View Full Version : public awareness of the critical period of development and ADHD


mildadhd
04-05-16, 08:24 AM
Why are we not promoting awareness about the critical period of emotional-self-regulation?

In developmental psychology and developmental biology, a critical period is a maturational stage in the lifespan of an organism during which the nervous system is especially sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. If, for some reason, the organism does not receive the appropriate stimulus during this "critical period" to learn a given skill or trait, it may be difficult, ultimately less successful, or even impossible, to develop some functions later in life..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period





Y

Donny997
04-05-16, 10:50 AM
I've wondered that myself. Parents should get a pamphlet outlining developmental stages and their needs, and how frustrating or over-gratifying these needs leads to certain consequences. I havent thought about what would be the flaws in that method though.

Maybe the developmental research isnt scientific enough, i.e. deductive and when talking about consequences it's still very much in the realm of theory.

Another problem is that, for the most part, parents don't deliberatelty created problems for their children. They do the best with what they know and more importantlt, what they experienced thenselves as kids. A mother who wasn't mothered properly, will experience more trouble on a preverbal level of how to properly mother her own infant. So regardless of what public education tells her to do, its not that simple - humans have a very hard time giving to others what they didnt get, even if they want to. If you were treated with hostility as a child, its hard later in life to be friendly. You can try, read books on it, and improve, but its always going to be more foreign, more of a consciois strain, than for others. You might even seem mechanical. Do we want mechanical mothers and fathers?

Secondly, sometimes certain personalites and life experiences give you a bias in your values on parenting, such that a narcissist will highly value the type of parenting that raisies a narcissistic chid. They wont agree if public education tells them not to do this. People usually think they know what is best for themselves and their kids.... a lot of this is cultural bias too.

So to use your example of emotional self-regulation... the parent may value hostile enmeshment, closeness, emotional entanglement and over experssion of emotions so to maintain connection... all this they may value over self-regulation, becausd it doesnt benefit them, its foriegn to them as they didnt get it themselves, etc.

acdc01
04-06-16, 08:47 AM
So what are the critical time periods? I don't know why this isn't promoted but I'd like to learn what the critical time periods are for my sister's kids.

Lunacie
04-06-16, 12:02 PM
Why are we not promoting awareness about the critical period of emotional-self-regulation?


Y

Has that particular period of development been established?

Donny997
04-06-16, 01:34 PM
So what are the critical time periods? I don't know why this isn't promoted but I'd like to learn what the critical time periods are for my sister's kids.

Well for one don't drop the baby in it's first year... at least. Disrupts neurogenesis

Donny997
04-06-16, 01:44 PM
Has that particular period of development been established?

Theoretically yes, but not scientifically, except for maybe the first stage of bonding/affiliation. I think they are certain of that with the monkey studies they did, where a wire hanger mother-substitute didn't adequately replace a real mother, and I think the monkeys got sick and died. I'm on my phone at work or else I'd post thr study here. It's pretty well known now though, I learned about it in a high school class. What this tells us is that animals, especially humans, come with a pre-programmed need and expectation for bonding. If this need is not met or poorly met, it creates problems. You can imagine what implications this has in the rapidly developing brain of a human infant not even 6 months old.

The other needs are more speculative and less severe (the later needs have less severe consequnces), so that they don't threaten existence, but may threaten the person's confidence, etc. People can obviously survive in society without self-confidence; it's called being a submissive or self-effacing person lol. But it's a buge predictor of depression.

SB_UK
04-06-16, 02:59 PM
Theoretically yes, but not scientifically, except for maybe the first stage of bonding/affiliation. I think they are certain of that with the monkey studies they did, where a wire hanger mother-substitute didn't adequately replace a real mother, and I think the monkeys got sick and died. I'm on my phone at work or else I'd post thr study here. It's pretty well known now though, I learned about it in a high school class. What this tells us is that animals, especially humans, come with a pre-programmed need and expectation for bonding. If this need is not met or poorly met, it creates problems. You can imagine what implications this has in the rapidly developing brain of a human infant not even 6 months old.

The other needs are more speculative and less severe (the later needs have less severe consequnces), so that they don't threaten existence, but may threaten the person's confidence, etc. People can obviously survive in society without self-confidence; it's called being a submissive or self-effacing person lol. But it's a buge predictor of depression.

A bond can be described as permitting a particular form of communication between bonded partners - which has some positive effect on the biological factors of wellbeing expressed by bonded partners ?

Reciprocal feedback.

The partners are both incentivized to remain in the pair-bond.

What would happen if the male and female in 2 pair-bonded prairie-voles were swapped (just for a little while) ?
Would the positive effects of pair-bondedness no longer play out despite both individuals having formed into bonded pairs ?

So - the next question 'd be how do the individuals in a pair-bond know that they're in a pair-bond ie where's the connection ?
Does this connection permit communication ?
And is it the communcation which drives the biological factors of wellbeing to be produced ?

That'd all then start to make a little more sense in the drive to expand the idea to a bonded species with special wellbeing-associated capacity in communication ?

sarahsweets
04-06-16, 03:35 PM
I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Do you have kids yourself?
I havent thought about what would be the flaws in that method though.
I think a pamphlet is silly. Hands on learning is more effective imo.


Another problem is that, for the most part, parents don't deliberatelty created problems for their children. They do the best with what they know and more importantlt, what they experienced thenselves as kids. A mother who wasn't mothered properly, will experience more trouble on a preverbal level of how to properly mother her own infant. So regardless of what public education tells her to do, its not that simple - humans have a very hard time giving to others what they didnt get, even if they want to. If you were treated with hostility as a child, its hard later in life to be friendly.
Im sorry I strongly disagree with this. Many people can unlearn bad behavior that was modeled for them by a parent. I Didnt have the best childhood. Awesome but busy mom, had to put food on the table and didnt have time for me and divorced my dad. Dad-verbal and physically and *other abusive, objectifying, chaos producing, fear based parenting. Fear of disappointing him was worse than a smack. I knew as a 10 year old that I wanted to get married and have my kids young. I vowed then-and as a young adult that I would never raise my kids with shame or humiliation. With physical or emotional abuse. With fear and psychological twists. I would never deliberately put them down and affect their self esteem. I would always say what I mean and mean what I say. I didnt want my kids to fear me or worry about letting me down. I have been married for almost 21 years. I have a 20 year old son, 16 yr old daughter and 12 year old daughter. These kids are great. Everytime Ive had an issue with something I am gonna do or how to decide something I post it here and Ive gotten nothing but positive feedback. I am not saying Im the best or something just that this isnt all in my head.
I received no handout, no pamphlet, I barely read books because of the adhd. I took/take care of my kids based on pure instinct and common sense.


Secondly, sometimes certain personalites and life experiences give you a bias in your values on parenting, such that a narcissist will highly value the type of parenting that raisies a narcissistic chid. They wont agree if public education tells them not to do this. People usually think they know what is best for themselves and their kids.... a lot of this is cultural bias too.

Again I disagree. What am I missing here? My father was a narcissist, I am not and my kids are not. Do you mean that we can be biased about what methods work best? And tbh I make it a point to disagree with everything public education would tell me about parenting because its nobody elses job to raise my kids.

Lunacie
04-06-16, 03:42 PM
A bond can be described as permitting a particular form of communication between bonded partners - which has some positive effect on the biological factors of wellbeing expressed by bonded partners ?

Reciprocal feedback.

The partners are both incentivized to remain in the pair-bond.

What would happen if the male and female in 2 pair-bonded prairie-voles were swapped (just for a little while) ?
Would the positive effects of pair-bondedness no longer play out despite both individuals having formed into bonded pairs ?

So - the next question 'd be how do the individuals in a pair-bond know that they're in a pair-bond ie where's the connection ?
Does this connection permit communication ?
And is it the communcation which drives the biological factors of wellbeing to be produced ?

That'd all then start to make a little more sense in the drive to expand the idea to a bonded species with special wellbeing-associated capacity in communication ?

???

I thought mildadhd was talking about critical periods of development in children.

What does pair-bonding have to do with that? I don't follow.

Donny997
04-06-16, 05:54 PM
Again I disagree. What am I missing here? My father was a narcissist, I am not and my kids are not. Do you mean that we can be biased about what methods work best? And tbh I make it a point to disagree with everything public education would tell me about parenting because its nobody elses job to raise my kids.

The last sentence is my point. Seems like most people take that view. It only turns out bad if what they think is good for their kids is bad for their kids.

But for example, A successful billionaire might not listen to "public education" telling him not to intill in his kids the belief that to be successful and rich is everything in life, and not to be those things is shameful. He would shrug you off and say well look where it got me? Don't tell me how to raize my kids, they need to learn the value of competition, you're just a bum I make a tens of millions more than you anually.

And thats the point - he's viewing a person's worth based on external success. Thats his partocular bias... telling him otherwise doesnt make sense to him. Same thing could happen to a parent who only teaches their kids how to he nice and polite and self-sacrificing and nothing aboit competing and going after what they want. You tell those parents about people potentially exploting their kids throughout life and the value of healthy selfishness and they wont get it. Ego = evil, etc.

So I guess it comes down to, can't really tell people how to raise their kids cause that may involve a value re-orientation. And also I guess its kind of communist.

mildadhd
04-07-16, 12:02 AM
The "astonishing rate" of brain development occurring during the critical period of emotional-self-regulation peaks about the age of 1.


The first years of a child’s life are incredibly important. Babies and toddlers aren’t just cute—they are growing and developing at an astonishing rate. About 85 percent of the human brain develops in the first three years of life..


http://thrivewa.org/why-el/





W

SB_UK
04-07-16, 09:46 AM
http://psycnet.apa.org/books/14250/004

Romantic love is a multifaceted fundamental human experience. It is a basic drive associated with our physiology, the workings of our minds, our emotions, and our sense of connectedness. Love is also deeply embedded in our social world. This was also true of our ancestors, as evidenced by love’s presence in works of art and scriptures dating back thousands of years. Indeed, romantic love is an important part of our evolutionary heritage, and it expands beyond humans to other species that instinctually form and maintain monogamous pair-bonds. Recently, we have garnered evidence of love’s universality in humans through brain imaging studies that showed similar neural patterns for romantic love among individuals in Eastern and Western cultures, among those newly in love and in long-term love, and even in the context of romantic rejection. Romantic love is associated with feelings of euphoria, connection, and inspiration. Simultaneously, the attachment features associated with pair-bonds provide couples with a sense of calm, ease, and the feeling that “all is right in the world.” Indeed, the drives to love and pair-bond are fundamental human drives and powerful natural rewards. As such, when these basic needs are not met, it is common to experience depression and anxiety; emotional, eating, and sleeping disruptions; intrusive thinking; and even suicidal tendencies. Increasingly over recent decades, scientists have started to investigate romantic love—a phenomenon that was once relegated to poets and mystics—with sophisticated methodologies, such as functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), neurobiological markers (e.g., hormones), and animal models (e.g., testing relationship processes in nonhuman primates and rodent mammals; see Bales, Mason, Catana, Cherry, & Mendoza, 2007; see also Chapter 1, this volume). In the present chapter, we review fMRI research on romantic love and pair-bonding in humans. We discuss findings related to the brain’s mesolimbic dopamine reward system, which sustains behaviors needed for survival of the species (e.g., feeding, mating) but also responds to other stimuli, such as monetary rewards and addictive substances. Finally, we discuss how integrating knowledge concerning reward system processes that mediate romantic love and pair-bonding may elucidate knowledge on addiction.

-*-

Covers many of the bases we travel through.

There's a gaping hole though.

What is the bridge between people ?
What's the nature of the bond ?
What's the nature of the attachment ?
And what's the fundamental neurological change affected by psychological bond which effects a positive psychological state, pro-learning state ?

It has to involve interaction at the level of the electromagnetic profile which extends around an individual's brain.

A unique lock and key mechanism forms when unbonded male and unbonded female bond.

So - we've the euphoria of 'falling in love' where the lock and key become unique to one another - followed by the anxiolytic effect of being in a stable pair-bond - in which information may be transferred over this electromagnetic bridge ?

Need a lot more to make the idea above feel right.

SB_UK
04-07-16, 10:12 AM
There's some idea that's attempting to poke out relating to 'sleeping' alongside or at least attainign a certain frequency of EEG state alongside another permitting (perhaps this is the theta EEG state) attachment.

This may represent that all important first night between mother and child.
Between partners.
Explain why theta enriched ADDers may be social species oriented (ie attachment-able to others).

Just the question of what's the trigger driving attachment.
And then what's the psychological (non-material) interaction between people which subsequently results in standard access to the Oxytocin, Vasopressin + Opioid and Dopaminergic activation.

It's the bit in the middle.

It certainly makes sense that feeling at ease with somebody else would allow one to fall into the theta state - and so this may be the trigger for attachment formation.

This line of thinking wants to take itself into the capacity for bonds (once formed and between whoever) to permit transmission (same principle as radio waves) between bonded partners who're not geographically co-localized.

Still need more for this idea to resonate though.

mildadhd
04-07-16, 11:27 PM
So what are the critical time periods? I don't know why this isn't promoted but I'd like to learn what the critical time periods are for my sister's kids.

Has that particular period of development been established?


Here is a great chart. Note, sensitivity to environmental influences on the development of "emotional control" peaks around the age of 1, and sensitivity to environmental influences on the development of "emotional control" declines around the age of 3. (but does not completely decline)


http://www.reginakids.ca/rsu_docs/sensitive_periods.jpg

http://www.reginakids.ca/rsu_docs/sensitive_periods


R

BellaVita
04-08-16, 12:50 AM
I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Do you have kids yourself?

I think a pamphlet is silly. Hands on learning is more effective imo.



Im sorry I strongly disagree with this. Many people can unlearn bad behavior that was modeled for them by a parent. I Didnt have the best childhood. Awesome but busy mom, had to put food on the table and didnt have time for me and divorced my dad. Dad-verbal and physically and *other abusive, objectifying, chaos producing, fear based parenting. Fear of disappointing him was worse than a smack. I knew as a 10 year old that I wanted to get married and have my kids young. I vowed then-and as a young adult that I would never raise my kids with shame or humiliation. With physical or emotional abuse. With fear and psychological twists. I would never deliberately put them down and affect their self esteem. I would always say what I mean and mean what I say. I didnt want my kids to fear me or worry about letting me down. I have been married for almost 21 years. I have a 20 year old son, 16 yr old daughter and 12 year old daughter. These kids are great. Everytime Ive had an issue with something I am gonna do or how to decide something I post it here and Ive gotten nothing but positive feedback. I am not saying Im the best or something just that this isnt all in my head.
I received no handout, no pamphlet, I barely read books because of the adhd. I took/take care of my kids based on pure instinct and common sense.



Again I disagree. What am I missing here? My father was a narcissist, I am not and my kids are not. Do you mean that we can be biased about what methods work best? And tbh I make it a point to disagree with everything public education would tell me about parenting because its nobody elses job to raise my kids.

I don't really feel up to posting today, but I felt I needed to chime in.

I agree with Sarah. :goodpost:

I was abused in numerous ways by both of my parents for 20 years.

As a young child, I knew that their abuse made me feel bad and that it was not right. I remember thinking to myself "Well, at least I have clear examples of how not to be a parent."

I also remember as a teen deciding that I would work hard on my character so that I can be the person I want to be. During my teenage years I worked on improving myself - developing my values such as patience, self-control, and kindness. I also sought wisdom. I am still on the journey.

I'm not a parent, but I know for a fact that I will never abuse my children in any way, or treat them in any way similar to how I was treated.

I'm not a narcissist even though my mom was.

I am not a parent, but I do have a fiancé. I do give what I never got. In fact my relationship with him is like the complete opposite of the example my parents showed me. I enjoy honest open communication, gentle non-violent approaches to conflicts and working things out in a respectful manner. Giving love is something that I enjoy doing. I was never taught any of this. I had to teach myself and also my heart is just not the type to harm others.

I feel like often those who are abused are some of the kindest, most empathetic people. At least in my experience.

I look forward to being a parent one day, and to giving my children the love, understanding, compassion and gentleness that I never received.

Sorry this post is weird and going on and on - I do feel strange talking about myself in this way but I felt like I needed to make a point. That even if raised by abusers, survivors of the abuse can grow up to be kind, good-natured, and loving people and can form healthy relationships with others.

mildadhd
04-08-16, 02:07 AM
But why are we not actually discussing or promoting awareness of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation? Obviously instinct is not enough to aware of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation or everyone would already be aware.






G

Fuzzy12
04-08-16, 03:31 AM
I agree. If there is something to be aware of then I would like to know and learn about it. In fact, I think it's vital I do. Good intentions only get you so far. They are a prerequisite but they are not a complete substitute for knowledge or skill.

Have to get ready to go to work now. I'll look into this thread more later.

acdc01
04-08-16, 04:14 AM
But why are we not actually discussing or promoting awareness of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation? Obviously instinct is not enough to aware of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation or everyone would already be aware.
G

Your chart was very interesting. Thanks for increasing awareness here. Though I must say, right now, do they know any specific actions that should be taken during these earlier years to help facilitate healthier development?

Cause if the medical community hasn't outlined specific information on what to do differently during these years, then I'm not sure how we could apply awareness to help our families.

Most people would probably tell themselves to pay special attention to their kids during these critical years immediately after being aware. But without specific actions outlined that are different than how they should treat their kids during other years, they'll be encouraged for a moment after being aware and then slip back to their usual habits very shortly after.

Fuzzy12
04-08-16, 08:18 AM
I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Do you have kids yourself?

I think a pamphlet is silly. Hands on learning is more effective imo.

I disagree. I think a pamphlet is a great idea. ;)

If hands on learning is learning by trial and error then that isn't always feasible...or safe. Some mistakes you just cannot afford to make because the consequences on the child (or anyone else) are too serious.

(For instance, there are some risk factors for SIDS that can easily be avoided such as not having young babies sleep next to you. In some communities this was a long established practice and parents had to be effectively told to stop doing that. Another example is that some parents might need to be explicitly told to not rigorously shake their baby. There must a million of other things out there and I'm sure I don't know quite a few of them so I'd love to have a pamphlet that gives me more knowledge about these things.)

Again I disagree. What am I missing here? My father was a narcissist, I am not and my kids are not. Do you mean that we can be biased about what methods work best? And tbh I make it a point to disagree with everything public education would tell me about parenting because its nobody elses job to raise my kids.


I'm really struggling to understand this. I think, yes of course we can be biased about what methods work best. You might be able to avoid all the negative traits of your parents (some people can't .. or lack that awareness) but what about the others that you haven't been exposed to or haven't experienced? What if you swing too far the other way (e.g. having grown up in an unnecessarily strict household, some people might be tempted to not set any boundaries at all)?

To be honest, I think, in your case, I do think that you are extremely skilled as a parent and I always read your posts to learn from them but I don't think that EVERY parent is extremely skilled or naturally knows what's best (I, for one, can think of a million situations where I wouldn't know what is best or where I might wrongly assume to know best).

I think, you can argue if it's nobody else's job to raise your kids but the truth is that your kids live in society, are affected by various elements in society and in turn have an effect on various parts of society so it is in everybody's interest to have healthy and happy children in a society, if they are your own or not. I also think that there is a moral obligation to ensure that all children receive the best care as possible as much as that is possible rather than letting them be completely at the mercy of their parents. If there are any established standards of best practices then I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to know about them or be told them. It can only help, can't it? There has been for many years now a public education drive to vaccinate children. Would you principally disagree with that as well because you don't like being told how to raise your kids?

Some parents, I'm sure, could do with more education or training (regarding best practices for raising kids). Like I said in my post above, good intentions aren't always enough. You can cause quite a bit of harm even with the best intentions and not everyone instinctively knows what is best.

Fuzzy12
04-08-16, 08:21 AM
Your chart was very interesting. Thanks for increasing awareness here. Though I must say, right now, do they know any specific actions that should be taken during these earlier years to help facilitate healthier development?

Cause if the medical community hasn't outlined specific information on what to do differently during these years, then I'm not sure how we could apply awareness to help our families.

Most people would probably tell themselves to pay special attention to their kids during these critical years immediately after being aware. But without specific actions outlined that are different than how they should treat their kids during other years, they'll be encouraged for a moment after being aware and then slip back to their usual habits very shortly after.

I think, this might be the main problem. I'm all for making the public more aware but if there aren't any clear, accepted research results to be made aware of then what can you do? If there are concrete things that can be done that will definitely benefit a child or things that should definitely be avoided because they will beyond doubt hurt a child, then the public should be made aware of them (and pamphlets might be a good way to do this).

Donny997
04-08-16, 12:11 PM
My point is not that all people are the same as their parents, it's not a rule it's a generlization (which I believe is very much true, i.e. intergenerational influences are active in all of us) because we're talking about mass education. And the idea is that most people may not want to hear about whats best for their kids, perhaps because they're bent on carrying on family tradition or rebelling and doing the opposite.

But my posts brougt the discussion off topic I think. Millon has some good ideas on developmetal stages

Donny997
04-08-16, 12:37 PM
I think Daveddd posted a link somewhere to a book by Alan Schore if I remember. I want to read that but haven't yet. I suspect it's everything you'll want to know about the development of emotional self-regulation.

I think it has something do with the period when the child becomes more independent and self-reliant, so that he learns to meet his own needs, take care of himself, etc. If this process is thwarted, and the person doesn't meet his own needs, then it's synonymous to saying he "doesn't regulate himself" or he's "not self-reliant" or "he's reliant on other things/ people to feel good"

mildadhd
04-08-16, 10:35 PM
SarahSweets

Your self-awareness is partly what is helping you and family push on through.







B

Donny997
04-08-16, 11:13 PM
I disagree. I think a pamphlet is a great idea. ;)

If hands on learning is learning by trial and error then that isn't always feasible...or safe. Some mistakes you just cannot afford to make because the consequences on the child (or anyone else) are too serious.

(For instance, there are some risk factors for SIDS that can easily be avoided such as not having young babies sleep next to you. In some communities this was a long established practice and parents had to be effectively told to stop doing that. Another example is that some parents might need to be explicitly told to not rigorously shake their baby. There must a million of other things out there and I'm sure I don't know quite a few of them so I'd love to have a pamphlet that gives me more knowledge about these things.)

Lol now when I think of it the word pamphlet does sound funny, as if something as complicated and personal as raising kids should come in the mail along with a stack of grocery flyers. Haha. But I'm glad you got the idea: that education is the aim, no matter how it's done. Good examples, very well said! :)

Donny997
04-08-16, 11:45 PM
I'm really struggling to understand this. I think, yes of course we can be biased about what methods work best. You might be able to avoid all the negative traits of your parents (some people can't .. or lack that awareness) but what about the others that you haven't been exposed to or haven't experienced? What if you swing too far the other way (e.g. having grown up in an unnecessarily strict household, some people might be tempted to not set any boundaries at all)?

Perfectly said. The example I had in my head was parents getting the emotional needs they didn't get from their parents (e.g. closeness, nurtUrance, etc.) from their kids, which while the intentions are good (they believe they're giving their kids what they didn't get), in reality their intentions could very well be self-motivated, i.e. they're getting from their kids what they didn't get. Perhaps what they consider familial closeness is really them keeping the apron strings tied around their kids. The unconscious message is: Don't abandon your Dad. So while the child's needs for passive nurturance are met, which is wonderful, other more mature needs for are not.

SarahSweets and Bellavita don't seem like the types who we're talking about, those who won't be open to public education on child raising. If you're introspective enough to understand your own dynamics and perhaps even pursue your own therapy, then by definition you're not the type of person who will reject education in this area. Although Sarah you did say that but I get another vibe that you'd be open to it as well.

But most people are unconscious of what motivates their wanting to have a family. I think evolution designed us that way - introspection slows and bogs us down from the goals of work success and reproduction, and it's also painful. When daily living is stressful enough, who wants a pamphlet to remind them of the needs they missed out on with their own parents, and the needs they're depriving their kids?

Maybe we're not at that point yet, which goes back to the thread question of why people aren't talking about it. The other thing is that people seem to have issues with inductive reasoning and the whole bashing psychology as a pseudo-science and all that nonsense. It just wouldn't work, even if it could do a lot of good. What I imagine happening is, you have the truly educated people in the field who dedicate their lives to the nuances of childhood development write the educational material, and then the pseudo-educated people who are half-learned in the discipline get to comment on it, critique it, etc. in newspapers, articles, etc., all of which the majority of people will read instead of the original material. And then it becomes kind of a joke - "pseudo-scientists try to tell parents how to raise their kids with unproven claims."

Donny997
04-09-16, 12:12 AM
Sorry this post is weird and going on and on - I do feel strange talking about myself in this way but I felt like I needed to make a point. That even if raised by abusers, survivors of the abuse can grow up to be kind, good-natured, and loving people and can form healthy relationships with others.

Totally agree! It'd be nice if people weren't raised by abusers at all though.

mildadhd
04-09-16, 12:55 AM
-Everyone experiences the sensitive critical period of emotional-self-regulation. (0-3)










M

mildadhd
04-09-16, 12:58 AM
During the critical period of emotional-self-regulation communication is preverbal.









D

mildadhd
04-09-16, 01:32 AM
preverbal.

ADJECTIVE

1.existing or occurring before the development of speech:
"preverbal communication"

2.occurring before a verb:
"preverbal particles"




-Oxford Dictionaries

mildadhd
04-09-16, 01:47 AM
I think it is important for us to explore how we communicate before the development of speech, during the critical period of emotional-self-regulation (0-3).







G

Fuzzy12
04-09-16, 02:15 AM
]During the critical period of emotional-self-regulation communication is preverbal.

What does this mean? Is this the critical period when we learn emotional self regulation? When is it? How long does it last? Before kids learn to talk? Before they can understand? If yes, that's a very small window...

And what does pre verbal look like? Touch? Having your needs met?

BellaVita
04-09-16, 02:26 AM
My emotional regulation was already messed up when I was preverbal.

I screamed and cried way more than the average baby.

Apparently they said I had colic...

Donny997
04-09-16, 03:19 AM
]

What does this mean? Is this the critical period when we learn emotional self regulation? When is it? How long does it last? Before kids learn to talk? Before they can understand? If yes, that's a very small window...

And what does pre verbal look like? Touch? Having your needs met?

Here's a basic outline of the first two "possible" stages that different types of thinkers on this subject might point to:

Stage 1. Attachment/ bonding (Love): 0-1 year
Stage 2. Separation-individuation (aggression): 1.5 years to 3 years.

I think stage 2. is more about emotional self-regulation because stage 1 implies that the caregiver is responsible for regulating the emotions of the infant. The infant cries when tension is felt (hunger, thirst, etc.) as a signal for the mother to meet its needs. The infant doesn't regulate emotions. This is the pre-verbal stage

Stage 2 is more when the child develops language (which when you think about it, is the fist sign of an autonomous skill), separates and starts to learn to meet his/ her own needs. How well the child can learn to do this with support from the parent will help dictate how she will self-regulate later in life.

sarahsweets
04-09-16, 03:54 AM
Thanks Fuzzy, you gave me some really good things to think about.

I disagree. I think a pamphlet is a great idea. ;)

If hands on learning is learning by trial and error then that isn't always feasible...or safe. Some mistakes you just cannot afford to make because the consequences on the child (or anyone else) are too serious.

(For instance, there are some risk factors for SIDS that can easily be avoided such as not having young babies sleep next to you. In some communities this was a long established practice and parents had to be effectively told to stop doing that. Another example is that some parents might need to be explicitly told to not rigorously shake their baby. There must a million of other things out there and I'm sure I don't know quite a few of them so I'd love to have a pamphlet that gives me more knowledge about these things.)

I shouldnt have been so quick to shoot down a pamphlet. I guess what I meant was, thinking you could learn all you needed to be a good parent from a pamphlet is the silly part. They can be informative its just that, when my son was born 20 years ago, I read and read so many books and watched so many shows on how to raise a good kid. I barely every needed any of the info I read about because as it turns out, kids are individual and with an adhd kid, there isnt always just one "right" way that works. I suppose though to share general info its a good thing. My sister in law is expecting twins. She told me she cant eat read meat thats not cooked to well done. She said she read this and was told this was a must. I had never heard of that and ate my share of medium rare steak with all three kids, but because she read it, she thinks its the word of the gods.



I'm really struggling to understand this. I think, yes of course we can be biased about what methods work best. You might be able to avoid all the negative traits of your parents (some people can't .. or lack that awareness) but what about the others that you haven't been exposed to or haven't experienced? What if you swing too far the other way (e.g. having grown up in an unnecessarily strict household, some people might be tempted to not set any boundaries at all)?

I think in some cases a lack of awareness isnt a horrible thing if it means you will have fresh eyes to take in and deal with something in a positive way that may not be something that has been written about or previously done.
All the mini crisis's that ive shared about, we only ever came to those ways of dealing with them out of love and discussion with my husband. I guess education isnt horrible but I do believe trusting your gut goes a long way.

To be honest, I think, in your case, I do think that you are extremely skilled as a parent and I always read your posts to learn from them but I don't think that EVERY parent is extremely skilled or naturally knows what's best (I, for one, can think of a million situations where I wouldn't know what is best or where I might wrongly assume to know best).


This hit me. I shed some tears after reading this. Thank you so much for sharing that, it touched me. I doubt myself so much sometimes and wonder if I am doing a good job or making the right choices. Sometimes I blame myself that the kids have had issues and if they were genetically caused by me. No one ever tells you when you are doing a good job, they only criticize when you arent doing what they think you should do.

I think, you can argue if it's nobody else's job to raise your kids but the truth is that your kids live in society, are affected by various elements in society and in turn have an effect on various parts of society so it is in everybody's interest to have healthy and happy children in a society, if they are your own or not. I also think that there is a moral obligation to ensure that all children receive the best care as possible as much as that is possible rather than letting them be completely at the mercy of their parents. If there are any established standards of best practices then I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to know about them or be told them. It can only help, can't it? There has been for many years now a public education drive to vaccinate children. Would you principally disagree with that as well because you don't like being told how to raise your kids?

This is an excellent point. I guess balance is needed. What is safe and healthy for kids is something we as a society can help be responsible for. I guess I got prickly because sometimes the latest research can sometimes poo-poo what I chose to do with my kids as if what I did was the worst choice ever and yet they are such good kids. Like when my son was a baby, the walkers had wheels and he used to follow me all over. When the girls were born it was like walkers were the devil and kids had to remain stationary and restrained because of injuries. I loved having him follow me around and to be mobile but people were leaving the babies unattended and they were getting hurt or killed. I guess the safety part just seems like common sense but I guess education can go a long way. I just resent the way kids are treated like fragile adorable little catastrophes, and should be kept in plastic bubbles.

Thanks so much, again.

daveddd
04-09-16, 06:56 AM
My emotional regulation was already messed up when I was preverbal.

I screamed and cried way more than the average baby.

Apparently they said I had colic...

yea, thats common in ADHD and autism

the ability to regulate emotion using executive function doesn't develop until 2-3 years old and keeps developing until adulthood

some babies with colic are able to develop emotional regulation skills

mildadhd
04-09-16, 11:37 AM
And what does pre verbal look like? Touch? Having your needs met?

I love Questions.

Affective feelings.

-Emotional affect
-Homeostatic affect
-Sensory affect


On the chart see critical period of development for..

-Hearing (form of touch)
-Vision
-Emotional control
-Habitual ways of responding

http://office.machealth.com.au/YHRDemo/Portals/20/sensitive%20and%20critical%20periods.gif




.

mildadhd
04-09-16, 11:53 AM
Then, compare with the critical period of development for..


-Language
-Conceptualization
-Peer social skills
-Numbers

http://office.machealth.com.au/YHRDemo/Portals/20/sensitive%20and%20critical%20periods.gif



.

mildadhd
04-09-16, 12:17 PM
-Hearing (form of touch)
-Vision
-Emotional control
-Habitual ways of responding

The rapid sensitive critical periods for hearing, vision, emotional control and habitual ways of responding occur before and decline earlier. (0-3)

Than the less rapid sensitive critical periods for language, conceptualization, peer social skills and numbers.

-Language
-Conceptualization
-Peer social skills
-Numbers







.

mildadhd
04-09-16, 12:33 PM
The critical period of development for hearing, vision, emotion control and habitual ways of responding occur during the implicit stage of development (0-3)

The critical period of development for language, conceptualization, peer social skills and numbers occur during implicit/explicit stage of development (3-100)



.

mildadhd
04-09-16, 12:45 PM
Preverbal = implicit stage of development. (0-3)






É

mildadhd
04-10-16, 04:28 AM
I recommend the book "Scattered" for anyone interested learning about the development of the early critical period of emotional-self-control, ADHD temperament and ADHD. (0-3)(3-100)


..Of all environments, the one that most profoundly shapes the human personality is the invisible one: the emotional atmosphere in which the child lives during the critical early years of brain development..


-Gabor Mate M.D. "Scattered", chapter "Different Worlds", P 55





G

Fuzzy12
04-10-16, 11:58 AM
[QUOTE=mildadhd;1801118]The critical period of development for hearing, vision, emotion control and habitual ways of responding occur during the implicit stage of development (0-3)

The critical period of development for language, conceptualization, peer social skills and numbers occur during implicit/explicit stage of development (3-100)

Fascinating but also scary. It seems like there's so much scope to mess up irreversibly in these first 3 years.

So what can be done in the first 3 years to improve these early skills? I'm guessing that maybe it can't be easily summarised in a few sentences but I struggle reading books. Are there any papers that you could point me to?

Fuzzy12
04-10-16, 12:01 PM
I wonder also what it means if you have to pick up a skill after the critical period. Would it be just slower or might you just then never achieve the full potential?

Can emotional regulation be taught actively or is it more a case of not messing up the process of the child learning naturally and passively emotional regulation in a reasonably healthy environment?

ginniebean
04-10-16, 12:52 PM
Have you considered writing a book?

mildadhd
04-10-16, 10:18 PM
Here's a basic outline of the first two "possible" stages that different types of thinkers on this subject might point to:

Stage 1. Attachment/ bonding (Love): 0-1 year
Stage 2. Separation-individuation (aggression): 1.5 years to 3 years.

I think stage 2. is more about emotional self-regulation because stage 1 implies that the caregiver is responsible for regulating the emotions of the infant. The infant cries when tension is felt (hunger, thirst, etc.) as a signal for the mother to meet its needs. The infant doesn't regulate emotions. This is the pre-verbal stage

Stage 2 is more when the child develops language (which when you think about it, is the fist sign of an autonomous skill), separates and starts to learn to meet his/ her own needs. How well the child can learn to do this with support from the parent will help dictate how she will self-regulate later in life.


Thanks Donny997

In stage 2, why "(aggression)"?

I would have guessed, GRIEF/separation ?




m

mildadhd
04-10-16, 10:29 PM
Fascinating but also scary. It seems like there's so much scope to mess up irreversibly in these first 3 years.

So what can be done in the first 3 years to improve these early skills? I'm guessing that maybe it can't be easily summarised in a few sentences but I struggle reading books. Are there any papers that you could point me to?

I think supervised free play is the most enjoyable approach to helping caregivers promote their child's basic instinctual emotional needs.



m

mildadhd
04-10-16, 10:48 PM
i wonder also what it means if you have to pick up a skill after the critical period. Would it be just slower or might you just then never achieve the full potential?



Accommodations for ad(h)d temperament may be required. Depends on the person's temperament and circumstances.





>

mildadhd
04-10-16, 10:55 PM
Have you considered writing a book?

No, i do not think so?

I like the idea of us making a pamphlet. People who learn from the pamphlet, could donate money to ADDForums if they wanted.




H

Donny997
04-10-16, 11:17 PM
Thanks Donny997

In stage 2, why "(aggression)"?

I would have guessed, GRIEF/separation ?




m

I'm referring to the biological instincts that facilitate different needs. The idea is that the child initially has a biological instinct for love/ sensuality to facilitate the need for attachment to promote survival.

Around the 1-2 year mark the child has a growing need for separation-individuation, i.e. separation from mother and becoming his own person. The instinct of aggression facilitates this need. It's the "jet fuel" that facilitates propulsion out of the symbiotic orbit. No child can "separate" from his Mother without some expression of opposition, anger, defiance, disagreement. If these expression of difference and anger are allowed, they mature into healthier forms, e.g. self-assertion, self-expression, autonomy, etc.

Yeah, grief too... there's mourning in that period for sure. I would say GRIEF is more akin to pre-mature separation... I think

ginniebean
04-11-16, 01:21 AM
Ok a pamphlet sounds good.

BellaVita
04-11-16, 02:14 AM
mildadhd I don't know you IRL but I just wanted to say that based on your posts I bet you're an empathic, understanding, compassionate parent who truly cares about needs.

Your research into this is inspiring.

mildadhd
04-13-16, 11:59 PM
I'm referring to the biological instincts that facilitate different needs. The idea is that the child initially has a biological instinct for love/ sensuality to facilitate the need for attachment to promote survival.

Around the 1-2 year mark the child has a growing need for separation-individuation, i.e. separation from mother and becoming his own person. The instinct of aggression facilitates this need. It's the "jet fuel" that facilitates propulsion out of the symbiotic orbit. No child can "separate" from his Mother without some expression of opposition, anger, defiance, disagreement. If these expression of difference and anger are allowed, they mature into healthier forms, e.g. self-assertion, self-expression, autonomy, etc.

Yeah, grief too... there's mourning in that period for sure. I would say GRIEF is more akin to pre-mature separation... I think

Thanks Donny997
Very interesting thinking. If I understand Prof. Panksepp correctly? There are different types of aggression. There is a type of predatory aggression (example; hunting, etc) that feels good that originates primarily from the SEEKING/enthusiasm system and there is type protection aggression that feels bad that originates primarily from the RAGE/anger system? I wonder if the aggression you are referring to, originates from the SEEKING/enthusiasm system? Example, early playful pretend predatory aggressive good feelings promoting self-esteem, autonomy, etc, (growing up to be a successful hunter).



I

Donny997
04-14-16, 06:01 AM
Thanks Donny997
Very interesting thinking. If I understand Prof. Panksepp correctly? There are different types of aggression. There is a type of predatory aggression (example; hunting, etc) that feels good that originates primarily from the SEEKING/enthusiasm system and there is type protection aggression that feels bad that originates primarily from the RAGE/anger system? I wonder if the aggression you are referring to, originates from the SEEKING/enthusiasm system? Example, early playful pretend predatory aggressive good feelings promoting self-esteem, autonomy, etc, (growing up to be a successful hunter).



I

Hmm I don't know but thanks for recommending that author :). But if I had to guess I'd say the aggressive instinct can be channeled in many ways, so you could say there's different types. The positive healthy type I would say fits well with seeking system you mentioned.

daveddd
04-14-16, 09:44 AM
I noticed panskepp is including shame in his primary emotions now

Once thought to be a "social" emotion

How is this learned to be regulated. I think its a very important emotion when speaking of a lot of disorders. Adhd included

A very powerful pre verbal visceral emotion

Donny997
04-14-16, 01:16 PM
How is this learned to be regulated. I think its a very important emotion when speaking of a lot of disorders. Adhd included

Good question. I gotta think what shame really means. To step out of line in a group or perform poorly in some task that would, if otherwise performed well, would bring value to the group/ society? One example.. a person doesn't match the dress code at work and wears shabby clothes. His coworkers would in subtle or direct ways to "shame" him into dressing more appropriately, because this would bring harmony to the group, wouldn't be offensive, etc.

I can see how shame would be very important in the separation/ practicing stage. You wouldn't shame an infant, but you might a 3 year old for breaking something.

So I guess the best way to regulate shame would be: 1) to have good equipment that allows you to learn things without screwing up all the time (ADHD might hinder this) and 2) to simply have an environment that doesn't unduly shame a person as he learns to do things, communicate, socialize, etc.

If you have 2) going for you, I guess a good parent would not criticize when mistakes are made, but would show disappointment and then console/ encourage the kid? So because the parent shows disappointment, the child develops a shame response, but because the parent shows that it's also okay, the shame response is short-circuited, so that the emotion is felt to do what it was intended to do but also doesn't continue unnecessarily. That might be one way a person learns to regulate negative emotions.

mildadhd
04-14-16, 09:04 PM
Daveddd

Are you sure Dr. Panksepp says shame is a unconditioned primary emotional response system?


m

SB_UK
04-15-16, 08:57 AM
Shame - interesting we haven't been through this.

Shame - a self-inflicted 'hit' to self-esteem through falling short of an arbitrary definition (albeit with some (if weak) logical basis) of what is considered (to the zeitgeist of the time) 'right'.

Have you no shame ?
An attempt to make an individual feel shame.

However if the individual feels 'no shame' - it's unlikley that although asking an individual if they 'have no shame' might result in them changing their behaviour - it's not because the individual is suddenly overcome by shame.

What's the key idea here.

[1] The human mind is supposed to be a personal complete engine (formed through broad-sense education) which is able to define for the individual the difference between right and wrong.
[2] Throughout history - 'morality' has been commandeered by immorality to make people do what they're told - there's a remarkable power which one individual can hold over another - if they can convince the other - that through following their lead - they're doing what is 'right'.
[3] Shame arises in current society in the poor, the drug addicted, the dirty, the diseased and society portrays the image of the perfect individual as being somebody of (essentially) wealth - since all else which characterizes the current stereotype for an individual who should feel no shame - can be bought.
[3b] You can buy a perfect house, a perfect wife, a perfect car, a perfect body ... ...
[4] Devalued - any personal intrinsic measures of quality.

My suggestion of course - is that people (who are better than they feel) are taught to feel shame through failure to subscribe to the norms which society sets for 'quality'.

The core issue - though - that the quality (materialist) of society is a one way road into deep despair - and that true quality (at the level of systematizing, sensory and empathizing) are lost in the pursuit of society's definition of quality.

Shame is thereby (in this current world) a necessary personal characteristic of those who would be (actually) intrinsically better ie who would seek to better themselves.

-*-

So shame - failure (inability) to conform to the social norm.

What's needed (of course) is a new global societal norm ?
And that norm will place (only) emphasis on all people being helped to be the best that they can be - with no element of competition between people permitted.

Natural selection (this is more guided than 'selection' from an array of possibilities or unknowable determinism) or the evolutionary mechanism seeks to generate a species which is optimally fit (able to survive) - not individuals within the species which rise up above the rest.

A functional diversity or eco-system in which individuals combine through classic emergence to generate a functional unit which is greater than the sum of its parts.

-*-

Should deviation from 'social norms' be considered a key emotional reaction ?
We require people to be optimally diverse within the rules of social cohesion.

In other organisms (social species) - the option to be a 'renegade' just isn't there.

'Shame' might be a key aspect (a key emotional reaction) (as soon as the species acquires enlightenment) which prevents an individual from engaging in anti-social behaviour.

daveddd
04-15-16, 12:09 PM
Daveddd

Are you sure Dr. Panksepp says shame is a unconditioned primary emotional response system?


m

Not exactly. In a newer book dissociation and trauma. 2015 maybe. He mentions resetting the primary emtions by activating them electically and symbolizing them with imagery and language

He mentions newer research shows shame can be activated the same way

And its very important in mental illness

Chronic unverbalize Shame can inhibit all emotion with its powerful respone and lead to a condition called alexthymia (allan schore)

Alexthymia is being linked to adhd in current research and its showing a major role in emotion regulation in adhd

Do any of you know the physiology of shame?

SB_UK
04-16-16, 11:48 AM
Not exactly. In a newer book dissociation and trauma. 2015 maybe. He mentions resetting the primary emtions by activating them electically and symbolizing them with imagery and language

He mentions newer research shows shame can be activated the same way

And its very important in mental illness

Chronic unverbalize Shame can inhibit all emotion with its powerful respone and lead to a condition called alexthymia (allan schore)

Alexthymia is being linked to adhd in current research and its showing a major role in emotion regulation in adhd

Do any of you know the physiology of shame?

Just reading about it - it feels like there's some strong connection between alexthymia and anhedonia.

Which apparently pops out as the last line on the wiki page.

'Alexithymics also show a limited ability to experience positive emotions leading Krystal (1988) and Sifneos (1987) to describe many of these individuals as anhedonic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia).'

Pleasure is not obtained if the appropriate reward system is not activated.

The reward system which appears to be involved appears to relate to social interaction.

To feel invalidated by social expectations and social interactions.

To feel shame.

mildadhd
04-16-16, 01:38 PM
..Do any of you know the physiology of shame?


Physiologically shame are conditioned secondary(upper limbic) and tertiary(neocortex) emotional feelings, originating from emotional experiences of the unconditioned primary(midbrain/brain stem area) emotional feelings.

Lack of emotional-self-regulation may result in consistent excessive self shaming. Another reason why public awareness of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation development is so important.





m

daveddd
04-16-16, 05:13 PM
Physiologically shame are conditioned secondary(upper limbic) and tertiary(neocortex) emotional feelings, originating from emotional experiences of the unconditioned primary(midbrain/brain stem area) emotional feelings.

Lack of emotional-self-regulation may result in consistent excessive self shaming. Another reason why public awareness of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation development is so important.





m

I'm wondering if this may not be the case

I've seen evidence from panskepp and schore that shame may be primal

or shame itself is possibly a extremely unhealthy form of emotional regulation (parasympathetic shut down

like you state a good reason for awareness

mildadhd
04-16-16, 10:33 PM
We have found that the ancient subcortical regions of mammalian brains contain at least seven basic affective systems:

Here, we refer to these systems as SEEKING (expectancy), FEAR (anxiety), RAGE (anger), LUST (sexual excitement), CARE (nurturance), PANIC/GRIEF (sadness), and PLAY (social joy)..


..The further up one goes in BrainMind complexity--from primary to tertiary levels--the more variable and complex the overall equation becomes.

Multiple emotional streams may cross in the thinking mind, creating an enormous variety of higher emotions that are often the focus of psychologists--pride, shame, confidence, guilt, jealousy, trust, disgust, dominance, and so forth with hundreds of possible variants.

However, without a clear vision of the primary processes the important work on higher processes remains profoundly incomplete.

We cannot have a credible theory of mind without a credible understanding of the basic emotional feelings we inherit as evolutionary tools of living..

-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology Of Mind", P xi.


Thanks Davedd for bringing up the topic of shame and lack of self-regulation, extremely important. I agree that a lack of emotional-self-regulation may result in unhealthy self-shaming.

I am wondering if shame is a secondary emotion originating from the PANIC/GRIEF (sadness) and other primary emotional response systems? (Guessing, I don't remember Dr.Panksepp saying)








m

daveddd
04-16-16, 10:53 PM
Thanks Davedd for bringing up the topic of shame and lack of self-regulation, extremely important. I agree that a lack of emotional-self-regulation may result in unhealthy self-shaming.

I am wondering if shame is a secondary emotion originating from the PANIC/GRIEF (sadness) and other primary emotional response systems? (Guessing, I don't remember Dr.Panksepp saying)








m

panic maybe yes

this what i was refffering to in the "resetting

https://books.google.com/books?id=0i-FAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA354&dq=panksepp+shame&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUtM_l1JTMAhXC2D4KHSuJBjAQ6AEIHDAA#v=on epage&q=panksepp%20shame&f=false

daveddd
04-16-16, 10:56 PM
the schore referance

https://books.google.com/books?id=1IT4CgAAQBAJ&pg=PA461&dq=allan+schore+shame+alexithymia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiV8rf91ZTMAhXGSyYKHTj8D1UQ6AEIJDAB#v=on epage&q=allan%20schore%20shame%20alexithymia&f=false

mildadhd
04-16-16, 11:54 PM
panic maybe yes

this what i was refffering to in the "resetting

https://books.google.com/books?id=0i-FAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA354&dq=panksepp+shame&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUtM_l1JTMAhXC2D4KHSuJBjAQ6AEIHDAA#v=on epage&q=panksepp%20shame&f=false

Stimulated PANIC/GRIEF system inhibits opioids.

Stimulated CARE and PLAY system(s) encourages opioids.

All positive and negative feeling primary emotional response systems are meant to promote survival.




m

SB_UK
04-17-16, 04:53 AM
SHAME apperars more appropriate to consider on a social (collective) level.
The 7 primary emotions seem more appropriate to consider on an individual level.

This would make sense since the 7 primary emotions arose before mind.
Mind is the intended agent of social structure formation.

So -

Mind = Wisdom = enforced moral consistency - kept in place by SHAME
|
V
governs 7 basic individual emotional responses.

The problem with SHAME - is that it's not appropriate until the indivd=idual and society bear morality - since SHAME can be made to apply to unSHAMEful behaviours within context of an incomplete mind.

For intance
'it is right to go into war for one's country' - SHAME othewise - based on an individual/social failure in 'being' morality
'it is right for a husband to suffer physical distress to earn money for his family' - SHAME othewise - based on an individual/social failure in 'being' morality
'it is right for a couple to have children' - SHAME othewise - based on an individual/social failure in 'being' morality
'it is right for a man to marry a woman' - SHAME othewise - based on an individual/social failure in 'being' morality
'it is right for an individual to be a well mannered school pupil and docile worker' - SHAME othewise - based on an individual/social failure in 'being' morality

So - SHAME (human) will directly govern the more fundamental evolutionary emotions (mammalian and reptilian)

With mind

[7 fundamental emotions] held togethe by the social impulse of SHAME


-*-

So - SHAME as a fundamental 'human' emotion (which arises in its true form only as the species attains enlightenment) which regulates more fundamental, primitive, evolutionarily imparted emotions (Panksepp's SEVEN) - appropriately only when the human (logical/rational) moral engine is in place.

-*-

The neat part of this idea is that the pattern in evolution - is of some novel property being acquired and then being held together by a 'social impulse'.

The boson holds the fermion together.
Perhaps SHAME holds the 7 fundamental emotions together - in the sense that only when wisdom of individual/collective arises - will SHAME be appropriate - will the recruitment of 7 fundamental emotions be appropriate also.

-*-

Evolution operates to increase complexity - and so the place we should be looking to is the uppermost level (generation of a mind) - since through connection to lower levels - having the capacity to disrupt the entire fundamentally interconnected system.

-*-

So eg
'it is right for a couple to have children' - SHAME othewise - based on an individual/social failure in 'being' morality

- will mean that reward will not be accessed in life
- will lead to anhedonia - to alexithymia
- will mean that eg PLAY and SEEK will no longer be operational

Listless, Inert nature -
and all through a failure in formaton of mind of morality.

->- leading to Peripheral's PLACEBO thread of opioid system activation

- through failure in mind - the brain loses its ability to control physical wellbeing.

-*-

It's critical that human beings develop a mind which is functionally moral - not superficially (just do what you're told) moral.

SB_UK
04-17-16, 04:57 AM
Stimulated PANIC/GRIEF system inhibits opioids.

Stimulated CARE and PLAY system(s) encourages opioids.

All positive and negative feeling primary emotional response systems are meant to promote survival.
m

Only with the personal acquisition of morlaity
can POSITIVE and NEGATIVE feelings promote survival.

SB_UK
04-17-16, 05:06 AM
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-10/econ-hdt101207.php
Endogenous opioid binding to mu-receptors is furthermore hypothesized to mediate natural rewards and has been proposed to be the basis of infant attachment behavior (Moles 2004).Currently taking tramadol for uncontrollable muscular spasms.
Tramadol is an opioid pain medication used to treat moderate to moderately severe pain.[1] When taken as an immediate-release oral formulation, the onset of pain relief usually occurs within about an hour.[5] It has two different mechanisms. First, it binds to the μ-opioid receptor.

Opioid (narcotic) -> <- Amphetamine (Stimulant) balance

Likely.

Generation of mind (logical/rational/moral) -> confers social 'right' motivation -> defines true reward from social 'tight' ventures
->
development of a social species in which people's behaviours are governed by doing what's best for the entire collective
->
social species attachment
->
mu opioid receptor activation (as seen in the placebo effect) - from a deep-seated 'belief' in the meaningfulness of one's existence
The general point being that belief determines opioid system activation.

- to have a purpose which satisfies.

-*-

And we've a beautiful return to the idea of 'material world attachment as the root cause of all suffering'

- since we're in pain (unable to obtain pain relief) until endogenous mu-opioid receptor activation is handled through formation of mind - representing an understanding of the immaterial nature of reality - effectively separating an individual away from ALL material world attachment issues.

It's hard to be motivated by illusions - but you need to *know* that they're illusions before the power of the illusion (materialism) is lost.

-*-

And another interesting connection - contrasting the 7 fundamental (ancent evolutionary) emotions and SHAME as a fundamental HUMAN emotion
- would be that -

continued from above

- is that it's ONLY the human mind (ie uniquely human characteristic) - which when applied can see through the material world delusion.

ie animals, children and most adults (sadly) believe that the world they know is real - where it's clear, if only people would think about it - that the manifest Universe within of which we're products - is the product - projection of some more fundamental (actually RRReal) creative impulse.

SB_UK
04-17-16, 05:25 AM
Simple summary
Shame is a fundamental human emotion which is governed by mind - with
mind -> shame
operating as the means of enforcing a social design upon man.

Problems
mind -> shame -> fundamental emotional system dysregulation
-- when the mind is not constructed around morality.

-*-

EVERYTHING follows naturally if we realise that all that the human mind is required to do is to tell the difference between RIGHT and WRONG.

-*-

Noting in our kids - that we have
empathizing-gifted - inattentive ADD - language-deficient - nice - female archetype
systematizing-gifted - ADHD - language-gifted - nasty - male archetype

Goal is for male - female archetype bond formation - so that the opposites balance.

ie the mind is a logical (systematizing) moral (empathizing) structure -
where what we've done in society is completely overwhelm the female archetype in the equation - with virulent adherence to the male archetype of creating confusion through language manifest across every field of human endeavour.

Obfuscating language - male archetype
Simple language - female archetype

After time spent looking into every system that human beings have introduce - and esoteric languages generated - nothing that human beings have done is very hard.

All that people do in a capitalist structure is make their field as inaccessible to othes (confusion) through language in order to benefit personally.

The very definition of immorality.

mildadhd
04-17-16, 12:08 PM
Higher MindBrain human morality and human self-regulation are neocortical tertiary processes (conscious cognitive thoughts), that would not exist or develop without lower BrainMind deeply subcortical primary states/processes (conscious affective feelings).







m

mildadhd
04-17-16, 12:50 PM
Thanks SB_UK.

I wonder if the conversation would appear less of a disagreement if we all wrote which primary, secondary, and tertiary processing levels and from the top-down/bottom-up or bottom-up/top-down perspectives we are each focusing?

Example

Focusing on the tertiary processing levels

What would be the difference between human immature morality and human immature self-regulation?

What would be the difference between human mature morality and mature self-regulation?



m

SB_UK
04-17-16, 01:05 PM
shame

https://medium.com/@joe_brewer/the-mental-disease-of-late-stage-capitalism-4a7bb2a1411c#.hw2hp1ft7

You are “supposed” to feel shame when it’s not your fault.

SB_UK
04-17-16, 01:53 PM
Higher MindBrain human morality and human self-regulation are neocortical tertiary processes (conscious cognitive thoughts), that would not exist or develop without lower BrainMind deeply subcortical primary states/processes (conscious affective feelings).
m

In the same way that humans wouldn't exist if the virus had not emerged ?

The question might be whether individual / collective top down moral shortcomings alter eg parent-child interaction to give rise to defective emotional states which scale.

So - top - down to bottom - up ... ... though with an emphasis on top - down triggering bottom - up failure.

So - failure to learn appropriate emotioal reactivity through social interaction with parents, others ... ... or a bottom up defect as expressed through a top down (morality) failure in the collective and the individuals within the collective ?

SB_UK
04-17-16, 02:01 PM
Thanks SB_UK.

I wonder if the conversation would appear less of a disagreement if we all wrote which primary, secondary, and tertiary processing levels and from the top-down/bottom-up or bottom-up/top-down perspectives we are each focusing?

Example

Focusing on the tertiary processing levels

What would be the difference between human immature morality and human immature self-regulation?

What would be the difference between human mature morality and mature self-regulation?



m

Individual immature morality
Collective immature morality
pre-empts
Individual immature/dysfunctional self-regulation
Collective immature/dysfunctional self-regulation

Individual mature morality
Collective mature morality
pre-empts
Individual mature self-regulation
Colelctive mature self-regulation

Top - down collective morality
belies
Top - down individual morality
pre-empts
bottom - up individual emotional self-regulation
scales to provide
bottom - up collective emotional self-regulation

-*-

Summarising
Lower evolutionary layers are profounded affected by inappropriate structuring of higher evolutionayr abstraction layers - the key is to focus on the current emergent property and not on lower properties - which although affected - won't prove to be the root cause of the problem which we're tasked with solving in eliminating the discomfort that an ADDer feels throughout life.

mildadhd
04-17-16, 06:41 PM
SB_UK







m

mildadhd
04-18-16, 02:04 PM
Summarising
[/B][/U]Lower evolutionary layers are profounded affected by inappropriate structuring of higher evolutionayr abstraction layers - the key is to focus on the current emergent property and not on lower properties - which although affected - won't prove to be the root cause of the problem which we're tasked with solving in eliminating the discomfort that an ADDer feels throughout life.

SB_UK

Underdevelopment associated with ADHD occurs in early life. If caregivers want to understand how children's emotional-self-regulation develops in early life. We must understand all three primary, secondary and tertiary BrainMind processing levels. If caregivers want to understand treatment, we must understand all three primary, secondary and tertiary from both MindBrain and BrainMind processing levels.



mildadhd