View Full Version : Is Sluggish cognitive tempo a mild form of schizophrenia?


Trantuete
02-25-16, 04:42 PM
Is there a connection between SCT and schizophrenia or schizoid personality traits?

I came up with this idea because of this quote from here: Google "SCT doesn't exist like everyone thinks it does" + reddit.


SCT is a very mild form of schizophrenia

Dreamy thoughts, disorganised, no cognitive impairment unlike classic adhd, etc. It is also genetic, I know as i have the same symptoms as does my father. It is basically very mild schizophrenia / hebephrenia which is "under control". The struggles people have with it is only because they are not targetting the "dreaminess" toward the right end. You need to target it to solving some kind of problem, it works like a creative, visual, outside the box form of thought and can let you come up with great things.

The thing about SCT is that it is all in your thoughts. it is a thought disorder, not a cognitive or executive disorder, ie the way adhd isDoes anyone here have schizophrenia in his family? I do and seem to experience some negative symptoms (but not psychosis), e.g. the "blank-mindedness" and "poverty of thoughts" (as opposed to "racing thoughts" in typical ADHD). On the SCT Reddit, some already wrote about that symptom:

Google "No thoughts at all" + reddit
Google "absence of thought" + reddit

I think this is spot-on. Maybe there is a connection in at least some people with SCT?

Schizoid Personality Disorder Forum: Google "One Biological Basis for SZD?" + psychforum

See also on ADDforums: Relationship between SCT and Schizophrenia (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121526)

Would be very interested to hear your experiences.

Pixelatedmind
02-25-16, 04:54 PM
I don't have any schizophrenic family history or tendencies. I do have classic ADHD and comorbid anxiety.

I experience "blank-mindedness" and "poverty of thoughts" as you mentioned, that could undoubtedly be a result of burn-out from the whole hassle of ADHD.

Unmanagable
02-25-16, 05:02 PM
My sister has a schizoeffective diagnosis. She's been through hell and back with it, at times.

My experiences are like the flip side of the coin of hers, for the most part. She hears and sees all the scary stuff within, while I typically have visions of lights, animal faces, shadows, silhouettes, ripples, etc. and it's all unexplainable to most, yet not fearful to me by any stretch of the imagination, except for seeing the apparent fear and discomfort it appears to invoke in others who think I'm to be feared because of that.

daveddd
02-25-16, 06:24 PM
Is there a connection between SCT and schizophrenia or schizoid personality traits?

I came up with this idea because of this quote from here: SCT doesn't exist like everyone thinks it does (http://www.reddit.com/r/SCT/comments/3zg6nk/sct_doesnt_exist_like_everyone_thinks_it_does/cz6v8yp)

Does anyone here have schizophrenia in his family? I do and seem to experience some negative symptoms (but not psychosis), e.g. the "blank-mindedness" and "poverty of thoughts" (as opposed to "racing thoughts" in typical ADHD). On the SCT Reddit, some already wrote about that symptom:

No thoughts at al (http://www.reddit.com/r/SCT/comments/3ileo3/no_thoughts_at_all/)l

Absence of thoughts (http://www.reddit.com/r/SCT/comments/1asd2a/absence_of_thought/)

I think this is spot-on. Maybe there is a connection in at least some people with SCT?

Schizoid Personality Disorder Forum: SCT as one biological basis for SZD? (http://www.psychforums.com/schizoid-personality/topic22036.html)

See also on ADDforums: Relationship between SCT and Schizophrenia (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121526)

Would be very interested to hear your experiences.

i believe it

i think all the PDs are linked to axis 1 disorders and most disorders are linked to inbound differences

now we are just separating them further and further apart, without any real benefit

Fortune
02-25-16, 08:54 PM
Just as a point of reference, people with ADHD, autism, and other conditions can experience thought disorders as well. They're not restricted to the schizophrenia spectrum.

mctavish23
02-25-16, 11:43 PM
Short answer = No. Not even close. (Besides, SCT is a "construct," and not a given).

Good Luck.

mctavish23

(Robert)

daveddd
02-25-16, 11:53 PM
Just as a point of reference, people with ADHD, autism, and other conditions can experience thought disorders as well. They're not restricted to the schizophrenia spectrum.

if I'm not mistaken schizophrenia is a DSM disorder , in other words symptoms

symptoms that can be arrived at through a variety of mechanisms (if these were distinct clinical diseases they would have biomarkers by now)

so is saying someone with ADHD can experience thought disorders different from saying a subgroup of people with ADHD also meet the criteria for schizophrenia?



there are phenotypes that suggest a relationship , in that particular pathway(keeping in ming the heterogeneity of all mental illness)




Am J Med Genet C Semin Med Genet. 2015 Jun;169(2):172-81. doi: 10.1002/ajmg.c.31435. Epub 2015 May 18.
Developmental trajectories in 22q11.2 deletion.
Swillen A, McDonald-McGinn D.
Abstract
Chromosome 22q11.2 deletion syndrome (22q11.2DS), a neurogenetic condition, is the most common microdeletion syndrome affecting 1 in 2,000-4,000 live births and involving haploinsufficiency of ∼50 genes resulting in a multisystem disorder. Phenotypic expression is highly variable and ranges from severe life-threatening conditions to only a few associated features. Most common medical problems include: congenital heart disease, in particular conotruncal anomalies; palatal abnormalities, most frequently velopharyngeal incompetence (VPI); immunodeficiency; hypocalcemia due to hypoparathyroidism; genitourinary anomalies; severe feeding/gastrointestinal differences; and subtle dysmorphic facial features. The neurocognitive profile is also highly variable, both between individuals and during the course of development. From infancy onward, motor delays (often with hypotonia) and speech/language deficits are commonly observed. During the preschool and primary school ages, learning difficulties are very common. The majority of patients with 22q11.2DS have an intellectual level that falls in the borderline range (IQ 70-84), and about one-third have mild to moderate intellectual disability. More severe levels of intellectual disability are uncommon in children and adolescents but are more frequent in adults. Individuals with 22q11.2DS are at an increased risk for developing several psychiatric disorders including attention deficit with hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), autism spectrum disorder (ASD), anxiety and mood disorders, and psychotic disorders and schizophrenia. In this review, we will focus on the developmental phenotypic transitions regarding cognitive development in 22q11.2DS from early preschool to adulthood, and on the changing behavioral/psychiatric phenotype across age, on a background of frequently complex medical conditions.
© 2015 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

daveddd
02-26-16, 12:02 AM
schizotypy by meehl is interesting reading for this topic

Fortune
02-26-16, 12:18 AM
Yes, formal thought disorder is associated with SZ-spectrum disorders (and yes those disorders are in the DSM, and yes formal thought disorder is in the SZ criteria), but if you study thought disorders as their own thing you will find that they are not strictly experienced by people on the SZ spectrum.

daveddd
02-26-16, 12:31 AM
Yes, formal thought disorder is associated with SZ-spectrum disorders (and yes those disorders are in the DSM, and yes formal thought disorder is in the SZ criteria), but if you study thought disorders as their own thing you will find that they are not strictly experienced by people on the SZ spectrum.

yes

what i was saying is the "comorbity" and heterogeneity of these disorders suggest to me a large variety of reasons why these symptoms may occur

suggesting to me that maybe some peoples ADHD(one example) may be related to schizophrenia

this is just what my own convoluted logic along with recent advances in certain genetic phenotyping (which by no means covers any diagnostic category ) suggest to me

as opposed to ADHD is only this, and schizophrenia is only that

just an opinion

Fortune
02-26-16, 12:33 AM
That intended meaning was entirely opaque to me from your previous post.

How about this: Formal thought disorder is present in people who do not experience psychosis.

daveddd
02-26-16, 12:40 AM
That intended meaning was entirely opaque to me from your previous post.

How about this: Formal thought disorder is present in people who do not experience psychosis.

i understand

and formal thought disorder is also considered by some some to be part of the schizophrenia spectrum even without psychosis

dating all the way back to terms like latent or ambulatory schizophrenia and now schizoid,schizotype , paranoid, PDs, and to some avoidant "pd"

Fortune
02-26-16, 03:50 AM
Except that recent research has identified it in people outside of the schizophrenia spectrum.

Are we going to keep going in circles here?

daveddd
02-26-16, 06:53 AM
Except that recent research has identified it in people outside of the schizophrenia spectrum.

Are we going to keep going in circles here?

I'm not going in circles,I'm just providing an opinion based off research

just provided research that there is a possibility that ADHD can be linked to schizophrenia

I'm interested in the research that says people with ADHD experience thought disorders and do not meet the criteria for a schizophrenia spectrum disorder if you have it

Fortune
02-26-16, 06:59 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501697 - ADHD

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18297385 - Autism

Linking ADHD to schizophrenia does not make ADHD schizophrenia.

daveddd
02-26-16, 07:16 PM
doesn't say much , but its something i guess, and taken with children aged before the most common onset age of schizophrenia symptoms

my friends with schizophrenia only had a dx of ADHD at that age too, coincidentally

but friend anecdotes are pretty useless




but looking back carefully at the original post it actually says "Is there a connection between SCT and schizophrenia or schizoid personality traits?


not

"Linking ADHD to schizophrenia does not make ADHD schizophrenia."'

so I'm really not sure why you keep talking to me in that manner


AVPD, heavy evidence on the schizophrenia spectrum, and the highest PD in ADHD


several genetic variants that can lead to a combination of both symptom groups

so from the view of mental illness being completely distinct categories the answer is no

thats not where the op seems to be coming from, so i gave my opinion with research

Fortune
02-26-16, 07:46 PM
Here's some discussion of adults with ADHD and formal thought disorder:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582741/

I keep talking to you like you're saying that because you keep saying that. You did it again in this post, trying to draw a direct connection between ADHD and SZA through AVPD. AVPD might be on the SZ spectrum and AVPD might be the most common PD in people with ADHD, but this still doesn't put ADHD and SZ on the same spectrum, just potentially related at best.

My point about all this is if people with ADHD present with formal thought disorder symptoms, then the presence of such symptoms does not necessarily reflect a connection to the SZ spectrum, as the OP was suggesting was the case with SCT.

To phrase my answer as briefly as possible: "That is not necessarily the case."

mctavish23
02-26-16, 11:45 PM
As someone who did this for a living for a total of 40 years, ADHD is NOT considered to

be a "thought disorder;" as there's NO indication of irrationality.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Pilgrim
02-27-16, 01:23 AM
From a layman, I had a stepfather and he had schizophrenia. Now I spent a lot of time with him growing up. I don't think ADD and schizophrenia are similar at all.

We could be traveling somewhere and there would be me talking and trying to engage and he would space out. That's the way it felt. I got use to t though.

When he was bad, the thought disorder patterns were the problem. He couldn't function. He was quite passive.

daveddd
02-27-16, 02:04 AM
Here's some discussion of adults with ADHD and formal thought disorder:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582741/

I keep talking to you like you're saying that because you keep saying that. You did it again in this post, trying to draw a direct connection between ADHD and SZA through AVPD. AVPD might be on the SZ spectrum and AVPD might be the most common PD in people with ADHD, but this still doesn't put ADHD and SZ on the same spectrum, just potentially related at best.

My point about all this is if people with ADHD present with formal thought disorder symptoms, then the presence of such symptoms does not necessarily reflect a connection to the SZ spectrum, as the OP was suggesting was the case with SCT.

To phrase my answer as briefly as possible: "That is not necessarily the case."

"That is not necessarily the case."

that could be a valid opinion

i just suggested that genetic phenotyping shows there could be a connection in some peoples ADHD and the schizophrenia spectrum, its well known that ADHD is not one specific thing, but just a cluster of traits

along with meehls schizotype that has been cited for decades that the vulnerability may exist in a large population , but many other present with justcognitive symptoms , that likely nowadays would be labeled ADHD

daveddd
02-27-16, 02:51 AM
i know we've been talking about psychosis and thought disorders

but i think the negative symptoms are what could be the link

i think thats what the OP was actually getting at

mctavish23
02-27-16, 12:30 PM
dave,

I agree. However, I also need to respectfully add that "Correlation doesn't =

causation." :)


tc

Robert

daveddd
02-27-16, 12:37 PM
dave,

I agree. However, I also need to respectfully add that "Correlation doesn't =

causation." :)


tc

Robert

i know, just a thought , i hate to state facts when talking about this stuff because they're aren't many

i really found millons hyper arousal (sympathetic) and hypo arousal (parasympathetic ) model of mental illness interesting

paranoid schizophrenia on one end and catatonic on the other, with everything in between

though he also made it clear there is a uncountable number of inborn or acquired issues, that effect the CNS this way

Fortune
02-27-16, 07:58 PM
Should add that there really is no such thing as the SZ spectrum. Schizophrenia is most likely a collection of conditions that share a set of symptoms.

daveddd
02-27-16, 08:28 PM
Should add that there really is no such thing as the SZ spectrum. Schizophrenia is most likely a collection of conditions that share a set of symptoms.

That's kind of been my point. That someone's ADHD may be caused by the same thing that under the right circumstances can progress to a schizophrenic condition:)

Donny997
02-28-16, 05:52 PM
Interesting stuff... I wondered about this too for some time becsuse the descriptions can use similar terminology like "spacing out," "timid," "withdrawn," etc.

SCT can sound like schizoid because of the shyness and social withdrawl but IMO they're completely distinct. SCTers avoid because of an organic problem, they struggle to keep up cognitively. Schizoids avoid because of early trauma induced or inherited psychic defect in capacity to relate intimately, emotionally. SCTers are often very kind, good-hearted people. Emotionally warm, not cold. Their social difficulties and anxiety don't stem from emotional blandness, but perhaps cognitive blandness? They're "not with it" cognitively (they're a little slower?), unlike the schizoid who I've read described as not being with it in terms of emotional reciprication and awareness. However they can be congitively all there and sharp.

Archetypally, schizoids are private intellectuals; SCTers are easy-going post-office workers, lol. The movie Nacho Libre is filled with characters who seem SCT. Throw them in a faster-paced competitive Western Society and anxiety and withdrawl is inevitable.

Any person with "slow" mentation is gonna experience anxiety, especially in fast paced social situations. Their slow responsiveness would seem to erode their confidence and cause withdrawl. I would suggest there may be a more plausible connection between SCT and dependent P, where "cognitive" competence becomes more of an issue.

daveddd
02-28-16, 08:10 PM
Interesting stuff... I wondered about this too for some time becsuse the descriptions can use similar terminology like "spacing out," "timid," "withdrawn," etc.

SCT can sound like schizoid because of the shyness and social withdrawl but IMO they're completely distinct. SCTers avoid because of an organic problem, they struggle to keep up cognitively. Schizoids avoid because of early trauma induced or inherited psychic defect in capacity to relate intimately, emotionally. SCTers are often very kind, good-hearted people. Emotionally warm, not cold. Their social difficulties and anxiety don't stem from emotional blandness, but perhaps cognitive blandness? They're "not with it" cognitively (they're a little slower?), unlike the schizoid who I've read described as not being with it in terms of emotional reciprication and awareness. However they can be congitively all there and sharp.

Archetypally, schizoids are private intellectuals; SCTers are easy-going post-office workers, lol. The movie Nacho Libre is filled with characters who seem SCT. Throw them in a faster-paced competitive Western Society and anxiety and withdrawl is inevitable.

Any person with "slow" mentation is gonna experience anxiety, especially in fast paced social situations. Their slow responsiveness would seem to erode their confidence and cause withdrawl. I would suggest there may be a more plausible connection between SCT and dependent P, where "cognitive" competence becomes more of an issue.

this could be true

i haven't seen a cognitive profile of SCT delineated

the only thing i would say is mostly all writing on schizoid involves constitutional differences , with some still adding early trauma, but it doesn't seem to be a necessity

Donny997
02-28-16, 11:04 PM
this could be true

i haven't seen a cognitive profile of SCT delineated

the only thing i would say is mostly all writing on schizoid involves constitutional differences , with some still adding early trauma, but it doesn't seem to be a necessity

Yeah I'm just speculating. I think by and large most layman would intuitively have a feel for how an SCT person presents themselves: slow, drowsy, spacey, staring. I heard Barkley mention this subset may tend - but not always - toward a lower IQ because of lower scores in areas like processing speed.

Here's the article mentioning the trait of interpersonal kindness in SCT. This would seem to differentiate SCT from the schizoid spectrum. Not saying anyone on that spectrum is not a nice person, quite the contrary. But they usually don't PRESENT as obviosuly caring, trusting souls like SCTers illustrated in this article: http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(05)82654-X/pdf

"Persons with the primary disorder of vigilance have a remarkably kind and caring temperament." Winni the Pooh and Dopey from Snow White anyone?

Fortune
02-29-16, 09:47 AM
That's kind of been my point. That someone's ADHD may be caused by the same thing that under the right circumstances can progress to a schizophrenic condition:)

I don't think that conclusion follows. ADHD isn't a prodromal phase, it's a lifelong condition for many, and some others outgrow it as adults. SZ has a prodromal phase that most often starts in adulthood.

daveddd
02-29-16, 10:40 AM
Several people with sz will have been dx with ADHD in childhood

It's non specific

Donny997
02-29-16, 10:53 AM
Several people with sz will have been dx with ADHD in childhood

It's non specific

I have seen this too from experience but I think they're completely unrelated.

daveddd
02-29-16, 01:08 PM
I have seen this too from experience but I think they're completely unrelated.

i think it depends on your view and people are welcome to either, because neither has been proven

mental illness is distinct categories, similar to viral infections

mental illness is a dimensional phenomena that varies in normal traits due to vulnerabilities

Donny997
02-29-16, 04:41 PM
i think it depends on your view and people are welcome to either, because neither has been proven

mental illness is distinct categories, similar to viral infections

mental illness is a dimensional phenomena that varies in normal traits due to vulnerabilities

Yeah but the very variation in normal traits implies distinct traits that lead to distinct illnesses. IMO a categorical and dimensional model can be used at the same time, so you'd see a dimension from schizophrenia to avoidant to normal shyness. But that dimension is qualitatively different from the narcissistic spectrum. Unless you aruge that there are no separate dimensions... just schizophrenia to normality.

Edit: There's two reasons I dont think you can do that. Because I think the different mental illnesses and personality disorders can't always be thought of as one being healthier than the other. Traditionally theorists would day the OCPD and hysteric are healthier personalities than say the narcissist or the schizoid because of maturity of defenses. But I think all personalities all deal with qualitatively distinct issues. So who's to say the sschizoidd social isolstion is more severe on the dimension than a narcissist's almost psychopathic exploitivness? One's dealing with an issue of social contact, the other with boundary and self-esteem regulation.

So my point is, I don't think SCT is on the schizo dimension. I would place it on a totally distinct cognitive impairment spectrum.

daveddd
02-29-16, 05:14 PM
IMO a categorical and dimensional model can be used at the same time, so you'd see a dimension from schizophrenia to avoidant to normal shyness. But that dimension is qualitatively different from the narcissistic spectrum.

Unless you argue that there are no separate dimensions... just schizophrenia to normality.

i think both


looking at this replicated study by joel nigg

two ADHDs, two different variations of emotional regulation

hypersensitive , and unemotional callous

J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2013 Feb;52(2):163-171.e2. doi: 10.1016/j.jaac.2012.11.009.
Emotion regulation and heterogeneity in attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.
Musser ED1, Galloway-Long HS, Frick PJ, Nigg JT.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
How best to capture heterogeneity in attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) using biomarkers has been elusive. This study evaluated whether emotion reactivity and regulation provide a means to achieve this.
METHOD:
Participants were classified into three groups: children with ADHD plus low prosocial behavior (hypothesized to be high in callous/unemotional traits; n = 21); children with ADHD with age-appropriate prosocial behavior (n = 54); and typically developing children (n = 75). Children completed a task with four conditions: negative induction, negative suppression, positive induction, and positive suppression of affect. The task required children to view an emotion-laden film clip, while either facially mimicking (induction) or masking (suppression) the emotion of the main character. Parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system activity were assessed via respiratory sinus arrhythmia (RSA) and cardiac pre-ejection period (PEP), respectively. Symptoms of anxiety, conduct, and oppositional defiant disorders were treated as covariates.
RESULTS:
The ADHD-typical-prosocial group displayed atypically elevated parasympathetic reactivity (emotion dysregulation) during positive induction, along with increased sympathetic activity (elevated arousal) across conditions. In contrast, the ADHD-low-prosocial group displayed reduced parasympathetic reactivity and reduced sympathetic activity (low emotional arousal) across baseline and task conditions. Thus, both ADHD groups had altered patterns of autonomic functioning, but in two distinct forms.
CONCLUSION:
Although ADHD is heterogeneous clinically, results suggest that ADHD is also heterogeneous with regard to physiological indices of emotion and regulation. Future studies of emotion, regulation, and ADHD should take this into account. Further study of physiological responding in ADHD may yield clinically and etiologically distinct domains or groups.
Copyright © 2013 American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
PMID: 23357443 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] PMCID: PMC4278408 Free PMC Article


now start adding in different traits and defenses,

i think the axis 1s can line the spectrum both ways , with different types

viewing ADHD as a disorder of emotional regulation , not one disorder with one specific style of emotional regulation


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23357443

aeon
02-29-16, 06:26 PM
In consideration of SCT and a “schizophrenia spectrum,” my sense that they are not related is based on comparison and contrast of heritability, involved expressor genes and related neurotrophic factors, age of onset, the involved dopaminergic pathways in schizophrenia versus those showing biomarkers in ADHD, lack of true parallels in SCT for the positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia, differences in prevalence by sex, and so on.

Do they have things in common? Yes, on a level of casual investigation.

Once beyond that, the differences that present are broad and deep.


Cheers,
Ian

Trantuete
02-29-16, 06:30 PM
i know we've been talking about psychosis and thought disorders

but i think the negative symptoms are what could be the link

i think thats what the OP was actually getting at

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Great to see so much activity, will write more tomorrow.

Certainly, ADHD is not an thought disorder or a prodrome for schizophrenia. Did not mean to imply that. But I was getting at SCT specifically. And the research we have seems to suggest that SCT and ADHD are two distinct but related animals. So maybe the equation is like that:
ADHD + additional genes for negative symptoms of schizophrenia = all in one individual = leads to conflicting symptoms that cancel each other out somewhat = result is a clinical picture like SCT which resembles, but is not, schizophrenia without psychosis (of course pure speculation).

Also, I could have been more precise, didn't meant schizophrenia in general is linked to SCT but had subtypes like hebephrenia/ disorganized schizophrenia in mind when I wrote the post. Unlike other subtypes, it may start in childhood/adolescence (like ADHD), presents primarily with negative symptoms and is linked to personality traits such as being shy and solitary.

daveddd
02-29-16, 06:38 PM
In consideration of SCT and a “schizophrenia spectrum,” my sense that they are not related is based on comparison and contrast of heritability, involved expressor genes and related neurotrophic factors, age of onset, the involved dopaminergic pathways in schizophrenia versus those showing biomarkers in ADHD, lack of true parallels in SCT for the positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia, differences in prevalence by sex, and so on.

Do they have things in common? Yes, on a level of casual investigation.

Once beyond that, the differences that present are broad and deep.


Cheers,
Ian


that could make sense

I've seen dopamine studies all over the map for both disorders though

and I've shown at least one common gene marker and know of at least a couple more

it will be awhile before any of this will be proven in either direction though

me personally, i just don't like ruling things out, when i can't definitively rule it out

daveddd
02-29-16, 06:49 PM
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Great to see so much activity, will write more tomorrow.

Of course, ADHD is not an thought disorder or a prodrome for schizophrenia. Did not mean to imply that. But I was getting at SCT specifically. And the research we have seems to suggest that SCT and ADHD are two distinct but related animals. So maybe the equation is like that:
ADHD + additional genes for negative symptoms of schizophrenia = leads to conflicting symptoms that cancel each other out somewhat = result is the clinical picture of SCT which resembles, but is not, (hebephrenic) schizophrenia

Also, I could have been more precise, didn't mean schizophrenia in general is linked to SCT but had subtypes like hebephrenia/ disorganized schizophrenia in mind when I wrote the post. Unlike other subtypes, they seem to start in childhood/adolescence (like ADHD) and present primarily with negative symptoms.

i don't have much info on it

but for an in depth look at cognitive profiles of schizoid (the more negative based non psychotic disorder or schizotypal the more positive based non psychotic)

check meehls schizotype

just google it in google books

very in depth

Donny997
02-29-16, 07:05 PM
Is ADHD even considered a mental illness? I know pop culture would term it as such but I see it more as a cognitive disorder that secondarily affects emotion regulation and interpersonal skills.

So ADHD and SCT would be more suitable on a dimension with intellectual disability, learning disorders, etc. all the way up to mild attentional difficulties or processing speed issues. ADHDers, SCTers, and even learning disabled folks don't strike me as having mental illness.. they just strike me as a little drunk haha

Fortune
02-29-16, 07:20 PM
Several people with sz will have been dx with ADHD in childhood

It's non specific

Correlation is not causation.

daveddd
02-29-16, 07:28 PM
Correlation is not causation.

easy enough to say


just like, i don't believe in coincidences

Fortune
02-29-16, 07:30 PM
easy enough to say


just like, i don't believe in coincidences

I didn't say anything about coincidences. But you can't really point to a person who was diagnosed with ADHD as a child and SZ later and say "A ha! They're connected!" You need much more rigorous evidence for that.

daveddd
02-29-16, 07:34 PM
But you can't disprove it

daveddd
02-29-16, 07:35 PM
Is ADHD even considered a mental illness? I know pop culture would term it as such but I see it more as a cognitive disorder that secondarily affects emotion regulation and interpersonal skills.

So ADHD and SCT would be more suitable on a dimension with intellectual disability, learning disorders, etc. all the way up to mild attentional difficulties or processing speed issues. ADHDers, SCTers, and even learning disabled folks don't strike me as having mental illness.. they just strike me as a little drunk haha

I guess it depends how you view

I think of it as an emotional regulation disorders that affects cognitivr

Fortune
02-29-16, 07:36 PM
But you can't disprove it

Given that you're the one making contentious claims here, the burden isn't on me to prove or disprove anything.

Donny997
02-29-16, 07:47 PM
I didn't say anything about coincidences. But you can't really point to a person who was diagnosed with ADHD as a child and SZ later and say "A ha! They're connected!" You need much more rigorous evidence for that.

I agree. It's not really a coincidence if you look at it like this. A woman's side of the family riddled with ADHD, causing high impairment socially and occupationally. Her ancestors are not very functional because of ADHD. This women meets a man who is similarly impaired occupationally and socially, but due to schizophrenia, or perhaps a highly introverted schizoid personality. They connect due, among other things, to their struggles. They have sex and have a child who's susceptible to both ADHD and schizo spectrum disorders. On the bright side, said child might also inherit the creativity and humour associated with ADHD and piercing intelligence associated with schizoid. The weird get weirder.

Oh and hey... guess what? A physically attractive, intelligent woman free of emotional or cognitive disorders is also likely to have kids with a man of similar pedigree, producing impeccable offspring, making those of us with multiple problems look all that much worse in comparison. Haha.

I think searching for a relatedness between something like SCT and schizophrenia is keeping your nose too close to the grindstone. However I am totally open to the idea of it if there was somehow proof of them being different sides of the same coin. Different coins, though IMO. Might even be different currencies.

daveddd
02-29-16, 08:05 PM
I'm not making claims. I provided evidence that the possibility exists

Not just goin off my opinion

daveddd
02-29-16, 08:12 PM
I agree. It's not really a coincidence if you look at it like this. A woman's side of the family riddled with ADHD, causing high impairment socially and occupationally. Her ancestors are not very functional because of ADHD. This women meets a man who is similarly impaired occupationally and socially, but due to schizophrenia, or perhaps a highly introverted schizoid personality. They connect due, among other things, to their struggles. They have sex and have a child who's susceptible to both ADHD and schizo spectrum disorders. On the bright side, said child might also inherit the creativity and humour associated with ADHD and piercing intelligence associated with schizoid. The weird get weirder.

Oh and hey... guess what? A physically attractive, intelligent woman free of emotional or cognitive disorders is also likely to have kids with a man of similar pedigree, producing impeccable offspring, making those of us with multiple problems look all that much worse in comparison. Haha.

I think searching for a relatedness between something like SCT and schizophrenia is keeping your nose too close to the grindstone. However I am totally open to the idea of it if there was somehow proof of them being different sides of the same coin. Different coins, though IMO. Might even be different currencies.

the issue is in current psychology, nothing is proven

things are disproven at best

but with genetic phenotyping , I've seen links between some peoples ADHD and some peoples schizophrenia presenting fairly well

daveddd
02-29-16, 08:15 PM
that doesn't mean i think its a proven fact

i just tend to look at these things objectively

aeon
02-29-16, 08:34 PM
I've seen dopamine studies all over the map for both disorders though

As have I, but I have seen differential aspects that have been consistent among all of them.

and I've shown at least one common gene marker and know of at least a couple more

And that is exactly the kind of casual investigation I was referring to.

it will be awhile before any of this will be proven in either direction though

This is likely, yes, but it may become more known sooner than we might guess if the money-carrot drives research.

me personally, i just don't like ruling things out, when i can't definitively rule it out

Fair enough, and I agree. I remain open to new evidence, and what rigorous science and clinical practice might show us.

That said, relatedness between these two things seems doubtful at best given what we know at this point in time.

It would take more than new evidence to change perspective on this inasmuch base frameworks would have to be discarded that are borne of masses of other evidence which have survived all manner of testing and peer review.


Cheers,
Ian

daveddd
02-29-16, 08:43 PM
As have I, but I have seen differential aspects that have been consistent among all of them.



And that is exactly the kind of casual investigation I was referring to.



This is likely, yes, but it may become more known sooner than we might guess if the money-carrot drives research.



Fair enough, and I agree. I remain open to new evidence, and what rigorous science and clinical practice might show us.

That said, relatedness between these two things seems doubtful at best given what we know at this point in time.

It would take more than new evidence to change perspective on this inasmuch base frameworks would have to be discarded that are borne of masses of other evidence which have survived all manner of testing and peer review.


Cheers,
Ian

I consider genetic phenotype research the opposite of casual

I'm still very curious for someone to present non casual research. But so far it seems opinion based

I don't have a ton of text on sz. But what I do does not rule things the way it is here


But I would objectively read some

Donny997
02-29-16, 09:32 PM
the issue is in current psychology, nothing is proven

things are disproven at best

but with genetic phenotyping , I've seen links between some peoples ADHD and some peoples schizophrenia presenting fairly well

I know it can't be proven but with what we're trying to link here, it would be just as valid to say Dependent personality disorder may be at the high end of the schizophrenia dimention. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I know you can say well SCT has more relation to schizo negative symptoms, but what I'm arguing is that SCT is not similar, but only appears so because of the limitation of the words we use. A description of the thing is not the same as the thing itself.

mctavish23
02-29-16, 11:56 PM
I've already weighed in on this, and the answer still remains NO !!!

Remember that ALL mental disorders contain cognitive impairments of some type or the

other; just as Inattention is ubiquitous.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

daveddd
03-01-16, 08:51 AM
I'll continue to offer some info to the op if he likes

There is some info that suggests it's a possibility

daveddd
03-01-16, 08:53 AM
I don't think it's a fact

But again I think you guys assume your ADHD is everyone's and that they are all the same


Science says it's not

daveddd
03-01-16, 08:58 AM
I've already weighed in on this, and the answer still remains NO !!!

Remember that ALL mental disorders contain cognitive impairments of some type or the

other; just as Inattention is ubiquitous.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

I appreciate ur opinion. Buy the op and I reserve the right to look at science from all research

daveddd
03-01-16, 09:44 AM
Just an FYI. I'm not just making things up. I base this off millon who literally wrote the dsm on pds and received a lifetime achievement award for it

I'm not just tryin to be contrarian

daveddd
03-01-16, 12:07 PM
Mc T

Question

I know attention is involved in the whole mental health spectrum

You originally told me. ADHD was in 85% of bipolar. How do you seperate those


And are they completed unrelated too despite that huge number?

Honest question.

Fortune
03-01-16, 02:52 PM
I don't think it's a fact

But again I think you guys assume your ADHD is everyone's and that they are all the same


Science says it's not

I think you're projecting something there and it's not necessarily an attitude in evidence from anyone else. Plus, telepathy is notoriously unreliable.

Like my point about ADHD not being a prodromal state wasn't based specifically on my own experiences having ADHD but rather on the extensive literature about ADHD.

Fortune
03-01-16, 02:53 PM
Just an FYI. I'm not just making things up. I base this off millon who literally wrote the dsm on pds and received a lifetime achievement award for it

I'm not just tryin to be contrarian

Wait, you're basing "ADHD is connected to schizophrenia" on Millon's work on PDs? That's kind of a big stretch there. Or did I miss the thrust of your argument?

daveddd
03-01-16, 03:06 PM
He has a whole multi axial spectrum

daveddd
03-01-16, 03:07 PM
And the op asked about schizoid as wel

daveddd
03-01-16, 03:08 PM
I think you're projecting something there and it's not necessarily an attitude in evidence from anyone else. Plus, telepathy is notoriously unreliable.

Like my point about ADHD not being a prodromal state wasn't based specifically on my own experiences having ADHD but rather on the extensive literature about ADHD.

Which literature rules it out

Fortune
03-01-16, 03:10 PM
He has a whole multi axial spectrum

This answer isn't very informative.

Also, there's not really much of a link between schizoid PD and schizophrenia. There was believed to be in theory, but not so much in practice.

Schizotypal, otoh, has positive features in common with SZ. Positive in this sense not meaning "good" but referring to symptom types.

daveddd
03-01-16, 03:11 PM
I think you're projecting something there and it's not necessarily an attitude in evidence from anyone else. Plus, telepathy is notoriously unreliable.

Like my point about ADHD not being a prodromal state wasn't based specifically on my own experiences having ADHD but rather on the extensive literature about ADHD.

Telepathy. You're definitely rude. That's reliable

daveddd
03-01-16, 03:12 PM
This answer isn't very informative.

Also, there's not really much of a link between schizoid PD and schizophrenia. There was believed to be in theory, but not so much in practice.

Schizotypal, otoh, has positive features in common with SZ. Positive in this sense not meaning "good" but referring to symptom types.

Nothing you say is very informative

Other than everyone is always wrong

Fortune
03-01-16, 03:36 PM
Telepathy. You're definitely rude. That's reliable

The telepathy comment was snarky, but the point was you're projecting a perspective on people that they're not communicating. I certainly am not arguing anything that resembles "everyone's ADHD is exactly like mine."

Nothing you say is very informative

Other than everyone is always wrong

That is not an accurate characterization of what I post. I disagree with much of what you say, but that's because the literature I've read tends to lead to different conclusions.

daveddd
03-01-16, 05:15 PM
for the OP

genetic phenotyping is what these connections are coming from interesting stuff

A Cross-Disorder Method to Identify Novel Candidate Genes for Developmental Brain Disorders.
Gonzalez-Mantilla AJ1, Moreno-De-Luca A2, Ledbetter DH3, Martin CL3.
Author information
Abstract
IMPORTANCE:
Developmental brain disorders are a group of clinically and genetically heterogeneous disorders characterized by high heritability. Specific highly penetrant genetic causes can often be shared by a subset of individuals with different phenotypic features, and recent advances in genome sequencing have allowed the rapid and cost-effective identification of many of these pathogenic variants.
OBJECTIVES:
To identify novel candidate genes for developmental brain disorders and provide additional evidence of previously implicated genes.
DATA SOURCES:
The PubMed database was searched for studies published from March 28, 2003, through May 7, 2015, with large cohorts of individuals with developmental brain disorders.
DATA EXTRACTION AND SYNTHESIS:
A tiered, multilevel data-integration approach was used, which intersects (1) whole-genome data from structural and sequence pathogenic loss-of-function (pLOF) variants, (2) phenotype data from 6 apparently distinct disorders (intellectual disability, autism, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and epilepsy), and (3) additional data from large-scale studies, smaller cohorts, and case reports focusing on specific candidate genes. All candidate genes were ranked into 4 tiers based on the strength of evidence as follows: tier 1, genes with 3 or more de novo pathogenic loss-of-function variants; tier 2, genes with 2 de novo pathogenic loss-of-function variants; tier 3, genes with 1 de novo pathogenic loss-of-function variant; and tier 4, genes with only inherited (or unknown inheritance) pathogenic loss-of-function variants.
MAIN OUTCOMES AND MEASURES:
Development of a comprehensive knowledge base of candidate genes related to developmental brain disorders. Genes were prioritized based on the inheritance pattern and total number of pathogenic loss-of-function variants identified amongst unrelated individuals with any one of six developmental brain disorders.
STUDY SELECTION:
A combination of phenotype-based and genotype-based literature review yielded 384 studies that used whole-genome or exome sequencing, chromosomal microarray analysis, and/or targeted sequencing to evaluate 1960 individuals with developmental brain disorders.
RESULTS:
Our initial phenotype-based literature review yielded 1911 individuals with pLOF variants involving 1034 genes from 118 studies. Filtering our results to genes with 2 or more pLOF variants identified in at least 2 unrelated individuals resulted in 241 genes from 1110 individuals. Of the 241 genes involved in brain disorders, 7 were novel high-confidence genes and 10 were novel putative candidate genes. Fifty-nine genes were ranked in tier 1, 44 in tier 2, 68 in tier 3, and 70 in tier 4. By transcending clinical diagnostic boundaries, the evidence level for 18 additional genes that were ranked 1 tier higher because of this cross-disorder approach was increased.
CONCLUSIONS AND RELEVANCE:
This approach increased the yield of gene discovery over what would be obtained if each disorder, type of genomic variant, and study design were analyzed independently. 2) phenotype data from 6 apparently distinct disorders These results provide further support for shared genomic causes among apparently different disorders and demonstrate the clinical and genetic heterogeneity of developmental brain disorders.


interesting parts

Developmental brain disorders are a group of clinically and genetically heterogeneous disorders characterized by high heritability. Specific highly penetrant genetic causes can often be shared by a subset of individuals with different phenotypic features,

2) phenotype data from 6 apparently distinct disorders (intellectual disability, autism, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and exile


These results provide further support for shared genomic causes among apparently different disorders and demonstrate the clinical and genetic heterogeneity of developmental brain disorders.


this may leave some commanilitys

Donny997
03-01-16, 06:08 PM
I think I missed something, what does Millon have to do with this? If you mean his descriptions of schizoid sound like SCT, then I'd say I'd agree, which has created a lot of confusion for me. Hearing him go on about the laziness, apathy, spaceyness, motor passivity, etc. I was like wow that's so me. But then I learned the hard way the danger of self-diagnosis and the importance of differential diagnosis: two diseases having similar symptoms, or similar sounding descriptions of symptoms, but being different entities with different etiolgies.

Someone should just email Russell Barkley about this lol. I don't think it would be an annoyance since we all agree that the descriptions sound very similar.

Also, I want to add that I learned yesterday that Borderline Personality Disorder has at least 5 distinct types. These different types are distinct manifestations but similar, so two people talking about borderline personality could be referring to different entities. One may be referring to ego structure deficit problems and the other to the interpersonal clinginess. So it's possible it's the same with SCT... perhaps there is a subtype or version of it that occurs with the schizoid spectrum. But even still I hold that there's a fundamental difference between interpersonal (schizoid) and cognitive (sct) spaceyness. Instead of relying on words in textbooks which have misled me in the past, I now rely on actual people I've met who at the very least probably had a normal-level schizoid style.

daveddd
03-01-16, 06:15 PM
No that's not it

Millon had a multi axial spectrum

You have to remember sct was just invented. That does mean people didn't always have it

Sometimes you have to think outside the box when research anything older

Do you think psychiatrists would even look for schizoid today? A majority

Different schools isn't always different disorders

Donny997
03-01-16, 06:46 PM
I'm not getting it... lol. Multi-axial meaning what exactly?

Donny997
03-01-16, 06:49 PM
I think we're arguing in circles here cause even if SCT is new I don't think you can just say it's a newer term for schizoid symptoms because thats what the term schizoid is for.

Donny997
03-01-16, 06:54 PM
And yes absolutely clinicians would look for schizoid dynamics if thats whats presented... if they're trained in personality disgnosis or a psychoanalytic school. But even if they're not, I think they might use terms like introvert, aloof, cool personality, isolated, etc., and not terms of sct.

daveddd
03-01-16, 07:34 PM
I think we're arguing in circles here cause even if SCT is new I don't think you can just say it's a newer term for schizoid symptoms because thats what the term schizoid is for.


this isn't what I'm doing

I'm just going to offer the OP some info


feel free to do the same

Donny997
03-01-16, 08:23 PM
It's all good and I appreciate the info. Can I suggest in addition to providing studies linking ADHD to other schizo, can we try to paint a picture of what a pure sct person would look like. I think the use of fiction characters is useful.

I would say the best portrayal I've seen in cinema is Napolean Dynamite.

mctavish23
03-01-16, 08:40 PM
dave,

It's considered a "one way comorbidity;" based strictly on the genetic propensity for Bi-

-polar being present (vs ADHD alone).

As far as looking at "research from all sources," I can only say that I look at those data

which have been found to meet the scientific method's "gold standard (i.e., longitudinal

reliability and validity; especially ecological validity)."

tc

Robert

daveddd
03-02-16, 10:45 AM
dave,

It's considered a "one way comorbidity;" based strictly on the genetic propensity for Bi-

-polar being present (vs ADHD alone).

As far as looking at "research from all sources," I can only say that I look at those data

which have been found to meet the scientific method's "gold standard (i.e., longitudinal

reliability and validity; especially ecological validity)."

tc

Robert


Agreed. That's why I tend to use millon nigg. And the likes

Donny997
03-06-16, 07:22 PM
I'm leaning toward the idea that a bunch of personality types are more likely to display SCT. I personally believe, studying the psychogenic causes of add and SCT, that a failure to build a strong ego/ self is a core problem, leading to many, many residual cognitive (sct), beahvioural (laziness; impulsivity; pleasure seeking), and affective (emotional dysregulation) problems. All these residual problems that Adders and SCTers deal with that are more classically categorized under "personality issues," can be thought of as resulting from failure of proper ego development where the child individuates emotionally and psychologically from parents, develops a sense of self and with that the capacity to regulate his own emotions, behaviour, and think his own thoughts.

Without a strong and autnomous ego, you live more in the realm of Freud's pleasure principle, where thinking and adapting to reality isn't a primary concern. So it's almost obvious to say that these types would present with problems such as "blank mind," "no thoughts;" etc.

So in conclusion, I think those personality disorders characterized by stronger emphasis on ego functions would be less likely to have SCT, such as narcissistic and compulsive personality types, whereas those with a less differentiated ego would be more likely to exhibit SCT: Schizoid, schizotypal, schizophrenic, passive-aggressive, dependent, borderline, and avoidant. What do the latter have in common? A passive rather than active orientation.

Roundmouth
04-21-16, 06:26 PM
I've been reading a lot about SCT the last few days, and this thread is started in the Inattentive ADD section. From what I've read it's supposed to be a NP condition, possibly the same one that's being diagnosed ADHD-PI. Barkley wants it renamed Concentration Deficit Disorder to indicate a relation to ADHD, yet not an ADHD subtype.

In some parts of the world, the term ADD has been used for ADHD without Hperativity. I don't like that. Hyper or hypo... there's a problem with regulation of activity. I've never met someone with ADHD being completely normal when it comes to activity, whether the normal status is high or low. But still I can imagine conditions where concentration and attention is a problem though not necessarily activity and impulsivity. CDD may perhaps be a relevant term for such conditions.

Steppe
05-21-16, 07:57 PM
A NIH news release video detailing the identification of the 100 high risk schizophrenia genes and the most deadly C4A C4B. immune system genes that usually initiate a healthy neural connection pruning process in puberty that is then converted to a runaway brain wasting process by C4A C4B. The root cause of schizophrenia is now
settled science. ADHD in childhood quadruples the risk of schizophrenia.
If you ever known one or two people before they came down with a severe case and watched them get sick it's painful to watch.
Opening Schizophrenia's Black Box - National Institute of Health.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2016/schizophrenias-strongest-known-genetic-risk-deconstructed.shtml

sarahsweets
05-21-16, 10:06 PM
A NIH news release video detailing the identification of the 100 high risk schizophrenia genes and the most deadly C4A C4B. immune system genes that usually initiate a healthy neural connection pruning process in puberty that is then converted to a runaway brain wasting process by C4A C4B. The root cause of schizophrenia is now
settled science. ADHD in childhood quadruples the risk of schizophrenia.
If you ever known one or two people before they came down with a severe case and watched them get sick it's painful to watch.
Opening Schizophrenia's Black Box - National Institute of Health.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2016/schizophrenias-strongest-known-genetic-risk-deconstructed.shtml

If this is true, not only am I f**ked but petrified as well.

Trantuete
05-24-16, 06:49 PM
.
In some parts of the world, the term ADD has been used for ADHD without Hperativity. I don't like that. Hyper or hypo... there's a problem with regulation of activity. I've never met someone with ADHD being completely normal when it comes to activity, whether the normal status is high or low. But still I can imagine conditions where concentration and attention is a problem though not necessarily activity and impulsivity. CDD may perhaps be a relevant term for such conditions.

Yes, it's true that ADHD affects the regulation of activity in general (which includes both Hyper- and Hypo-Activity). But I think the activity level is the least relevant thing to look at, both in ADHD and SCT. It doesn't tell you anything. It's just the most obvious thing you see. And it doesn't distinguish the two. The real differences between ADHD and SCT seem to be in temperament and attention style.

A NIH news release video detailing the identification of the 100 high risk schizophrenia genes and the most deadly C4A C4B. immune system genes that usually initiate a healthy neural connection pruning process in puberty that is then converted to a runaway brain wasting process by C4A C4B. The root cause of schizophrenia is now
settled science. ADHD in childhood quadruples the risk of schizophrenia.
If you ever known one or two people before they came down with a severe case and watched them get sick it's painful to watch.
Opening Schizophrenia's Black Box - National Institute of Health.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2016/schizophrenias-strongest-known-genetic-risk-deconstructed.shtml

Where did you get that about the ADHD- Schizophrenia connection?

If this is true, not only am I f**ked but petrified as well.

Don't worry, even it it happens, we will all go nuts together here :D :grouphug:...