View Full Version : feels sad, when..


mildadhd
01-21-16, 11:29 PM
The caregiver feels sad, when the infant feels sad. The infant feels sad, when the caregiver feels sad.

dvdnvwls
01-21-16, 11:33 PM
I've seen a lot of situations where this doesn't seem to be true.

What are you getting at here?

mildadhd
01-22-16, 12:37 AM
I've seen a lot of situations where this doesn't seem to be true.

I can't think of any.

Socaljaxs
01-22-16, 01:08 AM
I can't think of any.

Sorry but don't believe this true of all cases at all! You may not know of people who seen and witness this but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't true...

I've witness it many times. Sorry, but unless there is more of a topic, I'm kinda confused to why this is posted

mildadhd
01-22-16, 01:39 AM
Understanding the emotional relationship between caregiver and infant, infant and caregiver is a general parenting issue. As a caregiver, I can't think of any reasons to disagree. Can you?

Socaljaxs
01-22-16, 02:03 AM
The caregiver feels sad, when the infant feels sad. The infant feels sad, when the caregiver feels sad.

Understanding the emotional relationship between caregiver and infant, infant and caregiver is a general parenting issue. As a caregiver, I can't think of any reasons to disagree. Can you?


Any reason why you couldn't just post this part instead as the original question first? The first one makes little to no sense and the second one offers a tad bit more of understanding to what you want to discuss?

As to disagree, well yes I do disagree because it's still too broad and from what I am understanding by the limited info .. Of understanding emotional relationships and I'm assuming based on first one about when ones sad the others sad.l. But the statement is too broad and too general to be able to really clarify s yes/no..l but I think wishful thinking of being equal in feeling is a nice idea however realty shows that when one is sad the other may not be.

Of this is involved in the style of parenting you choose to raise your child in. This is the ideology of how one wants the comfort and security to be. But it's not always obtainable.

mildadhd
01-22-16, 02:13 AM
I can't think of any examples contrary to the OP statement. Examples contrary to the OP statement for learning purposes would be appreciated.

Socaljaxs
01-22-16, 02:24 AM
The caregiver feels sad, when the infant feels sad. The infant feels sad, when the caregiver feels sad.

I can't think of any examples contrary to the OP statement. Examples for learning purposes would be appreciated.

Thank you for elaborating.. For an infant we are speaking of age 1 month to 2ish right?

My moms funeral my sister and her husband and I and the children's grandparents are sad... The child 9 months old, isn't sad, she senses something but her behavior isn't that of sad. She is always content and rarely cries and is a very easy baby. Sleeps and only cries if he gets hurt or if she is hungry... She did not recipicate sad.. Also, older son, see people are sad doesn't know about death or greiving means, he's eating and sneaking cake at the service...

Different family, the son is 8 months old the oldest son is almost 2 the older one tackles the little one. The caregiver comfort and feels bad the child got scared or rocked, but they are sad in the same way the younger one is.

Two different family two different situations. Feelings are acknowledged but the grief of the caregiver is not dependant in the child's..

Unless you are throwing another actual discussion in this mix. Hence why I say while feeling are acknowledged it is not empathely recipicated

I don't think a child at this age can understand it well enough to empathize types of "sadness" they can sympathize yes, but I don't think they can grieve alongside the caregiver. Plus what a child at that age may be sad about, isn't nessasarly no that the child doesn't have very real feelings. But a child can be sad they have to take a nap, but the consequences of not getting that nap make it less likely the caregiver will recipicste sad empathy when it's in the child best interest for the nap. Or if a child has allergies and safety reasons for the chad not to eat something. They are to young to understand allergies so ther for its not easy to explain

dvdnvwls
01-22-16, 03:04 AM
I have seen lots of parents who are not sad every time their infant is sad. In fact, I think it would be exceedingly odd if they were sad every time. The examples are widespread and obvious. It's like asking for examples of grass growing on the ground.

Lunacie
01-22-16, 12:33 PM
Do we really know for sure what another person is feeling? Especially an infant who doesn't have any speech yet?

Funny, but I was just googling "blanket statements" for another thread, and then I see this one.

Socaljaxs
01-22-16, 02:01 PM
Sympathy~ for others including loved ones, caregivers, children,(to name a few) is very common... People, can feel within themselves, yet, separate and different emotions from the other person, in the form of heartache, happiness, joy, and pain and any emotions towards and for another person.....

However, what it appears you may be describing is empathy, as you are claiming( I'm assuming, however that you are claiming.. the structure of the sentence, itself leaves much to be interpreted...I mentioned earlier as well the sentences formed in this thread are not very clear to the readers in regards to intent of discussion , so like myself as a reader, I have to make some assumptions as to what you are saying:confused:) back to the point lol :thankyou::giggle:

Empathy- is much rarer for someone than sympathy. Very rare can a person feel true empathy for another. Empathize yes and have compassion for the other is not the same as true empathy... Regardless of how bonded or close they feel. Empathy has healing power yes, and people may stive an empathetic connection, but this is not easily obtained. Most children especially can not truly understand or comprehend the range of emotions another feels.

True Empathy: A Physical Sensation (by Claudia Gold) (http://www.printfriendly.com/print/?source=homepage&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychologytoday.com%2Fblog%2 Fchild-in-mind%2F201109%2Ftrue-empathy-physical-sensation)

Fuzzy12
01-22-16, 02:16 PM
Sympathy~ for others including loved ones, caregivers, children,(to name a few) is very common... People, can feel within themselves, yet, separate and different emotions from the other person, in the form of heartache, happiness, joy, and pain and any emotions towards and for another person.....

However, what it appears you may be describing is empathy, as you are claiming( I'm assuming, however that you are claiming.. the structure of the sentence, itself leaves much to be interpreted...I mentioned earlier as well the sentences formed in this thread are not very clear to the readers in regards to intent of discussion , so like myself as a reader, I have to make some assumptions as to what you are saying:confused:) back to the point lol :thankyou::giggle:

Empathy- is much rarer for someone than sympathy. Very rare can a person feel true empathy for another. Empathize yes and have compassion for the other is not the same as true empathy... Regardless of how bonded or close they feel. Empathy has healing power yes, and people may stive an empathetic connection, but this is not easily obtained. Most children especially can not truly understand or comprehend the range of emotions another feels.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/child-in-mind/201109/true-empathy-physical-sensation

Thankfully. I can imagine that it would be quite damaging if a child absorbed each and every emotion from its caregiver..and vice versa.

Having said that, some of it does trickle through to varying extents I guess and I guess it can leave a mark on the child depending on the duration, frequency, intensity, etc..and on the child.

Socaljaxs
01-22-16, 03:12 PM
Thankfully. I can imagine that it would be quite damaging if a child absorbed each and every emotion from its caregiver..and vice versa.

Having said that, some of it does trickle through to varying extents I guess and I guess it can leave a mark on the child depending on the duration, frequency, intensity, etc..and on the child.
:thankyou::goodpost: I 100% agree reading this I'm like wow if an infant truly could feel empath but not even understand truly what the emotions are,. The care caregivers emotions could be somewhat damaging. Like if the caregiver is anxious often, or even depressed or panicked or angry... and this occurs often the infant will be anxious and depressed and all the other emotions also. Plus, got a funny visual based on the show charmed lol, when phoebe and Pru both had episodes where they were was empathic, if the infant was feeling hungry/sad or teething and at the store with caregiver and starts crying or screaming all the sudden caregiver will mirror the same thing. Would be rather awkward.. Just saying

BellaVita
01-22-16, 04:54 PM
Sympathy~ for others including loved ones, caregivers, children,(to name a few) is very common... People, can feel within themselves, yet, separate and different emotions from the other person, in the form of heartache, happiness, joy, and pain and any emotions towards and for another person.....

However, what it appears you may be describing is empathy, as you are claiming( I'm assuming, however that you are claiming.. the structure of the sentence, itself leaves much to be interpreted...I mentioned earlier as well the sentences formed in this thread are not very clear to the readers in regards to intent of discussion , so like myself as a reader, I have to make some assumptions as to what you are saying:confused:) back to the point lol :thankyou::giggle:

Empathy- is much rarer for someone than sympathy. Very rare can a person feel true empathy for another. Empathize yes and have compassion for the other is not the same as true empathy... Regardless of how bonded or close they feel. Empathy has healing power yes, and people may stive an empathetic connection, but this is not easily obtained. Most children especially can not truly understand or comprehend the range of emotions another feels.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/child-in-mind/201109/true-empathy-physical-sensation

Is empathy really that rare?

I feel like my affective empathy is very high, I feel other people's emotions too much which puts me in overload and I can shutdown or meltdown.

It can also cause me pain.

I might not be able to label their emotions, but I can definitely feel their intensity and when that is combined with my own emotions, it is extremely overloading.

BellaVita
01-22-16, 05:10 PM
I am sorry, I am not sure what you are in disagreement about? You don't think understanding the emotional relationship between caregiver and infant, infant and caregiver is a general parenting issue?

Hello mildadhd. :)

I think some people might be confused by the OP, because they can't see the rest of the details that you are thinking that surrounds the question you asked.

I do this all the time. (In real life)

"The caregiver feels sad, when the infant feels sad. The infant feels sad, when the caregiver feels sad."

What are the details surrounding this statement? As in, what other thoughts were you thinking before you wrote that statement and what thoughts were you thinking after you wrote that statement?

I see you wrote, "Understanding the emotional relationship between caregiver and infant" - I'm guessing that is partly what you want to discuss?

I know this sounds weird, but sometimes (okay, almost all the time) I think that when I'm talking to a person (in person) they can see my thoughts, and so I leave out lots of information. I just feel like they always know my thoughts and that my information is constantly shared with them. (however, I can not at all see their thoughts) So I will tell a story or give an example and leave out important details and background information.

I wonder if some version of that might be happening here?

Anyway, I think this is an interesting topic.

Socaljaxs
01-22-16, 05:22 PM
Is empathy really that rare?

I feel like my affective empathy is very high, I feel other people's emotions too much which puts me in overload and I can shutdown or meltdown.

It can also cause me pain.

I might not be able to label their emotions, but I can definitely feel their intensity and when that is combined with my own emotions, it is extremely overloading.


I'm super intrigued by this.i want to study your brain :giggle: :eek::o . You also mention previously that you have Asperger's correct? Usually, isomeone with Asperger's would have a harder time understanding emotions of others. Usually they suffer from a lack of empathy. Oh wait I googled and there are blogs and articles that say it isn't lack it is that they feel too much.. Interesting...

But for most yes I think empath ability is a gift or a curse p, depending on how it's used received... Bumost people would fall into a sympathizer emotion to another. Because, while yes you may feel sad for another person,but the actual emotion and feeling of "sad" can differ between the two people.

If you ever look into empathy it's very interesting not only to verbage mistake between the two words but the theories as well that are involved for empathy.

BellaVita
01-22-16, 05:38 PM
I'm super intrigued by this.i want to study your brain :giggle: :eek::o . You also mention previously that you have Asperger's correct? Usually, isomeone with Asperger's would have a harder time understanding emotions of others. Usually they suffer from a lack of empathy. Oh wait I googled and there are blogs and articles that say it isn't lack it is that they feel too much.. Interesting...

Haha :)

Yeah, I'm autistic. It's actually a myth that autistic people suffer from a lack of empathy. What we actually have trouble with is cognitive empathy but our affective empathy is intact. In fact, it is now being suggested that we might have higher affective empathy than the average person.

I do have a hard time understanding the emotions of others, especially in real time and I cannot do "mental tracking" of their emotional states. I cannot label their emotions either.(or my own usually) I can't read their facial expressions. (I can in *some* cases, like if the person has a huge smile or a huge frown then I can tell it is happiness or sadness - but I cannot read all of the other "in between" emotions)

But yeah, I do "feel too much."

Ooops, I totally got all excited and accidentally skipped over your last sentence saying you already looked into this. :o

But for most yes I think empath ability is a gift or a curse p, depending on how it's used received... Bumost people would fall into a sympathizer emotion to another. Because, while yes you may feel sad for another person,but the actual emotion and feeling of "sad" can differ between the two people.

If you ever look into empathy it's very interesting not only to verbage mistake between the two words but the theories as well that are involved for empathy.

Interesting, thank you for sharing.

mildadhd
01-23-16, 01:08 AM
Origin of infant


Middle English enfaunt, from Anglo-French enfant, from Latin infant-, infans, from infant-, infans, adjective, incapable of speech, young..


Infants are young children before they develop the ability to communicate verbally.

dvdnvwls
01-23-16, 01:19 AM
Trivia: The soldiers called "infantry" have that name because according to the name they don't talk either - i.e. it's their job to shut up and do as they're told. :) (In reality, of course, they do talk from time to time. ;) )

mildadhd
01-23-16, 01:33 AM
Members wanted to know the age group I was focusing on. I am focusing on the preverbal implicit stage of development. Emotional learning and emotional memories, occurring before the ability for cognitive learning and cognitive memories.

BellaVita
01-23-16, 02:34 AM
Members wanted to know the age group I was focusing on. I am focusing on the preverbal implicit stage of development. Emotional learning and emotional memories, occurring before the ability for cognitive learning and cognitive memories.

What age would that be?

I have memories from before age 2.

mildadhd
01-23-16, 03:04 AM
What age would that be?

I have memories from before age 2.

Everyone has memories from birth, but almost all of them are implicit emotional memories, because higher neocortex required to have explicit memories is naturally not developed enough during the first year of life. I think I have noticed that some people with autism note they have explicit memories early in life, although I am not sure if autism is the reason they can explicitly remember a little earlier or not? But the general idea is the emotionally the same for every human during approximately the first year of life.

mildadhd
01-23-16, 12:49 PM
BellaVita can ADHD be a secondary comorbidity of autism?

Lunacie
01-23-16, 01:11 PM
BellaVita can ADHD be a secondary comorbidity of autism?

Of course I'm not Bella, but yes, ADHD and Autism/Asperger's can be comorbid.

mildadhd
01-23-16, 01:19 PM
Of course I'm not Bella, but yes, ADHD and Autism/Asperger's can be comorbid.

Thanks. Is autism primary and ADHD secondary?

Lunacie
01-23-16, 01:49 PM
Thanks. Is autism primary and ADHD secondary?


I think there is a difference between 'comorbid' and 'secondary.'

'Secondary' seems to mean as a result of the primary condition, and 'comorbid' means alongside of the primary condition.

So my opinion as a layperson would be that autism and adhd are comorbid, neither is primary.

dvdnvwls
01-23-16, 05:25 PM
Thanks. Is autism primary and ADHD secondary?
"Secondary" would usually mean that the secondary thing was only there as a result of the primary thing. For example, it is common for a person to have ADHD with secondary depression - the depression in that case being a result of the ADHD. (Depression with ADHD doesn't have to be a result of the ADHD - but sometimes it is.)

"Comorbid" means happening at the same time but not having a primary/secondary relationship at all.

mildadhd
01-23-16, 11:45 PM
Is a ADHD sometimes a result of a autism?

Lunacie
01-24-16, 12:07 AM
Is a ADHD sometimes a result of a autism?

Again, in my opinion only, they are comorbid disorders, neither is a result of the other.

The professional opinions I could find earlier seemed to be of that opinion.

mildadhd
01-24-16, 12:32 AM
Again, in my opinion only, they are comorbid disorders, neither is a result of the other.

The professional opinions I could find earlier seemed to be of that opinion.

It would be interesting to know what endophenotypes the most common conditions have in common?

Socaljaxs
01-24-16, 12:43 AM
It would be interesting to know what endophenotypes the most common conditions have in common?

Hmm interesting question, but what would be the most common conditions? I'm sure it would be something like a quick Google search of most common diagnosed condition... there are statistically what would be considered most common condition but for this are we just considering mental disorders? Because, physical conditions such as obesity would also fall into an endophenotypes

* yes Morbid obesity can be argued that it may be a secondary to another illness. But, there are a multitude of reasons why a person can become Obsese

mildadhd
01-24-16, 01:30 AM
Depression may not be an isolated problem and patients can often have a range of related comorbidities.1 Patients with depression frequently experience comorbid anxiety – in fact, the presence of an anxiety disorder is the single strongest risk factor for developing depression.2

Common Comorbidities (http://www.printfriendly.com/print/?source=homepage&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rethinkdepression.com%2Fa-guide-to-depression%2Fcommon-comorbidities%2F)

dvdnvwls
01-24-16, 01:38 AM
mildadhd: What was the specific purpose of your latest post?

Socaljaxs
01-24-16, 01:46 AM
It would be interesting to know what endophenotypes the most common conditions have in common?

Also, just so we are all on the same page, since it is been happening on here quite frequently and rather often that a big science type words will get used differently than its intended meaning or used to replace another more precise and understandable definition than what a standard definition would entail...

endophenotypes are you talking about the genetic link between multiple conditions link between anxiety to depression for example or the more standard definition of some people are more heritably link to getting certain conditions.. Like someone that has a cancer gene in their Dna

mildadhd
01-24-16, 01:58 AM
mildadhd: What was the specific purpose of your latest post?


"..anxiety disorder is the single strongest risk factor for developing depression.2"

mildadhd
01-24-16, 02:00 AM
Also, just so we are all on the same page, since it is been happening on here quite frequently and rather often that a big science type words will get used differently than its intended meaning or used to replace another more precise and understandable definition than what a standard definition would entail...

endophenotypes are you talking about the genetic link between multiple conditions link between anxiety to depression for example or the more standard definition of some people are more heritably link to getting certain conditions.. Like someone that has a cancer gene in their Dna

Common endophenotypes would indicate common areas of the brain involved. Common endophenotypes within each condition and other common conditions, would also indicate the reality (evidence) of the conditions.

daveddd
01-24-16, 04:11 AM
Common endophenotypes would indicate common areas of the brain involved. Common endophenotypes within each condition and other common conditions, would also indicate the reality (evidence) of the conditions.

a common endophenotype with high almost identical phenotypical psychiatric presentations


What genes are related to fragile X syndrome?
Mutations in the FMR1 gene cause fragile X syndrome. The FMR1 gene provides instructions for making a protein called FMRP. This protein helps regulate the production of other proteins and plays a role in the development of synapses, which are specialized connections between nerve cells. Synapses are critical for relaying nerve impulses.
Nearly all cases of fragile X syndrome are caused by a mutation in which a DNA segment, known as the CGG triplet repeat, is expanded within the FMR1 gene. Normally, this DNA segment is repeated from 5 to about 40 times. In people with fragile X syndrome, however, the CGG segment is repeated more than 200 times. The abnormally expanded CGG segment turns off (silences) the FMR1 gene, which prevents the gene from producing FMRP. Loss or a shortage (deficiency) of this protein disrupts nervous system functions and leads to the signs and symptoms of fragile X syndrome.
Males and females with 55 to 200 repeats of the CGG segment are said to have an FMR1 gene premutation. Most people with a premutation are intellectually normal. In some cases, however, individuals with a premutation have lower than normal amounts of FMRP. As a result, they may have mild versions of the physical features seen in fragile X syndrome (such as prominent ears) and may experience emotional problems such as anxiety or depression. Some children with a premutation may have learning disabilities or autistic-like behavior. The premutation is also associated with an increased risk of disorders called fragile X-associated primary ovarian insufficiency (FXPOI) and fragile X-associated tremor/ataxia syndrome (FXTAS).
Read more about the FMR1 gene.
Read more about fragile X-associated primary ovarian insufficiency and fragile X-associated tremor/ataxia syndrome.

ADHD and autism symptoms are normally found here

like lunacie said i don't think either would be primary or secondary

maybe both secondary to a complete difference primary

possibly in this syndrome representing a overactive primary emotional system (empathetic neurons included) with difficulties in regulation

aeon
01-24-16, 02:08 PM
The caregiver feels sad, when the infant feels sad. The infant feels sad, when the caregiver feels sad.

Science doesn’t agree with the first part, in general, but it does happen of course.

Science does agree with the second part, in general, but sometimes it doesn’t happen, and if consistent, might suggest pathology.

All within the context of pair-bond affective regulation between mother and infant.


Cheers,
Ian

dvdnvwls
01-24-16, 03:12 PM
"..anxiety disorder is the single strongest risk factor for developing depression.2"
I know, and we were talking about ADHD so I don't see how that fits with anything.

mildadhd
01-25-16, 10:47 PM
Depression feels sad, when experiences of separation anxieties are "consistent".

Socaljaxs
01-26-16, 12:08 AM
I know, and we were talking about ADHD so I don't see how that fits with anything.

The caregiver feels sad, when the infant feels sad. The infant feels sad, when the caregiver feels sad.

Understanding the emotional relationship between caregiver and infant, infant and caregiver is a general parenting issue. As a caregiver, I can't think of any reasons to disagree. Can you?

"..anxiety disorder is the single strongest risk factor for developing depression.2"

Common endophenotypes would indicate common areas of the brain involved. Common endophenotypes within each condition and other common conditions, would also indicate the reality (evidence) of the conditions.

Depression feels sad, when experiences of separation anxieties are "consistent".


What is your intention for this thread? Granted the op was very confusing as to a purpose and when you clarified it, you mentioned looking for an emotional relationship between infant and caregiver.. Now this is even more confusing considering how the topic doesn't flow or work together of an over all theme.... And what does it have to do now withthe and General parenting issues? Talking about emotional relationships and now links between depression and anxiety.

The last quote is such a general statement is there s purpose to this?

dvdnvwls
01-26-16, 12:20 AM
I will take a stab at what I think the purpose of this thread is:

I think mildadhd is convinced that he caught ADHD as a result of the way he was treated as a child, and is on an endless crusade to prove that.

daveddd
01-26-16, 12:28 AM
I will take a stab at what I think the purpose of this thread is:

I think mildadhd is convinced that he caught ADHD as a result of the way he was treated as a child, and is on an endless crusade to prove that.

while i also get frustrated sometimes with the lack of clearness and flow in milds thread (until i remember my own issues with expressing myself) , mild is not and has never said that

others have also said that and continued with it for years even after it was clear he never says that

daveddd
01-26-16, 12:38 AM
I'm not speaking for anyone

but the caregiver , infant response IS an important factor in the presentation of ADHD (to me the phenotype is more important then the predisposition)

when an infant feels distress it should be transferred to the care giver who then should sooth , then when language starts begin to label the shared emotion

that starts the process of emotional regulation by internalization of speech , a theory by vygotsky (barkley heavily bases his theory on vygotskys work)

mildadhd
01-26-16, 12:39 AM
Science doesn’t agree with the first part, in general, but it does happen of course.

Science does agree with the second part, in general, but sometimes it doesn’t happen, and if consistent, might suggest pathology.

All within the context of pair-bond affective regulation between mother and infant.


Cheers,
Ian

Thanks Aeon.

Could you explain to Dvdnvls for me?

namazu
01-26-16, 02:01 AM
MODERATOR NOTE: Please note the OP's desire to discuss caregivers' and children's emotions in the context of early childhood development and parenting.

It is fine to ask questions to clarify the intent of the thread or to advance the discussion.

Off-topic posts will be removed.

A friendly reminder: No one is under no obligation to participate (or to continue to participate) in a thread. If you do choose to participate, please heed our guidelines and treat each other with respect, even if you disagree with (or don't understand) another member's point of view.

mildadhd
01-31-16, 01:06 AM
When the infant feels consistently distressed, the caregiver feels consistently distressed. When the caregiver feels consistently distressed, the infant feels consistently distressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HguwWGoQ-rQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLp-edwiGUU