View Full Version : Procrastination as self regulation failure


ginniebean
03-31-16, 03:55 PM
Procrastination is such a generic term, it tells us very little except the common idea that we're wasting time. This really isn't all that helpful. I found this article for those who are interested in the neuropsychology of procrastination.









A recent study in the Journal of Clinical and Experimental Neuropsychology is the first to investigate subcomponents of self-reported executive function related to academic procrastination (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/procrastination). In my opinion, this is one of the best recent papers in terms of reviewing the literature and moving forward our understanding (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/empathy) of procrastination as a form of self-regulation (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/self-control) failure.
Laura Rabin (link is external) (http://www.brooklyn.cuny.edu/pub/Faculty_Details5.jsp?faculty=359), Joshua Fogel (link is external) (http://www.brooklyn.cuny.edu/pub/Faculty_Details5.jsp?faculty=365) and Katherine Nutter-Upham (Brooklyn College of the City University of New York) conducted ground-breaking research with their study relating executive function to procrastination. Their focus is well placed - procrastination as self-regulation failure. They write, "Procrastination is increasingly recognized as involving a failure in self-regulation such that procrastinators, relative to non-procrastinators, may have a reduced ability to resist social temptations, pleasurable activities, and immediate rewards when the benefits of academic preparation are distant. . .These individuals also fail to make efficient use of internal and external cues to determine when to initiate, maintain, and terminate goal-directed actions" (p. 345).
The characteristics the authors summarize that are associated with procrastination are numerous:


Reduced agency
Disorganization
Poor impulse and emotional control
Poor planning and goal setting
Reduced use of meta-cognitive skills
Distractibility
Poor task persistence
Time and task management[/URL] deficiencies

This reveals a common underlying self-regulatory system commonly referred to as "executive function" and associated primarily with the pre-frontal cortex.

from [url=http://www.printfriendly.com/print/?source=homepage&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychologytoday.com%2Fblog%2 Fdont-delay%2F201106%2Fneuropsychological-perspective-procrastination]A Neuropsychological Perspective on Procrastination (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/leadership)

Fortune
03-31-16, 06:57 PM
Procrastination is a severe problem for me.

This article is great, thanks for posting it. :)

mildadhd
04-01-16, 01:07 AM
Executive functions rely on a number of cortical and subcortical brain regions including prefrontal cortices, anterior cingulated gyrus, basal ganglia and diencephalic structures, cerebellum, deep white matter tracks, and parietal lobes areas. These brain areas are richly interconnected and are also linked with many additional regions that together subserve virtually all cognitive processes . . .

During early life, experiences that stimulate certain lower pre-executive emotional brain processes promote maturity of higher executive cognitive brain processes. As we mature, higher executive cognitive brain processes learn to self-regulate lower pre-executive emotional brain processes.








V

ginniebean
04-01-16, 01:34 AM
During early life, experiences that stimulate certain lower pre-executive emotional brain processes promote maturity of higher executive cognitive brain processes. As we mature, higher executive cognitive brain processes learn to self-regulate lower pre-executive emotional brain processes.








V
Well, that is a possibility. I'm not sure I'm fully understanding you but wouldn't this mean that procrastination would diminish as people age?

ginniebean
04-01-16, 01:36 AM
Procrastination is a severe problem for me.

This article is great, thanks for posting it. :)

I've found a very good article about help for procrastination as well, not sure if I should post it in here or as it's on topic for searching sake.

mildadhd
04-01-16, 01:44 AM
To me, procrastination is a battle between my slightly more mature lower pre-executive emotional brain processes and my slightly immature higher executive (self-regulation) cognitive brain processes.










U

mildadhd
04-01-16, 01:55 AM
Well, that is a possibility. I'm not sure I'm fully understanding you but wouldn't this mean that procrastination would diminish as people age?

The critical period of emotional-self-regulation occurs during the first few years of life. Rate and amount of development decline dramatically after the first few years of life. That is why most people who have ADHD, have had symptoms of ADHD before the age of 7.


Environmental influences on development of emotional-self-regulation occur the most during the early critical period of development. Environmental influences on development of emotional-self-regulation also decline after the early critical period of development. That is another reason why many people who have ADHD, have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 7.



m

ginniebean
04-01-16, 02:47 AM
The critical period of emotional-self-regulation occurs during the first few years of life. Rate and amount of development decline dramatically after the first few years of life. That is why most people who have ADHD, have had symptoms of ADHD before the age of 7.

Welk, my interest in putting this topic up has several reasons. The first and foremost reason is so that the adults, or parents herre can have information that helps themselves or their children see that procrastination is not laziness and needs to be approached as a symptom.

It's been my experience that the damage done to individuals with adhd thru moralizing symptoms ruins lives.

Secondly, it is my experience that knowledge is power and by understanding the various mechanisms work arounds can be found that will help people minimize procrastination constructively.

Both of these aims are a hope to ease emotional self abuse. There is too much of it.

Q

mildadhd
04-01-16, 03:03 AM
Welk, my interest in putting this topic up has several reasons. The first and foremost reason is so that the adults, or parents herre can have information that helps themselves or their children see that procrastination is not laziness and needs to be approached as a symptom.

It's been my experience that the damage done to individuals with adhd thru moralizing symptoms ruins lives.

Secondly, it is my experience that knowledge is power and by understanding the various mechanisms work arounds can be found that will help people minimize procrastination constructively.

Both of these aims are a hope to ease emotional self abuse. There is too much of it.

Q


Everything I have posted in this thread has been to promote awareness of origin, treatment, and lessening of ADHD related procrastination in mind.





T

Fortune
04-01-16, 03:19 AM
I've found a very good article about help for procrastination as well, not sure if I should post it in here or as it's on topic for searching sake.

If you're not sure about posting the link you can post the information necessary to search for it via google, bing, etc. I'd love to see the article.

1000koni
04-01-16, 09:47 AM
i liked the thread and the article. As to procrastination as the failure of self-regulation. Hmm, probably or of course. Though I have the view that much of the ADD behaviors are related to a diminished sense of self-, self care, self awareness, and and overreaction to external events, situations, relationships, that I am not centered in something intrinsic (self / life) .. Curiously, I had no problem understanding the article, but the recommendations are a bit too foreign, ie train students how to shield one intention from a competing intention. So I opened the link, and realize I don't quite get it, how this applies, how could I make it apply, to get it to "stick"? Maybe I have so many compensating behaviours that this is irrelevant?

ginniebean
04-01-16, 11:09 AM
i liked the thread and the article. As to procrastination as the failure of self-regulation. Hmm, probably or of course. Though I have the view that much of the ADD behaviors are related to a diminished sense of self-, self care, self awareness, and and overreaction to external events, situations, relationships, that I am not centered in something intrinsic (self / life) .. Curiously, I had no problem understanding the article, but the recommendations are a bit too foreign, ie train students how to shield one intention from a competing intention. So I opened the link, and realize I don't quite get it, how this applies, how could I make it apply, to get it to "stick"? Maybe I have so many compensating behaviours that this is irrelevant?

A diminished sense of self certainly plays a role and possibly a big one. Problem is we can't know how much. What I do know is that with enough information we can see our symptoms in our selves, determine for ourselves that which is involuntary and then design strategies that work for us

When it comes to procrastination strategies they are ai hit and miss and tend to be overly optimistic and generally no accounting for executive failure is mentioned. Executive failure does need to be brought to the forefront because there are tons of mini theories about the role psychology plays and an abundance of opinion. For people with adhd, each one is different, each one needs to discover the components of how adhd effects executive failure in them.

You make good points, thank you!

ginniebean
04-01-16, 11:37 AM
If you're not sure about posting the link you can post the information necessary to search for it via google, bing, etc. I'd love to see the article.


I decided to post it as a seperate topic :) Hope you enjoy it.

daveddd
04-01-16, 09:58 PM
yea, i think barkley calls it activating , maybe initiating a problem with emotional regulation that is often overlooked

i think on one side its regulating negative emotion to do a task you don't want to

and activating positive emotion with no immediate reward for others

daveddd
04-01-16, 10:06 PM
yea, we need that impending deadline to kick our buts


https://books.google.com/books?id=AeIdAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA58&dq=thomas+brown+adhd+activating&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDtIzh7e7LAhVE5yYKHeE_CY0Q6AEINzAD#v=on epage&q=thomas%20brown%20adhd%20activating&f=false

ginniebean
04-02-16, 03:30 PM
Will read that link dave! Thanks!

Fortune
04-02-16, 04:28 PM
Deadlines were literally how I got all my work done.

daveddd
04-02-16, 04:39 PM
Deadlines were literally how I got all my work done.

yea, i can kick it into a super gear right before a deadline

ginniebean
04-02-16, 04:47 PM
Deadlines were literally how I got all my work done.

Yeah, same here. I've read that for many with adhd being put on anti anxiety meds was great for lessening anxiety but tanked their productivity which makes sense with emotional activation. No fear... can't get anything done.

ginniebean
04-02-16, 06:38 PM
How common is procrastination?

20% of adults can experience chronic procrastination in day-to-day tasks (Hammer & Ferrari, 2002).
70-95% of students can experience problematic procrastination (Steel, 2007).
20-30% of these students experience chronic or severe procrastination (McCown & Johnson, 1991).


These stats may explain why a lot of university students think they have adhd.

Possible causes of Procrastination

Low levels of self-regulation (Steel, 2007).
Failure to self-regulate in stressful and high cognitive load situations (Ferrari, 2001).
Low use of metacognitive and cognitive learning strategies (Howell & Watson, 2007).
Disorganisation (Howell & Watson, 2007).
Self-efficacy for self-regulation (Klassen et al., 2008).


The heavy cognitive load that students are subjected to may push them past their own threshold of self regulation, or past the skills they have in order to self regulate. And likely a bit of both.

Fortune
04-02-16, 07:18 PM
Now see, in college I pretty much never procrastinate. I get everything done ASAP, usually because the work is stimulating and interesting.

K-12 I found school very difficult and had problems in addition to procrastination.

daveddd
04-02-16, 07:21 PM
Now see, in college I pretty much never procrastinate. I get everything done ASAP, usually because the work is stimulating and interesting.

K-12 I found school very difficult and had problems in addition to procrastination.

As in psychology and billiards , Fs in literally everything else , till they kicked me out

Fortune
04-02-16, 07:25 PM
As in psychology and billiards , Fs in literally everything else , till they kicked me out

A's in everything until I burned out and couldn't continue.

daveddd
04-02-16, 07:32 PM
A's in everything until I burned out and couldn't continue.

yea, those were stimulating classes to me like you mentioned for you

I'm sure i added to me early burnout with overdoing some college behaviors

ginniebean
04-02-16, 08:17 PM
Apparently it gets worse over time in university. Basically, burnout is the issue.

Cyllya
04-02-16, 09:31 PM
Thanks for posting. The findings seem kind of obvious, but it's good they check obvious stuff instead of just assuming. Unfortunately, it adds to the whole idea of people who procrastinate just being all around irresponsible in general, which is a bummer, but maybe true in general.

I couldn't figure out from reading, was it common for all (or most) of the procrastinators to be bad at all nine EF subscales? Or just that all nine problems were present in the procrastinators as a group? It sounded like the former, but I wasn't sure. I wonder this because I have huge procrastination problems, but I think I'm actually pretty good in five of the subscales. Of the others, Working Memory and especially Initiate are the biggest problems.

In fact, the Initiate sample question in that article might as well have been "Do you procrastinate?" :eyebrow:

I feel like EF problems really compound on each other. I don't even want to imagine someone having as much problems as I do on "initiate" with all nine areas. I feel like you'd hardly be able to survive.

Okay, I'm making this hypothesis: Most people have all of their EF abilities at about the same level, and some people are better at it than others. ADHD knocks a couple of EF areas down to really bad levels, but not all of them. It'll be different for each person. So ADHD people executive function will be a mix of okay and horrible while the procrastinators in that article were mostly non-ADHD people who were a little bit bad at everything.

daveddd
04-02-16, 11:59 PM
"Unfortunately, it adds to the whole idea of people who procrastinate just being all around irresponsible in general, which is a bummer, but maybe true in general."

i got the opposite from it

aeon
04-03-16, 12:02 AM
I never procrastinate.

I always get right into with complete and total enthusiasm whatever interests me in the moment. ;)

I donít put things off.

I simply reschedule and re-prioritize on a moment-to-moment basis. :)

Iím adaptable. :cool:

If something falls by the wayside, what can I say? I was busy with other things.

And I havenít the time to be bothered with clocks or other such concerns. :p


Cheers,
Ian

daveddd
04-03-16, 12:03 AM
I never procrastinate.

I always get right into with complete and total enthusiasm whatever interests me in the moment. ;)

I donít put things off.

I simply reschedule and re-prioritize on a moment-to-moment basis. :)

Iím adaptable. :cool:

If something falls by the wayside, what can I say? I was busy with other things.

And I havenít the time to be bothered with clocks or other such concerns. :p


Cheers,
Ian

you could sell ice to an eskimo huh

aeon
04-03-16, 12:05 AM
you could sell ice to an eskimo huh

only on my better days. :lol:

Iíd still screw up the paperwork, though. :doh:

SB_UK
04-03-16, 06:37 AM
I procrastinate when I don't want to do something.

I always know precisely why I'm procrastinating - when I do it.

Generally when procrastinating - I shift to working out mechanisms which are either possible or plausible (though not yet possible) for automating whatever it is that I am required though choose not to do.

So far - I haven't found any required task which I currrently would procrastinate over which is either not immediately overcome or potentially overcome through some (generally technological) support.

Particularly love the use of Firefox Sync, Lastpass, Google drive and Onedrive making my virtual environment completely hardware independent.

What I'd like (eg Asus padfone ie phone incorporated within a tablet) is something like that connected to a smart watch connected to a VR headset ... ... connected to a free global wireless network.

Actually - maybe just a [keyboard projecting smartwatch controller - VR headset] would work.

This would then give us access to EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE.

You wouldn't have to fill out paper forms, wouldn't have to have a passport, wouldn't have to worry about carrying cash or credit cards, wouldn't have to worry about being stolen from, wouldn't have to worry about being conned, would be able to switch from live expert forum to forum for advice in any given situation, would be able to source local events to attend ... ... ....

Just a smartwatch projected keyboard (has been done) linked to a VR mask with close to the footprint of google glasses rather than the first generation of VR masks which're currently coming to market.

-*-

Procrastination appears to be all about the human mind resisting listening to the demands of another ie in general the individual not being able to engage through lack of motivation in a task which they're being made to do.

We return to the idea of co-ercion as being a core determinant of procrastination and the realisation of a co-ercion free society as the solution to procrastination.

The idea of permanent Internet interface is simply a solution to all of the dull problems we face in daily life.

Which bus takes us to destination X ?
What time's the next lecture on Y ?
Who can give me a lift to Z ?
Where can I stay if I hitch-hike to A ?
I've some free time - can I use it to assist B ?
C is about to lay paving - can I go along and watch and learn how to do it for myself ?

Through people opening up their agendas - we could encourage individuals to empower individuals into learning the skills which we'd like to acquire - but whcih we can't - since in a capitalist world - these skills generally come at gerat cost - and teaching is generally performed at sub-par level in order to encourage sufficient dependence requiring the individual to attend refresher and more advanced courses.

SB_UK
04-03-16, 06:42 AM
Procrastination is classically considered a marker of ADHD.

From observing ADDer children - I'd suggest that it's nature results from one of two key reasons.
(i) Attempting some task which is too complex ie no motivation as no perceived benefit
(ii) Attempting a task which is too easy ie no motivation as no perceived benefit

We can bring back these 2 principles of procrastination to the fundamental property of the nerve,

The nerve does not want to be under-used.
The nerve does not want to be over-used.

Either under- or over- use result in nerve cell deletion (following pain).

-*-

So - general suggestion that what the mind calls procrastination can be understood from a basic property of the nerve.

ginniebean
04-03-16, 12:36 PM
Thanks for posting. The findings seem kind of obvious, but it's good they check obvious stuff instead of just assuming. Unfortunately, it adds to the whole idea of people who procrastinate just being all around irresponsible in general, which is a bummer, but maybe true in general.

I couldn't figure out from reading, was it common for all (or most) of the procrastinators to be bad at all nine EF subscales? Or just that all nine problems were present in the procrastinators as a group? It sounded like the former, but I wasn't sure. I wonder this because I have huge procrastination problems, but I think I'm actually pretty good in five of the subscales. Of the others, Working Memory and especially Initiate are the biggest problems.

In fact, the Initiate sample question in that article might as well have been "Do you procrastinate?" :eyebrow:

I feel like EF problems really compound on each other. I don't even want to imagine someone having as much problems as I do on "initiate" with all nine areas. I feel like you'd hardly be able to survive.

Okay, I'm making this hypothesis: Most people have all of their EF abilities at about the same level, and some people are better at it than others. ADHD knocks a couple of EF areas down to really bad levels, but not all of them. It'll be different for each person. So ADHD people executive function will be a mix of okay and horrible while the procrastinators in that article were mostly non-ADHD people who were a little bit bad at everything.


The part of the brain that is most impacted in adhd is the pre-frontal cortex. In brain scans (not 100% uniform across all people with adhd) you can see areas of the brain that light up when a task is being executed. The controls (those without adhd light up on a spect scan and that same area remains dimly lit or not at all in adhd. I'd look up and post the pic if I could but I'm on my phone.

What this means is that these areas of the brain are being interfered with by adhd and/or simply don't work.

The functions of the prefrontal cortex are called executive functions. The executive functions execute action, or the "just do it" part of the brain. People with normal functioning in the executive system can tell them selves to just do it and the required functions are activated to allow them to do that. For people with adhd, and othet neuro-developmental disorders, execution fails. The command fails because the parts of the brain that are supposed to respond, don't.

This is why many of the things we want to do just don't get done. To me, calling this procrastination is unfortunate because the word itself carries with it inescapable moral overtones. From a neuro-biological perspective the failure is not voluntary. Now, we know this from our own experience, but we have no argument against the moral lapse argument. If we are told we are lazy, choosing not to get things done, we have no comeback.


What is left but to believe that we are a moral lapse in sum total? Nothing, unless we educate ourselves on what executive functions are and what they do and why ours are functioning so poorly.

What this article is saying is that the executive functions involved in task activation and completion that are failing us are those to do with:

Behavioral Regulation scale (or the ability to not act on an impulse)
"I have problems waiting my turn"
The Plan/Organize scale (the ability to manage current and future oriented task demands within their situational contexts)
"I don't plan ahead for tasks"; "I have trouble organizing work"
The Shift scale (the ability to shift behaviorally or cognitively from one situation, activity, or aspect of a problem to another, as the circumstances demand)
"I have trouble thinking of a different way to solve a problem when stuck"
The Initiate scale (the ability to begin a task and to independently generate ideas, responses, or problem-solving strategies)
"I start things at the last minute such as assignments, chores, tasks"
The Working Memory scale (the capacity to hold information in mind for the purpose of generating a response or completing a task)
"I have trouble with jobs or tasks that have more than one step"
The Organization of Materials scale (orderliness in one's everyday environment and the ability to keep track of everyday objects, including homew

So, the executive function that regulates impulsivity fails, the executive function that allows us to "shift" between tasks, or sets od tasks, fails us. Etc...

I want to thank you for your post. I'm very grateful. It allows me to see where I need to work and make posts on. I think my next topic will have to be a breakdown of what EF is and what it does, and in what manner it fails for us.

Again, thank you!

ginniebean
04-03-16, 12:42 PM
I procrastinate when I don't want to do something.

I always know precisely why I'm procrastinating - when I do it.

Generally when procrastinating - I shift to working out mechanisms which are either possible or plausible (though not yet possible) for automating whatever it is that I am required though choose not to do.

So far - I haven't found any required task which I currrently would procrastinate over which is either not immediately overcome or potentially overcome through some (generally technological) support.

Particularly love the use of Firefox Sync, Lastpass, Google drive and Onedrive making my virtual environment completely hardware independent.

What I'd like (eg Asus padfone ie phone incorporated within a tablet) is something like that connected to a smart watch connected to a VR headset ... ... connected to a free global wireless network.

Actually - maybe just a [keyboard projecting smartwatch controller - VR headset] would work.

This would then give us access to EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE.

You wouldn't have to fill out paper forms, wouldn't have to have a passport, wouldn't have to worry about carrying cash or credit cards, wouldn't have to worry about being stolen from, wouldn't have to worry about being conned, would be able to switch from live expert forum to forum for advice in any given situation, would be able to source local events to attend ... ... ....

Just a smartwatch projected keyboard (has been done) linked to a VR mask with close to the footprint of google glasses rather than the first generation of VR masks which're currently coming to market.

-*-

Procrastination appears to be all about the human mind resisting listening to the demands of another ie in general the individual not being able to engage through lack of motivation in a task which they're being made to do.

We return to the idea of co-ercion as being a core determinant of procrastination and the realisation of a co-ercion free society as the solution to procrastination.

The idea of permanent Internet interface is simply a solution to all of the dull problems we face in daily life.

Which bus takes us to destination X ?
What time's the next lecture on Y ?
Who can give me a lift to Z ?
Where can I stay if I hitch-hike to A ?
I've some free time - can I use it to assist B ?
C is about to lay paving - can I go along and watch and learn how to do it for myself ?

Through people opening up their agendas - we could encourage individuals to empower individuals into learning the skills which we'd like to acquire - but whcih we can't - since in a capitalist world - these skills generally come at gerat cost - and teaching is generally performed at sub-par level in order to encourage sufficient dependence requiring the individual to attend refresher and more advanced courses.

I can't argue any of yiur ideas, except maybe privacy concerns, they sound lije nerdvana!

I am looking at maslows hierarchy of needs, I value you most for your amazing insight and understanding of meta needs. You are doing it and someone to respect deeply and sincerely for that. Your voice is so necessary.

As you yourself notes you can't fly and scrounge in the dust at the same time. I'm starting a bit lower on the scale in order to help people potentially reach where you are.

You're a gem :) be you... always

ginniebean
04-03-16, 12:50 PM
Procrastination is classically considered a marker of ADHD.

From observing ADDer children - I'd suggest that it's nature results from one of two key reasons.
(i) Attempting some task which is too complex ie no motivation as no perceived benefit
(ii) Attempting a task which is too easy ie no motivation as no perceived benefit

We can bring back these 2 principles of procrastination to the fundamental property of the nerve,

The nerve does not want to be under-used.
The nerve does not want to be over-used.

Either under- or over- use result in nerve cell deletion (following pain).

-*-

So - general suggestion that what the mind calls procrastination can be understood from a basic property of the nerve.


Our luves are filled with pointless and generally useless make work. It's making someone aomewhere money but is of small value of any to us other than survival from the paycheque.

I was watching this kovely doco about areas in thr world where centenarians are common. What it sgowed was these peiple live a life you speak of often. Happiness, contentment, leisure, family, communuty was in abundance and no one was chasing the dollar. Life was simple and good.

Keep supporting this, it's so important. This lifestyle doesn't overload EF, and it must if necessity have a fundamental overload point. We're finite beings, it does seem lije hubris to assume all is voluntary.

<3

daveddd
04-03-16, 01:30 PM
The part of the brain that is most impacted in adhd is the pre-frontal cortex. In brain scans (not 100% uniform across all people with adhd) you can see areas of the brain that light up when a task is being executed. The controls (those without adhd light up on a spect scan and that same area remains dimly lit or not at all in adhd. I'd look up and post the pic if I could but I'm on my phone.

What this means is that these areas of the brain are being interfered with by adhd and/or simply don't work.

The functions of the prefrontal cortex are called executive functions. The executive functions execute action, or the "just do it" part of the brain. People with normal functioning in the executive system can tell them selves to just do it and the required functions are activated to allow them to do that. For people with adhd, and othet neuro-developmental disorders, execution fails. The command fails because the parts of the brain that are supposed to respond, don't.

This is why many of the things we want to do just don't get done. To me, calling this procrastination is unfortunate because the word itself carries with it inescapable moral overtones. From a neuro-biological perspective the failure is not voluntary. Now, we know this from our own experience, but we have no argument against the moral lapse argument. If we are told we are lazy, choosing not to get things done, we have no comeback.


What is left but to believe that we are a moral lapse in sum total? Nothing, unless we educate ourselves on what executive functions are and what they do and why ours are functioning so poorly.

What this article is saying is that the executive functions involved in task activation and completion that are failing us are those to do with:



So, the executive function that regulates impulsivity fails, the executive function that allows us to "shift" between tasks, or sets od tasks, fails us. Etc...

I want to thank you for your post. I'm very grateful. It allows me to see where I need to work and make posts on. I think my next topic will have to be a breakdown of what EF is and what it does, and in what manner it fails for us.

Again, thank you!


"have to be a breakdown of what EF is and what it does," GB

ill pitch in, a purchased version of "what EFs are what it does"...russell barkley

https://books.google.com/books/reader?id=TS6pgND1xdoC&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&pg=GBS.PR12

barkley is good I'm sure, i know he's the go to guy around here

I feel he is going to stunt the growth on emotional regulation recognition in ADHD though

his scale is all questions based off one primary emotion, anger

i have no idea why, there is so much better ED research out there

ginniebean
04-03-16, 02:17 PM
"have to be a breakdown of what EF is and what it does," GB

ill pitch in, a purchased version of "what EFs are what it does"...russell barkley

https://books.google.com/books/reader?id=TS6pgND1xdoC&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&pg=GBS.PR12

barkley is good I'm sure, i know he's the go to guy around here

I feel he is going to stunt the growth on emotional regulation recognition in ADHD though

his scale is all questions based off one primary emotion, anger

i have no idea why, there is so much better ED research out there

Oren Mason is a good source of information on emotional regulation. I welcome all help speaking about emotional regulation as an executive function. Thanks Dave!

ginniebean
04-04-16, 12:45 AM
Dave, i'm curious, whay emotional EF's does Barkley dismiss or simply not focus on? I am curious and I'd like to add to my repertoire as well.

daveddd
04-04-16, 09:42 AM
If you look at the rating scale he has its all anger. Frusration related. And all externalizing versions

I think that even though those numbers are still high. If u included other emotions and inhibition or internalizing versions as well it would be higher

ginniebean
04-04-16, 10:52 AM
Ahh good point ok well feel free to steer me in the right direction. Being comprehensive is important. Wonder if his brother was an angry one?

daveddd
04-04-16, 11:49 AM
Ok. Im at work today and have a night clasd tonight. So tomorrow

daveddd
04-04-16, 12:19 PM
Right at the intro of one of browns books he mentions how barkley only focused on anger in emo reg

And that hes that that every emotion in adhd has issued

He says also some people certain emotions are worse than others

ginniebean
04-04-16, 01:04 PM
Exactly, couldn't agree more. Anger is eye catching but by far every emotion is hard to manage.

namazu
04-04-16, 01:54 PM
Right at the intro of one of browns books he mentions how barkley only focused on anger in emo reg
I'm not sure on what basis Brown would say that... At least for the past decade, Barkley has also discussed other aspects of emotional regulation, especially with regard to motivation, activation/task initiation, and goal-directed persistence (all of which likely factor into procrastination).

As (probably not the best) examples, here's a presentation from 2011 (http://www.caddac.ca/cms/CADDAC_pdf/EmotioninADHD_Barkley.pdf)in which he mentioned "Impaired self-motivation and activation (arousal) when needed to support goal-directed action" as one (of many) consequence(s) of deficient emotional regulation. His CADDAC lecture clip on "motivation deficit disorder" would also discuss this.

His general fact sheet on ADHD (http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/adhd-facts.pdf) also spends a solid paragraph discussing problems with emotional regulation, especially as they relate to intrinsic motivation and arousal. He doesn't explicitly tie the 2 paragraphs after that, on problem-solving and variability in work performance, to emotional regulation, but I feel that they are related to emotional regulation, and also to procrastination. (I'm not a big fan of his formulation of the "problem-solving" issue, FWIW.)

I agree that Barkley's stuff isn't the be-all and end-all of discussion -- it's one perspective among many -- but he does take a broader view of ADHD-related emotional regulation deficits than just those related to anger.

daveddd
04-04-16, 07:23 PM
I'm not sure on what basis Brown would say that... At least for the past decade, Barkley has also discussed other aspects of emotional regulation, especially with regard to motivation, activation/task initiation, and goal-directed persistence (all of which likely factor into procrastination).

As (probably not the best) examples, here's a presentation from 2011 (http://www.caddac.ca/cms/CADDAC_pdf/EmotioninADHD_Barkley.pdf)in which he mentioned "Impaired self-motivation and activation (arousal) when needed to support goal-directed action" as one (of many) consequence(s) of deficient emotional regulation. His CADDAC lecture clip on "motivation deficit disorder" would also discuss this.

His general fact sheet on ADHD (http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/adhd-facts.pdf) also spends a solid paragraph discussing problems with emotional regulation, especially as they relate to intrinsic motivation and arousal. He doesn't explicitly tie the 2 paragraphs after that, on problem-solving and variability in work performance, to emotional regulation, but I feel that they are related to emotional regulation, and also to procrastination. (I'm not a big fan of his formulation of the "problem-solving" issue, FWIW.)

I agree that Barkley's stuff isn't the be-all and end-all of discussion -- it's one perspective among many -- but he does take a broader view of ADHD-related emotional regulation deficits than just those related to anger.

interesting , i was speaking of actual emotions though

funny the part i mentioned was actually a page up in the book i linked earlier scroll up a page and its there with the scale he uses to rate emotional regulation (as a graph)

https://books.google.com/books?id=AeIdAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA58&dq=thomas+brown+adhd+activating&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDtIzh7e7LAhVE5yYKHeE_CY0Q6AEINzAD#v=on epage&q=thomas%20brown%20adhd%20activating&f=false


it seems just here a lot of people mention emotional regulation, but a poll recently on here every rated themselves very low on anger

daveddd
04-04-16, 07:26 PM
page 57

daveddd
04-04-16, 07:37 PM
https://books.google.com/books?id=uubOAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=smart+but+stuck&hl=en&sa=X&output=reader&pg=GBS.PT22.w.7.0.4

smart but stuck^^ full version , it features several cases with different types of ER

daveddd
04-04-16, 07:57 PM
I'm not trying to talk bad about him,

just inhibition(flat affect) is also a type of ER, he doesn't talk about, its pretty well talked about in other ER writing

SB_UK
04-05-16, 04:54 AM
Right at the intro of one of browns books he mentions how barkley only focused on anger in emo reg

And that hes that that every emotion in adhd has issued

He says also some people certain emotions are worse than others

I appear to have 1 child that has ADHD (quick to react angrily) and one child that has ADD-I (who likes to anger).

Causing anger appears to provide the ADD-I'er with stimulation.
Reacting angrily appears to provide the ADHD-er with stimulation.

The simple point that I'm making is that their own brain/mind's requirement for stimulation is driving them into certain behaviours which would be considered anti-social.

Both are also turning to computer games to acquire essential stimulation - with ADD-I-er playing games at a much lower complexity to ADHD-er.

Both are quiet when playing games at a level which supplies them with their required level of stimulation - that is - that what appears to appeal in the computer game - is the ability to set difficulty.

Ideally, of course - the children would be finding a better application to derive stimulation and ideally this'd be some application of broad-sense learning - I'm forced to use the term broad-sense learning to gain as much distance between what people (in the Western world) take to mean learning and what learning truly represents.
Learning should intrinsically change the individual (much like learning to ride a bike) in which reversion is not possible - you cannot unlearn to ride a bike ... ... where what we call learning is unlearnt within minutes of passing an examination.

OK - so what's the solution.

Having followed the rate of change of technological advance we're about to witness the next in the following series of technological advances.

1. Personal computer.

2. Distributed system.

3. Internet

4. Massive wireless information access, Processing handled completely by server farms and all individuals in effect carrying nothing more than a network card which allows interface to the farm.

5. What then follows (currently occurring) is VR

6. Holographic projection

The entire train above is approaching - with the net effect meaning that what we're observing (what I've just explained with respect to stimulation from personalized game profile selection) becomes a possibility in broad-sense learning.

What we gain - through these technological advances - is a customized learning environment which allows all children to find their level - and then to repeat levels if that's what's required.

Education would thereby become as stimulating as the computer game clearly has become.

What's currently lacking - though imminently available

(1) Free global wireless access - normal peeople can't afford a wireless contract - I read that there's no theoretical limit to wireless bandwidth.
(2) Solar panels embedded into clothing wirelessly (induction) charging electronic equipment - without local processing - electronic needs should plummet
(3) A more sensitive form of navigation around VR (should be possible using a portable Kinect mechanism) alongside a lightweight (portable) solution to the masks (retractable visor appeals).
(4) A portable touchable holography projector.

All of the above should be possible.

Difficulties will come in a wearable VR mask which doesn't interfere with daily life - perhaps some form of cap design where the screen drops/retracts on command.
And touchable holography - I can only imagine (currently) via gloves.

Not enamoured by the need to wear a visor / gloves - but it'll do for now.

So - the general point that I'm making is that with the overhead of having to wear a 'cap' and gloves - we've the capacity to dole out optimally stimulating education with the same hypnotic appeal that we're observing computer games appear to be having in younger generations.

The sole principle here - is towards generating student-centred education which follows the basic rule of operation of the neurone.

Its level of stimulation must be neither too little nor too much for the developing neural network to manage.

What don't I like about all of this - personally I detest hardware - and the ultimate goal has to be some method of software interaction without hardware (or at least without obtrusive hardware) - but I'm currently failing to come up with any technologically possible portable infinitely scalable touchable holography system with the capacity to entertain the visual, aural and tactile channels - without the need for a hat and gloves.

Perhaps technology may be used to develop individuals to expertise- but mastery requires the individual to depart from virtual reality and to actually engage in real world learning.

ie that virtual reality is simply a means by which an individual can become acceptably proficient - a jack of all trades

- but mastery carries the need for real-world practice.

For apprenticeship alongside a master - where Masters really don't want to spend their time educating students at pre-school equivalency.

SB_UK
04-05-16, 06:31 AM
Putting all of the above into context.

Human beings become angry when they're not stimulated.

Stimulation can either benefit or detract from broad-sense learning.

No two strudents are the same - and locating the sweet-point at which a student learns is too difficult in a group environment.

The great leap that I think society is ready to make - is to roll out a technologically driven customizable interface for education which ensures that all people have fun as they're learning (broad-sense) anything - from drawing, to music, from maths to eneglish, from history to programming.

Summarising

1. Ultimately - society is tasked with using all of the intelligence that it can muster to ensure that an individual has 'fun' from first mind to death
2. Human beings are projections of the nerve / neural networks - and the nerve has only one basic trick - which is its capacity to learn.
3. So - what we're required to do - is to introduce a mechanism of teaching which ensures learning (broad-sense).
4. The technological mechanism (described above) would certainly work and is very definitely do-able.
5. By ensuring that the student in whichever venture that they undertake is being stimulate at the appropriate level - will mean that they'll be happy - and that they'll be applying their brain's need for stimulation towards their own personal improvement.
6. Once an individual has attained the sweet-point (through personal choice) between insufficient and excess stimulation/stress - the student displays attention - is captivated - is happy - learns - becomes intrinsically better.

Back to where this post began -

If a student is placed within a learning environment which is either at too low or too hih a level - the student will oscillate from boredom to anger, from 'acting out' to 'acting up' ... ... and the form of stimulation which they require will be obtained by means which're not leading to the individual becoming intrinsically better ie which're worse than learning neutral but actually leading to extrinsic stimulation addiction ie requiring something external of the intdividual's head to supply the stimulation which their central neural mass requires.

So -

decreasign sensitivity through negative feedback (tolerance) the individual needs more stimulation to supply the needs of their brain <- the brain/mind turns to empty stimulation which tends towards behaviours which stimulate through embuing the individual with addiction/dependence <- inappropriate stimulation / teaching <- nerve -> appropriate stimulation / teaching -> learning supplies the individual's stimulation need -> development of mind (towards rationality / quality/ morality) -> happiness through the individual's senses delivering information which by virtue of the novel 'quality' neural networks learnt in the individual supply reward ie the student has attained an informational reward system

Summarising
[1] We can understand the brain from a simple understanding of the operation of the nerve in isolation
and
[1b] The operation of the simplest functional assembly of the nerve ie sensory neurone - inter-neurone - motor neurone.
[3] The nerve which confers only the property to learn - desires to learn and is stimulated by (the individual is stimulated when) learning.
[4] The desire for stimulation is a motivation which the nerve places upon us to learn - however the desire for stimulation, if not used for learning can turn in on itself and lead to an individual
[4b] Adopting anti-social maladaptive practices [first 20 to come to mind] eg


making noise,
irritating others,
shouting at other people,
repetitive computer gaming,
engaging in behaviours where the individual always wins,
cheating,
making mountains out of molehills,
overdramatising,
refusal to engage in novel experiences (amplified feelings of shame on failure),
enjoyment of gossip,
tendency towards criticising others - with a tendency towards believing oneself to be better when characterizing others as less than,
reticence towards recognizing one's own weaknesses,
manipulating situations towards personal benefit,
attraction to extreme rides (roller-coaster rides)
attraction to extreme sports (where physical harm is likely)
an overwhelming desire to win by any means possible
simple servicing of the senses (umami/starch eg cheese-burger/pizza)
a sense of humour which is malicious - another individual (never yourself) is the victim of your sense of humour ie to enjoy making fun of people
an underlying (suppressed) desire to avoid being the centre of attention - since one's own poor state of understanding is easily exposed
an inability to compromise ie to choose a path which isn't as stimulating an option as another option - which somebody else might prefer

[5] Our simple task is to ensue that people are able to access an appropriate level of teaching such that true learning (where the individual cannot revert) occurs - whereby an individual makes the transition to the acquisition of rationality, morality and quality (sensitivity) - where at some point in this 'learning adventure' - the individual attains a state (wisdom) - where the stimulation which the central nerve mass demands is supplied by simple existence in nature ie the standard senses supply all the stimulation that an individual needs.
[6] This is a state of freedom - but the state of freedom, is simply freedom from oneself - from one's own internal need to onbtain stimulation as conferred by nerve with evolutionary intention of driving the individual towards the state of mind which we call enlightenment, freedom, wisdom, morality, mindedness ... ... ie multiple synonyms which simply reflect the simple idea that at first mind (when we begin to talk) we have a developmental path which we're required to take - and that we're not happy until we've taken that path and escaped the need for stimulation from activities with addictive (by definition bad for the individual) potential.

SB_UK
04-05-16, 06:52 AM
So - all of the above can be seen to represent the path that an individual would take from birth to the acquisition of wisdom.

However - what (I think) happens is that upon attaining wisdom - a speciation even then follows which locks in wisdom as a default state and a new property (a new challenge) is provided (evolutionarily).

We've pretty much sealed mind (ie understand the process which has given rise to us) ie have peaked behind the mechanical process of evolution.
And can see that our next challenge (as echoed by dopaminergic chills) is simply to create beauty.

We are though trapped in a strange place between a world which is still structured on unenlightenment (materialism) which is holding back individuals seizing personal quality.

That's where we are currently - trying to get our heads around the fact that in order to live happy lives - all that we're required to do is synchronize efforts.

Nobody loses - everybody's a winner.

But our enemy and the major factor (particularly in our current Age of Capialism of Age of Stupid) is that there's actual addiction to the factors which our higher evolutionary selves seek to shed.

A peculiar mix (in society) of people who're addicted to stimulation and others who're trying to acquire personal quality.

Our task is simply to raise awareness in people to the extent that they see that the 3 bedroom house in suburbia, with a people carrier and a lovely pair of designer trainers is not ever going to provide their lives with meaning - but developing a mind which is aversive to these aspirations is.

With aversion to materialism comes access to personal quality - and the individual attains the eyes to forge a personally rewarding path for the individual to take to fill the gap between birth and death.

It's all just about being personally fulfilled - or in ADD speak - being able to acquire motivation from actions rather than the bottle.

SB_UK
04-05-16, 07:19 AM
What's missing ?
I can't yet imagine completely hardware-less (or at worst wholly unobtrusive) mechanism of delivering interactive touchable holography.

Rather ironically - the world of physics is about to announce that the Theory of Everything describes a model of reality which is described by the Holographic Principle ie what I'm trying to describe we should make as an underlying goal in technologcal innovation actually represents the nature of reality.

This also travels alongside an idea which has repeated on-site for the last 15 years that technological innovation has a relationship with some intrinsic evolutionary property ie as we grow an increasing awareness of ourselves even if not explicitly - 'playing God' or the Frankenstein complex comes into play - we attempt to generate what has been generated ... ... this idea could potentially confound the idea above of rolling out portable touchale holography.

... ... further examples - as we travel closer to a social species (even though nobody appears to recognize this as happening) - the social network (eg Facebook) appears ... ... that tech has a close relationship with intuition into (even if not explicitly registered eg what I've described above and 'the holograpic principle') as well as feeding some novel evolutionary need (increasing resolution of TV to match increasing resolution which are eyes are able of handling and enjoy handling.

SB_UK
04-05-16, 07:52 AM
Trying to make this idea as simple as possible - nobody procrastinates when they're having fun.
Having fun has 2 senses - addictive and productive.
We're only really concerned with productive fun (kills the drive to addictive fun).
That fun has a definition which runs parallel to learning.
That learning equates to actual intrinsic improvement in the individual (from which point reversion is not possible).
That learning requires teaching.
That the level of teaching which a student requires varies from student to student.
That computer games can be used to teach.
That the use of the latest technology can be used to provide a customizable method for productive learning -> stimulation -> fun -> personal improvement -> happiness -> acquiring meaningful satisfaction until armed with the three properties of rationality, morality and sensitivity to quality - the individual finds that they're enlightened and are freed from the potential of being captured by a form of stimulation which is addictive in nature.

-*-

Procrastination as self regulation failure

So - procrastination is the consequence of self-regulation failure reactive to an inappropriate teaching environment.