers understand attachement and attunement the best.

Heathy attachment relationship is better than any type if discipline, in my opinion.



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Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 03:09 AM
The best teachers understand attachement and attunement the best.

Heathy attachment relationship is better than any type if discipline, in my opinion.
P

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN! Please use specific examples? Cause you saying attachment relationship is better but with out sources or even an example of said claim.. It doesn't make sense! how is this different than disapline or even better.. You repeating,this over and over again isn't going to make it make sense.. Please dumb down what this means

You keep avoiding the questions and just repeat yourself. Please explain this in better understanding

You make absolute statements, yet you have not yet explained why it is best or even how it differs from discipline? You say that above example is not an example of a healthy attachment. But yet to clarify how it would be instead? Children with or with out imparements make mistakes, and do things that may not be appropriate..Yet other than you don't discipline, or your verbs ge is just different, what do you do instead? do you just say ok I love you and all is good?

sarahsweets
11-20-15, 05:21 AM
I think the idea of discipline and punishment get mixed up. To me, discipline is all about correcting undesirable behavior. Punishment is all about making a child feel bad for that behavior. You can discipline a child without shaming them or destroying their self esteem.

Little Missy
11-20-15, 09:26 AM
How would you discipline a youth with impaired vision, please?

Lunacie
11-20-15, 11:01 AM
The best teachers understand attachement and attunement the best.

Heathy attachment relationship is better than any type if discipline, in my opinion.



P

Kids were born to test their limits. Even with the best parents or best teachers, they will test their limits.

And sadly, most parents and most teachers are not the best they can be.

They don't have a clue about how to connect with kids and provide support and encouragement.



But honestly, I don't think kids with vision impairments are punished for those impairments once they are discovered.

I never felt shamed over needing to wear very thick glasses, but my dad got very frustrated over my breaking them so often.

Something I didn't realize as a child, is that the eye doc was putting children's frames on me when I needed an adult frame to fit. No wonder they were subject to stress and breakage, eh?



If only people could accept ADHD impairments the same way they accept vision impairments as something beyond our will power to control. :rolleyes:

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 01:29 PM
Peripheral, we may all be in agreement.

I think we can figure this out with a simple "yes or no" question.

So do you consider any of the below 3 things, to be discipline:


1. Telling DD that such and such is not allowed and her behavior is disappointing.
2. Time outs (mostly to calm and redirect)
3. Threatening to withhold, and if needed, actually witholding privileges for bad behavior, for instance:
A. deducting allowance, (That's the main one. Nearly the only one and 99.9% of all discipline.)
B. declining special activities like a trip to an art supply store
C. Confiscating toys if they are abused or used in an inappropriate way
D. Disengaging myself TEMPORARILY and always with the understanding that its only temporary, from certain fun activities if she's not being respectful.


In your opinion, are any of those 3 considered discipline?

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 01:55 PM
I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision. still very unsure how or why this question was even asked, if you don't believe in discipline? It doesn't make any sense for me at least, with your style of parenting you would ask?
It's sad, but the list of those things are included in the definition of discipline.I have been a parent for about 16 years.In my opinion your not talking about discipline, your talking about compassion/attachment, in which I completely agree with you.


Discipline = suppression
Attachment = expression

I would not discipline any one.
There is enough punishment in the world.I keep attachment foremost.P
This example/situation lacks a healthy attachment relationship, needs a healthy attachment relationship.P
The best teachers understand attachement and attunement the best.Heathy attachment relationship is better than any type if discipline, in my opinion.P
Peripheral, we may all be in agreement.I think we can figure this out with a simple "yes or no" question. So do you consider any of the below 3 things, to be discipline:In your opinion, are any of those 3 considered discipline?


:yes::confused: I think, I finally figured out what Peripheral is talking about.. Unfortunately, it was discovered by me having to go google happy, after a night of what I consider repetitive non-informative responses and examples, and a lack of any clarification of this said parenting style and approach..Or even the name of the theory, Peripheral is writing about..

So what I found which is what I believe peripheral is speaking about is a theory of one approach used by parents, called
attachment theory
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory
Attachment parenting
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_parenting


Please, help us out next time, if you can't explain what you are trying to speak about, Can you, to save what can be time wasted back and forth responses, and a lot of confusion, just name the theory you are speaking of, or point us in the right direction for us to understand?

It's very difficult to discuss a topic you want to discuss, when you aren't providing information, that isn't commonly known! Or if it is known concept, maybe we have some confusion as to what this theory is called. It may help to move a conversation forward, instead of what I'm noticing and my opinion of threads becoming repetitive asking you "what does this mean" and a response from you that is just 1 sentence, that is mostly consisting of repeating the words over and over again, without any clarification or examples to the help clear up what you mean... which just turns into a thread of trying to understand and your responses of repetitive sentences, without any concept or theory or examples, to help the audience gain an understanding..

I get it may be difficult to use your own words to explain, but if not able too and you find that a repeat asking of clarification seeking is apparent, maybe point us in a direction of where we can discover for ourselves in other people's words what you mean! I get that for you it may be difficult to use your own words and opinion,of a concept or theory you believe in, and you understand, however, repeating the same words over and over again just becomes a frustration for parties involved..

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 03:57 PM
:yes::confused: I think, I finally figured out what Peripheral is talking about..
....
So what I found which is what I believe peripheral is speaking about is a theory of one approach used by parents, called
attachment theory
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory
Attachment parenting
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_parenting

That's definitely what he's talking about,.. and Peripheral, as Socal asks, please let us know what you're referencing... or at least give us the "big reveal" earlier on.

But that doesn't explain his position. Attachment Parenting DOES NOT preclude discipline. Proponents of attachment parenting like to specify that it's "attachment parenting" not "permissive parenting". They simply specify that when disciplining the child, at all times be sensitive, empathetic, comforting and show the child RESPECT.

I accomplish all of those.. while dishing out loads of discipline. (I don't practice attachment parenting, but their approach to discipline, when understood correctly, is very reasonable.)

Quoted from: http://www.attachmentparenting.org/parentingtopics/olderchildren/effectivediscipline

Discipline that is empathetic, loving and respectful strengthens that the connection between parent and child, while harsh or overly-punitive discipline weakens the connection. Remember that the ultimate goal of discipline is to help children develop self-control and self-discipline

So clearly they do not hate DISCIPLINE!

Now excuse me, I'm going to go and discipline my daughter,.. it's been a while and I'm sure she's done SOMETHING by now :giggle::giggle:

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 03:59 PM
still very unsure how or why this question was even asked, if you don't believe in discipline? It doesn't make any sense for me at least, with your style of parenting you would ask?

I can't believe that didn't occur to me!!

It's like asking how would you prepare poultry for a child, and after trying to no avail to understand what's being asked,.. you're told:

Haaa! I'm a VEGETARIAN!!

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 04:36 PM
But that doesn't explain his position. Attachment Parenting DOES NOT preclude discipline. Proponents of attachment parenting like to specify that it's "attachment parenting" not "permissive parenting". They simply specify that when disciplining the child, at all times be sensitive, empathetic, comforting and show the child RESPECT.

Quoted from: http://www.attachmentparenting.org/parentingtopics/olderchildren/effectivediscipline

Discipline that is empathetic, loving and respectful strengthens that the connection between parent and child, while harsh or overly-punitive discipline weakens the connection. Remember that the ultimate goal of discipline is to help children develop self-control and self-discipline

So after looking into it more, based I a few random comments.. I did see blogs and topics the reference the difficulty and issues with the concept of discipline based upon attachment parenting principle.. Ideally. the beliefs is that if the parent is properly attached to said child, they will never mis-step because they are so secure... And because of fear or insecurity of losing the attachments approval. I read one article that couldn't figure out what to do with child in preschool that would cry cause mommy left her and she no longer felt secure, and couldn't even go to the bathroom with out child with her.. Also, when another child was born older attachment child resented new baby because they take secure time from said child... For me based on one of the confusing sentences and random things OP said, for me it sounds a like a fear based model..I can see this being an affective tool for babies and toddlers, but not for all stages of devolpment and growth.. And I'm curious how many of these helicopter parents out there practice these attachment based principals..

Plus, I'm curious if your child Peripheral still co-sleeps in same room as you? You mentioned 16 years so I'm assuming child is a teenager? Also for parents that don't produce enough milk and they bad attachment parents for giving children formula?

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 04:39 PM
... the beliefs is that if the parent is properly attached to said child, they will never mis-step because they are so secure...

Which tells us that this is, of course, nonsense. If only you just loved the child enough,. they would do no wrong.

Doing wrong is part of a healthy learning process. My daughter does loads of wrong and is better off for it. :D

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 04:42 PM
I do see the appeal of attachment parenting.

As a parent, we have to make a decision how to discipline. No matter what our child does, all we WANT to do is love them, but somewhere deep down we know that would be INDULGENT of us and neglecting our responsibilities and ultimately HARMING the child.

And then we have attachment parenting which tells us we can HAVE OUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! Zero discipline parenting! All the good behavior of discipline, and none of the important but difficult decision making. Tastes great and zero calories!

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 04:44 PM
But seriously.. disciplining your child is definitely one of the least pleasant responsibilities that I have in any area of life,.. and if I REALLY COULD do away with it, I would. When DD misbehaves, all I really WANT to say is

"NO PROBLEM!! All is forgiven, .. let's go to the park anyway because I ENJOY THE PARK WITH YOU .. and it would really stink if your bad behavior deprived ME of the time that I enjoy spending with you. You're the one who misbehaved, MY behavior was FINE. So why should I SUFFER??!!"

.. but of course, that's exactly what has to happen! I have to deny both of us the trip to the park.

Even the soft discipline that I employ.. I'd do without it, if not for my daughter's best interest.

Socaljaxs
11-20-15, 04:57 PM
This example/situation lacks a healthy attachment relationship, needs a healthy attachment relationship.P

Which tells us that this is, of course, nonsense. If only you just loved the child enough,. they would do no wrong.
Doing wrong is part of a healthy learning process. My daughter does loads of wrong and is better off for it. :D

Which is what this above comment addressed, that If the child had in fact had a healthy attachment, this wouldn't happen... So this negative behavior that the child Shows is now no longer the child fault but it lays now on the parents at fault because they weren't good at a providing a healthy attachment!

And if a child has behavior imparements what happens then? If a child has ADHD and can't sit still, and gets in trouble I'm class for talking too much or disrupting the class, it that because of unhealthy attachments as to why the child can't behave in the setting?

mildadhd
11-20-15, 10:22 PM
Why suffer?

Go to the park, then after some good fun for an hour or so, when walking home (etc), discuss together what's on your minds, and why you are concerned.

I listen better after play.

It might be hard to believe, but after talking about things, sometimes, it is me the adult who is making the mistake, and learn something new.



P

Stevuke79
11-20-15, 10:54 PM
Nearly all, if not all of your suggestions are things that I think a parent should do.


Go to the park, then.. discuss together what's on your minds, ..
....
I listen better after play.

These peripheral. All of these. These are crucial but uncommon parenting techniques and it says a lot that they are also your techniques.

There is a time and place for everything. And there is a time and place for consequences as well. Sometimes consequences that we don't like. (I say 'don't like' .. i didn't say hurt, or harsh or cruel.)

But peripheral, you seem to think that your golden suggestions (and they are golden) are mutually exclusive to consequences and discipline.

Not only is there no basis for that, but it's COUNTER to a core principal of attachment parenting. Treat your child with respect, and treat them how YOU want them to treat you. This is fundamental to teaching the child that we respect ALL people.

But imagine if you did that.. EXCEPT where consequences were concerned.

Imagine the message to the child. . You disrespect me. You mistreat me. You disregard what I WANT ... and what do I do? Take you to the park. (Now sometimes that might be the right move and u discuss it later... buthe let's talk about a case where boundaries and expectations are agreed upon and clearly defined. You gave the child a CHOICE. .. as attachment parenting encourages. )

Fundamentally is that how I want the child to treat me? To treat others. To do and do and do for others... without establishing a relationship of mutual respect and consideration.

We're teaching the child to treat people like crap and still expect those people to treat the child well. How's that going to work out in the real world?

Furthermore I'm telling the child that others might treat them like crap. If it's good enough for daddy it's good enough for me .. so go ahead and walk all over me. But it's not good enough!

It might be hard to believe, but after talking about things, sometimes, it is me the adult who is making the mistake, and learn something new.
P

I find it easy to believe bc I experience it all the time. And i make sure to tell adira when I've discovered that I'm wrong, not just bc it's the truth, but I'm modeling that behavior for her.

And i dare say my 8 yr old knows that its OK to be wrong or to make a mistake,... which is incredible. I didn't figure that out till I was about 28 or 29.

I really respect this in you. Most parents can't do this. I remember when I first realized that being a parent didn't require me to always be right. Such a counter intuitive notion of an authority figure.

dvdnvwls
11-21-15, 01:39 AM
Peripheral - I have some experience with the kind of situation that happened in this thread, in the sense that I've done what you've just been criticized for. I think I understand your point of view in the way you created the thread and posed the question.

Here's the problem: Regardless of our intentions in starting a conversation in the kind of way you and I have both done, people invariably and universally regard it as us playing a hostile trick - they never see it as an interesting way of presenting a topic. I know that to you, as it has been to me in the past, this way of introducing something seems so thought-provoking and interesting. The sad truth is, it isn't thought-provoking, it isn't interesting, it's just plain mean and unfriendly. I know those were not your intentions, but those were the results.

The reason is that the people reading your posts cannot read your mind. They can't see your good intentions, and they don't know that if they're patient they'll see the whole picture. They won't learn about these things over time. This is just the way things are - it's not good to present topics in the way you did, because even though your intentions are good, people hate it and feel tricked. Every time, regardless of whether they're used to your style or not. And they don't feel better after the whole thing is explained to them - it just makes them angry.

I learned "the hard way" - just don't present topics in the way you presented this one. If you have an idea or opinion, you have to state it at the beginning - never ask others to go first, and never hide your own opinion on your own thread - not even temporarily, not even for the dramatic effect of doing so.

mildadhd
11-21-15, 01:10 PM
I have always been interested in the biology of attachment in general.



P

mildadhd
11-21-15, 01:15 PM
How would you discipline a youth with impaired vision?

-what is "discipline"?
-what is "youth"?
-what is "impaired"?
-what is "vision"?


P

mildadhd
11-21-15, 01:46 PM
How would you discipline a youth with impaired vision, please?

I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision, I would go play at the park, (what ever the youth wanted to do), then after an hour or so of good fun, we discuss the days topics together.



P

Lunacie
11-21-15, 02:01 PM
I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision, I would go play at the park, (what ever the youth wanted to do), then after an hour or so of good fun, we discuss the days topics together.



P

What if the child has a mental disorder that disrupts their thoughts and makes discussing such events difficult?

mildadhd
11-21-15, 02:07 PM
How would you discipline a youth with impaired vision, please?

Thanks!

After thinking about this discussion.

I must admit I have reminded my son to be polite, "please" and "thank you", etc..

Although I am not sure I needed to teach him to be polite, or would he have learned to be polite, if I provided him with a polite example?


P

Little Missy
11-21-15, 02:17 PM
I would not discipline a youth with impaired vision, I would go play at the park, (what ever the youth wanted to do), then after an hour or so of good fun, we discuss the days topics together.



P

That is pretty much how my parents handled things. Their point came across loud and clear too.

Little Missy
11-21-15, 02:18 PM
Thanks!

After thinking about this discussion.

I must admit I have reminded my son to be polite, "please" and "thank you", etc..

Although I am not sure I needed to teach him to be polite, or would he have learned to be polite, if I provided him with a polite example?


P

Yes, politeness is emulated by the child from the parent.:)

mildadhd
11-21-15, 03:09 PM
What if the child has a mental disorder that disrupts their thoughts and makes discussing such events difficult?

The preverbal emotional urge to play and laugh, occurs during environmental conditions that promote brain development.

How youth play, or not, can tell us a lot about youth neurophysiologically, in general.

Some of my favourite walks home from the park with my son, are when there was joyfully nothing for us to say at all.

Like I remembered when I had a preverbal mind of a kid myself.



P

Socaljaxs
11-21-15, 05:12 PM
Why suffer?Go to the park, then after some good fun for an hour or so, when walking home (etc), discuss together what's on your minds, and why you are concerned.I listen better after play.It might be hard to believe, but after talking about things, sometimes, it is me the adult who is making the mistake, and learn something new.

Why suffer? Because as a parent, it is their "responsibility" or should be their responsibility, to do what is in the best interest for their child, this example you mentioned may work for a younger child, but a teenager, not so much... Parents well not all but some parents choose their children over themselves often, and they will sacrifice themselves and their temporary desires for their children! You get up earlier on a weekend because the child is crying? We suffer our sleep for it.... Just one example of many that exist of suffering for the sake of your children

We may want to just relax at home on a Sunday, but we have responsibilities to attend too. Such as taking a kid to little league games making sure they are fed, drive them places, run errands... So a person may suffer and sacrifice their own desires to do things for their child and the reward is greater for some then their own temporary happiness. As above poster he understands that he may want to play at park with child, but child needs boundaries and rules, and if rule is broken he will sacrifice his desire to play, for the need to teach the child..but putting your own desires aside for your kid, is a positive example for children, and teaches by example responsibilites and promotes positive just another one of many ways for child to feel more secure.

Peripheral I learned "the hard way" - just don't present topics in the way you presented this one. If you have an idea or opinion, you have to state it at the beginning - never ask others to go first, and never hide your own opinion on your own thread - not even temporarily, not even for the dramatic effect of doing so.

How would you discipline a youth with impaired
vision?
-what is "discipline"?
-what is "youth"?
-what is "impaired"?
-what is "vision"?

P
As stated above this presentation of questions would be favorable if you went first.. Especially since you haven't yet EVER answered these questions asked in regards to what you believe is considered discipline!


Some of my favourite walks home from the park with my son, are when there was joyfully nothing for us to say at all.
Like I remembered when I had a preverbal mind of a kid myself.P

Sorry but this sounds more about fulfilling your own needs to play whixh has been mentioned by you a few times, about why suffer fbecasue of a child's misstep

Socaljaxs
11-21-15, 06:21 PM
I'm not trying to attack you, if it may appear sometimes I am, my intention isn't that, it has been to gain an understanding. :grouphug:

As for parenting, My comments come tfrom my own personal experience growing up... my parents had a more attachment parenting approach,THOUGHT NOT FOLLOWING it with said guidelines it was their style and nota guiding they read and follow kinda thing... In that sense, it's just what they did and closely resembles the actions theories and beliefs and bullets list of it.... though co-sleeping was me and my sister camping out on my parents floor, until we felt we didn't want too anymore... which we both very much enjoyed growing up..

my parents, never had us feel unwanted/neglected or unloved or favored over each other. Nor did we ever fear that disappointing them would never be forgiven.No matter what we've done and where we are in life or how olde we are, my sister and I (even now with us both in our 30's age-range) know mommy and daddy love us unconditionally and will do anything within their means and ability to help us and provide for us and make our lives easier...I looking back now, would consider my sister and I very fortunate, and in a sense spoiled... I will admit to that.,.we learned values and proper behavior yes, and both are not screwed up from our upbringing... but we both have had plenty of our own fair shares of "did we really do that" and "what were we thinking" moments..

My parents did not actively discipline my sister and I. My parents both worked and are very successful in their careers, growing up, we did had a live in nanny/housekeeper to help out.. And carpool systems, and my sister and I were very active in any extra curricular activities we wanted and when old enough we went out to make our own money and be productive by babysitting or worked after school....we never really had any form of discipline or were we ever punished by our parents Ever actually. though few times tried just never enforced.. I mean like both of us did really dumb things that kids do.

Plus, If my sister and I wanted to do something, we just needed to be honest and tell our parents what we are doing..My parents number 1 concern was our safety.. So if we ditched school or partied till 4:00 am we just needed let them know and it's OK to do!

.yes both my sister and I did finish school and both graduated college..but neither of us had the discipline or the enforced us or required us to do anything but finish school.... Grades itself weren't as important, and no one checked our homework or if we even did it.. Yes we had D's and U's But as long as we didn't fail out or drop our or not finish, we were fine.

I was an ADHD untreated kid, my sister is not... Just a type A personality with a bad temper and teenage years:eek::faint::eyebrow: she's a red head with a temper to match.. Me I was that kid that was always getting herself into fun.. I always felt loved and secure in my parents love and approval, and my mom is someone who can be the friend mom..

Growing up, I never had curfews, never did choirs, I didn't do or learn how to do my own laundry or even clean properly, Until I left town for college and that was me doing it... That is If didn't drive home to have them do my laundry... If my mom even tried to send me to time out, I either found something else to do, or just didn't do it.. My parents never degraded me or physically or verbally abused me in any way. when I did something wrong they always had my back.... I wanted to play a sport I did, I wanted to buy clothes, I did. I wanted to party till 4:00 am and after party at my parents house.. I did and so did my friends(parents would rather me and my sister be home with our friends And having fun and us all safe verses us out and not knowing for sure, plus she was able to really know the company my sister and I were keeping in terms of quality/character of friends) so weekends meant friends over, all the time. Or the random stray friends that lived with us for time period...I never went without anything, except rules and structure..

So growing up it was awesome, not gonna lie... However I never learned skills and certain behaviors that I suffer now from, because of it. Not knowing how to clean or cook or ever even required by my parents to do it.. I learned morals and values, and ethics yes. But my sister and I do still find our selfs needing help from our parents,l and things we should have learned at a younger age, we never got because of this.. A lot of our mistakes could have been prevented with stricker rules and structure.. We both don't have suffered common behaviors learned and needed because of these things.. We have both talked about this too. And while growing up are parents rocked, looking back now I'm like why on earth would this have ever been ok, in your eyes, and me being untreated ADHD, it became a harder road to learn behaviors that never occurred to me that I needed because of this.

mildadhd
11-21-15, 11:55 PM
Yes, politeness is emulated by the child from the parent.:)

"emulated"

"by the child"

"from the parent."

":)"

Fascinating :)


P

mildadhd
11-22-15, 12:39 AM
So if the adult aliens said, "take me to your leader, please."

The young aliens would learn to say, "take me to your leader, please."

And if the adult aliens where anxious and/or depressed, distressed, etc..long term.

There is the possibility the young aliens could be anxious and/or depressed, distressed, etc..

Playing is an excellent way to for parents to explore the child's needs without triggering the fight or flight emotional distress responses.



P

mildadhd
11-22-15, 01:06 AM
This thread is dedicated to the children and adults who have been restrained, because nobody knew what else to do.


P

Stevuke79
11-22-15, 01:17 AM
Playing is an excellent way to for parents to explore the child's needs without triggering the fight or flight emotional distress responses
P

Maybe the thing I am most proud of on this earth, when I discuss behavior with my daughter and even when it includes consequences and discipline, there is never any emotional distress or fear.

And i was shocked the day I realized this was the case. I didn't know it was possible.

So I agree.. play is a good way... it's not the only way. Consequences don't have to be distressing.

Socaljaxs
11-22-15, 02:28 AM
Peripheral, do You consider the word NO discipline?

Or do you think telling your child no equals a form of discipline?

How do you feel about setting rules or guidelines for children.. Or choirs required for the child?

Do you believe rules are considered a form of discipline? (household rules and structure)

sarahsweets
11-22-15, 09:34 AM
I know I said this before, but there is a fne line between dicipline and punishment. Sometimes the idea of teaching a child through discipline or punishment can backfire. I am a fan of natura consequences as long as they do not involve shame. The only thing shame ever taught me was that I wasnt good enough. "not good enough" is never a lesson that you want to teach a child. Kids need structure but they also need flexibility. I have three kids and they are really good and I am lucky. The most important thing my husband and I had to learn was to always follow through on what we said we would do. No kid learns if the parent says one thing will happen and then doesnt follow through with it.

mildadhd
11-23-15, 01:48 AM
Peripheral, do You consider the word NO discipline?

No.

Or do you think telling your child no equals a form of discipline?

No.


How do you feel about setting rules or guidelines for children.. Or choirs required for the child?

My son helps me.

Now that he is older he knows how to help himself more, when I am not there.

(It's real fascinating to see someone grow from dependent to more independent.)

Do you believe rules are considered a form of discipline? (household rules and structure)

I feel and think a healthy attunement relationship makes safe boundaries disciplineless.


P

dvdnvwls
11-23-15, 02:57 AM
Sarah, I think I essentially agree with what you're saying. About the definitions: I think it's fairly easy to draw a line around what "punishment" is and isn't, but "discipline" is IMO a bigger and more diffuse topic.

Here are some intentionally inflammatory definitions - I've made them up on the spot and they may not be complete or correct, but they may be something to think about:

Punishment: doing bad things to someone in order to manipulate them to do what you want

Praise and reward: doing good things to someone in order to manipulate them to do what you want

Discipline: learning how to act in certain situations, based on a model. The model is usually a person, often a parent or coach or leader, but might also be a published standard or an idealized mental representation. The learning might involve punishment and/or praise... or it might not. Discipline must involve learning, and that learning must lead to action; but the methods by which the learning happens are many and varied.

Those are some of my opinions, written in the style of definitions.

Socaljaxs
11-23-15, 04:28 AM
No.
No.
My son helps me.
Now that he is older he knows how to help himself more, when I am not there.
(It's real fascinating to see someone grow from dependent to more independent.)
I feel and think a healthy attunement relationship makes safe boundaries disciplineless.
P

These above questions asked and thank you, for your response, are in fact considered forms of discipline! Google it, if you think I'm wrong! The first page that came up for me are in fact from articles published from schools and studies in parenting of positive parenting.. Guidance and discipline doesn't have to mean a negative.. It's actually can be a very good thing for children if you are addressing it in, and administering the discipline and guidance in a a positive manner.

Discipline and punishment have for a lot of people very different meanings tied to it.

I'm not sure how much of a person's upbringing will play a part in how you view discipline and punishment..

I personally think there is a very big difference between positive parenting disciplined/punishment verses negative abusive /overusing the authority of discipline and punishment

mildadhd
11-23-15, 09:22 AM
These above questions asked and thank you, for your response, are in fact considered forms of discipline! Google it, if you think I'm wrong! The first page that came up for me are in fact from articles published from schools and studies in parenting of positive parenting.. Guidance and discipline doesn't have to mean a negative.. It's actually can be a very good thing for children if you are addressing it in, and administering the discipline and guidance in a a positive manner.

Discipline and punishment have for a lot of people very different meanings tied to it.

I'm not sure how much of a person's upbringing will play a part in how you view discipline and punishment..

I personally think there is a very big difference between positive parenting disciplined/punishment verses negative abusive /overusing the authority of discipline and punishment


Restraining is also considered a type of discipline.

What type of discipline would you call hand cuffing a hyperactive youth at school?

These types of controversial questions about the term discipline can be avoided with healthy attachment and attunement relationships.

Healthy boundaries are impossible without healthy attachment and attunement.


P

Socaljaxs
11-23-15, 01:08 PM
Restraining is also considered a type of discipline.P

Yes, restraining is a type of discipline...
Have you heard the term self-restraint & self discipline! People will hold themselves back (example unhealthy foods, if they are trying to drop weight or get in better overall health, they will restrain themselves from eating foods that are not good for themselves and their goals)self-restraint & self discipline can be very healthy! I'n my every day real life, I practice self -discipline and self-restraint in not only my eating habits but, my impulse habits and behaviors as well.

If a criminal or someone goes out and commits an illegal act. Would you consider it wrong for the officer to physically restrain, that person to prevent attacks on themselves or ever to other people?

What type of discipline would you call hand cuffing a hyperactive youth at school? I need a few more details here, but will answer in both scenarios as well :D. Cause it is missing important details here, and it would depend on a few factors as to why the child is receiving this form of punishment.. and by whom...:D

1)Is this said child in danger of, or even attempted or did follow-thru, causing harm to either/or themselves and/or others? If this authoritative person finds this child in danger of committing harm and it is a safety issue of concern, in this context setting yes, restraining a child to protect themselves and/or others from harm.

2.) if above is not the case and said child is just hyper.. If there isn't a real immediate threat of safety.. At least in USA where I live, if a teacher or prinicpal did this to say me(I was a hyperactive child) it is illegal and considered an unnecessary and excessive form.. And this is abuse... This would not be a considered a positive or even an effective form of discipline coperal punishment and excessive use or force is an abuse of authority, is very different that proper positive forms of discipline .. . if the people involved are abusing their rights over you it is very different than a person that is being restraint for a real safety reason.

http://national.deseretnews.com/article/5407/is-handcuffing-special-needs-kids-acceptable-discipline-the-officer-who-did-faces-backlash.html

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/06/health/disciplining-kids-with-adhd-handcuffed-boy/

This Article above show that this is in fact an illegal act due to unnecessary and excessive force. No my opinion this is to me abuse and not what I would consider discipline

These types of controversial questions about the term discipline can be avoided with healthy attachment and attunement relationships.
Healthy boundaries are impossible without healthy attachment and attunement.

The above example you included is not considered an effective or even a positive form of discipline..This is an extreme physical form and situation that is considered abuse... Abuse and discipline are NOT the same thing Not all forms of administering punishment and discipline are considered abuse. There is a huge difference between the two, I'm sorry you associate abuse and discipline the same thing for whatever reason, but no these two are very different..

Healthy boundaries is about RESPECT and not about only having healthy attachments! you respecting the others and doing things accordingly out of respect for the person.. With any form of discipline or punishment, proper respect and effective and positive and respectful means of discipline, is key.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2719514/

dvdnvwls
11-23-15, 03:58 PM
I would call restraints a form of force, not a form of discipline.

I don't think discipline includes anything done to a person; I think discipline is a resulting habit. (What habits might a person develop if you restrain him on a regular basis? THAT is the discipline you would be teaching.)

This mistake in use of words adds to the confusion surrounding the topic, I think. Using force on someone to compel him to act in a certain way can be a major problem, and hiding or sugar-coating it by calling it "discipline" instead of "force" (or "assault", for that matter) is misleading and demeaning.

Many things are done to children (and to people in general) under the name of "discipline" because if they were called by their true names the perpetrators would be embarrassed.

Luvmybully
11-23-15, 05:13 PM
Without a mutually agreed upon definition of discipline, you cannot have an effective conversation about it.

dvdnvwls
11-23-15, 05:19 PM
Many people, on hearing the word "discipline", immediately think it means "violence by adults on their own children, or violence by teachers on their students". With that kind of meaning too often being either implied or inferred or both, I can see why Peripheral and many others tend to believe that "discipline" is a bad thing.

Stevuke79
11-23-15, 05:39 PM
Without a mutually agreed upon definition of discipline, you cannot have an effective conversation about it.

Hmmm, perhaps that's been the strategy all along..

Luvmybully
11-23-15, 05:41 PM
To me, discipline means to teach.

You do not harm in order to teach proper behavior. Harming teaches improper behavior.

To me, using force means to punish. I do not view discipline and punishment as the same thing, although technically, and going by the dictionary, they can be viewed as the same.

dvdnvwls
11-23-15, 06:04 PM
You do not harm in order to teach proper behavior. Harming teaches improper behavior.
It's easy to say this, but it isn't always easy to know what constitutes harm. Sometimes a sharp word can be harmful, and sometimes a physical action can be not harmful. Example (for which I don't necessarily believe I have the right answer): Is forcing a young child to hold an adult's hand when crossing a parking lot harmful? Is the answer you might give really always true?

Socaljaxs
11-23-15, 06:34 PM
And speaking of the dictionary, I took a peek at Merriam Webster :
(Just to prove that discipline does not imply 1-6)

dis·ci·plined
dis·ci·plin·ing
transitive verb
1 :to punish or penalize for the sake of enforcing obedience and perfecting moral character
2 :to train or develop by instruction and exercise especially in self-control


I definitely do both of those. But they never include 1-6.

They DO include:
1. Telling DD that such and such is not allowed and her behavior is disappointing.
2. Time outs (mostly to calm and redirect)
3. Threatening ro withhold, and if needed, actually witholding privileges for bad behavior, for instance:

1. deducting allowance, (That's the main one. Nearly the only one and 99.9% of all discipline.)

2. declining special activities like a trip to an art supply store

3. Confiscating toys if they are abused or used in an inappropriate way

4. Disengaging myself TEMPORARILY and always with the understanding that its only temporary, from certain fun activities if she's not being respectful.

And SORRY .. I didn't realize u are a parent. Paternal high-five! !


And thank you, I do use compassion and attachment, but there is also discipline which includes punishments.

I try to keep the punishments natural and 'logical'. For instance, if you're not respectful to daddy, I won't want to do this activity right now. Or if u use your paints without putting on your smock, then u can't use them. Or if u and your friend trash my house when she comes over, then we can't have her over.

And she's the most absent minded 8 year old in the world but SHE KNOWS that if she wants to have a nice instrument to play, she better respect it .... and although she'd forget her head were it not attached and she breaks and ruins nearly all her possessions, she's perfectly mindful and responsible with her guitar... bc she knows I'd confiscate it otherwise.

I don't like things like: if you speak disrespectfully to daddy, I will confiscate a toy. Where's the logic? What has one to do with the other. If it's hers then it's hers..if not, then that should be explicit.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discipline

Without a mutually agreed upon definition of discipline, you cannot have an effective conversation about it.

I one hundred percent agree:goodpost::thankyou: and yes, I thought we did establish what a definition of discipline means..and not our opinion but a standard definition of the word itself.. However this word, will have a feeling attached to it for some, and maybe this feeling if negative may be holding them back from allowing this word to have a different definition.

Stevuke79
11-23-15, 06:37 PM
How about: "SEVERELY!!"

(Changing my answer to the question, "how would you discipline a visually impaired child?")

Socaljaxs
11-23-15, 06:43 PM
It's easy to say this, but it isn't always easy to know what constitutes harm. Sometimes a sharp word can be harmful, and sometimes a physical action can be not harmful. Example (for which I don't necessarily believe I have the right answer): Is forcing a young child to hold an adult's hand when crossing a parking lot harmful? Is the answer you might give really always true?

I personally believe harm may occur unintentionally! but when the intention behind it is meant to guide and teach and help using the discipline administered.. when it is not intentional harm such as a hand hold that's too painful, or if for another example, not in terms of discipline but but in terms of safety of the child, if you grab and catch a child before falling in a pool that doesn't know how to swim, and accidentally scratch the child while grabbing them before falling in..yes we physically harmed the child but the intent was to protect this child

How about: "SEVERELY!!"

(Changing my answer to the question, "how would you discipline a visually impaired child?")

dvdnvwls
11-23-15, 07:24 PM
The Wiktionary entry on the word "discipline" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/discipline#Etymology) really shows why this discussion is so confusing.

"Discipline" apparently comes from ancient words for "instruction", "pupil", "learn", and "accept". Those origins sum up, for me, the good side of what discipline is supposed to be. But modern meanings have come to include a lot of other things, not all of which are good, and many of those meanings disagree with each other. No wonder it's hard to talk about.

dvdnvwls
11-23-15, 07:27 PM
... in terms of safety of the child, if you grab and catch a child before falling in a pool that doesn't know how to swim, and accidentally scratch the child while grabbing them before falling in...
Good example. Yes.

And...

Some kids would feel harmed by that scratch (along with everything else that had just happened), while others would barely notice.

Luvmybully
11-23-15, 07:35 PM
It's easy to say this, but it isn't always easy to know what constitutes harm. Sometimes a sharp word can be harmful, and sometimes a physical action can be not harmful. Example (for which I don't necessarily believe I have the right answer): Is forcing a young child to hold an adult's hand when crossing a parking lot harmful? Is the answer you might give really always true?

Forcing a young child to hold your hand when crossing a parking lot is not a matter of discipline, or punishment. It is a matter of safety and protection.

It's like when a parent forces their child to get stitches for a bad wound, or forces them to sit in a car seat. Sure, some kids are going to have a REAL hard time with either, but parents have a responsibilty to keep their children safe when they are too young to make those decisions for themselves.

I do not view safety as teaching proper behavior. To me, they are 2 very different things.

Luvmybully
11-23-15, 07:39 PM
The Wiktionary entry on the word "discipline" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/discipline#Etymology) really shows why this discussion is so confusing.

"Discipline" apparently comes from ancient words for "instruction", "pupil", "learn", and "accept". Those origins sum up, for me, the good side of what discipline is supposed to be. But modern meanings have come to include a lot of other things, not all of which are good, and many of those meanings disagree with each other. No wonder it's hard to talk about.

Exactly.

To me, discipline has always meant to teach. However, there IS a perfectly legitimate definition of "discipline" as punitive.

To really discuss discipline, there needs to be clarification of the definition, or everyone is talking about different things!

Socaljaxs
11-23-15, 09:07 PM
One thing that I'm still confused about, since this thread moved away from.. But I'm still trying to understand the OP intent involved when asking the original question? AS he stated multiple times that he doesn't believe in discipline, so I ask, why was this question originally asked?


Also, I believe that some of the confusion here is also due to how a person just internalize discipline, some people will have feelings attached to words, even if aware of it or not.. Some words a person will have an reaction type feeling associated with it being positive or negative.. It can be due to many factors including childhood memory with feeling attached.

I believe many of us here have been speaking of what can be referred to as positive parenting and positive discipline, which is to teach and guide and help a child and enforcing disipline in a heathy and positive intent with respect and in a healthy way. Others speak of excessive abusive forms of disciple. Which is another difference going on here as well.

Stevuke79
11-23-15, 09:14 PM
One thing that I'm still confused about, since this thread moved away from.. But I'm still trying to understand the OP intent involved when asking the original question? AS he stated multiple times that he doesn't believe in discipline, so I ask, why was this question originally asked?

It seems he was looking for more of a soapbox than a discussion.

Socaljaxs
11-23-15, 10:18 PM
It seems he was looking for more of a soapbox than a discussion.

:thankyou::goodpost::yes::umm1::yes::yes::D:goodpo st::thankyou::giggle::lol

mildadhd
11-24-15, 12:01 AM
I think this has been a great discussion so far about discipline.

That is partly why I started this thread.

What I am not sure is the side discussion by some members about my intentions?

I ignored that side discussion, because I didn't want the thread to get closed by retaliating.


P

mildadhd
11-24-15, 12:11 AM
Up to 50 % of people in jail have ADHD.

Up to 50 % of people suffering from addiction have ADHD.

Children with ADHD, etc, are being handcuffed, etc..

What do you think my intentions are?

I prefer to discuss "play", because it is the opposite of "distress".

Distresses can derail thread discussions.

I wrote "vision" because i wanted to change it up, and focus on a sensory affect rather than emotional affect.

I never specified bad discipline or good discipline, I was hoping to explore/discuss both and every other angle possible.

That being said, I stick to my personal experiences/opinions on the topic of discipline, in general.

I really appreciate the posts on the topics, I am learning a lot on the topics.

Lots of great insights, thanks.







P

mildadhd
11-24-15, 12:42 AM
Socialjaxs

I am sorry, I have barely had time to know you at all, in the month you have been a member.


P

mildadhd
11-24-15, 01:09 AM
What type of discipline would it be, when a teacher tapes a hyperreactive child's head to a desk?



P

mildadhd
11-24-15, 01:14 AM
When I was a student, I personally witnessed a teacher sit on hyperreactive young teen for a very long time.

What mode of discipline would that be called?



P

dvdnvwls
11-24-15, 01:34 AM
What do you think my intentions are?
to convince people to say that they agree with you, without you having to actually explain what it is you want them to agree with.

Lunacie
11-24-15, 01:38 AM
What type of discipline would it be, when a teacher tapes a hyperreactive child's head to a desk?



P

When I was a student, I personally witnessed a teacher sit on hyperreactive young teen for a very long time.

What mode of discipline would that be called?



P

Neither of those is discipline in my opinion. I'd call both abuse.

I don't know if this link will work, but this is what I wish teachers would model for our children.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/downtime/special-education-teacher-gives-awesome-compliments-to-students/vi-BBndhhP

mildadhd
11-24-15, 01:44 AM
Neither of those is discipline in my opinion. I'd call both abuse.

I don't know if this link will work, but this is what I wish teachers would model for our children.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/downtime/special-education-teacher-gives-awesome-compliments-to-students/vi-BBndhhP

High Five!


P

Socaljaxs
11-24-15, 03:49 AM
Up to 50 % of people in jail have ADHD.
Up to 50 % of people suffering from addiction have ADHD.
Children with ADHD, etc, are being handcuffed, etc..

Can you cite the source for this? Also, what is the correlation you are trying to make with this? Is this a causation?

What do you think my intentions are?
I'm honesty trying to figure that one out..color me confused, but for a person to not believe in discipline, and have a very strong (it appears) reasoning and ideology of this topic. It doesn't make sense for me at least and maybe others as to what the intent you hope to gain from this thread in the very beginning... I believe you do have a reason for it, it's just not clear as to what it is...also, another issue I seem to be finding along with mismatched definitions and unclear intent is that, In this thread (without pinpointing each and every one,which I can do,if needed )however, my intent here is not to attack, my intent is to have a positive and informative discussion on said topic... , but, there has been several fallacious arguments.. And numerous formal and informal fallacies.. Along with circulation of reasoning..which muddies the waters in terms of understand intent and purpose...

I prefer to discuss "play", because it is the opposite of "distress".
Distresses can derail thread discussions. these are not antonyms! These are not equal in opposition. Nor does one need either to be opposite of one another.. A child can play and still be in distress and a person in distress can utilize play while still feeling distress! Also, how does distress derail this discussion? Please expand!


I never specified bad discipline or good discipline, I was hoping to explore/discuss both and every other angle possible.
That being said, I stick to my personal experiences/opinions on the topic of discipline, in general.
Yes, you are very correct in that you have never specified either in your discussion.. However you haven't differentiated them either.. Comments have been generalized in only one meaning.. So yes, this is in fact true.


I think this has been a great discussion so far about discipline.
That is partly why I started this thread.P
I concur this entire thread has been very interesting and fun to be s part of, and also, I enjoy informative and healthy fun debates. I like where this thread is going and I believe there is s lot of opinion and reasoning here to gain new perspective on..

Socialjaxs
I am sorry, I have barely had time to know you at all, in the month you have been a member.P I've been here for s few months, now, but what would you be interested to know? I'm pretty straight forward and would be happy to offer any information you need!

What type of discipline would it be, when a teacher tapes a hyperreactive child's head to a desk?
When I was a student, I personally witnessed a teacher sit on hyperreactive young teen for a very long time.
What mode of discipline would that be called?
P

Neither of those is discipline in my opinion. I'd call both abuse.
:goodpost::thankyou::yes: yup this is considered abuse and in no way would I say this is a positive form of disciple.. This is abuse of power and horrible! This is disturbing forms of abuse athority figures should never due.. I'm sorry you have to witness such a cruel and horrible act..but this in my eyes does not mean the same as discipline,, This is a cruel form of punishment

Socaljaxs
11-24-15, 04:18 AM
What type of discipline would it be, when a teacher tapes a hyperreactive child's head to a desk? When I was a student, I personally witnessed a teacher sit on hyperreactive young teen for a very long time.
What mode of discipline would that be called?


What abou YOU?
what do you view this above as?
Do you consider this discipline and punishment?
Is it considered positive or a negative form of both , or either one if different?... Or would you classify it, on an entirely different level?
Or if a form of punishment, what type of punishment? Or neither?


like others here, have mentioned, and answered when we are asked questions in regard to healthy discipline example and what is considered in my country at least illegal and excessive And abusive responses to hyper children. these chidren and even the perpetrator of these horrid actions may even believe they are allowing themselves to falsely believing and excusing their behaviors as teaching and disciplining a child, however THIS it is not a healthy or even in my country a legal form of discipline and punishment. And such actions have severe consequences to these abusive acts..

But, here is a question for you, how would a child with a healthy attachment to the parents and suffer from ADHD and thus even with a healthy attachment get this form of abuse, fix itself. With the logic I believe I'm interpreting how you have responded, thus far, I trying to understand how healthy attachment parenting yet horrible outside influences will contribute ocersll, With this type of parenting technique.. A few responses explain that healthy attachment relationships will not have to deal .. Yet horrible things do happen. So I'm trying to find OUT how you coralate these actions with this form of attachment..

sarahsweets
11-24-15, 05:04 AM
Its really hard to have a discussion about things when the orgional question is stated and no real definition or explaination is given. Its sort of like I have to wing it when it comes to intentions.

mildadhd
11-24-15, 09:40 AM
Its really hard to have a discussion about things when the orgional question is stated and no real definition or explaination is given. Its sort of like I have to wing it when it comes to intentions.

There is a few posts discussing dictionary definitions of discipline in this thread.





P

Stevuke79
11-24-15, 09:49 AM
Its really hard to have a discussion about things when the orgional question is stated and no real definition or explaination is given. Its sort of like I have to wing it when it comes to intentions.
There is a few posts discussing dictionary definitions of discipline in this thread.
P

Peripheral, Sarah is referring to the fact that you change and invent definitions at will. For instance:

1. Discipline = suppression. Attachment = expression.
2. Play is the opposite of distress
3. Discipline = harsh and insensitive

mildadhd
11-24-15, 10:01 PM
Peripheral, Sarah is referring to the fact that you change and invent definitions at will. For instance:

1. Discipline = suppression. Attachment = expression.
2. Play is the opposite of distress
3. Discipline = harsh and insensitive

I did say #1 and #2

I did not say "harsh and insensitive"

I understand #3 to be your opinion of my opinion.

Example, I never used the words harsh and insensitive at any time in this thread.

I appreciate your opinion but please quote me accurately, for clarity.

My opinion seem to be unorthodox to some, so I want to be quoted accurately, for accuracy.





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mildadhd
11-24-15, 10:27 PM
Without a mutually agreed upon definition of discipline, you cannot have an effective conversation about it.

To me, discipline means to teach.

You do not harm in order to teach proper behavior. Harming teaches improper behavior.

To me, using force means to punish. I do not view discipline and punishment as the same thing, although technically, and going by the dictionary, they can be viewed as the same.

Forcing a young child to hold your hand when crossing a parking lot is not a matter of discipline, or punishment. It is a matter of safety and protection.

It's like when a parent forces their child to get stitches for a bad wound, or forces them to sit in a car seat. Sure, some kids are going to have a REAL hard time with either, but parents have a responsibilty to keep their children safe when they are too young to make those decisions for themselves.

I do not view safety as teaching proper behavior. To me, they are 2 very different things.

Exactly.

To me, discipline has always meant to teach. However, there IS a perfectly legitimate definition of "discipline" as punitive.

To really discuss discipline, there needs to be clarification of the definition, or everyone is talking about different things!

Thanks

I wonder how we could solve this problem?

It's just like the term "stress".

The term "stress" by itself does not specify , if it is "good stress" or "bad stress", etc.

I wonder if there is a grammatical category/explanation for such words?

I have found using the terms "distress" to represent "bad stress", and, "eustress" to represent "good stress", works perfectly well.

I find "attachement" represents "good discipline", I haven't specifically decided what represents "bad discipline" yet.

Ideas appreciated.

I will never use the terms "stress" or discipline" again.

P