View Full Version : Persistent adhd and critical parents


ginniebean
02-19-16, 08:54 PM
For many children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, symptoms appear to decrease as they age, but for some they do not and one reason may be persistent parental criticism, according to research published by the American Psychological Association.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160208134428.htm


I don't know if this is in the right section or not, or even really what to think of it. I am curious about others thoughts tho.

I'm a study of one, I'm willing to believe that excessive criticism has long term effects and possibily debilitating ones.

anyone?

namazu
02-19-16, 09:41 PM
I haven't read the actual research, so this is just my first thought off the top of my head:

It seems to me that the causation could plausibly go either way (which is kind of what the researcher quoted at the end of the ScienceDaily article suggested):

- It could be that overly-critical parenting (or a lack of supportive parenting?) perpetuates or worsens or prolongs ADHD symptoms (or hinders/fails to promote development of self-regulatory skills, or something), or contributes to the development of coexisting conditions like depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, etc., which could exacerbate overall poor functioning.

- It could be that kids with more severe/numerous/persistent ADHD symptoms are more likely to be the targets of criticism because their symptoms cause friction at home and in other situations. Kids whose behavior doesn't meet expectations are probably more likely to be yelled at or criticized than "well-behaved" kids.

The researchers would have had to design and carry out the study carefully, in a way that was able to distinguish between these possibilities. (And, of course, I could also imagine there being some interactions there -- which would make it more difficult to know what's responsible for what.)

I'd want to know things like: How old were the kids at the start of the study? How well were symptoms and severity measured? How well was "critical" parenting defined and measured? Besides just the amount of criticism, what other parenting factors may have played a role? Were those factors measured, and how? Was parental ADHD symptomatology considered, and how? Etc.

If/when I have a chance to read the actual study, I'll try to report back.

Thanks for sharing the article.

Fortune
02-19-16, 09:50 PM
Makes sense to me.

I dealt with excessive criticism. Both parents did it although my mother insists now that she didn't do it.

aeon
02-19-16, 10:19 PM
I have no idea if it explains things for me or not, but my childhood experience of persistent parental criticism absolutely had long-lasting effects, and negative ones at that.


Cheers,
Ian

BellaVita
02-19-16, 10:30 PM
This is so interesting!

During the last several months with my Dad, he would say to me "is it really possible your ADHD is getting worse"? (In an attacking way) Btw - he criticized me often, well I don't know if it's considered criticism since it was mainly name-calling, saying I'm lazy/selfish, and other verbal abuse.

At one point he said he wanted me to "prove it!" that it can - so I said I can go find a study. He wasn't all that interested though, and began saying he doesn't want to see a study because I'm just a liar and I'm a lazy b****.

So, I think many things can make ADHD worse.

Fortune
02-19-16, 10:47 PM
I would say in general excessive criticism...okay, let's call it what it is - verbal abuse - makes things worse. It makes sense that it would make ADHD worse because it makes everything worse.

ginniebean
02-19-16, 11:36 PM
I have no idea if it explains things for me or not, but my childhood experience of persistent parental criticism absolutely had long-lasting effects, and negative ones at that.


Cheers,
Ian\


I'm in the same spot. I mean it "sounds' reasonable, and I have little doubt that excessive criticism causes long term damage. What I don't know and am skeptical aboutis whether people outgrow adhd with more supportive parenting.

It's a curiosity and it's why I posted this for feedback.

ginniebean
02-19-16, 11:37 PM
I would say in general excessive criticism...okay, let's call it what it is - verbal abuse - makes things worse. It makes sense that it would make ADHD worse because it makes everything worse.


Oh that slid past me, I dislike euphamisms for abuse that protect the perpetrator, parents, teachers and others in authority.

dvdnvwls
02-20-16, 01:44 AM
I definitely didn't have particularly critical parents. ADHD certainly still affects me. Whether these ADHD symptoms would be even worse if my parents had been persistently critical - who knows?

It seems to me that the ultimate conclusion and/or usefulness of a study on this theme is "Mean people suck". We kind of knew that already. :(

daveddd
02-20-16, 01:47 AM
for me , my parents weren't critical that i recall, but i believe my constant social blunders have left a loop in my mind that makes things worse

daveddd
02-20-16, 01:49 AM
joel nigg has replicated several studies of epigenetic and certain genes interacting with parental issues that make things worse and have a similar phenotype

he is definitely who i would recommend for this topic

namazu
02-20-16, 01:51 AM
joel nigg has replicated several studies of epigenetic and certain genes interacting with parental issues that make things worse and have a similar phenotype

he is definitely who i would recommend for this topic
He's the senior author on this study.

Here's the abstract (http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/abn0000097).

daveddd
02-20-16, 02:01 AM
He's the senior author on this study.

Here's the abstract (http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/abn0000097).

didnt even look, since ginnie posted it,

awesome, then it is definitely to be taken seriously, he is very thorough about limitations and correlations causation

id say he is far and away the leader in this aspect of ADHD research

ginniebean
02-20-16, 02:05 AM
didnt even look, since ginnie posted it,

awesome, then it is definitely to be taken seriously, he is very thorough about limitations and correlations causation

id say he is far and away the leader in this aspect of ADHD research

because I posted it you didn't look?

ok....

BellaVita
02-20-16, 02:14 AM
Sometimes I feel like my parents caused me legit brain damage.

daveddd
02-20-16, 02:17 AM
because I posted it you didn't look?

ok....

because i assumed it was legit

ginniebean
02-20-16, 02:17 AM
oh, apologies dave. I just found it curious.

namazu
02-20-16, 02:19 AM
awesome, then it is definitely to be taken seriously, he is very thorough about limitations and correlations causation

Yeah. They make it clear that they cannot conclude from this research that parental criticism causes ADHD symptoms to persist, just that parental criticism and persistence of ADHD symptoms -- particularly hyperactive-impulsive symptoms -- more often co-occur.
Because these data do not indicate the direction of effects, different implications can be considered. One possibility is that intervention to reduce high parental criticism could assist children to return to a normatively improving course of development. Alternatively, improving the severe symptoms of this group of children could enable a “virtuous cycle” to emerge in the home in which parental criticism improves along with child symptoms.

It was notable that parental emotional overinvolvement was not uniquely associated with any ADHD or ODD symptom trajectories. [...]

This study addressed a key “first question,” helping to confirm that ADHD trajectories can be empirically identified, that they are associated significantly with parental high EE [expressed emotion] criticism, and that this association is distinct from ODD associations with parental EE.

[...]

The next step now is to evaluate causal direction of these effects, which are likely to be to some extent bidirectional. Fine tuning of causal understanding will require experimental designs (intervention studies), the use of younger (toddler or preschool-aged) samples, and we also plan to undertake sibling analysis and cross-lagged designs in future studies. It may be that high parental criticism emerges as a response to difficult temperament in children at-risk for psychopathology, and then, in a recursive chain, maintains symptoms (Hale et al., 2011).

daveddd
02-20-16, 02:27 AM
Yeah. They make it clear that they cannot conclude from this research that parental criticism causes ADHD symptoms to persist, just that parental criticism and persistence of ADHD symptoms -- particularly hyperactive-impulsive symptoms -- more often co-occur.

i didn't mean to say he was perfect and can provide proof (thats for math and booze right)

just to say he is thorough, likely didn't make silly causation vs correlation

I've seen some really obvious , thats correlation, type stuff

nigg is thorough and very highly cited (quite a bit by barkley)

just wanting to say , he is worth listening too

daveddd
02-20-16, 02:28 AM
oh, apologies dave. I just found it curious.

reading it as an observer , i can see that

i still consider you a good friend, even though its been awhile, nothing has changed in that aspect for me

namazu
02-20-16, 02:32 AM
i didn't mean to say he was perfect and can provide proof (thats for math and booze right)

just to say he is thorough, likely didn't make silly causation vs correlation

I know. In my opinion, it's a very positive thing for researchers to explain clearly what their research can and can't say, and they've done a good job of that in the paper.

The excerpts there are from the conclusions of the actual paper.

I just wanted to note that Nigg and colleagues are *not* claiming (at least, at this point) that parental criticism causes persistence of ADHD symptoms, just that the two things appear to be linked in some way(s) that require(s) further clarification.



FWIW, I'm another ADHDer with persistent symptoms whose parents (fortunately) were not overly critical of me. (That said, I don't doubt that verbal abuse or other forms of heavy criticism could do lasting damage to a person's psyche.)

daveddd
02-20-16, 02:41 AM
I know. In my opinion, it's a very positive thing for researchers to explain clearly what their research can and can't say, and they've done a good job of that in the paper.

The excerpts there are from the conclusions of the actual paper.

I just wanted to note that Nigg and colleagues are *not* claiming (at least, at this point) that parental criticism causes persistence of ADHD symptoms, just that the two things appear to be linked in some way(s) that require(s) further clarification.



FWIW, I'm another ADHDer with persistent symptoms whose parents (fortunately) were not overly critical of me, at least if I'm understanding what they mean by overly critical.

yea me too

he seems to attempt to link environmental circumstances like that to specific genetic variants with similar phenotypes

for example


J Clin Child Adolesc Psychol. 2015 Jan 20:1-13. [Epub ahead of print]
Does 5HTTLPR Genotype Moderate the Association of Family Environment With Child Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Symptomatology?
Elmore AL1, Nigg JT, Friderici KH, Jernigan K, Nikolas MA.
Author information
Abstract
Problematic family dynamics are common among youth with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Multiple mechanisms, including diathesis-stress (vulnerability) and differential susceptibility Gene Environment interaction effects (G E), have been proposed to account for this association. G E effects for ADHD were examined via interactions between a genetic marker hypothesized to influence sensitivity to the environment (the promoter polymorphism of the serotonin transporter gene -5HTTLPR) and family conflict and cohesion in predicting ADHD symptoms. There were 498 youth ages 6-17 years (251 ADHD, 213 non-ADHD) and their parents who completed a multistage, multi-informant assessment (including parent and youth reports on the Family Environment Scale), and saliva sample collection for genotyping. Linear regression analyses examined interactions between 5HTTLPR genotype and the Family Environment Scale scales of conflict and cohesion reported by parent and child. Criteria laid out by Roisman et al. ( 2012 ) were applied to evaluate diathesis stress versus differential susceptibility G E mechanisms. Results demonstrated interactions between 5HTTLPR genotype and both conflict and cohesion in predicting inattention but not hyperactivity-impulsivity. Both interactions were highly consistent with differential susceptibility models of G E effects. 5HTTLPR genotype appeared to moderate the relationship between family conflict/cohesion and inattentive symptoms. Interactions highlight the role of 5HTTLPR genotype as a potential marker of environmental sensitivity and provide support for differential susceptibility models of G E effects for ADHD.
PMID: 25602736 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] PMCID: PMC4508252 [Available on


while constantly stressing the extreme heterogeneity of the syndrome

also that its a syndrome with symptoms that arise from a large variety of circumstances

so the fact this wouldn't apply to all of us would make perfect sense in his terms

daveddd
02-20-16, 02:43 AM
J Abnorm Child Psychol. 2011 Jan;39(1):1-10. doi: 10.1007/s10802-010-9439-5.
The dopamine receptor D4 gene (DRD4) moderates family environmental effects on ADHD.
Martel MM1, Nikolas M, Jernigan K, Friderici K, Waldman I, Nigg JT.
Author information
Abstract
Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is a prime candidate for exploration of gene-by-environment interaction (i.e., G x E), particularly in relation to dopamine system genes, due to strong evidence that dopamine systems are dysregulated in the disorder. Using a G x E design, we examined whether the DRD4 promoter 120-bp tandem repeat polymorphism, previously associated with ADHD, moderated the effects of inconsistent parenting and marital conflict on ADHD or Oppositional-Defiant Disorder (ODD). Participants were 548 children with ADHD and non-ADHD comparison children and their parents. Homozygosity for the DRD4 promoter 120-bp tandem repeat insertion allele increased vulnerability for ADHD and ODD only in the presence of inconsistent parenting and appeared to increase susceptibility to the influence of increased child self-blame for marital conflict on ADHD inattention. DRD4 genotypes may interact with these proximal family environmental risk factors by increasing the individual's responsivity to environmental contingencies.
PMID: 20644990 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] PMCID: PMC4306231 Free PMC Article


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20644990

Fortune
02-20-16, 04:38 AM
Oh that slid past me, I dislike euphamisms for abuse that protect the perpetrator, parents, teachers and others in authority.

To be fair I might be projecting my own experiences, but I do think that excessive criticism - based on my experience - is pretty awful.

sarahsweets
02-20-16, 05:14 AM
I think critical abusive parents definitely made my adhd harder to bear but anytime anyone tried to make getting older and a lessenning of adhd symptoms a thing I get all ruffled because I feel like the idea that growing out of adhd is sort of this NT myth.

daveddd
02-20-16, 06:24 AM
i think ADHD only persists into adulthood in 60% of people maybe , bark;ey says

sarahsweets
02-20-16, 06:34 AM
i think ADHD only persists into adulthood in 60% of people maybe , bark;ey says
Oh wow, I didnt know that. Is it based on severity do you think?

daveddd
02-20-16, 10:52 AM
I'm not sure

I believe I've read the higher the genetic load the higher chance on persisting

and possibly severity

here is an emotional dysregulation chart from barkley for ADHD thats continues into adult, ADHD that doesn't and control

big difference s

https://books.google.com/books?id=0J0gBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&dq=research+using+rating+scales+of+emotional+react ivity+lability+and+regulation+likewise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7xMjAy4bLAhXLez4KHevZBT0Q6AEIHzAA#v=on epage&q=research%20using%20rating%20scales%20of%20emotio nal%20reactivity%20lability%20and%20regulation%20l ikewise&f=false

ginniebean
02-20-16, 01:38 PM
Wow Namazu and Dave! I'm reading all this on my phone and sigh forgot my glasses. I really value your comments.


Sarah, according to Barkley, those who "outgrow" are thosr that become subthreshold. Interestingly enough, Barkley has mentioned that often family members of those with adhd are subtheshold as well.

Luvmybully
02-20-16, 01:40 PM
For many children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, symptoms appear to decrease as they age, but for some they do not and one reason may be persistent parental criticism, according to research published by the American Psychological Association.


I did NOT read the study, but the first thing that came to mind was, yes, some symptoms may decrease, but does that mean the adhd is decreasing? Or just changing as the person gets older?

A child may be able to be quieter and not as fidgety, for example, as they get older, but does that automatically mean their attention is more focused?

ginniebean
02-20-16, 01:45 PM
Well, I do hope they do more research on this if only to give more information to parents and teachers. I'd really like to see a more gentle and supportive role being promoted rather than the pusb push, demand, bad kids model that is just too prevalent.

ginniebean
02-20-16, 01:50 PM
For many children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, symptoms appear to decrease as they age, but for some they do not and one reason may be persistent parental criticism, according to research published by the American Psychological Association.


I did NOT read the study, but the first thing that came to mind was, yes, some symptoms may decrease, but does that mean the adhd is decreasing? Or just changing as the person gets older?

A child may be able to be quieter and not as fidgety, for example, as they get older, but does that automatically mean their attention is more focused?


People, adhd or not develop compensatory skills for stressors in life. My guess is that those close to threshold can develop enough compensation skills to go subthreshold for the disorder. I also guess that stressful events can cause decompensation plunging an individual back into meeting clinical criteria.

It's likely a long way off before these people get recogniton tho.

daveddd
02-20-16, 01:52 PM
For many children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, symptoms appear to decrease as they age, but for some they do not and one reason may be persistent parental criticism, according to research published by the American Psychological Association.


I did NOT read the study, but the first thing that came to mind was, yes, some symptoms may decrease, but does that mean the adhd is decreasing? Or just changing as the person gets older?

A child may be able to be quieter and not as fidgety, for example, as they get older, but does that automatically mean their attention is more focused?

i have to believe this particular researcher would account for that as it is well known

nigg focuses strongly on emotional symptoms in his work


edit, didn't mean to sound cocky here, reading it back i do

just that i now his work well and he is on the ball about the changes from childhood to adult in ADHD

ginniebean
02-20-16, 01:53 PM
I should have also added luv that it appears the adhd condition doesn't change, but i could be wrong.

daveddd
02-20-16, 01:58 PM
People, adhd or not develop compensatory skills for stressors in life. My guess is that those close to threshold can develop enough compensation skills to go subthreshold for the disorder. I also guess that stressful events can cause decompensation plunging an individual back into meeting clinical criteria.

It's likely a long way off before these people get recogniton tho.

yea , technically certain doctors may not think i have ADHD

because i learned to play to my strengths at work (likely barkley says ADHD is less an attention deficit and more of selective attention)


and my relationship is good

so no 2 of 3

luckily research is heading in a more proper direction for Adult ADHD, and we know there is much more to it than external social indicators

Luvmybully
02-20-16, 02:09 PM
i have to believe this particular researcher would account for that as it is well known

nigg focuses strongly on emotional symptoms in his work


edit, didn't mean to sound cocky here, reading it back i do

just that i now his work well and he is on the ball about the changes from childhood to adult in ADHD

I didn't think you were cocky. ;)

I did not read the study, that was just the first thought that popped into my head.

My husband had wonderful parents. I am in an interesting situation here. Since I have been so close to him since childhood, I have seen how his adhd has altered over the years (and how it hasn't).

I also like to think that we, as parents, were not critical of our kids when they were growing up, but they still have adhd as adults. (our oldest daughter got diagnosed in grad school! She is soooo completely different from the glaringly obvious adhd suffering youngest.)

I need to read the article.

Fuzzy12
02-20-16, 03:45 PM
My parents weren't critical at all. I doubt that super critical (or abusive) parents can make someone's adhd worse but they can probably be the reason why that person doesn't pick up better coping skills or compensation mechanisms. And coming from a difficult childhood could mean that you develop all kinds of other problems which again might add to your adhd symptoms or mask any skills that you might have otherwise employed to.compensate.

It's difficult to compare though because I guess it's not a linear relationship. Not everyone who is severely impaired grew up in a difficult environment especially considering g that adhd symptoms itself lie on a spectrum of varying severity.

daveddd
02-20-16, 04:20 PM
another important thing may be vulnerability level

they have delineated some specific ADHD phenotypes

take fragile x, premutation , no intellectual disability or physical abnormalities but a 90% ADHD rate very a very specific phenotype that looks like this

high hyperactivity , hypersensitivity, severe inattention, social anxiety, eye gaze avoidance due to emotional hyperactivity as opposed to lack of social skills, perseveration , various mood disorders, finger biting as a soothing behavior

this has shown to be vary valid

if you have a vulnerability like this environment may have little impact


then if you have one of the variants like in niggs studies, if might take that parental criticism , or divorce or trauma to really activate the full blown disorder, and likely will have a different phenotype (ODD, possible, more anger based)

acdc01
02-21-16, 04:00 AM
another important thing may be vulnerability level

they have delineated some specific ADHD phenotypes

take fragile x, premutation , no intellectual disability or physical abnormalities but a 90% ADHD rate very a very specific phenotype that looks like this

high hyperactivity , hypersensitivity, severe inattention, social anxiety, eye gaze avoidance due to emotional hyperactivity as opposed to lack of social skills, perseveration , various mood disorders, finger biting as a soothing behavior

this has shown to be vary valid

if you have a vulnerability like this environment may have little impact


then if you have one of the variants like in niggs studies, if might take that parental criticism , or divorce or trauma to really activate the full blown disorder, and likely will have a different phenotype (ODD, possible, more anger based)

Interesting. I always wondered if ADHD is really one thing or if it's actually multiple things categorized into one label. I'm guessing those that lose their ADHD didn't really suffer from the same thing as us even though it was all put under the "ADHD" label.

I don't feel like the study says much of anything even if it brings up interesting questions. I get the feeling even the authors seemed to acknowledge that.

daveddd
02-21-16, 06:50 AM
Interesting. I always wondered if ADHD is really one thing or if it's actually multiple things categorized into one label. I'm guessing those that lose their ADHD didn't really suffer from the same thing as us even though it was all put under the "ADHD" label.

I don't feel like the study says much of anything even if it brings up interesting questions. I get the feeling even the authors seemed to acknowledge that.

its one syndrome (group of symptoms) with a wide variety of causes

SB_UK
02-28-16, 08:15 AM
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160208134428.htm


I don't know if this is in the right section or not, or even really what to think of it. I am curious about others thoughts tho.

I'm a study of one, I'm willing to believe that excessive criticism has long term effects and possibily debilitating ones.

anyone?


Being made to feel bad by teacher.
Being made to feel bad by your workplace slavemaster.
Being made to feel bad by your parents.
Being made to feel bad by your friends.

As one grows one can eliminate all of the above - but as we live in a world in which young people cannot afford to leave their home if they're not successful in education/work - it may prove impossible for the grown child to avoid constant distress from parental interaction -> distress -> disorder component of ADHD.

There's nothing intriniscially wrong with the ADDer - sole problem is society which expects individuals to be this good at this time - where the ADDer has a different learning trajectory, different interests.

These (if moral) won't pay.
Can't pay - a life of suffering stretches out in front of you.

An unpleasant life of suffering which is wholly caused by a society where only the most ardently greedy can make it -

- adders are not intrinsically greedy - and are growing up in a society where extent to which addiction to greed may be developed - as marker of success.

Easy to determine experimentally - psych measures of psychopathic behaviour can easily be shown (had a look at top 10 and bottom 10 professions graded by psychopathic index) to have a strong positive correlation.

ie immorality/greed/addiction overwhelmingly positiviely correlated with measures of success (ie money, power, fame attained)

- hardly surprising though since love of money, power and fame represent greed - and the greater the hunger in greed - the greater the motivation to comply.

The guy who's more addicted to some drug will most likely go that extra mile in feeding their addiction -

- whereas the guy who's not so fussed - won't edge their behaviours into dangerously antisocial in order to get their fix.