View Full Version : Placebo Affect


mildadhd
04-10-16, 05:08 AM
How can we make the placebo effect last longer?

What is the placebo effect?










OX

sarahsweets
04-10-16, 05:52 AM
I cant say for sure what it is but to me its psychological?
Example-
A couple of years ago I started accupuncture for chronic pain and stress. I read the research, I knew there was no real scientific evidence to support that it works. I knew that it wouldnt be a replacement for my medications. I knew that if it did work it would be all in my head. People I knew that were skeptics- I told them that I knew how they felt about it and didnt care to hear what they had to say about it any further.

Guess what? It helped! This Sarah girl, who is suspicious of the quack doctors and naturalpaths was digging accupuncture?

I didnt care if it was placebo. I dont know why it worked or why I thought it did. I dont care if underneath it was really a result of my mind convincing myself that it works,
the bottom line was I FELT better and thats all that mattered.

mildadhd
04-10-16, 06:23 AM
..in small doses, opiates will elevate mood and promote social solidarity.

In large doses, they promote intoxication.

In fact, appropriate amounts of endogenous opioids can have medically beneficial effects.

For example, the placebo effect, whereby patients respond favorably to fake medication, can be explained in terms of emotional chemistry.

If a patient feels that his needs are being considered and tended to, then the positive feelings of being cared for are accompanied by the release, in the brain, of calming endogenous opioids, which can diminish the feelings associated with the GRIEF/PANIC system


In addition to producing good feelings, opioids also reduce stressful arousal, reduced feelings of physical as well as psychological pain, and produce various immune benefits.

So these patients will feel comforted and be much better off medically than they would be if they thought that no one seemed to care.

We now know that the placebo effect is real medicine that operates mainly through the activation of brain opioid systems.

These healing tendencies can thus be reduced, and even eliminated, by drugs like naloxone and naltrexone, which block the effects of opioids.

In the past, when an apparently healthy patient appeared emotionally agitated and complained of physical symptoms, doctors tended to believe that the symptoms were psychosomatic, ""all in the mind", and therefore not physical or "real".

This is no longer an accepted view of psychosomatic illness.

As soon as we recognize that affects emerge from emotional systems that are fueled by brain chemicals that can also exert an eventual effect on the functioning of the brain and the body, then the division between emotional and physical disorders narrows to the point of extinction.

Although it may appear that the mind and the brain are different entities, the mind being incorporeal, and the brain being physical, they are really one and the same thing.

The MindBrain (or BrainMind) is a unified entity lacking any boundary with the body--it is intergral to the physical system as a whole.

An understanding of the brain emotional systems, and the psychological and bodily symptoms that they can generate, is not only important for medicine in general; it also offers a totally new perspective for contemporary psychiatry.

Affective neuroscience points the way to treating the real and specific symptoms of the emotional imbalances, the natural endophenotypes of the BrainMind..


-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology Of Mind", p ix





P

BellaVita
04-10-16, 06:24 AM
I've heard that the placebo effect with sugar pills makes the patient feel better by reducing their symptoms (or perception of symptoms?) but it doesn't make the underlying problem heal.

I've heard that even when the patient was told they were receiving a sugar pill, that it often still had a positive effect.

mildadhd
04-10-16, 06:28 AM
I cant say for sure what it is but to me its psychological?
Example-
A couple of years ago I started accupuncture for chronic pain and stress. I read the research, I knew there was no real scientific evidence to support that it works. I knew that it wouldnt be a replacement for my medications. I knew that if it did work it would be all in my head. People I knew that were skeptics- I told them that I knew how they felt about it and didnt care to hear what they had to say about it any further.

Guess what? It helped! This Sarah girl, who is suspicious of the quack doctors and naturalpaths was digging accupuncture?

I didnt care if it was placebo. I dont know why it worked or why I thought it did. I dont care if underneath it was really a result of my mind convincing myself that it works,
the bottom line was I FELT better and thats all that mattered.

Thanks SarahSweets

I have real positive experiences with acupuncture aswell. Really relaxing.





m

Fuzzy12
04-10-16, 06:30 AM
My dad's been taking sugar pills (aka homeopathy) for years and he says it's work for him. As long as it doesn't cause any harm it's OK I guess. It can only help. The problem starts when you replace tried and tested treatment methods with placebo.

I know nothing about the science behind placebo but I can imagine that just the feeling of being able to be in control of your issue rather than helplessly not doing anything might help.

I guess the best way for a placebo to work is for someone in a position of authority to state that this will work. What authority works best depends on the individual though. For some it's scientific peer reviewed studies, for some it's religion and for some it's mass consensus. I guess you need faith for all of these.

mildadhd
04-10-16, 06:36 AM
My dad's been taking sugar pills (aka homeopathy) for years and he says it's work for him. As long as it doesn't cause any harm it's OK I guess. It can only help. The problem starts when you replace tried and tested treatment methods with placebo.

I know nothing about the science behind placebo but I can imagine that just the feeling of being able to be in control of your issue rather than helplessly not doing anything might help.

I guess the best way for a placebo to work is for someone in a position of authority to state that this will work. What authority works best depends on the individual though. For some it's scientific peer reviewed studies, for some it's religion and for some it's mass consensus. I guess you need faith for all of these.

Thanks Fuzzy12

I visit a Herbalist for an hour every 4-6 weeks or so, for over 5 years, not only am I learning about the long term benefits of herbal medicines.

I really enjoy visiting and the discussion about how I am doing with my Herbalist.

I think it is called transference?



H

mildadhd
04-10-16, 06:47 AM
I've heard that the placebo effect with sugar pills makes the patient feel better by reducing their symptoms (or perception of symptoms?) but it doesn't make the underlying problem heal.

I've heard that even when the patient was told they were receiving a sugar pill, that it often still had a positive effect.

Thanks BellaVita

There are early periods of development when some emotional approaches may actually prevented a condition, and during older periods of development when the condition has been more established longer term, when a medication may also be beneficial.




m

BellaVita
04-10-16, 06:50 AM
Thanks BellaVita

There are early periods of development when some approaches actually prevented a condition, and as we age during older periods of development when the conditions is more established longer term, when a medication may also be beneficial.




m

Some approaches with placebo prevented a condition?

When you say "medication" do you mean sugar pills or the real medication?

:)

BellaVita
04-10-16, 06:52 AM
This reminds me of when a kid has an owie and the mommy kisses the owie and suddenly poof it's all better. :)

mildadhd
04-10-16, 06:53 AM
Some approaches with placebo prevented a condition?

When you say "medication" do you mean sugar pills or the real medication?

:)

Prevented before established.

Medication like methyphenidate (SR)

mildadhd
04-10-16, 06:56 AM
This reminds me of when a kid has an owie and the mommy kisses the owie and suddenly poof it's all better. :)

Its really real.

Endogenous.

mildadhd
04-10-16, 06:59 AM
attachment and attunement (primary CARE system is a real system)

essential for healthy psychological development for all people.




S

Unmanagable
04-10-16, 09:59 AM
Hearing "placebo effect" always makes me think of the saying, "energy flows where the mind goes".

Going into something, if I already am convinced it won't work, I'm typically going to prove myself right, and vice-versa.

In my wellness pursuits of the last 5-ish years, I've experienced much relief in the things I used to totally avoid based on not enough documented evidence and strong opinions of anti-alternative peeps.

I can laugh now in hindsight as it all relates to self, but I also feel a strong sweeping sadness knowing how many others so heavily avoid what could bring so much relief based mainly on heavily funded misinformation and mainstream thought processes hammered into our brains through the years.

mildadhd
04-10-16, 11:17 AM
Hearing "placebo effect" always makes me think of the saying, "energy flows where the mind goes".

Going into something, if I already am convinced it won't work, I'm typically going to prove myself right, and vice-versa.

In my wellness pursuits of the last 5-ish years, I've experienced much relief in the things I used to totally avoid based on not enough documented evidence and strong opinions of anti-alternative peeps.

I can laugh now in hindsight as it all relates to self, but I also feel a strong sweeping sadness knowing how many others so heavily avoid what could bring so much relief based mainly on heavily funded misinformation and mainstream thought processes hammered into our brains through the years.

Thanks Unmanageable

I feel a strong sweeping sadness when ever I post about attachment and attunement and the thread discussion often goes quiet or in the direction of parent blaming.
The relationship between parent and parent and the relationship between parent and child provides some of the most powerful real emotional "tools" to prevent and/or treat ADHD. But the conditioned blame game rules over these terms and the bottom up "light" that these terms could really bring if explored, are rarely explored.



T

SB_UK
04-16-16, 12:03 PM
Do we need to maintain a parent-child attachment/attunement focus ?

Can we not extend the aetiology of ADHD to a failure in individual/individual attachment/attunement ?

The failure to form a social species.

Through a collective complete failure to realise what the mind is.

With the mind being the tool of social structure formation.

And the mind being (not anything to do with memory, language or abstract mathematical skills) - but the ability to tell right from wrong.

-*-

Collective attachment/attunement will occur naturally if we develop our defining highest evolutional property appropriately.

What would attachment/attunement actually mean in this context ?
Positive feelings in interaction with others.

A sense of wellbeing in interaction with others.


-*-

Thanks for the info on naltrexone antagonizing placebo.

That's extremely interesting.

-*-

Rational faith in a better future breeds calm.

At this point in time, in human evolutionary history - we're poised for a massive re-definition in that 'thing' which gets us out of bed in the morning.

The stick is about to become a carrot.

SB_UK
04-16-16, 12:22 PM
The general point being that belief determines opioid system activation.

Belief shifts from the tenuous logical to the deeply rational.
Faith shifts from the tenuous logical to the deeply rational.

By faith - I'm referring here to one's belief in, for instance, what the future might be like.

-*-

If we were to establish an unshakeable belief in the idea that the future would improve with every passing year - for each subsequent generation -

- then might we not apply the health promoting placebo of hope - in maintaining an individual's spiritual -> mental -> neural -> physical health.

Side-note - where's the line between spiritual and mental ?

Spiritual - the application of 'mental' towards an unceasing enquiry into morality.
Mental - filling one's head with ideas which are disconnected from worthwhile (defined as logically inconsistent with morality)

-*-

General point

That faith in the future is what minds built upon morality would acquire.
And that physical health would ensure.

That placebo operates through the opioid system.

That the opioid system is often linked with pain.

And that it's with an individual acquiring a mind without rational faith in the future - that the individual accelerates his/er own decline.

-*-

That although wisdom might be neuroprotective - that the wise individual within an unwise society will be diseases.

-*-

We are - and very much so - ensconced within a profoundly sick society.

-*-

Summarising

[1] How can we make the placebo effect last longer?
[2] What is the placebo effect?

[1] By an education which confers individuals with a topographically rich model of morality (by providing rational belief/faith)
[2] It's the equivalent of a p-value (the more significant) to wellbeing (the greater the effect); overwhelming belief in the future (but in the strict case of this thread on the nature of some medical intervention) resulting in overwhelming effect.

Effects born through activating the opioid system - switching off pain/distress - where distress lies as a causal trigger on all of the diseases we seek to eradicate.

With a deeply granular faith in the future - meaningful motivation arises - an individual develops 'meaning' to life - from which arises reward ... ... and the human being lives the life which was intended when first the mind emerged.

-*-

It's sad that human beings don't spend more time considering the remarkable nature of the human mind - how it emerged - and how special the evolutionary mechanism to permit something so unprecedented (as is the mark of evolution) to arise.

SB_UK
04-16-16, 12:28 PM
So ... ... in context of the human mind / brain.

I'm suggesting that we're in pain.

Until we develop a mind upon morality.

Which at some point takes us to the point of wisdom/enlightenment.

At which point we're freed from the need for stimulation to prevent us from boredom.

Having opened the doors to perception.

Presumably a mark of 'information' supplying us with reward sufficient.

To be contrasted with the Industrial age giving way to the Informational age ... ... which is just about to leap ahead with VR and portable holography.

Noting the beauty (generalized pattern) of tech emulating (precursor to) understandign of reality - ie that the holographic principle is a perfect description of reality.

A hidden informational structure within which what we call reality (duality structures - the standing wave - or male/female eversion) interact.

-*-

General idea - man has strived towards wisdom.

Upon attaining wisdom (a general consequence to the physics of 1900 - 1950) - it's likely that emergence will occur - whereby the subsequent emergent species (ADDers) will be granted the special property which the previous species gained at the end of its life-cycle (upon wisdom).

In our case - this represents informational sensitivity [as the property gained when our precursor species attained enlightenment].

We jump into Peripheral's homeostatic, sensory and emotional sensitivity.
Or systematizing, empathizing and sensory empathy as I've labelled it.

-*-

Core idea though - the emergence of a species which itself is characterized by a separation from the material world attachment which first afflicted precursor species.