View Full Version : Appetite Regulation


SB_UK
04-03-16, 05:30 AM
A shift in emphasis away from specific medial and lateral hypothalamic neuropeptide involvement into the broader issue of Glutamate/GABA balance as key in determining appetite regulation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3744050/

To date, most effort has been placed on examining direct regulation of hypothalamic NPY/AgRP and POMC/CART-expressing neurons by various circulating factors whereas the role of upstream neural inputs has received comparatively less attention. This is surprising considering that both NPY/AgRP and POMC/CART neurons receive abundant excitatory and inhibitory synaptic input. The two neurotransmitters that account for most of the synaptic activity in the hypothalamus are the amino acids glutamate and γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA).

Extremely surprising.

We know that

MSG (glutamate) drives food intake
and that
beta-hydroxybutyrate (operating through GABA) supports satiety

We know therefore that

glutamate -> increased food intake (as stated in the paper)
GABA -> reduced food intake (not as stated in the paper)

Suggestion

Blood glucose variation (particularly animal protein / starch with multiplicative effect on insulin/Igf-1 anabolic processes) -> drive glutamate overseen increased food intake patterns.

And that

fat (ketone body) variation upwards (below ketoacidosis concentrations) (to a backdrop of stable blood glucose level) -> drive GABA overseen decreased food intake patterns.

These basic observations are extemely interesting and suggest that the world's currently most significant problem of diabesity is caused by the emergence of sensitivity resulting in distress in excess glutamate signalling in a reactive tendency towards eating where food is not required.

Froma n evolutionary perspective, it is to be expected that in the presence of food - that the individual would be driven to eat towards anabolic deposition of fat (for reasons of survival) - and that in elan times where accumulated fat was required for survival - that the net effect of shifting to fat as primary metabolic fuel - would result in the mental state of satiety.

SB_UK
04-03-16, 05:35 AM
The general thrust of this thread is that academic research into appetite regulation, diabetes and obesity has taken a specific thrust towards the highly specific neuro/endocrine factors of appetite regulation - and indeed mutations have been found in these proteins indicating their role in the control of food intake.

However - all of this is of NO consequence to the wider issue of the global epidemic of the diabesity storm which is brewing and is set to completely destroy the world's health systems.
THe combination of an ageing population acccumulating metabolic syndrome, pre-diabesity and Type II diabetes from as young as pre-school age.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14713381
The emergence of type 2 diabetes in childhood.

SB_UK
04-03-16, 05:39 AM
Simple Summary

Stress allies with Glutamate neurotransmission.
Glutamate neurotransmission also occurs with what we call 'stimulation'.
So - the individual striving towards stimulation or exposed to (di)stress having knock-on effects on regulation of appetite - resulting in a tendency towards diabetogenic/obesogenic food preferences.

SB_UK
04-03-16, 05:59 AM
The obvious solution to our problems is two-fold in nature.

1. Elimination of distress
The formation of local co-operatives which generate life's essentials collaboratively and sustainably through collective effort.
No individual, no matter their level of academic ability need fear for survival.
From observing individuals with well below average and well above average marks in Western education imprisonment - we'll be able to eliminate the psychologically debilitating effects of poor academic achievement in the lower end of the spectrum and also eliminate the disturbing levels of arrogance displayed by those at the higher end of the spectrum.
This level of arrogance is most often expressed by those who're gifted in mathematics - which is interesting since mathematics is the only academic subject where pre-teen children have proven able to complete degree level qualitifications.

2. Elimination of the allure of stimulation
The development of a mind which grows to know morality for itself (not to parrot political correctness) naturally experiences a shift from a reward system which may broadly be considered as 'stimulation' dependent to another which might be considered self-contained. A reward system in which the internal workings of the brain/mind translate quality of informational flow into reward in itself.

Also - there appears to be some level of decreasing the level of dopamineric transmission required as the individual's mind progresses towards morality/sensitivity and there is of course, some level of increasing the level of dopaminergic transmission required as the individual pursues stimulation as reward system - with stimulation recruiting negative feedback and tolerance mandating that increasing stimulation exposure requires ever increasing exposure to stimulation with 'stimulation'.

-*-

Interesting observation here - is of the close relationship between stimulation and 'di'stress.

Generally - the drive to stimulation (the individual who's always on the go) who is dynamic is considered a role-model.

I'm suggesting quite the opposite - an idea which has succinctly expressed by Pascal.
"All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone."

Personally, I'd change this to al of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to dissociate freely in complete solitude, silence in the sun.

SB_UK
04-03-16, 06:05 AM
Summary of thread

Extreme funding has been awarded to researchers to tease apart the specific metabolic pathways which determine food intake.

All money and research undertaken has been wasted.

Glutamate/GABA balance represents the overarching and simple rubric determining appetite regulation - and this balance is determined by:
(i) Environmental (di)stress exposure
and
(ii) Environmental educational exposure

(i)
Freedom from the need to earn money or from human hierarchy (ie being controlled by people who have more money or power than yourself) dissolves environmental distress.
(ii)
An education which imparts intrinsic (not extrinsically overlaid political correctness) forces a transition in reward system away from increasing need for stimulation into informational recognition (sensitivity) as the individual's controlling (prime directive motivational) reward system.

SB_UK
04-03-16, 07:00 AM
Incidentally - key additional information.

I haven't eaten anything for 7 days whilst taking diazepam for muscular spasm.
Doesn't seem to be deactivating muscular spasm because the wonderful medics of the UK have given me a lower dosage than I need - but definite effects on anxiety.
A feeling of relaxation.

This feeling of relaxation has allowed me to completely eliminate food intake.
(however with the zero calorie addition of 2 cups of coffee/stevia daily and 1 bouillon cube (for salt)).

General hypothesis being tested.

[1] Ketone body recruitment - pro-GABA neurotransmitter release
[2] Compelte fastig - pro-GABA neurotransmitter release

-*-

Generally with complete fasting - one experiences an increase in irritability, in discomfort ... ... potentiating GABA appears to overcome this and appears wonderfully effective in eliminating the drive to eat.

-*-

Thwe general take-home message is that we're not privy (since we know no different) to the level of stress we're under.
No epidemiological study can dissect this effect since all societies are under a similar level of stress.

If - however - we can see - that we're subjecting ourselves to a deep level of stress caused by:
(i) failure to adopt a positive 'giving' relationship in our interactions with others
(ii) preventing us from embracing a species-wide truly social infrastructure.

-*-

What's the probem with mention of morality and social behaviour ?
It sounds dull.

Why is this a false representation of morality/social behaviour ?
Because it relates to the acquisition of a mind which can source true motivation.

I have no desire to talk to any other human being.
I have no desire to help old ladies to cross the road.
I have no desire to do any of the wholly dull behaviours our mind ordinarily jumps to - when considering properly moral or social behaviour.

The goal is simply to orientate one's mind in such a way that the mind is drawn to engagment in behaviours which satisfy the individual.

Society's characterization of social and morality is bogus - they're poor charicatures of what social and moral are actually meant to mean - where these terms are simply meant to represent the path to personally rewarding motivation.

ginniebean
04-03-16, 04:01 PM
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone."
Personally, I'd change this to al of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to dissociate freely in complete solitude, silence in the sun.

This may appear as quibbling but to me it's not. In fact i see a very important distinction that has to be made. I do get what you are saying and what you are pointing towards.

Ok, here goes. The mind behind the mind is often called "no thought" or "no mind" a sort of antithesis to the "mind/brain" who's function is to churn out thoughts and it does so with purpose and without, like a perpetual motion machine. It is more restful and less straining to freely associate (not sure if this is what you mean by disassociate) and then there is the state behind these two states which can witness the thoughts and give thenm attention or not as necessary. There are regenerative properties in free association state, but the state of no tjought exponentiallly so. IME

SB_UK
04-04-16, 07:35 AM
This may appear as quibbling but to me it's not. In fact i see a very important distinction that has to be made. I do get what you are saying and what you are pointing towards.

Ok, here goes. The mind behind the mind is often called "no thought" or "no mind" a sort of antithesis to the "mind/brain" who's function is to churn out thoughts and it does so with purpose and without, like a perpetual motion machine. It is more restful and less straining to freely associate (not sure if this is what you mean by disassociate) and then there is the state behind these two states which can witness the thoughts and give thenm attention or not as necessary. There are regenerative properties in free association state, but the state of no tjought exponentiallly so. IME

That's extremely interesting but such a new idea to me - that it'll take a while to come u with anything useful to contribute.

I'd suggest that we have a

mind which does not deal in words which underlies <- this is more akin to mind (processor)
a mind which uses words <- this is what people think of as their mind (the interpreter)

Often when we tell ourselves to do something - we're using the interpreter
The interpreter expects the processor to just get on and do it - but the processor has 'a mind of its own' and is not able to be pushed around by the 'interpreter'.

This idea has come up previously - and is stolen from Meadd823 who describes the ADD mind 'as a mind with a mind of its own'.

So - let's stop at this relatively simple level before proceeding to the next level.
It's simply a statement that there's an underlying engine which is determining motivation with its own agenda, an agenda which we cannot alter.

A key point which I'm trying to make is that procrastination simply relates to the underlying processor being made to attend to tasks which it has no desire to engage in. Why does the ADDer underlying processor see no reward in behaviours which the nonADDer underlying processor can find motivation in.

Various reasons.
[option 1] We've a tendency (if we can build our mind) to morality - and so behaviours which are not consistent with morality will not appeal.
[option 2] We've a closer relationship to learning (broad-sense) in that we're motivated to learn (broad-sense) but to learn we must be taught at an appropriate level - and this appropriate level must increase - as we master previous levels.

So - option 2 explains why the ADD developmental delay results in procrastination in school (we're being taught at too advanced a level) but also why (if we're lucky to generate a mind) - the ADDer mind reaches (option 1) a stage where our own mind's better (moral) build rejects paying attention to behaviours which run counter to morality and also learning (ie the individual becoming better) (contravening options 1 and 2).

The interesting line here is that we may be able to eliminate reason 1 since reason 1 is subsumed within reason 2.

That's neat as it more or less places the ADDer mind as being 'true learning' (broad-sense) orientated ... ... and science demands that we seek the simplest explanatory model.

-*-

The novel idea (which I don't believe has been raised previously) then is that the ADDer mind is 'learning' predisposed.

What's the mechanism ? A novel form of interconnectivity withint he ADDer mind (facilitating more compact neural network formation) would be the easiest mechanism to envisage.
I'd need to think about whether the Markram model (need more information on exactly how the Markram model works) contributes this novel functionality.

What is sensitivity ? The ability to discern more nuanced pattern.
How can sensitivity arise ? Through having a mechanism of recruiting more information from the external environment and a method of recognizing the pattern - we re-enter the world of the
sensori (cortical) - cerebellar - motor (cortical loop) as the triumph of the neurone forming its key triumviracy of affector neurone - interneurone - effector neurone.

(I'm going to leave this here as I need to somehow locate more information on the Markram model and also delve deeper into the nature of why the affector - inter - effector system caught on.
(Must be something to do with the nature of consciousness ie something to be conscious of and something to be conscious of it - or Sagan's famous phrase of 'we're the Universe's attempt to know itself' just a poetic re-working of evolutionary consciousness).

-*-

Ok, here goes. The mind behind the mind is often called "no thought" or "no mind" a sort of antithesis to the "mind/brain" who's function is to churn out thoughts and it does so with purpose and without, like a perpetual motion machine.
[ADDED - could the non-interpreted mind be seen to be more 'structured' than a swirl of 'no thoughts' - there's this basic observation (http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide) which suggests that human [processing unit] minds reach decisions prior to human minds attaining awareness.]
It is more restful and less straining to freely associate (not sure if this is what you mean by disassociate)
[I][ADDED - Theta state is often considered (https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199203/the-art-creativity) a creative state of mind involving free-associations, and ... ... as entered between waking and sleeping state one feels a dissipation in mental tension as if the muscles of the 'mind' relax as this EEG state is attained; either theta or delta EEG state matches with dissociation I think.]
and then there is the state behind these two states which can witness the thoughts and give thenm attention or not as necessary.
[ADDED - Ahh! so you've prioritization separating a processor considering all possible thoughts - reflected in only those thoughts which are selected and make it through to interpreter; I like this as it suggests that there's only actually 1 train of thought in the human mind (an idea which comes up frequently here). Also like it from the perspective of logical consistency and mechanism of eliminating cognitive dissonance towards achieving rational morality.]
There are regenerative properties in free association state, but the state of no tjought exponentiallly so. IME
[ADDED - Like the image that comes to mind of the mind in creative mode being able to creatively structure itself towards an optimal (rational, moral) form in line with observational data; this idea - if connected to the propensity for ADDers to operate in theta EEG mode whilst awake - makes it conceivable - that we're able to improve our minds (actually fundamentally change our minds) in normal waking operation.]

Apologies - you've entered a quite difficult area here ... ... may be off base.

-*-

The basic suggestion I believe I am taking away from your idea - is that if we imagine the mind as a structure - that the ADDer - through enhanced propensity to the structural re-arrangement stage (theta EEG stage) of building the mind - is gifted with a property which enhances the ADDer's likelihood (in the presence of appropriate educational stimuli) to shape their minds towards knowing what's rationally moral.

So - the ADDer has a closer relationship than nonADDer through ease with which we shift EEG states to change our minds.

The rule of science - is that we strive towards the simplest explanatory model of reality.
I'm generally suggesting that the rule of science is a description of what is happening under the cover in mind ie the mind is a logical model which strives to encompass the simplest explanatory model over externally observable phenomena -

- but what we're adding here - is that the ADDer is gifted with a deeper capacity relative to nonADDer to incorporate (intrinsically) any novel model of understanbding into the individual's mind and therefore to become intrinsically different (since hte mind dictates behaviour) as an outcome of simplifying structural re-arrangement in the logical structure of mind.

That sounds good.

SB_UK
04-04-16, 09:59 AM
The idwa reminded me of this thread - though the title more than the subject matter.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22956&highlight=reality

Of ocurse it must be true that life experience generates a mind which represents the nature of how one experiences reality or
'we make our own reality'

- however the neat bit extra which you're adding and which is a wonderfully enjoyable thought to consider - is that it might be possible for experience to play a closer relationship (in ADDers) to altering our personally held model of reality - if theta space represents the door into remodelling the structure of reality which in turns reflects our life - our life experience - our personal quality - our quality of life.

This is a new idea - and a very exciting idea.

We should extend this idea further.

Creativity doesn't stop with a simple understanding of how reality works, or how to be moral.
Perhaps theta space is a general space in which the entire gamut of 'experiences' manifest in learning
- painting, programming, maths, taste, balance, yoga -

ie hitting theta space may be a realm in which we're predisposed to actual intrinsic/true learning ie actually becoming better.

I'm very open to this basic idea being true ie in that theta EEG is a 'true learning or intrinsic learning zone'.

Of course - this closer potential relationship to learning would mean that we're 'more' capable of rapidly altering our internal model of reality ie what we understand, what we think is a fair way to treat others, taste discrimination, music appreciation ... ...
as long as we're permitted to descend into theta space.

I don't like talking (voice) as it is not compatible with low frequeny EEG states.

It is well known that the HSP type works best in silence and alone - which aligns with your idea also.

All good (your idea) - and all in line with the general idea that ADDers are 'quality' oriented. Are informational- and not material-world oriented.

Like this idea more and more - that the theta (relaxed) state - is the optimal state for the development of the central nervous correlate of what we'd call the acquisition of personal quality.

Of course stress increases EG frequency - and stress obscures learning.

-*-

Very interesting - does any of the idea above resonate ?

SB_UK
04-04-16, 10:36 AM
Appetite regulation
Currently taking 2mg valium (back pain) -> narcotic
+
5mg dexedrine -> stimulant

stimulant + narcotic = wikiP/speedball eg cheseburger (caseomorphin + starch)

Beta - hydroxybutyrate (if similar to Gamma-hydroxybutyrate) - stimulates GABA (narcotic)
Beta - hydroxybutyrate (if similar to Gamma-hydroxybutyrate which treats narcolepsy like the stimulant) - stimulant

So

blood glucose elevation (pleasure)
+
blood glucose depression (pain)
->
wikiP/speedball (beta-hydroxybutyrate) state of joy/bliss/stable euphoria

The basis to appetite regulation - with the drive to eat excessively (consume) having the same neurochemical basis to consumerism.

Addiction shares the same core neurochemical mechanism - which is of - decreasing sensitivity to the stimulant class, decreasing sensitivity to the narcotic class of biologicla factors -

- where freedom (acquired through the mind achieving wisdom) results from sensitivity to stimulant and narcotic class to such an extent that exposure to higher than pared back basal levels of narcotic and stimulant result in a painful aversive reaction.

This reaction is felt most acutely in the hands and the feet.

-*-

We've thereby (since addiction courts growth processes (insensitiviy and hence allure to ever greater blood glucose elevating and glutamate elevating foods))
- the key to switching off inflammatory and cancerous (both diseases of over-growth) processes.

Physical disorders - overcome by pursuit of 'giving' and eliinating 'taking' reward system by virtue of growing to know morality; net effect to force a transition in optimal metabolic fuel from anabolic into maintenance of steady-state metabolism - supporting complexity in neural network re-arrangement (quality acquisition).

Psychiatric disorders - overcome by non-coercive sensitivity/quality acquisition - with psychiatric diseases representing a consequence of sensitivity forced to endure an insensitive environment.

Spiritual disorders - overcome by the individual dedicating their mind to knowing morality; this opens the door to a motivation which satisfies. Without the active pursuit of goals which're underpinned by morality - human beings suffer a deficit in meaning in their lives.

ginniebean
04-04-16, 12:01 PM
That's extremely interesting but such a new idea to me - that it'll take a while to come u with anything useful to contribute.

Nuh uh! I am so excited by your response I've been bouncing in my chair! Today i'm at work which is not unusual but this is a really busy day so I'm sneaking on when I shouldn't because this is too great


I'd suggest that we have a

mind which does not deal in words which underlies <- this is more akin to mind (processor)
a mind which uses words <- this is what people think of as their mind (the interpreter)

Often when we tell ourselves to do something - we're using the interpreter
The interpreter expects the processor to just get on and do it - but the processor has 'a mind of its own' and is not able to be pushed around by the 'interpreter'.

This idea has come up previously - and is stolen from Meadd823 who describes the ADD mind 'as a mind with a mind of its own'.


Yes, the mind that does not ordinarily speak. It can select words to use rathet than having them pre-selected by the conditioned mind. This conditioned mind babbles incessantly, admires it's opinions, works hard to rationalize, problem solves, etc. It has a function but has been allowed to in some sense be diatracted from it's duty. After all thinking is useful and necessary. But this conditioned mind has taken over, says it is who we are, rather than being a very wonderful and amazing tool we use, it takes up all conscious room. We can illustrate this, as "I am thinking" Who then is the I who thinks? So, at some point, probably early childhood, the mind behind the mind recedes and this mind that entertains us with idea after idea becomes a prominent force.

I can talk a lot more on this but for brevity sake will leave it at this.



So - let's stop at this relatively simple level before proceeding to the next level.
It's simply a statement that there's an underlying engine which is determining motivation with its own agenda, an agenda which we cannot alter.

A key point which I'm trying to make is that procrastination simply relates to the underlying processor being made to attend to tasks which it has no desire to engage in. Why does the ADDer underlying processor see no reward in behaviours which the nonADDer underlying processor can find motivation in.

Various reasons.
[option 1] We've a tendency (if we can build our mind) to morality - and so behaviours which are not consistent with morality will not appeal.
[option 2] We've a closer relationship to learning (broad-sense) in that we're motivated to learn (broad-sense) but to learn we must be taught at an appropriate level - and this appropriate level must increase - as we master previous levels.

Building is a really good word. This no mind state is ever-present, but it is quiet, observing, and often embryonic in form. It has not grown and yet all it's properties are fully formed. But like an infant it's agency is diminished. Even tho it is ever- present the egoic state forms a sort of calcification around it. This is a SENSITIVE mind, people with adhd have a tendency to form a very porous ego. Mainly because the formation of a very calcified ego doesn't get the same negative feedback so consistently and is able to form a relatively firm boundary. Now, this has to be. It's a violent and dangerous world and the ego forms in order to protect the sensitive no mind/being. A porous ego does have advantages tho in the sense that the no mind has enough agency to be able to put forward that how we are living is deeply disatisfying, dangerous, unfulfilling, because I am unattended, not just in myself but in everyone. (few exceptions)


I think you're right, the no mind mind is already fully moral, it's actions may make mistakes but effectively avoids harm.
All over these boards our precocious young friends ask about the deceptive, pointless, social routines, the structures, the gate keepers and much other nonsense that truly is lunacy.

The evidence is all around us.


So - option 2 explains why the ADD developmental delay results in procrastination in school (we're being taught at too advanced a level) but also why (if we're lucky to generate a mind) - the ADDer mind reaches (option 1) a stage where our own mind's better (moral) build rejects paying attention to behaviours which run counter to morality and also learning (ie the individual becoming better) (contravening options 1 and 2).

Yes, I think this is true and I see a bit more. Nature does what nature does and it goes forth and multiplies in every genus and species. Some are deformed. I do see that our prefrontal cortex is likely faulty, not faulty enough to mess with survival but makes it difficult for us to perform some of the functions. This in one sense really is neither here nor there because the mind behind the mind does not rely on these processes so heavily. It may also be that because of a more porous ego, that we're more sensitive to overwhelm, that we are inundated with all stimuli and unable to sort and filter. I don't know, that is a wild guess. Sorry I have to go now, I will respond more asap.



[/quote]

The interesting line here is that we may be able to eliminate reason 1 since reason 1 is subsumed within reason 2.

That's neat as it more or less places the ADDer mind as being 'true learning' (broad-sense) orientated ... ... and science demands that we seek the simplest explanatory model.

-*-

The novel idea (which I don't believe has been raised previously) then is that the ADDer mind is 'learning' predisposed.

What's the mechanism ? A novel form of interconnectivity withint he ADDer mind (facilitating more compact neural network formation) would be the easiest mechanism to envisage.
I'd need to think about whether the Markram model (need more information on exactly how the Markram model works) contributes this novel functionality.

What is sensitivity ? The ability to discern more nuanced pattern.
How can sensitivity arise ? Through having a mechanism of recruiting more information from the external environment and a method of recognizing the pattern - we re-enter the world of the
sensori (cortical) - cerebellar - motor (cortical loop) as the triumph of the neurone forming its key triumviracy of affector neurone - interneurone - effector neurone.

(I'm going to leave this here as I need to somehow locate more information on the Markram model and also delve deeper into the nature of why the affector - inter - effector system caught on.
(Must be something to do with the nature of consciousness ie something to be conscious of and something to be conscious of it - or Sagan's famous phrase of 'we're the Universe's attempt to know itself' just a poetic re-working of evolutionary consciousness).

-*-

Ok, here goes. The mind behind the mind is often called "no thought" or "no mind" a sort of antithesis to the "mind/brain" who's function is to churn out thoughts and it does so with purpose and without, like a perpetual motion machine.
[ADDED - could the non-interpreted mind be seen to be more 'structured' than a swirl of 'no thoughts' - there's this basic observation (http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide) which suggests that human [processing unit] minds reach decisions prior to human minds attaining awareness.]
It is more restful and less straining to freely associate (not sure if this is what you mean by disassociate)
[I][ADDED - Theta state is often considered (https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199203/the-art-creativity) a creative state of mind involving free-associations, and ... ... as entered between waking and sleeping state one feels a dissipation in mental tension as if the muscles of the 'mind' relax as this EEG state is attained; either theta or delta EEG state matches with dissociation I think.]
and then there is the state behind these two states which can witness the thoughts and give thenm attention or not as necessary.
[ADDED - Ahh! so you've prioritization separating a processor considering all possible thoughts - reflected in only those thoughts which are selected and make it through to interpreter; I like this as it suggests that there's only actually 1 train of thought in the human mind (an idea which comes up frequently here). Also like it from the perspective of logical consistency and mechanism of eliminating cognitive dissonance towards achieving rational morality.]
There are regenerative properties in free association state, but the state of no tjought exponentiallly so. IME
[ADDED - Like the image that comes to mind of the mind in creative mode being able to creatively structure itself towards an optimal (rational, moral) form in line with observational data; this idea - if connected to the propensity for ADDers to operate in theta EEG mode whilst awake - makes it conceivable - that we're able to improve our minds (actually fundamentally change our minds) in normal waking operation.]

Apologies - you've entered a quite difficult area here ... ... may be off base.

-*-

The basic suggestion I believe I am taking away from your idea - is that if we imagine the mind as a structure - that the ADDer - through enhanced propensity to the structural re-arrangement stage (theta EEG stage) of building the mind - is gifted with a property which enhances the ADDer's likelihood (in the presence of appropriate educational stimuli) to shape their minds towards knowing what's rationally moral.

So - the ADDer has a closer relationship than nonADDer through ease with which we shift EEG states to change our minds.

The rule of science - is that we strive towards the simplest explanatory model of reality.
I'm generally suggesting that the rule of science is a description of what is happening under the cover in mind ie the mind is a logical model which strives to encompass the simplest explanatory model over externally observable phenomena -

- but what we're adding here - is that the ADDer is gifted with a deeper capacity relative to nonADDer to incorporate (intrinsically) any novel model of understanbding into the individual's mind and therefore to become intrinsically different (since hte mind dictates behaviour) as an outcome of simplifying structural re-arrangement in the logical structure of mind.

That sounds good.
[/QUOTE]

Fuzzy12
04-04-16, 12:15 PM
What's the probem with mention of morality and social behaviour ?
It sounds dull.

Why is this a false representation of morality/social behaviour ?
Because it relates to the acquisition of a mind which can source true motivation.

I have no desire to talk to any other human being.
I have no desire to help old ladies to cross the road.
I have no desire to do any of the wholly dull behaviours our mind ordinarily jumps to - when considering properly moral or social behaviour.

The goal is simply to orientate one's mind in such a way that the mind is drawn to engagment in behaviours which satisfy the individual.

Society's characterization of social and morality is bogus - they're poor charicatures of what social and moral are actually meant to mean - where these terms are simply meant to represent the path to personally rewarding motivation.

Haven't read anything else in this thread but thanks for explaining what you mean by morality. This will help me reinterpret all your threads (and hopefully more correctly).

ginniebean
04-04-16, 12:49 PM
The interesting line here is that we may be able to eliminate reason 1 since reason 1 is subsumed within reason 2.

That's neat as it more or less places the ADDer mind as being 'true learning' (broad-sense) orientated ... ... and science demands that we seek the simplest explanatory model.

-*-

The novel idea (which I don't believe has been raised previously) then is that the ADDer mind is 'learning' predisposed.

Yes and my suggestion is this is due to having a porous ego and this mind behind the mind chafes (sensitivity) at dumb rules and unimportant stuff.

What's the mechanism ? A novel form of interconnectivity withint he ADDer mind (facilitating more compact neural network formation) would be the easiest mechanism to envisage.
I'd need to think about whether the Markram model (need more information on exactly how the Markram model works) contributes this novel functionality.

What is sensitivity ? The ability to discern more nuanced pattern.
How can sensitivity arise ? Through having a mechanism of recruiting more information from the external environment and a method of recognizing the pattern - we re-enter the world of the
sensori (cortical) - cerebellar - motor (cortical loop) as the triumph of the neurone forming its key triumviracy of affector neurone - interneurone - effector neurone.

(I'm going to leave this here as I need to somehow locate more information on the Markram model and also delve deeper into the nature of why the affector - inter - effector system caught on.

Sensitivity can be defined as that which is brought to the level of the senses. Sorry I can't speak to Makram. The idea of porousness allows for there to be morr umpressions, pleasant and unpleasant to reach thru. Possibly also to bubble up from the unconscious and i do at times wonder if the subconscious is a great part of no mind. This is a curious mind, filled with intelligence in the same way we can see intelligence in the architecture of bones, not intelligence as in cleverness or the usual. This is vast intelligence.

(Must be something to do with the nature of consciousness ie something to be conscious of and something to be conscious of it - or Sagan's famous phrase of 'we're the Universe's attempt to know itself' just a poetic re-working of evolutionary consciousness).[


Yes, absolutely. I do like poetry so that's always welcome.
-*-

Ok, here goes. The mind behind the mind is often called "no thought" or "no mind" a sort of antithesis to the "mind/brain" who's function is to churn out thoughts and it does so with purpose and without, like a perpetual motion machine.
[ADDED - could the non-interpreted mind be seen to be more 'structured' than a swirl of 'no thoughts' - there's this basic observation which suggests that human [processing unit] minds reach decisions prior to human [interpreting modules] minds attaining awareness.]
It is more restful and less straining to freely associate (not sure if this is what you mean by disassociate)
[ADDED - Theta state is often considered a creative state of mind involving free-associations, and ... ... as entered between waking and sleeping state one feels a dissipation in mental tension as if the muscles of the 'mind' relax as this EEG state is attained; either theta or delta EEG state matches with dissociation I think.]
and then there is the state behind these two states which can witness the thoughts and give thenm attention or not as necessary.
[ADDED - Ahh! so you've prioritization separating a processor considering all possible thoughts - reflected in only those thoughts which are selected and make it through to interpreter; I like this as it suggests that there's only actually 1 train of thought in the human mind (an idea which comes up frequently here). Also like it from the perspective of logical consistency and mechanism of eliminating cognitive dissonance towards achieving rational morality.]







Omg so much here to respond to, I'll likely forget Some of what I want to say.

Ok, I want to introduce the intelectus leap. The greeks made a diatinction in two kinds of thought one was ratio... a-b-c... and intellectus which made a great leap in logic and came to solution unexplained. Archimedes Eureka! Having a nice bath.. get in and bah blam.. you're running naked down the street in wonder and awe. Now the ratio bbrain can later fill in the steps to the leap and even take credit for it but this phenomena is well documented. Einstein. Neils bohr, and a host of otherd including my guess is each of us at some points or other.

This lets us know, this is not some wierd occult phenomena, the is native to us, it likely is emplyed each day, maybe only moments at a time but because of its subtlety, it's quiet nature it goes unnoticed.

I suspect this is what people seeking enlightenment are working towards, ceaseless hours being still, practice for something they have only vague notions of, getting caught up in novelties that may be pleasurable distractions, freely and wildly entertaining theories which the ratio mind comes up with and transposing or mistaking one for the other. And yet. All this searching and the state is entered daily. It's not unique or foreign, not what we THINK it is. And so we have the laughing Buddha, we have the monk who smiles widely upon enlightenment. What they were seeking was right there all along!
Maybe we need to call it intellectus morality, tho it is equally rational. The two are partners not in opposition.


There are regenerative properties in free association state, but the state of no tjought exponentiallly so. IME
[ADDED - Like the image that comes to mind of the mind in creative mode being able to creatively structure itself towards an optimal (rational, moral) form in line with observational data; this idea - if connected to the propensity for ADDers to operate in theta EEG mode whilst awake - makes it conceivable - that we're able to improve our minds (actually fundamentally change our minds) in normal waking operation.]

Apologies - you've entered a quite difficult area here ... ... may be off base.

-*-

Hell no! You're looking where I'm pointing and walking with me as we explore this. We're in that field my friend! It's sweet! Sorry gotta run again.

The basic suggestion I believe I am taking away from your idea - is that if we imagine the mind as a structure - that the ADDer - through enhanced propensity to the structural re-arrangement stage (theta EEG stage) of building the mind - is gifted with a property which enhances the ADDer's likelihood (in the presence of appropriate educational stimuli) to shape their minds towards knowing what's rationally moral.

So - the ADDer has a closer relationship than nonADDer through ease with which we shift EEG states to change our minds.

The rule of science - is that we strive towards the simplest explanatory model of reality.
I'm generally suggesting that the rule of science is a description of what is happening under the cover in mind ie the mind is a logical model which strives to encompass the simplest explanatory model over externally observable phenomena -

- but what we're adding here - is that the ADDer is gifted with a deeper capacity relative to nonADDer to incorporate (intrinsically) any novel model of understanbding into the individual's mind and therefore to become intrinsically different (since hte mind dictates behaviour) as an outcome of simplifying structural re-arrangement in the logical structure of mind.

That sounds good.

ginniebean
04-04-16, 01:00 PM
Oh yeah, hey! About those regenerative properties? Ok how is this. During meditation or free flow, the potential for the no mind to happen is increased. This deeply relaxing and stress releiving state goes unnoticed, lack of recognition. So you end up with people saying, well, I meditated, nothing happened but I sure do feel better! What ya think? Either mind will do lol! :)

SB_UK
04-04-16, 01:31 PM
Oh yeah, hey! About those regenerative properties? Ok how is this. During meditation or free flow, the potential for the no mind to happen is increased. This deeply relaxing and stress releiving state goes unnoticed, lack of recognition. So you end up with people saying, well, I meditated, nothing happened but I sure do feel better! What ya think? Either mind will do lol! :)

From current experiences on 2mg valium which activates GABA and diminishes anxiety - increasing drowsiness and therefore dropping EEG frequency -
- I think that what we're seeking is to veer away from higher frenzied states of mental activity (which I think we can characterize as stressful in much the same way that distress leads to higher EEG states - 'fight or fight').

So - society seems to pour praise on individuals whose minds are operating at full speed ... ... I'm questioning whether faster EEG states of mind are actually healthy and whether optimal, simplifying thought occurs at a more sedate rate of EEG functioning.

This is an idea which we've never discussed previously also.

There's no doubt that the ADDer is theta-oriented - it would seem likely that this orientation is predisposing the ADDer to 'something' - and that the only thing that a brain would want to be predisposed to is - 'learning' - where I always feel bad when I use the term learning - and would like to distance it from what we call academic learning which is more a form of abuse inflicted on children than a means by which we make the child innately better.

SB_UK
04-04-16, 01:41 PM
intellectus and ratio

Thanks - haven't heard these terms in this context.

A general argument I'm making is that human beings don't have a mind until wisdom is acquired.
This could be re-phrased as a series of 'ratio' rationalizations which may or may not be consistent with one another - perhaps a sparse garden in which all manner of plants are growing

- which culminate in an 'intellectus' leap giving rise to a mind or a garden in which all plants find their own space within the garden and together more than support but enable the happy existence of one another.

So - that the first mind fills itself with ideas which are not consistent - you know - fast growing virulent weeds etc ... ... which stamp out diversity ... ...
The goal is to attain a mind in which all ideas are simultaneously consistent.

All ideas - by their nature - support all other ideas
- *but* more than simply suggesting that the ideas are consistent ie able to exist alongside one another - I want to push the idea to each individual plant or idea one step further into each idea actually having a role in supporting the other plants present within the garden.

So - in context of a garden - to imagine the byproducts of each individual plant being used to nourish their neighbour - more to see this as a classical mutually supportive ecosystem - for the mind to be seen as a collection of ideas which can be characterized as a mutually supportive ecosystem.

This is another VERY BIG idea (your're on a roll!!) which we haven't discussed as yet.

Now - what's the all-important consequence of this idea - the consequence would be that the more we attempt to spread the mind across all observational data (all that we know ie from pre Big Bang to the future of man with all that is known in the middle) - the more the model strengthens (the individual grows in belief) and is able to make novel and useful observations.

ie that premature specialization prior to wisdom as promoted by the standard Western schooling system actually results in closing the doors of the mind of a child to enlightenment.

SB_UK
04-04-16, 01:48 PM
Sensitivity can be defined as that which is brought to the level of the senses. Sorry I can't speak to Makram. The idea of porousness allows for there to be morr umpressions, pleasant and unpleasant to reach thru. Possibly also to bubble up from the unconscious and i do at times wonder if the subconscious is a great part of no mind. This is a curious mind, filled with intelligence in the same way we can see intelligence in the architecture of bones, not intelligence as in cleverness or the usual. This is vast intelligence.

The idea which springs from this section.
Is that if we imagine the mind at first emergence (empty) - that there was an end-point in sight.
That evolution drives emergence of a novel proeprty but implicit within that novel property is always an end-point (structure formation) ie there's no such thing as an open-ended evolutionary property.

The reason why this idea becomes interesting - is that if we move to the level of sensitivity and quality acquisition - that there's a resolution set - which when reached - marks the limit of our capacity - marks the limit of what's required prior to a subsequent emergent event.

What we've done at the emergent level of mind is completely over-shoot the mark.

We've travelled from knowing nothing - over the last 100 years (if we look at the number of academic journals) to the generation of FAR more information than was ever required to attain enlightenment.

Perhaps this is what we're to expect - that the development of some novel property - when it gets going - rather gets ahead of itself - and some level of 'collapse' is required to delete the masses of extraneous information collected under the aegis of this novel property to permit a transcendental speciation event in the evolving structure under question.

SB_UK
04-04-16, 02:01 PM
That's 3 HUGE ideas which have arisen already on this thread :-)
- much as I've mentioned to you over the last 10 years - the forum doesn't let me give you 'rep points' because apparently - it requires that I 'spread them around' first -

oh well !!

SB_UK
04-04-16, 04:27 PM
Perhaps this is what we're to expect - that the development of some novel property - when it gets going - rather gets ahead of itself - and some level of 'collapse' is required to delete the masses of extraneous information collected under the aegis of this novel property to permit a transcendental speciation event in the evolving structure under question.

So - ratio [nalized] structures (all manner of disparate ideas from the Universe being carried on the back of a tortoise to the Universe being a figment of some bearded man's imagination) overgrow until the structure collapses to generate an intellect.

Sounds very much like the collapse of an unwieldy star into a more compact structure like a black hole.

There's something satisfying about evolutionary organization or order.

There's some connection between compactness, efficient organization of information, and fully connected network formation.

SB_UK
04-05-16, 08:03 AM
Operating under the expectation that with optimal sensitivity to stimulant and narcotic - that with a backdrop of steady blood glucose levels and increasign beta-hydroxybutyrate levels - that the mechanism of wikiP/speedball can be applied towards the individual feeling what might be called bliss/joy euphoria.

Love the idea of beta-hydroxybutyrate (butyrate bacteria) feeding the gut biome into an ecosystem which biosynthesizes everything we're required to survive.

The first line is to suggest a diet conssiting of CP EVOO and organic low GI soluble fibre - this is more than managable.

Prefer the option of an emergent event where ionizing radiation is converted via neuromelanin to produce acetate which through fatty acid synthesis generates sub-cutaneous fat is used to generate ketone bodes which power us. I'm not looking to a future without dogs - but it'd be lovely to have a dog that doesn't need to eat or poop.

The entire train has been proven to be biologically possible - however we're awaiting human beings (and the other neuro-melanin supporting organisms of cats, dogs and primates) to be triggered into using this novel metabolic pathway.

The trigger could well represent the impending magnetic polar shift which'll result in a temporary loss of the planetary electromagnetic shield (ie ionizing radiation exposure) which ?? might ?? kickstart this novel emergent property.

Naturally - this mechanism supplies us with autonomous food and shelter provision and so inherently collapses inequality as nobody is required to work for anybody else.

Everything changes - and all that's required is the acquisition of one precedented photochemical pathway.

-*-

Net conclusion to all ideas represented on-site
We're poised for an emergent evolutionary event which'll shift the species from material-world to informational-world centric and in the process will eliminate human suffering
- since the old masters teach us that the fundamental root to human suffering is material world attachment.

Sustainable, scalable technology (running alongside actual evolutionary emergent event) will mean that you have everything, everywhere ... ... and your lives will become (since you no longer need anything) - a collaborative exercise in becoming as physically distinct (ie of as high personal quality) as one could wish to be.
You'll support others in becoming better - because you'll actively enjoy the produce (expression) of their personal excellence.


... to be continued ...

SB_UK
04-05-16, 09:29 AM
What else can I suggest ?
- first 30 ideas to come to mind


You'll be granted the ability to understand everything with individualized tuition

Ability to experience anything ie desire to have a go, simply register interest and a 'teacher' will assist

Ability to venture and live anywhere ie complete geographical independence as long as you fit into the local co-operative

Ability to interact with anyone by virtue of the VR global internet

Ability to generate realities which're entirely borne through imagination ie ability to translate imagination into reality
The tendency will be towards local geographical distnctness and not homogeneity
Nobody will be able to force you to do anything
You'll have the latest in all forms of digital entertainment (by cloud/server model)
You'll no longer need to structure your day around food
Developing a fine palate will replace the need to consume for reasons of survival
An individual (unlke in this world) where you're forced to obey psychopathic bosses - if displaying anti-social tendencies can be avoided - environmentally de-selecting psychopathy
People will work to open your eyes to how everything works (empowering) as opposed to creating a false impression of how difficult everything is - to keep you dependent and therefore having to pay them
Animal abuse will end (without the need to eat)

There will be complete gender equality - since work becomes voluntary
No unsustainable practice will occur - since unsustainability generally only occurs through profit motive
Human beings won't pollute - since pollution is generally a way of not handling waste appropriately in some industrial process to avoid cost
When new products are released - they'll be released at the maximum level which innovation allows ie products won't be released with the next generation already in line

All products will have in-built complete recycling protocols attached
One global University will have individual departments across all geographical regions so we co-ordinate efforts in innovation
All neuromelanin supporting organisms will transcend the need for food - which I particularly need - because I want silence in the sun with a dog.
The car and plane will be eradicated and local tram and high-speed train will run autonomously
World-wide hubs of excellence can arise ie places for individuals to travel to if they're required to be around Masters to teach them the highest level of any particular skills
Suits which support the individual in gaining yoga-like flexibility
Real-time tech translation allowing instantaneous communication between any 2 people will become possible
Marriages (pair-bond) will last
Child-rearing will become a collective pursuit rather than the sole concern of the parent
Design tools which allow an individual to design, automatically machine and then self-assemble their home will become available
Taste will morph from brutal (umami/sweet) into subtle - the education of the palate
Politeness - appropriateness in communication will become the default state
Creations of man which're offensive to the eye will die.

SB_UK
04-05-16, 09:47 AM
What am I struggling with ?

With the minor irritation of having to get rid of things like concrete, plastic, tyres, radioactive waste which're a little harder than average to handle - and the need to have a holographic interface which carries a non-negligible physical footprint ...

[1] Am interested to know how the currently ongoing population crash is going to play out on a global level - not that it matters ... ... but because I can see a general reversal of 'out of Africa' of people from latitude extremes back down to the equator raising issues with 'tidying' up the concrete jungles that we've put in place in recent times.

This idea helps to focus the min don only introducing constructions which're easy to dismantle and to re-cycle into component parts which can re-take their place in eco-system re-circulation. Also like the idea - as I don't think we can ever be happy in a gloomy, cold, external environment.

Will the human population die back to negligible ?
I don't know.

-*-

I think that one aspect of the approaching world which people won't be able to appreciate just yet - is that our metabolic fuel will have a drug-like (wikiP/speedball) but sustainably on our mood - and so all of the above will be conducted to a backdrop of people being happy ie the general tendency towards exerting creative potential won't be conducted under the expectation that only when I've created something magnificient will I be happy - happiness won't be earned - but the experssion of creativity will be what we do to fill our time.

-*-

So - suggesting that the future which I've painted and which will occur might be considered to be depressing since I've taken away the mystery which comes with encountering the unknown ... ... but this is shrouded under a metbaolic state which we have not known which'll have us in a perpetually energized state as we make our journey through life.

Of course - seizing the biochemical of starvation will result in optimal ageing and a life without disease prior to death - all experimentally defined already ie increased longevity and resistance to disease via ketone body usage.

In the end - we're lookng at a model - that simply suggests that the pont in life is to be happy.
That an emergent event is shifting us into a 'happy' basal state.
And whilst in that happy basal state we're motivated to simultaneously improve our own personal quality within ocntext of improving the collective quality of life.

-*-

Anything in the far distant future which might represent a subsequent goal which we might strive towards ?
... ... thinking ... ...

SB_UK
04-05-16, 09:55 AM
I like the idea of entering the complete entire experiential realm of another person ie to actually experience what somebody else experiences.

Time travel's nonsense, Immortality's nonsense, Having one's essence preserved in software nonsense also, actual fusion with machine won't happen ... ...

Thing is - is that the chimp couldn't imagine the pleasure of listening to music.
Couldn't imagine.
Didn not know what music was.

And so - it's perhaps best to characterize evolution as an unimaginable deterministic journey which we, as products of evolution are pre-destined to journey along - and to welcome and adopt whichever novel properties arise as and when ... ... under the understanding that the overarching rule of evolution is towards an exponential increase in informational complexity - meaning that whatever arises will be more than satisfying - when acquired.

ginniebean
04-05-16, 11:20 AM
ADDED - Ahh! so you've prioritization separating a processor considering all possible thoughts - reflected in only those thoughts which are selected and make it through to interpreter; I like this as it suggests that there's only actually 1 train of thought in the human mind (an idea which comes up frequently here). Also like it from the perspective of logical consistency and mechanism of eliminating cognitive dissonance towards achieving rational morality.]



My suggestion is the mechanical mind thinks in parts and the mind behind the mind see's in wholes. You get the whole conclusion not the steps/parts of the solution.

ginniebean
04-05-16, 01:07 PM
Thanks - haven't heard these terms in this context.

A general argument I'm making is that human beings don't have a mind until wisdom is acquired.

J.G. Krishnamurti defined this as intelliegnce so yes, there is potential for verification of this.


This could be re-phrased as a series of 'ratio' rationalizations which may or may not be consistent with one another - perhaps a sparse garden in which all manner of plants are growing

- which culminate in an 'intellectus' leap giving rise to a mind or a garden in which all plants find their own space within the garden and together more than support but enable the happy existence of one another.

So - that the first mind fills itself with ideas which are not consistent - you know - fast growing virulent weeds etc ... ... which stamp out diversity ... ...
The goal is to attain a mind in which all ideas are simultaneously consistent.



Actually an old etymological term for faith was "consistency" to be faithful still has this connotation. Consistency is intelligence.
The goal you speak of is correct as far as I can see.



All ideas - by their nature - support all other ideas
- *but* more than simply suggesting that the ideas are consistent ie able to exist alongside one another - I want to push the idea to each individual plant or idea one step further into each idea actually having a role in supporting the other plants present within the garden.

So - in context of a garden - to imagine the byproducts of each individual plant being used to nourish their neighbour - more to see this as a classical mutually supportive ecosystem - for the mind to be seen as a collection of ideas which can be characterized as a mutually supportive ecosystem.


I'm not sure I understand this analogy. Are you speakingbof one mind or many minds?

This is another VERY BIG idea (your're on a roll!!) which we haven't discussed as yet.

Now - what's the all-important consequence of this idea - the consequence would be that the more we attempt to spread the mind across all observational data (all that we know ie from pre Big Bang to the future of man with all that is known in the middle) - the more the model strengthens (the individual grows in belief) and is able to make novel and useful observations.

ie that premature specialization prior to wisdom as promoted by the standard Western schooling system actually results in closing the doors of the mind of a child to enlightenment.

Yes to this and we already see this in practice in science. It's well documented.

ginniebean
04-05-16, 01:49 PM
The idwa reminded me of this thread - though the title more than the subject matter.


Of ocurse it must be true that life experience generates a mind which represents the nature of how one experiences reality or
'we make our own reality'

Yes.

- however the neat bit extra which you're adding and which is a wonderfully enjoyable thought to consider - is that it might be possible for experience to play a closer relationship (in ADDers) to altering our personally held model of reality - if theta space represents the door into remodelling the structure of reality which in turns reflects our life - our life experience - our personal quality - our quality of life.

Theta space, I meant to speak of this earlier but there is so much here i have trouble keeping up. Yes theta space Sounds very accurate. I may have more to say about this latet as well

This is a new idea - and a very exciting idea.

We should extend this idea further.

Creativity doesn't stop with a simple understanding of how reality works, or how to be moral.
Perhaps theta space is a general space in which the entire gamut of 'experiences' manifest in learning
- painting, programming, maths, taste, balance, yoga -

ie hitting theta space may be a realm in which we're predisposed to actual intrinsic/true learning ie actually becoming better.

I consider that theta space is the mind behind the mind. The ground of creation from which creativity springs. I mean, like the universe the "empty" space is not empty yet it appears so.



I'm very open to this basic idea being true ie in that theta EEG is a 'true learning or intrinsic learning zone'.

Of course - this closer potential relationship to learning would mean that we're 'more' capable of rapidly altering our internal model of reality ie what we understand, what we think is a fair way to treat others, taste discrimination, music appreciation ... ...
as long as we're permitted to descend into theta space.

Yeah, i agree. It becomes less and less attractive to participate in conditioned reality.



I don't like talking (voice) as it is not compatible with low frequeny EEG states.

It is well known that the HSP type works best in silence and alone - which aligns with your idea also.

All good (your idea) - and all in line with the general idea that ADDers are 'quality' oriented. Are informational- and not material-world oriented.

Like this idea more and more - that the theta (relaxed) state - is the optimal state for the development of the central nervous correlate of what we'd call the acquisition of personal quality.

Of course stress increases EG frequency - and stress obscures learning.

-*-

Very interesting - does any of the idea above resonate ?

So much of what your speaking of resonates a great deal. What I find is we use slightly different words that point to the same things so in a sense I'm doing a little dance to sort of translate in my mind andnthen retranslate back in order to communicate but the substance of what we're communicating about is consistent. :)

SB_UK
04-05-16, 02:48 PM
So much of what your speaking of resonates a great deal. What I find is we use slightly different words that point to the same things so in a sense I'm doing a little dance to sort of translate in my mind andnthen retranslate back in order to communicate but the substance of what we're communicating about is consistent. :)

Yes - this is ever so important.
To understand the 'foreign' language another speaks in such a way that when one chooses a way of describing something or other - the words one chooses are not the words one would ordinarily use - but words which the mind can see the other would use.

This is advanced commnication.

I'm not sure I understand this analogy. Are you speakingbof one mind or many minds?If we imagine a garden or eco-system in which diversity is essential for each individual component part to exist - ie each plant supports the others - the entire garden is 1 system or 1 unit.
[1] Synergy and Consistency

To be contrasted against a garden where there's an artificial partition between all plants - that is that there's 'consistency' but not synergy.
[2] Not synergy but consistency.

A random piece of land.
The most virulent of weeds will most likely overgrow less virulent weeds and will grow and then die when it exhausts its food supply.
[3] Militant evangelism fits here.

I'm trying to suggest that the mind be viewed as 1 rather than 2.

Why's this important ?
Because I usually characterize the mind as a logical structure which fields ideas which're consistent (therefore rational) with a model for morality - but it's much more - it's a mind which as it grows in resolution - becomes 'more' moral.

'more' moral is the wrong term.

Try again.

Imagine a garden in which there's such incredible diversity of plants that the collective is tremendously protected against insult - weather, pest, trampling, deluge etc ... ... that's what I'm trying to get at - that the mind builds in such a way that the ideas are much more than consistent but actually furnish the power of mind through the interconnections formed by the rational components which scale to impart the individual's world view / perspective of reality / the individual's reaction to life's obstacles.

That understanding is a property which arises through the interconnection of ideas <- this is it.

The consequence of the idea above is that if we restrict people to ideas which are present within the tiniest of spots within a cicrle representing the collective wealth of useful human knowledge - then it seems certain that worldly wisdom will be difficult to acquire.

Meadd823 used the following quote from Einstein.

Any fool can know, the point is to understandUnderstanding representing interconnections.
Knowledge representing nodes.

Nodes need not be connected.

And worldly wisdom arising from understanding holistic context from the state of the Universe pre Big Bang to some rational statement on what evolution implies will lie in our far-distant future.

Or as the red hot chilli peppers say -

'where we came from and where we're going'- though all through using what is known to generate a rational model of the process which has lead to us and which will carry us on into the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyzTiSEfM00

To suggest that we came from Alpha Centauri and are evolving towards Superman (as 'silly' examples) cannot be grounded in the body of knowledge we've recruited through observational data.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 02:38 AM
An evolutionary view might be that we're growing toward decreased environmental dependence (increased survival likelihood).

A creationist view might be that we're growing towards an ecocsystem of mutually interacting differing levels of self-contained complexity.

But who wants to survive unless you're happy.
Who wants complexity unless it eases survival.

The scientific view is appropriate but lacks aspiration.
Tge creationist view appears to be somewhat lacking in detail to prevent it being satisfying.

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”

more to follow [have to go]

SB_UK
04-06-16, 04:08 AM
The scientific view is appropriate but lacks aspiration.
Tge creationist view appears to be somewhat lacking in detail to prevent it being satisfying.Originally Posted by Einstein “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”

Science (or its expression in technology - rather than science as an expression of the human mind (understanding) is lame unless it has 'creation' as its underlying motivational principle.

High flying (and well-funded) science in physics, chemistry, biology, informatics and psychology designed to hurt other people is 'lame'.

However - similarly - the desire to realise an unimaginably better future is 'blind' unless it's guided through use of all available information and being able to synthesize that information into a model for an 'unimaginable' better.

Einstein's view is therefore correct.

It can also be expressed as the nature of the mind as an agent in realizing:
rational [the aspiration of science]
morality [the aspiration of religion]

And all of this also serves to re-iterate the point which this section above:
" - though all through using what is known to generate a rational model of the process which has lead to us {here} and extending what is known into a scientifically plausible model of how we might progress into the future.
To suggest that we came from Alpha Centauri and are evolving towards Superman (as 'silly' examples) - cannot be grounded in the body of knowledge we've recruited through observational data."

- was seeking to make.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 05:57 AM
Back to appetite regulation[1] Appetite is a general word which is used to indicate the level of some 'stimulating' actiity to which an individual is drawn towards in order to reach satiety.

[2] Negative feedback (particularly so at the level of neuro- and endocrine receptors - where receptor levels drop upon presentation with increasing ligand) - is the key mechanism of homeostasis where balance is required between either 'too much' and 'too little'.

[3] We appear to have 2 reward systems which an individual can follow - the broad spectrum of addictively rewarding pursuits which demand that an individual requires ever more stimulation to attain satiety - where we can define satiety as the 'new' equilibrium.

[4] The goal appears to be to set the equilibrium point as low as possible ie the idea of insulin (endocrine), dopamine (neurotransmitter) sensitivity as opposed to insulin, dopamine resistance.

[5] Generally people find the idea of balance dull and want to strive towards being at the extremity; this is an interesting idea and can be simply solved by realising that we're meant to be avoiding extremities in the addictively rewarding pursuits (conferring 'resistance') and attaining extremities in the opposite direction towards the acquisition of personal quality (neuro- endocrine- sensitivity).

[6] The benefits (to mood) of hitting a state of existence in which we're in a fixed equilibrium can be intuited from looking at the incredibly alluring effects of exposing oneself to the natrcotic and the stimulant simultaneously - see wikiP/speedball (drug); it would seem counter-intuitive that 2 opposites should have a multiplicative synergistic effect - but this is because stimulant and narcotic are NOT opposites - and a core part of the mechanism of evolution relates to getting one's head around the ida of seemingly antagonistic actually representing complementary partners - the male and female archetype combine - do not annhilate.

[7] We can therefore recruit the innate desire to seek personal excellence (ie extremities) in personal quality - and simultaneously arrive at a state of mind which is happy through increasing levels of sensitivity to the stimulant and narcotic complementary binding partners which represent the glutamate neurotransmitter and the GABA neurotranmitter.
That is to strive towards an extemity which reduces the complementary binding partner equilibirum set-point (or sensitivity to stimulant and narcotic molecules) to a basal minimum.

(8) This entire idea feeds into appetite regulation (see paper above) - where Glutamate / GABA balance is implied as being the higher level order governing the more specific molecules of appetite regulation as located within the medial and lateral hypothalamus.

(9) This entire idea appears to be consistent with sensitivity to stimulation - eliminating blood glucose variation and shifting to a molecule (beta-hydroxybutyrate) which appears to have endogenous both stimulant and narcotic effects as indicated by its effects on relaxation (the anxiolytic effects of diazepam through potentiating GABA) and the effects on countering narcoletpic episodes (traditionally accomplished using stimulant).

[note - cataplexy - extremes of emotion - sensory overload - unconsciousness - the nerve does not want to be either under or over stimulated]

[10] The key point about beta-hydroxybutyrate is that it's very difficult to shift to vegan ketosis - though not impossible. Al that's required if we choose to take this route is fasting, massive caloric intake reduction, EVOO and low GI vegetable consumption - sadly where each one of which, and of course all simultaneously - would not be considered attractive.

[11] To embrace that form of lifestyle - we have a couple of options
[a] - to suggest - exactly as we see in 'rat park' that all of the behaviours above are not attractive because of the level of social distress wer're under which drives us into demanding more and more of a certain form of food.
- or that we're at a point where we're about to acquire the capacity for 'human photosynthesis' (experimentally plausible with references provided under wikiP/radiotrophic fungae); the essential difference between plant and animal is that animal needs to harness more energy than plant - and so it'd make sense that we'd need to employ not visible spectrum, but ionizing spectrum radiation to keep us going.

[12] Either of the two options above are possible - but option [b] is far superior - as the ketone body state is enforced.

Thereafter - we've the simple observation that ketone bodies appear to promote sensitivity at the neural netowrk level (as evidence by the valproic acid experimental model of autism).

-*-

In [B]summary
I believe that (taking option [b] more so but not necessarily) represents a perfectly scientifically plausible mechanism for achieving a species-wide emergent event which can be thought of in pretty much the same way that we think of the renaissance - except on the level of actual species definition. The emergence of a novel species with prime directive in complete alignment with what the renaissance is assocaited with ... ... with what the term 'renaissance man' is meant to indicate ... ...

- essentially (and simply)
- the definition of a species in which people are endogenously primed towards a life which employs the rational, moral, {sensitivity to quality} reward system
(ie development of each)
[ie systematizing, empathizing and sensory
sensory cortical - cerebellar-motor cortical loops
(== cerebellar automatising (ie actually becooming intrinsically better)) facilities]

... ... in which the overarching rubric of evolution (creative expression) is embraced
and the net effect of which - is the formation of an 'enforcedly' social species; none of which (the above) should be surprising to any of us - since it's inconceivable (should be inconceivable to anybody with a mind) (and astonishing that it's not generally considered inconceivable) that organisms as sophisticated as human beings (displaying mind) could ever sanction anti-social functioning.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 06:05 AM
I'd probably also like to add - that there's more to it -
and think that what we may be observing is theta space growing to become an internal (controlled and acceptable) essential equivalent to administering speedball.

Don't yet fully know how this works - since the argument from above seems to indicate that it's simply level of beta-hydroxybutyrate which determines 'bliss' state ... ... however it's a far sweeter (and I believe I'm experiencing) access to an endogenous 'drug dispenser' when employing the mind in creative mode ie taking steps into the 'unknown' which we're evolutionarily pre-destined to know.

Although evolution generates something novel and unimaginable.
It's not generating a novel open-ended proeprty.

There's some level of emergence - divergence - divergence to instability (for instance the sun) which reaches a threshold prior to evolving into a more compact structure.

The fully connected network which is defined by complete consistency must be more compact than a model of ideas which encompass every possible one - the human mind has the capacity to consider an infinite number of ideas.

So - we've divergence from an intial point.
But then convergence when divergence generates an unstable structure.

Thereby an intitial (unitary) property generates a self-contained system (may be considered a unit).
This is an abstraction layer - and out from this abstraction layer emerges some novel property which itself follows the same pattern.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 06:09 AM
So the idea ^^ above which is novel also -

is that I believe that true creativity may re-inforce itself through activating a speedball (drug) type mood enhabncement which in turn re-inforces the individual's resolve to create.

Of course - 'false' creation ie the sorts of behaviours we experience in the current world - won't work - there's an actual mechanism built in whereby it's only through the access to the evolutionary imparted and specified state of creativity - that positive feedback - through simultaneous glutamate and GABA neurotransmitter signalling - is experienced.

Next - theta space.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 07:40 AM
This post travels a little further outside of the comfort zone

Theta space might be imagined as a state of mind where the individual's mind is tuning into a group mind - a radio wave fequency of 8 Hz in the cavity between planet and magnetosphere ie that our heads work in the same way that radios work when they're tuned into a radio station.

This idea is intuitively appealing as we can generate a mechanism for cognitive dissonance which is similar to the principle underlying wave destructive and constructive intererference ie 'pain' when ideas conflict.

Can we use this model to explain how an individual should aspire to personal individual quality ie that complexity in this wave-form can be used to encode not only consistent ideas relating to human context but also a 'fixed' framework which the individual can mount towards eg acquisiiton of individual sensory quality.

If (as already discussed) broad-sense learning occurs in theta space (let's consider learning - learning to be a Master Painter) - can we somehow link construction (true intrinsic learning) of quality with mood.

Using Peripheral's terms

Learning - aligns with SEEK (the acquisition of Mastery)
Mastery - aligns with PLAY (the expression of Mastery)

... ... not getting any closer ... ...

I want to connect creativity in theta space to fulfilment ie a direct mechanism by which happy feelings are felt when developing the self.

Perhaps an individual's theta waves can constructively interfere (this is the opposite of pain through destructive interference in cognitive dissonance) in such a way that the theta wave an individual experiences - can manifest itself as an unexpected energetic influx or 'aha - lightbulb moment'.

Would ideally like theta state creativity to become so intrinsically rewarding that creativity becomes the novel definition of a newly emergent species - whereby we're (unlike currently) motivated to make things better - not make things worse - 'gaining wealth forsaking all but self' -

so a new spirit of the age - which *importantly* has to be written into our evolutionary specification - as reward system (the behaviours we're drawn towards) must be represent the defining characteristic of a species.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 08:39 AM
gamma radiation [solar / lunar] <- scientifically proven
->-
neuromelanin photochemical transduction <- scientifically proven
->-
acetate conversion <- scientifically proven
->-
acetate polymerization - fatty acid synthesis <- scientifically proven
->-
ketone body production <- scientifically proven
->-
pro-mitochondrial, pro-healthy ageing, pro-autophagic ie pro-physical state <- scientifically proven
->-
pro-neural network formation (ie learning) <- scientifically proven
->-
ketone body supporting man remaining within the theta state (narcotic 0-8 Hz and stimulant 8- Hz should 'cancel' in theta space) <- just an idea
->-
acquisition of quality on
systematizing eg classical computing, engineering
empathizing eg collaborative enterprise
sensory eg artistry
levels
->-
representing complexity on a single wave form (a global wave form within 'radio wave' cavity
->-
which sets the bar ie the model of understanding of context and the level of quality which the species is tasked with developing.

This waveform represents the 'zeitgeist' ie as the collective species changes in understanding or quality - the entire species must progress - thereby just as we've managed to make the transition from a complete lack of understanding of context to sufficient understanding of context - so can the same basic process repeat on the level of 'quality'.

-*-

Still not happy with the last 2 steps - they're too weak.

To be continued ... ...

SB_UK
04-06-16, 08:54 AM
Attemots to work through ideas which need some work

The idea of a waveform representing an informational structure [encoding individual understanding + sensory quality within a collective structure cf object-oriented programming] which we've been set an evolutionary task to develop in a manner which runs in parallel to the method (tree structure formation) which characterizes the build of each evolutionary abstraction layer.
This isn't any different in nature to the idea of an evolutionary database which people enter information into as it's accumulated.
Not too challenging an idea.

The idea of the mind as a transmitter/receiver rather than a local processor
This is no different to the transition we're seeing in Windows OS to Chrome OS and so encouraged by the alignment between our pattern of technological evolution and this insight into our operation with heavy emphasis on the idea that tech innovation, even if we don't realise it - appears to represent the unconscious introduction of extrinsic facilities which we're intrinsically being granted.

beta-hydroxybutyrate as stimulant/narcotic driving the individual into theta EEG space
This idea is new - but it seems like a no-brainer that te combination of 2 agents - one of which drives low EEG states and another of which drives high EEG states should complement one another in setting the individual at an EEG state which is intermediate between the two. So - it's well known that theta EEG is the state between sleeping and waking.

That beta-hydroxybutyrate might have an effect on mood similar to speedball
Well - we'd have worked this out by now wouldn't we ?
No.
Another new part to this story is that we're born with intermediate sensitivity to stimulant and narcotic ie we need to obtain exquisite sensitivity to stimulant and narcotic - before beta-hydroxybutyrate has the capacity to enhance our mood in the wonderfully energising manner that we associate with wikiP/speedball (drug).

So - you're suggesting that we'll be in a simultaneous state of not requiring food, being in a state of bliss and customised to creativity (learning) ?
Yes.

Are we sure that ketone bodies are consistent with a pro-learning environment and the development of neural networks which confer quality/sensitivity ?
This is indicated by the ketone body's operation as a HDAC inhibitor and therefore a growth-retardant - and also in valproic acids effect to stimulate the development of neural networks which appear to convey sensitivity.
So - a line which cna be drawn between HDACi - valproic acid - epilepsy/bipolar disorder/ketone body metabolism and growth (particularly anti-inflammation and neural network rearrangement ie learning).

SB_UK
04-06-16, 09:02 AM
What're you struggling with ?
i think that the constructive interference idea should have some impact on human communication ie that 2 people communicating in real-time in theta space (so it would have to be writing) should be able to 'resonate' - to be defined as feel an energetic influx.
This'd serve to re-inforce/generate put in place the collective model of reality.

I've felt something which is identical in sensation to musical chills on resonating with another - so this must form a part of the evolutionary model we're acquiring.

-*-

The idea of a single wave-form which encodes empathizing, systematizing and sensory experience of the individual within a collective single construct ie quality is interesting - but relatively difficult to convey in a manner that can be understood to be intuitively correct.

Ahhh!
The holographic principle (underlying the mechanism of evolution stipulates ^^^
... ... ... more to follow.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 10:13 AM
The holographic principle is a statement that what we call reality is a form of ()() <- reality informationally encoded by a perimeter //

/ ()() /

- so // would be expected to represent the information content which projects the complementary duality (male archetype - female archetype) structures which form any give tree-structure or system or the abstraction level unit in what we'd call 'reality'.

So - collective individual minds represent the tree structure of ideas ()() and these are encoded by a (single) 8Hz wave-form which is to be found in the air cavity within which radio waves travel.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 10:32 AM
The holographic principle is a statement that there's a 'hidden' informational boundary surrounding any given 'real' evolutionary structure which specifies the 'real' structure.

So - the 'real' structure is the tree structure fromed from combination of complementary male and female archetypes - complemetary opposites.

All structures begin with a male archetype [seed] - followed by a female archetype - followed by a child ... ... until the entire structure is complete.

The tree structure is layered.

Completion of the structure must mean that the informational perimeter surrounding the 'real' world tree structure has attained its final form.

This relates to a certain level of information encoded within that informational stream ?

Evolution makes the stiulation that each perimeter - with each subsequent evolutionary level - must be of an exponentially increased information content.

We can thereby characterize evolution as an informational organizational enstructuring principle - whereby the sequential nature of evolution relates to the exponential increase we associate with mathematical integration - and whereby the 'final' property of the species on a precursor evolutionary level becomes the seed for structure formation on the subsequent level.

That's a mechanism by which we can have a recursive model to creation - which results in each evolutionary abstraction layer representing the sum of, integral of or an exponential increase in the informational content of the precursor evolutionary abstraction level.

Evolution represents the integral of integral of integral of integral of ... ... ie an exponentially increasing level of informational complexity within the holographic principle boundary reflected in complexity within the 'real' dual scaled structures of what we call reality - of what is our reality.

Creator becomes exponential informational entropic increase within the manifst world.

-*-

All of the above is OK - but ... ... ...