View Full Version : Do you tell a person you think they have a personality disorder?


acdc01
03-21-16, 09:17 PM
I know they usually can't accept they have a personality disorder and think it could even harm them more to mention it. So I usually don't say anything.

I do this both in real life and whenever I see someone on this forum I suspect has a PD.

Is that the right choice?

aeon
03-21-16, 09:50 PM
Only if you have a personality disorder yourself.


Cheers,
Ian

Lunacie
03-21-16, 09:59 PM
I'm not qualified to diagnose and inform someone that they have a personality disorder.

If I think they might have undiagnosed ADHD or depression or anxiety disorder, I might suggest they look into those.

Fortune
03-21-16, 10:12 PM
No one here is qualified to diagnose anyone with a personality disorder. It's best to keep such thoughts to one's self, and generally not helpful for anyone to be told they might have a PD.

Fuzzy12
03-22-16, 02:50 AM
Someone on this forum that I considered at that time to be a very good friend tried very hard to convince me that I've got borderline personality disorder. I was going through a terrible time, was super vulnerable and that really made me doubt myself. I think they meant well and i was behaving very erratically at that time but still for me it just made everything worse. Actually it was absolute hell. Funnily enough, they managed to convince others on here that I have bpd who then tried to use that to drive a wedge between me and other friends. Fun times.

aeon
03-22-16, 08:28 AM
Someone on this forum that I considered at that time to be a very good friend tried very hard to convince me that I've got borderline personality disorder. I was going through a terrible time, was super vulnerable and that really made me doubt myself. I think they meant well and i was behaving very erratically at that time but still for me it just made everything worse. Actually it was absolute hell. Funnily enough, they managed to convince others on here that I have bpd who then tried to use that to drive a wedge between me and other friends. Fun times.

Iím so sorry to hear that, Fuzzy. :grouphug:

A pox on them! http://www.sympato.ch/smileys/Pfff.gif


WTF,
Ian

acdc01
03-22-16, 09:07 AM
Thanks guys. Ok I won't ever mention it.

I'm tempted sometimes cause it seems like so many doctors are clueless and just mentioning the possibility (with a disclaimer about how I really don't know since I'm just writing based on a few posts) to someone seemed like a way for them to research the topic on their own and decide for themselves if they have it or not.

My sister was the one who told me I had ADHD first. She's the one always pushing me to get diagnosed and the doctor would always turn me away. So if she, who doesn't have ADHD, hadn't suggested the idea, I wouldn't be diagnosed today.

But I guess it could do more harm than good. People with personality disorders probably can't see it in themselves too I would imagine.

daveddd
03-22-16, 10:03 AM
if you went to 10 psychologists for a PD, you'd get ten different dx

PD categories are useless

here is some interesting stuff on PDs and the DSM5

http://www.amhc.org/1418-dsm-5/article/52343-the-new-dsm-5-personality-disorders

Socaljaxs
03-22-16, 10:03 AM
Sadly, even with the best of intentions, pointing out a possible personality disorder, or any disorder I believe, will often gets mistaking as making fun of or treating then badly or name calling. unless someone asks don't give someone an opinion you aren't qualified or asked of to make that call for

stef
03-22-16, 10:32 AM
I really nicely mentioned it to 3 people I know & sent them info but they say they probably don't have adhd (in France though and it's less known here).
No one was offended, at all. The person I was most sure of (my tenor sax friend from band), said she is certain she has dyslexia and wished people had known about this when she was in school. She's around 55-60. I really think she does though! 10,000 subjects covered in the car, when she drops me off after rehearsal. I am quite fond of her :)

sarahsweets
03-22-16, 10:58 AM
I think suggesting someone has adhd is much different then suggesting someone as a pd.

Simargl
03-22-16, 11:33 AM
Generally, no. I think it depends on the level of closeness and trust you have with the person. I have a friend who is now working on her masters in psychology. She made a couple of gentle suggestions to me which I considered with an open mind. However, I doubt I would have had the same response if someone else had brought it up.

ginniebean
03-22-16, 12:15 PM
My mother was diagnosed with a personality disorder because I told her. I showed her a write up about it and her face went white. I'm guessing at first it was difficult but now she is grateful she knows. She spent all of her adult life seeking answers from psychiatrists, and therapists. She is now angry she wasn't diagnosed sooner. She attends group therapy now and is blown away how much she see's of herself in her group.

That said, I have mentioned the possibility to others and it was not well received.

Everyone is different.

Lunacie
03-22-16, 02:32 PM
My mother was diagnosed with a personality disorder because I told her. I showed her a write up about it and her face went white. I'm guessing at first it was difficult but now she is grateful she knows. She spent all of her adult life seeking answers from psychiatrists, and therapists. She is now angry she wasn't diagnosed sooner. She attends group therapy now and is blown away how much she see's of herself in her group.

That said, I have mentioned the possibility to others and it was not well received.

Everyone is different.

Your mother was looking for answers or a diagnosis.

Someone who isn't aware of their quirks and isn't looking for an answer could be very upset at being given such an answer.

daveddd
03-22-16, 02:41 PM
My mother was diagnosed with a personality disorder because I told her. I showed her a write up about it and her face went white. I'm guessing at first it was difficult but now she is grateful she knows. She spent all of her adult life seeking answers from psychiatrists, and therapists. She is now angry she wasn't diagnosed sooner. She attends group therapy now and is blown away how much she see's of herself in her group.

That said, I have mentioned the possibility to others and it was not well received.

Everyone is different.

I'm still so fascinated by the familiar relationship between ADHD and "PDs"

TheGreatKing
03-22-16, 02:49 PM
Its just that saying i guess
mind your business hehe
just saying

BellaVita
03-22-16, 03:31 PM
I know they usually can't accept they have a personality disorder and think it could even harm them more to mention it. So I usually don't say anything.

I do this both in real life and whenever I see someone on this forum I suspect has a PD.

Is that the right choice?

When my double ex found out, after going through hell, a hospitalization, not allowed to return to our boarding school, and lots of horrible things, he was actually relieved to find out what had been causing so much chaos and pain.

By me mentioning it gently, he finally felt like he had a name for his stuff. He was a pretty classic case though.

He even thanked me and began crying.

acdc01
03-22-16, 09:13 PM
He even thanked me and began crying.

Wow. Now I'm starting to change my mind again. This is a difficult subject to decide on.

People who come here are seeking answers to their suffering. It's just not the answer they were expecting. And like I said, I would give a big disclaimer about how I could be wrong.

I know personality disorders all seem to run together. But I still think it's good to know you have one otherwise you're clueless to your issues.

Fortune
03-22-16, 09:44 PM
I think it's received differently face to face, from someone you know well than it is online. Part of it is that PDs have a huge stigma, part of it is possibly the perception of judgment.

Online, there's really no way to diagnose or even be sure of something like a PD.

Hermus
03-23-16, 04:12 AM
My ex has very clear borderline pd symptoms, according to myself and according to a good friend who has been diagnosed as borderline and knows about our past relationship. However, I think it's not to me to tell her. She is convinced that there is nothing wrong with her (while at the same time having panic attacks and a lot of other problems that show there clearly is), which would make it impossible to bring the message in the right way. Apart from that I think people only will seek help with their problems when they are convinced it is needed themselves. So it's useless pointing it out to someone who is not ready to get helped at all.

KarmanMonkey
03-23-16, 11:04 AM
If I've got a good relationship with the person and I have a good idea how to gently suggest it, I may ask leading questions, or bring something up as a general conversation (i.e. talk about a PD without implying that they have it) and test the waters a little bit.

I'll never directly suggest a diagnosis because, as others have said here, I'm not qualified to diagnose. The most I'll suggest to people is to keep an open mind when they do connect to professionals, because sometimes we get focussed in on one diagnosis (e.g. ADHD) and have a hard time accepting the possibility of alternative explanations for their experiences.

That being said, there's nothing stopping me from researching and learning ways to support people with PDs, as there aren't generally effective pharmacological treatments anyway, so it's more about learning how to better interact with the person, and how to guide them though challenges they might face.

After all, most of the interventions with respect to PDs has to do with respectful listening and helping them learn to be their own devil's advocate, and learing how to better do that is a skill that is useful to have with any interactions I have with people.

ginniebean
03-25-16, 02:26 PM
No one can diagnose anyone with anything online. If someone is on a mental health board or forum already I see no reason to refrain from even mentioning it. It's a bit distuerbing to think that a stigmatized condition


is too stigmatized to even mention.


Just as people familliar with adhd can spot likely adhd behaviour patterns people can also recognise pd behaviour patterns. I really do not think any mental health disorder needs to be stigmatized to the point that it becomes unmemtionable.

Having said that I have experienced friends diagnosing me and I do believe it was maliciously done. I think sensitivity is required but I'm not buying that it is Voldemort.

daveddd
03-26-16, 10:32 AM
other than sociopathic types which are rare

PDs are very misunderstood , which makes its an insult


for a mental health forum I'm often disappointed in the ridicule of them

"ironically" i also see many of the same behaviors

Greyhound1
03-26-16, 11:07 AM
I agree with other posts. If you aren't a Dr. you have no business telling someone they may have a personality disorder. Like davedd said it's an insult.

If someone asked me for my opinion, I would share my thoughts. I can't imagine how to tell someone they might have a PD if they haven't already considered it or acknowledge the possibility already.

acdc01
03-26-16, 11:43 AM
I agree with other posts. If you aren't a Dr. you have no business telling someone they may have a personality disorder. Like davedd said it's an insult.

If someone asked me for my opinion, I would share my thoughts. I can't imagine how to tell someone they might have a PD if they haven't already considered it or acknowledge the possibility already.

I'll have to say I do not agree with this "insult" mindframe. ADHD is and was very misunderstood as well. The answer wasn't to never talk about it at all or shy away from it, it was to be open about it and speak of it as if it's just no big deal. That many people have it.

The reason I hesitate is not because it's an "insult" but because I think people with PDs are naturally in denial and I'm afraid it could do more damage to mention it than not.

I think if people are asking about whether they have ADHD or not or if they are asking if their symptoms are because of ADHD, I'll mention that those symptoms could be ADHD but they could also be something else like say borderline personal disorder which also has symptoms like.... This way it's not directly saying they have it directly but saying enough they might do some research and discover for themselves that they have it.

daveddd
03-26-16, 12:13 PM
I'll have to say I do not agree with this "insult" mindframe. ADHD is and was very misunderstood as well. The answer wasn't to never talk about it at all or shy away from it, it was to be open about it and speak of it as if it's just no big deal. That many people have it.

The reason I hesitate is not because it's an "insult" but because I think people with PDs are naturally in denial and I'm afraid it could do more damage to mention it than not.

I think if people are asking about whether they have ADHD or not or if they are asking if their symptoms are because of ADHD, I'll mention that those symptoms could be ADHD but they could also be something else like say borderline personal disorder which also has symptoms like.... This way it's not directly saying they have it directly but saying enough they might do some research and discover for themselves that they have it.

could be both

ADHD has a 40-50% personality disorder rate

daveddd
03-26-16, 12:16 PM
brown looks at it as adhd being a foundation to some PDs

executive function deficits being a poor mental immune system , so to speak

Fuzzy12
03-26-16, 12:34 PM
Not an insult? You might have missed the posts on addf then that decry people with pd s as almost not being human.

If you want to raise awareness about pd s and sort of normalise them there is nothing wrong to talk about it and it would be great if more people with pd s spoke about it themselves (though they'd have to be fairly brave and thick skinned). However, I think, that's different from telling people that they have got a pd.

The best might be to nudge them gently towards seeing a professional...and even then the chances that they will receive help are usually fairly slim.

daveddd
03-26-16, 01:15 PM
Not an insult? You might have missed the posts on addf then that decry people with pd s as almost not being human.

If you want to raise awareness about pd s and sort of normalise them there is nothing wrong to talk about it and it would be great if more people with pd s spoke about it themselves (though they'd have to be fairly brave and thick skinned). However, I think, that's different from telling people that they have got a pd.

The best might be to nudge them gently towards seeing a professional...and even then the chances that they will receive help are usually fairly slim.

some of the most grandiose projective threads I've ever seen

some titled specifically to bash a PD

id bet my house most of the people engaged have a PD themselves, if you tend to notice it all the time in others , you probably have one

and nothing is wrong with it, should get help

daveddd
03-26-16, 01:41 PM
i haven't been formally diagnosed

but I'm about as classic an avoidant (extensive interpersonal research, not a symptom list) as you can get

which isn't surprising, its the most common in ADHD


my sister is borderline

acdc01
03-26-16, 01:45 PM
Not an insult? You might have missed the posts on addf then that decry people with pd s as almost not being human.

If you want to raise awareness about pd s and sort of normalise them there is nothing wrong to talk about it and it would be great if more people with pd s spoke about it themselves (though they'd have to be fairly brave and thick skinned). However, I think, that's different from telling people that they have got a pd.

The best might be to nudge them gently towards seeing a professional...and even then the chances that they will receive help are usually fairly slim.

any posts bashing people with pds should be deleted. Although I'll have to say, I know some of us here have been suffered from associations with partners/friends with a pd so it's a fine line I guess of how to accommodate both.

Nudging is what I've decided to do. Goal is just to encourage people to research and figure out for themselves what their issues and needs are. May feel like nosing into others business but we pretty much do that every time we respond. And I personally think nosing isn't a bad thing all the time.

That said, I wouldn't bring up some pds like narcissism at all. Not because I think it's an insult but because I think the likelihood of me hurting is greater than any possibility of helping.

acdc01
03-26-16, 01:47 PM
ADHD has a 40-50% personality disorder rate

I can see how ADHD could make us more susceptible to pds. I don't know about this percentage though - where does it come from? It'd mean almost half of us have pds so about half of us posters here would have a pd. That feels too high to me.

daveddd
03-26-16, 01:50 PM
I can see how ADHD could make us more susceptible to pds. I don't know about this percentage though - where does it come from? It'd mean almost half of us have pds so about half of us posters here would have a pd. That feels too high to me.

thomas brown, russell barkley

id say more than have would likely have a PD

the forum seems to draw more extreme cases

daveddd
03-26-16, 01:52 PM
https://books.google.com/books?id=mtccAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT118&dq=personality+disorders+ADHD&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwieh-aX9d7LAhWM8CYKHaxuCrI4ChDoAQhlMAk#v=onepage&q=personality%20disorders%20ADHD&f=false

acdc01
03-26-16, 01:58 PM
https://books.google.com/books?id=mtccAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT118&dq=personality+disorders+ADHD&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwieh-aX9d7LAhWM8CYKHaxuCrI4ChDoAQhlMAk#v=onepage&q=personality%20disorders%20ADHD&f=false

Interesting thanks. So I'm reading approximately 20-25% of us have a personality disorder (about 1 in 4 of us). Higher than I expected but makes more sense than 40-50%.

All the more reason for us not to shy away from speaking about personality disorders. If so many of us have them, if we really want to help ourselves, we should talk about them.

daveddd
03-26-16, 02:02 PM
Interesting thanks. So I'm reading approximately 20-25% of us have a personality disorder (about 1 in 4 of us). Higher than I expected but makes more sense than 40-50%.

All the more reason for us not to shy away from speaking about personality disorders. If so many of us have them, if we really want to help ourselves, we should talk about them.

i think it says 21% have cluster C and 24% have cluster B

which is about 45%

daveddd
03-26-16, 02:08 PM
also if 45% meet the full criteria, i would guess another large amount, use the defenses Of PDs a lot more as well

i agree we should talk about it

I've tried, it usually doesn't go well

acdc01
03-26-16, 02:08 PM
i think it says 21% have cluster C and 24% have cluster B

which is about 45%

Can't they have comorbid B and C (the pds all run together anyway) so not just a sum of the 2. So maybe around 30% have some sort of pd? Still feels awful high to me but I have no other data contradicting yours.

daveddd
03-26-16, 02:10 PM
Can't they have comorbid B and C (the pds all run together anyway) so not just a sum of the 2. So maybe around 30% have some sort of pd? Still feels awful high to me but I have no other data contradicting yours.

that could be true

thats the low end of I've seen around

can i ask why it seems high to you?

Fuzzy12
03-26-16, 02:16 PM
Interesting thanks. So I'm reading approximately 20-25% of us have a personality disorder (about 1 in 4 of us). Higher than I expected but makes more sense than 40-50%.

All the more reason for us not to shy away from speaking about personality disorders. If so many of us have them, if we really want to help ourselves, we should talk about them.

Talk yes. Accuse no. :)

Diagnose: no way.

(And you'd be surprised how many people believe they are an authority on pd s, bipolar disorder, autism, etc. After reading one book or knowing one person with that disorder).

(By the way don't mean daveddd who is probably the most well read on the subject of pd s and one of the few people who can have a sensible, scientific discussion about pd s without painting them as the devil's spawn).

daveddd
03-26-16, 02:24 PM
it says OCPD is the most common C in ADHD

that may be a good start, since its not thought of as bad generally

BellaVita
03-26-16, 02:37 PM
id bet my house most of the people engaged have a PD themselves, if you tend to notice it all the time in others , you probably have one

and nothing is wrong with it, should get help

I'm going to have to disagree that if a person notices PD-like behavior that it means they have a PD themselves.

Many people grow up with others having PDs, so they become very familiar with the behavior and feel like they need to talk about it. Those same individuals also often spend hours upon hours studying different PDs.

I am one of those people, and no, I do not have a PD.

If a non-ADD partner keeps posting about their spouse having ADHD, I don't think that means that the person likely has ADHD themselves. They might just be desperate for help and need to vent their frustrations.

daveddd
03-26-16, 02:49 PM
I'm going to have to disagree that if a person notices PD-like behavior that it means they have a PD themselves.

Many people grow up with others having PDs, so they become very familiar with the behavior and feel like they need to talk about it. Those same individuals also often spend hours upon hours studying different PDs.

I am one of those people, and no, I do not have a PD.

If a non-ADD partner keeps posting about their spouse having ADHD, I don't think that means that the person likely has ADHD themselves. They might just be desperate for help and need to vent their frustrations.

most

projection is the most common defense in PDs , by a lot

BellaVita
03-26-16, 02:51 PM
most

projection is the most common defense in PDs , by a lot

Ah, I get what you're saying. But I still think it's a good guess at best.

daveddd
03-26-16, 02:54 PM
well most people don't spend hours researching it

and honestly, maybe not you, but a majority of the information I've seen here on PDs isn't always accurate

i believe in the "takes one to know one" adage

BellaVita
03-26-16, 03:15 PM
well most people don't spend hours researching it

and honestly, maybe not you, but a majority of the information I've seen here on PDs isn't always accurate

i believe in the "takes one to know one" adage

Oh, I did not think about that. To me it feels only natural to spend hours researching, I guess I thought maybe everyone did that.

If I ever present inaccurate information, or information that is out-of-date, I would much appreciate being corrected and pointed towards the correct information. :)

acdc01
03-27-16, 09:55 AM
Talk yes. Accuse no. :)

Diagnose: no way.

I think everyone agrees on this. People just don't know how to word things sometimes so then it sounds like an accusation. Like I said, I'll probably just suggest it as one possibility for symptoms among others or phrase it as a question. And if people so "no, that's not me", then I wouldn't mention it again. I think that's when comments sound the most accusatory - when people keep pushing their opinions even when you've told them no, that comment doesn't match me.

acdc01
03-27-16, 10:12 AM
that could be true

thats the low end of I've seen around

can i ask why it seems high to you?

You know, I think it was just a gut reaction to a number that seemed startling high to me. I reacted the same when I read that 80% of us had at least 1 comorbid.

When I look at the handful of people I know with diagnosed and undiagnosed (but would be astounded if they didn't have it) ADHD that I know fairly well in person, I'd say about 50% could very possibly have a pd as well. Very sad. 50% is 1 out of 2 of us or even if it's 30%, it's 1 out of 3 of us. That's just such a huge number.

On this forum, I don't see 1 of 3 of us saying we have a pd as well too. It seems much, much less than that. I guess people could just not be disclosing their pds (which I'm sure is true for some). But I'm guessing (if the statistics are right) most of them don't even known they have it. Their doctors diagnosed their ADHD but missed their pd (I'm sure some just aren't telling their patients they have a pd but I'd guess most are missing it completely). It's just disgusting to me how bad mental healthcare is.

The incredibly high number of us with pds and the incredible number of us who's pds go undiagnosed cause of the incompetency of mental health care makes it all the more important that we speak up in my opinion.

Oh, I don't think I agree with your "it takes one to know one" comment completely. I do believe people project sometimes. But I also think we are just more alert to mental illness in general now after having been diagnosed with ADHD. We pay attention more and notice things that are very different in others that may suggest a mental illness. I guess to me, "it takes one to know one" really means someone with a mental illness may be more attuned to noticing mental illness, even if it's of a different kind to their own.

acdc01
03-27-16, 10:21 AM
it says OCPD is the most common C in ADHD

that may be a good start, since its not thought of as bad generally

I thought my dad had that once. Yeah, I would nudge a person if I thought they had that one. Unfortunately, I'm convinced now my dad has narcissism as well - a pd I don't think has much hope for effective treatment - especially at his age and the way he is. So I just let things go with him and don't say anything. I wouldn't suggest narcissism to anyone but I would with borderline, ocpd, avoidant, and histrionic, and schizoid (well if I knew anything about histrionic). Not sure if I'd mention antisocial either. Its about the probability of my saying something being helpful versus being harmful.

I guess I'm sounding like one of those people that read one paragraph on something and then goes diagnosing people but honestly, I'd rather have someone say a word so I know about it and can research it myself than to have never heard the word at all.

Lunacie
03-27-16, 10:35 AM
You know, I think it was just a gut reaction to a number that seemed startling high to me. I reacted the same when I read that 80% of us had at least 1 comorbid.

When I look at the handful of people I know with diagnosed and undiagnosed (but would be astounded if they didn't have it) ADHD that I know fairly well in person, I'd say about 50% could very possibly have a pd as well. Very sad. 50% is 1 out of 2 of us or even if it's 30%, it's 1 out of 3 of us. That's just such a huge number.

On this forum, I don't see 1 of 3 of us saying we have a pd as well too. It seems much, much less than that. I guess people could just not be disclosing their pds (which I'm sure is true for some). But I'm guessing (if the statistics are right) most of them don't even known they have it. Their doctors diagnosed their ADHD but missed their pd (I'm sure some just aren't telling their patients they have a pd but I'd guess most are missing it completely). It's just disgusting to me how bad mental healthcare is.

The incredibly high number of us with pds and the incredible number of us who's pds go undiagnosed cause of the incompetency of mental health care makes it all the more important that we speak up in my opinion.

Oh, I don't think I agree with your "it takes one to know one" comment completely. I do believe people project sometimes. But I also think we are just more alert to mental illness in general now after having been diagnosed with ADHD. We pay attention more and notice things that are very different in others that may suggest a mental illness. I guess to me, "it takes one to know one" really means someone with a mental illness may be more attuned to noticing mental illness, even if it's of a different kind to their own.

Those comorbid disorders are not always PDs.

Most common comorbid disorders with ADHD are generalized or social Anxiety and Depression.

acdc01
03-27-16, 11:19 AM
Those comorbid disorders are not always PDs.

Most common comorbid disorders with ADHD are generalized or social Anxiety and Depression.

Yeah I know, thanks though. With the 80% it's other comorbids too. With the 30-50% it's just pds. A lot of those people with pds probably have anxiety or depression too.

Lunacie
03-27-16, 06:25 PM
could be both

ADHD has a 40-50% personality disorder rate

i think it says 21% have cluster C and 24% have cluster B

which is about 45%

I'm not sure adding the two together is what that link was saying.

Seems more likely that you add 21% and 24% to get 45%, then divide that by 2 getting 22.5% likelihood of having some PD from one of those clusters.

I think I was also readying that those with PD are more likely to have ADHD as a comorbid. They don't necessarily equal out.

Also, Combined-type ADHD was more likely to have PDs than Inattentive-type was.

daveddd
03-28-16, 09:44 AM
I dont see how or why you would divide it by two

They mainly look for primaries when doing comorbid studies

Most fall in the 50% range

Pds are no longer a seperate axis. So no need to deny them in adhd

Most are likely unaware. And a lot are given atypcle versions of axis one disorderd

Ultra rapid bipolar. Complex ptsd. Linehan says those are just pds

Very understandable with adhd

I dont see people denying depresion


Like i mentioned. I believe most people dont truly understand pds. They just base it off someone they know

daveddd
03-28-16, 09:54 AM
You know, I think it was just a gut reaction to a number that seemed startling high to me. I reacted the same when I read that 80% of us had at least 1 comorbid.

When I look at the handful of people I know with diagnosed and undiagnosed (but would be astounded if they didn't have it) ADHD that I know fairly well in person, I'd say about 50% could very possibly have a pd as well. Very sad. 50% is 1 out of 2 of us or even if it's 30%, it's 1 out of 3 of us. That's just such a huge number.

On this forum, I don't see 1 of 3 of us saying we have a pd as well too. It seems much, much less than that. I guess people could just not be disclosing their pds (which I'm sure is true for some). But I'm guessing (if the statistics are right) most of them don't even known they have it. Their doctors diagnosed their ADHD but missed their pd (I'm sure some just aren't telling their patients they have a pd but I'd guess most are missing it completely). It's just disgusting to me how bad mental healthcare is.

The incredibly high number of us with pds and the incredible number of us who's pds go undiagnosed cause of the incompetency of mental health care makes it all the more important that we speak up in my opinion.

Oh, I don't think I agree with your "it takes one to know one" comment completely. I do believe people project sometimes. But I also think we are just more alert to mental illness in general now after having been diagnosed with ADHD. We pay attention more and notice things that are very different in others that may suggest a mental illness. I guess to me, "it takes one to know one" really means someone with a mental illness may be more attuned to noticing mental illness, even if it's of a different kind to their own.


What is sad about a pd

I guesd i have a hard time understanding how its seems unlikely. Nearly everyone here has a family member with a pd. And adhd and pds share genetics

I know no matter what i say or show it will be criticized or downplayed because pds are "bad people"

I have gut feelings too. I just cant ignore science

Barkley states 24% of people with adhd havr aspd alone. Thats just one pd

Lunacie
03-28-16, 10:12 AM
I dont see how or why you would divide it by two



Because adding them would mean you have two PDs rather than just one.

daveddd
03-28-16, 10:40 AM
Its two different clusters

21% has one. 24% had the other

45% of that sample of adhd had a pd

Its simple

acdc01
03-28-16, 11:03 AM
What is sad about pd

it's sad to me cause we already have so many difficulties with just adhd. And then 80% have another comorbid and somewhere between 20-50% have a pd ?

I'm not trying to hate on people with pds here. I think this thread has actually stayed quite positive. You have to admit any addition mental illness in our lives is yet another difficulty and the way it goes undiagnosed in so many is even worse. That's what I find sad.

Lunacie
03-28-16, 11:17 AM
Its two different clusters

21% has one. 24% had the other

45% of that sample of adhd had a pd

Its simple

That doesn't make sense to me.

You'd add them together if we had a chance of having both.

If we usually only have one as comorbid, you split the difference between them.

acdc01
03-28-16, 11:33 AM
That doesn't make sense to me.

You'd add them together if we had a chance of having both.

If we usually only have one as comorbid, you split the difference between them.

It's not exactly split but it's not directly added either.

Say there are 100 people. 21 of those people would have a cluster C pd and 24 would have cluster B. Some of those 24 people with cluster B though could also be among the 21 that have cluster C - we don't know how many. The odds that many of those have both cluster B and C are quite high as pds run together and often are comorbid. And some invariably will only have cluster B or C.

So at least 24 people (24%)have a pd (everyone has a comorbid) and at most 45 have a pd (no one has both B and C). But the odds are the number of people that have a pd lies somewhere in between (24%-45%, maybe around 30% actual) as not everyone will have both B and C or just B or C.

Any way you see it though, it's a whole ton of us.

daveddd
03-28-16, 12:09 PM
It's not exactly split but it's not directly added either.

Say there are 100 people. 21 of those people would have a cluster C pd and 24 would have cluster B. Some of those 24 people with cluster B though could also be among the 21 that have cluster C - we don't know how many. The odds that many of those have both cluster B and C are quite high as pds run together and often are comorbid. And some invariably will only have cluster B or C.

So at least 24 people (24%)have a pd (everyone has a comorbid) and at most 45 have a pd (no one has both B and C). But the odds are the number of people that have a pd lies somewhere in between (24%-45%, maybe around 30% actual) as not everyone will have both B and C or just B or C.

Any way you see it though, it's a whole ton of us.

while comorbids are high

normally in studies like that they look for a primary

i don't see it stated though

I've seen studies as high as 80% of people with ADHD meet the criteria for a PD

thats important to remember , linehan always states it like that

someone who meets the criteria for, as opposed someone who has

daveddd
03-28-16, 12:13 PM
the whole study would be nice

all i can find is the abstract


Axis I and II comorbidity in adults with ADHD.
Miller TW1, Nigg JT, Faraone SV.
Author information
Abstract
Ongoing debate over the validity of the attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) construct in adulthood is fueled in part by uncertainty regarding implications of potentially extensive yet incompletely described comorbid Axis I and II psychopathology. Three hundred sixty-three adults ages 18 to 37 completed semistructured clinical interviews; informants were also interviewed, and best estimate diagnoses were obtained. Results were as follows: First, ADHD combined type (ADHD-C) had an excess of externalizing and internalizing Axis I disorders, suggesting a gradient-of-severity relationship between it and ADHD inattentive type (ADHD-I). Second, ADHD-C and ADHD-I did not differ in frequency of Axis II disorders. Third, however, ADHD overall was associated with increased rates of Axis II disorders, compared with rates in non-ADHD control participants, including both Cluster B (primarily borderline personality disorder) and Cluster C disorders. Fourth, ADHD incrementally accounted for clinician-rated global assessment of functioning scores above and beyond comorbid conditions or symptoms on either Axis I or Axis II. Results further inform nosology of ADHD in adults.

acdc01
03-28-16, 12:17 PM
while comorbids are high

normally in studies like that they look for a primary

i don't see it stated though

I've seen studies as high as 80% of people with ADHD meet the criteria for a PD

thats important to remember , linehan always states it like that

someone who meets the criteria for, as opposed someone who has


80% with pd sounds way too high and this time I'm not just reacting out of shock. Regardless of which studies are right and how they calculate it, it seems like there are definitely a huge number of us with pds.

daveddd
03-28-16, 12:19 PM
80% with pd sounds way too high and this time I'm not just reacting out of shock. Regardless of which studies are right and how they calculate it, it seems like there are definitely a huge number of us with pds.

studies vary

its usually somewhere in the middle

i think the 80% was actually ADHD in substance abuse treatment

daveddd
03-28-16, 12:22 PM
80% with pd sounds way too high and this time I'm not just reacting out of shock. Regardless of which studies are right and how they calculate it, it seems like there are definitely a huge number of us with pds.

there is

reading models like millons or linehans biosocial learning theory of PDs it makes a ton of sense why

most people are used to the extreme sociopath or maybe they were abused so thats imprinted

but thats really a minority

cluster cs are generally not violent at all, but emotionally constricted

BellaVita
03-28-16, 01:14 PM
I dont see how or why you would divide it by two

They mainly look for primaries when doing comorbid studies

Most fall in the 50% range

Pds are no longer a seperate axis. So no need to deny them in adhd

Most are likely unaware. And a lot are given atypcle versions of axis one disorderd

Ultra rapid bipolar. Complex ptsd. Linehan says those are just pds

Very understandable with adhd

I dont see people denying depresion


Like i mentioned. I believe most people dont truly understand pds. They just base it off someone they know

So C-PTSD is another PD? I thought it was another form of PTSD? That PTSD is a term for a single traumatic event causing PTSD symptoms, but that C-PTSD often results from chronic exposure to abuse. (Ex: physical and verbal abuse that happens to the person for 20 years)

I thought the C-type is the one that develops after years of abuse, so that I have PTSD-reactions to many different things instead of coming from just one main event? That it creates a "complex" case of PTSD? Another reason I don't necessarily think it's a PD, is because it has gotten somewhat better with time. I still have some flashbacks and nightmares, but it isn't nearly as bad as the first year after the escape from the abuse. My hypervigilant state isn't nearly as bad as it was during the first year, although it is still there at a low-level every day. (higher if I have a flashback though)

But I'm very happy with the progress I've made. I'm so much more confident now, and better experiencing the world.

I know I have PTSD, and I often say it is the C-PTSD type, but I do not think that that is a PD.

But maybe definitions will change with time, and it will be classified as one in the future.

daveddd
03-28-16, 01:53 PM
Pds are generslly an interaction of neurologicsl disposition and complex life events

And are now considered the same as axis onr

Linehan stated complex ptsd is a name given to pds and isnt helpful

In fact i think its in the video i posted in borderline overlap with adhd thread

Her hallmarks are the hypervigilant and her absolute is hearing voices under in extreme anxiety

Is complex ptsd in the dsm. I dont know

BellaVita
03-28-16, 02:11 PM
No it's not in the DSM, I don't think. I guess, I just always assumed I had that type.

However (and I have deeply analyzed this) I do not do things such as splitting/idealizing/devaluing, I do not have an unstable sense of self, I do not have anger outbursts at people (I do have meltdowns, but that usually involves me crying/sometimes screaming, rocking back and forth, maybe hitting the bed or pillow as stimming - often in a repetitive way - unable to speak words, and it is usually in response to things such as a change in plan or sensory overload, sometimes emotional overload, or a combination of all),...but I DO experience some paranoia, hypervigilant state, depression that comes and goes, flashbacks, and nightmares.

I do not seem to fit the BPD criteria, but maybe there is another PD I haven't looked in to. Or maybe one can have a form of PTSD without fitting the diagnostic criteria for a PD.

daveddd
03-28-16, 02:15 PM
Maybe its all just a jumbled mess of mental suffering

BellaVita
03-28-16, 02:54 PM
I wonder if there is another term for PTSD symptoms caused by trauma over an extended period of time, that is actually in the DSM.

Is there another form of PTSD, that is recognized, that has to do with more than one event of trauma? Extended trauma? That results in the same symptoms as the "usual" PTSD but it is flashbacks etc. from multiple events?

Perhaps I should just stick with the term PTSD, since that is what I mostly relate to. And then just describe that I've had several traumas.

Hope I'm making sense.

daveddd
03-28-16, 03:30 PM
You can call it whatever makes u comfortable

BellaVita
03-28-16, 03:37 PM
You can call it whatever makes u comfortable

It's not about what makes me comfortable, but about what is accurate.

Based on some recent reading, it seems that many reject the C-PTSD label. (It was rejected by the DSM 3 times I think)

I think I have PTSD, actually I know I do, but just not the single-event type of PTSD. Which, is still PTSD. (From what I'm learning) I guess when I seek treatment one day, I will explain how it was several traumas over a period of years. I guess that will help with determining what type of treatment option is best for me.

I'm trying to explore this so that I can be closer to the truth.

daveddd
03-28-16, 03:46 PM
the only thing i know about it is what linehan mentioned about it

reading actual interpersonal issues, styles on PDs is very interesting

its far more than a checklist

but I DO experience some paranoia, hypervigilant state, depression that comes and goes, flashbacks, and nightmares.

I do not seem to fit the BPD criteria, but maybe there is another PD I haven't looked in to


millons avoidant is similar to this

IDK

what have you actually been diagnosed with

BellaVita
03-28-16, 03:59 PM
the only thing i know about it is what linehan mentioned about it

reading actual interpersonal issues, styles on PDs is very interesting

its far more than a checklist

but I DO experience some paranoia, hypervigilant state, depression that comes and goes, flashbacks, and nightmares.

I do not seem to fit the BPD criteria, but maybe there is another PD I haven't looked in to


millons avoidant is similar to this

IDK

what have you actually been diagnosed with

I've been diagnosed with: ADHD, anxiety, chronic low-grade depression, OCD, Bipolar-NOS, possible type 2 Bipolar("soft" Bipolar as my pdoc called it). (I've also been placed on numerous medications for sleep issues)

What I've self-diagnosed as: Autistic (I'm 100% sure on this one)
PTSD

Also, I'm fairly certain at this point I'm not Bipolar, haven't had anything manic-related since I quit all medications, also thinking it was autism all along that was missed. In autistic females it is often the case where they are misdiagnosed with a form of bipolar instead of autism. And I had always questioned the bipolar exploration, it never seemed to make sense or "fit" me fully, but with autism there is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

I also think my psychiatrist might've suspected autism at one point, but my mom was very determined to tell him over and over that I had (her words) "a perfectly happy, healthy, normal childhood" and that I reached my developmental milestones. (This was the same visit she shushed me, and wouldn't let me explain to him how I didn't talk to anyone except her for the first several years of my life, everyone thought I couldn't talk, and how I lined up my toys every day - I didn't even think I had autism back then, I just knew that those things were not normal)

daveddd
03-28-16, 04:04 PM
also linehan inhibited borderline (which is avoidant/schizoid /paranoid)


these are just states and schemas that are nobodies fault and thought to be just like axis 1 disorders

but the right reading can explain so much instead of a pile of axis ones , its more like a complete phenotype of suffering

daveddd
03-28-16, 04:07 PM
I've been diagnosed with: ADHD, anxiety, chronic low-grade depression, OCD, Bipolar-NOS, possible type 2 Bipolar("soft" Bipolar as my pdoc called it). (I've also been placed on numerous medications for sleep issues)

What I've self-diagnosed as: Autistic (I'm 100% sure on this one)
PTSD

Also, I'm fairly certain at this point I'm not Bipolar, haven't had anything manic-related since I quit all medications, also thinking it was autism all along that was missed. In autistic females it is often the case where they are misdiagnosed with a form of bipolar instead of autism. And I had always questioned the bipolar exploration, it never seemed to make sense or "fit" me fully, but with autism there is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

I also think my psychiatrist might've suspected autism at one point, but my mom was very determined to tell him over and over that I had (her words) "a perfectly happy, healthy, normal childhood" and that I reached my developmental milestones. (This was the same visit she shushed me, and wouldn't let me explain to him how I didn't talk to anyone except her for the first several years of my life, everyone thought I couldn't talk, and how I lined up my toys every day - I didn't even think I had autism back then, I just knew that those things were not normal)


thats a lot

its just a lot of times with that amount of illness, we tend to use unhealthy coping mechanisms


i have no idea if you have a PD

i just know they aren't what a lot of people think and more common with a lot of disorders

Fortune
03-28-16, 04:10 PM
Just want to point out that c-PTSD being BPD is by no means a universal interpretation.

Also that it's reaching a bit to pick any given study's conclusions as to how many people with ADHD have PDs, since there's so much variability. Any percentage picked is at best a guess.

I've known about the higher occurrence of PDs in ADHD for a long time (since 2011) but I've never felt I had a firm idea of just how high the occurrence is.

Also, comorbidity in PDs is pretty common - someone who has one might have one or two more, or traits from one or two more.

daveddd
03-28-16, 04:17 PM
yea, no one said it was universal

it was stated by a world renowned expert of PDs, who knows much more about it than anyone here

still doesn't make it true, like half the stuff barkley says


i wouldn't call joel nigg and trhomas brown any given study, unless i didn't like the results maybe

we can say that about all mental studies though right

BellaVita
03-28-16, 04:21 PM
thats a lot

its just a lot of times with that amount of illness, we tend to use unhealthy coping mechanisms


i have no idea if you have a PD

i just know they aren't what a lot of people think and more common with a lot of disorders

I think my most unhealthy coping mechanism, is internalization of anger(mixed with anxiety), because I do not know how to express it or what it means to express anger, then I feel physical symptoms and get sick. (I'd also like to add, that I'm not one to anger frequently, I tend to be more the anxious type)

I think I've found some other rather healthy coping mechanisms though, like coming to these forums, watching videos of people who went through similar abuse as me, or getting things off my chest to my fiancť, exercise (this was my main way of dealing with negative emotions even as a child), playing with my dog, and singing. Those things have helped me more than anything. I think it is the reason I'm making progress with healing, and my overall confidence has gone up and I'm having more happy moments than I ever have in my entire life.

daveddd
03-28-16, 04:34 PM
I think my most unhealthy coping mechanism, is internalization of anger(mixed with anxiety), because I do not know how to express it or what it means to express anger, then I feel physical symptoms and get sick.

I think I've found some other rather healthy coping mechanisms though, like coming to these forums, watching videos of people who went through similar abuse as me, or getting things off my chest to my fiancť, exercise (this was my main way of dealing with negative emotions even as a child), playing with my dog, and singing. Those things have helped me more than anything. I think it is the reason I'm making progress with healing, and my overall confidence has gone up and I'm having more happy moments than I ever have in my entire life.

Internalizing anger is my issue too. The bain of my personal issues according to million. But dont push me or that anger is dangerous


The rest of what you said is what matters though

I dont buy these are permanent viruses. We can heal

All i try to do id present information. I use only experts I have a gift i can reAd and absorb a college text in a half hour


It seems to be taken the wrong way a lot. This is an information resource center. I wish people would present info more than just saying im wrong

BellaVita
03-28-16, 04:38 PM
I admire you and I like it when you present information, it is really helpful.

Thanks for all of the help you put into this community. :) :grouphug:

Lunacie
03-28-16, 04:57 PM
I've been diagnosed with: ADHD, anxiety, chronic low-grade depression, OCD, Bipolar-NOS, possible type 2 Bipolar("soft" Bipolar as my pdoc called it). (I've also been placed on numerous medications for sleep issues)

What I've self-diagnosed as: Autistic (I'm 100% sure on this one)
PTSD

Also, I'm fairly certain at this point I'm not Bipolar, haven't had anything manic-related since I quit all medications, also thinking it was autism all along that was missed. In autistic females it is often the case where they are misdiagnosed with a form of bipolar instead of autism. And I had always questioned the bipolar exploration, it never seemed to make sense or "fit" me fully, but with autism there is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

I also think my psychiatrist might've suspected autism at one point, but my mom was very determined to tell him over and over that I had (her words) "a perfectly happy, healthy, normal childhood" and that I reached my developmental milestones. (This was the same visit she shushed me, and wouldn't let me explain to him how I didn't talk to anyone except her for the first several years of my life, everyone thought I couldn't talk, and how I lined up my toys every day - I didn't even think I had autism back then, I just knew that those things were not normal)

I agree. My granddaughter's first therapist was certain that she had bipolar.

He presented her symptoms to his boss who has a daughter with autism, and she told him all the symptoms between the two girls matched.

Same thing when I finally saw a therapist, she acknowledged the anxiety and depression, but was sure I had bipolar, and put it in her notes.

So when I saw the psychiatrist, that's what he was going on. I said I didn't agree, no bipolar dx in my family, lots of ADHD and autism.

BellaVita
03-28-16, 05:06 PM
I agree. My granddaughter's first therapist was certain that she had bipolar.

He presented her symptoms to his boss who has a daughter with autism, and she told him all the symptoms between the two girls matched.

Same thing when I finally saw a therapist, she acknowledged the anxiety and depression, but was sure I had bipolar, and put it in her notes.

So when I saw the psychiatrist, that's what he was going on. I said I didn't agree, no bipolar dx in my family, lots of ADHD and autism.

Thanks for sharing all of that, it's sad that autism in females isn't noticed as much.

When I look at my family on my mom's side, I can see some autistic-traits. Although I never really got to know anyone well. One of my little cousins reminds me of me when I was little, she doesn't speak. (At least, she didn't whenever I saw her)

I wish I knew what was on my dad's side, but he was adopted.

Fortune
03-28-16, 05:38 PM
yea, no one said it was universal

it was stated by a world renowned expert of PDs, who knows much more about it than anyone here

still doesn't make it true, like half the stuff barkley says

Marsha Linehan is certainly entitled to her opinion, but I've seen enough that disagrees that I am pretty much in the "Disagrees" camp.

i wouldn't call joel nigg and trhomas brown any given study, unless i didn't like the results maybe

we can say that about all mental studies though right

Nigg or Brown or any researcher would probably tell you not to derive too much from their studies without further studies to confirm their findings.

What is known is that PDs have a higher occurrence rate among people with ADHD than among neurotypicals. What isn't known is the precise rate. There's too much variation in the available studies, since it was pointed out they range from 30% to 80%.

Fortune
03-28-16, 05:44 PM
It seems to be taken the wrong way a lot. This is an information resource center. I wish people would present info more than just saying im wrong

I'm not saying you're wrong. I am saying that a) there are more perspectives than Linehan's on what c-PTSD is or may be and that b) existing research doesn't actually provide a firm occurrence rate for PDs in people with ADHD.

Fortune
03-28-16, 05:59 PM
Also I'll need to track it down again but I've read research that indicates labeling people with PDs may actually make it harder for them to recover.

Plus it's not really appropriate to approach this topic (comorbidity with ADHD) without acknowledging and understanding the severe stigma that surrounds PD diagnoses, esp. cluster B diagnoses. You have would-be experts literally writing books about how people with BPD are literally evil (The Science of Evil by Simon Baron-Cohen).

The removal of the axis 2 category in the DSM 5 does not mean that the stigma has been mitigated or removed as well, or that attitudes about PDs have changed in any appreciable way.

acdc01
03-28-16, 06:03 PM
It seems to be taken the wrong way a lot. This is an information resource center. I wish people would present info more than just saying im wrong

Are you referring to what I said about the 80% feeling high to me or Fortune pointing out that studies might not be right?

I agree with Fortune's response if she's the one you were referring to - studies ranging from 30%-80%, who wouldn't question the exact numbers?

If it's me, I'm sorry but I'm not an encyclopedia of knowledge the way you are. I can't absorb medical articles the way you can. I often can't read them cause they are too boring. So it actually kind of annoys me that you feel like people are attacking you if they tell you the number you quoted in a study doesn't feel right to them without bringing another study result to the table - not all of us know as much as you. It's not a personal attack on you when we do this you know. I very much appreciate the information you bring. And I'm not trying to discredit you or anything. I don't see anything wrong with sharing my feelings on a studies results. We're just having a conversation here and I'm just sharing how I feel. Studies can be wrong sometimes you know.

Perhaps I've misunderstood you and am being melodramatic over nothing. Overall though, I get a defensive feeling from you. Like you're expecting people to bash pds and bash the info your presenting and no one is actually doing any of that on this thread.

acdc01
03-28-16, 06:11 PM
Also I'll need to track it down again but I've read research that indicates labeling people with PDs may actually make it harder for them to recover..

Is this true for all pds? What sucks is that doctors are so miserably poor sometimes that if you don't self-diagnose, you can't even get any help on the area at all.

Sorry for all you went through Bellavita with your autism and no doctor ever diagnosing you correctly.

Fortune
03-28-16, 06:13 PM
Is this true for all pds? What sucks is that doctors are so miserably poor sometimes that if you don't self-diagnose, you can't even get any help on the area at all.

Sorry for all you went through Bellavita with your autism and no doctor ever diagnosing you correctly.

The context of which I am aware is specifically BPD, so I am not positive it applies to other PDs.

However, it seems to me that telling someone they have an incurable disorder probably gives them a certain mindset about it. I know BPD is treatable, but is also widely considered to be treatment resistant.

Lunacie
03-28-16, 06:19 PM
Thanks for sharing all of that, it's sad that autism in females isn't noticed as much.

When I look at my family on my mom's side, I can see some autistic-traits. Although I never really got to know anyone well. One of my little cousins reminds me of me when I was little, she doesn't speak. (At least, she didn't whenever I saw her)

I wish I knew what was on my dad's side, but he was adopted.

I was surprised to read that you were able to talk to your mother. My g-daughter didn't really talk until she was 4, it sounded like language, but we didn't understand it.

I suppose we should return to the actual topic now, eh? ;)

daveddd
03-28-16, 06:38 PM
Are you referring to what I said about the 80% feeling high to me or Fortune pointing out that studies might not be right?

I agree with Fortune's response if she's the one you were referring to - studies ranging from 30%-80%, who wouldn't question the exact numbers?

If it's me, I'm sorry but I'm not an encyclopedia of knowledge the way you are. I can't absorb medical articles the way you can. I often can't read them cause they are too boring. So it actually kind of annoys me that you feel like people are attacking you if they tell you the number you quoted in a study doesn't feel right to them without bringing another study result to the table - not all of us know as much as you. It's not a personal attack on you when we do this you know. I very much appreciate the information you bring. And I'm not trying to discredit you or anything. I don't see anything wrong with sharing my feelings on a studies results. We're just having a conversation here and I'm just sharing how I feel. Studies can be wrong sometimes you know.

Perhaps I've misunderstood you and am being melodramatic over nothing. Overall though, I get a defensive feeling from you. Like you're expecting people to bash pds and bash the info your presenting and no one is actually doing any of that on this thread.

No i wasnt talking about you or really anyone inparticular

I just like to post random info. And i get the feeling sometimes that me saying something is accusing

I may just be being dramatic. And misreading peoples responses im prone to tgat


I feel like if im stating something that its my opinion the way people respond


I could be wrong

daveddd
03-28-16, 06:39 PM
Marsha Linehan is certainly entitled to her opinion, but I've seen enough that disagrees that I am pretty much in the "Disagrees" camp.



Nigg or Brown or any researcher would probably tell you not to derive too much from their studies without further studies to confirm their findings.

What is known is that PDs have a higher occurrence rate among people with ADHD than among neurotypicals. What isn't known is the precise rate. There's too much variation in the available studies, since it was pointed out they range from 30% to 80%.

Im very interestec in c ptsd. Do you have some good info on it?

daveddd
03-28-16, 06:41 PM
Also I'll need to track it down again but I've read research that indicates labeling people with PDs may actually make it harder for them to recover.

Plus it's not really appropriate to approach this topic (comorbidity with ADHD) without acknowledging and understanding the severe stigma that surrounds PD diagnoses, esp. cluster B diagnoses. You have would-be experts literally writing books about how people with BPD are literally evil (The Science of Evil by Simon Baron-Cohen).

The removal of the axis 2 category in the DSM 5 does not mean that the stigma has been mitigated or removed as well, or that attitudes about PDs have changed in any appreciable way.

Im aware of the stigma. For sure

Especilly the hack cohen

Fortune
03-28-16, 06:42 PM
Im very interestec in c ptsd. Do you have some good info on it?

I'll have to dig around a bit because I am like 10,000% less diligent about saving links/references than you are, but yeah I'll get something posted soon.

BellaVita
03-28-16, 06:42 PM
I was surprised to read that you were able to talk to your mother. My g-daughter didn't really talk until she was 4, it sounded like language, but we didn't understand it.

I suppose we should return to the actual topic now, eh? ;)

My mom SAID I talked to her, I don't actually remember really. I find it odd that I talked to her and no one else, but that is what I've been told by her. I know for sure I didn't speak to others though, due to their surprise when they found out I could talk.

"She can talk!?!??" was often the response that I got from others, mainly what others would tell my mom when they discovered I could, when I eventually began talking. And even then, I only spoke to a select few people but didn't speak most of the other time to other people. (I remember that part)

I also remember, that when I DID talk, it was often A LOT. Usually a monologue about my favorite topic, I would talk for hours on end without letting someone else get a word in. (I mean that literally, I would talk about the same thing for about 3-7 hours straight) I only did this with a few people, and with everyone else I was silent.

Either way, I don't think every autistic person is the same.

Fortune
03-28-16, 06:46 PM
Im very interestec in c ptsd. Do you have some good info on it?

I pulled this up, which I believe is a full paper:

http://www.ejpt.net/index.php/ejpt/article/view/25097

It's not the one I read that put me more on the "BPD and c-PTSD are different" bandwagon, mostly because that was an article like you'd find on psychcentral or similar.

daveddd
03-28-16, 06:58 PM
Thanks ill read it the second i get to my home computet

Sorry if i came off like i cared about the exact accuracy of studies

I was more thinkin it should be looked into not downplayed

Fuzzy12
03-28-16, 07:04 PM
It seems like the lower limit is 30%, which is still pretty high. It means every third among us has a pd.

I can imagine though how having difficulties with emotional regulation predisposes you or makes you more vulnerable to something like bpd (maybe the others too but I don't know much about them).

daveddd
03-28-16, 07:31 PM
It seems like the lower limit is 30%, which is still pretty high. It means every third among us has a pd.

I can imagine though how having difficulties with emotional regulation predisposes you or makes you more vulnerable to something like bpd (maybe the others too but I don't know much about them).

All the bs and cs at least

Fortune
03-28-16, 07:40 PM
Thanks ill read it the second i get to my home computet

Sorry if i came off like i cared about the exact accuracy of studies

I was more thinkin it should be looked into not downplayed

It definitely should be looked into, as well as the ways that clients with PDs are often failed by therapists and psychiatrists.

Fortune
03-28-16, 07:41 PM
It seems like the lower limit is 30%, which is still pretty high. It means every third among us has a pd.

I can imagine though how having difficulties with emotional regulation predisposes you or makes you more vulnerable to something like bpd (maybe the others too but I don't know much about them).

In the ICD I think they call BPD "emotional dysregulation disorder."

namazu
03-28-16, 08:12 PM
In the ICD I think they call BPD "emotional dysregulation disorder."
In the current edition (ICD-10), it appears to fall within "F60.3 Emotionally unstable personality disorder (http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2016/en#/F60.3)", but I'm not sure if that's new with this edition, or how it's evolved over time.

Personally, I think the label you used sounds less instantly stigmatizing...

The stigma is still formidable (and among clinicians, where one might especially hope for understanding, no less -- unlike other disorders, where the stigma may be less prevalent among clinicians and more so among laypeople).

However, there are a couple of things that I think have begun to help chip away at it --
1) the apparent effectiveness of DBT in helping at least some people with BPD (and other) diagnoses, and
2) the increasing evidence that "personality disorders" aren't inherently categorically distinct from other types of psych disorders (in that there appear to be biological underpinnings and strong associations with other disorders), which was a part of what led to the collapse of the Axis I - Axis II separation in DSM-5.

Alas, change (especially where stigma is involved) is slow, and there are still a lot of questions about how best to help people.

aeon
03-28-16, 08:12 PM
I wonder if there is another term for PTSD symptoms caused by trauma over an extended period of time, that is actually in the DSM.

Is there another form of PTSD, that is recognized, that has to do with more than one event of trauma? Extended trauma? That results in the same symptoms as the "usual" PTSD but it is flashbacks etc. from multiple events?

Perhaps I should just stick with the term PTSD, since that is what I mostly relate to. And then just describe that I've had several traumas.

Hope I'm making sense.

Dr. Bessel van der Kolk was working to have ďDevelopmental Trauma DisorderĒ included in the DSM-5...it was not included. Google for the PDF.


Cheers,
Ian

aeon
03-28-16, 08:22 PM
Linehan stated complex ptsd is a name given to pds and isnt helpful

I very much respect Marsha Linehan, but I think and feel C-PTSD can exist outside of the presence of a PD, and often does.

I think a trauma-informed approach is absolutely necessary here. In fact, letís go back to the source and reread Judith L. Hermanís Trauma and Recovery. OK, Iíll be a cheerleader for a second and say that book not just changed my life, but saved it.

From Wikipedia...

Judith Herman is best known for her distinctive contributions to the understanding of trauma and its victims, as set out in her second book, the now classic study of the diagnostic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic) category post-traumatic stress disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder) (PTSD), Trauma and Recovery.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-1">[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Lewis_Herman#cite_note-1)</sup> There she distinguishes between single-incident traumas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma) - one-off events - which she termed Type I traumas, and complex or repeated traumas (Type II).<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-2">[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Lewis_Herman#cite_note-2)</sup> Type I trauma, according to the United States Veterans Administration's Center for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, "accurately describes the symptoms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symptom) that result when a person experiences a short-lived psychological trauma.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-3">[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Lewis_Herman#cite_note-3)</sup> Type II - the concept of complex post-traumatic stress disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-traumatic_stress_disorder) (CPTSD) - includes "the syndrome that follows upon prolonged, repeated trauma."<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-4">[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Lewis_Herman#cite_note-4)</sup> Although not accepted by DSM-IV as a separate diagnostic category, the notion of complex traumas has been found useful in clinical practice.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-5">[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Lewis_Herman#cite_note-5)</sup>


Cheers,
Ian
<sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"></sup>

mctavish23
03-28-16, 08:42 PM
Only my sister :D


U R Welcome :cool:

daveddd
03-28-16, 09:17 PM
I very much respect Marsha Linehan, but I think and feel C-PTSD can exist outside of the presence of a PD, and often does.

I think a trauma-informed approach is absolutely necessary here. In fact, letís go back to the source and reread Judith L. Hermanís Trauma and Recovery. OK, Iíll be a cheerleader for a second and say that book not just changed my life, but saved it.

From Wikipedia...




Cheers,
Ian
<sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"></sup>

sounds reasonable

I'm not sure who is right

what linehan could have been referring too is that the result of repeated trauma can lead someone to meet the criteria for BPD

or she could be completely wrong, i personally think a lot of experts are wrong about things (like i mentioned barkley)

i have a hard dismissing her completely because of her work

one thing though she had the view" someone who meets the criteria" for Bpd

as opposed to a specific thing someone has, and her model, therapy sessions , and patient descriptions are far different from the popular view of BPD



just my thoughts

Fortune
03-28-16, 09:17 PM
In the current edition (ICD-10), it appears to fall within "F60.3 Emotionally unstable personality disorder (http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2016/en#/F60.3)", but I'm not sure if that's new with this edition, or how it's evolved over time.

Personally, I think the label you used sounds less instantly stigmatizing...

The stigma is still formidable (and among clinicians, where one might especially hope for understanding, no less -- unlike other disorders, where the stigma may be less prevalent among clinicians and more so among laypeople).

However, there are a couple of things that I think have begun to help chip away at it --
1) the apparent effectiveness of DBT in helping at least some people with BPD (and other) diagnoses, and
2) the increasing evidence that "personality disorders" aren't inherently categorically distinct from other types of psych disorders (in that there appear to be biological underpinnings and strong associations with other disorders), which was a part of what led to the collapse of the Axis I - Axis II separation in DSM-5.

Alas, change (especially where stigma is involved) is slow, and there are still a lot of questions about how best to help people.

I'm glad they got rid of that distinction. I was saying a few years ago that it didn't seem valid.

And I was misremembering. EDD is an alternative name that's been floating around but I don't think anyone officially uses it.

daveddd
03-28-16, 09:23 PM
I pulled this up, which I believe is a full paper:

http://www.ejpt.net/index.php/ejpt/article/view/25097

It's not the one I read that put me more on the "BPD and c-PTSD are different" bandwagon, mostly because that was an article like you'd find on psychcentral or similar.

interesting thanks

daveddd
03-28-16, 09:23 PM
I'm glad they got rid of that distinction. I was saying a few years ago that it didn't seem valid.

And I was misremembering. EDD is an alternative name that's been floating around but I don't think anyone officially uses it.

million pushed for it for years (EDD)

Fortune
03-28-16, 09:24 PM
million pushed for it for years (EDD)

True! I didn't realize he pushed for it, but cool.

Fuzzy12
03-29-16, 02:06 AM
All the bs and cs at least

What's bs and cs?

BellaVita
03-29-16, 02:10 AM
What's bs and cs?

I believe he's talking about Cluster Bs and Cluster Cs.

acdc01
03-29-16, 04:29 AM
So people are more likely to do worse if they know they have a pd than if they don't know it (no label)? Even if they have a clueless doctor?

I can see that with narcissist pd. But I can't wrap my thoughts around that concept for any other pd. It's like how can you fix a problem you don't even understand or know is there to begin with.

Fuzzy12
03-29-16, 07:04 AM
So people are more likely to do worse if they know they have a pd than if they don't know it (no label)? Even if they have a clueless doctor?

I can see that with narcissist pd. But I can't wrap my thoughts around that concept for any other pd. It's like how can you fix a problem you don't even understand or know is there to begin with.

I think the stigma attached to having a pd and the general reputation of pd s being very hard to treat might make someone feel more hopeless, more isolated and more misunderstood.

It probably depends a lot on having a good psychiatrist or therapist lbut those are very hard to find especially if you need someone who is very experienced with pd s and not biased against them.

For the life of me I honestly can't imagine the nhs successfully treating pd (at least not the clowns I see).

I do think it's worth a shot..I mean trying to get help for it...but I remember when I was considering bpd the thought that this might be my problem made me feel absolutely hopeless. The adhd diagnosis and even to an extent being diagnosed with BP gave me hope...but not this one. I even hesitated calling my psychiatrist for help when i desperately needed it because I was terrified I might be diagnosed with a pd and that this would be held against me for the rest of my life.

Fortune
03-29-16, 08:02 AM
So people are more likely to do worse if they know they have a pd than if they don't know it (no label)? Even if they have a clueless doctor?

I can see that with narcissist pd. But I can't wrap my thoughts around that concept for any other pd. It's like how can you fix a problem you don't even understand or know is there to begin with.

I wouldn't put much into that until I can find a reference for it. It was something I came across a couple of years ago and haven't been able to find again.

Fortune
03-29-16, 08:05 AM
I do think it's worth a shot..I mean trying to get help for it...but I remember when I was considering bpd the thought that this might be my problem made me feel absolutely hopeless. The adhd diagnosis and even to an extent being diagnosed with BP gave me hope...but not this one. I even hesitated calling my psychiatrist for help when i desperately needed it because I was terrified I might be diagnosed with a pd and that this would be held against me for the rest of my life.

As an example, one of my therapists told me that whenever someone with BPD attempts suicide, they're doing it to manipulate and for attention. When I asked her about the relatively high successful suicide rate among people with BPD, she said "They went too far." There was no room in her worldview for "People with BPD might be genuinely suicidal."

daveddd
03-29-16, 09:41 AM
I dont know where but i can recall seeing something about what fortune said about bpd being worse after dx

Also i remember seeing suicide rates increase aftr cbt for bpd

acdc01
03-29-16, 03:59 PM
I remembering once that dbt had a success rate of 50% with bpd. Is that not right? I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. My faith in health systems is quite low. I do wonder about how helpful support groups and groups in general are though. Sounds like group therapy is giving ginnybean's mom at least some support.

BellaVita
03-29-16, 04:42 PM
As an example, one of my therapists told me that whenever someone with BPD attempts suicide, they're doing it to manipulate and for attention. When I asked her about the relatively high successful suicide rate among people with BPD, she said "They went too far." There was no room in her worldview for "People with BPD might be genuinely suicidal."

Oh my goodness, that's crazy! She actually said that??

That's quite a dangerous way of thinking. Suicide should always be taken 100% seriously.

I think even those that use it to "manipulate" are in a very very dark place, like to even say "I'm going to kill myself" is such a far jump. Like, they still need intense help because those thoughts had to come from somewhere.

daveddd
03-29-16, 05:37 PM
I remembering once that dbt had a success rate of 50% with bpd. Is that not right? I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. My faith in health systems is quite low. I do wonder about how helpful support groups and groups in general are though. Sounds like group therapy is giving ginnybean's mom at least some support.

i don't know

it has success though

CBT does not

daveddd
03-29-16, 05:46 PM
the newest trend in BPD therapy (a third wave like DBT) is mentilazition based therapy

putting words , imagery to and bringing primal emotions to cognition

think alexthymia?

Fortune
03-29-16, 06:32 PM
Oh my goodness, that's crazy! She actually said that??

That's quite a dangerous way of thinking. Suicide should always be taken 100% seriously.

I think even those that use it to "manipulate" are in a very very dark place, like to even say "I'm going to kill myself" is such a far jump. Like, they still need intense help because those thoughts had to come from somewhere.

Yeah, she totally said that. And I agree it's dangerous.

Regarding those who use it to manipulate, my mother's ex husband (not my biological father) who is a diagnosed psychopath tried to use suicide threats to get my mother to go back to him. People were willing to help him when he made those threats until it became clear that he was basically doing it to get what he wanted. I'm not sure he was in any darker place than he usually is.

the newest trend in BPD therapy (a third wave like DBT) is mentilazition based therapy

putting words , imagery to and bringing primal emotions to cognition

think alexthymia?

Yes, I've heard of this, but forgot the name. I've heard good things about it.

daveddd
03-29-16, 06:38 PM
Yeah, she totally said that. And I agree it's dangerous.

Regarding those who use it to manipulate, my mother's ex husband (not my biological father) who is a diagnosed psychopath tried to use suicide threats to get my mother to go back to him. People were willing to help him when he made those threats until it became clear that he was basically doing it to get what he wanted. I'm not sure he was in any darker place than he usually is.



Yes, I've heard of this, but forgot the name. I've heard good things about it.

metallization based therapy

fonagy is the kind of leader of it


https://books.google.com/books?id=ubsdAAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=mentalization+based+therapy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM5Lvc-ubLAhXERSYKHeHWAJgQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=mentalization%20based%20therapy&f=false

daveddd
03-29-16, 06:43 PM
a member was nice enough to email the full study we talked about earlier


i just wanted to post 2 cool (to me i guess) things nothing statistics;l

However, contrary to expectations, the ADHD group also had more Cluster C personality disorders than control participants. This could reflect the high overlap of fear and anxiety in inatten- tive symptoms in adults, but this issue is not well investigated, and we did not see subtype differences in our Cluster C effects. Modestin et al. (2001) found that patients with a history of ADHD developed OCPD more frequently than did control participants. Similar findings were reported by Geller et al. (2003, 2004). We replicated that result, with elevated OCPD in our ADHD sample, but also elevated avoidant personality disorder. It may be that an important etiological subgroup of ADHD is associated with anxious–obsessive features, perhaps in conjunction with an atten- tonal over focus; this warrants follow-up study.

just something that made me think

..



and of course

In conclusion, results of this study support the clinical validity of the ADHD construct in adulthood,

acdc01
04-01-16, 07:43 PM
I've decided not to mention pds if I suspect someone has one. I'm just not sure the risk is worth any potential reward.

Think it's just awful the medical community holds such a stigma against pds.