View Full Version : ADHD and Clumsiness: current science.


Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 09:31 PM
http://behavioralandbrainfunctions.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-9081-5-22#CR41

Impairments to executive function are central to the dysfunction in ADHD.

It is understood that clumsiness directly compromises executive function and working memory, but the nature of the definition of ADHD actually obscures the relationship between ADHD and coordination.

Current understandings of the role of subcortical structures in cognitive processes are advanced enough to understand that there is a clear issue in cerebellar and vestibular function in ADHD, and that cerebellar and vestibular dysfunction is also a driver of coordination problems (dyspraxia) and oculomotor problems (associated with effortful reading and, sometimes dyslexia).

There is a huge amount of good material in this study.

The conclusion of the study is clear cut:

Our hypothesis that there is a discriminative power of the MFNU between boys aged 812 years with ADHD (HKD F90.0) and controls without ADHD was strongly supported by the test data across all subtests. Most of the ADHD-subjects achieved a marked to severe 'Total score'. While there were subjects in the control group who showed problems on some of the subtests, the problems appeared on fewer subtests and with less severity than in children in the ADHD group.


We found that motor problems are present in a higher percentage in the ADHD group than the around 50% reported in previous studies



When the 'moderate problems' and 'severe' scores (score 1 and 2) were combined, the ADHD group presented problems within a range of 80% ('Catch ball' and 'Walking') to 96% ('Dynamic balance, 1 leg' and 'Diadochokinesis, left'). The control group typically presented few, if any severe problems.


The paper also provides clear links to studies supporting balance dysfunction in ADHD

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 09:34 PM
Other positives in the study-

Methylphenidate improves co-ordination while it is in our system, and this effect persists even after years of use.

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 09:36 PM
Now- for limitations-
The underlying issues with balance are mentioned here- but the paper does not go far enough in tying the balance and co-ordination together here.

The real problem is that lack of balance causes our system to tighten up- so we do not fall over.

In our work we have almost invariably observed that children with ADHD display a high muscle tone in the gross movement muscles, especially the m. Sacrospinalis, m. Latissimus dorsi and in m. Psoas major
That central muscle tension really destabilises both gross motor and fine motor control-- and it often leaves you feeling tired, wrecks your sleep and leaves you feeling too dull and stiff to get up in the morning.


The role of disturbed input sensory information from tight upper neck muscles (especially the asymmetrically tight neck muscles associated with malalignment between the joints between the skull and the first three vertebrae in the neck) is not acknowledged.

It is my experience that failure to attend to the neck muscle tension and the subsequent broader muscle tension problems is the barrier that prevents us from improving our co-ordination.

It is demonstrable that ongoing training to improve balance and co-ordination does work if we can stick to it.
From my perspective the slow and precise internal martial arts are the best way to go.
They are harder to do, but they do produce cumulative improvements, and do not need all that much time.

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 09:53 PM
So- the proof regarding the role of neck muscle fatigue in distorting proprioception and balance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305577/


Postural and visual stability are dependent upon efficient and accurate central processing of visual, vestibular, and somatosensory afferent input1). This afferent input under- goes multimodal sensory integration in several areas of the brain and brainstem in order to provide efferent output to maintain postural equilibrium and oculomotor control. In- accurate sensory information from dysfunctional sensory end organs leads to a sensory mismatch, causing postural and/or visual instability.

For example, altered somatosensory input, particularly from the upper cervical spine structures, can disturb the vestibular system,

Moreover, evidence suggests that upper cervical muscle fatigue may be an important contributing factor to altered postural stability in people with neck pain because neck muscle fatigue has been shown to modify the discharge of sensory receptors in neck muscles and affect proprioception

These findings suggest that normal eye movement is partially dependent upon accurate sensory input from the cervical spine13). There is also evidence to suggest that the cervical spine influences eye movements via the vestibular system14). Stimulation of the deep cervical spine mechanoreceptors has a measurable impact on the vestibulo-ocular reflex (VOR)


The results of this study suggest that there is a measurable interaction between neck proprioception and the VOR in subjects with normal vestibular function. Also, abnormal neck muscle proprioceptive signals may give rise to asymmetric functioning of the VOR and contribute to postural and visual instability.


Our findings are consistent with previous studies, which reported, that reduced proprioceptive acuity contributes to sensory mismatches and possibly an asymmetry of the VOR. This phenomenon is probably due to disturbances in the neural connections between the three sensory systems (somatosenory, vestibular, and vision) that can lead to mismatched sensory input, causing conflicts among all inputs from the different sensory systems).


All the references are in the original paper- which is open source- like all science should be.

Kunga Dorji
11-28-15, 10:05 PM
So now we can look at ADHD as a series of causal loops in which there is a feedback loop with muscle tension and poor posture being generated as a response to poor balance (The drivers here would be an increase in muscle tone in response to percieved instability, and a secondary postural deformity driven by the stress response (via the rubrospinal tracts).

The muscle tension will drive restlessness and will alternate with periods of loss of tone due to simple fatigue due to overtensioning of the muscles.

That muscle tension then impairs co- ordination (hence executive function and working memory) directly as the demand placed on the cerebellum to continually recalculate the force required for any movement to correct for shifts in muscle tone.

The muscle tension also generates distorted body position information as the posture adopted (head forwards) fatigues the suboccipital muscles and the sternocleidomastoids.

Then the brain has to cope with a sensory mismatch, leading to problems in spatial perception (losing things, getting lost, being unable to locate the sources of sounds).

The stress response worsens matters by dropping thresholds of sensory awareness and leading to sensory overload.

Finally, the impact of all this confusing information input into the CNS is a dysregulation of the autonomic system as an increasingly confused and fatigued brain continually readjust energy distribution settings (blood flow etc) to appropriately manage the currently percieved situation.

SB_UK
11-29-15, 06:56 AM
ADHD meds deactivate the distressed chronically aroused state.
Chronically aroused - muscles contracted.
Increased muscular tone - yes particularly in the back.

ADDers not in a happy place through incapacity to find reward in daily life.

Everything is a struggle - because there's no intrinsic reward in doing all of the 'things' that we're expected to do.

The need for reward can push us into extreme reward seeking in those 'things' which society encourages eg educational over-achievement, over working, over exercising ... ... but none of this rewards.

Just leaves us desiring more.

Where the goal is to overcome rather than feed society's mandate of being somebody by achieving dominion over (<- maniacal cackle) others.

ADDers are nice to the core - even if we don't actually realise it - and try (with societal convention on our back egging us on) to emulate Darth Vader on a bad day.

-*-

So how does one chill in a fiery Hell (all of our own making) on Earth ?

Look to the dog.
Walkies, healthy occasional nibbles, cuddles and a comfy kennel to sleep in.
Discard the rest

daveddd
11-29-15, 08:53 AM
"The muscle tension also generates distorted body position information as the posture adopted (head forwards) fatigues the suboccipital muscles and the sternocleidomastoids. "

im trying to follow , im not familiar with all the medical terms

im sorry if you said this differently already, but the posture altering tension

can that send faulty somatic signals to the brain, signals that would normally be produced by putting the body into a freeze response?

exampe-like if the posture was head down, eyes down stiff shoulders and back

could the body miseterpret that as shame , and produce shamneful thoughts to match?

SB_UK
11-29-15, 09:03 AM
http://behavioralandbrainfunctions.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-9081-5-22#CR41

Impairments to executive function are central to the dysfunction in ADHD.

It is understood that clumsiness directly compromises executive function and working memory, but the nature of the definition of ADHD actually obscures the relationship between ADHD and coordination.

Current understandings of the role of subcortical structures in cognitive processes are advanced enough to understand that there is a clear issue in cerebellar and vestibular function in ADHD, and that cerebellar and vestibular dysfunction is also a driver of coordination problems (dyspraxia) and oculomotor problems (associated with effortful reading and, sometimes dyslexia).

There is a huge amount of good material in this study.

The conclusion of the study is clear cut:



The paper also provides clear links to studies supporting balance dysfunction in ADHD

"The muscle tension also generates distorted body position information as the posture adopted (head forwards) fatigues the suboccipital muscles and the sternocleidomastoids. "

im trying to follow , im not familiar with all the medical terms

im sorry if you said this differently already, but the posture altering tension

can that send faulty somatic signals to the brain, signals that would normally be produced by putting the body into a freeze response?

exampe-like if the posture was head down, eyes down stiff shoulders and back

could the body miseterpret that as shame , and produce shamneful thoughts to match?


Sounds good - just thinking that the last part might read imprisnment rather than shame - you know how success or freedom is often celebrated by an almighty upright stretch ie like this (http://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/jc/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAI8AAAAJDQ4NTY2MmEyLThkNWItNDE3Yy05Ym ZhLTkwN2VhNTNiMGM1Yw.jpg) - so the body curling into a ball (http://www.sarameekspt.com/assets/images/postural_change_sm.jpg)as the consequence of a life spent being beaten down.

Define beaten down - attending to tasks which do not result in reward.

What generates reward in the ADDer ? Simply stuff that's worthwhile from the perspective of good wholseome fun for the cumulated collective.

Every muscle group mentioned so far in this thread - very definitely stiff - on the verge of cramp.

Can't even turn my head when reversing in a car so :-) only ever travel forwards (much like evolution !!!)

-*-

So resignation to one's fate rather than shame ?

Giving up the will to live - which hastens death.

SB_UK
11-30-15, 09:53 AM
Lots of great info her

From KD previously

ADDer - highly sensitive meaning that we're picking up more information from somewhere

^^^ Information handling - must be something to do with co-ordination of affector and effector systems ie sensory and motor systems - which is what the cerebellum does

Cerebellum - must need 'training' to be able to handle information smoothly ie to articulate smoothly rather than jaggedly

Too much information - aaaarghhh! pain - we know that the nerve does not want to be chronically activated nor chronically inactive - there needs to be a middle ground between excess activity and inactivity where the nerve can live.
HSPs need reduced information immersion for our cerebellum to learn.

ADDer - often described as 'takes longer to learn better' - used this idea well before the delayed maturation hypothesis was formulated in ADDer.

-*-

What does all of this information point to ?

Physical and Cognitive development - learning (cerebellum) completely destroyed by driving a distress reaction in child.

-*-

How do we allow the child to learn without distress ?

I think what happens is that the child gets bored doing 'simple' tasks and progresses natually when they've become better - and so to have some method of self-directed increase in difficulty in physical and cognitive tasks.

So - if the child is playing at catching a ball fired out from an automatic tennis ball launcher - they can ramp up the speed as they consistently catch all balls on lower speeds.

If the child consistently spells all 3 letter words correctly - then onto 4.

If a child can answer all 2 figure additions in < 5 seconds - then set 4 seonds as their goal.

All automated systems where child defines the child's own rate of progress.

What's remarkable is that this is the mechanism of progression in (eg) my kid's swimming classes - but not in their formal education - completely screwy that children who aren't ready to progress are fed forward (to be devoured by the always hungry cookie cutter one size fits all Western education style conveyor belt monster).

And once they can read, write and add - to tell 'em to 'go have fun' - and that's all there is to it.

SB_UK
11-30-15, 11:54 AM
The final part'd be

no distress -> no fluctuating blood glucose levels -> shift to ketosis-style aerobic respiration pathway and oooo !! today's scientific story might as well read 'we do it to ourselves we really do'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12017112/Worlds-first-anti-ageing-drug-could-see-humans-live-to-120.html

"Scientists think the best candidate for an anti-ageing drug is metformin, the world’s most widely used diabetes drug which costs just 10p a day. Metformin increases the number of oxygen molecules released into a cell, which appears to boost robustness and longevity."
Glucose metabolism can be anaerobic and I'm on the verge of cramp in nearly every muscle group I trouble.

Scientists are jolly clever aren't they :-) !!! (haven't we been going on about that for 10 years now).

The best approach to combat diabetes has to be to eliminate starch, sugar and shift to vegan protein - all of which should do what metformin does ie combat glucose metabolism by shifting us into fat metabolism.

SB_UK
11-30-15, 12:23 PM
So ... ... ... it's just a world of distress which prevents proper 'learning'.

Distress understood from the perspective of not permitting an individual to travel at a pace which permits learning.

And learning (broad sense) referring to matching (articulating) sensory with motor skills ie achieving elegance (the cerbellum allows us to achieve co-ordination, synchrony, articulation, elegance) in the range of activities that we're predisposed towards.

Gross locomotor
Fine locomotor
Hearing/Speech
Reading/Writing <- uniquely human -> the ability to communicate a common model -> to live by a pattern of logic which ensures the best for one AND all.

Cerebellar learning - implicated in the range of activities where 'elegance' can be used to describe an individual's capacity.

Elegance in movement and ideas.

Kunga Dorji
11-30-15, 05:37 PM
"The muscle tension also generates distorted body position information as the posture adopted (head forwards) fatigues the suboccipital muscles and the sternocleidomastoids. "

im trying to follow , im not familiar with all the medical terms


Here's a good reference- this is worth knowing because these muscles are often painful and they can usually be self managed using trigger point release techniques and muscle energy techniques (another form of self massage to release tight muscles).
http://www.triggerpoints.net/muscle/sternocleidomastoid
http://www.triggerpoints.net/muscle/suboccipital-group

I should address this at greater length elsewhere.
The list of symptoms that can be caused by tight sternocleidomastoids is quite staggering (it is on the link)-- and you can literally self treat them.
Most doctors do not know this and this gap in our knowledge causes many wrong diagnoses and many unnecessary treatments.


I'm sorry if you said this differently already, but the posture altering tension

can that send faulty somatic signals to the brain, signals that would normally be produced by putting the body into a freeze response?

example -like if the posture was head down, eyes down stiff shoulders and back

could the body misinterpret that as shame , and produce shameful thoughts to match?

That is not the main point that I was getting at here-- though yes- that pathway can be one outcome.

The sorts of problem I am getting at here are much more basic and ground level:

The top of the neck is a very important point for controlling postural stability and gait stability- so-

1) Our brain is wired to keep our eyes pointing forward and level with each other- as we need to be looking ahead to scan for danger and opportunity-- a downcast gaze is a danger to survival in most situations.
Additionally having the head tilted greatly increases the complexity of the eye movements required to look around- ie scanning along the line to read this takes 3 muscles instead of one-- that sucks up working memory.

Look around at any ADHD people you know and observe how common head tilt is.

2)Our brain is wired to ensure a smooth gait with the head following as near as possible a straight line when we walk. If there is much side to side or up and down sway this makes it harder for our eyes to lock on to a target when we move.

3) Accurate head control and co- ordination of head movements and eye movements is of utmost importance for clear vision.

Consequently most of the receptors that pick up body sensation are in the muscles that feed into the second cervical nerve root- between the first and second vertebrae in the neck.

That area at the top of the spine is the area that will sway most if there are minor errors in gait, an it is where most of the rotation of our neck comes from.

It is now proven that fatigue in any of these muscles will distort the accuracy of the "Somatosensory" (body position) information available to the brain.
For reference a fatigued muscle is always tender and a tender muscle is never normal. Fatigued muscles produce referred pain but are not locally painful.

Three main information sets are fed into the brain to assemble the image of the world we see. Vision, Inner ear (vestibular)and somatosnsory. These are inputted from both sides of the body and are collated and cross referenced first in the brainstem in 2 nuclei - one on either side of the top of the brainstem. Both sides are then cross referenced.

This cross referencing is accurate enough to allow for precise movement (ie when a frog catches a fly with its tongue that is all brainstem action- no higher thinking. The same thing at professional grade tennis-- thinking would clst too much time- you would miss the ball.


So- lets look at a typical scenario I see every day.
ADHD individual with head tilt to the right driven by tense right suboccipital
and SCM muscles.

This person is receiving different information about the direction his head is pointing in from the somatosensory input on the left and the right.

It doesn't match what his eyes are telling him nor what his balance system is telling him.

To make matters worse this information degradation affects the balance system- which is more of a problem when there is any head movement - as the inner ear- eye reflex becomes unreliable. So keeping stable gaze when moving the head becomes harder.

Then, the faulty information fed into the cerebellum interferes with the ability to smoothly track and to stay locked on to the same target- especially in the oblique plane. This last bit is a real killer as the muscle tension drives a head tilt and means that oblique tracking is required when reading horizontally along a line and as observed- I see a resting head tilt in most ADHD people I see.

So- the inputted information from the left and right eye will be different very often.

The nett result-- lots of conflicts between inputted information- needing more processing power (working memory), more complex eye movements needing more working memory, and generalised muscle tension as a defence against falling over as our balance is dodgy. It is far harder to move a stiff body accurately than a loose one- so more effort, more conscious attention and more drain on working memory.

Working memory, of course is one of the key deficits found in neuropsychological tests in ADHD individuals.

Finally, these tense bodys of ours are always uncomfortable- which only increases restlessness and fidgetiness (which is classed as a form of hyperactivity) and they fatigue easily-- so- in class and in meetings we slouch and we fidget and the body language then upsets everyone else - who misinterprets it for disinterest or hostility.

Most of us are foolish enough to believe them and then we have a self esteem problem as well-- more wasted working memory!

Kunga Dorji
11-30-15, 05:39 PM
So ... ... ... it's just a world of distress which prevents proper 'learning'.

Distress understood from the perspective of not permitting an individual to travel at a pace which permits learning.

And learning (broad sense) referring to matching (articulating) sensory with motor skills ie achieving elegance (the cerbellum allows us to achieve co-ordination, synchrony, articulation, elegance) in the range of activities that we're predisposed towards.

Gross locomotor
Fine locomotor
Hearing/Speech
Reading/Writing <- uniquely human -> the ability to communicate a common model -> to live by a pattern of logic which ensures the best for one AND all.

Cerebellar learning - implicated in the range of activities where 'elegance' can be used to describe an individual's capacity.

Elegance in movement and ideas.

Yes- but the stress comes because our Western World view is so cognitively based that we have forgotten what lack of distress is.

Remember a professor is a person educated to live so entirely in his head, and so much in his left brain,that he has come to believe that his body exists for the sole purpose of getting his head to the next meeting!

daveddd
11-30-15, 06:52 PM
Here's a good reference- this is worth knowing because these muscles are often painful and they can usually be self managed using trigger point release techniques and muscle energy techniques (another form of self massage to release tight muscles).
http://www.triggerpoints.net/muscle/sternocleidomastoid
http://www.triggerpoints.net/muscle/suboccipital-group

I should address this at greater length elsewhere.
The list of symptoms that can be caused by tight sternocleidomastoids is quite staggering (it is on the link)-- and you can literally self treat them.
Most doctors do not know this and this gap in our knowledge causes many wrong diagnoses and many unnecessary treatments.



That is not the main point that I was getting at here-- though yes- that pathway can be one outcome.

The sorts of problem I am getting at here are much more basic and ground level:

The top of the neck is a very important point for controlling postural stability and gait stability- so-

1) Our brain is wired to keep our eyes pointing forward and level with each other- as we need to be looking ahead to scan for danger and opportunity-- a downcast gaze is a danger to survival in most situations.
Additionally having the head tilted greatly increases the complexity of the eye movements required to look around- ie scanning along the line to read this takes 3 muscles instead of one-- that sucks up working memory.

Look around at any ADHD people you know and observe how common head tilt is.

2)Our brain is wired to ensure a smooth gait with the head following as near as possible a straight line when we walk. If there is much side to side or up and down sway this makes it harder for our eyes to lock on to a target when we move.

3) Accurate head control and co- ordination of head movements and eye movements is of utmost importance for clear vision.

Consequently most of the receptors that pick up body sensation are in the muscles that feed into the second cervical nerve root- between the first and second vertebrae in the neck.

That area at the top of the spine is the area that will sway most if there are minor errors in gait, an it is where most of the rotation of our neck comes from.

It is now proven that fatigue in any of these muscles will distort the accuracy of the "Somatosensory" (body position) information available to the brain.
For reference a fatigued muscle is always tender and a tender muscle is never normal. Fatigued muscles produce referred pain but are not locally painful.

Three main information sets are fed into the brain to assemble the image of the world we see. Vision, Inner ear (vestibular)and somatosnsory. These are inputted from both sides of the body and are collated and cross referenced first in the brainstem in 2 nuclei - one on either side of the top of the brainstem. Both sides are then cross referenced.

This cross referencing is accurate enough to allow for precise movement (ie when a frog catches a fly with its tongue that is all brainstem action- no higher thinking. The same thing at professional grade tennis-- thinking would clst too much time- you would miss the ball.


So- lets look at a typical scenario I see every day.
ADHD individual with head tilt to the right driven by tense right suboccipital
and SCM muscles.

This person is receiving different information about the direction his head is pointing in from the somatosensory input on the left and the right.

It doesn't match what his eyes are telling him nor what his balance system is telling him.

To make matters worse this information degradation affects the balance system- which is more of a problem when there is any head movement - as the inner ear- eye reflex becomes unreliable. So keeping stable gaze when moving the head becomes harder.

Then, the faulty information fed into the cerebellum interferes with the ability to smoothly track and to stay locked on to the same target- especially in the oblique plane. This last bit is a real killer as the muscle tension drives a head tilt and means that oblique tracking is required when reading horizontally along a line and as observed- I see a resting head tilt in most ADHD people I see.

So- the inputted information from the left and right eye will be different very often.

The nett result-- lots of conflicts between inputted information- needing more processing power (working memory), more complex eye movements needing more working memory, and generalised muscle tension as a defence against falling over as our balance is dodgy. It is far harder to move a stiff body accurately than a loose one- so more effort, more conscious attention and more drain on working memory.

Working memory, of course is one of the key deficits found in neuropsychological tests in ADHD individuals.

Finally, these tense bodys of ours are always uncomfortable- which only increases restlessness and fidgetiness (which is classed as a form of hyperactivity) and they fatigue easily-- so- in class and in meetings we slouch and we fidget and the body language then upsets everyone else - who misinterprets it for disinterest or hostility.

Most of us are foolish enough to believe them and then we have a self esteem problem as well-- more wasted working memory!

my dad has a similar type of ADHD i do, he has an ataxic gait , that doctors are clueless about. multiple vascular surgeries with no improvement

they dont know, started in his early 50s he is 64 now, he can walk but its tough

his head is always tilted right, with neck pain, also neuropathy in extremities

sounds like a match

Kunga Dorji
11-30-15, 06:56 PM
Sounds good - just thinking that the last part might read imprisnment rather than shame - you know how success or freedom is often celebrated by an almighty upright stretch ie like this (http://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/jc/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAI8AAAAJDQ4NTY2MmEyLThkNWItNDE3Yy05Ym ZhLTkwN2VhNTNiMGM1Yw.jpg) - so the body curling into a ball (http://www.sarameekspt.com/assets/images/postural_change_sm.jpg)as the consequence of a life spent being beaten down.

Define beaten down - attending to tasks which do not result in reward.

What generates reward in the ADDer ? Simply stuff that's worthwhile from the perspective of good wholseome fun for the cumulated collective.

Every muscle group mentioned so far in this thread - very definitely stiff - on the verge of cramp.

Can't even turn my head when reversing in a car so :-) only ever travel forwards (much like evolution !!!)

-*-

So resignation to one's fate rather than shame ?

Giving up the will to live - which hastens death.

The big point though is that much of the muscle stiffness is driven by poor balance, and more is driven by secondary compensatory movements and postures adopted to get around the first problem.

However the sensory input driven by that posture does not generate any positivity and skews ones perception towards the negative.

It does not help that one's competence is reduced and this produces embarrassing results, and that one is misinterpreted.

However the prime drivers are neurophysiological - not psychological.

Donny997
01-09-16, 02:21 PM
This is over my head but I understand some of what you guys are saying. I appreciate the info and will return to this thread as I learn more about this. (And I hope my thoughts on this are not too pedestrian, but I really relate to all this).

It would explain my poor posture and constant need for chiropractic care, massage etc. You would not believe the neck tension I have; I believe this causes much of my fidgeting and moving while seated. I always wondered where this RIDICULOUS neck and body tension came from - I knew obviously it was stress, but the brain's perceived balance problems and the its attempt at correction adds another dimension of understanding. I feel like when I'm walking I almost have to concentrate on moving straight and staying upright. This taxes my brain unnecessarily, whereas I feel like NTs don't have to "think" about this things.

Talk about cerebellar problems. When I first tried ADHD medication, the first things I noticed were very noticeably improved balance, vision, visual-spatial perception (I literally felt like I was seeing in more 3D and was more competent in physical space) and fine-motor skills (I'm still amazed when the meds are working right how quickly I can manipulate small objects whereas before I struggled so much!) This effect ALONE is worth staying on medication.

One question.. About the vestibular dysfunction, could this explain why I get so incredibly dizzy after quickly moving my head side to side? I've asked NTs to do this and they get a little dizzy but my reaction is so much more pronounced. I did this one time and it made me very woozy. In previous retail jobs when I've had to plastic wrap a skid by the end I would feel so dizzy I had to sit down and let the dizziness settle; yet my colleagues did this routinely without issues.

What's frustrating is I will never get diagnosed with vertigo for these more minor issues, but they affect my confidence about moving competently throughout the world, if that makes sense lol.

Kunga Dorji
01-10-16, 03:10 PM
This is over my head but I understand some of what you guys are saying. I appreciate the info and will return to this thread as I learn more about this. (And I hope my thoughts on this are not too pedestrian, but I really relate to all this).

It would explain my poor posture and constant need for chiropractic care, massage etc. You would not believe the neck tension I have; I believe this causes much of my fidgeting and moving while seated. I always wondered where this RIDICULOUS neck and body tension came from - I knew obviously it was stress, but the brain's perceived balance problems and the its attempt at correction adds another dimension of understanding. I feel like when I'm walking I almost have to concentrate on moving straight and staying upright. This taxes my brain unnecessarily, whereas I feel like NTs don't have to "think" about this things.

Talk about cerebellar problems. When I first tried ADHD medication, the first things I noticed were very noticeably improved balance, vision, visual-spatial perception (I literally felt like I was seeing in more 3D and was more competent in physical space) and fine-motor skills (I'm still amazed when the meds are working right how quickly I can manipulate small objects whereas before I struggled so much!) This effect ALONE is worth staying on medication.

The chiros who are working at the cutting edge are developing techniques to specifically diagnose and treat the vestibular and cerebellar problems- and they work well- though they take some time and need you do be organised enough to do their exercises up to five times a day.


One question.. About the vestibular dysfunction, could this explain why I get so incredibly dizzy after quickly moving my head side to side?

Yes- though it can be more subtle than that.
Ie I have found that it is only specific combinations of head and eye movements that have been problematic for me- ie looking to the left to check my side mirror when driving, or looking to the left and back to complete one move in the tai chi that i am doing.


What's frustrating is I will never get diagnosed with vertigo for these more minor issues, but they affect my confidence about moving competently throughout the world, if that makes sense lol.

That is because to call it vertigo would be to mislabel it.
Vertigo is a very specific medically defined word with a precise meaning. It refers to a spinning sensation. It is usually very abrupt and extreme and it is often so abrupt in onset that people fall to the ground with it.

The common use of the word "vertigo" is not correct usage, so if you were labelled as having it you would be subject to years of treatments that are useless because they would be aimed at the wrong problem.

Donny997
01-10-16, 08:16 PM
The chiros who are working at the cutting edge are developing techniques to specifically diagnose and treat the vestibular and cerebellar problems- and they work well- though they take some time and need you do be organised enough to do their exercises up to five times a day.

Could you provide some resources? I'd love to check that out. I do find regular adjustments help a little. I have issues in the C1 - C3 I think.


The common use of the word "vertigo" is not correct usage, so if you were labelled as having it you would be subject to years of treatments that are useless because they would be aimed at the wrong problem.

I knew it wasn't technically vertigo but I had no other way of conceptualizing my experience, especially before I was diagnosed. I had no idea why I was like that. Looking in side mirrors is a subtle issue for me too. Thanks again for all the great info :).

Mantaray14
02-19-16, 07:00 PM
This post is more of a brain fart than a question or comment...but here goes

I am someone who was always somewhat clumsy even though I did start to participate in some recreational sports as I got older (easy stuff like swimming, paddleball, volleyball etc). I find it is very difficult to "improve my game" so to speak, anywhere nearly as fast as others and feel as if I was born with two left feet! I do find I excel (better than others) in things like yoga and keeping perfect form and posture in a fitness class. But any "game" I go to pieces, bad posture, execution, everything. I also observe this in my kid, who is basically the spitting image of me and takes karate and hockey (way behind the other kids, poor posture, motor skills etc.)

I guess what got me wondering was there are a few high profile athletes with ADHD (besides the swimmer, I've read about an olympic karate guy and a hockey guy - the athletes always get the attention neuro-tyical or otherwise). Do you think they overcame these deficiencies, or did not inherit those particular ADHD traits (poor motor skills)?