View Full Version : emotional and physical?


mildadhd
01-31-16, 02:56 AM
It confuses me when emotional feelings are not considered physical.

This thread is meant to explore and discuss what people mean when they say, "emotional and physical.." separately.

Simple example: "Emotional and physical health."

Unmanagable
01-31-16, 10:32 AM
I say it separately because I feel many people totally disregard emotions (and other aspects) when discussing physical health.

I have many sensitivities and have finally made the clear connections within my own life regarding how closely it's all connected.

I typically list physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual (how I view the whole mind, body, spirit thing) because while they are all very strongly connected, there's also a unique aspect to each area that feeds into the whole.

Many people still seem to think they aren't related in any way. It's really difficult for me to engage in what feels like meaningful discussions when things are approached solely from one angle without considering the others.

mildadhd
01-31-16, 12:10 PM
I say it separately because I feel many people totally disregard emotions (and other aspects) when discussing physical health.

I have many sensitivities and have finally made the clear connections within my own life regarding how closely it's all connected.

I typically list physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual (how I view the whole mind, body, spirit thing) because while they are all very strongly connected, there's also a unique aspect to each area that feeds into the whole.

Many people still seem to think they aren't related in any way. It's really difficult for me to engage in what feels like meaningful discussions when things are approached solely from one angle without considering the others.

Thank you.

I really depend on other members interests/posts to help fill in the whole story. Simply to many parts. I tend to lean toward mammalian emotional evolution in an attempt to learn the whole picture, in the order of brain development. But I haven't found the best way to include the whole discussion, in one picture. And am stuck on understanding and discussing level one, before attempting to understand and discuss level two and level three, (and more of the BodyBrainMind) because I can not find much discussion about level one. After thinking about your post. The questions might be..

What are the physical parts of the MindBrainBody?

-What are the physical parts of the Mind?

-What are the physical parts of the Brain?

-What are the physical parts of the Body?

dvdnvwls
01-31-16, 03:52 PM
Your last set of questions is important, but no one knows for sure what the mind is, or if there is one. Therefore, asking for definitions that include "mind" is asking for information that no one has. Some people have a hypothesis or a theory in which they define "mind", but there is a lot of disagreement.

The physical parts of the body (which includes the brain) are, to put it bluntly, everything you would find if you took the body of a person who had just died and carefully cut them apart to find out what was in there. You can find detailed descriptions and pictures of all physical parts of the body, including the brain, in an anatomy textbook.

However, anatomy in itself doesn't fully explain the functions of all these parts. The functions of most bones and muscles is obvious, but what the organs (including the brain) do is more complicated and requires further study. For an interesting corner of a "Level 1" discussion of how the brain works, read all you can find about Wilder Penfield, one of the pioneers of brain surgery. The study of brain function in the 20th and 21st centuries is a huge subject, such that you could read fifty books and still not know half of it.

Fuzzy12
01-31-16, 04:00 PM
The mind is just an abstract concept and I'd define it as just the output of your brain. One of the outputs. The sum total of your thoughts and emotions. I do separate emotional from physical while talking or writing but that's mainly for convenience sake.

In reality, I believe that emotions are products of physical processes in your body (and that includes the brain) and that they in turn affect physical processes in your body. Sensations.

It's a good question though. I guess physical health refers to everything that does not include emotions, thoughts or any cognitive processes. Again though I think that lines are very blurry and really there for convenience sake.

mildadhd
01-31-16, 09:22 PM
"Mind means experience, subjective experience" (-paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

dvdnvwls
01-31-16, 09:27 PM
"Mind means experience, subjective experience" (-paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)
That is one person's opinion, yes. His opinion is not special or better than anyone else's.

mildadhd
01-31-16, 09:32 PM
That is one person's opinion, yes. His opinion is not special or better than anyone else's.

Dr. Panksepp is a world wide respected BrainMind/MindBrain researcher.

dvdnvwls
01-31-16, 10:35 PM
Dr. Panksepp is a world wide respected BrainMind/MindBrain researcher.
Certainly, yes, and so are others who disagree with him. That's why I say his opinion is not special, it's merely one among many.

mildadhd
01-31-16, 11:09 PM
Certainly, yes, and so are others who disagree with him. That's why I say his opinion is not special, it's merely one among many.

I prefer Dr. Panksepp's work because the actual physical parts are included in his theories whenever biologically possible. I could find some examples if your interested? I am also interested in any theories you think are important to discuss, in regards to the physical biological components of our emotional affects/feelings/self regulations, etc. (as well as other physical parts of the BrainMindBody involved)

sarahsweets
02-01-16, 02:58 AM
I guess mental and emotional health isnt necessarily physical but it can have effects on your body physically. Like, if I have a death in the family, I cry and that knowledge makes me feel sad which can give me anxiety,which can cause my heart to race and my blood pressure to rise. Thats not very scientific but its the best I could come up with. Too many clinicians and people discount the importance of mental health and emotional health. It very much has a lot to do with how I operate.

dvdnvwls
02-01-16, 03:45 PM
I prefer Dr. Panksepp's work because the actual physical parts are included in his theories whenever biologically possible. I could find some examples if your interested? I am also interested in any theories you think are important to discuss, in regards to the physical biological components of our emotional affects/feelings/self regulations, etc. (as well as other physical parts of the BrainMindBody involved)
Daniel Dennett: Consciousness Explained
Thomas Nagel: Mind and Cosmos
David Chalmers: The Conscious Mind
John Searle: The Rediscovery of the Mind
Jaak Panksepp: whichever examples you choose


The points I think are most important to keep in mind: All these are legitimate scientists operating in good faith, and they legitimately disagree with each other, some of them loudly and publicly. Obviously, they can't all be right, because they disagree about basic things. In the future, all of them might be proved wrong. What "the mind" is, how it works, and how it should be understood, are areas where the best scientists all disagree strongly. None of the arguments that any of them have put forward can currently be shown to be decisively better or worse, just very different.

I think it would be very very wrong, given the vast disagreement among the best scientists in that field, for a few people on an ADHD discussion board to just assume we know the right answer and expect others to go along with that.

mildadhd
02-02-16, 12:05 AM
I could not imagine mind without brain, nor brain without mind.

Brain are ancestral genetic experiences.

Mind are individual epigenetic experiences.

dvdnvwls
02-02-16, 12:06 AM
I could not imagine mind without brain, nor brain without mind.
Just because someone cannot imagine it that way, doesn't mean that it isn't that way.

BellaVita
02-02-16, 12:19 AM
When I am anxious or stressed (usually, both happen at once) my body responds by giving me intense lower back/lower stomach pain from Crohn's, sometimes it's so bad I can hardly walk.

So I have been intentionally doing all I can to keep my stress levels down.

Exercise helps reduce my stress levels and when I do it consistently, it helps my Crohn's to not be so bad.

When I am stressed I am more likely to have hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations.

I believe my mental state strongly affects my physical body.

Also this is random but it's about the mind so I'll mention it:
When I was praying for over an hour my psychologist said he saw the highest amount of, ugh now I'm getting confused, was it alpha waves?...I hope I'm not confusing it. Anyway, the highest amount of whatever-waves he had ever seen.

BellaVita
02-02-16, 12:20 AM
I could not imagine mind without brain, nor brain without mind.

Brain are ancestral genetic experiences.

Mind are individual epigenetic experiences.

You never know, we barely understand anything yet. (About the brain/mind)

BellaVita
02-02-16, 12:22 AM
Daniel Dennett: Consciousness Explained
Thomas Nagel: Mind and Cosmos
David Chalmers: The Conscious Mind
John Searle: The Rediscovery of the Mind
Jaak Panksepp: whichever examples you choose


The points I think are most important to keep in mind...

I like that. :lol:

mildadhd
02-02-16, 10:02 PM
Do dogs have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

Do cats have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

Do humans infants have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

What physical brain systems must all mammals have genetically in common, to all be born with basically the same 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses?

dvdnvwls
02-03-16, 01:33 AM
What physical brain systems must all mammals have genetically in common, to all be born with basically the same 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses?
If you knew this, what good would it do for you?

Socaljaxs
02-03-16, 04:00 AM
What physical brain systems must all mammals have genetically in common, to all be born with basically the same 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses?

May I ask you why? It seems that this exact same type of discussion keeps getting brought up in different threads you start as the primary reason for your post? Maybe if we could understand the need you feel for it to be rediscovered and discussed it may help other understand better!

If you are trying to understand the human condition and why or how we feel, what are you trying to figure out or discuss in regards to it.

unless the previous post you wrote I misunderstood, but what I read was that you are trying to learn and try to figure it out (emotional response system) based on all mammals? It seems in my opinion to primal and detached from the human conditions to think of how we feel or emotions we posses base line from the type of animals we are! Yes dogs feel and cats feel. However we also have a more complex brain activity and have many of how we feel based on what society teaches us.. Dogs and cats don't have the same social expectancies we have

Fuzzy12
02-03-16, 04:55 AM
Do dogs have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

Do cats have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

Do humans infants have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

What physical brain systems must all mammals have genetically in common, to all be born with basically the same 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses?

As far as I know our brain structures aren't fundamentally different from other mammals. We mainly have the same structures but the size or complexity may differ. For example, isn't our prefrontal cortex significantly larger than that of most other mammals?

SB_UK
02-03-16, 11:22 AM
Obviously, they can't all be right

can you list the larger arguments which these guys make which absolutely contradict at least one other ? ie absolute contradictions ? such that ^^^ this comment can be understood.

mildadhd
02-03-16, 10:08 PM
As far as I know our brain structures aren't fundamentally different from other mammals. We mainly have the same structures but the size or complexity may differ. For example, isn't our prefrontal cortex significantly larger than that of most other mammals?

Yes. That would be my layhuman understanding as well. Prefrontal cortex specializes in self-regulation and awareness, but the human prefrontal cortex is not completely developed at birth. Our primary unconditioned behaviors are emotional. As our simple emotional brain experiences our complex cognitive mind remembers and learns. About the age of 4-7, self-regulation and cognitive awareness of the prefrontal cortex begin to function on top of that. Its much easier to understand subcortical basic emotional behaviors all mammals have in common, than cortical complex cognitive learned behaviors shaped by zillions of different individual experiences/circumstances.

daveddd
02-03-16, 10:11 PM
When I am anxious or stressed (usually, both happen at once) my body responds by giving me intense lower back/lower stomach pain from Crohn's, sometimes it's so bad I can hardly walk.

So I have been intentionally doing all I can to keep my stress levels down.

Exercise helps reduce my stress levels and when I do it consistently, it helps my Crohn's to not be so bad.

When I am stressed I am more likely to have hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations.

I believe my mental state strongly affects my physical body.

Also this is random but it's about the mind so I'll mention it:
When I was praying for over an hour my psychologist said he saw the highest amount of, ugh now I'm getting confused, was it alpha waves?...I hope I'm not confusing it. Anyway, the highest amount of whatever-waves he had ever seen.

this meshes well with the autism trait known as alexthymia (also coming out this is a large part of ADHD, but different, and not worth debating)

somatizing emotions is a primal form of expression

where higher order expression moves away from somatizing and develops into symbiotic mental imagery (this is a spectrum of emotional expression , issues are shown in most neuro disorders)

so i guess part of the OP

some people may separate emotion and physical because they no longer experience emotions somatically , but just cognitively

mildadhd
02-03-16, 10:27 PM
can you list the larger arguments which these guys make which absolutely contradict at least one other ? ie absolute contradictions ? such that ^^^ this comment can be understood.

Thanks. Some ways of "discussing", turn on my deer stuck standing in the middle of a highway, frozen, staring at the approaching automobile's headlights response.

dvdnvwls
02-04-16, 08:42 PM
can you list the larger arguments which these guys make which absolutely contradict at least one other ? ie absolute contradictions ? such that ^^^ this comment can be understood.

For one famous example, "qualia". Some (especially Dennett) essentially argue that "how something feels" is not a valid concept, while others just as convincingly argue that without this concept, consciousness can't make sense. There are more. I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be; I'm firmly convinced that neither are you, nor is anyone else who is participating in this discussion.

mildadhd
02-04-16, 09:53 PM
so i guess part of the OP

some people may separate emotion and physical because they no longer experience emotions somatically , but just cognitively

viscerally physical, physically visceral

mildadhd
02-04-16, 10:54 PM
Basic Emotional System
General Pos. Motivation SEEKING/Expectancy System

Key Brain Areas
Nucleus Accumbens - VTA
Mesolimbic and mesocortical outputs
Lateral hypothalamus - PAG


Key Neuromodulators

DA (+), glutamate (+), opioids (+), neurotensin (+), orexin (+), Many other neuropeptides


(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

mildadhd
02-05-16, 12:40 AM
For one famous example, "qualia". Some (especially Dennett) essentially argue that "how something feels" is not a valid concept, while others just as convincingly argue that without this concept, consciousness can't make sense. There are more. I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be; I'm firmly convinced that neither are you, nor is anyone else who is participating in this discussion.

It is extremely important to be aware of the fact that mammal's ability for basic preverbal emotional-affective feelings, evolved way before human's cognitive ability for complex verbal thoughts. The only way to study and develop a language to talk about conscious emotional-affective feelings is biologically. (will explain methods more in future)

SB_UK
02-05-16, 11:54 AM
Word games can be a waste of time.

Much of the debate over their importance hinges on the definition of the term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

SB_UK
02-05-16, 12:18 PM
some people may separate emotion and physical because they no longer experience emotions somatically , but just cognitively


external effect (eg being hit) -> consequence (pain)
internal effect (eg imagining being hit) -> consequecnce (pain)

The internal is the external turned inside out.

The term is eversion.

[which will prove to underlie evolution]

Fuzzy12
02-05-16, 01:10 PM
Yes. That would be my layhuman understanding as well. Prefrontal cortex specializes in self-regulation and awareness, but the human prefrontal cortex is not completely developed at birth. Our primary unconditioned behaviors are emotional. As our simple emotional brain experiences our complex cognitive mind remembers and learns. About the age of 4-7, self-regulation and cognitive awareness of the prefrontal cortex begin to function on top of that. Its much easier to understand subcortical basic emotional behaviors all mammals have in common, than cortical complex cognitive learned behaviors shaped by zillions of different individual experiences/circumstances.

Our primary unconditioned behaviors are emotional.

Are you saying that our very early behaviour is driven exclusively by emotions?

I'm not sure what primary unconditioned behaviour is. Apologies, I'm sure, you've explained it before and I should probably just look it up. But does it refer to our behavioural responses before the environment starts conditioning us?

Its much easier to understand subcortical basic emotional behaviors all mammals have in common , than cortical complex cognitive learned behaviors shaped by zillions of different individual experiences/circumstances

I guess, you aren't saying that we have certain emotional behaviours in common with all other mammals because we are born with them? Surely that couldn't be true. I mean our brains even in utero develop differently than that of other species even if we don't consider individual experiences/circumstances. In fact, isn't it that our environment, well, the baby's environment can have an impact even in utero?

I'm sure though that our brains have a lot in common with other mammals. In fact, we might have more in common than not but maybe those little differences have a huge impact.

Apologies, I suspect that I'm completely misunderstanding you. I don't know a lot about this stuff.

SB_UK
02-05-16, 04:04 PM
It confuses me when emotional feelings are not considered physical.

This thread is meant to explore and discuss what people mean when they say, "emotional and physical.." separately.

Simple example: "Emotional and physical health."

I think that all people have definitions for words in their heads.
These definitions reflect the individual's world view.

Other people operate similarly.

And then spend their lives arguing with people over ideas which might be made up from the same words but which from within 2 different minds might represent 2 different meanings.

There is an easy solution to the near impossibility of communication.

Be simple.

Be clear.

As you know - my sole contribution to ADDF is that the purpose of the mind is to know morality and then to behave morally.

The intended/proper purpose of education is to know morality.
The purpose of knowing morality is to be able to behave morally.

The usual 'word game' people then try and make out that there's no such thing as morality - but this is nonsense. Of course we can work out what's moral - simple experimentation with a genuine desire to know the answer - is all that's required.

Social/medical epidemiology tells us what extends life, extends quality of life ... ... tending towards a local/global model of living which maximises length/quality of life is ... morality ...

- but most of it's gonna' prove obvious.

For the most part it's just - stop parasitizing other human beings.

-*-

So what is emotion ? So what is physical ?

In that environment ^^^ (ie morality environment) people will have HAPPY emotions and HAPPY physical (sensory) experiences.

dvdnvwls
02-05-16, 06:12 PM
external effect (eg being hit) -> consequence (pain)
internal effect (eg imagining being hit) -> consequecnce (pain)

The internal is the external turned inside out.

The term is eversion.

[which will prove to underlie evolution]
I think it's wrong to get ahead of ourselves in this kind of discussion.

mildadhd
02-05-16, 10:42 PM
Basic Emotional System
RAGE/Anger


Key Brain Areas
Medial amygdala to Bed Nucleus of Stria Terminalis (BNST). Medial and perifornical hypothalamic to PAG


Key Neuromodulators
Substance P (+), Ach (+), glutamate (+)




(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

SB_UK
02-06-16, 04:59 AM
Basic Emotional System


Key Brain Areas


Key Neuromodulators



(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

Relationship between rage and pain.
Overcome rage.
Overcome pain (alleviate suffering).

What is the basis to rage ?
Bearing a mind of inconsistency/immorality.

Anybody with a mind would know that shows of aggression towards those without a mind will just result in escalating military action in which (in time) everybody's dead.

-*-

Is rage ever useful ?
Human beings get things done by explaining why.
Not be screaming at somebody to comply.

Screaming at others to comply (education,workplace) can get people to do things - but they won't be sure why.
And so although 'rules' will be folowed - the underlying point won't
- and so when an event occurs which is outside of the rules but governed by the underlying principle of the rule -

then the individual who has been told and doesn't understand why they're performing some act - will not act appropriately.

Simply - the human being is all about understanding.
Understanding arises from a mind which is built to know morality of and for itself.

SB_UK
02-06-16, 08:52 AM
So - I'd suggest.

POINT 1
Help to put people in a happy EMOTIONAL (no psychological distressors eg ) and PHYSICAL (no physical distressors eg pollutants) environment.
Use epidemiology if common sense is not applicable eg cigarettes have no positive effect therefore discard

POINT 2
As general consensus (see above) of how we should live our lives is agreed - we'll see that the understanding of reality as reflected in each individua's minds as reflected in their definition of words rationalises.

POINT 3
Conferring capacity for communication facilitating agreement

POINT 4
Resulting in people actually coming to decisions collectively which're robust.

-*-

So we've the peculiar observation that there's no point in working out what an individual means by Physical or Emotional - since only when they're placed in a happy physical and happy emotional state - is there any chance of people agreeing on what those (as examples) words mean.

But more generally - across all words which're also open to interpetation.

-*-

The generaL idea is that a 'happy emotional state' [some belief systems call this BLISS] arrives at the same time as acquisition of free will [some belief systems call this ENLIGHTENMENT] - where free will means having a certain structure of mind - which when 2 people share (ie 2 people have attained wisdom) - only then can we find words being used with shared meaning.

So - the ideal would be to expect disagreement up until disagreement no longer matters ie if in a happy emotional and mental state - is there any need to define what the words emotional or mental mean ?
IRONY - that agreement wil only be possible when agreement no longe matters.

Where -
- disagreement should decrease from severe (2 people with wildly different names for Gods with strange qualities slugging it out) to non-existent as two minds from zero to wisdom develop.

-*-

General idea - use epidemiology to shape the environment by assessing physical and psychological distress and shaping its avoidance - until we find ourselves through understanding born through epidemiology in a place where we've made the transition from experimental morality into intrinsic morality.

Why epidemiology (studying whole ones) and not some dissection (studying genes, nerves in isolation and trying to put human beings together) mechanism ?
Because there's absolutely no way that you're ever going to study a nerve in isolation and define the optimal conditions for a brain/mind to exist in through such simplifying methodology.

If you want to know how something works - study the thing.

Studying parts are much easier - but who wants easy if it won't lead you to the answer that is required ?
Yes lots of publications and titles.
No - any utility to alleviating human suffering.

SB_UK
02-06-16, 09:14 AM
This thread is meant to explore and discuss what people mean when they say, "emotional and physical.." separately.


So the above posts explain at the most general level what -
"people mean when they say {insert word}"

No point in communication until there's a shared (intrinsically) lexicon.

Or rather the point is through communication using observational data (partic epidemiology but beyond into all observational data) into generating a shared lexicon ie individual wisdom, group wisdom ... ...

At group wisdom the lexicon ceases to matter since it was simply arrival at the shared lexicon -
ENLIGHTENMENT
which gives rise to a happy state of being
BLISS

... ... ... from which point any disagreements in the definition of words, though ceasing to matter, can be resolved

- if only though - to tidy up loose ends.

Always nice to ensure that one's holiday home is tidy before moving into a retirement home.
Or is that one's prison before moving into a holiday retirement home ?

Lunacie
02-06-16, 02:44 PM
Relationship between rage and pain.
Overcome rage.
Overcome pain (alleviate suffering).

What is the basis to rage ?
Bearing a mind of inconsistency/immorality.

Anybody with a mind would know that shows of aggression towards those without a mind will just result in escalating military action in which (in time) everybody's dead.

-*-

Is rage ever useful ?
Human beings get things done by explaining why.
Not be screaming at somebody to comply.

Screaming at others to comply (education,workplace) can get people to do things - but they won't be sure why.
And so although 'rules' will be folowed - the underlying point won't
- and so when an event occurs which is outside of the rules but governed by the underlying principle of the rule -

then the individual who has been told and doesn't understand why they're performing some act - will not act appropriately.

Simply - the human being is all about understanding.
Understanding arises from a mind which is built to know morality of and for itself.

For me, it seems to happen the other way around. The pain causes the rage, or inhibits my ability to inhibit the rage, if you see what I mean?

mildadhd
02-07-16, 02:00 AM
Basic Emotional System
FEAR/Anxiety


Key Brain Areas
Central & lateral amygdala to medial hypothalamus and dorsal PAG



Key Neuromodulators
Glutamate (+), DBI, CRF, CCK, alpha-MSH, NPY





(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

SB_UK
02-07-16, 05:30 AM
Basic Emotional System



Key Brain Areas



Key Neuromodulators





(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)


The fear neuromodulators are the key factors in appetite regulation.

INSATIABLE HUNGER (feeding addiction) <- The rat in rat park subject to increasing distress
->
'I'd rather not' (to lose addictive propensity) <- The rat in rat park subject to eustress

Environmenally determined self-medication eg as described in the 'Rat Park' experiment (Peripheral).

So - the point'd be - if we know that external environment / social environment leads to self-medication feeds addictive propensity - is there any point in working out what the neuromodulators are ? It just feels like a method of preventing social / external change since the expectation is being offered that the problem may be remedied with a drug or such like intervention at a lower evolutionary level.

The case can be made that the dissection sciences (neuroscience, genetics) are a method of avoiding acting on the 'whole body' sciences (epidemiology, physiology) and actually introducing change which prevents occurrence of the problem in the first place.

Not cure Not prevention - only prevention - as cure cannot work.

mildadhd
02-07-16, 03:04 PM
Basic Emotional System
LUST/Sexuality



Key Brain Areas
Cortico-medial amygdala, Bed nucleus of stria terminalis (BNST) Preoptic hypothalamus, VMH, PAG



Key Neuromodulators
Steroids (+), vasopressin, & oxytocin, LH-RH, CCK





(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

daveddd
02-07-16, 03:10 PM
do emotions physically hurt

maybe thats why opiates are the only med that fixes me

mildadhd
02-07-16, 04:01 PM
Opiate receptors can be found throughout the body and in each organ they play a specific role.

In the nervous system they are tranquilizers and painkillers, but in, say the gut, their role is to slow down muscle contractions.

In the mouth, they diminish secretions.

This is why narcotics taken for pain relief will cause unwanted side effects elsewhere in the body, such as constipation or a dry mouth.


-Gabor Mate M.D., "In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts", P 152.

mildadhd
02-07-16, 04:10 PM
Basic Emotional System
CARE/Nurturance


Key Brain Areas
Anterior Cingulate, BNST Preoptic Area, VTA, PAG



Key Neuromodulators
oxytocin (+), prolactin (+) dopamine (+), opioids (+/-)




(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

mildadhd
02-07-16, 05:21 PM
Basic Emotional System
PANIC/separation


Key Brain Areas
Anterior Cingulate, BNST & Preoptic Area Dorsomedial Thalamus, PAG



Key Neuromodulators
opioids (-), oxytocin (-) prolactine (-), CRF (+) glutamate (+)




(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

mildadhd
02-07-16, 05:27 PM
Basic Emotional System
PLAY/joy



Key Brain Areas
Dorso-medial dicenphalon Parafascicular Area, PAG



Key Neuromodulators
opioids (+/-), glutamate (+) Ach (+), cannabinoids, TRH?





(paraphrasing Dr Panksepp)

SB_UK
02-08-16, 09:17 AM
Still rest with the basic idea that the goal is to transcend these emotions.

Goes without saying for PANIC,FEAR,RAGE - but if we enjoy
SEEKING (anticipation, desire)

RAGE (frustration, body surface irritation, restraint, indignation)

FEAR (pain, threat, foreboding)

PANIC/LOSS (separation distress, social loss, grief, loneliness)

PLAY (rough-and tumble carefree play, joy)

MATING (copulation—who and when)

CARE (maternal nurturance)

play
mating
care
seeking

then we're placed back into

fear
rage
panic

when we're not getting 'reward/feedback/sufficient'

play
mating
care
seeking

SB_UK
02-08-16, 09:18 AM
The obvious position to attain would be 'freedom' from all of the above emotions.

THROUGH ATTAINING WISDOM

Socaljaxs
02-08-16, 10:49 AM
The obvious position to attain would be 'freedom' from all of the above emotions.

THROUGH ATTAINING WISDOM

Why? Why do you think that freedom in all emotions be the obvious position to attain? Emotional aren't bad? Emotional state of being regardless of what's felt/how it is felt, is not wrong?

I'm assuming your "attaining wisdom " is similar to how
/what beendescribed it in previous posts?

mildadhd
02-08-16, 11:12 AM
(3 horizontal brain processing levels from the top down)

***Human prefrontal cortex (wisdom, morality)
**Memory, learning (Papez Circuit, see video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xoFeF0jQbg
*Primary emotional-affect, primary homeostatic-affect, primary sensory-affect (originating below the Papez Circuit)

This discussion would not be possible without all 3 (vertically layered) brain processing levels.

Primary affects + early experiences (conception--age of 2*) = implicit bottom up emotional memories.

Primary affects + later experiences (after the age of 3-111*)= implicit bottom up emotional memories and explicit top down emotional-cognitive memories.

I am focusing in the natural order of BrainMind development beginning from conception through age 2*.

Understanding the inside primary affective states/processing level of brain control, helps me understand how emotional, homeostatic and sensory experiences influence inside emotional, homeostatic and sensory neuroanatomies and neurochemistries that lead to learning and wisdom of MindBrain inside.

SB_UK
02-08-16, 11:39 AM
.....

mildadhd
02-08-16, 11:53 AM
.....

Sorry, in my last 2 posts, i meant vertical brain processing levels from the top down.

mildadhd
02-08-16, 12:03 PM
The obvious position to attain would be 'freedom' from all of the above emotions.

THROUGH ATTAINING WISDOM

Feelings (bottom up), example "seeking wisdom".

Emotional-cognition?


Thoughts (top down), example "attaining wisdom".

Cognition-emotional?


"Circular Causation"

SB_UK
02-08-16, 12:04 PM
conception--age of 2*
= implicit bottom up emotional memories.

(after the age of 3-111*)
= implicit bottom up emotional memories and explicit top down emotional-cognitive memories.



You see the problem I have is that I think that wisdom delees memories in the sense that the mind (memory = datapoints) is a tool in gaining wisdom/understanding - at which point memories (datapoints,knowledge) are no longer required.

You don't need to know how to drive after you've driven to your final destination.

SB_UK
02-08-16, 12:11 PM
Maybe a better way of expressing it is that memories

- being told how to do the right thing and remembering
is no longer necessary when we become
enforcedly moral (wise) ie we don't need to remember rules for morality if enforced moral at wisdom

The point being that the human mind is only a container for knowing what is right and what is wrong - and wisdom is the culmination of the development of such a mind.

-*-

Why do we need any model for human being outside of morality ?
Well - simply - we don't.

The evolutionary rule is that we only need consider the most recent, highest emergent property.

Mind + morality -> Wisdom

Follow ^^ and all downstream problems dissipate.

SB_UK
02-08-16, 01:35 PM
Understanding the inside primary affective states/processing level of brain control, helps me understand how emotional, homeostatic and sensory experiences influence inside emotional, homeostatic and sensory neuroanatomies and neurochemistries that lead to learning and wisdom of MindBrain inside.

I'm suggesting that emotional lability + wisdom -> enforced emotional stability ie from start of life to wisdom - all that's required is a non distressful eustressful environment deleting wildly swinging emotional lability into a state of fixed emotional stability.

what happens when emotional stability is distressed ?
standard dissociation

== classic ADHD

No matter how much I stare at pointless, moronic texts - I cannot force myself to read.
The brainmind simply dissociates when required to pay attention to nonsense.

SB_UK
02-08-16, 01:57 PM
The issue of emotional vs physical bein interpreted by different people can't be solved.
The issue of people having their own interpretations of words can't be solved.

We can only (using social and medical epidemiology) define a moral lifestyle from gamete formation to brain death - and to live that lifestyle - with scientific evidence and explanation provided - supporting the characterization of morality.

In truth - it's best for social and medical epidemiological experimentation to be run by people who've attained wisdom - so that certain pitfalls can be avoided.

ie don't bother checking out whether fast food or cigarettes are bad for health as neither will be possible in a world without money/profit-motive which is by definition IMMORAL ... ... ie don't waste time on the sorts of problems we currently are victim to - if a higher level immoral concern can wipe these issues off the table.

Similarly - don't worry about lawyers/bankers destroying the planet since they're only working for money - which when removed - removes them ie no point in trying to correct the law or economics of money - both problems resolve by simply deleting money.

-*-

So which questions are we required to answer ?
We'll find that we'll eliminate all problems that we currently have simply by altering social infrastructure away from money eg see 4 examples above.

There isn't anything that we don't already have sufficient answer for/to.

SB_UK
02-08-16, 02:00 PM
For prevention is immeasurably better than cure

But cure$ that do not work and which prey on an individual's lack of knowledge pay immeasurably MORE.

The current medical establishment is only about all-comers making money; nobody cares about anybody - and that is the sole point that wisdom offers - and the sole point that people need to grasp.

SB_UK
02-08-16, 02:52 PM
I'm simply suggesting tht we don't need to know anything about gene or nerve - about lung or brain - all we need to know is if
intervention -> increases or decreases quality oflife -> as assessed by epidemiology

String the interventions together which lead to a longer, higher quality life and that's the moral model - which a little common sense should be able to identify the mecahistic basis underlying each individual part. of this 'moral' model.

-*-

It's just going to end up being a model of equality (through absence in force for inequality ie money cf wealth condensation) and co-operative sustainable existence (first in survival essentials - food + shelter + water + energy + waste management) - thereafter voluntaryism.

Sad that all we need can be summarised in a few words - and yet the tens of thousands of publications which're written on the subject.

mildadhd
02-08-16, 09:29 PM
One example involving interacting SEEKING/expectancy, RAGE/anger, PANIC/separation and other basic primary emotional response systems.

All mammalian primary caregivers and children (including humans) respond in a similar way, during similar circumstances.

PANIC/separation response system and other primary emotional response systems, are meant to promote survival.

When negative feeling response systems are stimulated daily consistently by negative emotional experiences, may sometimes result in a delay in mammalian dopaminergic and opiate reward pathways including prefrontal development.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ_tJxy9hVA

mildadhd
02-08-16, 10:13 PM
Example of interacting SEEKING/expectancy, CARE/nurturing, PANIC/separation and PLAY/joy, mammalian primary response systems plus experiences resulting in learning and remembering, etc..

There is always at least one primary emotional response system involved in any circumstance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZjFVb0jdbc

aeon
02-09-16, 12:03 AM
Do dogs have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

Maybe, but because we are not dogs, and because we cannot know, in the experiential sense, the experience of a dog, there is no way to answer this question.

To say “yes” seems quite a presumptuous leap, and more one of faith than reason.

Do cats have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

Same as above with the dog.

Do humans infants have raw emotional feelings?

(yes)

It would seem so, based on external observations, but in truth, we do not know. Human beings tend not to have memories of their emotional experience (if any) from the age of 2 years and under, and we have no way to know (with certainty) the internal experience, emotional or otherwise, of any other human being.

So again, to say “yes” seems quite a leap, and more one of faith than one based on rational argument.

What physical brain systems must all mammals have genetically in common, to all be born with basically the same 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses?

First, we do not know what other mammals have or not as it regards emotional systems, nor can we know, nor shall we know, with any certainty, much less at all.

Also, the idea that there exists 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses is a hypothesis. Which is not to say it is worth more or less, but to keep in mind that it is suitable to explore evidence which may support, or not, but it is not suitable to treat it as a truth upon which we build other arguments or explorations.

While I think there is merit to the idea, I don’t think the emotional experience of a neonate maps so neatly to 7 discrete states, neurologically or otherwise.

Consider, the idea that there exists 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses is to liken the neonate’s state to a digital system of 3 binary bits (roughly) or a single bit system with 7 potential values (exactly).

The neurological function of a neonate, if we consider it to be analog (electrically) has no discrete states. If we consider it to be digital, such that neurons and suchlike are akin to transistors and gates, the value at any given point in time is orders of magnitude more complex than any proposed idea of 7 discrete states.

And if we consider the neurological function of a neonate as a fuzzy logic architecture (quite fascinating in regards to the physical/electrical structure of the cerebrum!), we arrive somewhere else, but it still doesn’t map to 7 discrete states.

It may be possible that there are discrete states, but some will remain unknown and unexplored for the simple fact we do not have a word to label or describe them. Given the worldwide cultural systems dedicated to emotional “management,” this wouldn’t surprise me.

---

In my experience, emotional is physical, at least in part, if not entirely.

In any case, what I can know is limited by my perceptions and awareness, and inasmuch as this is true, I have no way to test them as independent variables.

And for that matter, the ideas of emotional and physical are deeply rooted in language and culture. They may not be valid as it concerns the human experience. At least I am open to considering that.


Cheers,
Ian

mildadhd
02-09-16, 12:30 AM
Maybe, but because we are not dogs, and because we cannot know, in the experiential sense, the experience of a dog, there is no way to answer this question.

To say “yes” seems quite a presumptuous leap, and more one of faith than reason.



Same as above with the dog.



It would seem so, based on external observations, but in truth, we do not know. Human beings tend not to have memories of their emotional experience (if any) from the age of 2 years and under, and we have no way to know (with certainty) the internal experience, emotional or otherwise, of any other human being.

So again, to say “yes” seems quite a leap, and more one of faith than one based on rational argument.



First, we do not know what other mammals have or not as it regards emotional systems, nor can we know, nor shall we know, with any certainty, much less at all.

Also, the idea that there exists 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses is a hypothesis. Which is not to say it is worth more or less, but to keep in mind that it is suitable to explore evidence which may support, or not, but it is not suitable to treat it as a truth upon which we build other arguments or explorations.

While I think there is merit to the idea, I don’t think the emotional experience of a neonate maps so neatly to 7 discrete states, neurologically or otherwise.

Consider, the idea that there exists 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses is to liken the neonate’s state to a digital system of 3 binary bits (roughly) or a single bit system with 7 potential values (exactly).

The neurological function of a neonate, if we consider it to be analog (electrically) has no discrete states. If we consider it to be digital, such that neurons and suchlike are akin to transistors and gates, the value at any given point in time is orders of magnitude more complex than any proposed idea of 7 discrete states.

And if we consider the neurological function of a neonate as a fuzzy logic architecture (quite fascinating in regards to the physical/electrical structure of the cerebrum!), we arrive somewhere else, but it still doesn’t map to 7 discrete states.

It may be possible that there are discrete states, but some will remain unknown and unexplored for the simple fact we do not have a word to label or describe them. Given the worldwide cultural systems dedicated to emotional “management,” this wouldn’t surprise me.

---

In my experience, emotional is physical, at least in part, if not entirely.

In any case, what I can know is limited by my perceptions and awareness, and inasmuch as this is true, I have no way to test them as independent variables.

And for that matter, the ideas of emotional and physical are deeply rooted in language and culture. They may not be valid as it concerns the human experience. At least I am open to considering that.


Cheers,
Ian

I politely disagree. Will reply with examples next weekend.

SB_UK
02-09-16, 10:00 AM
I think I'm suggesting that the human life-cycle from start to wisdom is programmed by emotions (eg attachment to partner, attachment to child) ... ... but that at point wisdom human beings are special in that we can gain separation from a reward system which ties into emotion.

It's generally considered that being rational/moral is the right thing for a human being and being overly emotional (generally taken to mean irrational) isn't.

All that wisdom offers is a eustressful environment which prevents distress which prevents human downstream problems.

Does wisdom feel emotion ?
Dissociation under stress ie attempt to do anything immoral results in incapacity to pay attenion ie actual dissociation of mind.

It's not permitted.

SB_UK
02-09-16, 10:03 AM
Emotional determinants of life in man up until wisdom.

ie we're played until we follow our programming ie mate, have children, develop a mind

- but I don't think that this is unreasonable to expect from an evolutionary mechanism which wouldn't be at all happy if human beings at age 6 yrs decided that the pointlessness of life mandates that they won't procreate - that the species would die out.

Human beings need some sort of incentive.

Would wisdom choose to have kids ?
This is an interesting question.
The types of kids (expensive, lacking in responsibility, cheating, lying, competitive) that we see - ie just a cross-section of children far from wisdom - are anything but a joy to be around).

Too late when you find this out though.

SB_UK
02-09-16, 10:04 AM
There is always at least one primary emotional response system involved in any circumstance.


In animals and in man until wisdom ?

Then reason takes over.

What is wisdom ?
Enforcedmoral consistency - you have to find out and then do the right thing.
Pain if not.

And if you do ?
We remain stable.

Is staying away from people in the sun moral ?
It's not immoral after the world outside is corrected.
So - currently yes.
But when we've corrected out immoral social environment, and people develop minds which know morality
- then silence in the sun will be my chosen pursuit.

SB_UK
02-09-16, 10:31 AM
Post wisdom - comments in red

SEEKING (anticipation, desire)
Point of seeking was wisdom (completing mind) - no further need to seek
COMBAT BY COMPLETION IN MIND

RAGE (frustration, body surface irritation, restraint, indignation)
Wisdom doesn't feel rage - simply explains and knows when explanations land on deaf ears
COMBAT BY COMPLETION IN MIND

FEAR (pain, threat, foreboding)
All that there's to fear is people who are not wise - there's less fear when we know that people without wisdom will act potentially very erratically ie not constrained to logical conssitency with human wellbeing
COMBAT BY COMPLETION IN MIND

PANIC/LOSS (separation distress, social loss, grief, loneliness)
We all die - the tragedy is death through longterm disease from preventable causes ie people not living life morally (see med+ social epidemiology).
ADDers -sensitivity to distress - greater likelihood of all diseases due to inbuilt sensitivity.
COMBAT BY COMPLETION IN MIND

PLAY (rough-and tumble carefree play, joy)
No PLAY instinct - the dangerous world we live in prevents anybody from PLAYing - if we don't act consistently/morally - we're all dead
To 'fiddle' (play) whilst Rome burns is not a proud characteristic.
COMBAT BY COMPLETION IN MIND

MATING (copulation—who and when)
A component of the programmed human life-cycle - it's required for a period of life and then is extinguished post-wisdom ie after man / woman have passed the stage of having children.
COMBAT BY COMPLETION IN MIND (IE COMPLETING THE REPRODUCTION CYCLE)

CARE (maternal nurturance)
Required for the find a mate / child-rearing programmed stages of the human life-cycle - no longer required at wisdom when we're forced to do what's right for people (wide, child) and so no longer need any emotional compulsion to ensure that we find a mate/mate.
COMBAT BY COMPLETION IN MIND (IE COMPLETING THE REPRODUCTION CYCLE)
-*-

Emotions as prelude to Logical,rational,moral mind controlling behaviour.
But only if human beings realise that the point of education is to know right from wrong using scientific (epidemiological) approaches.

SB_UK
02-11-16, 07:38 AM
The simple sentence is that it doesn't matter what feels right - what matters is what is correctly reasoned to man.
We're different in that we possess a mind.
An alcoholic will feel like a drin - that doesn't mean that it's correct.
Medical epidemiology states that alcohol is of zero beneficial value to man.

Our goal is for reason to triumph over emotion.

At stage wisdom reason and emotion are connected.

You feel good when you do the right thing.
You feel bad when you do the wrong thing.

A key part of wisdom is loss of material world attachment.
What this means is we recognize that we will die - and if we have a world as defined by social and medical epidemiology we'll die with little disease as prelude.
We'll die happy (bliss -> wisdom) - and that's as good as it gets.

Don't wait for genetics or neuroscience to confirm all of this - we can't get from these sciences to a model for human happiness.

The model is simple and epidemiology has the right answer.

mildadhd
02-11-16, 09:57 PM
I feel more than I think.

SB_UK
02-12-16, 07:10 AM
I think that the point above At stage wisdom reason and emotion are connected.
You feel good when you do the right thing.
You feel bad when you do the wrong thing.is meant to be taken to mean that it's not that feelings do not occur - it's that they're in keeping with morality - upon attaining wisdom.

When wise - a feeling of dis - ease will pre-empt the thinking mind from working out why the body has encountered a situation which has put it ill at ease.

-*-

Thing is - though - that we can eliminate consideration of emotion if secondary to wisdom - as wisdom or moral/rational mind - governs emotion and so 'healthy' emotions occur simply conditional on moral fuinctioning.

Even if it's true that emotions pre-empt conscious awareness of problem - that still doesn't place emotions as being root over thinking mind -

I think the pattern is -

low level thinking mind reports a problem (cf machine code or assembly language)
->
'feel' bad
->
high level thinking (conscious awareness which deals in words) (cf BASIC) can phrase low level's machine code in natural language ie can communicate the problem to another human being

SB_UK
02-12-16, 07:15 AM
Bottom line though

1. Human beings are different to animals in that human beings possess a mind
2. The point of a mind is to know morality
3. Upon knowing morality, the individual can undergo an awakening in which they become moral (the individual is said to be wise)
4. The individual then shifts into enforced moral consistency ie there's an intrinsic compulsion to do the right thing ... ... to use the rational mind to determine the right thing - and then to do it ... ... because the wise mind will encounter situations where the right course of action isn't clear and some analysis is required to determine what is right under these circumstances.

One might consider the underlying low level model of mind - emotional connection as being all important in attaining wisdom ... ... but it's important not to discount the character of being able to develop words to explain - since how're we going to see in change for the better - unless we tell people when we notice something of immoral character occurring within our shared mindspace.

The fundamental immoral affliction of man - is needing to earn money for happy survival.

SB_UK
02-12-16, 07:59 AM
I feel more than I think.

So since we're not aware of low level thinking - but can sense emotions - we might be taken to believe that emotions are in charge -

- they're not.

Human beings by virtue of mind (and this isn't entirely evident by looking at them) - are (and it'll happen in the end) customised to doing the right (moral), rational - thing.

History is a pre-amble to people getting their heads in order.

Our greatest enemy simply became people who invented esoteric languages and systems to abuse other people ie plumbing, mechanic, dentist, doctor - the sole point of all of these esoteric systems (which anybody can learn given the right education) is to make the person as much money, power as possible.

You shouldn't need a mechanic, plumber, dentist or doctor in a world which is constructed along moral/rational lines.

That world is well within our reaching - as long as we shed money and permit people to only choose a path in life - if that's what they'd like to do.

If that's what they'd like to do - then conditional on engagement in lcoal co-operatives to supply food - then that's what they can do - WITHOUT expectation of payment.

Freedom of self-determination is your payment.

mildadhd
02-13-16, 09:59 AM
Nature's goal for human growth is for the eventual maturation of a self-motivated, self-regulated and self-reliant adult. The infant lacks these attributes. We may say that the natural agenda is really the transformation of regulation from dependence on another individual to independence, from external regulation to internal regulation. This shift from external to internal regulation requires the development of the prefrontal cortex, the cortex in the very anterior portion of the brain, including and especially the orbitofrontal cortex.

The right orbitofrontal cortex, which for the sake of brevity we will call the OFC, has connections with virtually every other part of the cortex. It also has rich connections with lower brain structures, where the body's internal physiological states are controlled and monitored, and where the most primitive and powerful emotions such as fear and rage are generated. It is at the center of the brain's reward and motivation apparatus and contains more of the reward chemicals associated with pleasure and joy--dopamine and endorphins--than almost any other area of the cortex.

-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", p78. ("Scattered Minds: A New Look At The Origins And Healing Of Attention Deficit Disorder, 1999)

mildadhd
02-13-16, 10:38 AM
(At least), all mammal's have a BrainMind. Adult human's have a more developed MindBrain. Infant human's MindBrain developments are dependent on their adult caregivers for a much longer period of time, than other mammals.

Lunacie
02-13-16, 12:25 PM
(At least), all mammal's have a BrainMind. Adult human's have a more developed MindBrain. Infant human's MindBrain developments are dependent on their adult caregivers for a much longer period of time, than other mammals.

Actually baby elephants are dependent on their adult caregivers for as long or even longer than humans.

daveddd
02-13-16, 12:27 PM
Actually baby elephants are dependent on their adult caregivers for as long or even longer than humans.

elephants, the freeloaders of the animal kingdom

Socaljaxs
02-13-16, 12:45 PM
:giggle:elephants, the freeloaders of the animal kingdom
:goodpost::yes::thankyou::giggle::giggle: this made me crack up laughing.:thankyou:

mildadhd
02-13-16, 06:08 PM
Humans carry their young? Humans require other humans. Like humans, elephants require other elephants. Elephants and humans also have emotional memories and mourn ancestors. Which would not be possible without core primary unconditioned emotional response systems, (secondary) emotional memories (see Papez Circuit), and tertiary higher neocortical emotional-self-regulation wisdom.

Little Missy
02-13-16, 06:21 PM
I love elephants.

mildadhd
02-13-16, 06:30 PM
I love elephants.

I find it fascinating when mammals care for other mammals.

Lunacie
02-13-16, 07:54 PM
When I was sick many years ago and spent a few days napping on my gramma's sofa, her dog laid next to me the whole time.

Another time when I had a virus that knocked me flat for a month, my daughter's cat spent nearly the whole month by my side.

Not even my own pets, but they can tell when someone is sick and they offer comfort.

Little Missy
02-13-16, 07:54 PM
I find it fascinating when mammals care for other mammals.

I would love and care for them as if they were my own. That is how much I love them.

dvdnvwls
02-14-16, 03:47 AM
There is a great deal of material posted in this thread for which the person who posted it is in essence saying either "It's obvious" or "I just know it's true, trust me".

The things you have posted are not obvious.

I guess I would probably trust you on a personal level if you were here beside me, but I can't trust your words about minds and brains and mammals.

When you decide to present ideas that are outside the main stream, you have a duty (socially, as a human, not just as a forum participant) to explain them, and explain why you think they might be true, not just to plop them in front of people and declare them proved because you said so.

SB_UK
02-14-16, 08:45 AM
I find it fascinating when mammals care for other mammals.

As far as I can see - it's only human beings that're capable of enjoying violence ie no other point to the violence other than enjoyment inflicting suffering on others -
schadenfreude (<- the way human beings behave) vs freudenfreude (the properly human way that nobody adopts).

It's the type of mentality which crushed something without any effort to put something better in its place and is the default argument of many people here - who do not seem to realise that you break an argument by supplying a better argument - not by saying 'that's not it' over and over again.

mildadhd
02-14-16, 09:07 AM
Affective neuroscience has made a fresh start by proceeding from the bottom up, without denigrating our unique human abilities, and it is offering both a new vision of mental origins and new data to back up such assertions. Affective neuroscience seeks to link the affective mind to animal brains--to triangulate among (i) subjective mental states (most easily studied in humans), (ii) brain functions (more easily studied in animals), (iii) the natural (instinctual) emotional behaviors that all young mammals must exhibit early in life in order to survive. This triangulation allows us to envision the ancient ground plan for human mental life and the deep neural sources of our values--our primal emotional feelings.

-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", p 6.


(i) subjective mental states (most easily studied in humans)

(ii) brain functions (more easily studied in animals)

(iii) the natural (instinctual) emotional behaviors that all young mammals must exhibit early in life in order to survive

daveddd
02-14-16, 09:18 AM
There is a great deal of material posted in this thread for which the person who posted it is in essence saying either "It's obvious" or "I just know it's true, trust me".

The things you have posted are not obvious.

I guess I would probably trust you on a personal level if you were here beside me, but I can't trust your words about minds and brains and mammals.

When you decide to present ideas that are outside the main stream, you have a duty (socially, as a human, not just as a forum participant) to explain them, and explain why you think they might be true, not just to plop them in front of people and declare them proved because you said so.

what parts are out of the mainstream?

and what is mainstream?

daveddd
02-14-16, 09:21 AM
is mainstream saying that its proven that ADHD is a singular brain disease?

mildadhd
02-14-16, 10:20 AM
Here is a great article to read this week.

Principal Findings

The relevant lines of evidence are as follows: 1) It is easy to elicit powerful unconditioned emotional responses using localized electrical stimulation of the brain (ESB); these effects are concentrated in ancient subcortical brain regions. Seven types of emotional arousals have been described; using a special capitalized nomenclature for such primary process emotional systems, they are SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, PANIC/GRIEF and PLAY. 2) These brain circuits are situated in homologous subcortical brain regions in all vertebrates tested. Thus, if one activates FEAR arousal circuits in rats, cats or primates, all exhibit similar fear responses. 3) All primary-process emotional-instinctual urges, even ones as complex as social PLAY, remain intact after radical neo-decortication early in life; thus, the neocortex is not essential for the generation of primary-process emotionality. 4) Using diverse measures, one can demonstrate that animals like and dislike ESB of brain regions that evoke unconditioned instinctual emotional behaviors: Such ESBs can serve as ‘rewards’ and ‘punishments’ in diverse approach and escape/avoidance learning tasks. 5) Comparable ESB of human brains yield comparable affective experiences. Thus, robust evidence indicates that raw primary-process (i.e., instinctual, unconditioned) emotional behaviors and feelings emanate from homologous brain functions in all mammals (see Appendix S1), which are regulated by higher brain regions. Such findings suggest nested-hierarchies of BrainMind affective processing, with primal emotional functions being foundational for secondary-process learning and memory mechanisms, which interface with tertiary-process cognitive-thoughtful functions of the BrainMind.


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021236

Socaljaxs
02-14-16, 10:37 AM
It's the type of mentality which crushed something without any effort to put something better in its place and is the default argument of many people here - who do not seem to realise that you break an argument by supplying a better argument - not by saying 'that's not it' over and over again.

people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

SB_UK
02-14-16, 10:41 AM
Here is a great article to read this week.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021236

If we take man as a globally social species, then the mind needs to have some way of ensuring that people are not propelled by having positive and avoiding negative ESBs.

The difference between wisdom and all prior evolutionary states is the importance of considering species and not individual as the unitary component - there's no ay of doing this if we maintain carrot nd stick processes in mind in motivation which underline supremacy (ego ?) of the individual not species.

SB_UK
02-14-16, 10:45 AM
is mainstream saying that its proven that ADHD is a singular brain disease?

I think that the mainstream (man on street) views ADHD as the incapacity through laziness to make oneself pay attention to subject matter of little intrinsic interest to the student.
The interesting part which characterizes ADD is dissociation which comes from 'forcing' oneself - our minds literally are forced to wander when we force them to go where they've little interest in going - the great skill we do have though is that our minds will lead themselves in the correct direction (towards the acquisition of morality / rationality) if we simply take them off leash.

Problem - unleashing the mind is very difficult in a world where we need to earn money ie toe the line.

daveddd
02-14-16, 10:50 AM
I think that the mainstream (man on street) views ADHD as the incapacity through laziness to make oneself pay attention to subject matter of little intrinsic interest to the student.

based on news article comments , that is the mainstream

so thats the only acceptable view of ADHD?

Lunacie
02-14-16, 12:07 PM
As far as I can see - it's only human beings that're capable of enjoying violence ie no other point to the violence other than enjoyment inflicting suffering on others -
schadenfreude (<- the way human beings behave) vs freudenfreude (the properly human way that nobody adopts).

It's the type of mentality which crushed something without any effort to put something better in its place and is the default argument of many people here - who do not seem to realise that you break an argument by supplying a better argument - not by saying 'that's not it' over and over again.

Well, it's hard to know for sure if an animal who can't tell us is killing for enjoyment, although it appears that some do just that.

http://www.botswana.co.za/Botswana_Wildlife_Behaviour-travel/killing-for-fun.html

Greyhound1
02-14-16, 12:20 PM
As far as I can see - it's only human beings that're capable of enjoying violence ie no other point to the violence other than enjoyment inflicting suffering on others

I have seen cats that seem to enjoy violence. Many cats will kill a mouse or a lizard batting it around as a form of play just because it's there.

dvdnvwls
02-14-16, 12:26 PM
what parts are out of the mainstream?

and what is mainstream?
Maybe my terminology is bad. Can you suggest better words for me to use?

midnightstar
02-14-16, 04:13 PM
I have seen cats that seem to enjoy violence. Many cats will kill a mouse or a lizard batting it around as a form of play just because it's there.

It's not because it's "there", it's because cats like to keep their hunting skills as close to perfect as they can, you only have to see my Tigger to know what happens when a cat has no idea how to hunt (Tigger thinks that charging like a bull at prey will make them stand there and let her catch them), in Tigger's case before RSPCA took her in she'd never been outside in her life and had no idea how to hunt anything.

dvdnvwls
02-14-16, 06:07 PM
Do we really know for sure one way or the other about cats? We can't really ask them. :)

(Well, of course we can ask - it's just they don't ever seem to answer in a way that we can comprehend.) ;)

Accurately ascribing reasons to another human's behaviour can be hard enough. :)

We can always claim that the animals that act violently toward each other are doing it as practice, and claim that it's necessary for them to find ways to practice violence in order to be prepared to defend themselves, or to compete at mating time, or indeed to be a successful aggressor. Successful aggression against one's own kind is a survival tactic under some circumstances.

Those rationalizations fit beautifully as a description of humans, too. Many people just seem reluctant to admit that it might be just the same for us as for other animals - that the reason humans engage in apparently-gratuitous fighting might be exactly the same reason that lions (or whatever other animals) engage in apparently-gratuitous fighting.

I am not arguing that such a situation is or ought to be the case. I'm saying that if the rationalization works regarding animals, then it works regarding us too.

I remember both of the physical fights I have been in. Neither was long-lasting or serious - no one was seriously hurt. At the rare times when I do feel that aggression of any kind is needed, my actions tend to be out of proportion. I wonder whether, if I had had more practice, I would be able to match my aggression level more closely to the requirements. Or maybe that's just an ADHD thing. I don't know.

Fuzzy12
02-14-16, 06:16 PM
There are plenty of animals who kill not just for food or self defense but for a host of other reasons too. I don't know if any animals kill out of sadism but they kill in order to spread their genes, they kill for dominance, for mates, etc. Infanticide is fairly common as well.

Apparently primates apparently even engage in some sort of warfare...and bullying by the stronger against the weaker is the norm rather than the exception. I wouldn't look to nature for moral guidance.

Little Missy
02-14-16, 06:20 PM
There are plenty of animals who kill not just for food or self defense but for a host of other reasons too. I don't know if any animals kill out of sadism but they kill in order to spread their genes, they kill for dominance, for mates, etc. Infanticide is fairly common as well.

Wolves.

mildadhd
02-15-16, 12:21 AM
Do we really know for sure one way or the other about cats? We can't really ask them. :)

(Well, of course we can ask - it's just they don't ever seem to answer in a way that we can comprehend.) ;)

Accurately ascribing reasons to another human's behaviour can be hard enough. :)

We can always claim that the animals that act violently toward each other are doing it as practice, and claim that it's necessary for them to find ways to practice violence in order to be prepared to defend themselves, or to compete at mating time, or indeed to be a successful aggressor. Successful aggression against one's own kind is a survival tactic under some circumstances.

Those rationalizations fit beautifully as a description of humans, too. Many people just seem reluctant to admit that it might be just the same for us as for other animals - that the reason humans engage in apparently-gratuitous fighting might be exactly the same reason that lions (or whatever other animals) engage in apparently-gratuitous fighting.

I am not arguing that such a situation is or ought to be the case. I'm saying that if the rationalization works regarding animals, then it works regarding us too.

I remember both of the physical fights I have been in. Neither was long-lasting or serious - no one was seriously hurt. At the rare times when I do feel that aggression of any kind is needed, my actions tend to be out of proportion. I wonder whether, if I had had more practice, I would be able to match my aggression level more closely to the requirements. Or maybe that's just an ADHD thing. I don't know.

We know a lot about cats and other mammals. Consider infant cats (kittens) and instinctual emotional behaviors associated with each of the mammalian primary emotional response systems. I mean primarily that is what this thread is physically about.

mildadhd
02-15-16, 01:14 AM
"Hunting" is an excellent example of a learned secondary experience involving the primary SEEKING system.

SEEKING

Cats are super-predators. I've had soundmen who were part of a news crew interviewing people in their homes tell me they can't use a windscreen on a microphone because cats will go crazy attacking it. A windscreen is a cover made from really fluffy fake fur that is placed over the mike to filter out the sound of the wind. Cats are built to hunt physically, not just mentally. The position of their canine teeth lets them hold the animal they've caught and dislocate its vertebrae in just one bite. Mama cats start teaching their kittens how to hunt when the kittens are five weeks old by bringing them live prey. Most people have seen cats play with their prey, but nobody knows why they do it. One interesting hypothesis is that cats play with very large or difficult prey, to tire the animal out and reduce its ability to defend itself. Curiosity and learning are also handled by the SEEKING system, and a happy cat has lots of opportunities to explore and learn.

-Grandin/Johnson, "Animals Make Us Human", p 96.


Important general note: note the SEEKING system is more active before it receives whatever (vegetables, prey, money, drugs, etc) it is hunting/searching, and less active after getting reward.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 05:49 AM
based on news article comments , that is the mainstream

so thats the only acceptable view of ADHD?

Yes - wholly inaccurate is the mainstream view.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 05:53 AM
I have seen cats that seem to enjoy violence. Many cats will kill a mouse or a lizard batting it around as a form of play just because it's there.

I think that dogs can be trained to act violently - but that's caused by inappropriate environmental exposure.
It's undouted that selection for competitive (generally abusive) characters occurs in the worlds we're in.

Do animals torment others for reasons other than necessity (ie food) ?
Not to the same extent as man - no comment on whether at all - though would stick with the idea that animals can be trained to do so.

Would they do so without training ?
If an animal enjoys killing another animal for food - then perhaps the same level of reward would be associated with an animal killing another ... ... without any desire to kill them - or reward by proxy.

Don't know.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 05:56 AM
It's not because it's "there", it's because cats like to keep their hunting skills as close to perfect as they can, you only have to see my Tigger to know what happens when a cat has no idea how to hunt (Tigger thinks that charging like a bull at prey will make them stand there and let her catch them), in Tigger's case before RSPCA took her in she'd never been outside in her life and had no idea how to hunt anything.

Yes - I'e never had a dog that could catch any other animal and even if they did - they wouldn't know what to do after cornering it. Never learnt what to do. Human beings though are constantly receiving reward from hurting other people - presumably every usage of money seen by an average rich person - could be money better spent helping abject poverty to walk.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 05:58 AM
T I don't know if any animals kill out of sadism ...
is the point.

Nature identifies the existence of 'lone' vs 'social' species - perhaps 'lone' might have greater individual strength - but 'social' will always overcome.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 06:04 AM
We know a lot about cats and other mammals. Consider infant cats (kittens) and instinctual emotional behaviors associated with each of the mammalian primary emotional response systems. I mean primarily that is what this thread is physically about.

Human beings overcoming instinct through access/use of a mind is essential.

I think that the various MANY zombie movies that we see currently are efforts to show what happens if we operate on instinctual and not cognitive (rational,moral) motivation.

The zombies are gonna' run out of food and die out in the blink of an eye.

Human beings are gonna' run out of food through inappropriate farming practices and die out in the blink of an eye - unless human beings leave irrational instinctual practices behind and do what we show is in the best interests of man.

An alsoholic doesn't much care for data which shows that any level of consumption of alcohol results in a negative health outcome or the cigarette smoker - in the absolute absence of data which shows ANY positive health outcome through smoking.

Human beings aren't operating rationally - and it's this need (to overcome instinct with rationality) which human beings should have arrived at by now - so advanced (if confused !) is our understanding of reality.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 06:11 AM
"Hunting" is an excellent example of a learned secondary experience involving the primary SEEKING system.




Important general note: note the SEEKING system is more active before it receives whatever (vegetables, prey, money, drugs, etc) it is hunting/searching, and less active after getting reward.

So - instinct = reward from behaviour in the absence of rational component.

Sugar/starch - reward through blood glucose elevation actvation of DA system (sugar starch - blood glucose elevation - stimulation cf dopamine - stimulant)
Prey - reward through glutamate (umami) levels eating prey
Money - reward by proxy of addictive substances (parmesan,cheese,sugar) (glutamate,opioid,dopaminergic) which can thereby be purchased
Drugs - direct activation of glutamate,opioid,dopaminergic systems rather than indirect through components in food

-*-

:rolleyes: Not happy to label the low GI vegetable as addictive - which is probably why children 'd rather go without food than eat their greens.

-*-

General argument - human beings (wisdom) = elimination of SEEKING system
- means (under the hood)

elimination of free dopamine release reward system -> to -> dopamine polymerization (neuromelanin)

ie we observe a phenomenon whereby the drugs (stimulants) cease to work upon attaining wisdom.

Altered reward system

Primitive (instinctual) -> Higher (moral,rational)

The human problem - standard education has not taught an individual moral, rational functioning - but instead - greed-based 'knowledge' geared towards making as much money for the individual at the expense of others.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 06:26 AM
So - we could see how

killing for eating rewards (direct activation)
killing for mating (alpha male) rewards

The animal would be operating on a reward system where the animal would not know whether it's the food or killing, matign or killing which is leading to reward sysem activation -

- and so there's every chance that bleed through could occur and 'killing' could be seen to be the point
... ... however it's counter-evolutionary (survival) to put oneself at risk of death for no apparent gain.

So - trapped in between the Pavlov's dogs idea of salivation through 'bell' not food - and evolution's prime directive of the individual striving to survive.

Human beings won't survive unless human beings act collaboratively, morally, rationally. Human beings have produced methods (not just weaponry but farming practices eg bird flu emergence through over-intensive farming) which incomparable in destructive capacity in relation to anything on offer in the animal kingdom.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 06:39 AM
So - default position is that we don't need to worry about anything other than a definition of what is moral / rational ? and that we can use social/medical epidemiology but not any of the dissection disciplines - because you can't tell how to make a happy whole individual from studying bits of one.

Having said that though - the bits will make some sense if we look at how they behave under a social / medical epirdemiological model of human functioning ie all subsystems will appear to work appropriately

- the core problem is that when they're broken - studying the subsytems can only yield detailed information on derangement (anatomy of a car crash) - and not on how to fix them - a high resolution model of a wrecked car doesn't help us to prevent car accidents.

This is the direction of oncology - using the latest ultra-high throughput genomic instruments - yes we are in the position to see that there's complete disarray in the cell undergoing transformation ... ... however so what ????

We need to prevent the transition from occurring in the first place.

And we've epidemiological models where cancer is close to eliminated - which we should embrace if defeating cancer (and all causes of human disease) are our wont.

Interesting - prostatic cancer is however found in Mount Athos - but a consequence of single sex living and alcohol (frequent red wine) consumption ? Epidemiological evidence of both has been generated.

Other factors in the same study shown to keep [...] cancer at bay were the stress-free existence of the monks [...], proper sleep patterns and the lack of air pollution.

All possible in a world without money.
(Di)stress destroys sleep, distress caused by need to make money <- always immorally by definition (wealth condensation), increase profit through not cleaning up industrial environmental pollutants.

All human problems occur through failure to engage in moral/rational existence because education corrupts the moral/rational conferring structure - destroys the human mind into pursuit of personal and not group wellbeing.

daveddd
02-15-16, 07:31 AM
Maybe my terminology is bad. Can you suggest better words for me to use?

To do that I'd have to know what your gripe is

I see a couple complaints about 7 primary emotions

Yet Thomas brown refers to these and stresses their importance


It's why I don't know what you mean

SB_UK
02-15-16, 07:55 AM
The zombies are gonna' run out of food and die out in the blink of an eye.


26 seconds

7.32 - 7.58

http://www.ted.com/talks/yanis_varoufakis_capitalism_will_eat_democracy_unl ess_we_speak_up?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_content=talk&utm_term=global-social%20issues#t-441248

Little Missy
02-15-16, 08:40 AM
26 seconds

7.32 - 7.58

http://www.ted.com/talks/yanis_varoufakis_capitalism_will_eat_democracy_unl ess_we_speak_up?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_content=talk&utm_term=global-social%20issues#t-441248

Nice political link. :lol:

Fuzzy12
02-15-16, 10:00 AM
26 seconds

7.32 - 7.58

http://www.ted.com/talks/yanis_varoufakis_capitalism_will_eat_democracy_unl ess_we_speak_up?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_content=talk&utm_term=global-social%20issues#t-441248

I haven't watched the video but I've seen him on a political talk show (question time) and he was super impressive. Couldn't fault anything he said.

SB_UK
02-15-16, 10:58 AM
Nice political link. :lol:

The 26 seconds are about economic and corporate systems - which're permitted here.

Lunacie
02-15-16, 12:19 PM
I think that dogs can be trained to act violently - but that's caused by inappropriate environmental exposure.
It's undouted that selection for competitive (generally abusive) characters occurs in the worlds we're in.

Do animals torment others for reasons other than necessity (ie food) ?
Not to the same extent as man - no comment on whether at all - though would stick with the idea that animals can be trained to do so.

Would they do so without training ?
If an animal enjoys killing another animal for food - then perhaps the same level of reward would be associated with an animal killing another ... ... without any desire to kill them - or reward by proxy.

Don't know.

Dogs are pack animals.

When their pack is humans, we rarely see them acting as predators.

When their pack is canine, they often hunt and kill, yes even for "fun."

Little Missy
02-15-16, 01:24 PM
Wolves, torment, maim, sometimes eat but mostly they will rip up an entire herd of sheep, horses, cattle, etc. for the grisly fun of it and leave their alive disemboweled prey to suffer.

mildadhd
02-15-16, 10:34 PM
SEEKING system is a motivation system. (see Dopaminergic pathways) When a person wants vegetables, it is the SEEKING system that motivates the person to go and get the vegetables.

Lunacie
02-15-16, 11:07 PM
SEEKING system is a motivation system. (see Dopaminergic pathways) When a person wants vegetables, it is the SEEKING system that motivates the person to go and get the vegetables.

Yes. Unfortunately stuff like anxiety and depression can interfere with that seeking system, preventing us from getting what we want or need.

dvdnvwls
02-15-16, 11:25 PM
To do that I'd have to know what your gripe is

I see a couple complaints about 7 primary emotions

Yet Thomas brown refers to these and stresses their importance


It's why I don't know what you mean
I'm certainly not complaining about the idea of 7 primary emotions. One of the things I do mean is the assertion that the mind equals nothing but experiences.

BellaVita
02-16-16, 12:36 AM
Dogs are pack animals.

When their pack is humans, we rarely see them acting as predators.

When their pack is canine, they often hunt and kill, yes even for "fun."

With my first dog Bella, I taught her to attack on command. Well, to run and jump on the person and lock her mouth on their arm.

Of course, I only demonstrated this on myself with protective padding, but I wanted her to know the command just in case.

My current dog is super protective of me, so it's not something I need to train in her. She would no doubt protect me and bite someone (HARD - she doesn't have a soft mouth like Bella did) if they were trying to cause me harm.

She is very wary of strangers and protective of her pack. My own personal guard dog. (She is super sweet with me and my fiancé, and is okay with people as long as I introduce them to her in the correct way.)

SB_UK
02-16-16, 03:54 AM
SEEKING system is a motivation system. (see Dopaminergic pathways) When a person wants vegetables, it is the SEEKING system that motivates the person to go and get the vegetables.

is SEEKING involved if the individual doesn't want vegetables ?

(my kids actively try not to find vegetables on their plate)

Just wondering whether SEEKING needs to be tied into some mechanism of driving REWARD ?

So classic 'drug seeking' activity requires drug to activate 'reward'.

What happens when you eat a vegetable ?
There aren't any factors in it morphins, blood glucose elevation, glutamate to kid the body into transietn euphoria ?

-*-

The drive for vegetables is rational / moral not instinctual ie we know that they're the appropriate food source - even if we don't 'feel' it when we eat them.

For DA to be activated - we need DA to be produced when we do the moral/rational thing.

Open to the idea of DA production pre-wisdom instinctually, and post-wisdom when behaving morally/rationally ie to achieve reward (once again) prgrammatically - except programmatically when we exercise free will (moral/rational behaviour) as opposed to addictive drug seeking DA system activation.

Evidence ? Well - it certainly feels bad to counter moral concerns cf pain, stress ... ... and so we're back around to the idea of opposing moral concerns (in ADDer/wisdom) giving rise to the opposite (ie no) reward. And the absence of reward representing pain ie not obtaining reward as distressful, painful - the dichotemy is no reward vs reward.

How would a small child know what the moral thing is ?
I think that the brain/mind is hard-wired to attain wisdom (the developmental delay is simply a sign of a more efficient storage system of information within the mind) and knows (the feeling of not having fun) when it's being forced in a direction which is not compatible with its own enlightenment (most likely because it's (ie th edev delay again) not ready.

The experiential perspective of ADDer is 'losing' information which isn't anchored - which is why all information trickles away unless we anchor it - right from the start in a progression - an evolutionary progression from which we can instantiate reality ie explain what happened pre-Big Bang, post and what lies in the future ... ...

Certainly - the ADDer kids I'm looking at are 3 - 4 years back on nonADDer controls - going to be hard to recover from such a difficult start in life.

-*-

So - thinking that the profile of food we eat is simply self-medication against distress and we'll shift to a natural profile of food intake as long as we eliminate the cause of distress - which is simply forced inequality through adopting money as intermediate in social infrastructure.

-*-

The rats in rat park only self-medicate under distress - otherwise they don't take psychoactive substances.

Human food intake should correct without distress.

But would SEEKING vegetables result in DA production in the child ?
Does SEEKING the next breath of air activate DA production ?

Do human beings have to experience reward in order to do anything or is there any possibility that if we know that something is right then we must do it ?

Do we need to achieve reward from SEEKING sustainability to be sustainable ?
Do we need to achieve reward from not dying from environmental pollutants to shut down industrial processes which pollute ?

Surely there should be a point where we actively SEEK out a course of action which doesn't activate our instinctual DA system but represents, instead - what we know is right.

-*-

What is DA useful for then ?
SEEKing out something novel.
Exercising creativity.

IE not doing what we need to do - but generating something that we'd like, which we don't currently have through exercising imagination, creativity ... ...
This requires SEEKing as we're required to locate something that doesn't exist.

Human beings are supposed to be SEEKing improved personal quality which travels alongside increasing enjoyment/immersion of/within the 'sensual' world

SB_UK
02-16-16, 04:20 AM
What is DA useful for then ?
SEEKing out something novel.
Exercising creativity.


So - we can jump to the most popular educational video of our time.

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity?language =en

And see that

system expertise <- education -> morality


Education can either take us toards molecular expertise in 1 discipline or a jack of all trades - the latter of which (big picture formation) associates with morality with creativity.

Schools drive students in the opposite direction and thereby turn out monsters hellbent on their own financial and personal progress - and even though they may be superficially educated ie able to grasp 1 area at a deep, abstract level - incapable of seeing into other areas - incapable of seeing that everything that they've piled their fortunes into (fiat money) is deeply unstable and timed to implode soon -

not able to define the workings of the economics system because the educational system has trained docility, incapacity to think - and all that we have coming out the other end of education are moronic consumers whose life is geared around materialism.

Even funnier - even the economists aren't able to understand the true operation of the economics system.

That the whole basis of fiat money is timed to explode dependent on global population growth dynamics ie increasing instability with decreasing rate of human population growth.

Human beings need to unlearn all of the nonsense that they've been forced to absorb in order to obtain money (reward re-inforcement) and simply realise that the purpose of mind is to acquire MORALITY - not aything else - and acquiring MORALITY is simple.

Rule # 1 - be simple and provide explanations - listen to fair criticism and design experiments which dispel FAIR criticism - if impossible - move on ... ...

All that people will find is that we need a sustainable external world and a rich internal, informational world - don't mess up the external world (pollution, over-fishing, concrete, plastic) - and knock yourself out generating a rich ... ...

il faut cultiver notre jardin

SB_UK
02-16-16, 04:44 AM
Back round to emotional and physical.

Physical generally means of the physical world.
Emotional generally relates to some aspect of the internal world.

Sound a lot like
Physically addicting - since physical effects internal environment
Psychologically addicting - since emotions are deeply involved with psych addiction

Physical and Psych addiction relate to problems.

Addictions are a problem.

Addictions motivate behaviour which is not in the best interests of people.

We have science which (if we take at least a section from it) defines the mode of living which is in the best interests of people.

All that we're required to do is to overcome physical/psychological addictions through the development of a moral/rational mind - and thereby to start living.

School simply promotes physical and psychological addictions - you will be the best at sport in your class, you will be the head of school - ie generates completely unsustainable competitive drives which will KILL the student - since the student cannot become the BEST at everything for ever ... ... all that generally occurs - is that the student cheats (see widespread steroid abuse in sports and CEO imprisonments for engagement in illegal affairs) and then is imprisoned, deposed etc ... ...

The point being that the human mind can either attempt to be better than other people at x,y,z or to be the best that they can be at x,y,z to improve the collective lot.

Education fails to deliver a mentality which is moral, rational, social in nature - and instead just turns out people who're so delusional that they think that they're worthwhile if they can beat other people in some pursuit.

Complete nonsense - and what we're seeing is the need to completely turn on its head - all education from secondary and beyond. Primary education doesn't so much suffer the flaws of further education - all that's required of it - is that the individual learns to balance, read, write, mental arithmetic and social skills ... ... it's when the individual begins to tackle abstraction that the student needs to be maintained within areas of abstraction with connection to morality.

ie how does 'this information I've learned' help to make the world a better place.

Fuzzy12
02-16-16, 11:17 AM
With my first dog Bella, I taught her to attack on command. Well, to run and jump on the person and lock her mouth on their arm.

Of course, I only demonstrated this on myself with protective padding, but I wanted her to know the command just in case.

My current dog is super protective of me, so it's not something I need to train in her. She would no doubt protect me and bite someone (HARD - she doesn't have a soft mouth like Bella did) if they were trying to cause me harm.

She is very wary of strangers and protective of her pack. My own personal guard dog. (She is super sweet with me and my fiancé, and is okay with people as long as I introduce them to her in the correct way.)

You might have to be careful with this. If she does attack someone, even if it is to protect you, she could get into serious trouble.

Lunacie
02-16-16, 11:32 AM
With my first dog Bella, I taught her to attack on command. Well, to run and jump on the person and lock her mouth on their arm.

Of course, I only demonstrated this on myself with protective padding, but I wanted her to know the command just in case.

My current dog is super protective of me, so it's not something I need to train in her. She would no doubt protect me and bite someone (HARD - she doesn't have a soft mouth like Bella did) if they were trying to cause me harm.

She is very wary of strangers and protective of her pack. My own personal guard dog. (She is super sweet with me and my fiancé, and is okay with people as long as I introduce them to her in the correct way.)

Yes, with either a human pack or a canine pack, dogs will attack to protect.

My point was that with a human pack they rarely attack for entertainment.

WheresMyMind
02-16-16, 02:30 PM
It confuses me when emotional feelings are not considered physical.

This thread is meant to explore and discuss what people mean when they say, "emotional and physical.." separately.

Simple example: "Emotional and physical health."

There's a 4-quadrant model that's been used for over 10,000 years. You can find glimpses of it in various philosophical and religious traditions...

Emotional
Physical
Spiritual
Mental

Often, these are the "quadrants of love" or the "quadrants of life".

Physical is about your body's health. Keeping muscles strong, and especially doing things to increase your endurance and ability to handle extremes of hot/cold, and having a strong immune system.

Emotional is about recognizing emotions for what they are - things that YOU create - and using them as a source of information and not letting them control you. You must have emotion, but you need to be able to accept them without reacting...unless you determine that reacting is the right thing to do.

Mental - the ability to gather information that sometimes contradicts itself and still make a decision. The ability to solve human problems. The ability to determine a sequence of steps that will lead to a desired outcome.

Spiritual - while this can mean something religious, much of the world views it as the concept that you are a part of a fabric called humanity, and you understand and/or have chosen which role you play in that fabric. Do you contribute as an artist? Do you contribute as a job-creator? Is your best role that of child-rearing? How does every action you take impact every human around you and what are the ripple effects that might spill out across the planet?

By evaluating your strength in all four, you decide which ones you're naturally strong in, and those are the strengths you can use to help the world. The weak ones? Work on them. They'll never be strong, but if you ignore them, they'll atrophy to the point where they drag the others down.

These are not separate quadrants, they interact and react with each other. Extreme anger also causes physical effects. Extreme sadness, too, and happiness. HOWEVER, if the only way you notice your emotions is because of their physical effect, then you are emotionally weak - you should be able to sense your emotions BEFORE they cause a physical effect.

And then you use your mental powers to determine different ways of behaving, so that you are more likely to be in situations where you will experience emotions you prefer, rather than ones you don't, which will of course, improve your connection to the fabric of humanity.


Deep stuff, but it works.


WMM

Lunacie
02-16-16, 02:40 PM
There's a 4-quadrant model that's been used for over 10,000 years. You can find glimpses of it in various philosophical and religious traditions...

Emotional
Physical
Spiritual
Mental

Often, these are the "quadrants of love" or the "quadrants of life".

Physical is about your body's health. Keeping muscles strong, and especially doing things to increase your endurance and ability to handle extremes of hot/cold, and having a strong immune system.

Emotional is about recognizing emotions for what they are - things that YOU create - and using them as a source of information and not letting them control you. You must have emotion, but you need to be able to accept them without reacting...unless you determine that reacting is the right thing to do.

Mental - the ability to gather information that sometimes contradicts itself and still make a decision. The ability to solve human problems. The ability to determine a sequence of steps that will lead to a desired outcome.

Spiritual - while this can mean something religious, much of the world views it as the concept that you are a part of a fabric called humanity, and you understand and/or have chosen which role you play in that fabric. Do you contribute as an artist? Do you contribute as a job-creator? Is your best role that of child-rearing? How does every action you take impact every human around you and what are the ripple effects that might spill out across the planet?

By evaluating your strength in all four, you decide which ones you're naturally strong in, and those are the strengths you can use to help the world. The weak ones? Work on them. They'll never be strong, but if you ignore them, they'll atrophy to the point where they drag the others down.

These are not separate quadrants, they interact and react with each other. Extreme anger also causes physical effects. Extreme sadness, too, and happiness. HOWEVER, if the only way you notice your emotions is because of their physical effect, then you are emotionally weak - you should be able to sense your emotions BEFORE they cause a physical effect.

And then you use your mental powers to determine different ways of behaving, so that you are more likely to be in situations where you will experience emotions you prefer, rather than ones you don't, which will of course, improve your connection to the fabric of humanity.


Deep stuff, but it works.


WMM

Of course, when you have ADHD there is often a missing link in that connection between feeling and thinking

and we don't sense our emotions before they cause a physical effect.

And actually, this happens to some extent to every person. Google "heartbreak is it a real thing?"

daveddd
02-16-16, 02:47 PM
With my first dog Bella, I taught her to attack on command. Well, to run and jump on the person and lock her mouth on their arm.

Of course, I only demonstrated this on myself with protective padding, but I wanted her to know the command just in case.

My current dog is super protective of me, so it's not something I need to train in her. She would no doubt protect me and bite someone (HARD - she doesn't have a soft mouth like Bella did) if they were trying to cause me harm.

She is very wary of strangers and protective of her pack. My own personal guard dog. (She is super sweet with me and my fiancé, and is okay with people as long as I introduce them to her in the correct way.)

What kind of dogs are these trained killers?

SB_UK
02-16-16, 03:32 PM
Emotional
Physical
Spiritual
Mental

isn't it usually ?

mind ----|
body-----|- operating through emotion
spirit --|

mental disorder relating to understanding of reality - feel bad if understanding bad
physical disorder relating to structure of body - feel bad if eat / exercise poorly
spiritual disorder relating to alignment with morality - feel bad if the world is a worse place for your presence

so physical [subjective] <- mental [objective] <- social [group] ie 3 transcendental relationships - our goal is to settle them into synchrony ie optimal survival characteristics in all 3 - to ensure we don't feel bad on any of the three levels.

however - emotion is operated by mind/body/spirit and isn't anything in and of itself - a bit like a weapon [emotion] isn't bad until a human being picks it up.

You should be able to completely ignore the nature of emotion if you can get mind/body/spirit environment and therefore mind/body/spirit structures optimized.

SB_UK
02-16-16, 03:50 PM
Can solve these three using branches of science

mind - physics (theory of everything)
body - medical epidemiology
spirit - social epidemiology

maths and medicine - m&m 's to the rescue

Little Missy
02-16-16, 05:35 PM
You might have to be careful with this. If she does attack someone, even if it is to protect you, she could get into serious trouble.

And have a real good insurance policy too. :)

mildadhd
02-17-16, 12:51 AM
Yes, the SEEKING system is involved. Your children want something, just not vegetables. I can remember how hard it was to swallow green peas at that age. But a chocolate bar , that's a different story. There are 3 different types of primary affective feelings. Sensory affect (example DISGUST), Homeostatic affect (example HUNGER) and Emotional affect (example SEEKING). I am focusing on physical primary emotional affect in all mammals. Awesome discussion, feelings and thoughts appreciated. I want to think about this thread discussion, before I reply more.

mildadhd
02-17-16, 01:22 AM
SB_UK

How does a lack of emotional-self-regulation influence morality? (in general)

SB_UK
02-17-16, 05:03 AM
Yes, the SEEKING system is involved. Your children want something, just not vegetables. I can remember how hard it was to swallow green peas at that age. But a chocolate bar , that's a different story. There are 3 different types of primary affective feelings. Sensory affect (example DISGUST), Homeostatic affect (example HUNGER) and Emotional affect (example SEEKING). I am focusing on physical primary emotional affect in all mammals. Awesome discussion, feelings and thoughts appreciated. I want to think about this thread discussion, before I reply more.

Sorry - I'm asking if SEEKING is involved when children don't want something.

So - we can prove that the vegetable is the ideal food for the child (rationally appealing) and is the most efficient food to grow (morally appealing) and can be grown locally (socially appealing) -
- but kids generally will not SEEK them out.

The point being - what happens when SEEKing (DA activation ie reward anticipation) is not activated but the child is required to SEEK.

Presumably - if the child hadn't desensitized their addictive substance seeking machinery ie excess exposure to meat, processed food, sugar, starch, dairy products, MSG, aspartame, high GI foods

- we've really messed up here you know -

then there'd be sensitivity (taste) from the vegetable.

Is failure to display DA activation (reward anticipation at vegetable eating) simply a neurochemical resistance syndrome ?

How do you re-instate DA activation on vegetable eating ?
One way is simply to stop eating - when you come to eating - any food type is appealing.

-*-

So

1.Distress of Western living (ie not obtaining reward from helping other people and instead following the 'greed' reward system which is addictive in nature - addiction = 'happy' neurotransmitter resistance syndromes - ie you always need more of these and lose senstivity to them)
results
2. In the global diabetes and obesity epidemic and all other diseases too as related to diabesity (Alzheimer's, inflammatory, cancer)
together meaning
3. Resistance to 'happy' neurotransmitters occurs through chronic distress exposure and chronic psychoactive food consumption
meaning that
4. Foods with no psychoactive (vegetable) components fail to excite.

So we have -
spiritual disorder (not acting socially)
together with
mental disorder (not developing a mind which is rationally + morally appointed)
together with
physical disorder (the wrong foods)

giving rise to a complete collapse in human wellbeing.

-*-

What's key here ?
Why do ADDers need reward activation / punishment deactivation ina bottle ?
Because we're not obtaining any reward from what we do

Why ?
Because any idiot can copy somebody else (ie standard education/workplace functioning) - but the ADDer needs some special spark which comes from (at least when the ADDer is older) knowing that what they're doing has a higher point to it.

So - likely that the developing ADDer mind expresses itself (if it develops) through needing to align itself with morality - as it (the mind) gains the capacity (through learning) to know morality.

Yes - but what does the child need to do to gain reward ?
Simply learn at an age appropriate level - where it's clear that the ADDer has a developmental trajectory which differs from nonADDer and where observations like balance issues - perhaps mean that physical education of co-ordination is key. Furthermore - we need to shutdown the age inappropriate education and poor food intake profile as self-medication (see above and Peripheral's 'rat park' expt) - as compounding distress (see ADDF/MeADD823 in the classroom).

Why do some ADDers drop behind and some speed ahead ?
Observing an Inattentive with developmental delay - absolutely no power to concentrte and dexedrine (not that we can get it for him0 helps.

A speeding ADDer ?
Simply language-gifted - able to do anything that's expected - but no intrinsic interest.
Intrinsic interest governed by asking questions of subject matter which are not taught ie does the minimum.

Why do nonADDers show interest ?
ADDer has a 'from 1st principles' approach ie we need to build everything from the most fundamental level - hence need to use Theory of Everything to back us into the relationship between the 4 forces of nature - into the structural basis to the 4 (3 + 1) forces of chemistry, into the 4 (3 + 1) forces of social structure formation ... ... ... whereas the nonADDer has no such first principle stipulation and so can attribute motivation on shifting sands.

-*-

So - we've a clear pattern here (as mentioned many times over) - that there's a different organizing principle in the ADDer mind.

The ADDer mind is only happy when it self-organizes to wisdom - whereas the nonADDer can get waylaid.
In such a way - the ADDer can impart the corrrect structure of mind on nonADDer - but the nonADDer needs to keep asking questions - since the lessons of history are that each time ADDer mind tries to create an understanding of reality ... ... some high priest gets involved and tries to take the power of 'God' for themself.

-*-

So - we have a different profile of what's optimal (emotional + physical) in nonADDer and ADDer where what's optimal for the ADDer will be optimal for the nonADDer - but where the nonADDer can excel in metrics in this current world over the ADDer - the trick to unravelling this, though, is that the metrics are false metrics of improvement.

So - the ADDer tendency towards aerobic functioning will probably mean reduced anaerobic formation in contact sports.
The ADDer won't be able to absorb themselves in 1 molecular area - as our mind 'll be screaming - yes it's easy - but what's the point ?

-*-

How can we prove that there's a different structure of mind in ADDer vs nonADDer ?
The pattern of evolution is towards efficient information storage - and this is compatible with 'wisdom' structure of mind in nonADDer being gifted (not negotiable) in ADDer.

But why would you gift ADDer with a capacity which nonADDer has to struggle to achieve ?
The evolutionary process isn't malign - and wants us to make evolutionary improvement - I believe that what happens is that the end-point of the precursor species becomes the starting point of the subsequent species. This means that evolutionary progress banks what was previously aspirational and puts in place somehing more aspirational - as incentive to reaching, surpassing, banking and then discovering a higher (exponential) aspirational pursuit - in keeping with increasing Universal informational entropy - to engage in.

-*-

So - what doesn't make sense ?
Simply - human beings are meant to cultivate a reward system (obtain reward) from exercising creativity towards making the world a more enjoyable, fun, informationally rich, creative, exciting place ... ... and the net consequence will (shifting us from the abstraction layer of mind which is dead) to quality (art) - meaning nothign to do with pointless modern artists with no skill or mind and that're just greedy and in league with bankers - but into the true nature of art (see music activating the dopaminergic system) - of art ACTUALLY producing pleasure.

So - what doesn't make sense ?
That's all very easy and simply is a statement that 'love conquers all' - the core problem though is that whilst everybody is stating this - nobody is doin git.

So - what doesn't make sense ?
Is how can we get people to do what the words mean ?

In order to do what a word means - you need to be fixed to the correct definition of a word - and this is what wisdom is.

So - we need a species enlightenment event.

Will this occur simply through talking or is there some 'larger' event which'll occur with emergence of a moral mind underpinning individual action ?
I'd like to think that what's going to happen will be (in line with selection of the fittest) - all organisms housing neuromelanin (as the basis for radiotrophic fungal metabolism) ie the cat, dog, primate and man - adopting our equivalent of photosynthesis and going gamma radiation powered ... .... and there's even mention of escaping the need for oxygen usage ... ...

All of the above can be scientifically verified by studying the impact of gamma radiation on wikiP/radiotrophic fungae - particularly the ones that grow in space (on rockets) and which have been reported to be problematic for man in space travel.

-*-

But what if I don't want to leave the planet ?
Not a problem - there's simply an elimination of the one 'thing' that you need to survive ... ... it's simply evolutionary selection for pathways which promote survival.

What am I going to do with all of this quality time if I'm no longer required to waste my life in a job ?
Acquire personal quality - be as good as you can be - with group betterment as your goal.

What sorts of things will I do ?
Simply everything that's currently considered a hobby - will (under the cover) - since it's motivational (activates DA ie reward anticipation / seeking) - be the things that you do.

The hidden point is that anything that people do without expectation of pay, anything that people do for fun - must be motivational - and so these're the types of behaviour which'll be retained.

But what about the damaging behaviours which people do for fun ?
eg extreme contact sports

Personally - I have no interest in beating another person up - and think that the underlying thrust in any sport which involves victory through hurting another person is simply a self-medication or learned behaviour in an immoral world ?
IE just as the rats don't take drugs in a nice social environment - human beings won't choose hobbies which exert pain on themselves or others (boxing, rugby) in a sensible world.

Not convinced - can we derive experimental evidence on which human pursuits are in man's best and not in man's best interests ?
Experimental evidence (eg dementia in boxers and rugby players) can be derived - but there was no need to understand the neurobiology of opiate addiction in rat park - the problem was PREVENTED - which is the true nature of medicine ... ... and thereby further interventions were not required.

-*-

So let me get this right ?
All that you're suggesting is that people learn what is rationally in the best interests of people (and themselves) and then do it - and as they learn and do - they become personally rewarded and rewarded from the pleasure they see others exhibit.

Yes.



Just to addopt correct motivation.
Which follows on naturally from correct (moral/rational) education.


The rest

- evolutionary progress - will occur naturally.

SB_UK
02-17-16, 05:16 AM
SB_UK

How does a lack of emotional-self-regulation influence morality? (in general)

Lack of emotional self-regulation (being emotionally labile) will confound morality.

You need to have a level-head to assess what is right and what is wrong.

Flying off the handle (ie using any approach which doesn't involve an explanation which is defended) - just results in 1 individual either failing or succeeding (for the wrong reasons) in getting their own way.

-*-

Core issue here - is that the mind is supposed to be a thing which knows (mechanistically and without attachment) what is right from what is wrong ?

We'll observe decreasing emotional lability as the individual attains wisdom ?

-*-

Wisdom doesn't know everything - it simply knows the right questions to ask to uncover the moral approach.

Problem in this current world - is that when people are pursuing immorality at deeply esoteric levels in language - it can be difficult to deconvolute problems - luckily we can swoop in and to the questions of ?

How do we construct the best possible law on immigration ?
How do we construct the idea economic system ?
How do we construct cures for {insert major disease) ?
How do we prevent unpleasant ageing ?
How do we ensure all people have food ?

We can simply PREVENT all of these problems by simply introducing -

- a system of local community positive energy zero carbon self-build dwellings and local aquaponics organic vegetable farming facilities with low impact public transport link between hamlets permitting anybody to engage in anything that's within cycling distance.

Your choice.

Noting that public transport is about to get so much faster with the Musk/MIT 'hyperloop' and the fully open wireless internet feeding local holography - ie these 2 low impact tech innovations together - will mean that we achieve physical, mental and spiritual freedom ie we can go anywhere, learn anything and be social - whilst safe-guarding the planet -

a freedom which we can use to make ourselves better - in the knowledge that becoming better takes the species in a positive direction, towards a good place - where everybody is happy.

The Theory of Everything needs to be released though - that'll put an end to the current madness.

Theory of Everything - Vedanta - End of Knowledge - Beginning of Quality (the true renaissance -> group resurrection).

Key aspect to ToE - evolution/creation looks forwards not back.
Don't dream of going backwards - dream of making the future unimaginably better.

SB_UK
02-17-16, 05:24 AM
So - what' s left ?
[1] A common consensus that we'd like to adopt a different reward system.
[2] Global economic system being wound down.
[3] A global, positive energy, connected sustainable house-building initiative in hamlets
[4] A ToE-based education which ensures that all systematizing is empathizing-friendly ie rational and moral
[5] Elimination in distress / self-medication ie environmental factors which drive human beings into addictive (by definition bad for us) pursuits
[6] A collective investigation into what is fun ?

Personal observation

Man - engineering (eg cycle maintenance in real world or modelling in the informational world) + sun + silence + exercise + shed + aural informational stream + dog
+woman + female child
Prediposed to systematizing work

Woman - art + sun + silence + cat + gardening + visual informational stream
+ man + male children
Prediposed to empathizing work

Pair bond gives rise to systematizing - empathizing duality ie an entity which would like to do what's best for others.

-*-

Are we going to investigate the stars (Stephen Hawking) ?
If the radiotrophic fungus can do it - so can we - however we can do so much more on planet Earth - perhaps that's for the future if people want it.

Increasing level of production of movies -
Interstellar, Tomorrowland
- which're pointing towards a positive future for man.

Problem ?
Still industrial heavy ie not enough emphasis on preserving the natural ecoystem and manipulating information (the hologram) ie we don't need to make things.

I think that what we need to do is to determine how it is that we can train to become better (cerebellar articulation between sensory and motor loops) - and then become better with in-built reward achieved through becoming better.

Do we have to become better an better ?
No - predisposition to wisdom confers the capacity (when wise) to be happy through plain existence in the sun.

So - does wisdom kill the innovation motivation ?
No - it's a much more complicated model of mind which forces deep though prior to introducing innovation - you can't see the potholes unless your eyes are open.

So - wisdom simply eliminates the need for reward opening the individual's eyes to the true nature of innovation ?
Yes.

-*-

Future prospects for man ?
Let's just do what we know and see where we end up when we're there ... ... as I suspect that we'll find that doors open at each level of complex collaboration - meaning - that the fun will never end.

-*-

So - what you're suggesting is the adoption of a collaborative and not destructive reward system through changing profile of education which facilitates individuals in attaining wisdom - a place in which although an individual is happy - won't destroy innovation but will enable intelligent innovation ?
Yes - this is the combination of wisdom structure of mind + molecular expertise.

But you've stated that molecular expertise is the problem ?
Not a problem until the Systems level (wisdom) mind is acquired first - at which point it becomes a positive boon.

-*-

So - what you're suggesting in a nutshell - is that if people are enforcedly driven towards collective betterment - that specilizations will actually serve to make the world better ?
And that through specializations - the group can act so much more effectively than the individual.
Yes.

-*-

Summarising the entire story of man (and ADHD as evolutionary advancement) in one word
Love

You must be motivated by love not money (and associated)
- an attribute ('right intention') which is imparted by one's educational and social environment.

SB_UK
02-17-16, 05:51 AM
What's missing ?
I'd really like it if we could transcend the need to eat to survive - note not the ability to appreciate quality in food - just the need to eat to survive.

And we'll then overpopulate the planet ?
No - as the transition occurs in parallel with group enlightenment ie the compulsion to do what's right (which we see from global demographic patterns in ageing populations is towards profound depopulation eg in certain islands of Japan where there are no young people).

-*-

A small part of this argument - including the general idea that a monkey could never imagine life with a mind ... ... is that group enlightenment will bring with it a different perspective which can't be fully captured from this point in our evolutionary growth - so am going to suggest that it may be impossible to characterize fully in words the existence of an experienial perspective which requires us to 'be' there.

Also - as Stephen Hawking's writes - ToE is to know the 'mind of God' - we're gifted a view into a deterministic evolutionary progression which is outside of our capacity to imagine ... ... and which we're programmed to be drawn to -

- and so the superficial unpleasantness of determinism is cast as a guarantee that life will get ever better - as long as we get with the program and ensure that we (Stabile - social impulse) work together to make life as great as is (un)imaginable.

SB_UK
02-17-16, 06:02 AM
[1] So - imagine being able to go anywhere on the planet and quickly.

[2] Being able to become good (with practice) at anything ie we'll optimize teaching protocols to ensure gain without pain - the secret here is 'automatizing' ie practicing without engaging the mind which invariably states that it's bored. As flexible as a mountain climber.

[3] We'll be able to access all people, all information, all entertainment at the touchable holography level whereever we are.

[4] There'll be an in-built motivation in people to communicate not obfuscate.

[5] You won't be burdened by ownership of stuff - but will have access to the highest quality stuff (all shared with all others). How do people stand the weight of having to have stuff ?

[6] Every procedure we follow will be sustainable and better - creative ie the goal is to generate better - so pursued through building self-sustaining ecosystems (permaculture).

[7] In-built motivation - we'll want to do everything we {{{do}}}.

[8] Elimination of co-ercion.

[9] A life in pursuit of beauty.

... ... and they all lived happily ever after (as we all knew they wouid)*


* even if 'they' had us going there for a moment with their Bildeberger, Illuminati, Elysium, war-mongering, burn the planet
rhetoric**.

** nonsense

http://youtubeonrepeat.com/watch/?v=1umgAHvOmnY
Don't worry - they do get better


-*-

All innovation for vision above available except touchable holography (... to be released soon ...)

SB_UK
02-17-16, 06:21 AM
2 very important Shinoda laboratories (from the perspective of human quality)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nlnRpFoBLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90InQCCXXaM

Confusing what is real.

Reality is an illusion albeit a persistent one subscribing to String Theory's Holographic principle.

mildadhd
02-18-16, 09:29 PM
Babies are selfish.

Memory is learned.

Emotional-self-regulation is learned.

Morality is learned.

Primary raw emotional behaviors are not learned.

Unconditioned primary emotional response systems + experiences = emotional implicit memories, in early life.

Our early preverbal implicit memories "confound" our secondary behaviors, throughout life.

We humans can learn to make this period of family development less distressful, for everyone.

I am guaranteeing if we do, it will work.

Lunacie
02-18-16, 10:46 PM
Babies are selfish.

Memory is learned.

Emotional-self-regulation is learned.

Morality is learned.

Primary raw emotional behaviors are not learned.

Unconditioned primary emotional response systems + experiences = emotional implicit memories, in early life.

Our early preverbal implicit memories "confound" our secondary behaviors, throughout life.

We humans can learn to make this period of family development less distressful, for everyone.

I am guaranteeing if we do, it will work.

I believe research shows that babies have an innate (inborn) sense of morality.

It gets fine-tuned or adjusted by our experiences with parents and others.

mildadhd
02-18-16, 11:21 PM
I believe research shows that babies have an innate (inborn) sense of morality.

It gets fine-tuned or adjusted by our experiences with parents and others.

What is it, "(inborn) sense of morality"?

We might be talking about similar things?

Lunacie
02-18-16, 11:44 PM
I can't find any sources without advertising.

I googled "do babies have morality?"

mildadhd
02-18-16, 11:54 PM
I can't find any sources without advertising.

I googled "do babies have morality?"

What do you believe it is, "(inborn) sense of morality"?

mildadhd
02-19-16, 12:18 AM
I believe the primary 7 unconditioned emotional response systems inside our brains are to promote survival.

Example, the instinctual RAGE/Fight response system is to promote survival.

SB_UK
02-19-16, 04:08 AM
Babies are selfish.
yes
Memory is learned.
yes
Emotional-self-regulation is learned.
yes
Morality is learned.
yes
Primary raw emotional behaviors are not learned.
yes
Unconditioned primary emotional response systems + experiences = emotional implicit memories, in early life.
Does this mean that kids remember 'things' when attached to an emotion ie emotions required to drive learning - that's interesting.
Negative and Positive emotions.
Where what we require are positiive emotions (sense of achievement) to underlie learning since fear of failure in rote learning material does work - but it's in one ear and out the other ? How do we make learning fun becomes the key question ?
Our early preverbal implicit memories "confound" our secondary behaviors, throughout life.
Does this mean that if we begin development of mind by negative emotions (stick) that distress results in the incapacity to locate positive emotions to underlie learning ? That sounds like it's true also.
We humans can learn to make this period of family development less distressful, for everyone.
yes
I am guaranteeing if we do, it will work.
yes


How does one find a mechanism of teaching which works (which the student finds fun) - can be done but needs to be student-led ?

I'd suggest to reduce learning into word and number games crosswords and sudoku in which the individual learns verbal and numeric reasoning by computer game.

Ahhh! but what about all of the datapoint facts like dates doodah did a whoopsy in lalaland ? None of that is necessary - we can pick up anything we'd like with verbal and numeric reasoning as and when we like ... ... the datapoints aren't important - what's important is the capacity to entertain datapoints when the time comes.
Personal experience of secondary education is that it's geared towards those who're fastest in numeric/verbal reasoning - anyone who can juggle these skills will do well.

So - why isn't speed of capacity in numeric/verbal reasoning a measure of intelligence ?
Because being slower to develop doesn't mean that one will not develop (in an educational system which allows people to mature at different rates) to the same (or even higher) level.

If ADD is 'having a mind which takes longer to develop better' because of a different organizing principle within the mind - then it will (when it develops) develop better.

The human mind is not worth having unless it's wholly consistent with ALL observational data.

SB_UK
02-19-16, 04:29 AM
Emotion–memory interactions occur at various stages of information processing, from the initial encoding and consolidation of memory traces to their long-term retrieval.
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v7/n1/full/nrn1825.html

Balance games (underlying physical world pursuits)
Number games (underlying mental ie systematizing ie abstraction handling world pursuits)
Word games (underlying spiritual/social ie effective communication world pursuits)

Need to be taught intensely at primary school and beyond..

It all goes wrong when we simply hand the child a book and tell them to absorb and regurgitate.

Balance/number/word games improve the individual.
Bulk learning noise not so.

ie we retain balance, numeric and word handling schools for life but we lose information (taught in schools) which is not re-inforced.

Why do we teach kids the information that is taught in school ?
Because it has always been done this way - because it's easy.

What is the purpose of education ?
To acquire morality.

So -

+ emotion -> PLAY (balance,word,number) -> towards acquisiton of morality
Then
acquisition of morality -> expression of morality -> PLAY -> + emotion

ie we switch (as we make the transition to wisdom) -
the role of emotion as primary governing learning to secondary conditional on moral functioning.

The great trap which we need to avoid is learning which does not take us towards the mind which knows how, the body which does and the reward system which is rewarded by true social behaviour.

Or 'love'.

What is love ?
It's a force which results from the completion of each evolutionary structure which keeps the evolutionary structure in place.
A social impulse which can be explained by the observation that all structures in reality undergo standing wave eversion - and this means - all structures simultaneously trurnign inside out ... ... as completed structures converge on a zero point (Big Bang node) the completed structure feels a 'force' which represents the force of structural cohesion/completion.
Only felt when a structure is complete and the subsequent evolutionary structure begins.

SB_UK
02-19-16, 04:37 AM
What is it, "(inborn) sense of morality"?

We might be talking about similar things?

A baby will naturally go one of two ways conditional on environmental exposure.

If you constantly beat a child - the child will seek self-medication - which is addictive.

If the child receives reward through getting with the program of transition to morality then towards morality the child will go.

In much the same way that a dog can be trained to be vicious or can be trained (by extreme socialization) not to be.

In the current world where people are trained to fear the poor, fear the unemployed, fear the migrant, fear the coloured, fear the homosexual - we see people (in effect) receiving the same training that people employ with dogs to harm other dogs.

Everybody is a victim of their environment - and everybody can be an expression of morality - physical, mental and social environment conditional.

-*-

What we need is intelligent teaching and an intelligent society which arises through listening to intelligent teaching ?

Simply local positive energy zero carbon community led food and home generation schemes - and then to be proud of what you've done and then to realise that what remains of your time - is there to become BETTER.

To become highly flexible, to master language to code attractive audio and visual presentations, to have a perfectly socialized dog ... ... the choice is yours - though extreme primary education may well be the key

- with secondary education appearing to be somewhat of a muddle inspired by the pointless need to stratify people into order for placement into jobs where the rich can abuse the poor.

SB_UK
02-19-16, 04:47 AM
I believe the primary 7 unconditioned emotional response systems inside our brains are to promote survival.

Example, the instinctual RAGE/Fight response system is to promote survival.

Yes.

+ emotion (avoidance of - emotion) -> learning -> morality
-- pre-empts morality and therefore facilitates survival
morality -> + emotion
-- secondary to morality and therefore faciliates survival

It's impossible to consider survival (to man only) without considering the entire social group - as we're now in a place where technology has led us to a place where the species can be wiped out through the action of just a small handful of politicians in any of the rich nations.

The most powerful (so the theory goes ie as a motivation to become powerful) need to be the most psychopathic - so we've the interesting scenario - in that we've placed the most dangerous people in charge of the most dangerous weaponry.

I think it's time for the species to grow up.

-*-

So - Summarising - human evolutionary ascent

[1] Human beings want to have fun.
[2] Nobody can have fun unless we stop supporting the reward system of competition between man, and move into collaboration - since 10 billion collaborative units can innovate to a remarkable (innovation level may be unimaginable) extent.
[3] Collaboration mindset is supported by an educational system which permits people to become 'socialized' (like a dog) - which will confer the mindset that they are no better than any other person.
[4] This mindset is prevented by money - which through inequality results in the poor (generally from a country or a certain colour of skin) appearing less than - and to be feared.
[5] There's nothing intrinsically 'less than' about an individual that grows up in an impoverished physical, social, mental environment - people are simply products of their environment.
[6] Form an internet-based educational system (VERY easy to do - numeric, balance and verbal reasoning may be acquired on a 'puter - if we look at what the games industry does) - get all people into collaborative mode - and then encourage people to be the best that they can be - alongside others who aspire similarly.
[7] Money/power reward system crashes - and in its place - the reward system of personal fulfilment ie 'doing' because it brings you personal pleasure/reward so to do.
[8] Human beings live happily ever after under a subsequent instantiation of the Theory of Everything from 'understanding of reality' (ie ToE) to an informational (internal recognition pathways see Markram's 'Intense World Theory') (sensory information) paradigm.
[9] What this in effect means is that the completion of mind opens the doors to Huxley's (doors of perception) ie there's a specific key to the Doors of Perception which implicates a certain form of neural evolution which associates with amplifying the quality of sensory information which we (as neural organisms) are immersed within.
[10] So - that's all there is to it - our heads have the same underlying functionality that we've incorporated into tech of shifting the resolution (sound, image) ever higher - and enjoying the experience of learning/applying this new quality.

Note - the mental health spectrum of autism (systematizing sensitivity which moves into hypersensitivity ie disorder), ADHD (sensory sensitivity which moves into hypersensitivity ie disorder) and schizophrenia (empathizing sensitivity which moves into hypersensitivity ie disorder) suggests that these're the 3 quality loci where 'Intense world theory' evolution occurs at.

Summarising - human evolutionary ascent (basically sensitivity)
Neural mechanism (sensorimotor cortical cerebellar loop formation) - becoming of ever higher (personal,intrinsic) quality at physical (sensory,body), mental (systematizing) and spiritual (social, empathizing) levels as defined by the Markram mechanism ('hyper-functioning of local neural microcircuits, best characterized by hyper-reactivity and hyper-plasticity')*.
* (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3010743/)

SB_UK
02-19-16, 05:21 AM
Unconditioned primary emotional response systems + experiences = emotional implicit memories, in early life.
Does this mean that kids remember 'things' when attached to an emotion ie emotions required to drive learning - that's interesting.
Negative and Positive emotions.
Where what we require are positiive emotions (sense of achievement) to underlie learning since fear of failure in rote learning material does work - but it's in one ear and out the other ? How do we make learning fun becomes the key question ?

The progression of the disorder is proposed to be driven by overly strong reactions to experiences that drive the brain to a hyper-preference and overly selective state, which becomes more extreme with each new experience and may be particularly accelerated by emotionally charged experiences and trauma.

Sole issue here is of the need not to distress sensitivity in the learning process.

How do people of differing sensitivities learn ?

It has to be done in a non-competitive environment where each child can go at their own speed.

Personally I like to learn by myself with a computer and do not much appreciate the presence of other people - as distractions.

ADDers struggle with distractibility - just as Markram suggests - the autistic child might need a low stimulation environment to progress - so ADDer also.

Stimulation appears to over-excite the ADDer child - as you'd expect from the sensitivity predisposed.

SB_UK
02-19-16, 06:10 AM
--- Physico-/Bio-/Microbio-/Neuro-/Psycho-/Socio- chemical mechanism ---


Small chain fatty acid formation by neuromelanin [1] in the brain/mind feeding the biosynthetic machinery of the gut biome [2] (relationship between hydroxybutyrate and health-beneficial butyrate [3] bacteria) - would result in metabolic control without the need for food.
The close relationship between valproic acid (valproic acid model of autism [4]) and beta-hydroxybutyrate [5] (both histone deacetylase inhibitors [6]) -- a key therapeutic target in cancer/immune/mental [7] conditions ... ... ahhh ... ... HDACi should trigger formation of hyperfunctional (sensitive) ... ... the clear pattern we're observing here - is of an imminent evolutionary shift in man away from the need for food, and into radiation-driven small chain fatty acid formation - overcoming all 'Western disorders' in the process - and feeding formation of hyperfunctional/hyperreactive (ie sensitive) [8] neural circuitry underlying a deeper (more satisfying) relationship with reality [9].
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] - Experimental evidence collated.



Our key problem has been looking backwards instead of forwards for answers.


Quote:
Is it possible that we should be searching for the reason for ADD, not in the future but in the past?
Nope, but it’s an annoyingly popular idea. Don’t get us started. (grin…)

SB_UK
02-19-16, 06:15 AM
Just an evolutionary model employing emergence of novel characteristics which optimize survival potential.

Is evolution best characterized as operating towards selecting for factors which optimize survival of the species ?
This idea works but is grounded in materialism and doesn't give a rounded flavour of what evolution has in mind.

With advent of mind - plain survival was no longer enough.

Quality required; boredom the (distress mediated disorders) killer.

Lunacie
02-19-16, 11:03 AM
What do you believe it is, "(inborn) sense of morality"?

From what I'm reading, when given a choice of someone being nice and helpful or someone being mean and harmful, babies nearly always choose the nice and helpful one.

SB_UK
02-19-16, 12:46 PM
[1]
melanin (light) [parietal gland] -> <- melatonin (dark) [pineal gland]

[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye
The parietal eye ... can be divided into two major parts; the pineal gland (endocrine) and the parietal gland... if it is photoreceptive[3]
Among fish, lampreys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamprey) retain two functional "third" eyes, one developed from the parietal gland, and the other from the pineal gland. [4]
wikiP/vertebrate
The vertebrates traditionally include the hagfish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagfish), which do not have proper vertebrae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebra_%28anatomy%29), though their closest living relatives, the lampreys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamprey), do.[5]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15191229
Viewed this way, vertebrate or chordate origins are best understood as the novel imposition of an adaptively bilateral locomotory-skeletal-neural system,[6]
[serotonin precursor to] melatonin [dark] inhibits [dopamine precursor to] melanin [light]

[7]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8536922
The appearance of proopiomelanocortin early in vertebrate evolution: cloning and sequencing of POMC from a Lamprey pituitary cDNA library.[8]
[serotonin precursor to] melatonin [dark] inhibits [dopamine as stimulant precursor to] melanin [light] related to POMC opiate


StimulMelatonin - neuoprotective, neuromelanin protective
StimulSerotonin
Stimulant / |
Stimulant / | \ Narcotic basal balance

Melatonin - decreases free dopamine, increases neuromelanin.

a.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin_receptor
Research suggests that melatonin acts to inhibit the Ca2+-dependent release of dopamine.b.
http://www.pnas.org/content/97/22/11869.full.pdf
Neuromelanin biosynthesis is driven by excess cytosolic catecholamines not accumulated by synaptic vesicles^^^ caused presumably by

a.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin_receptor
Research suggests that melatonin acts to inhibit the Ca2+-dependent release of dopamine.-*-

Summarising
Evolution of vertebrate (bilateral symmetry) [nervous system complexity] from lamprey to enlightened man - from pineal -> <- parietal ie from one form of light controlled endocrine function another form of light controlled endocrine function

another form of light controlled endocrine function
gamma radiation
->-
neuromelanin/mitochondria
->-
ATP generation [like chloroplast light reaction]
->-
SCFA (short chain fatty acid formation) [like chloroplast dark reaction]
->-
hydroxybutyrate (HDACi) -> gut biome serotonin production -> wellbeing (bliss)
hydroxybutyrate -> neural network formation cf Markram Theory in valproic acid (similar to hydroxybutyrate) model of autism
SCFA -> appetite suppressant
HDACi -> growth retardant
ketone body -> treatment of epilepsy -> emotional stability (suppresses neural excitability)

-*-

Pattern
Evolution of vertebrates from lamprey to enlightened man - all about survival - elimnating the need for organisms with neuromelanin to locate food in order to survive.

Of note - man and dog have neuromelanin within their heads.

SB_UK
02-19-16, 01:04 PM
That's a species solar [circadian UV] to lunar [monthly infradian gamma irradiation] cycle evolutionary transition

- in keeping with the evolutionary pattern of increasing periodicity in constructs from the very first phenomenological construct - Planck time - ever longwards.

SB_UK
02-20-16, 04:42 AM
emotional and physical?

The [Intense World] theory is centered on the neocortex and the amygdala.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3010743/

neocortex -> physical -> sensory perception
amygdala -> emotional -> ... ... ...

What would an individual who is sensitive to information use emotion for ?
Although tempting to suggest there'd be no ned for emotion - emotion could simply be rediscovered.

Can we experience 'Quality' wihtout emotion ?

So - an evolutionary [neocortical - amygdaloid] connection characterized by increased sensitivity in this pathway.

Neocortex - higher functions

generation of motor commands - [BODY]
sensory perception - [BODY]

spatial reasoning

conscious thought - SYSTEMATIZING [MIND]
language - EMPATHIZING [SPIRIT/SOCIAL]

-*-

hyper-perception, hyper-attention, hyper-memory and hyper-emotionality.

hyper-perception - yes - just sensitivity to sensory information
hyper-attention - yes- just hyperfocus
hyper-memory - if memory relates to emotion - and we're hyperemotional - then yes
hyper-emotionality - yes - just sensitivity

-*-

So - the core problem with sensitivity is that it must not be immersed in a 'noisy' environment.

Increased sensitivity translates to pain (hyper-/over-sensitive).

Our particular concern regarding the intense world theory centers on drastic suggested treatments forindividuals with autism, namely withdrawing stimulation during infancy. The Markrams do not merely hint at such interventions, but explicitly spell them out.

HSPs have been described as having qualities of ... need for quiet (usually alone)

SB_UK
02-20-16, 04:48 AM
So - simply - what is ADHD ?

It's the evolutionary acquisition of a novel capacity (sensitivity) at the level of function attributed to the neocortex.

[Learning [automatising ie becoming intrinsically better (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_theory_of_dyslexia)] is characterized by neocortical sensori- cerebellar neocortical motor loop formation]

(This requires a pressing shift in reward system towards construction of neural networks which impart this novel character.)

We live in a world where we think that we become better if we beat people, but that is not true - other people are there to HELP *you* in becoming (and you then) better - it doesn't matter how 'good' somebody else's neural machinery is and whether you can 'prove' yours is better through contrived competition - all that matters is how good yours is.

You work on you, with the help (reciprocated) by others.
'love is a do word'
http://youtubeonrepeat.com/watch/?v=1umgAHvOmnY

Everybody wins.

However ... I still need an event which transfers us from chemical energy to radiation-powered ... ... ... as detachment from the material world reward system required us to lose the dependence relationship on conditionals.

Food (as we see in countries across the world) is not easy to come by - and even when it is - we appear to choose food which associates with our own demise.

How can we live a life of quality if we're in constant subservience to food ?

-*-

Neuromelanin looks very similar to the black pigmented radiotrophic ionization energy employing fungae - and we're constantly gamma-irradiated by sun and moon.

'black flowers* blossom'
http://youtubeonrepeat.com/watch/?v=1umgAHvOmnY

*chloroplast -> mitochondrial EM energy transduction.

It's really so obviously our next evolutionary character-in-waiting.

Shifting from a daily to a monthly clock cycle ?

That then would complete the story
- species-wide loss in material world attachment.

Any other possible outcomes ?
No - this particular scheme completely eliminates/prevents all of the problems human beings are failing to solve in their current lives.

mildadhd
02-20-16, 10:27 AM
From what I'm reading, when given a choice of someone being nice and helpful or someone being mean and harmful, babies nearly always choose the nice and helpful one.

Thanks.

Babies want.

Babies want things that feel good. (conscious positive emotional affective feelings) (rewards) (like)

Babies do not want things that feel bad. (conscious negative emotional affective feelings) (punishments) (dislike)

mildadhd
02-20-16, 10:42 AM
"We have certain human needs"

youtube.com/watch?v=Est6nay4Z5E

mildadhd
02-20-16, 09:42 PM
I think I should have wrote babies have certain emotional needs, instead of "babies are selfish".

Example, "attachment and attunement" (paraphrasing Dr. Mate)

SB_UK
02-21-16, 07:42 AM
I think I should have wrote babies have certain emotional needs, instead of "babies are selfish".

Example, "attachment and attunement" (paraphrasing Dr. Mate)

So - wisdom (maturity of mind) represents the transition from emotional needs (dependence) to no emotional needs (independence) ?

The programmed attachment of man-woman, woman-child which culminates (with wisdom) in setting them free.

'selfish' and 'have certain emotional needs' are great synonyms - since it strips the pejorative nature of 'selfishness' away - into a necessary aspect of man - which though we may transcend - if being happy is of any interest to the individual.

Loss of emotional attachment is replaced by morality attachment which represents a shift from the wellbeing in those connected to you - into a mindset which desires wellbeing in all people (naturally taking those who were connected to you) into account.

Emotional attachments aren't useful for the happy survival of those who you're emotionally attached to; you need to do what's right and not what you're compelled into doing to make them happy.

Feeding your kids sugar and starch makes them happy - but the mind knows that you're killing them in the process; emotional attachment in the absence of morality/rationality pre-empts protracted painful premature death of those with whom we're emotionally attached.

mildadhd
02-21-16, 08:59 AM
We have certain basic human needs throughout life. Attachment and attunement promote development of emotional-self-regulation and morality, throughout life. Especially during early preverbal period of development.

Example: SEEKING, CARE and PLAY.

SB_UK
02-21-16, 10:06 AM
We have certain basic human needs throughout life. Attachment and attunement promote development of emotional-self-regulation and morality, throughout life. Especially during early preverbal period of development.

Example: SEEKING, CARE and PLAY.


Yes - transition to emotional independence (freedom) is conditional on supporting an individual's access to basic human needs throughout life ... ...

Especially during early preverbal period of developmentOnly reason that the parent neglects their child during this period in development is that the adult's career is just getting going and you are required (in our society) to discard your kid often immediately upon birth into full time care. The more successful you are - the more that discarding your child completely into full-time boarding school from the age of 5 becomes the way.

One of the many dysfunctional markers (which parents boast about) of having made it - to be able to send one's child away upon birth.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/boarding-is-as-damaging-as-being-taken-into-care-says-therapist-2274066.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/boarding-is-as-damaging-as-being-taken-into-care-says-therapist-2274066.html)
Professor Schaverien, who identified the syndrome after 30 years of treating former boarders, said: "Children need to grow among people who love them...

According to the BSA, family tradition is still important, but many children now board because parents – working long hours – don't have the time to spend with them during the week.

Pretty sure that I can prove that every parent who sends their child into boarding is not doing anything worthwhile in their day job.

Why ?

Because nobody does anything worthwhile in their day job.

Best we manage is somebody trying to stop someone else from falling when somebody else pushes them over.

Lunacie
02-21-16, 11:43 AM
I think I should have wrote babies have certain emotional needs, instead of "babies are selfish".

Example, "attachment and attunement" (paraphrasing Dr. Mate)

Is the need for self-care the same thing as being selfish?

Is self-care an inborn instinct that is lost as we begin to consider the needs of others, and start placing their needs ahead of our own?

Maybe it's only women who are taught to do that though.

mildadhd
02-21-16, 06:03 PM
Is the need for self-care the same thing as being selfish?

Is self-care an inborn instinct that is lost as we begin to consider the needs of others, and start placing their needs ahead of our own?

Maybe it's only women who are taught to do that though.

Not sure what you mean?

Is self-care, similar to self-compassion/self-parenting?

I think any gender could possibly suffer from low self-esteem and benefit from self-compassion/self-parenting.

Is that what you mean by self-care?

When all capitalized, I am referring to the primary emotional response systems. (for example, see CARE/nurturance post 45 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1786554&postcount=45))

mildadhd
02-21-16, 07:31 PM
Babies cannot take care of themselves. The mammalian primary CARE/nurturance system inside the infant's brain needs a relationship with a more mature primary CARE/nurturance system (and secondary memories and tertiary awareness) inside the more mature caregiver's brain, to both be exercised/developed. Like our sensory (visual) affective system needs light. The attachment relationship between child and adult is needed for the mammalian emotional affective system to develop, strengthen and work.

Lunacie
02-21-16, 08:04 PM
I think this thread has wandered off the posted topic. ;)

mildadhd
02-21-16, 08:15 PM
I think this thread has wandered off the posted topic. ;)

Right on topic actually. The physical emotional systems inside all our brains.

SB_UK
02-22-16, 03:27 AM
The Simon Baron Cohen idea of

2 systematizing parents giving rise to parents with greater risk of autism is about to come up again.

The Markrams (with autistic children) were both scientists.

-*-

Like our sensory (visual) affective system needs light

So - in the absence of an attachment relationship but the presence of all things required for survival - what defects in development would we observe ?

In studies on children who board sent to nursery from an early age / into boarding school from an early age - they become extremely aggressive / competitive.

SB_UK
02-22-16, 03:28 AM
Why ?

Attachment (Peripheral) associates with DA / OP activation.
In the absence of 1 form of drug-soothing behaviour - the child will opt for another ?

Dominance relationships.

SB_UK
02-22-16, 03:29 AM
Why does absence in attachment lead to autism ? (Simon Baron Cohen)
Stress-driven evolution ?
Evolution is driven by necessity ?
Have to think yourselves out of danger - giving rise to the systematizing mind ?

SB_UK
02-22-16, 03:32 AM
^^^ connects SBC's ideas on autism enriched in geeky parents (one of his titles) and his interest in absence in empathy - which underlie (for one reason or another) - autism / extreme alpha male (his title) association to an empathy less state.

SB_UK
02-22-16, 03:45 AM
So -
looks like we've inherited sensitivity prediposition which is a good thing.

But the prediposition requires training (as you'd expect with any neural condition)

Training at the empathic level, sensory level, systematizing level, balance level as a base-line in further developments.

Absence in 'signals' ie poor attachment fails to nurture appropriate development of the empathic system (it becomes too sensitive (see Intense World Theory) in order to pick up parentally transmitted training signals ?) and then can't handle the information.

We need to develop propensity for sensitivity slowly.

-*-

So - this idea suggests that appropriate environmental stimuli at the 4 levels above is essential for proper brain development - particularly key in the child with predisposition for forming internal neural networks associated with sensitivity ?

-*-

Thinking about this ^^ don't know if it matches data.

-*-

Summarising
Sensitivity prediposition (see Markram) in the absence of training stimuli (eg inappropriate light access linked to myopia, E-S theory of autism) results in hypersnesitivity (stress-mediated) (an attempt by the organism to survive in an adverse environmentla condition) ?

SB_UK
02-22-16, 06:07 AM
We have certain basic human needs throughout life. Attachment and attunement promote development of emotional-self-regulation and morality, throughout life. Especially during early preverbal period of development.

Example: SEEKING, CARE and PLAY.

SEEKING - development of the foundations of enquiry - required for mind
CARE - development of the foudnations of empathy - required for social behaviour, language development
PLAY - development of balance, language, enquiry, sensory systems - required for the further development of all 4 aspects of quality.

So simply appropriate environment for the proper development of the essence of what life will come to mean - development of quality in these subsystems.

Too little environmental stimulation and either over-growth of sensitivity or loss of sensitivity?
Too much stimulation and loss of senesitvity also (negative feedback) ?

How much is enough ?

-*-

This basic idea simply suggests that as of becoming 'neural' people - training environment is everything and we live in a world where the training environment is so skewed that people develop lop-sided.

Ideally you'd want everybody to attain exquisite sensitivity at every level -
sensory, balance, empathizing, systematizing

and it should be manageable as long as life is an exercise in 'education'.

All of the above qualities are incorporated into education but not in the right way.

Meaning ? That people don't actually acquire these qualities - people acquire the ability to pass an exam which is supposed to mean that they have achieved ability but actually haven't in these qualities.

So - the entire educational/workplace experience or life should be re-interpreted as an exercise in learnign (acquiring personal quality).

SB_UK
02-22-16, 06:18 AM
What don't I like about this idea ?

Physical environment -> neural development -> optimal emotional behaviour

ie Intense world theory connection between neocortex and amygdala

is how do we locate the sweet spot between too much and too little stimulation ?

distress - eustress - distress
->-
This is the basis to reality, medicine, physiology, neuroscience, psychology, 'quality' ie finding the sweet spot.

-*-

That's why this idea isn't attractive - because the only answer to this question - is that the individual will be naturally drawn towards the sweet spot ie can choose when they're going too slowly or too quickly as long as there's nobody (as there always is in the current Western style educationaland workplace environment) telling them that they have to be 'this' good at 'this' time.

ADHD - developmental delay - which may represent taking longer to become better - learning environment dependent -

- you won't take longer to become better if you're already on the rubbish heap in a low quality council home in a low quality slum in a low quality part of town as a victim of an inflexible external learning environemnt.

Learning - here - is used broad-sense to reflect all angles of an individual which represent 'quality'.

If we look at the educational/learnign environemnt - we've a dangerous viral overgrowth in 'science' (or rather technology) which isn't even resulting in quality on the systematizing level - because we're adopting technology immorally - producing ever so many problems in the process - from pharmaceutical to genetic modification to chemical corporations - highly sophisticated ultra-expensive science-based actually tech based operations which're in nobody's best interests bar the greedy guy (onceler) who sits atop 'their' behemoth.

-*-

So the neurone (neural development to quality) is WHOLLY development on aspects of the environment for learning.
PHYSICAL environment -> Neural network trainign -> Becoming better -> EMOTIONally happy

Re: emotional and physical?PHYSICAL - then takes the definintion of anything EXTERNAL which trains the internal environment.
EMOTION - then takes the definition of positive EMOTION if learning environment appropriate, negative EMOTION if learning environment bad ie emotion as state of the INTERNAL engine

Problem - too much and too little stimulation are both problematic.
Finding the appropriate level of stimulation relies on an individual to walk away when they've had enough or to up the difficulty when they've hit the ceiling.

-*-

But if we don't wield a stick will a child learn ?
Being human is all about learning - we only need a stick in the absence of having identified the appropriate way of teaching.

We could consider man to be parastically hosting a neural netowrk which seeks to grow (a bit like a virus) - the difference is, is that we benefit as the network grows and the network grows based on information rather than any chemical stimulus. Perhaps that's a good analogy - as the virus grows it requires more information to keep it in place - which we experience as greater quality in life ?

Have always liked the connection (they look the same - can't find the image on ADDF from years ago aligning them) of bacteriophage and neurone.

SB_UK
02-22-16, 07:06 AM
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1789588#post1789588
Our particular concern regarding the intense world theory centers on drastic suggested treatments forindividuals with autism, namely withdrawing stimulation during infancy. The Markrams do not merely hint at such interventions, but explicitly spell them out. Yet if the theory is incorrect, these treatments could be damaging. As studies of Romanian orphans (http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/investigator-profiles/2012/charles-nelson-searching-for-early-signs-of-autism) have strikingly shown, insufficient stimulation and impoverished neuronal input in early development are damaging to children’s social, cognitive and emotional functioning3 (https://spectrumnews.org/opinion/viewpoint/intense-world-theory-raises-intense-worries/#refs).

Always the same pattern.

is how do we locate the sweet spot between too much and too little stimulation ?

distress [too little] (Frith) - eustress - distress [too much] (Markram)
->-
This is the basis to reality, medicine, physiology, neuroscience, psychology, 'quality' ie finding the sweet spot.-*-

So - we know that the nerve can be activated by stimulus; the nerve wants to be 'sufficiently' stimulated neither too little or too much.
But that the nerve requires ATP - which requires some source.
It'd be idea if the virus could acquire its own energy to power its own growth; we'd experience this as needing to eat less and becoming more sensitive / of greater quality.

Nerve (valproic acid model) appears to like forming these highly sensitive structures in presence of HDACinhibitors.

Human beings only generate these HDACinhibitors when in effect not much eating or eatign a particular profile of foods - not going to be seen as attractive - and evolution isn't going to make human beings do something that they don't want.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2012/489830/
However, those studies have revealed that α-synuclein interacts with histones and inhibits histone acetylation [81, 82] and that several histone deacetylase inhibitors (HDACIs) are neuroprotective against α-synuclein-mediated toxicity [82, 84–87]. Particularly, studies performed in nigral neurons of mice exposed to the herbicide paraquat revealed that α-synuclein translocates into the nucleus and binds with histones [81]. Studies in Drosophila showed that α-synuclein mediates neurotoxicity in the nucleus, binds directly to histone H3, and inhibits histone acetylation. The toxicity of α-synuclein was rescued by the administration of HDACIs [82]. The inhibition of the histone deacetylase Sirtuin 2 rescued α-synuclein-mediated toxicity in several models of PD [84]. In addition valproic acid (VPA) resulted in inhibition of histone deacetylase activity and in an increase of histone H3 acetylation in brain tissues of rats and resulted neuroprotective in a rat model of PD (obtained with the administration of the mitochondrial toxin rotenone), counteracting α-synuclein translocation into the nuclei [85]. Studies in rat and human neuronal cell cultures also revealed that HDACIs prevent MPP+ -mediated cytotoxicity [86]. Neurotoxic pesticides and paraquat were shown to increase histone acetylation in mice brains or cell culture models [87, 88], and additional studies reported protective effects of HDACIs on dopaminergic neurons following a neurotoxic-induced insult [89, 90].
HDACi appears to be strongly neurprotective.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059606/
A single intra-peritoneal injection of valproic acid (VPA) on embryonic day (ED) 11.5 to pregnant rats has been shown to produce severe autistic-like symptoms in the offspring. Previous studies showed that the microcircuitry is hyperreactive due to hyperconnectivity of glutamatergic synapses and hyperplastic due to over-expression of NMDA receptors.

-*-

Why should valproic acid result in autism and be neuro-protective ?
There's a developmental program.

Growth and then Learning (arrangement) - must not use HDACi at too early a stage in the brain's developmental scheme.

SB_UK
02-22-16, 11:02 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3261274/
Over the past several years there has been intense effort to delineate the role of epigenetic factors, including methyl-CpG-binding protein 2, histone deacetylases, and DNA methyltransferases, in synaptic function. Studies from our group as well as others have shown that these key epigenetic mechanisms are critical regulators of synapse formation, maturation, as well as function.Really want to connect HDACi to learning (broad-sense)

:-)
Training powerfully modulated the response to HDACi treatment, increasing the total number of genes regulated to nearly 3000, including many not typically linked to neural plasticity, compared with <300 following HDACi administration alone.
A single learning episode dramatically shifts the gene expression profile induced by acute HDACi treatment, yielding a qualitatively distinct hippocampal transcriptome compared with the influence of behavioral training alone.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26290249


Starting to hot up.

That's a really important observation linking HDACi with supercharging broadsense learning.

Endogenous HDACi formation through asceticism.

It can be done by simply losing the primitive reward system (greed) but it'd be nice if the quality-knowing state of ketosis might be realised autonomously - though nutritional requirements for ketosis are low anyway.

-*-

The simple summary - is that 'greed' (the Insulin/IGF growth paradigm) will be the premature death of you; the human mind is meant to grow up.

SB_UK
02-22-16, 11:16 AM
So - we live in the age of stupid because people're stuffing themselves silly with growth promoting foods - not filling their minds with an enquiry into morality - what then follows is (unsurprisingly) unbelievable stupidity at every level of human operation.

Low quality existence for one and all.

That's neat to connect HDACi to actual learning.

-*-

So - in answer to the question of what use is the entire field of molecular biology / genetics to neuroscience ?
The simple answer is that molecular biology / metabolism teaches us the ideal environment for quality (learning) to proceed when the time is right.

Not too soon (eg valproic acid model) though since - presumably 'learning' (rearrangement,plasticity) needs to follow 'growth/migration'.

-*-

All of the common diseases we currently see are just 1 disease.

'Knowing right from wrong' and then individually/collectively doing 'right' is the cure.

Lunacie
02-22-16, 01:15 PM
The Simon Baron Cohen idea of

2 systematizing parents giving rise to parents with greater risk of autism is about to come up again.

The Markrams (with autistic children) were both scientists.

-*-


So - in the absence of an attachment relationship but the presence of all things required for survival - what defects in development would we observe ?

In studies on children who board sent to nursery from an early age / into boarding school from an early age - they become extremely aggressive / competitive.



I would suspect that the parents aren't giving good emotional support because they are likely borderline autistic themselves.

When my granddaughter Katlin was dx with ADHD, I realized that was the reason for my own difficulties, but somehow it didn't seem like the whole answer.

When her little sister Nove was dx with autism, I realized that I have that too, maybe never severely enough to be dx myself, but certainly borderline.

That with the anxiety and depression completes the picture of who I am.



Why does absence in attachment lead to autism ? (Simon Baron Cohen)
Stress-driven evolution ?
Evolution is driven by necessity ?
Have to think yourselves out of danger - giving rise to the systematizing mind ?

Again, I suspect that parents with borderline autism themselves are less likely to provide good emotional connection ... and also pass along the autism genes to their children.

I don't think we can point to an absence of attachment and affection as the sole cause of autism.

mildadhd
02-23-16, 12:02 AM
Maybe people born with more hypersensitive sensory affective temperaments (including some people with autism), emotionally want and need attachment and attunement like everyone else, but overwhelming and painful hypersensitive sensory responses interferes?

(not sure, adding the question to the thread discussion in regards to understanding the physical primary affects involved.)

"I have been talking and writing about sensory problems for over 20 years, and am still perplexed by many people who do not acknowledge sensory issues and the pain and discomfort they can cause. A person doesn't have to be on the autism spectrum to be affected by sensory issues."

-Dr Temple Grandin, The Way I See It


http://templegrandin.com/templehome.html

Lunacie
02-23-16, 12:22 AM
Maybe people born with more hypersensitive sensory affective temperaments (including some people with autism), emotionally want and need attachment and attunement like everyone else, but overwhelming and painful hypersensitive sensory responses interferes?

I'd say you got this one right. :)

SB_UK
02-23-16, 07:22 AM
Not quite there yet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26894820
Scientific literature exploring the value of assistance dogs to children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is rapidly emerging.

This is a reciprocal relationship which is not demanding ie the child will make no demands on the dog other than to be present, and the dog will make no demands on the child other than to be present.

No demands.

Both just do their own thing, and neither compel the other to do anything that they don't want.

When one helps the other - it's because they want to - and in the case of child - the desire is to feel reward from helping another.

This form of relationship should be the form of relationship which human beings utilize ie teaching for the benefit which arises from being of benefit to others.

Still - autism/schizophrenia are disorders even if lesser forms merge into normality (sensitivity).

SB_UK
02-23-16, 07:27 AM
How about - parents who're used to fighting (competitive nature) eg the nature of the academic - constantly fighting and not working with others to carve out a niche - increased prevalence of autism in academics

-- how about increased competition on the level of development of models of understanding (the academic) results in selection for heightened sensitivity on the level of empathy (social structure formation) as a reaction -

meaning that autism would be likely to

-- seems a bit like that's a case of forcing the model to fit the data.

Autism feels like it's a heightened sensitivity (which is not managed) at any of the levels of sensitivity of man.

Are balance issues seen in autism ?
The results were overwhelmingly consistent with the hypothesis that children on the autism spectrum may have motor impairments as part of their diagnosis. - See more at: http://www.healthcentral.com/autism/c/84292/151581/clumsiness-symptom/#sthash.lEwQYE6v.dpuf
sensory
empathic
balance

data - excess immersion.

Why is systematizing heightened and not suffer like the rest ?

Is there any positive characteristic in the schizophrenic ?

But Asperger's sees a tremendous affinity towards systematizing (not global but molecular systematizing ie tendency to infinity not tendency towards completion - liking overcomplication).

The scientific/wise mind is towards simplification though ... ... is Asperger's like affinity for complication a disorder also ?

SB_UK
02-23-16, 07:47 AM
So -

--- level 1 --- individual / group acquisition of wisdom

We know that the mind can complete.

--- level 2 --- individual / group acquisition of quality

We know that the individual can attain personally satisfying quality on the

sensory - eg the affinity for transmission/reception in music of hgh quality
systematizing - eg the affinity for making/using things/words of hgh quality
empathizing - eg the affinity for transmission/reception of ideas which make life better
balance - eg the affinity forattaining/obseving elegance

Quality represents novel sensitivity machinery at neocortical centres giving rise to ^^^ behaviours.

Everything neural requires training/learning - the nerve is an entirely environmental construct.

SB_UK
02-23-16, 07:56 AM
Autism increased in children of bi-lateral academic.
Academics defined by making simple things needlessly complicated.

Autism ?
Inherited predisposition towards making things unnecessaily complicated ?

Solution
Developing a model of understanding of human context (reality) which is correct as a precursor in defining a world which is rational/moral as a basis to creating the ideal environment in which the 4 novel axes of human quality (sensory, systematizig, balance and empathizing) are allowed to develop. Neural network assembly wholly defined by environmental stimulus.

That's ^^^ better.

SB_UK
02-23-16, 08:05 AM
Academics defined by making simple things needlessly complicated.


Science (mind) is the tendecy towards the simplest explanatory model.

Human beings don't do this - don't attempt to synthesize knowledge but atomise it.

Atomising knowledge must result in disintegration of mind.

Explaining why - even though we're at a point in evolution where we're producing MORE scientific publications, generatingmore data than ever before

- we're in the worst possible shape imaginable.

Why ?

In simple language - everybody's confused.

The mind is meant to be a 'thing' which knows and then applies moral behaviour - instead we've all acquired minds which're a mess of noise -
yes noise comprising datapoints which can be passed off as 'expertise' -

- but as long as the datapoints are not consistent with morality - they represent noise to an absent signal.

-*-

- the principle human disease - making things harder than they are - sometimes for personal gain - often through lack of simpler model of understanding.

-*-

What do human beings need to understand ?
'right intention' ie you do something for the personal fulfilment one feels from helping others (doing something worthwhile - the other need not be a person) -
- the rest just falls into place.

And if somebody comes along with a simpler model of functioning which is better eg the new belt drives + internal hub gears which prevents the pain of looking after your derailleur system - then you change - because that's in the best interests of people.

How much do I hate derailleurs ?
Let me count the ways.

SB_UK
02-23-16, 10:19 AM
IMAGE 1
(http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111102/images/Diag850.jpg)
IMAGE 2 (http://www.the-crises.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/wealth-inequality-usa-09.jpg)

Importance of oxytocin in attachment.

Importance of oxytocin in helping the autist.

Loss of emotional attachment to all things in materialism.

Materialism is just selfishness - the individual attaches only to themself.

Academics attached to systematizing not empathizing.
^^^ general idea is used by Baron Cohen to descibe autism.

Academic failure to attach (pair bond between man-woman), for maternal-child attachment to fail ?

Maybe people born with more hypersensitive sensory affective temperaments (including some people with autism), emotionally want and need attachment and attunement like everyone else, but overwhelming and painful hypersensitive sensory responses interferes?


Sensitivity arises and receives no attachment - sensitivity develops into hypersensitivity to get what it needs ?

So ?

Adopting a moral basis to worldview and living one's life accordingly 'd be the basis to overcoming diseases relating to the emergence of something good (extreme sensitivity) but something good that goes bad (hypersensitivity) in the absence of an appropriate training (in this case an attachment relationship) environment.


So - underlying autism - it's painful hypersensitivity to heightened sensitivity which receives insufficient stimulation.
This is very similar in principle to the idea of ADHD.

Same basic story underlying autism and ADHD
And once again we arrive at this difficult idea of not too little and not too much stimulation [disorder] - on a heightened level of sensitivity [evolutionary advantage].

So - pair-bond must not be a marriage of convenience, desire to have a child must be biological need and not just to get priority positioning on the list for a council house.

This general idea isn't generally found considered in science - disorder in wife-husband and in parent-child psychology through failed attachment - but attachment's existence is very much an accepted part of science.

What's missing is a general understanding that failed attachment might characterize one's own marraige, one's own relationship with child ? And of the consequence for this failed attachement ?

-*-

Maybe people born with more hypersensitive sensory affective temperaments (including some people with autism), emotionally want and need attachment and attunement like everyone else, but overwhelming and painful hypersensitive sensory responses interferes?
So - disorder of hypersensitivity [autism] when sensitivity is placed in an environment of low stimulus [attachment failure] ?

Why does attachment fail ?
Married to your job ? No time for anybody else <- classic scientist behaviour.

But you've been repeating that all jobs 'carry the error' ie all people are creating and not solving problems ?
Exactly - we need to marry the reward system of making things better - not self-aggrandizement at the (collective animal, vegetable and mineral)'s expense.

... ... which is just a fancy way of suggesting that all of our problems have arisen through failure to embrace 'love' as our motivation where 'love' is defined as a reward system (the feeling of satisfaction) when we do something positive for the collective (animal, vegetable and mineral) lot.

It's great to be fully immersed in what you're doing as long as your motivation is rationally/morally aligned also ie what you're doing based on all available information will result in collective betterment.
How can you tell if you're deluding yourself ?
Reaction to challenge ?
If working towards collective betterment you'll find yourself open to change as long as your mind can see that the change being suggested is for the better - and your own expertise (potentially discarded) won't be upsetting - an opportunity to learn something new.

SB_UK
02-23-16, 10:50 AM
Loss of emotional attachment to all things in materialism.


This explains consumerism's throwaway culture of things ie just throw away your iphone or bike when a new one comes along.

Not even a positive, loving attitude to the inanimate in consumerism - which is funny - because - an alternative description of materialism is material world attachment.

The problem being that there's addictive and loving attachment - where the difference relies on the attitude one has with the other - is the other there to serve your needs or are the needs of the other to be served also ?

Easy to understand in the relaitonship with people or animals but

plants - some understanding that there's an ecosystem ie failure to care for plants and service their needs will impact on your life also.
minerals making up the bike - a care relationship in which it's serviced properly by the individual themself - and once again failure to recycle minerals or to service bike - will end up with the species having no further access to the mineral and to personal damage through the bike failing.

-*-

So ?

We've 2 ways of operation:

Selfish (towards pursuit of personal power at the expense of one and all)
vs
Social (towards pursuit of greater personal quality for one and all)

- and we're currently electing for the wrong choice.

Lunacie
02-23-16, 11:53 AM
So much to read and try to understand ... overwhelming to me.

I'm not sure, but it almost sounds like you're blaming the parents for making their child autistic.

The "refrigerator mother" model has been proven incorrect.

Autism increased in children of bi-lateral academic.
Academics defined by making simple things needlessly complicated.

Autism ?
Inherited predisposition towards making things unnecessaily complicated ?

Solution
Developing a model of understanding of human context (reality) which is correct as a precursor in defining a world which is rational/moral as a basis to creating the ideal environment in which the 4 novel axes of human quality (sensory, systematizig, balance and empathizing) are allowed to develop. Neural network assembly wholly defined by environmental stimulus.

That's ^^^ better.

Where did you get this idea? That autistic people are predisposed to make things unnecessarily complicated?

I disagree. It's more a matter of the brain being able to prioritize between the myriad of things that are bombarding our senses at the same time, seemingly at the same intensity.

Autistics tend to find rules and order very important, thus making things less complicated and chaotic for themselves.

SB_UK
02-23-16, 01:48 PM
But Asperger's sees a tremendous affinity towards systematizing (not global but molecular systematizing ie tendency to infinity not tendency towards completion - liking overcomplication).

The scientific/wise mind is towards simplification though ... ... is Asperger's like affinity for complication a disorder also ?


She has also suggested that individuals with autism have ‘weak central coherence’, and are better than typical individuals at processing details but worse at integrating information from many different sources.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/histmed/audio/neuroscience/frith

Autism is a little like the disease of University academia.

Forever over-complicating.

-*-

The human mind is just a single explanatory structure - of everything.

When it understands context it's complete.

-*-

The big issue is that systemizing and empathizing have to balance -

the system has to be in peoples' best interests - making the mind a theory of rational morality.

The system needs to be anchored on human wellbeing.

SB_UK
02-23-16, 02:14 PM
https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-21/edition-2/theories-autistic-mind
The typical nine-year-old can figure out what might hurt another’s feelings and what might therefore be better left unspoken – faux pas. Children with Asperger’s syndrome are delayed by around three years in this skill, despite their normal IQ (Baron-Cohen, O’Riordan et al., 1999). SOCIAL SIGNAL sensory (incoming signals) INPUT
drowning in 'too much information' - the autistic child is trying to turn down the 'volume' knob - hypersensitive to sensory information

Shaw and Rapaport used MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) to measure the brains of 447 children of different ages. They frequently noticed that the volume of the brain in the prefrontal cortex was thinner in ADHD children than other children of the same age. The cortex developed correctly over time, but the ADHD brain’s development lagged behind about 3 years before it reached maturity. SOCIAL SIGNAL motor (outgoing signals) OUTPUT
drowning in 'too much information' - the ADDer's brain is moving too fast - hypersensitive to sensory information

Lunacie
02-23-16, 02:33 PM
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/histmed/audio/neuroscience/frith

Autism is a little like the disease of University academia.

Forever over-complicating.

-*-

The human mind is just a single explanatory structure - of everything.

When it understands context it's complete.

-*-

The big issue is that systemizing and empathizing have to balance -

the system has to be in peoples' best interests - making the mind a theory of rational morality.

The system needs to be anchored on human wellbeing.

I think you may be right about University Academia making things over-complicated.

But I still don't see anything that says this is a trait of autism.

They may not be seeing what seems to other to be the obvious and simplest solution.

Is there a psychological condition which promotes literal and overly complicated thinking?

Yes, I think so... Its called intelligence.
from: http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/4073/is-there-a-psychological-condition-which-promotes-literal-and-overly-complicated

SB_UK
02-23-16, 03:40 PM
https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-21/edition-2/theories-autistic-mind
SOCIAL SIGNAL sensory (incoming signals) INPUT
drowning in 'too much information' - the autistic child is trying to turn down the 'volume' knob - hypersensitive to sensory information

SOCIAL SIGNAL motor (outgoing signals) OUTPUT
drowning in 'too much information' - the ADDer's brain is moving too fast - hypersensitive to sensory information

Sensory_processing_disorder#Autistic_spectrum_diso rders_and_difficulties_of_sensory_processing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_processing_disorder#Autistic_spectrum_diso rders_and_difficulties_of_sensory_processing
sensori

Sensory_processing_disorder#SPD_and_ADHD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_processing_disorder#SPD_and_ADHD
motor

Sensory_processing_disorder#Schizophrenia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_processing_disorder#Other_comorbidities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory-motor_coupling#Speech
Sensorimotor integration is involved in the
perception
production
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech)of speech.AUTISM - delayed language comprehension ie when others talk- mindblindness ie blind to others' minds
ADDER - delayed language production - motor

A new sensorimotor functionality like language requiring sensitivity.

Autism can't spot deception
ADDers can't force reward eg money can't buy our attention

Social species formation requires a mechanism.

why did we need standard language ?
to work out context

why evolve language ?
to generate a trusting social species which collaborates on individual/group quality acquisition

- essential precursor to 'have fun'

mildadhd
02-26-16, 12:44 AM
1) Tertiary Affects and Neocortical ‘Awareness’ Functions
i) Cognitive Executive Functions: Thoughts & Planning (frontal cortex)
ii) Emotional Ruminations & Regulations (medial frontal regions)
iii) ‘Free Will’ (higher working memory functions — Intention-to-Act)

2) Secondary-Process Affective Memories (Learning via Basal Ganglia)
i) Classical Conditioning (e.g. FEAR via basolateral & central amygdala)
ii) Instrumental & Operant Conditioning (SEEKING via nucleus accumbens)
iii) Behavioural & Emotional Habits (largely unconscious — dorsal striatum)

3) Primary-Process, Basic-Primordial Affective States (Sub-Neocortical)
i) Sensory Affects (exteroceptive-sensory triggered pleasurable and unpleasurable/disgusting feelings)
ii) Homeostatic Affects (brain-body interoceptors: hunger, thirst, etc.)
iii) Emotional Affects (emotion action systems — Intentions-in-Actions)

The Philosophical Implications of Affective Neuroscience
(http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/109303/jcs-articlefinal.pdf)


Does a temperament include all three primary-process affects?

-sensory affects
-homeostatic affects
-emotional affects

mildadhd
02-26-16, 09:33 AM
Does a temperament include all three primary-process affects?

-sensory affects
-homeostatic affects
-emotional affects

I started a new thread discussion to explore the question what is a temperament in general.

(see thread new thread link below)

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1790592#post1790592

mildadhd
03-05-16, 05:37 PM
Maybe, but because we are not dogs, and because we cannot know, in the experiential sense, the experience of a dog, there is no way to answer this question.

To say “yes” seems quite a presumptuous leap, and more one of faith than reason.



Same as above with the dog.



It would seem so, based on external observations, but in truth, we do not know. Human beings tend not to have memories of their emotional experience (if any) from the age of 2 years and under, and we have no way to know (with certainty) the internal experience, emotional or otherwise, of any other human being.

So again, to say “yes” seems quite a leap, and more one of faith than one based on rational argument.



First, we do not know what other mammals have or not as it regards emotional systems, nor can we know, nor shall we know, with any certainty, much less at all.

Also, the idea that there exists 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses is a hypothesis. Which is not to say it is worth more or less, but to keep in mind that it is suitable to explore evidence which may support, or not, but it is not suitable to treat it as a truth upon which we build other arguments or explorations.

While I think there is merit to the idea, I don’t think the emotional experience of a neonate maps so neatly to 7 discrete states, neurologically or otherwise.

Consider, the idea that there exists 7 primary unconditioned raw emotional responses is to liken the neonate’s state to a digital system of 3 binary bits (roughly) or a single bit system with 7 potential values (exactly).

The neurological function of a neonate, if we consider it to be analog (electrically) has no discrete states. If we consider it to be digital, such that neurons and suchlike are akin to transistors and gates, the value at any given point in time is orders of magnitude more complex than any proposed idea of 7 discrete states.

And if we consider the neurological function of a neonate as a fuzzy logic architecture (quite fascinating in regards to the physical/electrical structure of the cerebrum!), we arrive somewhere else, but it still doesn’t map to 7 discrete states.

It may be possible that there are discrete states, but some will remain unknown and unexplored for the simple fact we do not have a word to label or describe them. Given the worldwide cultural systems dedicated to emotional “management,” this wouldn’t surprise me.

---

In my experience, emotional is physical, at least in part, if not entirely.

In any case, what I can know is limited by my perceptions and awareness, and inasmuch as this is true, I have no way to test them as independent variables.

And for that matter, the ideas of emotional and physical are deeply rooted in language and culture. They may not be valid as it concerns the human experience. At least I am open to considering that.


Cheers,
Ian

Ian.

Looking at the weight of evidence, it would be even more of a "presumptuous leap" to say dogs and cats don't have physical emotions.

doribc
03-10-16, 06:25 PM
i'm glad see see Dr. Panksepp mentioned. Also important are Dr. Daniel Segal (sp?), Petty Wipfel, Alan Shore, Bonnie Badenoch, Philip Bromberg

mildadhd
03-12-16, 07:32 PM
i'm glad see see Dr. Panksepp mentioned. Also important are Dr. Daniel Segal (sp?), Petty Wipfel, Alan Shore, Bonnie Badenoch, Philip Bromberg

Thank You. Lets check out some about about each person, starting with Dr. Dan Siegel.

Due to levels and circular complexity, one person could not express everything interesting. I will focus on information that I find really interesting, at this time, but not only limited to. Please feel free to include whatever information interests, at the present time.

(4:38)..in addition to right and left. There is. Now please excuse these incredibly simplistic statements but there is a upstairs brain, and a downstairs brain..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGUEDtGSwW4

mildadhd
03-12-16, 08:13 PM
Thank You. I need to keep things simple. I may have indirectly learned about Petty Wipfler's work. But this is first time I remember being cognitively conscious of Petty Wipfler. I will post more about Petty Wipfler's and other people's work as I learn more. Feelings/thoughts appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMf8TYlVlzg