View Full Version : Mental illness mostly caused by life events not genetics, argue psychologists


SB_UK
03-29-16, 09:31 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12205847/Mental-illness-mostly-caused-by-life-events-not-genetics-argue-psychologists.html

Naughty, naughty Jeff Barrett.
The Mind, brain and genome are 3 separate abstraction layers of man - and the highest (mind) expresses itself (if broken) through breakage in lower (connected) layers.
The purpose of the mind is to know morality - any other application of the mind will lead to colossal brain (neurological eg Alzheimer's disease) and the body (genomic eg cancer) collapse.

eg
Mount Athos - no distress/morality education
(http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-do-mount-athos-monks-stay-so-healthy/)No Alzheimer's
Little cancer

Improvements necessary - ditch alcohol, ban use of voice (too much singing), stop their irritating drum habit, enable stable pair-bond and wear flowing soft hemp.

They're not doing badly though.

SB_UK
03-29-16, 09:33 AM
Mostly though - silence in the sun.

Over-stimulation (distress -> pain -> self-medication) overcome.

Basic function of the nerve.
Over-stimulation is the mechanism of neural death eg loss of limb - constant firing of nerves - triggers death.

Must not be over-stimulated - must be able to eliminate sensory stimulation - comparison to Intense World Theory.

Where's the line between Autism's Intense World Theory and ADHD's variant.
Adhd Appears to be able to handle as opposed to be overwhelmed by hyper-informational transfer via empathy.

Empathy, Sensory, Systematizing

Autism - overwhelmed by hyperfunctional empathy circuitry, overwhelmed by hyperfunctional sensory circuitry, capable of using sophisticated systematizing network generation
ADHD - capable of using hyperfunctional empathy circuitry, capable of using hyperfunctional sensory circuitry, capable of using sophisticated systematizing network generation
Schizophrenia - capable of using hyperfunctional empathy circuitry, capable of using hyperfunctional sensory circuitry, overwhelmed by using sophisticated systematizing network generation

Autism - not empathy-down but empathy-drowned - can't manage increased data stream
Schizophrenia - not systematizing-down but systematizing-drowned - can't manage the increased data stream

Element of Autism and Schizophrena in the merger of the mental health spectrum at ADHD.

ADHD (autism side)
ADD-I (schizophrenia side)

Autism -- Aspergers -- ADHD -*- ADD-I -- Schizophrenia
male archetype ---------------------------- female archetype

Schizophrenia - hyper'empathy' -- tendency towards artistic (sensory) expression -- systematizing down (don't make sense - appear to be disconnected from reality)
Autism - hyper'systematizing' -- sensory overload -- empathizing down (can't make sense of other people)

* Sensitive-type

-*-

Emergence of a novel neural mechanism which amplifies informational content fielded within/informational immersion.

Socaljaxs
03-29-16, 09:55 AM
The purpose of the mind is to know morality - any other application of the mind will lead to colossal brain (neurological eg Alzheimer's disease) and the body (genomic eg cancer) collapse.
Are you really, claiming "lack of morality"is what cases Alzheimer's? Or am I totally misunderstanding this one? :confused::scratch:


Improvements necessary - ditch alcohol, ban use of voice (too much singing), stop their irritating drum habit, enable stable pair-bond and wear flowing soft hemp..

I'm confused what does this have to do with anything? Wait no singing either? I thought singing was actually a healthy outlet for a person. While I'm not a fan of going to karaoke nights and find it kinda hard to be a part of for me, I'm still not i]understanding how a person lack of singing is good for the soul? Drum habit? Also, wearing hemp makes me break out in a rash.

SB_UK
03-29-16, 10:03 AM
http://www.alzheimers.net/2015-10-14/why-alzheimers-might-be-type-2-diabetes/
The link between Alzheimer’s disease and diabetes continues to grow stronger. A new study presented at the Society for Neuroscience meeting in San Diego shows that the disease may actually be the late stages of type 2 diabetes.


Morality
'Giving reward system'
Results in 'stability' in eg blood glucose levels ie even-ness

Not morality
'Taking reward system' (addictive reward system)
Distress [adictive reward system - for each high there's an equal and opposite low]
As highs are chased so do lows - the hunger increases
Self-medication
high GI / high fat -> diabetogenic
Alzheimer's

-*-

Too much information - sensory overstimulation eg
Intense World Theory - importance for health of eliminating sensory onslaught

BellaVita
03-29-16, 04:49 PM
I honestly think associating any disease or illness with morality is dangerous.

Once, I went [was basically forced] to an all-natural clinic and the doctor himself actually told me, that the reason I was sick was because of my past wrongdoings and I needed to become clean. He put all the guilt on me.

Of course, I found that utterly ridiculous and challenged him but he wouldn't listen so I ended up cursing at him then furiously went back to my room.

Fortune
03-29-16, 06:41 PM
Blaming people for their diagnoses by assigning them moral value is a really bad road to go down. It can justify all kinds of nasty garbage. What it doesn't do is lead to people getting the help and support they need. I would go so far as to say that assigning moral values to health is a morally and ethically bankrupt stance to maintain.

BellaVita
03-29-16, 07:39 PM
I also think people assign morality to health conditions because sometimes they want to bully and have power over the individual.

Lunacie
03-29-16, 07:55 PM
Blaming people for their diagnoses by assigning them moral value is a really bad road to go down. It can justify all kinds of nasty garbage. What it doesn't do is lead to people getting the help and support they need. I would go so far as to say that assigning moral values to health is a morally and ethically bankrupt stance to maintain.

Remember when the book "The Secret" was so popular? I never read it.

From what I heard it was all about getting what you want by visualizing it and believing you deserved it.

Which of course means when you don't get what you want that it's somehow your own fault, either you failed to believe or you didn't actually deserve it.

UGHHH!

mctavish23
03-29-16, 07:59 PM
For the Record.... :D

Beware Relying Strictly On "Psychologists (In General) Say..." ;)

Just Sayn :p


U R Welcome :cool:

aeon
03-29-16, 08:01 PM
Remember when the book "The Secret" was so popular? I never read it.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Proof that Lunacie is not a sucker or a sheep. :yes:


Rock On, Lunacie!
Ian

Little Missy
03-29-16, 08:59 PM
Hogwash. Isn't that what Colonel Potter would say? Horse Hockey. He said that too.

I'm not into anyone else's morality. Let them handle it.

ginniebean
03-29-16, 11:15 PM
I do get where you are coming with the word moral but language is difficult at the best of times. Words thru associations can become useless. Moral is a word that carries a very heavy burden in terms of the variety of possible usage, and attendant associations. Perhaps we need to find a different word that can express something close without it triggering conditioned responses. I'd be willing to knock about with you on that if you want. Might have to scrape a few centuries of gunk off of just about any word and perhaps we won't find a word that is quite exact but.. might be an interesting excercise in any case.

It is in the interests of psychologists to make this suggestion. I'm sure trauma takes it's toll, it's a traumatizing world

SB_UK
03-30-16, 03:11 AM
I do get where you are coming with the word moral but language is difficult at the best of times. Words thru associations can become useless. Moral is a word that carries a very heavy burden in terms of the variety of possible usage, and attendant associations. Perhaps we need to find a different word that can express something close without it triggering conditioned responses. I'd be willing to knock about with you on that if you want. Might have to scrape a few centuries of gunk off of just about any word and perhaps we won't find a word that is quite exact but.. might be an interesting excercise in any case.

It is in the interests of psychologists to make this suggestion. I'm sure trauma takes it's toll, it's a traumatizing world

That it's disease protective to nurture a mind which is geared towards making the world better for all.
That it's disease promoting to nurture a mind which does what it's told and contributes net detriment.

(morality helps to simplify the idea though)

The development and expression of a mind structured on morality is disease protective.

-*-

Under the cover what's going on.

People want to be captivated, interested, motivated by their daily lives.
You can't do this unless there's some deep sense of reward which arises from your daily life.
Reward must be felt and cannot be purchased.
We need to identify how people can access deep satisfaction or reward.
Once engaged in deeply rewarding activities - the mind is happy - not distressed - with distress underpinning disease.
The path to finding deeply rewarding activities isn't in the activity itself but in the motivation one has to engage in the activity.
Satisfying motivation arises as a mind which seeks to know morality (or to know how to and then actually does engage creativity with the intent of making things better for the collective).
So -
'know how to make things better for the collective' = know morality
leads to
'doing things which're better for the collective' = do morality
leads to
'satisfaction from what one does' = social reward system activation
leads to
'happy' = emotional regulation

or

A personal enquiry into morality
is an essential precursor in
Knowing how to behave morally
is an essential precursor in
Behaving morally
is an essential precursor in
Deriving deep satisfaction/reward from one's life
is an essential precursor in
Being happy
And
Healthy (since Distress - underlying all major diseases) is overcome.

-*-

Our highest emergent property is mind.
The mind is a 'thing' which is designed to achieve a rational grasp of morality.
It makes sense that we'd be diseased if we failed to use our defining characteristic incorrectly.
Which is what we do - as we grasp convoluted systems for producing within the convoluted system of economics to maintain inequality of man.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 03:26 AM
Simplifying

know morality = know
do morality = do
social reward system activation = motivation
emotional regulation = happy

-*-

Even more simply

know* - do - motivated - happy

* requires a mind which knows right from wrong

SB_UK
03-30-16, 03:31 AM
The acquisition of morality can be viewed as the shape of one's own mind after one has engaged in a personal education/enquiry into morality.
Nobody can tell you you're not moral.
Nobody can play the 'moral' card.
It's just the 'shape' of the mind after it has been constructed.

That shape will be wholly consistent with itself (internal logical consistency) and wholly consistent with collective wellbeing (external logical consistency) when formed.

So - the goal of mind is to know (rational) the 'right' (social) course of action.
Everything follows naturally from this point.

Just one error at the heart of society.

Society worships pointless complexity.
Simple morality is considered a sign of weakness.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 04:33 AM
I honestly think associating any disease or illness with morality is dangerous.

Once, I went [was basically forced] to an all-natural clinic and the doctor himself actually told me, that the reason I was sick was because of my past wrongdoings and I needed to become clean. He put all the guilt on me.

Of course, I found that utterly ridiculous and challenged him but he wouldn't listen so I ended up cursing at him then furiously went back to my room.

Simply
'build a mind which knows difference between right and wrong'
And
'obtain reward from doing right and aversion from doing wrong'
where
doing wrong includes many of the pursuits which society encourages people to do - or at least with the motivation that they're taught to have.

There's some irony in that the exact same activity can be 'right' or 'wrong' dependent on motivation.

If somebody tells you to be moral and are charging you for advice - then they're just playing the morality card - seizing the moral highground in order to extort something - be it money or power from you.

So - is there any guilt for an individual to feel if every form of educational experience be it in school, on TV, with friends etc leads to a mind which does not know morality and so acts accordingly.
You're not going to change by being told that you're immoral.
In fact - it's immoral to tell an individual they're immoral.

The only way for an individual to attain morality is for the individual to work out what is right and what is wrong for themselves.

I'm findign that if you tell a child to do something that they often don't listen.
But you've more chance if you can provide evidence.

ie show picture of teeth that have decayed - this is what happens when you don't brush your teeth
ie show pictures of obese people - this is what happens when you eat sugar/starch

etc - ie use simple aids so that they understand why they're supposed to adopt the 'right' moral stance.

Human ebeings aren't sophisticated enough - particularly children - to see a connection between the pleasure of sugar and the pain of dental bills.

Just showing picture after picture of gruesome decay works though.

I think that the recruiting an emotional response is useful in fixing memory.

-*-

I'm arguing the simple idea that all people are on the spectrum of unintelligence where the mark of intelligence is fixed morality ie incapacity to obtain reward from any pursuit which isn't in the collective benefit.

The pursuit of money,power,fame are the societally driven addictions which are most dangerous - since unlike alcohol, cigarettes, gambling ... ... they're chased.
Imagine children being lead to a jar of heroin by their parents and forced to eat their fill.

Here's a great statement of that idea:
... everybody's so concerned about heroin and marijuana and all that, until they forget the most dangerousest [sic] narcotic that exist's, and that's the narcotic that's injected into the minds of infants... it's called social narcotics...

-*-

So - and simply.

Everybody has a mind.
Your mind can be imageined as a structure.
When the structure frorms into a circle and everything that's housed with it is consistent with all available information and with collective wellbeing - then your mind is complete.
So - the human mind as a tool for generating a rational model for collective betterment; we can and should (diversity) generate our minds in as individual a manner as possible - but there has to be a strict rule that the minds are rational and social in nature.

It's interesting that the 2 ends of the psych spectrum involve - 'excess rational' (the Asperger's tendency to systematizing) and 'excess social' (the Schizophrenic's tendency to losing himself).

-*-


Once, I went [was basically forced] to an all-natural clinic and the doctor himself actually told me

I'm suggesting that you don't need anything other than a mind which knows right from wrong.
All downstream problems then naturally resolve.

NOBODY has done what I'm suggesting - which is why society is in such a mess.

EVERYBODY is in an addicted frenzy attempting to gain as much money, power, fame as they possibly can - unable to see that it's wrong.

Be careful though - the morality card is a powerful one to play - it's easy to get people to do what you want by twlling them that they're doing wrong if they disagree.

Thing is - is that the power of morality should be seen as the importance in getting this idea right and in seeing that morality is either a personal characteristic which we are working towards or working away from.

Nobody else can tell you how moral you are.

Tests of morality which you can use on yourself include - will just list the first 10 to come to mind

[1] Disenfranchisement with markers of materialism (money,power,fame) - as these require the addictive reward system to work ie the not yet moral reward system.
[2] Desire to be in a stimulation-free environment (stimulation activates the addictive reward system) - children can't entertain themselves with their own senses alone.
[3] Desire to be alone (no desire to aspire towards being highly placed in a human hierarchy - cf power)
[4] The desire to lose fairly in debates - as only then can one become better - the morality/wisdom structure of mind need not be highly granular ie won't know everything - but has places for novel information, if worthy, to be placed.
[5] Capacity to enter daydream in a millisecond - very strangely - this property is hastened when in the sunshine - almost immediate dissociation.
[6] No desire for food - a shift away from foods - partic growth promoting - which occurs (wasn't expecting this) through aversion from pain ie growth promoting foods actually recruit the appetite regulation - aversive mechanisms ... we 'grow' to despise them.
Finding that 'umami' (glutamate) is leading to very significant pain - have previously put glutamate and high GI on a par - but glutamate appears to be more significant in driving pain.
[7] Feeling good when you're engaged in good - feelign good as one's mind develops to know 'good' ie what's right and wrong - it's positively enjoyable elucidating sustainable building techniques - this is a moral pursuit.
[8] A mind which embraces prevention over cure - what happens here is that the resolving moral mind sees that human beings are the source of our own problems. In short - pursuit of systems which appeal to the addictive not yet moral reward system which feed on themselves leading us further from the natural reward of moral living.
[9] Tendency towards co-operative systems ie embracing flat structure organizations - each person contributing their own speciality - but what's nice in voluntary co-operatives is that specialities can be demystified by just asking ie people are happy to expose the secrets of their speciality - to be contrasted with current society where a shroud is maintained over specialist skills to prevent people from autonomy.
Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose are the motivators of human fincitoninf - where Purpose can be seen to be directly associated with the development of a mind of morality ie a mind which knows right from wrong.
Simply train -
Purpose (morality education) == EQUALITY -> leads to -> Motivation -> Mastery -> Autonomy == FRATERNITY (no toxic dependencies) -> Freedom == LIBERTY
[10] Words are used only for the purpose of communication to benefit others - there's no desire in any way to be considered 'special' through being able to field ideas which're different ie the concept of authority is lost - and the goal becomes to thoroughly disseminate all 'authority' from structured argument ... ... and move on - ever upwards.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 04:43 AM
Blaming people for their diagnoses by assigning them moral value is a really bad road to go down. It can justify all kinds of nasty garbage. What it doesn't do is lead to people getting the help and support they need. I would go so far as to say that assigning moral values to health is a morally and ethically bankrupt stance to maintain.

If any individual attempts any activity which they're not prepared for eg mountain climbing with protection, ice-skating etc then they stand a greater chance of injury than if they're prepared.

Preparation - from ther perspective of mind - our highest emergent property is simply to know right from wrong.

It should be possible to knock out a simple model of what's right or wrong in 30 minutes of concerted effort.

We simply need to ensure that what we're doing is rationally social and is geared towards making the world better for future generations - with the evolutionary imperative being towards creation - ie exponentially increasing informational complexity.

The wonderful work of the Markrams (and it's truly uplifting) shows us that we appear to be recruiting a mechanism for deeper immersion within the sensory world - ie to feel as though we belong within the richness of sensory sumptuousness from the world around as afforded through our senses.

One could call this an awakening - ie when we wake up we move from a state of little sensory detection to a flood of information cossseting our senses.

Why does informational flow activate our reward circuits ?

Why should it ?

If we simply see evolution as taking us towards a complexity - then it is reasonable to suggest that consciousness (another word for God) seeks information and information recognition to demarcate its next instantiation.

Being as simple as possible - the mind is 'dead' - with an understanding of evolution as being an exponential increase in informational complexity - we're given the eyes to see that what we should be expecting is a Theory of Everything (exponential increasing inormation content in the Universe via creator/evolution) which appears to be manifesting itself through human beings growing to adore beauty, elegance and efficiency.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 04:49 AM
I also think people assign morality to health conditions because sometimes they want to bully and have power over the individual.

Yes - statements like 'dulce et decorum est' although meant to illustrate the exact opposite - accurately references what human beings as savages have been all to easy to embrace.

It's not fitting to die for your country.

It is fitting to make everything better.

To shape (un)imaginable beauty in the world around.

A return to the garden.

Ejection from the garden wasn't any sign of a flaw in man - simply the need for man to acquire morality prior to being allowed back in.

The key point to make is that the Markram model (which almost makes me want to go back into the lab to define in accurate detail) renders the garden (when returned post-morality) as so much more energising.

The garden shifts froma place to be feared to a place of beauty where simple presence is enough to make us feel happy.

No more - the grass is greener - which in itself is clearly flawed in premise - when we think about it - however the alcoholic doesn't think about it - shifts from field to field only to find that all fields of expertise are variation on a theme of addiction arising through the disease to achieve satiety through consuming excessively.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 05:17 AM
For the Record.... :D

Beware Relying Strictly On "Psychologists (In General) Say..." ;)

Just Sayn :p


U R Welcome :cool:

Just looking at all research around us - we've entered into a world were sophisticated machinery for genomic and neural scanning has gained traction - understanding the twin words of psychology and philosopy at the level of mind have been pushed into the background.
There's a perceived lack of 'hardness' to science which revolves around quizzing the human mind.

Whereas what could be simpler than developing a mind with a series of ideas which together define a better world for people to live in.

The probem with Universities is that they're subdividing knowledge into boxes - but there's no separation between the chemistry of breathing from the science of sport to the science of physical injury to the science of the body's repair process to the mechanism of failed repair processes in cancer to the mechanism of growth arrest in chemotherapy to the nature of chemical pathways inhibited by toxins to the formation of chemicals to neutralize toxins to the industrial processes which churn toxins into the environment to the fossil fuel burning excesses which drive climate change to the erratic weathe events which lead to community destruction to the social decay which comes from people losing everything to poverty to crime to armed police that gun people down in the streets to race warfare to division and not unity in man.

The simple fact is that the human mind (as represented by the University) is 1 construct. And what Universities (education does) is to somehow make out that they're not - the individual with speciality develops tunnel vision - puts a black box around some aspect of reality which is fundamentally connected to all others - and the net effet is of mind generation which have the opposite of worldly wisdom and instead adopt a form of extreme Nationalist zeal in which their religion, speciality, coumtry, sporting team, car, chosen sport is better than the others.

Human beings with dangerously parochial ideas on reality - with the net efect being to fear strangers because 'they don't come from around these parts'.

Simplify this idea.

Develop a mind which from a rational perspective is social in nature.
And the rest will follow naturally.

Rational - systematizing - 'male archetype mind'
-> basis to mathematical differentiatiom
Social - empathizing - 'female archetype mind'
-> basis to mathematic integration

Key clue to the autonomous mechanism of evolution/creation
- a transcendental process in which what we observe is
1 - emergence of male archetype
2 - emergence of female archetype
3 - social structure formaiton

From 3 go to 1

As can be seen from the above - evoluton appears to work by an exponential progression to informational complexity
ie

dy/dx = x^2
vv integration vv
y = x^3/3 ... ...

On any evolutionary level we've additive effects on informational complexity
But on emergence we've an exponential leap in informational complexity

-*-

Simpifying mathematics and medicine.

The model world of amthematics
1. Calculus provides us with the maths of emergence
Anybody can do calculus - the key is to work out why it works.
It works because it's the fundamental nature (deeply engrained into the nature of nature) of evolutionary progression.

The real world of physics
2. Immediately prior to integration - the precursor structure (tree structure needs to complete) - when it completes the abstraction layer is sealed by a social impulse - it's not complete - and we move onto something new - ie jump a level.

The world of medicine
3. Human disorders occur if the transitions of 1. and 2. aren't followed - basically meaning that the huan mind is required to develop a social nature for group cohesion to occur and for emgence to take us to the next level of human functioning.

This can be understood simply as:
End of knowledge (the development of a mind which understands creation/evolution - see above)
and
The start of quality (informational complexity, the love of beauty)

-- where the Markram model which is a definition of a neural mechanism which gives rise to greater personal quality propensity through increased capacity for sensitivity comes in.

So - a higher sensori-cerebellar-motor cortical network which can be considered to be akin to exposure to higher resolution.

Imagine the difference between listening to music on poor conversion or watching video at low resolution and then listening (the joy) of listening to music or watching video at higher resolution - and that 'pleasure' you imagine is the pleasure we associate with the Markram model's finding of cortical mechanism for increased sensitivity.

-*-

All experiences take on greater sensual appeal.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 05:25 AM
For the Record.... :D

Beware Relying Strictly On "Psychologists (In General) Say..." ;)

Just Sayn :p


U R Welcome :cool:

We've
genome - high tech machinery has made this the key research area of our time
neuroscience - high tech machinery coming on line making neuroscience a fast follower
psychology/philosophy - the understanding of what the individual understands as the poor cousin to other mechanisms for understanding man.

Whilst true that we can be more sure of genome and neuroscience because they're easier to probe - this does notin any way mean that they're going to assist us in understanding diseases of the mind.

I think that all that we require to understand is that the human mind is supposed to be a thing which the individual has which allows the individual to tell right from wrong - and that all downstream consequences of human disease resolve as long as we embrace this novel method of education.

It doesn't matter if an individual can pass examinations based on mechanical systems - for the individual's own wellbeing, the individual needs the motivation which comes from a sense of purpose.

Purpose can only arise if the individual has a deep, rational belief in the worth of their pursuit.

Worth can be considered group utility.

-*-

I don't really understand why people who work in areas where the world is not improving because of their daily activities can pay attention.
Sure - there's the temporary fix of injecting heroin, money, power, fame into one's veins but that just grows the hunger.

Hunger - Over-consumption - Dangerous choices are made to feed an ever-mounting hunger (child abuse, speeding, theft, human abuse, female abuse ...etc... )

SB_UK
03-30-16, 05:31 AM
'The Secret'What's that ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%28book%29

For example, if a person wanted a new car, by thinking positively about the new car, having thankful feelings about the car as if it were already attained, and opening one's life in tangible ways for a new car to be acquired (for instance, test-driving the new car, or making sure that no-one parks in the space where the new car would arrive), the law of attraction would rearrange events to make it possible for the car to manifest in the person's life.Feeling pain reading that wikipedia page.

Know what's right.
Know what's wrong.
What's right becomes attractive/motivational.
What's wrong becomes unattractive/aversive/painful/unmotivational.
Eventually we arrive at a point where (through fixed morality/wisdom) - the allure of behaviours which are of addictive reward capacity and therefore damaging to the indivdual's health - is overcome.

-*-

That whole book (from the wikipedia page) is nonsense.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 09:47 AM
Mental illness mostly caused by life events not genetics, argue ... ...

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v13/n1/full/nrn3138.html

Mounting evidence suggests that acute and chronic stress, especially the stress-induced release of glucocorticoids, induces changes in glutamate neurotransmission in the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus, thereby influencing some aspects of cognitive processing. In addition, dysfunction of glutamatergic neurotransmission is increasingly considered to be a core feature of stress-related mental illnesses. Recent studies have shed light on the mechanisms by which stress and glucocorticoids affect glutamate transmission, including effects on glutamate release, glutamate receptors and glutamate clearance and metabolism. This new understanding provides insights into normal brain functioning, as well as the pathophysiology and potential new treatments of stress-related neuropsychiatric disorders.


Just (di)stress.

-*-

Information overload.

Lunacie
03-30-16, 11:13 AM
I do get where you are coming with the word moral but language is difficult at the best of times. Words thru associations can become useless. Moral is a word that carries a very heavy burden in terms of the variety of possible usage, and attendant associations. Perhaps we need to find a different word that can express something close without it triggering conditioned responses. I'd be willing to knock about with you on that if you want. Might have to scrape a few centuries of gunk off of just about any word and perhaps we won't find a word that is quite exact but.. might be an interesting excercise in any case.

It is in the interests of psychologists to make this suggestion. I'm sure trauma takes it's toll, it's a traumatizing world

I don't doubt that trauma takes it's toll on us, but I very much doubt that it's the cause of mental illness.

General sadness, general depression, general anxiety, mostly short lived. Sure.

But not clinical life long mental illness.

Yeah, for trauma talking with someone is often the best medicine. But talking to a therapist isn't going to cure clinical mental illnesses. IMO.

daveddd
03-30-16, 12:10 PM
I don't doubt that trauma takes it's toll on us, but I very much doubt that it's the cause of mental illness.

General sadness, general depression, general anxiety, mostly short lived. Sure.

But not clinical life long mental illness.

Yeah, for trauma talking with someone is often the best medicine. But talking to a therapist isn't going to cure clinical mental illnesses. IMO.

Talking generally does not cure trauma based mental illness


I dont think clinical mental illness is nearly as black and white as youre laying it out here


Ptsd is not a clinical condition?

daveddd
03-30-16, 12:25 PM
I kinda of see some points here

I belive the intense world thing and the autism and schizoid thing

Working in a factory 12 hours a day just to put food on the table cant be mentally healthy

Lunacie
03-30-16, 12:29 PM
Talking generally does not cure trauma based mental illness


I dont think clinical mental illness is nearly as black and white as youre laying it out here


Ptsd is not a clinical condition?

It's not as simple as genetic versus aquired. PTSD and TBI are both classified in the DSM-5.

Talk therapy along with SSRI's do seem to be the first line treatment for PTSD.

I didn't mean to make it seem black or white.

Everyone suffers from sadness from time to time, but when it's unremitting it's something different.

Same with being anxious or forgetful or over-reactive emotionally.

If it's something that you've always felt to some degree, a life long issue, that's a mental illness and I think it's something genetic, something we're born with, something that can't be cured or gotten over and moved past.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 01:42 PM
Distress exposure
Stress, glucocorticoids and glutamate release (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21689704)


Distress mediated changes in food (comfort food) intake
increased carb intake (partic sugar/starch)
increased glycolytic flux
increased citric acid cycling
increased excitotoxin levels (asparatate, glutamate) via glycolysis/citric acid cycle - oxaloacetate, pyruvate and a-ketoglutarate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid_synthesis)
Increased excitotoxicity
glutamate (+) overwhelms GABA (-)

Glutamate dominance.
It is increasingly recognized that stress and its neurochemical and endocrine mediators induce changes in glutamate synapses and circuitry, and this in turn modify mental states.

Epilepsy (anticonvulsant)
- corrected by GABA normalization (increase) relative to Glutamate
eg Epilepsy's excitotoxin-free and ketosis therapeutic interventions

Epilepsy (anticonvulsant) -> also treatments for bipolar disorder
eg lamictal and ... ...
--- link --- (http://www.healthline.com/health/bipolar-disorder/guide-anticonvulsants)
• valproic acid: Depacon, Depakene, and Stavzor.
[covered extensively cf link to beta-hydroxybutyrate -> potentiates GABA]
• divalproex sodium (a variation of valproic acid): Depakote, Depakote ER, and Depakote Sprinkles.
[SEE ABOVE]
• carbamazepine: Tegretol XR, Tegretol, Equetro, Epitol and Carbatrol.
[GABA agonist]
• lamotrigine: Lamictal , Lamictal Orange, Lamictal Blue and Lamictal Green.
[SODIUM CHANNEL BLOCKING cf Lithium? -- reduces neural excitability - fielding action potentials]
• topiramate: Topamax Sprinkle and Topamax
[GABA/SODIUM channel]
• gabapentin: Neurontin and Gabarone .
[potentiate GABA]

-*-

Summarising
Emergence of sensitivity
->
Insensitive (info overload) environment [the nerve does not want to be over-used]
->
Distess exposure
->
Glutamate dominance over GABA
->
Common 'pure' psychiatric disorders

Also

Anxiety/Depression
GABA treatment - valium

-*-

Schizophrenia, ADHD, Autism (higher up) <- disorders of sensitivity distressed
Epilepsy, Anxiety (to PTSD), Bipolar disorder (above) <- disorders of distress (GABA diminished)
- the key psych disorders fit into a model of information overload in newly emergent intrinisc sensitivity.

-*-

The reason why there's such overlap between the psych therapeutics.

-*-

Solution
To enable people the freedom to walk away when they're no longer 'enjoying' it.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 01:49 PM
Individual gaining morality within a species governed by morality
Distress elimination
Stress, glucocorticoids and glutamate release no longer an issue (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21689704)
Distress mediated changes in food (comfort food) intake -- increased carb intake (partic sugar/starch) avoided
Physical disorders of Diabesity through Cancer to Alzheimer's arrested
increased glycolytic flux prevented
increased citric acid cycling no longer occurs
increased excitotoxin levels (asparatate, glutamate) via glycolysis/citric acid cycle - oxaloacetate, pyruvate and a-ketoglutarate not witnessed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid_synthesis)
Increased excitotoxicity does not occur
glutamate (+) overwhelms GABA (-) no longer
Glutamate dominance is not seen
It is increasingly recognized that stress and its neurochemical and endocrine mediators induce changes in glutamate synapses and circuitry, and this in turn modify mental states.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 01:51 PM
So - spirit, mind, body.

Spirit - the development of a social mind
combats diseases of
Mind - psychiatric disorders through GABA/Glutamate imbalance
combats diseases of
Body - from diabesity through cancer, standard neurological and diseases of an overactive immune system

This is neat as it encompasses the physical disorder, the mental disorder and the spiritual disorder into one interconnected train - with spiritual disorder (failure ot generate a moral mind) as the key factor in downstrream breakage.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 02:03 PM
So Mental illness mostly caused by life events not genetics [or intrinsic neurological defect] argue psychologists.

The elephant in the room is emergence of sensitivity as it wholly undermines any form of strategy other than holistic, global socail environmental in correcting the disease state.
Just 1 basic change in man - the emergence of sensitivity.
And 1 consequence - distress through information overload.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 02:32 PM
Other comments.

1. Increased muscular tone (excessive stiffness) through increased Glutamate dominance over GABA eg stiff person syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiff_person_syndrome)
GABA agonist treatment

2. Physical inflexibility through distress

3. Bodily cramp treated through GABA agonists

4. Gamma hydroxy-butyrate - as similar as similar can be to Beta hydroxy-butyrate and to GABA Chemically closely related to GABA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid), it acts on the GABA receptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GABA_receptor) and on the GHB receptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHB_receptor).5. Gamma hydroxy-butyrate - treatment of narcolepsy - Dexedrine treatment of narcolepsy also.

6. Low-carb diets, fasting and euphoria: Is there a link between ketosis and gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB)? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17011713)

7. beta-hydroxybutyrate is an HDACinhibitor, growth retardant (HDACi treats overgrowth disorders) and is neural network (sensitivity) promoting (valproic acid model of autism)

We've a basic battle between carb and ketone body as metabolic fuel which reflects itself in glutamate/GABA balance - in quantity of growth vs quality of life.

Morality supports GABA dominance.
The primitive reward system (Sweet/Umami foods) support Glutamate dominance.

In the absence of morality, the individual does not make the transition from primitive (growth paradigm) to higher (social paradigm) reward system.

-*-

Morality is the key - we need to change reward systems from growth promoting into neural network quality sensing promoting.

From quantity of growth to quality of life.

SB_UK
03-30-16, 02:47 PM
7. beta-hydroxybutyrate is an HDACinhibitor, growth retardant (HDACi treats overgrowth disorders) and is neural network (sensitivity) promoting (valproic acid model of autism)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649608/

The broad spectrum HDAC inhibitors mostly affect Class I HDACs with little effect on Class II HDACs22 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649608/#b22).
HDAC3 is the most highly expressed class I HDAC in the brain with greatest expression in the neurons of hippocampus, cortex, and cerebellum23 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649608/#b23) and is a critical negative regulator of learning and memory24 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649608/#b24),25 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649608/#b25).
Selective inhibition of HDAC3 enhances the memory26 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649608/#b26).

-*-

Physical growth
'sweet/umami' reward system -- glycolytic
Education in morality
'bitter/acid/salt' reward system -- mitochondrial
Mental quality

This model is interesting because it identifies why the monsters of society that chase money, power and fame are 'stupid' ie are of low intrinisc quality. An ascetic environment is required for neural networks to flourish.

Intelligence = closeness of fit to moral nature
Quality = training of neural networks (learning) within a pro-neural network development (ketosis) metabolic milieu

daveddd
03-30-16, 03:58 PM
It's not as simple as genetic versus aquired. PTSD and TBI are both classified in the DSM-5.

Talk therapy along with SSRI's do seem to be the first line treatment for PTSD.

I didn't mean to make it seem black or white.

Everyone suffers from sadness from time to time, but when it's unremitting it's something different.

Same with being anxious or forgetful or over-reactive emotionally.

If it's something that you've always felt to some degree, a life long issue, that's a mental illness and I think it's something genetic, something we're born with, something that can't be cured or gotten over and moved past.


Everyone suffers from sadness from time to time, but when it's unremitting it's something different.

Same with being anxious or forgetful or over-reactive emotionally

yep, normal human emotions , not mental illness

nothing in the DSM states you have to be born with something to be a mental illness

Lunacie
03-30-16, 04:27 PM
Everyone suffers from sadness from time to time, but when it's unremitting it's something different.

Same with being anxious or forgetful or over-reactive emotionally

yep, normal human emotions , not mental illness

nothing in the DSM states you have to be born with something to be a mental illness

I used the words "I think", meaning "in my opinion." I did not state that the DSM-5 was based on my opinion.

acdc01
03-31-16, 12:58 AM
SB_UK, you're telling us that we (who all have mental illnesses) are suffering now because of our lack of morality (either current or in the past). I'd be insulted if I didn't know you often ruminate on morality.

What do you think of your own mental illness(es) and your own morality?

SB_UK
03-31-16, 02:30 AM
I think you're essentially trolling with your posts here SB_UK. You're telling us that we (who all have mental illnesses) are suffering now because of our lack of morality (either current or in the past). I'd be insulted if I didn't know you often ruminate on morality.

What do you think of your own mental illness(es) and your own morality?

Simply
Human beings have not realised that the whole point of the human mind has been to know right from wrong.
Knowing right from wrong is not a character which is gained through Western-style educational systems.
The individual passes through life with the desire to get on (acquisition of money, power, fame, beating people) and is not equipped - because his educational and wider environment hasn't permitted him/her to acquire morality.
Not acquiring fixed morality is not the same as being immoral.
An individual who is immoral may be indistinguishable externally from an individual with fixed morality.
Once armed with fixed morality at an individual and group level - the systems which an individual and group engage in will chain from the competitive practices which're enforced in this world.
This will result in lifestyle changes in people.
Mental illness mostly caused by life events not genetics, argue psychologists
So - to illustrate:

Working in a factory 12 hours a day just to put food on the table cant be mentally healthy

It is not moral for an individual or a species to allow people to work for 12 hours per day on min wage to simply get by.
I've done this job (but only for weeks) and everybody I spoke to told me to ensure that I'm never in a situation where I am forced to work in this environment.

Summary
1. I am clearly stating that the acquisiition of morality on an individual and collective level will overcome all common diseases
2. Since the disease causing factors (such as dddd's above) which all relate to maintaining human hierarchies and inequality will collapse.
3. The simpest way for this to occur is for human beings to form local co-operatives where all basic needs are generated collectively - which I believe can occur with next to no time required, if we embrace modern farming systems and work together.
4. This is in line with the most famous philosopher of recent times suggesting that 'workers must own the means of production'.
5. Once you've paid your way (in a co-operative) go and do whatever you like - without expectation of pay.
6. You are now happy/free - and so will not be subject to the lifestyle pressures which occur in a co-ercive - where you're made to pay for everything - societal infrastructure.

-*-

Even more simply.

Failure to attain morality on an individual/collective level underlies human disease.

From the strict perspective of ADHD and 'overstimulation'
- we have a co-ercive (not moral society) in which we're forced despite discomfort to engage in activities for reasons of making money (survival)
If we weren't forced - we'd simply walk away.
Through being forced (by a society in which individuals/collective are not moral) we're subject to stress.
Stress incapacitates.

So - rather than take it personally - it's individual enlightenment within a group context which is required to combat disease.
But even in the case of morality having been achieved within an unenlightened grouo context - disease would still occur.

So unenlightened individual within unenlightened collective - disease (the addictive reward system is pursued)
So enlightened individual within unenlightened collective - disease (enforced pursuit of immoral practices by the moral is deeply stressful)
So unenlightened individual within enlightened collective - we're all enlightened at birth - an enligthened collective will ensure an appropriate education for children to ensure enlightenment
So enlightened individual (adult) within enlightened collective - all is good.

Ahhh! but won't we be sad when somebody close to us dies ?
No - loss of material world attachment and the knowledge tha they've lived a good disease-free life will eliminate the dependencies which feel sorrow upon death.
All people die - but unless the scheme above is followed - people are dying without ever getting to live.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 02:53 AM
The last paragraph is meant to point to the one inesapable truth of mind and life.

As soon as the mind activates, it realises that it (the individual) must die.

I'm suggesting that the fear of death is overcome by the acquisition of wisdom.

That people will dismantle their desire to live forever (to be remembered) and plain existence will be enough.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 03:16 AM
Even more simply.

Individual/Group morality changes the life experiences that you're subject to.
eg working 12 hours in a factory

Individual/Group morality changes your reaction to life experiences also
eg loss of material world attachment alters one's grief levels when a friend who has lived a long and fulfilling life dies without prior disease/pain

Noting that
Individual/Group morality ensures that people live a long and fulfilling life without prior disease/pain

ie from disease eradication to finding a happy life is all conditional on individual / group morality acquisition.

And the sole point that I'm making is that human beings have made a COLOSSAL error in not realising what the human mind is for - and have pursued the acquisition of 'data' as opposed to 'fine-scale rational morality' as the purpose of mind.

-*-

So - knowing right from wrong 'changes' mind.
I believe that morality education stimulates 'emotion' which is a key aspect of memory formation.
The problem with 'standard' education is that elicits no emotion other than bleughhh! - and I'm referring across the board from fundamental physics to sociology.

Now - they're all useful - but they need to be phrased in a way which explains why the child should be interested - so that the child is interested.

The basic question that a child should be aaking is - 'Yes - what you've told me is trivial - but why should I care ?' ... ...
ie overcoming Western style educational selection for docility in favour of encouraging the development of free-thinking individuals.

Now - the entire spectrum of education from basic to avant garde art has a place - but the place is to enrich the student - to enthuse the student - and not just to partition students into bins the majorty of which are collected on a Monday morning by a garbage disposal truck.

People should be helped to find their happy place - and this is only possible if people pay their way through collective co-operative operation in human essentials (2 hours per week) and then committed self-directed learning in whichever paradigm which excites.

Self-direction will have some relationship with age ie primary school education geared towards language acquisition will need to be retained.

Personal opinion - handling language is of great importance in this idea.

Systematically climbing language from fundamentalist simplcty to handling abstraction is an important part in obtaining morality.

To see that the tree is not a tree - that there's nothing 'solid' about any of the structures of reality.
That
reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one
held together by social impulses which maintain abstraction layers.

namazu
03-31-16, 03:28 AM
People should be helped to find their happy place - and this is only possible if people pay their way through collective co-operative operation in human essentials (2 hours per week) and then committed self-directed learning in whichever paradigm which excites.

To me, 2 hours/week seems like a vast (by 1-2 orders of magnitude) underestimate of the amount of time necessary to take care of the essentials, even assuming a minimalist lifestyle. (Modern tools don't materialize out of thin air, after all -- someone has to fabricate and maintain them, too -- and to manufacture and deploy them in a sustainable and environmentally-friendly fashion often requires additional labor.)

SB_UK
03-31-16, 05:16 AM
To me, 2 hours/week seems like a vast (by 1-2 orders of magnitude) underestimate of the amount of time necessary to take care of the essentials, even assuming a minimalist lifestyle. (Modern tools don't materialize out of thin air, after all -- someone has to fabricate and maintain them, too -- and to manufacture and deploy them in a sustainable and environmentally-friendly fashion often requires additional labor.)

I don't think that we're too far off 0 hours per week - with intelligent automation.

eg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1QXCnC-2h4

Couldn't find the Japanese one I've been looking at - 100% automated.

Should be fully automated - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn

Design to fabrication of houses is close to fully automated - I think we're at the stage where assembly of self-designed houses like Ikea furniture is possible.

Solar panels are off the shelf ... ... composting toilets and local water collection and filtering -

- and we should be down to 0 hour weeks.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 05:22 AM
Schizophrenia, ADHD, Autism (higher up) <- disorders of sensitivity distressed
Epilepsy, Anxiety (to PTSD), Bipolar disorder (above) <- disorders of distress (GABA diminished)


eg

Depression, epilepsy, post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and chronic pain exemplify medical conditions that are exacerbated by stress, have low heart rate variability (HRV) and low GABAergic activityhttp://www.scopus.com/record/display.uri?eid=2-s2.0-84862790535&origin=inward&txGid=0


Glutamate - stimulation
GABA - the opposite of stimulation

Information overload -> Sensitivity -> Stimulation -> Glutamate
Information withdrawal -> Sensitivity -> Reduced Stimulation -> GABA

So - multiple models of favouring GABA over Glutamate
[1] Elimination of sensory information immersion
[2] Elimination of umami/sweet (glutamate and high GI foods) excitotoxins
[3] Elimination of distress (eg enforced collusion in immorality)

So ... ... 3 key levels - all contravened in current society which prevent us from obtaining an appropriate GABA/Glutamate balance.

namazu
03-31-16, 05:54 AM
Design to fabrication of houses is close to fully automated - I think we're at the stage where assembly of self-designed houses like Ikea furniture is possible.

Solar panels are off the shelf ... ... composting toilets and local water collection and filtering -

- and we should be down to 0 hour weeks.

But that's my point -- nothing is "off the shelf" without someone first putting it there. (Or operating the robot that puts it there...)

If you plan to outsource all of this -- obtaining components for and then making the solar panels, cutting the trees and synthesizing the plastics that go into ready-to-assemble Ikea homes, making industrial fungus food products -- then this is hardly "self-sustaining".

Furthermore, you'd be outsourcing much of the labor, stress, grunt-work, and hypothetically-associated mental health issues onto other people, which would seem quite at odds with your stated goal of contributing to a more moral world in which everyone gets to enjoy the benefits of the cooperative system.

If you plan to do all of this yourself, you're looking at far more than 2 hours a week.

Even ignoring all of that... Unless you live next to a natural spring, water doesn't pump itself; to supply a community would likely require an awful lot of solar power and/or physical labor to generate enough power to collect and purify and distribute it all -- even if you do some passive collection of rainwater. Composting toilets are great, but someone still has to clean them regularly, and to shovel out the products. Small-scale farming is lovely, at least, if you live in a place with a long growing season and fertile soils. But then someone has to plant and harvest and preserve and keep pests away (presumably without toxic pesticides?). Let us not forget heat in the winter -- which, if you live in an Ikea house made of compressed oatmeal, you're quite likely to need to generate...

Until you figure out how to photosynthesize, I'm not seeing how true off-the-grid living could be less than a full-time work endeavor, let alone a "near-zero" kind of thing.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 06:33 AM
It's important to note that the 0 hour per week schedule opens the door for people to choose a personally rewarding path in life not to simply (though this is an option) laze around all day.

Problem with lazing around - is that we don't enrich our own lives by 'learning' (broad-sense) - 'learning' (broad-sense) increases our enjoyment of life - through imparting a deeply rewarding quality-sensing capacity.

Sophisticated pattern recognition - when learnt - is rewarding in itself.

Though - still open to the idea that upon developing personal quality (at the system, empathic and sensory levels) - ie in the fields of STEM, humanities and the arts - upon attaining wisdom - the personal pursuit of quality ceases to be of importance.

So - to suggest that we currently live in a world where we court low quality (ie addictive pursuits of the acquisition of money, power, fame) - and that what we should be doing is supplanting these motivations/actions with the pursuit of personal quality encompassing attaining a rational model of human context (what is God ? what is man ? where dod we come form ? where are we going ?) ... ... and that the combination of 'quality' in some field + understanding context leads to a transition to wisdom - in which it appears that plain existence in the sun is enough.

Why sun ?
The sun (heat and a certain wavelength of light (the wavelength resposnible for tanning)) appears to trigger immediate dissociation, an an uplift in mood.

The temptation is to suggest that we're on the verge of turning solar powered.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 06:37 AM
Mental illness mostly caused by life events not genetics, argue psychologists

eg
http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/high-rates-binge-drinking-may-be-caused-extreme-latitudeSO many examples.

Lifestyle - living without the sun - inducing alcoholism.

Note - Gamma Hydroxybutyrate suggested as a treatment for alcoholism.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 07:01 AM
But that's my point -- nothing is "off the shelf" without someone first putting it there. (Or operating the robot that puts it there...)

If you plan to outsource all of this -- obtaining components for and then making the solar panels, cutting the trees and synthesizing the plastics that go into ready-to-assemble Ikea homes, making industrial fungus food products -- then this is hardly "self-sustaining".

Furthermore, you'd be outsourcing much of the labor, stress, grunt-work, and hypothetically-associated mental health issues onto other people, which would seem quite at odds with your stated goal of contributing to a more moral world in which everyone gets to enjoy the benefits of the cooperative system.

If you plan to do all of this yourself, you're looking at far more than 2 hours a week.

Even ignoring all of that... Unless you live next to a natural spring, water doesn't pump itself; to supply a community would likely require an awful lot of solar power and/or physical labor to generate enough power to collect and purify and distribute it all -- even if you do some passive collection of rainwater. Composting toilets are great, but someone still has to clean them regularly, and to shovel out the products. Small-scale farming is lovely, at least, if you live in a place with a long growing season and fertile soils. But then someone has to plant and harvest and preserve and keep pests away (presumably without toxic pesticides?). Let us not forget heat in the winter -- which, if you live in an Ikea house made of compressed oatmeal, you're quite likely to need to generate...

Until you figure out how to photosynthesize, I'm not seeing how true off-the-grid living could be less than a full-time work endeavor, let alone a "near-zero" kind of thing.

[1]
Using off-the-shelf to mean automated processes in terms of development and recycling.
With solar panels having a 25 year life-cycle - we've a once in a 25 year need for human involvement - and even then - the involvement is little more than unplugging and plugging a panel.
1 hours work every 25 years ?

[2]
The current brand of eco- sustainable Passiv-houses are made from waste products - see Modcell (basically just straw). Building, I believe is similar to building a lego house. So - a couple of days effort - with the possibility of multiple generations following you into the house ie 1 days work every 100 years.

[3]
I believe that quorn generation is a fully automated process.
I guess that maintenance need can be reflected in design - if we're simply talking about a fermented (heater) then I'm sure a robust design can be created.

[4]
Nothing can be outsourced to people in a world without money - there's no way of making anybody do anything in a world without money.

[5]
I think it's possible, as soon as the systems are up and running (you'll need to accept a transition in which time to dismantle currently unsustainable practices is required) - that nobody need contribute more than a little time to supplying themselves with basic essentials.

[6]
The video mentions that external weather conditions don't impact this form of agriculture; I think that fusing this system with aquaponics is my favoured mechanism for makeing the system work. I think that simple water circulation whould be sufficient - with some level of topping up. All possible through local rain water harvesting and low tech (sand) filtering alongside (if necessary) solar powered desalination plants.

Important point to make - that setting up robust automated systems will require people - I'm looking more at the need for human involvement after robust systems have been put in place. Also looking to automated sensors which identify efficiencies of all stages in the process ie identifying failures in the simple systems involved such that they can be fixed.

[7]
Multiple solutions to composting toilets - but it's important to re-use human waste, potentially to harvest energy from them in a biodigester - and certainly to use it to enrich the land. Having to handle one's own waste in an environmentally sustainable manner would seem like the intelligent thing to do.

[8]
'long growing seasons and fertile soils' - according to the video are not necessary where automated hydroponic meets aquaponics.

[9]
Pesticides + Herbicides - according to the video above - are not necessary.

[10]
Heat in Winter - I think that the Passive House design has overcome this issue.
From the energy experts I've talked to - it appears as though air pump + solar panels are a standalone system for ensuring an appropriate living environment.

-*-

So ... ... ... a number of practical issues - but as long as the solutions are robust and relatively easy to manage - we can arrive at a world in which local communities generate life's essentials with approaching no overhead once automated systems are in place.

However - one should note - that people might actually want to contribute effort to their own needs - if they're supplying their own needs and are their own boss ... ...

[11]
Human photosynthesis - I don't really like any of the above ^^^ human photosynthesis is obviously the right solution ... ... but we don't appear to be there just yet.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 07:04 AM
eg
http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/high-rates-binge-drinking-may-be-caused-extreme-latitudeSO many examples.

Lifestyle - living without the sun - inducing alcoholism.

Note - Gamma Hydroxybutyrate suggested as a treatment for alcoholism.

Inuit - ketosis lifestyle - no issues with mental disorder / alcoholism.

SB_UK
03-31-16, 07:45 AM
The core problem I'm observing with people is that the boss tries to get away with doing as little work as possible through bullying staff and delegation - and the staff try to get away with doing as little work as possible by cutting every corner which they can without being caught.

And of course the boss pretends that they're hard working and that operations will fold without their expert guidance.
The employee pretends that they'e hard working too - and that they're the ones keeping any operation afloat.

Complete delusion -where in truth - the operation involving boss/employee is most likely not necessary.

What we need is a system in which somebody has the wisdom to see that human beings are intrinsically lazy and which supplies them with their needs without human beings having to lift a finger.

Are human beings intrinsically lazy ?
Yes - if they're 'told' as opposed to 'choose' any given task.

'choice' defines hte difference between workshy and motivated.

Donny997
04-01-16, 05:47 AM
I agree with the title... I've never seen someone with mental illness who traversed all the developmental hurdles in childhood, adolescence and adulthood perfectly. Or maybe I'm ignorant about this and 100% endogenous depression/ anxiety does exist. Actually, I think bipolar and psychopathy and borderline have very, very strong endogenous elements. And major depression, but even there I have to wonder: has there ever been a case documented where someone with major depression had the most perfect life and was nourished optimally in all areas of development: affilitation, individuation, sexuality / competition, etc.?

Obviousy some people are more susceptible, but the final tipping point is always trauma.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 06:06 AM
I agree with the title... I've never seen someone with mental illness who traversed all the developmental hurdles in childhood, adolescence and adulthood perfectly. Or maybe I'm ignorant about this and 100% endogenous depression/ anxiety does exist. Actually, I think bipolar and psychopathy and borderline have very, very strong endogenous elements. And major depression, but even there I have to wonder: has there ever been a case documented where someone with major depression had the most perfect life and was nourished optimally in all areas of development: affilitation, individuation, sexuality / competition, etc.?

Obviousy some people are more susceptible, but the final tipping point is always trauma.

Exactly - the only additional point to make - is that if we see 'sensitivity' ie high to low sensitivity as the endogenous character - then the exact same magnitude of distressor will exert trauma in an individual who's sensitive and not in an individual who is insensitive.

So - I live in fear of fireworks - but many people seem to enjoy them.
I won't go anywhere near a roller-coaster - though many appear to like them.

Make sensitivity the inherited capacity ... sensitivity to trauma - and trauma (as you mentions) acts as the trigger - though sensitivity to trigger alters from individual to individual.

This would make for the perfect inherited component giving rise to the mistaken view of 'geneticness' in highly heritable psychiatric conditions.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 06:40 AM
I agree with the title... I've never seen someone with mental illness who traversed all the developmental hurdles in childhood, adolescence and adulthood perfectly. Or maybe I'm ignorant about this and 100% endogenous depression/ anxiety does exist. Actually, I think bipolar and psychopathy and borderline have very, very strong endogenous elements. And major depression, but even there I have to wonder: has there ever been a case documented where someone with major depression had the most perfect life and was nourished optimally in all areas of development: affilitation, individuation, sexuality / competition, etc.?

Obviousy some people are more susceptible, but the final tipping point is always trauma.

You raise an interesting point about childhood developmental issues.
This comes up time an time again and seems to take the form of parents not being attuned to the needs of their children.

I don't really like this idea.

I think that what we need is a supportive collective environment where children explore for themselves.
Am finding (personal observation) that an overly supportive parenting environment discourages independence.
Forces dependence relationships in which children do not have sufficient faith in their own minds to solve problems.

There needs to be a happy environmental milieu where children are empowered to explore.
Fiddle with your bike - you'll probably make a hash of it - but there's somebody there to tell you what you're doign wrong. Do this in our current world and we need to take the bike to some mechanisc who charges money to fix the problem. The fear of interacting with people who just want money - has a knock-on effect in stifling an inquisitive nature.

As mone-making and the profit-motive sweep society - you're only allowed to sit in your corner and do what you're told under fear of being charged for stepping out of line.

We're not charged entry into a supermarket because the supermarket makes its money back through your custom.

-*-

We've generated a world in which any motivational pursuit (what a child might call fun) carries a cost which poor people cannot justify.

We can't try out indoor skiing - too expensive.
Can't go to the cinema - too expensive.
Can't visit a funfair - too expensive.
Can't have a go on any rides - too expensive.
Can't afford pay TV (nothing on free TV) - too expensive
Can't use our bikes - low quality always falling apart - can't afford a car mechanic


My point is - is that we've developed a world where childhood boredom occurs through having to pay for 'things' which by rights should be free.

Even activities such as programming - which should be close to null cost - are being charged at much more than I earn over an equivalent period.

-*-

My point is - is that 'entertainment' 'education' 'exercise' 'exercise equipment' 'healthy food acquisition' are all beyond the reach of the average person - mostly because of the cost of housing/rent.

A thoroughly dysfunctional world - in which these lifestyle issues (ie incapacity to engage in activities which may enrich the individual's life) are prohibitively expensive.

Learning to play a musical instrument should be close to free - Playing a game of any sport should be free from cost ... ...

In the words of the Levellers -

... 'hey hey why can't you see - that there's nothing here that one might call free' ... ...

SB_UK
04-01-16, 06:52 AM
I am simply suggesting that
'material world attachment represents the root of all suffering (particularly many forms of psychiatric disease particularly stress, anxiety, depression)'
and that
material world detachment occurs through the individual actively developing a mind which has detailed discrimination between right and wrong.

The other set of non-neurological, psychiatric diseases - occur through the development of novel sensitivity mechanisms in the 3 aspects defining man.

Empathizing quality
Systematizing quality
Sensory quality

- where autism - ADHD - schizophrenia can be seen as the incapacity to handle increased informational flow through these various avenues - representing the absence of a sensori - cerebellar - motor circuit for translating input into output.

I believe that 'learning' puts in place the capacity for handling sensory input and that there's a feedback loop which allows an individual who learns - to increase the level of information that they're capable of handling ie that through learning we build informational tunnels capable of channeling increasing information.

A simple representation of this might be the child that enjoys the simple nursery rhyme when young - through simple pop music - into more sophisticated jazz or orchestral pieces as their sensori cortical -cerebellar-motoro cortical informational tunnels develop.

Or - the child that begins life tottering from side to side - and with practice may gain the poise of a ballerina.

Or - the fine motor control from playing three blind mice on the piano to some more challenging classical piece - when older.

-*-

To characterize learning as the capacity to handle ever more complex informational streams.

An adult feels pain reading a child's book - informational content is lacking.

acdc01
04-01-16, 09:08 AM
Obviousy some people are more susceptible, but the final tipping point is always trauma.

Everyone has some trauma in their life. There are plenty of people that were born and have lived the usual amount of trauma in life and yet still developed mental illness. You could clearly see my ADHD long before I had any difficulties in life at all.

If you were biologically born to be more sensitive than most and not be able to withstand the usual amount of trauma everyone else can, then that already is a biological component to your mental illness.

With ADHD, there's already plenty of evidence biology/hereditary risk plays a major factor in many of us. It actually surprises me this question pops up in a forum for people with ADHD, one of the mental illnesses most clearly influenced by biology.

I personally am all for spending more money on researching the genetics/biological component of mental illnesses over the "environmental" factors. Do you really need a study to tell you that the best environment for preventing mental illness is a happy, loving one? Well more details would be nice but I'm pretty sure we can do more researching the genetic component than the environmental one. Plus the subject matter of happiness and environment overlaps with other areas (i.e. research on child development) so there are actually more outside funding sources available for answering the happiness/environment component as compared to the biological one (I think).

acdc01
04-01-16, 09:32 AM
Below is an article that cites that rumination is the biggest predictor of depression and anxiety in a country.

It not only suggests it's a sign but suggests that thinking too much about the same thing over and over again may actually increase your chances of developing a mental illness. So yes, trauma/environment can definitely affect you but thinking about it or about anything over and over again and not being able to let go is bad in general.

It makes sense to me to. I think it's one of the reasons why ADHDers, who are genetically prone to thinking too much, are so susceptible to comorbids. So combination of genetics, environment/trauma, and your own preventative actions for dealing with the trauma.

If the article is correct, then a way to reduce your chances of comorbids would be to try to reduce the number of obsessive ruminations you have. This includes self-effacing thoughts, regrets of things you did/happened to you in the past, or even if you obsessively ruminate over a particular nihilistic topic which you can't ever change. Us ADHDers ruminate about all 3 of these things quite often.

Course if the topic you obsess over is a productive one, then it can lead to innovation. I always thought the different between a creative genius and a crazy one was that the creative focused on productive thoughts while the crazy one ruminated constantly over thoughts that don't generate applicable solutions. I'm sure that's an oversimplification and probably the use of the word crazy isn't good, but still some truth to this I think.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24444431

SB_UK
04-01-16, 11:14 AM
Below is an article that cites that rumination is the biggest predictor of depression and anxiety in a country.

It not only suggests it's a sign but suggests that thinking too much about the same thing over and over again may actually increase your chances of developing a mental illness. So yes, trauma/environment can definitely affect you but thinking about it or about anything over and over again and not being able to let go is bad in general.

It makes sense to me to. I think it's one of the reasons why ADHDers, who are genetically prone to thinking too much, are so susceptible to comorbids. So combination of genetics, environment/trauma, and your own preventative actions for dealing with the trauma.

If the article is correct, then a way to reduce your chances of comorbids would be to try to reduce the number of obsessive ruminations you have. This includes self-effacing thoughts, regrets of things you did/happened to you in the past, or even if you obsessively ruminate over a particular nihilistic topic which you can't ever change. Us ADHDers ruminate about all 3 of these things quite often.

Course if the topic you obsess over is a productive one, then it can lead to innovation. I always thought the different between a creative genius and a crazy one was that the creative focused on productive thoughts while the crazy one ruminated constantly over thoughts that don't generate applicable solutions. I'm sure that's an oversimplification and probably the use of the word crazy isn't good, but still some truth to this I think.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24444431

If an individual ruminates over and over and grows depressed because of his imminent death - then despair sets in - and it's likely that this'll prove a one way ticket to depression.

If an individual ruminates over and finds others who're capable over ruminating over practical ways of making the world better - then hope arises - and we're given a meaningful reason to live - which presumably runs alongside mental wellbeing.

Despair vs Hope

Pursue 'hope' of a better future as reward system ... and ... the reward system which fear of death, fear of losing in competition, fear of failing at school, fear of being nobody, fear of not making money, fear of not having a job with high status factor is overcome.

-*-

Thw well-known health promoting effects of placebo, belief, a mission, a deepfelt aspiration, something to live for are recruited in 'hope' - 'despair' simply recruits the desire to fall asleep and never wake up. Once gripped by despair - the desire to depart becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - that is - that the general loss of will to live hastens an individual's death.

I think that human beings operate best when unbited under some cause.
Sadly - the cause which the majority swear allegaince to are -ISMs ie require an 'enemy' to vanquish be it some other colour of skin, gender, nationality, type of food eating, football team supporting, operating system preferring, games console sporting, exercise type preferring etc etc - human beings swearing allegiance to one of multiple equivalent labels - defining their own allegiance as prefereable to anothers.

The only meaningful motivation is collective collaboration on making a better world.

Follow this ^^ motivation and not its -ISM competitor - and we'll find people enthused with life-affirming passion.

White male American beef-eating Denver Bronco supporting Windows ultra-portable X-box sporting basketball watching stereotypes clonally combine.

Why not just stamp labels on people's heads and be done with it ?

Sadly - I know many who'd proudly sport the Apple logo on their forehead.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 11:30 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24444431

The biggest study of its kind ever undertaken in the UK found that the major causes of anxiety and depression when ruminated over were (in order)

abuse -> environmental
childhood bullying -> environmental
family history -> environmental
income -> environmental
education -> environmental
relationship status -> environmental
social inclusion -> environmental

-- and so presmably there'd be no need to ruminate over these adverse environmental stressors if we eliminate exposure.

-*-

Sticking to the general idea that the only inherited component is sensitivity extent at either the sensory information, empathic information or systematizing informational levels - where ADDers sweep the board - ie display sensitivity in all -
- as indicated by my signature (http://tinyurl.com/hwdbl8n) of the last few years until the lunies of ADDF took ahold.

acdc01
04-01-16, 11:41 AM
If an individual ruminates over and finds others who're capable over ruminating over practical ways of making the world better - then hope arises.

I agree with the word practical. Otherwise, a person is ruminating over and over again over nothing which according to the article is not only a waste of time but is actually harmful. I'm not talking about pondering thoughts on occasion but when ruminating obsessively over one thing constantly is affecting your life, other people's lives, or your judgment on the subject.

Also, it feels like when one ruminates too much on a subject, they can actually lose themselves in it to the point where they can't make sound judgments on the subject anymore. It's like at work when I've stared at a particular report for too long, I can't see the errors in the report anymore and I need a second person to look at it with clear eyes.

Also, even with practical things, I think there is a limit. If you're not eating cause you're so wrapped up in trying to find a practical solution, then it is harmful.

acdc01
04-01-16, 11:44 AM
The study found traumatic life events,


abuse -> environmental
childhood bullying -> environmental
family history -> environmental
income -> environmental
education -> environmental
relationship status -> environmental
social inclusion -> environmental


were the biggest cause of anxiety and depression.

-*-

Sticking to the general idea that the only inherited component is sensitivity extent at either the sensory information, empathic information or systematizing informational levels - where ADDers swwep the board - ie sensitivity in all.

As indicated by my signature (http://tinyurl.com/hwdbl8n) of the last few years

until the lunies of ADDF took ahold.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in your last 2 paragraphs. As for the rest, I've never denied environment as a factor to mental illness so the article I quoted does not refute anything I believe. It's just not the only factor. Genetics and biology clearly play a factor as well which is quite well know with ADHD and I would guess other mental illnesses as well.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 11:49 AM
I don't understand what you're trying to say in your last 2 paragraphs. As for the rest, I've never denied environment as a factor to mental illness so the article I quoted does not refute anything I believe. It's just not the only factor. Genetics and biology clearly play a factor as well which is quite well know with ADHD and I would guess other mental illnesses as well.

I agree with the article also.

ginniebean
04-01-16, 12:08 PM
That it's disease protective to nurture a mind which is geared towards making the world better for all.
That it's disease promoting to nurture a mind which does what it's told and contributes net detriment.

(morality helps to simplify the idea though)

No contest about disease protective, that's so true. And sadly I also think it's true that we live in a world that promotes disease.

There is something immoral in that for SURE. I just feel that a lot of what you're saying is getting lost in semantic argument because of a word that trigger shame, and morality is one such word.



The development and expression of a mind structured on morality is disease protective.


You know, hmm you changed my colour I like it!, I was looking at this word morality and I couldn't find a better word but then I thought, what about 'resistance". Morality for many people does mean resistance.

Resistance to temptation.

Resistance of enjoyment

Resistance of pain

and a whole bunch of holy hoi paloi as well.

I'll dive in a bit deeper as I go on.

-*-

Under the cover what's going on.

People want to be captivated, interested, motivated by their daily lives.
You can't do this unless there's some deep sense of reward which arises from your daily life.
Reward must be felt and cannot be purchased.
We need to identify how people can access deep satisfaction or reward.
Once engaged in deeply rewarding activities - the mind is happy - not distressed - with distress underpinning disease.
The path to finding deeply rewarding activities isn't in the activity itself but in the motivation one has to engage in the activity.
Satisfying motivation arises as a mind which seeks to know morality (or to know how to and then actually does engage creativity with the intent of making things better for the collective).


I have always made a distinction between happiness and JOY! happiness is fleeting and unstable and as we are, so is joy, but I think the expression of you in life can become permanent as you suggest.

Happy is often simply the other half of sad. like a tug rope over a mud hole, one side wins or the other does but they seem intrinsically tied to each other.

People seek out happiness, novelty, often to self soothe, to avoid pain, to relieve boredom etc.. even that which makes them "happy" only does so for a brief time before the inevitable blah takes over once again which can either nose dive into pain or become a catalyst to pleasure seeking.

This 'happiness' is elusive and based on illusion. It is the avoiding of what is happening, the judging of what's happening, the escape from what's happening into something that will obscure what's happening from our attention offering a mild relief from our need to resist what is happening.

Anais Nin wrote, and I'm paraphrasing I think cause too lazy to go look up the quote; "The taste for exotic pleasures dull the taste for simpler ones"

It's always struck me as so very wise this idea. Being with ourselves in each moment is seen as BOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRING we want the glamour, the glitz, that which will propel us from the wasteland of boring into something that excites us, makes us feel momentarily vivified.

We've lost the taste for simple pleasures, we don't even often see the room we're in so lost in thoughts and mini avoidances of our actual lives. All of this avoidance and resistance to what is leaves us vulnerable. Vulnerable to unsavory influences that can sneak in while we're off elsewhere, often these sneaky buggers are ideas, entertainments of the mind. It's often an entertainment can become toxic including thought entertainment.

While we're out looking for pleasure and avoiding that which is unpleasant or painful damage gets done and the door is left wide open.

Maybe I'm using too much metaphor or vagueries to make a decent point here for you. You know I'm always willing to dive in more if you have questions or even objections.


So -
'know how to make things better for the collective' = know morality
leads to
'doing things which're better for the collective' = do morality
leads to
'satisfaction from what one does' = social reward system activation
leads to
'happy' = emotional regulation

or

A personal enquiry into morality
is an essential precursor in
Knowing how to behave morally
is an essential precursor in
Behaving morally
is an essential precursor in
Deriving deep satisfaction/reward from one's life
is an essential precursor in
Being happy
And
Healthy (since Distress - underlying all major diseases) is overcome.


NICE! I like that precurser stuff a LOT, well said.

I know what you're pointing to is what I call JOY so please don't think I'm quibbling or calling out your wording, it's always a bit fun to look into refinement ideas and I know you enjoy it as well. :)

We can fix the whole social world, get rid of it's deformities but it will not cure all disease. We live in a world that has hazard built in, a roll of the dice. The animal kingdom is savage, is not this the social world? Certainly MUCH MUCH disease can be eliminated but the roll of the dice will always be present.



-*-

Our highest emergent property is mind.
The mind is a 'thing' which is designed to achieve a rational grasp of morality.
It makes sense that we'd be diseased if we failed to use our defining characteristic incorrectly.
Which is what we do - as we grasp convoluted systems for producing within the convoluted system of economics to maintain inequality of man.


I'm going to suggest that mind is not what we think it is, there is a mind behind the mind, one that is not simply a monkey jumping about. So much of mind is simply regurgitation, conditioned response.

Real thought is of a different order and on a different scale. And, as you so often propose, simpler.

Anyway, what do you think? Resistance?

SB_UK
04-01-16, 12:08 PM
I agree with the word practical. Otherwise, a person is ruminating over and over again over nothing which according to the article is not only a waste of time but is actually harmful. I'm not talking about pondering thoughts on occasion but when ruminating obsessively over one thing constantly is affecting your life, other people's lives, or your judgment on the subject.

Also, it feels like when one ruminates too much on a subject, they can actually lose themselves in it to the point where they can't make sound judgments on the subject anymore. It's like at work when I've stared at a particular report for too long, I can't see the errors in the report anymore and I need a second person to look at it with clear eyes.

Also, even with practical things, I think there is a limit. If you're not eating cause you're so wrapped up in trying to find a practical solution, then it is harmful.

Rumination must be practical.
However - what is impractical becomes practical with 'practical' progression ie if we imagine putting in a high speed train network nationally - the impractical dream of a global high speed train netowrk will undoubtedly materialise.
ie unimaginable/impractical arise through creatively embracing the limits of what are practical.

Staring at a report - I generally find many (what I would call) errors in everything I read and lose motivation to attempt correction because of the magnitude of effort required. Make a couple of corrections to glaringly obvious mistakes - note a few irritating typos and then ditch the review in order to prevent it bringing me down.

Medical evidence appears to suggest that one of the best things that hman beings could do is stop eating - autophagy appears to be a remarkably health-promoting behaviour which the average Westerner chooses to ignore.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 12:26 PM
No contest about disease protective, that's so true. And sadly I also think it's true that we live in a world that promotes disease.

There is something immoral in that for SURE. I just feel that a lot of what you're saying is getting lost in semantic argument because of a word that trigger shame, and morality is one such word.



[i]


You know, hmm you changed my colour I like it!, I was looking at this word morality and I couldn't find a better word but then I thought, what about 'resistance". Morality for many people does mean resistance.

Resistance to temptation.

Resistance of enjoyment

Resistance of pain

and a whole bunch of holy hoi paloi as well.

I'll dive in a bit deeper as I go on.

-*-



I have always made a distinction between happiness and JOY! happiness is fleeting and unstable and as we are, so is joy, but I think the expression of you in life can become permanent as you suggest.

Happy is often simply the other half of sad. like a tug rope over a mud hole, one side wins or the other does but they seem intrinsically tied to each other.

People seek out happiness, novelty, often to self soothe, to avoid pain, to relieve boredom etc.. even that which makes them "happy" only does so for a brief time before the inevitable blah takes over once again which can either nose dive into pain or become a catalyst to pleasure seeking.

This 'happiness' is elusive and based on illusion. It is the avoiding of what is happening, the judging of what's happening, the escape from what's happening into something that will obscure what's happening from our attention offering a mild relief from our need to resist what is happening.

Anais Nin wrote, and I'm paraphrasing I think cause too lazy to go look up the quote; "The taste for exotic pleasures dull the taste for simpler ones"

It's always struck me as so very wise this idea. Being with ourselves in each moment is seen as BOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRING we want the glamour, the glitz, that which will propel us from the wasteland of boring into something that excites us, makes us feel momentarily vivified.

We've lost the taste for simple pleasures, we don't even often see the room we're in so lost in thoughts and mini avoidances of our actual lives. All of this avoidance and resistance to what is leaves us vulnerable. Vulnerable to unsavory influences that can sneak in while we're off elsewhere, often these sneaky buggers are ideas, entertainments of the mind. It's often an entertainment can become toxic including thought entertainment.

While we're out looking for pleasure and avoiding that which is unpleasant or painful damage gets done and the door is left wide open.

Maybe I'm using too much metaphor or vagueries to make a decent point here for you. You know I'm always willing to dive in more if you have questions or even objections.


[COLOR=Navy]


NICE! I like that precurser stuff a LOT, well said.

I know what you're pointing to is what I call JOY so please don't think I'm quibbling or calling out your wording, it's always a bit fun to look into refinement ideas and I know you enjoy it as well. :)

We can fix the whole social world, get rid of it's deformities but it will not cure all disease. We live in a world that has hazard built in, a roll of the dice. The animal kingdom is savage, is not this the social world? Certainly MUCH MUCH disease can be eliminated but the roll of the dice will always be present.




I'm going to suggest that mind is not what we think it is, there is a mind behind the mind, one that is not simply a monkey jumping about. So much of mind is simply regurgitation, conditioned response.

Real thought is of a different order and on a different scale. And, as you so often propose, simpler.

Anyway, what do you think? Resistance?


Definitely - I'm using happy - but joy and bliss are perhaps better choices.
Happy isn't ideal as it's part of a classic dual - sad.
Joy and Bliss aren't so much associated with opposites.
Bliss has baggage which arises through its use in religion.
Joy - what're the connotations of joy ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35mAvFY7pw

Morality vs Resistance
Struggle to see why morality isn't useful as long as it's defined as a set of logically connected and consistent directives which have collective wellbeing as the intended outcome.
Of course morality is conditional on understanding ... ... and observational data/science influences the collective logical structure of morality ... ... such that morality - alters in nature with understanding. I'd though suggest that we've reached a point over the last 100 years where the structural re-arrangements in the collective logical structure of understanding/morality have switched from gross to fine in nature.

Morality - as I'm defining it has a relationship to Aversion - which has a relationship to Resistance.

I'm using the idea of mind accumulating wisdom as the mind which overcomes the attraction to addictively alluring and individually damaging behaviours ie morality alters the individual in nature from succumbing to the allure of addictive pursuits into aversion/resistance to these very same exertions.

I think that if we push this idea further - that we might even be able to consider the shift towards aversion/resistance to addictive pursuits, representing the development of sensitivity to reward system activation ie what's happening is that the addictively activating rewarding pursuits are over-stimulating the individual - and in line with the general idea of over-stimulation resulting in pain/distress - that morality might be considered to be occurring alongside a certain definition of the terms aversion/resistance - but only and strictly to rewarding ursuits which have the capacity to turn into addictive obsessions.

ginniebean
04-01-16, 12:44 PM
I think that if we push this idea further - that we might even be able to consider the shift towards aversion/resistance to addictive pursuits, representing the development of sensitivity to reward system activation ie what's happening is that the addictively activating rewarding pursuits are over-stimulating the individual - and in line with the general idea of over-stimulation resulting in pain/distress - that morality might be considered to be occurring alongside a certain definition of the terms aversion/resistance - but only and strictly to rewarding ursuits which have the capacity to turn into addictive obsessions.


Brilliantly put! I so like that "addictively activating rewarding pursuits" I mean it's a mouthful BUT DAMN SPOT ON!

Take an hour in the sunshine watching dust motes for that one! ENJOY! Now that's wellbeing! :)

SB_UK
04-01-16, 12:46 PM
An ideal term for happy - joy - bliss -
I'd suggest might be ... ... many Eastern religions feature religious leaders which end their names in - 'ananda'

- and back around to 'bliss,joy' we come.

Belonging.
No longer feeling separate from - instead an integral and essential part of.
No desire to prove oneself.
Nowhere else where one needs to be.

I believe that the neurochemical basis to the state is similar to wikiP/speedball or a deeply pleasurable state in which a basal balance in narcotic and stimulant produced endogenously drives an internal experiential feeling which one might compare to the highly desired high of the speedball.

gamma-hydroxybutyrate appears to activate both stimulant and narcotic sides of the brain/mind and I'm deeply attracted to the idea of beta-hydroxybutyrate as the means of activating this state of bliss - in comparison to the blood glucose elevation and depression duals of pleasure (happy) and pain (sadness).

It's remarkable how such small chemical modifications can have such dramatic effects - there's deep elegance in natural science - and how it scales to give rise from no thing to a deep appreciation for beauty.

ginniebean
04-01-16, 12:50 PM
An ideal term for happy - joy - bliss -
I'd suggest might be ... ... many Eastern religions feature religious leaders which end their names in - 'ananda'

- and back around to 'bliss,joy' we come.

Belonging.
No longer feeling separate from - instead an integral and essential part of.
No desire to prove oneself.
Nowhere else where one needs to be.


Ooooo can we add in fragmentation? this is so great and I also see fragmentation as a part of this as well (no longer feeling separate from... WHOLE] One self wants one thing and another part of the self wants something else. ... indivisible.. whole, complete. :) (your mileage may vary, MY GOODNESS you're so poetic today. Must be having a good one! Inspired me for sure!

I believe that the neurochemical basis to the state is similar to wikiP/speedball or a deeply pleasurable state in which a basal balance in narcotic and stimulant produced endogenously drives an internal experiential feeling which one might compare to the highly desired high of the speedball.

gamma hydroxybutyrate appears to activate both stimulant and narcotic sides of the brain/mind and I'm deeply attracted to the idea of beta-hydroxybutyrate as the means of activating this state of bliss - in comparison to the blood glucose elevation and depression duals of pleasure (happy) and pain (sadness).

Impermanent yet perhaps gives us that peek behind the veil.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 01:02 PM
resistance
The general idea of sensitivity to dopaminergic transmission is lovely.
Since - it appears (publication elsewhere) - that reduced vesicular dopaminergic uptake - naturally occurring through reduced DA release - associates with increased neuromelanin deposition.
Stunningly unimpressed with standard medicine's theory that NM is of key use in superoxide scavenging.
NM has the same physico-hemical properties (colour) as NM in radiotrophic fungae.

I can't help but feel that the underlying basis to the reward system - since DA is the precursor to melanin (neuromelanin) - is as a biochemical pathway towards laying down something like an internal gamma radiation 'solar/lunar' panel which is to be used to 'em' power us.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 01:12 PM
Ooooo can we add in fragmentation? this is so great and I also see fragmentation as a part of this as well (no longer feeling separate from... WHOLE] One self wants one thing and another part of the self wants something else. ... indivisible.. whole, complete. :) (your mileage may vary, MY GOODNESS you're so poetic today. Must be having a good one! Inspired me for sure!

Impermanent yet perhaps gives us that peek behind the veil.

Haven't eaten for 4 days - taking valium/tramadol for pain - perhaps we're seeing the effects of offering the female archetype (GABA) a chance to have its moment in the sun.

To raise the veil of manufactured duals and to achieve synchrony with an underlying creative impulse - a place where we dissolve imprisoning partitions to leave us within a wide-open expanse where we're warm, and everything we see, hear and smell captivates our senses to the point of dissociation.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 01:20 PM
To develop sensitivity to the point that it's able to elevate the mind from worldly (see acdc01 - rumination) through dissociation into an ethereal state ?

SB_UK
04-01-16, 01:30 PM
Sensory deprivation - Dissociation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative)

Sensory sensitivity - I want this to deactivate the 'ruminating' mind - the mind which concerns itself with pointless concerns -
- however 'solving' mind accomplishes the same goal -

- running alongside development of sensory sensitivity would permit sensory immersion to dissociate ourselves from our minds.

wikiP/dissociative
Some, which are nonselective in action and affect the dopamine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative#cite_note-3) and/or opioid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative#cite_note-4) systems, may be capable of inducing euphoria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphoria).

??? gamma- hydroxybutyrate / beta-hydroxybutyrate - simultaneous activation of Glutamate (stimulant) - dopamine + GABA (narcotic) - opioid ???

-*-

Suggestion - wisdom accomplishes a reward system transition towards a novel metabolic fuel which has the same metabolic effect as observed under the intense high as described under wikiP/speedball.

So high - that people have risked and have died under the influence of this combination of drugs.

SB_UK
04-01-16, 01:50 PM
happy -> bliss -> joy -> dissociative euphoria

SB_UK
04-01-16, 02:05 PM
Euphoria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphoria

producing euphoria as a result, through increased biosynthesis of three particular neurochemicals:
[1] anandamide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandamide) (an endocannabinoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid))
[2] β-endorphin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92-endorphin) (an endogenous opioid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_opioid))
and
[3] phenethylamine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine) (a trace amine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_amine) and amphetamine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine) analog).

[1] anandamide
[2] narcotic
[3] stimulant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandamide
[1] High fat diet feeding in mice increases levels of anandamide
[2] High fat diet feeding generates ketone bodies (BHB is similar to GHB) -> GABA -> narcotic
[3] High fat diet feeding generates ketone bodies (BHB is similar to GHB) -> stimulant

3 fold-biochemical combination giving rise to a euphoric state through simply shifting from a 'growth' through acquisition of morality into a 'maintainance' metabolic profile

SB_UK
04-01-16, 02:19 PM
Euphoria

Low-carb diets, fasting and euphoria: Is there a link between ketosis and gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB)?

Brown AJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Brown%20AJ%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=17011713)

Abstract

Anecdotal evidence links the initial phase of fasting or a low-carbohydrate diet with feelings of well-being and mild euphoria. These feelings have often been attributed to ketosis, the production of ketone bodies which can replace glucose as an energy source for the brain. One of these ketone bodies, beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), is an isomer of the notorious drug of abuse, GHB (gamma-hydroxybutyrate). GHB is also of interest in relation to its potential as a treatment for alcohol and opiate dependence and [traditionally stimulant employed] narcolepsy-associated cataplexy. Here I hypothesize that, the mild euphoria often noted with fasting or low-carbohydrate diets may be due to shared actions of BHB and GHB on the brain. Specifically, I propose that BHB, like GHB, induces mild euphoria by being a weak partial agonist for GABA(B) receptors. I outline several approaches that would test the hypothesis, including receptor binding studies in cultured cells, perception studies in trained rodents, and psychometric testing and functional magnetic resonance imaging in humans. These and other studies investigating whether BHB and GHB share common effects on brain chemistry and mood are timely and warranted, especially when considering their structural similarities and the popularity of ketogenic diets and GHB as a drug of abuse.

ginniebean
04-01-16, 02:53 PM
Haven't eaten for 4 days - taking valium/tramadol for pain - perhaps we're seeing the effects of offering the female archetype (GABA) a chance to have its moment in the sun.

To raise the veil of manufactured duals and to achieve synchrony with an underlying creative impulse - a place where we dissolve imprisoning partitions to leave us within a wide-open expanse where we're warm, and everything we see, hear and smell captivates our senses to the point of dissociation.


SB, if your striving is anything to go by, and if the passion that you have cultivated is evidence, to me, you are a tree that brings forth fruit. I do not know how but I send you healing energy.


Speaking of that expanse,

"There is a field, beyond right doing and wrong doing, I shall meet you there" Rumi.

Peace

acdc01
04-01-16, 03:27 PM
I just feel that a lot of what you're saying is getting lost in semantic argument because of a word that trigger shame, and morality is one such word. ?

Ginnebean makes a good point here. If you want to continue believing what you believe SB_UK, I have no issues even though I don't agree with you.

But I do have issue when you post on this forum that people are mentally ill cause they lack morality regardless of how you've justified it to yourself on why it's ok to say that. It's like someone telling someone else they are ugly but it's ok for them to say that cause it's the truth and they can't help but be that way for so and so reasons.

It's especially wrong to say on a forum such as this where you have people who already have very low self-esteem and shame - telling them that they lack morality and that's why they are suffering. It's as bad as all those people that tell us we're suffering cause we are lazy or not trying hard enough or just because we are bad and deserve to suffer.

I'm going to drop the rumination thing. Not cause I don't believe in it but because I know we aren't really having a conversation here (your mind is completely made up). But I do have to speak up when I think you're posting something as harmful as your blaming mental illness on lack of morality.

Donny997
04-01-16, 04:08 PM
Exactly - the only additional point to make - is that if we see 'sensitivity' ie high to low sensitivity as the endogenous character - then the exact same magnitude of distressor will exert trauma in an individual who's sensitive and not in an individual who is insensitive.

So - I live in fear of fireworks - but many people seem to enjoy them.
I won't go anywhere near a roller-coaster - though many appear to like them.

Make sensitivity the inherited capacity ... sensitivity to trauma - and trauma (as you mentions) acts as the trigger - though sensitivity to trigger alters from individual to individual.

This would make for the perfect inherited component giving rise to the mistaken view of 'geneticness' in highly heritable psychiatric conditions.

Well my point was that a HSP with a healthy upbringing would just become an artist, musician, writer, film maker, teacher or something.

Donny997
04-01-16, 04:30 PM
Everyone has some trauma in their life. There are plenty of people that were born and have lived the usual amount of trauma in life and yet still developed mental illness. You could clearly see my ADHD long before I had any difficulties in life at all.

If you were biologically born to be more sensitive than most and not be able to withstand the usual amount of trauma everyone else can, then that already is a biological component to your mental illness.

True you have good points but would usual everyday "traumas" overwhelm someone who had an adequate upbringing so much that it causes mental illness?

That is, if a person had bonded with parents adequately, and learned to separate adequately and cope with all that separation anxiety healthily for example by means of emotional self-reliance and a more healthier dependence on people (all this in the early years), then getting dumped by your boyfriend/ girlfriend in high school likely isn't going to throw you in a downward spiral, because you've been there before. You've conquered separation stress when you were almost completely non-verbal. Your system develops a higher immunity to it. And you just kind of deal with it the way you learned how when you were a toddler and things didn't go your way. You pick yourself up and you count on yourself to meet new people, etc. For a normal person the breakup would obviously cause stress and maybe even pseudo mental illness... but real mental illness is a whole other beast: it's kind of under the surface throughout life, waiting to break out with the right trigger.

The reason why some people say everyone is neurotic to some degree is because yeah just normal life without all the early life traumas is tough as it is and can cause discomfort, stress, etc. So you have a point. But that is different than mental illness, at least IMO.

With ADHD, there's already plenty of evidence biology/hereditary risk plays a major factor in many of us. It actually surprises me this question pops up in a forum for people with ADHD, one of the mental illnesses most clearly influenced by biology.

I personally am all for spending more money on researching the genetics/biological component of mental illnesses over the "environmental" factors. Do you really need a study to tell you that the best environment for preventing mental illness is a happy, loving one? Well more details would be nice but I'm pretty sure we can do more researching the genetic component than the environmental one. Plus the subject matter of happiness and environment overlaps with other areas (i.e. research on child development) so there are actually more outside funding sources available for answering the happiness/environment component as compared to the biological one (I think).

I don't think ADHD is as much an upbringing thing, I was mostly referring to depressive disorders, bad anxiety, personality problems, etc.

Also, I'm not saying just a vague happy and loving environment, though that is certainly helps. But education and awareness of what a child needs is needed as well. Example: A family in Southern Europe who is very family-oriented and enmeshed moves to North America, a highly individualistic country. Psychological education helps the family to understand that in this environment, it would be in the child's best interests to have them individuate cleanly and without guilt from the typically enmeshed family, so that the child learns modes of adaptation that are common in his/her new country. An aware, selfless, educated family would do this... an unaware family would not and thus likely cause more problems for the kid down the road when her inadequately formed identity down the road leaves her at a disadvantage in an highly individualistic society.

So yeah research on the specific developmental existential needs we all have is immensely helpful, but I think we've done that for 100 years now lol.

I'm all for biology research because of it's implications for treatment. But in terms of being a major cause I'm hesitant to agree. Just my opinion.

acdc01
04-01-16, 04:51 PM
Not cause I don't believe in it but because I know we aren't really having a conversation here (your mind is completely made up). But I do have to speak up when I think you're posting something as harmful as your blaming mental illness on lack of morality.

I take back the 1st sentence here about rumination - my mind is really made up too on that subject so it's hypocritical of me to say that. I stand by my last sentence and everything else I said though. I think you've really stepped over the line in this thread.

acdc01
04-01-16, 04:56 PM
True you have good points but would usual everyday "traumas" overwhelm someone who had an adequate upbringing so much that it causes mental illness? ...

I don't think ADHD is as much an upbringing thing, I was mostly referring to depressive disorders, bad anxiety, personality problems, etc. .

I suspect a "normal" amount of trauma can turn people to mental illness even if they had an adequate upbringing but I really don't know the real answer to this question since you aren't talking about ADHD. I haven't researched other disorders as thoroughly and I myself don't have anything besides ADHD.

Interesting question.

daveddd
04-01-16, 05:02 PM
I suspect a "normal" amount of trauma can turn people to mental illness even if they had an adequate upbringing but I really don't know the real answer to this question since you aren't talking about ADHD. I haven't researched other disorders as thoroughly and I myself don't have anything besides ADHD.

Interesting question.

i think current research is looking at the possibility that environmental effects can

can extend the biological adhd symptoms into adulthood

and pile on contributing to the adult phenotype or "comorbids"

your case of no issues other than ADHD is rare and may not be applicable

daveddd
04-01-16, 05:06 PM
i believe you're correct about rumination being the cause of anxiety and depression

they may still be looking at why some are prone to rumination and others aren't

attentional bias? endegenous visceral states? failure to learn self regulation?

Donny997
04-01-16, 05:16 PM
I suspect a "normal" amount of trauma can turn people to mental illness even if they had an adequate upbringing but I really don't know the real answer to this question since you aren't talking about ADHD. I haven't researched other disorders as thoroughly and I myself don't have anything besides ADHD.

Interesting question.

Yeah I didn't read the thread my bad I thought mental illness in general. But I can still give similar arguments for ADHD, but I know less about it.

But about the abuse thing (and though it's now off-topic for you) I will say that even what you would call an adequate upbringing at first glance may not be if you look more closely. Abuse can be so subtle and in come in many forms. Smothering a person with too much love, for example, is a subtle form of abuse. You wouldn't think so. But later rejections and life experiences where the former quality of love is not forthcoming will cause confusion, stress, anxiety, etc.

Over-praising a child for her achievements and everything she does may seem not only normal, but advantageous for the kid in a western society. But when that kid's neuralsystem hardwires in such a way that she only feels good when she's being admired, then there's a problem when that admiration stops.

Developmental research is important to learn the nuances of what people need. How much should we meet the narcissistic needs of kids? How much is too much? At what point does love go from being genuine to being selfish smothering? We've made huge progress there already, but it's not like it's common knowledge or anything. I know these questions seem obvious and that most people will intuitively know how much love to give etc., but I think a lot of families are just uneducated in this area even though they mean well. And then others intuitively know better but still act selfishly.

The problem with educating families though, is that freedom comes into it. Who wants to be told how to raise your kids? Some might appreciate the education, others might find it off-puting, especially if raising their kid in their own way is the only sense of control they have in their lives. This was even more of a problem when women were more segregated in society: if they didn't have power in the workplace, at least they'd have control over their child. Being a parent entails that the child will admire you immensely, and some people can't handle this power appropriately, nor do they want to.

Donny997
04-01-16, 05:34 PM
i believe you're correct about rumination being the cause of anxiety and depression

they may still be looking at why some are prone to rumination and others aren't

attentional bias? endegenous visceral states? failure to learn self regulation?

I read somewhere that some epileptics often ruminate and become OCDish in the tasks they work on. They get so lost in the detail that they forget the bigger picture of the task.

IMO healthy cognition can go in and out of rumination (narrow focus) and big picture thinking, because both are needed. Unhealthy cognition can simply lose track of how narrow focus on a smaller task fits into the bigger picture. SO I can see how it would be present in ADD

SB_UK
04-02-16, 06:59 AM
SB, if your striving is anything to go by, and if the passion that you have cultivated is evidence, to me, you are a tree that brings forth fruit. I do not know how but I send you healing energy.


Speaking of that expanse,

"There is a field, beyond right doing and wrong doing, I shall meet you there" Rumi.

Peace


That's exactly the place.

A place which the mind can reach, beyond the manifest world of dualities (the material world illusion) - which we've desired though sadly without the capacity to interprete that desire ... ... to be.

The rational mind helps us to see through the fabricatd dualities.

It's a relief to let go of the notion of the material world as some absolute which with every passing second we find ouselvs slipping away from.

The very idea that life is similar to a movie generated by a divine projector in which we are the lead characters searching for a role as either protagonist and antagonist where -

- our role is set by simply realising (by unrelenting personal enquiry) just one thing.

That the human mind is a tool for determining right from wrong.

SB_UK
04-02-16, 07:10 AM
Ginnebean makes a good point here. If you want to continue believing what you believe SB_UK, I have no issues even though I don't agree with you.

But I do have issue when you post on this forum that people are mentally ill cause they lack morality regardless of how you've justified it to yourself on why it's ok to say that. It's like someone telling someone else they are ugly but it's ok for them to say that cause it's the truth and they can't help but be that way for so and so reasons.

It's especially wrong to say on a forum such as this where you have people who already have very low self-esteem and shame - telling them that they lack morality and that's why they are suffering. It's as bad as all those people that tell us we're suffering cause we are lazy or not trying hard enough or just because we are bad and deserve to suffer.

I'm going to drop the rumination thing. Not cause I don't believe in it but because I know we aren't really having a conversation here (your mind is completely made up). But I do have to speak up when I think you're posting something as harmful as your blaming mental illness on lack of morality.

What I'm suggesting is no more complex than the idea that if you go outside with an umbrella then you will not get wet; if you go outside without an umbrella - then you will get wet.

I believe that you may be misinterpreting what I'm suggesting - which is very possible ... ... however it would be inappropriate to suggest that another person is incorrect without prefacing the suggestion with something like ... ... 'if I understand what you're suggesting correctly then ... ... '

So - for instance, an integral part of the idea as stated above is that an individual with intrinsic morality will also suffer mental illness - which I believe contradicts what you're misattributing to the idea as presented in this thread. I'll find the line above if you need me to.

Now - try and consider how an individual who is being accused of wrongdoing through another misinterpretating their ideas should react ?

SB_UK
04-02-16, 07:15 AM
Well my point was that a HSP with a healthy upbringing would just become an artist, musician, writer, film maker, teacher or something.

All very possible - I'd suggest that a HSP within a well adjusted environment can become anything that they'd like ... also ... though with a strong emphasis on capacity to exert creativity, to improve the collective lot, towards personal mastery, in social ventures, whether collectively or in solitude ... ...

but once again - none of that is in any way surprising - as research (I'll reference if you like) suggests that in autonomy, mastery and purpose are the key motivators to the thinking mind.

SB_UK
04-02-16, 07:23 AM
TBut in terms of being a major cause I'm hesitant to agree. Just my opinion.

I believe you're in agreeement with the basic point whch the scientists featured in the article which i've referenced are making.

... ...specialists say that the true causes of depression and anxiety are from life events and environment, and research should be directed towards understanding the everyday triggers.

SB_UK
04-02-16, 07:29 AM
i think current research is looking at the possibility that environmental effects can

can extend the biological adhd symptoms into adulthood

and pile on contributing to the adult phenotype or "comorbids"

your case of no issues other than ADHD is rare and may not be applicable

Exactly.
There has been an argument that ADHD disappears with age or that it morphs into combined type.

I'd suggest that with the increasingly stressful workplace - that the distress which ADDers are exposed to within organized education - as money becomes harder to acquire and people are required to perform increasingly unleasant jobs - is maintained into later life.

Extending chronic stess recruits co-morbids.

So - I'd agree with these statements.

SB_UK
04-02-16, 07:41 AM
i believe you're correct about rumination being the cause of anxiety and depression

they may still be looking at why some are prone to rumination and others aren't

attentional bias? endegenous visceral states? failure to learn self regulation?

Watching ADD kids what I've noted is that if they cannot stimulate their minds through useful means - then their minds, through need for stimulation attempts to find stimulation through misbehaving or ruminating on distressful thoughts ie to drive neural transmission but not in what would be considered a useful way - more an intrinsic need for stimulation which'll take any avenue towards achieving appropriate activation if useful stimulation is not available.

So - in direct answer tothe question - I'd suggest that rumination on distressful thoughts is simply what one would expect of a child that has nothing positively stimulating to activate their own mind - and so to feed the mind's need for stimulation - anti-social behaviours and distressful thoughts are used to 'fill the gap'.
If the general belief that ADDers are devlopmentally delayed and so are not learning at school (school is too advanced for them) - then it's likely that we'll observe repetitive poor behaviour and rumination over emotionally charged thoughts as characteristics.

attentional bias? endegenous visceral states? failure to learn self regulation?
Attentional bias we do have - being forced to depart the theta EEG realm does leading to endogenous visceral discomfort - which when chronically experienced will undoubtedly lead to self-regulation dyfunction ... ... which would certainly give rise to the development of anti-social ideas and behaviours ... ... but I'm wondering whether what we're observing in rumination - is simply the observation that the brain is expresing a simple property of the nerve - and it requires to be used at a certain level - which represents neither too little or too much - both states leading to nerve cell deletion ?

SB_UK
04-02-16, 08:43 AM
[1]
Over-praising a child for her achievements and everything she does may seem not only normal, but advantageous for the kid in a western society. But when that kid's neuralsystem hardwires in such a way that she only feels good when she's being admired, then there's a problem when that admiration stops.
[2]
Developmental research is important to learn the nuances of what people need.
[3]
How much should we meet the narcissistic needs of kids? How much is too much?
[4]
At what point does love go from being genuine to being selfish smothering? We've made huge progress there already, but it's not like it's common knowledge or anything.
[5]
I know these questions seem obvious and that most people will intuitively know how much love to give etc., but I think a lot of families are just uneducated in this area even though they mean well. And then others intuitively know better but still act selfishly.
[6]
The problem with educating families though, is that freedom comes into it. Who wants to be told how to raise your kids? Some might appreciate the education, others might find it off-puting, especially if raising their kid in their own way is the only sense of control they have in their lives. This was even more of a problem when women were more segregated in society: if they didn't have power in the workplace, at least they'd have control over their child. Being a parent entails that the child will admire you immensely, and some people can't handle this power appropriately, nor do they want to.

Impressive points

[1]
A majorpoint I raise is of intrinsic reward vs extrinsic reward (praise,money).
The capacity to feel reward can be suppressed if the child becomes habituated to performing tasks only when somebody else congratulates them.
We're observing this in children - who're actually demanding praise for work which is far from worthy; we simply acknowlege the work and do not praise it unless it's praise-worthy - which very occasionally it is.
[2]
Recruiting appropriate observational data is useful for determining the developmental needs of an individual from conception to death ... ... but I don't think that it's as hard as the scientific community would have us believe.
[3]
Excellent - the narcissistic needs of kids is an idea which I rarely see raised - the general point I'm making is that the process of education in its broadest sense should be geared towards switching reward system activation through narcissism-associated behaviours into reward system activation through rationally social-associated behaviours.
[4]
Great point again - last time it was considered I think I mentioned the generally conflicting roles of father (encourages independence) vs mother (fosters dependence). There's generally a battle between mother and father - where I've observed that maternal dominance generates children that're incapable of looking after themselves and paternal dominance generates children that tend towards aggression/competition.
[5]
No - these questions (of appropriate care afforded by parents over children) are critical, are not generally considered by parents and are (accordingly) not handled appropriately by families - in general.
[6]
Yes - you've alluded to the idea that nobody likes being told what to do - this is true.

General solution to the problems you've rasied

(a) Generate a society in which local communities (including children) generate all of life's essentials; the child thereby gains a sense of responsibility through making a very real contribution to their own needs.
In this current world, children are made into parasitic consumers ie just sit there and eat, watch the TV and do the homework that you're set. Children are made to do what they're told; they're afforded no freedom - which is the perfect education (in docility) for what comes next where the adult is indoctrinated into obeisance within the workplace.

(b) A collaborative society will be a society in which children are free to go out when they want and return when they like - to explore for themselves - since an all-inclusive society is far less likely to breed psychopaths (societal drop-outs) characteized with anti-social tendencies including child-abuse. Current evidence does though seemto indicate that child-abuse appears to be enriched in the higher rather than the lower tiers of a hierarchical society. Flattenign of hierarchy would though eliminate the two extremities.

(c) This (co-operative) society won't place 'pass' or 'fail' labels on children - since all kids will 'pass' (ensure their own survival essentials are met) by virtue of the education which they receive in (a) - beginning from the moment that they're able to stand. To re-iterate - the key point in getting children involved with useful work is to build confidence in the child, confidence in their own constructive potential. Children are an almost unbearable burden (constant care (keep away from sweets, cakes, roads) and cost (cinemas, fun-fairs, sports training, musical training are unaffordable) involved) to parents in a society which embraces capitalism.

(d) Giving a child personal responsibility at such an early age will feed-back on itself and tend the chld towards wanting more independence (male archetype) but this will only occur within context of a socially supportive (female archetype) environment - since novel skills can't be acquired without some (often very little is required) teaching from others. I can't change the rear cassette on a bike, build a shed or put down paving - though i know that they're all trivial exercises.

(e) With tendency towards desiring increasing personal independence and access to supportive teachers in activities which the child is motivated to learn ... ... the child becomes better at his chosen endeavours and as s/he masters the fundamentals - can speread their wings into more sophisticated, novel practices which further enrich their lives.

-*-

So - and simply - a different (social,sustainable) collective environment neatly circumvents the need for rules to determine appropriate mode of interaction between parent and child. Appropriate interaction occurs simply by virtue.

There's a sequential tendency towards responsibility, independence, self-confidence, mastery, personal quality, self-esteem, equality, fraternity, morality, sustainability, wisdom, liberty and belonging which occurs.

SB_UK
04-02-16, 08:55 AM
I read somewhere that some epileptics often ruminate and become OCDish in the tasks they work on. They get so lost in the detail that they forget the bigger picture of the task.

IMO healthy cognition can go in and out of rumination (narrow focus) and big picture thinking, because both are needed. Unhealthy cognition can simply lose track of how narrow focus on a smaller task fits into the bigger picture. SO I can see how it would be present in ADD

I'm observing (in an ADD-I child) an incredible tendency towards routine.
I believe that this is a feature of autism also.
Was recently speaking to a dog owner - and they also explained that their dog became sick if their routines are disrupted - the example she gave was post-divorce - the dog shifting with the kids from partner to partner on a weekly basis - and the dog becoming sick through change.

Contrast this against a basic rule in society - which appears to measure an individual's interest by the amount of things that they do.

An individual who engages in routine is considered boring.
An individual who is constantly trying new things is considered interesting.

I could easily argue that the individual who is happy following the same routine is stronger than the individual who requires constant 'stimulation' to keep them entertained.

Epilepsy - ruminate/OCD-ish - without knowing anything about this - it appears from the standard pro-GABA principle in treating epilepsy and the effects of stimulation (glutamate) in triggering epileptic attacks - that the epileptic is tending towards a low stimulation environment in order to prevent the onset of an epileptic episode.

eg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10963757
The anticonvulsant, lamotrigine decreases spontaneous glutamate release but increases spontaneous GABA release ... ...

SB_UK
04-02-16, 08:56 AM
... ...


Thanks for your last set of posts - very insightful.

SB_UK
04-02-16, 09:58 AM
Summarising this thread

There's an awful problem with issues with the brain - particularly in the mechanism of differentiating and treating neurological and psychiatric disorders.

There is no doubt that evolutionary emergence has occurred in the following order.

'Cell' (to body) -> Physical disorders
'Nerve' (to brain) -> Neurological disorders
'Mind' -> Psychiatric disorders

The general rule of evolution is that we superimpose subsequent abstraction layers (evolutionary emergent properties) only after precursor abstraction layers have ended ie we don't build the 3rd floor of tower block until the 2nd floor has been put in place.

The current highest level represents the current evolutionary challenge.

So - failure to complete the challenge of mind results in psychiatric disorders
-> results in neurological disorders
-> results in physical disorders

The question then becomes what is the evolutionary challenge of mind - so we can rise to the challenge - complete what is expected and move on.

The evolutionary challenge of mind - as a species is to grasp the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'.

Once we've a collective model of morality governing human behaviour.

The next evolutionary task becomes to develop personal quality.

-*-

None of this is particularly hard; human beings simply make it hard through one simple flaw in human operation.

Human beings have used mind to develop systems which allow the individual to obtain reward from acting selfishly.
I call this the 'take' reward system.

Human beings are supposed to have developed systems which allow the individual to obtain reward from acting in the group's best interests.
I call this the 'give' reward system.

The simplest way to foster the 'give' reward system and to eliminate the 'take' reward system is simply to realise that education at every level (from school, TV, to everyday life, after school activities etc) ... ... is to develop a mind which is capable from telling the difference between right and wrong.

That's all there is to it.

-*-

So - why is the development of this particular form of mind essential to another form (the systematizing mind) which we're very fond of.
The complex, innovating mind which generates sophisticated tools for our general benefit.

What the 'social' mind does - is it guides the 'systematizing' mind towards worthwhile applications and it impels individuals to work together towards reaching goals which're collectively designated as worthwhile.

-*-

It seems such a shame that we have great minds working on the exact same applications for Windows, Apple, Google, Sun and Ubuntu ... ... imagine how much better a system we might have if there were simply 1 infrastructure.
Therein lies the wonderful benefits of HTML.

It'd be great - since updates wouldn't destroy apps.
We wouldn't have to constantly switch apps when they're no longer supported.
We wouldn't have to waste time getting divergent systems (which're doing pretty much the same thing) to communicate.

Bit like the world of cars - I can't even tell the difference between most of them - and yet they've all been built using proprietary parts.

Human beings are wasteful - propelled by the rules of economics which gain their power over human behaviour by virtue of the closeness of fit between the lesser (the primitive or placeholder reward system of man) - 'to take' which occupies 'pride' of place over human operation until morality sweeps aside 'take' for 'give' through (see Ginniebean's excellent comment) - the development of sensitivity to dopaminergic transmission ie the shift from desiring ever increasing to ever decreasing dopaminergic transmission.

-*-

This entire story is approaching closed.

The story which is about to open though - is of the experimentally validated observation that dopamine which is not incorporated into vesicles iis polymerized into neuromelanin.
Naturally sensitivity to dopamine (ie reduced dopamiergic transmission) occurs with the general progress which I'm describing of sensitivity through acquisition of intrinisc morality (to be read as the individual developing a mind which has the capacity to tell right from wrong).

The role of neuromelanin - I'd strongly suggest - is set to provide a mechanism by which human beings can harvest ionizing radiation as energy source.

This is an interesting idea.

I believe the trigger for it will be a magnetic polar shift, which explains away the pattern of global warming we're currently observing - and which will presumably - as the planet's electromagnetic field reverses - leave us with a period of unprotected gamma irradiation which could flick the switch which allows 'human photosynthesis' to come alive.

SB_UK
04-02-16, 10:31 AM
To close off this thread

... ... with respect to the entire basis to all human suffering

All that an individual is required to do is to educate their mind into knowing the difference between right and wrong,

And that's really all that there is to know.


Mental illness mostly caused by life events not genetics [epigenetics or neural defect], argue psychologists

SB_UK
04-02-16, 11:42 AM
So - the general problem I have here is that there's little mre to say beyond making the general point that the following sequential transition not only resolves all of man's problems - but it also introduces a novel state of mind which'll bring with it an altered series of allegiances which're hard to second guess without actually being there.

collective education (in morality)

->- giving rise to ->-

dopaminergic reward system transition (from 'take' ->- 'give')

->- pre-empting an evolutionary emergent event ->-

activating human photosynthesis (acetate polymerization by fatty acid synthesis into subcutaneous storage)


On balance - I'd tnd to suggest that emergence of mind is far more impressive than emergence of human photosynthesis - though there appears to be a relationship between the two properties in that the mind elevates man from material world attachment (consumption, consumerism) and human photosynthesis appears to contribute the biochemical means by which this underying desire is manifest.

-*-

Struggling to find any other experimental observations required to add necessary detail onto this idea.

Every observational data-point that I've encountered from the nature of reality pre-Big Bang through extra-Universal space into the Theory of Everything and Grand Unification - through the multiple interim evolutionary levels which lie between the emergence of the initial emergent Universal phenomenological construct (Planck time) into the currently ongoing phenomenological construct of the nature of 'quality'.

There's now nowhere to go - just wait.

ginniebean
04-02-16, 03:26 PM
That's exactly the place.

A place which the mind can reach, beyond the manifest world of dualities (the material world illusion) - which we've desired though sadly without the capacity to interprete that desire ... ... to be.

The rational mind helps us to see through the fabricatd dualities.

It's a relief to let go of the notion of the material world as some absolute which with every passing second we find ouselvs slipping away from.

The very idea that life is similar to a movie generated by a divine projector in which we are the lead characters searching for a role as either protagonist and antagonist where -

- our role is set by simply realising (by unrelenting personal enquiry) just one thing.

That the human mind is a tool for determining right from wrong.




When I dip my toes into the waters of manifestation there are ripples, sometimes waves.

I've often thought of this, I as creator of my dualistic experience. It's always seemed to me that wisdom is knowing when to enter the water and when not to. I've done harm, I've been harmed and it is caused by this lack of intelligence of which intrinsic morality is the result.

Does that make any sense? I am mentally ill after all.