View Full Version : Learning to Trust Other--What Is This Kind of Work?


Noitartst
03-31-16, 02:32 AM
Look at the two staircases:
http://www.theseeker.org/learning/nlbm/self/behavior/anger/fig22a.gifhttp://www.theseeker.org/learning/nlbm/self/behavior/anger/fig22b.gif
(from The Seeker (dot) org -- New Life Behavior Int.)

Ultimately, I've been suffering from an inability to trust others, and it has led to isolation. Previously, I highlighted fear, but in this case, rather than boiling it down to an emotion, it boils down to a belief.

Looking over the stages of grief (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8o12WV6SkXk/UaZK93YkynI/AAAAAAAAAPg/goODqS2k1Pg/s1600/grief-model.png), I see that before I fell into apathy, which froze the process, I was caught between the stages of anger, and bargaining. I could, and can, accept the reality of my family being wrong, but that was not encouraged, leading to stalemate.

Ultimately, it all led back to my inability to trust neither myself, nor others, which I am now working on. I have been striving towards this, but never saw it mapped out on the stairs, before.

How to I get on the right staircase, anyhow, and how do I find someone that can help me with this kinda work?

Unmanagable
03-31-16, 08:19 AM
I found I was buried and hidden under a huge steaming pile of shame and guilt for most of my life through familial expectations, societal expectations, work expectations, self-imposed expectations, ingrained traditions, etc.

Stuck in a loop of repetitive rejection of self and others, mainly based on tragic experiences created by others and beyond my control, and it has taken a whole lifetime, thus far, and an entire village of "helpers" to aid in me finding my way out from under it.

Most of which, initially, were mainly serving as very clear examples of what not to do more so than actually helping me along healthily in any fashion.

Unfortunately, they were the only ones my insurance would accept and cover, so I was stuck in the vicious cycle of simply trying to find someone who I felt was taking me seriously and listening thoroughly vs. just throwing another prescription at me (which I found very hard to tolerate due to being so sensitive to the side effects) and dismissing me while suggesting I simply try another....and another....and another.

Initially, my village started with a couple psychiatrists and more than I can count on one hand of therapists and counselors.

Things progressively started getting much worse until one of them finally noticed and treated me for adhd, then I was able to reach a level of functioning that allowed me to finally connect the rest of the dots within and realize the severe effects that ptsd had also played in my life, but was totally ignored by ALL of the above professionals. Grrrrrrrrrr That still infuriates me.

Then I found:

-an amazing nutritionist who also offered the neuroptimal brand of neurofeedback via a bartering scene, and she had experienced some pretty incredible results personally and professionally, as did I after trying it, as well as being educated on how my body actually digests and absorbs real food vs. toxic food-like substances, beverages, etc. - I was eating and drinking myself into deeper levels of dis-ease and using products that were disrupting the f*** out of my hormones

=an acupuncturist who had treated several friends quite successfully with very challenging issues, who also barters - helped greatly reduce physical pains that had been diagnosed as incurable and not easily treated fibromyalgia and osteoarthritis - energy is some amazing stuff and learning how to read it and harness it within self rocked my world

-a massage therapist who doesn't barter, but the others who do make it more affordable to see her - also helped greatly in managing pain and improved fascia flow (which I was totally unaware of until I met these folks)

-a chiropractor who practices the Gonstead technique (much gentler than a typical chiro) also barters and has worked complete wonders in getting and keeping things in alignment, which greatly helps in the overall flow

-an iridologist, who is also a dear friend, who read and interpreted my level of health via my eyes (and was scarily f'n accurate w/o knowing beforehand what all I've dealt with), who is also a fruitarian, who turned me on to the mucusless diet healing system that totally flipped my bodily script and afforded me the best health I've yet to experience in my almost 49 years of existence - prior to my gall bladder ER scare, though, I had thought she was a bit "out there" in her suggested fasting methods, etc., and was likely going to starve herself to death (a good example of judging before learning more specifics and truly knowing via experience)

-self......my true self that had been buried and hiding all those years in my attempts to achieve what I thought I must and to please everyone I thought I was obligated to please simply by existing

Prior to everything in my life falling apart five-ish or so years ago, I had absolutely no trust in the types of care I listed above that eventually improved the quality of my life.

However, seeds had been planted along the way by others who had fully trusted in those things and experienced great relief. I'm forever grateful for the seed planters.

Otherwise, I'd likely still be quickly dismissing them all based simply on not knowing any better because of how I was raised, or because of a few google searches that would convince me without diving any deeper.

Most people in my life dismissed them all because they weren't readily accepted in the medical and scientific communities they frequented, and I received much harsh and critical judgement and dismissal from some.

It feels so incredibly good to have found the methods that work best for me AND to prove the naysayers wrong simply by finding and living my own unique flavors of healthiness day in and day out. My energy is much better spent nowadays.

Bartering made it all possible in my world. Seeking ways to get out from under the incredibly toxic employment situation that ultimately caused my nervous break-through, and made me realize I wasn't functioning nearly as well as I'd been led to believe through the years, created the opportunities and forced momentum to finally be able to try it all out.

Noitartst
04-01-16, 01:28 AM
So-- "bartering" is the term you use for trust? Me, there are a lot of things I'd like to do if I could trust others. Is "barter" a formal psychological term, for you?

I can commit to certain things, and ask certain things in return. Specifically, I would like to write, and have others promote me. I can commit to, and perform, a certain degree of quality, if I can trust other to help me spread what I'm saying. If I could trust others to help me make working prototypes of my drawings, I'd be willing to work harder.

Question is, how do I get there? If I wrote a book, who could I trust to get it to an audience? What I really need is someone in my life who can help me find people that will help me with my goals, that I can trust. I'm physically healthy, but I feel like a cripple, saying this.

ginniebean
04-01-16, 01:47 AM
Well, barter is a form of exchange that does not involve money. Trade of services.

As for finding someone you can trust to do really hard legwork on an adhd forum, not sure I'd trust that.

Perhaps researching literary marketing would help you to know what to look for so when discussing it with any potential person or candidate you would have some level of trust in yourself to know the difference between **** and shinola?

Noitartst
04-02-16, 09:45 PM
Trust is a real issue. I think that I can tell a moog from the real deal, however. Look in literary circles...I think I can do so, but it'll be rough.

acdc01
04-03-16, 12:12 PM
When you say trust, are you saying that you're afraid they'll rip you off financially somehow or that they won't be able to do a good job for you?

When it comes to trusting someone in terms of if they can do a good job, you should really have them present to your their experience and successes. If they've got good credentials, you should recognize it and then give them a chance just knowing your fears are unfounded as they haven't even messed up for you yet. I remember reading someone else post about not fighting the fear but seeing it for what it is and just letting that irrational fear wash over you as if you're just observing it from afar.

If the person has bad creds though, don't get involved with them to begin with. There are people that aren't deserving of trust.

Financially, you have to make sure the contracts for your work agreements protect you. I'm not a business person so I'm not exactly sure what that entails (you'd have to do research or hire a lawyer). I can give an example though. Like if you start a website, who owns the website - a partnership company that's under both your names? Or you could have a contract that just agrees to pay a certain amount to them (either as a percent profit or fixed dollar amount) on a website that you own.

Did you ever become a youtube or google ad partner for your website and youtube channel? That can be your second step to your dreams (you've already created both so have taken the first step).

Noitartst
04-06-16, 02:37 AM
With my family, I'm afraid they're not paying attention to what i say, or want.

acdc01
04-06-16, 07:47 AM
With my family, I'm afraid they're not paying attention to what i say, or want.

Sorry, i misunderstood you question.

I don't really know your family. If you look at them from a 3rd person perspective, are they trustworthy?

I have to ask it not cause I distrust your family but there are a lot of messed up families here and us ADHDers do sometimes have relatives that are hard to trust.

Can't tell if the lack of trust is about you (which it very well could be), the family, or both.

KarmanMonkey
04-06-16, 02:59 PM
Trust is a tricky issue. There are benefits and costs both in trusting or not trusting a person.

A few observations:

Trust is not all or nothing. I trust my brother to look after my son, but I don't trust him to be on time for anything, or as being a good person to get support for my mental health. I could trust a friend of mine with anything, including things that would scare or cause unpleasant reactions in others, but I'd never trust her with my credit cards.

Don't let anyone tell you who you need to trust. Trust needs to be earned, and on your terms. You're the one who takes the risk when you trust someone, so you have to be the one to make that choice.

It's okay to not trust until you learn how to build trust safely. Putting your trust in the wrong person is, in my opinion, generally more destructive than trusting noone.

You can still have a relationship without trust, as long as you're able to be clear with your expectations. For example, my psychiatrist holds a lot of power, so I don't trust him with certain aspects of my mental health, but I'm honest with him to the best of my ability because I know that's the route to the best care. I can work with colleagues and clients I don't trust; I just do so being prepared for the possibility that they will do precicely the last thing I'd want them to.

Build trust gradually. Test people with small things. Share a minor secret and see if they blab. Loan them $2 for a coffee, and see if they pay it back. Borrow $2 for a coffee and see if they are decent about it. Talk about a subject (e.g. ADD) in general terms before you talk about how it pertains to you.

Little Missy
04-06-16, 07:07 PM
There is a big difference between Need and Want.

sarahsweets
04-07-16, 02:27 AM
trust involves allowing yourself to be vulnerable and being willing to accept that you may still get hurt. But its the times that you are vulnerable and dont get hurt that helps you to build trust.

Noitartst
04-17-16, 12:54 AM
Trust is a tricky issue. There are benefits and costs both in trusting or not trusting a person.

A few observations:

Trust is not all or nothing. I trust my brother to look after my son, but I don't trust him to be on time for anything, or as being a good person to get support for my mental health. I could trust a friend of mine with anything, including things that would scare or cause unpleasant reactions in others, but I'd never trust her with my credit cards.

Don't let anyone tell you who you need to trust. Trust needs to be earned, and on your terms. You're the one who takes the risk when you trust someone, so you have to be the one to make that choice.

It's okay to not trust until you learn how to build trust safely. Putting your trust in the wrong person is, in my opinion, generally more destructive than trusting noone.

You can still have a relationship without trust, as long as you're able to be clear with your expectations. For example, my psychiatrist holds a lot of power, so I don't trust him with certain aspects of my mental health, but I'm honest with him to the best of my ability because I know that's the route to the best care. I can work with colleagues and clients I don't trust; I just do so being prepared for the possibility that they will do precicely the last thing I'd want them to.

Build trust gradually. Test people with small things. Share a minor secret and see if they blab. Loan them $2 for a coffee, and see if they pay it back. Borrow $2 for a coffee and see if they are decent about it. Talk about a subject (e.g. ADD) in general terms before you talk about how it pertains to you.

Well, I think I'm making progress emotionally, at least; I want to confront my family, and that desire making me calmer, and happier, which is a good sign; I'm be freer with the outcome, I think.

by the way, why do you not trust your psychiatrist because he's "powerful"? What has that to do with trust, save as far as fear goes?

trust involves allowing yourself to be vulnerable and being willing to accept that you may still get hurt. But its the times that you are vulnerable and dont get hurt that helps you to build trust.
Indeed; I recognize that paradox. Right now, I'm gonna confront my family, and hit with all I have.

dvdnvwls
04-17-16, 04:58 AM
If I wrote a book, who could I trust to get it to an audience?

An established and well-known publishing company?

It's perhaps a sad thing to say, or at least disappointing, but you need to know that getting your work in front of an audience is primarily about winning a popularity contest, and not about being good at writing or about having something worthwhile to say. If the established publishers aren't interested, it's because they know the business and they know what will sell.

If your aim is to sell your writing, then you'll need to write whatever the publishers think is going to sell. If your aim is to say something specific in writing that you already have in mind, then just go write it down and the job is done.

Making a friend who is already successful in the book publishing business is one of the best ways I can think of to increase your chances.

hythlodaeus
04-17-16, 08:11 AM
"How to I get on the right staircase, anyhow, and how do I find someone that can help me with this kinda work?"

Hey man, well, for one thing you can talk to people on this group. I can empathize with what you're describing. I had a lot of trust for people with a few trust issues but then got completely betrayed by key people in my life. Now I'm rebuilding my confidence but it's work. Good news is that you have the opportunity to have stronger trust because you will understand it better. Instead of thinking about how easy trust is to destroy, you can understand what it takes to build and maintain trust. (How old are you BTW?)

But you can find people to help, but it's difficult. You have to put yourself out there and be ready for a lot of rejection but in the end you will build a close circle of friends who you can trust and who trust you. You will help each other and also laugh a lot and have fun too as you realize that these folks are people who know you and your flaws and care anyway.

Anyway, reply back if you want - I'm new to this forum. I got on here because I recently realized I'm ADHD or something (got diagnosed but don't really trust those diagnosis) and my three boys have trouble. I just recently became a grandpa too.

dvdnvwls
04-17-16, 11:33 AM
About trust itself -

We all depend heavily on other people for our survival and our quality of life. Even if we think we don't, we still do. (Think of the people with a "survivalist" mentality, and look carefully at how much they depend on others for supplies and support of various kinds.) Part of learning to trust is learning to face the truth of the matter - that our daily lives depend on support from other people, and that those other people depend on us in the same way.

If Robinson Crusoe had been truly alone, he would have died soon - and anyway, the story would have been boring. :)

Noitartst
04-22-16, 12:43 AM
"How to I get on the right staircase, anyhow, and how do I find someone that can help me with this kinda work?"

Hey man, well, for one thing you can talk to people on this group. I can empathize with what you're describing. I had a lot of trust for people with a few trust issues but then got completely betrayed by key people in my life. Now I'm rebuilding my confidence but it's work. Good news is that you have the opportunity to have stronger trust because you will understand it better. Instead of thinking about how easy trust is to destroy, you can understand what it takes to build and maintain trust. (How old are you BTW?)

But you can find people to help, but it's difficult. You have to put yourself out there and be ready for a lot of rejection but in the end you will build a close circle of friends who you can trust and who trust you. You will help each other and also laugh a lot and have fun too as you realize that these folks are people who know you and your flaws and care anyway.

Anyway, reply back if you want - I'm new to this forum. I got on here because I recently realized I'm ADHD or something (got diagnosed but don't really trust those diagnosis) and my three boys have trouble. I just recently became a grandpa too.

Well, I'm trying to regain, emotional drive, because I'm feeling flat, emotionally; I don't know if you can relate particularly or not to that, but such is where I am. I'm prepared to make sacrifices for others, or I think I am.

I'm 37, but I want to confront my mother; we live in the same town, and I want to be a part of the family, but I don't understand give and take, or haven't. When it comes to gaining, and developing trust, what do I do?

Partly, I want so little. I've not taken much initiative, and on top, I haven't much motivation; I'm trying to see if there's any way to grow it. As a result, I'm focusing on my anger, and using that to assert myself, and carve out ownership in my family workings.

Kinda rambling, but such is where I'm at.

About trust itself -

We all depend heavily on other people for our survival and our quality of life. Even if we think we don't, we still do. (Think of the people with a "survivalist" mentality, and look carefully at how much they depend on others for supplies and support of various kinds.) Part of learning to trust is learning to face the truth of the matter - that our daily lives depend on support from other people, and that those other people depend on us in the same way.

If Robinson Crusoe had been truly alone, he would have died soon - and anyway, the story would have been boring. :)

A re you a shrink of some kind?

BellaVita
04-22-16, 03:08 AM
:grouphug:

I'm sorry you are struggling to trust. Is it from your family members breaking your trust? Treating you poorly?

I too went through a time where it was hard for me to trust.

Do you have good people in your life?

Trust is important. It is important because if you trust the right person - your life becomes a better place. It gives freedom to you, because, you don't have to worry, you don't have to think this person will betray you - you have a quiet trust within your soul.

There are no in-betweens with trust. If there is any doubt, then it's no longer called trust.

That's why trusting completely is important.

I'm struggling to understand though, are you speaking about people in general? Or do you mean toward a significant other?

dvdnvwls
04-22-16, 08:47 AM
Are you a shrink of some kind?

No, nothing like that. Just a person who knows that nobody is independent, even if they sometimes like to pretend.

sarahsweets
04-22-16, 08:54 AM
I'm 37, but I want to confront my mother; we live in the same town, and I want to be a part of the family, but I don't understand give and take, or haven't. When it comes to gaining, and developing trust, what do I do?


What situation are you in regarding your mother, if you dont mind me asking?

KarmanMonkey
04-22-16, 10:23 AM
Well, I think I'm making progress emotionally, at least; I want to confront my family, and that desire making me calmer, and happier, which is a good sign; I'm be freer with the outcome, I think.

by the way, why do you not trust your psychiatrist because he's "powerful"? What has that to do with trust, save as far as fear goes?

The more influence a person has over your life, the greater the consequences for misplacing your trust.

For example, if the things your parents say can have a huge impact on your emotional wellbeing, everything you choose to share with them carries a risk that they will respond in a way that deeply hurts you.

In the case of a psychiatrist, there are certain things people can say that can result in a range of things, including losing some of your rights and freedoms. If I say something that he interprets as a significant suicide risk, he can pluck me from my life and into a psyc unit for assessment. If I say something that he interprets as an inability to manage my finances, he can take away my access, and give complete control of my money to someone I've never met, who my wife would then have to apply to take over. If I say something that suggests I'm unaware of the consequences of my treatment choices, I can suddenly find myself legally unable to decide my course of treatment.

There are times when such steps are necessary, but that's why it's so important for me to build trust with him gradually. I need to know him well enough to phrase things in a way that he'll understand, and I need him to know me well enough to understand the context of what I tell him. Opening up too quickly with "sure, I sometimes still think about what method I might use if I decide to die" would land me in a psyc unit before I could blink if he didn't get that I currently have no desire to die, and those thoughts are often simply random stream of consciousness stuff or an attempt to better empathize with a person I'm supporting.

KarmanMonkey
04-22-16, 10:27 AM
No, nothing like that. Just a person who knows that nobody is independent, even if they sometimes like to pretend.

These days I really don't get why independence is preached as being a high virtue. I was brought up with those beliefs that we need to be independent, and it caused me no end of hardship in my life.

To people who feel that independence is a great thing, I ask why?

I take a look at any person in this world who is wildly successful, and do they make any decision or do any task without making use of all the support around them?

Do you think Bill Gates does his own grocery shopping? Does Obama make any decision without getting input from a multitude of experts? Does Donald Trump do his own taxes?

We still need to steer our own ship; be self-determined individuals, but it's a rare thing in life to be able to succeed without help from others.

dvdnvwls
04-22-16, 04:41 PM
... it's a rare thing in life to be able to succeed without help from others.

I wouldn't say it's rare - instead, I'd say it's a nonexistent fantasy. Sometimes the help is more obvious or more hidden, but the help from others is always there.

Noitartst
04-22-16, 08:18 PM
Addressing you all, who have kindly replied, I wish to say that my bigger issue, rather than trust, I motivation. I know that to escape apathy, I must care, and anger is the quickest route, and also, part of my issues involve taking responsibiility for myself.

In other words, I need to be a) picking fights, and b) working out mutual relationships. I'm cuurently unemployed, and living in a trailer, basically. She's offered to drive me to church, and I've been invited to family gatherings.

Basically, I want to talk about my reasons for anger at her, but she wants to deflect, saying it is in the past, for which she has a point. On the other hand, I need to get a grip on the visceral, somewhere, and family seems where I'm rawest.

As a result, I need to frame my confront her over principle, instead of being embittered over past grievances. Trouble is, she won't engage my reasons, and if not, I'd relike to attack the various shrinks and counselors who basically encouraged apathy because they couldn't honor my anger, acknowledge I had disrespected authority.

Instead of bearing witness to my mother I had reason for anger, they kept saying I needed to "forgive." If they had said so while honoring I had reason for anger, that would have been better, but they couldn't.

Basically if I ask a question, and you resist, you're wrong; you're a gutless coward, like my mother is. In the future, anyone that fights my frame, instead of engaging, is an abject dog, like she is.

I had a duty to hold my mother accountable, but no one recognized this. Frustrating.

Hopefully this explains what I want from my family in the future, even if they resist--be honest, consistent, and non-hypocritical.

dvdnvwls
04-22-16, 11:39 PM
Wanting others to change is futile. Always. Forget expecting others to ever change; they just aren't going to do it. Even though you're right, that doesn't mean they're going to change.

There is an exception, but it doesn't happen very often, and it succeeds even less often: If the other person actually wants to change in just the way you were hoping, they might be able to do it. Too often, however, they might try as hard as they can and ultimately fail. There is certainly never a guarantee that anyone could do that - it's no more than a possibility, really.

When you completely give up on the idea of ever successfully changing anyone else, then you can begin.

sarahsweets
04-23-16, 08:25 AM
In other words, I need to be a) picking fights, and b) working out mutual relationships. I'm cuurently unemployed, and living in a trailer, basically. She's offered to drive me to church, and I've been invited to family gatherings.
Believe it or not this can be related to adhd. The stimulation that picking a fight can sometimes rival that of taking meds. What I mean is we seek out stimulation in unhealthy ways sometimes to self medicate in a way.


specifcally, I want to talk about my reasons for anger at her, but she wants to deflect, saying it is in the past, for which she has a point. On the other hand, I need to get a grip on the visceral, somewhere, and family seems where I'm rawest.

As a result, I need to frame my confront her over principle, instead of being embittered over past grievances. Trouble is, she won't engage my reasons, and if not, I'd relike to attack the various shrinks and counselors who basically encouraged apathy because they couldn't honor my anger, acknowledge I had disrespected authority.

I urge you to consider therapy before going near this subject or taking this on. You need a plan,clarity and to organize your thoughts. I know you used the word 'confront' but if you look at it this way you will not get what you need. What is the end result that you want? Respect? Love? Inclusion? You will not get this with confrontation.

Instead of bearing witness to my mother I had reason for anger, they kept saying I needed to "forgive." If they had said so while honoring I had reason for anger, that would have been better, but they couldn't.

They are entitled to want forgiveness as are you. Both sides are hurting and its important to acknowledge that.

Basically if I ask a question, and you resist, you're wrong; you're a gutless coward, like my mother is. In the future, anyone that fights my frame, instead of engaging, is an abject dog, like she is.

I dont understand this, Do you mean all people? Resisting what?

I had a duty to hold my mother accountable, but no one recognized this. Frustrating.

Duty?

dvdnvwls
04-23-16, 11:31 AM
Basically if I ask a question, and you resist, you're wrong; you're a gutless coward, like my mother is. In the future, anyone that fights my frame, instead of engaging, is an abject dog, like she is.

I dont understand this, Do you mean all people? Resisting what?

I think he means that truth trumps human nature.

It doesn't. Just because you are right, doesn't mean you get to win.

You can't get the "human factor" out of your interactions. You can't ever deal with "just the straight truth, no personalities" - the personalities are always involved, and you can't separate them out no matter how hard you try.

KarmanMonkey
04-27-16, 10:21 AM
Addressing you all, who have kindly replied, I wish to say that my bigger issue, rather than trust, I motivation. I know that to escape apathy, I must care, and anger is the quickest route, and also, part of my issues involve taking responsibiility for myself.

In other words, I need to be a) picking fights, and b) working out mutual relationships. I'm cuurently unemployed, and living in a trailer, basically. She's offered to drive me to church, and I've been invited to family gatherings.

Basically, I want to talk about my reasons for anger at her, but she wants to deflect, saying it is in the past, for which she has a point. On the other hand, I need to get a grip on the visceral, somewhere, and family seems where I'm rawest.

As a result, I need to frame my confront her over principle, instead of being embittered over past grievances. Trouble is, she won't engage my reasons, and if not, I'd relike to attack the various shrinks and counselors who basically encouraged apathy because they couldn't honor my anger, acknowledge I had disrespected authority.

Instead of bearing witness to my mother I had reason for anger, they kept saying I needed to "forgive." If they had said so while honoring I had reason for anger, that would have been better, but they couldn't.

Basically if I ask a question, and you resist, you're wrong; you're a gutless coward, like my mother is. In the future, anyone that fights my frame, instead of engaging, is an abject dog, like she is.

I had a duty to hold my mother accountable, but no one recognized this. Frustrating.

Hopefully this explains what I want from my family in the future, even if they resist--be honest, consistent, and non-hypocritical.

People are so afraid of certain emotions, labelling them as negative. Anger is a good example.

Sure, anger can cause problems if it reaches the heights that start to turn off our rational thought. At the same time, that anger is a legitimate feeling and it's your insides telling you that something is not okay.

As far as something being in the past, or your forgiving anyone... That's up to you to decide. If something is in the past, it can still haunt the present. If you forgive someone too early, it can come at the expense of self-respect or even self-preservation.

Some actions, in my book, are unforgivable. In my case, eventually I let go of my anger toward them, and in that sense I guess I sometimes forgive in the context that I know that most people do the best they can based on what they know; that most hurt is caused out of poor assumptions, misinformation or plain old ignorance. Most people are not malicious.

The one caveat, though, is that before I let go of that anger, I make a conscious choice about what consequences come of the event that made me angry. How is that going to affect the relationship? What steps do they and/or I need to go in order to repair any fractures? What do I need to do in order to protect myself from being hurt in a similar way in the future?

Most, if not all anger I feel comes from a place of hurt. Anger is often our way of coping with hurt, as well as driving us to take steps to protect ourselves.

sarahsweets
04-28-16, 05:02 AM
Forgiving is often a confusing action. What I mean is, some people think the only way to move on from hurt is to forgive someone. Others think forgiving means that what the person did is ok. Others think that forgiving makes them weak or takes away the meaning of what happened. Others refuse to move on without forgiveness.
For me, I believe you do not always have to forgive someone. There are such things as the unforgivable. But its what you choose to do to bring peace in your life and move on that counts. If someone did something so horrible to you your first instinct may not be to forgive them, but for me, trying to see why they did what they did or at least what led up to it helps me move forward. I have forgiven everyone and everything that I believe ever hurt me, and that took work. The only reason I did that was for me, the act of holding a grudge and hating and feeling anger and bitterness was dangerous for me. It gave me reasons to do certain things and act a certain way that were not healthy for me. Some of the huge stuff in my life I did not forget. Forgiving doesnt mean forgetting.
And there is no rule that says you have to forgive but its in your best interest to try to do everything you can to move on. Whether that means forgiving, acknowledging, or whatever, it helps free yourself and make room for the good stuff. Not everyone will agree with this, this is just what works for me.

KarmanMonkey
04-28-16, 08:26 AM
Forgiving is often a confusing action. What I mean is, some people think the only way to move on from hurt is to forgive someone. Others think forgiving means that what the person did is ok. Others think that forgiving makes them weak or takes away the meaning of what happened. Others refuse to move on without forgiveness.
For me, I believe you do not always have to forgive someone. There are such things as the unforgivable. But its what you choose to do to bring peace in your life and move on that counts. If someone did something so horrible to you your first instinct may not be to forgive them, but for me, trying to see why they did what they did or at least what led up to it helps me move forward. I have forgiven everyone and everything that I believe ever hurt me, and that took work. The only reason I did that was for me, the act of holding a grudge and hating and feeling anger and bitterness was dangerous for me. It gave me reasons to do certain things and act a certain way that were not healthy for me. Some of the huge stuff in my life I did not forget. Forgiving doesnt mean forgetting.
And there is no rule that says you have to forgive but its in your best interest to try to do everything you can to move on. Whether that means forgiving, acknowledging, or whatever, it helps free yourself and make room for the good stuff. Not everyone will agree with this, this is just what works for me.

:goodpost:

Very well said, Sarah! For me, if I'm going to truly forgive someone, I need the person to demonstrate that they recognize the wrong they did, have taken steps to try and repair that harm, and have made changes to ensure there is never a repeat. Even then, it's my choice whether or not I forgive them.

If I understand why they acted a certain way, that usually helps me let go of some of that anger toward them and to leave the hurt behind, but that alone does not "fix" things. Regardless of a person's reason for acting, they still need to be accountable for the harm they cause. Good intentions and ignorance do not remove accountability.

I like the idea of separating healing from forgiveness. It's necessary to find ways to heal, to step away from that pain and anger. It's not at all necessary to forgive the person, especially if such forgiveness could put you in a position to be hurt the same way again.

As I said in my earlier post, trust has to be earned. I've been hurt before by things my brother has said with respect to mental health. I've healed from that hurt, but he hasn't changed, so I made the choice for the sake of all the good in our relationship, to move past it, but I also now distance myself in certain ways so his stupid *** comments don't affect me (and largely there's an unspoken agreement that it's not a good topic of discussion) I haven't forgiven him, really, because he still is unable to see how his beliefs and statements are harmful. I have been able to move past it though.

Noitartst
06-12-16, 02:24 AM
Wanting others to change is futile. Always. Forget expecting others to ever change; they just aren't going to do it. Even though you're right, that doesn't mean they're going to change.

There is an exception, but it doesn't happen very often, and it succeeds even less often: If the other person actually wants to change in just the way you were hoping, they might be able to do it. Too often, however, they might try as hard as they can and ultimately fail. There is certainly never a guarantee that anyone could do that - it's no more than a possibility, really.

When you completely give up on the idea of ever successfully changing anyone else, then you can begin.

Well, in that case, if I can't change them, then I can at least satisfy myself in having discredited publicly them, and their noxious ideas. I function best in attacking something; I need to attack, and I'm looking for support instead of criticism.

When people say "forgive," I hear "your family's right, and you're wrong." As a result, I can't trust anyone asking me to forgive, because they're alienating me from the get-go.

Anyone asking me to forgive had blame better be prepared to admit my family is a bunch of dog liars, because I can't see how someone can avoid that conclusion. If you think I'll ever trust someone who thinks lies and betrayal are okay, well, I'm sorry--that won't earn me any trust, whatsoever.

We can start by making a statement of shared beliefs. No, I can't change my mother, but we can at least agree that she is a gutless hypocrite.

When people say she's "good," then they're actually saying I should reengage, instead of disengage, and that's been slow suicide.

Believe it or not this can be related to adhd. The stimulation that picking a fight can sometimes rival that of taking meds. What I mean is we seek out stimulation in unhealthy ways sometimes to self medicate in a way.



I urge you to consider therapy before going near this subject or taking this on. You need a plan,clarity and to organize your thoughts. I know you used the word 'confront' but if you look at it this way you will not get what you need. What is the end result that you want? Respect? Love? Inclusion? You will not get this with confrontation.


They are entitled to want forgiveness as are you. Both sides are hurting and its important to acknowledge that.


I don't understand this, Do you mean all people? Resisting what?


Duty?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, basically.

As to therapy, yes; my plan is have proxies confront my family, and validate my contempt and anger, if nothing else; will I change them? Not likely; even so, that's what I most wanna do, at the moment.

Is that control? Well, having others validate me is a statement individuality, and credibiility. Vengeful or not, I'm right, and it changes nothing. I'm not denying reality, even if she is.

I think he means that truth trumps human nature.

It doesn't. Just because you are right, doesn't mean you get to win.

You can't get the "human factor" out of your interactions. You can't ever deal with "just the straight truth, no personalities" - the personalities are always involved, and you can't separate them out no matter how hard you try.

Well, if others were willing to acknowledge my POV, I think I'd be more willing to admit the views of others. Why should I go out of my way like I did for my mother, if she's just gonna disrespect my effort?

I'm sick of lectures, folks; I you wanna get somewhere with me, show solidarity with my anger, why don't ya? I'm reestablishing boundaries, and if I'm letting of my mother, I'm not letting go of my values; she was, she is, and that is weak, pathetic, and cowardly; those who wish to make common cause with me had better be prepared to be vulnerable to my Dionsysian maulings, unlike she.

My wounds are faithful, so be prepared.

People are so afraid of certain emotions, labelling them as negative. Anger is a good example.

Sure, anger can cause problems if it reaches the heights that start to turn off our rational thought. At the same time, that anger is a legitimate feeling and it's your insides telling you that something is not okay.

As far as something being in the past, or your forgiving anyone... That's up to you to decide. If something is in the past, it can still haunt the present. If you forgive someone too early, it can come at the expense of self-respect or even self-preservation.

Some actions, in my book, are unforgivable. In my case, eventually I let go of my anger toward them, and in that sense I guess I sometimes forgive in the context that I know that most people do the best they can based on what they know; that most hurt is caused out of poor assumptions, misinformation or plain old ignorance. Most people are not malicious.

The one caveat, though, is that before I let go of that anger, I make a conscious choice about what consequences come of the event that made me angry. How is that going to affect the relationship? What steps do they and/or I need to go in order to repair any fractures? What do I need to do in order to protect myself from being hurt in a similar way in the future?

Most, if not all anger I feel comes from a place of hurt. Anger is often our way of coping with hurt, as well as driving us to take steps to protect ourselves.

Indeed; you're making great sense, you know? I'm trying to treat anger as a tool, and all I've gotten is discouragement from using it; I'm looking for concrete goals to maim.

I have a legal right to control, from a certain perspective, and I want that at least acknowledged; to have it not recognized, is insulting. Do I expect it to be recognized by my family? Not really, but it's a start. Respect for where I am right is a good start, if nothing else.

KNowing I've got others to watch my back is reassuring, if nothing else. I have integrity, and if that means being extremely literal, so be it. I have integrity, and I'm sick of being despised for the best of myself.

I have plan for revenge and validation to put it odiously, for the guilt trippers. At the best, I'm going to work on other goals, but it'll start from assert my boundaries, and knocking infringers backwards.


Karman, It's been a privilege.

Forgiving is often a confusing action. What I mean is, some people think the only way to move on from hurt is to forgive someone. Others think forgiving means that what the person did is ok.


I do, myself; if others were smart, they'd be assuring me this was not the case. I keep waiting for the "Your mother is utterly wrong, Philip, but I don't hear it and it's made me uneasy. I'm looking for solidarity; if we can agree what she did was wrong, then we can start to reset boundaries with her, but the shrinks never show solidarity with me, and thus we go in circles.

Others think that forgiving makes them weak or takes away the meaning of what happened. Others refuse to move on without forgiveness.
For me, I believe you do not always have to forgive someone. There are such things as the unforgivable. But its what you choose to do to bring peace in your life and move on that counts. If someone did something so horrible to you your first instinct may not be to forgive them, but for me, trying to see why they did what they did or at least what led up to it helps me move forward. I have forgiven everyone and everything that I believe ever hurt me, and that took work. The only reason I did that was for me, the act of holding a grudge and hating and feeling anger and bitterness was dangerous for me. It gave me reasons to do certain things and act a certain way that were not healthy for me. Some of the huge stuff in my life I did not forget. Forgiving doesnt mean forgetting.
And there is no rule that says you have to forgive but its in your best interest to try to do everything you can to move on. Whether that means forgiving, acknowledging, or whatever, it helps free yourself and make room for the good stuff. Not everyone will agree with this, this is just what works for me.

Look; I think I function with a chip on my shoulder, and to show solidarity with me is to show solidarity with that chip, and together find goals to scourge.

:goodpost:

Very well said, Sarah! For me, if I'm going to truly forgive someone, I need the person to demonstrate that they recognize the wrong they did, have taken steps to try and repair that harm, and have made changes to ensure there is never a repeat. Even then, it's my choice whether or not I forgive them.

If I understand why they acted a certain way, that usually helps me let go of some of that anger toward them and to leave the hurt behind, but that alone does not "fix" things. Regardless of a person's reason for acting, they still need to be accountable for the harm they cause. Good intentions and ignorance do not remove accountability.

I like the idea of separating healing from forgiveness. It's necessary to find ways to heal, to step away from that pain and anger. It's not at all necessary to forgive the person, especially if such forgiveness could put you in a position to be hurt the same way again.

As I said in my earlier post, trust has to be earned. I've been hurt before by things my brother has said with respect to mental health. I've healed from that hurt, but he hasn't changed, so I made the choice for the sake of all the good in our relationship, to move past it, but I also now distance myself in certain ways so his stupid *** comments don't affect me (and largely there's an unspoken agreement that it's not a good topic of discussion) I haven't forgiven him, really, because he still is unable to see how his beliefs and statements are harmful. I have been able to move past it though.

I don't think shrinks empathize with my anger; me, I intend to use Scripture as my whip hand, and shrinks a my witness, to confront my family, validating the fairness of what I'm doing. DO I think thay'll accept? Likely, no, but if I can accept myself better, respect myself better, who cares? TO show my family they are wrong is near an absolute victory for me, at this point, and I'll take it.

That is what working with others means, and if that shrink can't do it, that shrink's just another pansy refusing to help me stand up for myself. Scripture gives me a measure of control over my mother, and I intend to utilize it to the full.

peripatetic
06-12-16, 03:29 AM
Perhaps the hesitation to validate you with respect to your mum being a lying hypocrite is a function of not knowing what she did that makes you say that. ???

I'm not sure, but I do appreciate that it could be hard for you to say what she did before you know you won't be dismissed, even though saying is what might lead many to validate.

Well, I don't know what she did, but clearly it was something pretty awful for you to be so upset (and having one's own mother be a lying hypocrite fits the "pretty awful" description, certainly). And, since I don't know and you're here and looking for support, I see no reason not to extend support. If you say she's those things, I believe you. I have no reason not to.

I'm sorry you've had to endure such betrayal by someone who is supposed to do better. I am not a proponent of actual violence, but I do think it's better to feel something rather than bottle it up and better to talk openly about it than deny it. I wish you well in getting this sorted.

Noitartst
06-12-16, 07:14 PM
Perhaps the hesitation to validate you with respect to your mum being a lying hypocrite is a function of not knowing what she did that makes you say that. ???

I'm not sure, but I do appreciate that it could be hard for you to say what she did before you know you won't be dismissed, even though saying is what might lead many to validate.

Well, I don't know what she did, but clearly it was something pretty awful for you to be so upset (and having one's own mother be a lying hypocrite fits the "pretty awful" description, certainly). And, since I don't know and you're here and looking for support, I see no reason not to extend support. If you say she's those things, I believe you. I have no reason not to.

I'm sorry you've had to endure such betrayal by someone who is supposed to do better. I am not a proponent of actual violence, but I do think it's better to feel something rather than bottle it up and better to talk openly about it than deny it. I wish you well in getting this sorted.

Well, I guess to really lay it on the table would involve explaining how we were raised, which won't be easy, given forum rules. She was, per our upbringing, a fundamentalist on certain tenets, and raised us on them.

After my father died, she becam leader of the household, but was poor at it, always screaming, and acting frustrated; as eldest son, I didn't simply feel bad, but I felt responsible, and basically tried to be her enforcer, to someone that was erratic, and emotional, when giving directives.

I tried being the good son, the loyal son; I focused on schoolwork to the point of burnout, and just became a wreck by degrees.

As my mother sank into menopausal depression, I was sinking into anxiety disorder, which would, over time, morph into something along the line of panic attacks.

Basically, I was trying to form some sort of working relationship with my mother, but it was dysfunctional, from the word "go." In the end, I think my relationship with my family was taking a distinctly downward turn. I was learning to distrust my mother, my siblings, in particular Chris, and would, in time, ultimately come to distrust myself.

Oh--and did I mention that we had a very intense sibling rivalry with lots of physical violence?

Add to that, values: We were taught to be devout, and at that time, in particular, had chosen to be well, The Devoutest of the Devout, and yes, it was in part out of a kind solidarity with my mother, even if she didn't reciprocate.

Okay, here I am, nearly fifteen, siitin' in the back seat of my car, playing the the "shut up" game: "You shut up, no you shut up, no you..."

Now my mother had broken us up before, but this time, she had done so in an angry commanding way, that she had never done, before. She was feeling stressed, I was feeling stressed; I chose to key off her, instead of just going back to dealing with Chris on "shut up" like I usually did, I instead chose to make it a Hill to Die On.

Was it wise? Hindsight wouldn't suggest it, but I was trying to take a stand. In time it became basically more isolating, and more infuriating that he didn't listen, and I just became obsessive on the topic.

Controlling? Can I see myself as controlling, given how I acted? I think so.

That said, can you see the integrity, too? I hope you can; I'm not perfect, but don't think I didn't care about either my mother, or my brother; controlling or not, I will not, and do not apologize for asserting authority I have no doubt to possess.

I care about integrity, and when talking about forgiveness I've always seen it as taking responsibility for one's misdeeds; for you, it is not the same thing.
If forgiving is letting go, then we are letting go of what, mon frere?

Outcomes? I can do that--I can let go of them, but at the same time, I fight for principle, and don't think for a moment I doubt it. Fight with me, and earn trust--full stop.

To make common cause with me is to make common cause with my convictions, with which I can be far more flexible at first blush.

I can relate with, and the like, to a lot of people, on a lot of grounds--you say I'm hidebound, but I say, "Let's just see if you can catch up."

peripatetic
06-12-16, 07:24 PM
well, i'm glad i chose to believe you before you shared, because i certainly do even more so now.

i'm sorry that happened to you. i would be furious and it's hard to forgive when someone has never really acknowledged wrongdoing.

i can see you place high value on integrity, and i think that's a good thing. it's unfortunate more people don't.

i didn't for a second suspect you of being a skinhead. i assumed you were someone who got screwed over pretty hard by people growing up. i'm glad you're not a skinhead though :)

wow. it's a lot to take in and i can only imagine how much it is to have lived. i can see why you want to put a stop to it and stand up for yourself and live as your own person. \

i may have more to write later, but thank you for sharing. i appreciate it and hope others can see why you would be more interested in tapping into your anger than your forgiveness. i'm sure you have the capacity for both, but i'm equally unsure they're both warranted given what you endured.

Noitartst
06-13-16, 12:53 AM
well, i'm glad i chose to believe you before you shared, because i certainly do even more so now.

i'm sorry that happened to you. i would be furious and it's hard to forgive when someone has never really acknowledged wrongdoing.

i can see you place high value on integrity, and i think that's a good thing. it's unfortunate more people don't.

i didn't for a second suspect you of being a skinhead. i assumed you were someone who got screwed over pretty hard by people growing up. i'm glad you're not a skinhead though :)

wow. it's a lot to take in and i can only imagine how much it is to have lived. i can see why you want to put a stop to it and stand up for yourself and live as your own person. \

i may have more to write later, but thank you for sharing. i appreciate it and hope others can see why you would be more interested in tapping into your anger than your forgiveness. i'm sure you have the capacity for both, but i'm equally unsure they're both warranted given what you endured.

My socio-political views reflect my efforts to square a mess of contradictions, and have shocked more than one because of them.

As to whatI've endured, the sense of misunderstanding, alienation, and isolation is the worst. Look--the big thing is, I really want to be able to trust others, to be able to be on the same page.

I want to say, "Look--keep your word, show respect for why I confront you, instead of writing me off as bitter to justify evasion, and let's work together." It's really hard to feel camaraderie with those you doubt respect you.

Going forward with my family, or anyone, I simply want to be appreciated for what I was trying to do, back in 1993; I'm older, wiser, but my essential purpose remains. If this explains it finally, then after over ten years, I've been understood as something other than "vengeful."

Too me, living under my own banner just means asserting the truth with at least some modicum of support some place, and and cushioning from rejection.

Oh.. and mother isn't that awful...the anger from a sense of powerlessness to communicate; Jellen Keller was plenty smart, but being deaf and blind, she sure didn't show it, and wound up throwing perpetual tantrums.

I can relate.

peripatetic
06-13-16, 01:07 AM
the sense of misunderstanding, alienation, and isolation is the worst.

i can relate to that statement more than i'm willing to explain here and now. but, i do think i understand what you're saying even if the circumstances that led to me feeling misunderstood, alienated, and isolated are different. certainly, that sums up a portion of my history and aspects of my life in general.

i have enormous respect for you putting yourself out there by posting about your circumstances and making an effort to find support. being truthful and consistent is also deserving of respect.

ultimately, i hope you find you have support here. you do have my support and i doubt mine alone.

Noitartst
06-13-16, 03:31 PM
What I need are validators in my personal life, in the areas I care most about, because I don't feel respected, or validated.

peripatetic
06-13-16, 04:03 PM
What I need are validators in my personal life, in the areas I care most about, because I don't feel respected, or validated.

that makes sense. i think a lot of people try to find support online in hopes of ultimately finding it off. i can see it going either way really. but in person validation as a goal makes sense, for sure.

Noitartst
06-13-16, 06:09 PM
Okay; I've told by administrators that this thread has been moved to the "debates" area, to discuss religion freer, but I don't see this thread as having moved at all.

I any case, I'm gonna see my case manager tomorrow, at BHR, and share with her what I've shared with you.

acdc01
06-14-16, 09:01 AM
Okay; I've told by administrators that this thread has been moved to the "debates" area, to discuss religion freer, but I don't see this thread as having moved at all.

I any case, I'm gonna see my case manager tomorrow, at BHR, and share with her what I've shared with you.

It was your other thread that got moved. Can't remember the name of it.

Good luck with your case manager.

Noitartst
06-14-16, 10:53 PM
Well, this is the one sought moved not the other one, but oh well.

I saw my shrink, and and was unable to form a partnership going forward, once again; my efforts to form a shared goal and timeline to escape apathy have spun for naught. Again.

I need to find a goal I care about, but that has been once again I need to focus on it. I that's why i want to systematically confront.

Principle: I have have authority to confront others with if-so-then authority.

To those who have resisted my authority, I can confront with the help of others. It does not help, though, that I've had little help doing so.

I need to create new goals, which I want to achieve, and they are about finally getting away from my family.

I'm tired of feeling insecure, and uninterested, in waking up in the morning; it needs to stop, and now I'm rambling.

Man, I need a focus; I tried blogging, and lost focus. I need greater people involvement, but right now, I'm as emotionally flat as the Great Salt Lake.

Look; if my family genuinely wants to talk about things, then good--if not, fine, but things need to begin. This is burning me up inside, and that is the issue.

What would be a good game plan to achieve my goals, within a matter of months? Shared beliefs, and preparedness to walk away...

I'm seeking traction, that's why.

Alone...

Noitartst
06-15-16, 12:22 AM
How do I do what I want to do in a way that others can support, and for the record, what is my aim?

Noitartst
06-16-16, 09:03 PM
Hello? Anyone still following this thread? Didn't think anything had happened to it...

KarmanMonkey
06-17-16, 01:00 PM
From reading your posts, I get the impression that you're living in a very black and white world right now. Finding validation will likely involve finding the grey.

I saw a couple recommendations for therapy among the replies, and it might be helpful both in finding a way to feel confident and validated without needing to seek it from others. Personally I decide for myself what my course of action will be, and while it's helpful to have people share my perspective, it's not necessary.

A lot of the world and the way it works is open to interpretation. For me, validation is about being heard and respected. It's not about being right, or having others agree with me. I can disagree with my wife on something and still hear and respect what she has to say. We can have opposing viewpoints without it being a problem because we hold respect for one another.

Every person sees the world differently, and if we expect people to respect our points of view, we need to try accepting others, even if we don't agree with them. If we are dismissive of a person's views, even if they're abhorrent, it often closes them off from listening or being willing to accept the possibility of change. By accepting that people may have reasons for seeing things the way they do, you can start to move away from "fighting", and "confronting" and move toward "discussing" and "debating"