View Full Version : Controversial thinking without rules


Gilthranon
12-28-15, 02:32 AM
Do you seriously appreciate thinking without moral restraint ? In order to get to complexer philosophies I believe detachment from any moral boundaries is necessary to understand deeper meanings on individual quality as many sensitive subjects as so problematically deeply rooted in our society that/where any deviation is expected to be intensively repulsive to even just consider thinking about.

Or - freedom of thought is not so much encouraged (on public levels)

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 02:41 AM
Thinking without moral restraint is at best idle meandering, and at worst a form of evil.

Gilthranon
12-28-15, 02:47 AM
That's enough optimism I think ...
Nothing is, everything is a point of view. Either way we must be quiet different people then.

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 03:36 AM
It's nice to say "nothing is, everything is a point of view". It seems like it should somehow be true. But there are these tiny problems called "reality" and "humanity" that inconveniently get in the way of that idea. Right and wrong do exist. Reality does exist. They may not be exactly as our great-grandfathers envisioned them, but they don't stop existing just because our great-grandfathers got some details wrong.

stef
12-28-15, 03:39 AM
I was brought uo with many morals and. I think reflecting in a detached way about society, etc, is incredibly liberating.

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 04:09 AM
I was brought uo with many morals and. I think reflecting in a detached way about society, etc, is incredibly liberating.
Yes, certainly it is. And it's a good idea. Considering the things we've been taught, and perhaps throwing away some of them because they're no longer useful, is important.

But it's a long, long way to go from what you're saying to throwing out morality.

Rule of thumb: If you had to be taught it, it isn't part of morals.

We all (except those with undeveloped minds) know, without having to be taught, that murder and torture and a number of other things are wrong. We don't have to struggle to remember what we were told about harming other people - it's universally known. Morals are internal and not something we learn. People without morals are universally recognized as defective, and for good reason.

BUT keep in mind that all of this has no bearing at all on what we are taught about manners and rules and customs and politeness. Those are not morals, and deciding to change your mind about some of them - or even to just live without them - is not necessarily a bad thing.

stef
12-28-15, 04:49 AM
I meant looking farther beyond manners, rules and customs, though - however my interpretation of "morality" is already automatically ruling out torture and cruelty.

Fuzzy12
12-28-15, 05:26 AM
I'm not sure you can separate the two. I agree that thinking should not be restricted and constrained by moral taboos. For instance you should not have to stop thinking about or analysing a subject because the general moral consensus deems it's an evil, amoral topic. Or you shouldn't have to reason by taking certain morals as fundamental truths.

However, I think, thinking without considering the moral aspects of something (and by that I mean the consequences of anything on others ) is incomplete thinking. Deliberately leaving out moral consequences restricts and constrains your thinking as much as forcing yourself to think only along certain lines does. I believe that ideally thinking should be comprehensive. And I guess, every time you think about something it's important to first examine and question the rules, assumptions and biases that govern your thinking.

Fuzzy12
12-28-15, 05:29 AM
Yes, certainly it is. And it's a good idea. Considering the things we've been taught, and perhaps throwing away some of them because they're no longer useful, is important.

But it's a long, long way to go from what you're saying to throwing out morality.

Rule of thumb: If you had to be taught it, it isn't part of morals.

We all (except those with undeveloped minds) know, without having to be taught, that murder and torture and a number of other things are wrong. We don't have to struggle to remember what we were told about harming other people - it's universally known. Morals are internal and not something we learn. People without morals are universally recognized as defective, and for good reason.

BUT keep in mind that all of this has no bearing at all on what we are taught about manners and rules and customs and politeness. Those are not morals, and deciding to change your mind about some of them - or even to just live without them - is not necessarily a bad thing.

I agree that there is no place for murder or torture but I'm not sure who you mean by 'we all'. There are plenty of people who are not fundamentally against murder and torture and believe that they are necessary and justifiable ..for who knows what... Some elusive greater good.

Not everyone who advocates murder or torture is universally recognised as defective. Many of them are highly respected, often for the very views that I would find cruel and inhumane. I guess a lot depends on how you spin murder and torture but unfortunately, no, there is no universal consensus against them.

(And of course my views could be wrong as well. Maybe there are situations in which murder or torture are justified. )

And this might be because people don't think enough..or don't allow themselves to think outside the lines defined by their society...outside the confines of an artificially created so-called morality that has been impressed on them by their culture or maybe it's because there is no absolute right or wrong, no fundamental good and evil..because everything is just relative.

Fuzzy12
12-28-15, 05:50 AM
That's enough optimism I think ...
Nothing is, everything is a point of view. Either way we must be quiet different people then.

I agree with this, mainly because we don't know truly 'what is'. There might just be one true reality (or there might not) but as long as you don't know (and you don't) everything is just a point of view.

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 04:33 PM
I agree with this, mainly because we don't know truly 'what is'. There might just be one true reality (or there might not) but as long as you don't know (and you don't) everything is just a point of view.
So... being against murder is "just a point of view" that someone else may legitimately disagree with?

SB_UK
12-28-15, 04:58 PM
if we think without moral restraint then we'll blimmin' go off on strange tangents - ie I wonder how many cats will cross the road before a rat catches an impromptu ride on a passing truck to Buckingham Palace ? Imagine the number of thoughts one might have if one were not required to have any higher point to one's thinking - and so 'morality' prevents us from thinking stupid thoughts - but sadly there's ever so much stupid thinking which goes on - as when you've a phd in dumb stuff - you are generally going to fly the dumbo flag for the rest of your career.
Immoral is pointless also - doesn't have to be overtly psychopathic ie you don't have to embrace the dark side to think dark immoral thoughts- but as somebody once said to me - if you were to spend the infectious disease research budgets on making poor communities sustainable - you wouldn't end up having the problem that the researchers are trying to find a cure for - so immorality can be indirectly psychopathic - probably just degrees of separation.

SB_UK
12-28-15, 05:05 PM
ps good point - all thought is required (is intended) to be moral in nature - but it's not until the entire species clarifies its mind that we'll be able to do 'thinking' right.

Fuzzy12
12-28-15, 05:46 PM
So... being against murder is "just a point of view" that someone else may legitimately disagree with?

Yes. What's more is that what is considered as murder is a point of view. To give you a (hopefully) non - political, addf guidelines friendly, even if extreme point of view: we are not all vegetarians, are we?

Hathor
12-28-15, 06:36 PM
So... being against murder is "just a point of view" that someone else may legitimately disagree with?

If somebody violent was stalking bella and your only way to stop them was murder* what would you do?

* for example they may be stronger than you but you could stop them with a gun or a blow sneaky to the head, but not stop them in a fair fight/.

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 06:44 PM
If somebody violent was stalking bella and your only way to stop them was murder* what would you do?

* for example they may be stronger than you but you could stop them with a gun or a blow sneaky to the head, but not stop them in a fair fight/.
Good post and good example. Of course you know the answer. Of course your question is a good one. That's what I've been trying to get at, because the OP thinks maybe you don't have a point, that maybe he can ignore all this stuff.

My point is that morality is necessary. The OP is wondering if we can do without it. So, for example, the OP is wondering about the validity of his seriously considering things like indiscriminately shooting anyone who happens to come near him, or other things that are obviously immoral.

Fuzzy12
12-28-15, 06:49 PM
Do you seriously appreciate thinking without moral restraint ? In order to get to complexer philosophies I believe detachment from any moral boundaries is necessary to understand deeper meanings on individual quality as many sensitive subjects as so problematically deeply rooted in our society that/where any deviation is expected to be intensively repulsive to even just consider thinking about.

Or - freedom of thought is not so much encouraged (on public levels)

I could be wrong but I think you misunderstood the OP. Based on the bolded bit in the OP I think he's talking about subjects that many people don't even want you to think about because it goes against their specific brand of morality.

As I said I do agree that thinking about a subject without possible consequences to others is incomplete thinking.

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 06:52 PM
I could be wrong but I think you misunderstood the OP. Based on the bolded bit in the OP I think he's talking about subjects that many people don't even want you to think about because it goes against their specific brand of morality.

As I said I do agree that thinking about a subject without possible consequences to others is incomplete thinking.
I don't "buy" the mismatch between the OP's somewhat innocent-sounding tone and its very serious content. I'm taking it that he means exactly what he says about dropping morality.

Fuzzy12
12-28-15, 06:55 PM
I don't "buy" the mismatch between the OP's somewhat innocent-sounding tone and its very serious content. I'm taking it that he means exactly what he says about dropping morality.

Fine if that''s what tickles your fancy.

Hathor
12-28-15, 06:56 PM
OP is online so I hope he drops in to elaborate.

Hathor
12-28-15, 09:06 PM
have these posts been deleted?

http://www.addforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3266090&photoplog_searchinfo=1&photoplog_searchquery=deviation

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 09:21 PM
I think some posters are missing my point.

I think the kind of moral arguments raised - what does "murder" really mean; are there situations where murder might be justified; is all killing murder; if killing a person is murder, then is killing another species also murder; does that species have to be sentient; etc etc - are all valid. I agree that they need to be thought about and discussed.

I think the OP's point is his desire to throw all such talk of moral issues out the window, all of it to be replaced with "everyone just do whatever you like".

Socaljaxs
12-28-15, 09:26 PM
I think some posters are missing my point.

I think the kind of moral arguments raised - what does "murder" really mean; are there situations where murder might be justified; is all killing murder; if killing a person is murder, then is killing another species also murder; does that species have to be sentient; etc etc - are all valid. I agree that they need to be thought about and discussed.

I think the OP's point is his desire to throw all such talk of moral issues out the window, all of it to be replaced with "everyone just do whatever you like".

What is your point then?

You said we all should know what is or isn't considered morally wrong and we can't be taught morals. But who really dictates what is or isn't considered morally right or wrong? No one and everyone society does.. We don't know what or even if we will be judged at death that is all based on your personal beliefs you were raised with dictate that and it will deviate from religion to religion.

And for many throwing what was taught especially if one was raised under a strict code of morality could very easily live a happier and freer life with out all the rules that deem them morally correct or not.. It's really is to broad of an issue to really have an agree or disagree with as to what this is or isn't.. It's all interpretation at this point and a lot of what if's

Socaljaxs
12-28-15, 09:43 PM
Yes, certainly it is. And it's a good idea. Considering the things we've been taught, and perhaps throwing away some of them because they're no longer useful, is important.

But it's a long, long way to go from what you're saying to throwing out morality.

Rule of thumb: If you had to be taught it, it isn't part of morals.

We all (except those with undeveloped minds) know, without having to be taught, that murder and torture and a number of other things are wrong. We don't have to struggle to remember what we were told about harming other people - it's universally known. Morals are internal and not something we learn. People without morals are universally recognized as defective, and for good reason.

BUT keep in mind that all of this has no bearing at all on what we are taught about manners and rules and customs and politeness. Those are not morals, and deciding to change your mind about some of them - or even to just live without them - is not necessarily a bad thing.

Also, there is a big difference between thinking and doing.

I'm assuming you know the song, die gedanken sind frei.

Fuzzy makes a great point. There is a difference and it's a big one..I can want to go and eat an entire pizza however I make a veggie stirfy instead because it is better for my health. Wanting and doing are not the same thing

dvdnvwls
12-28-15, 11:23 PM
What is your point then?

That morality is an inescapable part of being human, and that setting it aside isn't a valid option. Discussing what it means, arguing about aspects of it, trying to find answers to difficult situations, disagreeing about some things - all legitimate. Setting morality aside entirely - not an option. That's my point.

BellaVita
12-28-15, 11:26 PM
I honestly don't know how to set my morality aside...it is such an ingrained part of who I am I do not know how to think about things without it. :scratch:

(Not that I am SO moral and everyone else isn't - this isn't supposed to come off as "holier than thou" or anything - just explaining my brain processes)

Like, I can't separate it from myself.

SB_UK
12-29-15, 03:39 PM
The important point then - that pure morality (wisdom structure of mind -> enforced moral consistency -> enforced logical consistency with individual and therefore collective [pan-Universal ecosystem-wide] wellbeing) is the definition of intelligence.

Not putting boxes in order on shelves in warehouses on the dark side of the moon.

Or as a wise medical geneticist once said - wait till the movie comes out on DVD and then don't rent it.

Gilthranon
12-29-15, 05:33 PM
On the topic : of course I hate morals, I think on my own. I think murder happens for million reasons, as does every action.

I reply when I can or feel like going online, might not be always. I don't like mixing rational philosophy with personal judgement, that's not rational in my eyes.

namazu
12-29-15, 06:59 PM
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