View Full Version : Narcissism


thedman
05-13-05, 10:50 AM
I've read a few things on the web which say that ADHD could actually be Narcissistic Personality Disorder - but nothing I've read really explains why. It seems to me that ADHD and NPD are so totally different. I'd be grateful if anyone could explain the theory behind this or provide a link which explains the connections etc.

chain
05-13-05, 12:54 PM
Actually they are opposites. The NPD person does not have self and requires very strong cultural understandings to pull the full view of self from people around him/her. There is a very strong tendency towards role patterning and status seeking. People are status objects and sources of adoration.

The people that the Narcissist brings into their lives are only there as "supply". The narcissist will do anything to keep them in their life. If they remove their adoration from the narcissist, he/she will often turn violent.

The narcissist often does not have original ideas. They will grab onto the ideas of their supply and make them their own. ADD people constantly create new ideas.

ADD people are often the targets of the narcissist!



How would they be confused?

1. ADD is confused with every known type of "cultural" disorder. This is due to the nature of it *not being a disorder* in and of itself, but a cognitive type that has many challenges. (my view)

2. Most ADD people need context in order to understand their place in the world. (Most people know their place) Constant feedback is required for this. It often mimics mild narcissism. (Women often get the histrionic label)

3. Because we have lives of trying to fit in, there is sometimes and appearance that we are showoffs, or selfish. We just do not understand the rules. The narcissist does and uses them to get "supply".

How are ADD and NPD vastly different?

1. The narcissist has no self so he/she needs other people to tell them who they are. ADD people are filled with self, we need people to tell us "where we are"



2. The narcissist plays a very dishonest game to get supply. Targets are found, then the narcissist clings to them. The narcissist will be full of compliments that are not heartfelt. ADD people are usually too honest or are bad liars. We often give heartfelt compliments and statements that are considered rude (The narcissist is almost never rude)

3. The narcissist is hollow with a "glittery, shiny outside" ADDers are often unpolished with a "glittery, shiny, inside"

4. The narcissist is a creature of culture. The ADD person is often on the outside of culture.

I think it is the view that people who have full selves are somehow arrogant, therefore NPD...NPD has no self. Self, in the end is what is created in the mirror of other people's faces.



Serious Warning!

ADD attracts NPD!

ADD people often have many many run-ins with this type of person. The NPD type is very attracted to ADD. Lack of self sees full of self and runs for it. ADD is easily pulled in by this type. They seem shiny... They learn how to shine for you. We are an incredible source of supply and adoration.

Warning signs:
1. They play the victim constantly. Everyone is out to get them.
2. You get very hyperfocused on them...trying to find the person in the glitter
3. People you would not normally find interesting are fascinating...this is due the ability on the part of the narcissist to lure people in based on their "needs".
4. The narcissist will turn a very self sufficient ADD person into a love devoted slave.
5. They will get viciously angry (many times violent) when you withdraw...
6. The narcissist usually has a theme of self image that does not match deeds at all (earth mother who does not care about recycling, a caring father... who spends no time with his children... a very smart man who has no ideas of his own....look for these strong oppositions!
7. They tend to know many facts (in order to look smart) but can not tie them together


Finally, if you are in a relationship with a narcissist, run! They will suck you dry.

Here is the link to my model that shows where NPD lies on the continuum as predicted in my model.


http://www.contextualmind.org/wiki/index.php/IRCM

angelpie
05-13-05, 12:54 PM
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>Thereís the obvious point that both ADHD and NPD sufferers can often seem self absorbed but I think thatís probably the only similarity. I was actually told by an analyst that I had Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He went on to say that ADHD didnít exist and as far as I remember put it all down to children rebelling against their mothers who they loved/hated. I think most therapists donít like the idea that ďmind problems" may have a neurological basis.

angelpie
05-14-05, 07:37 AM
Chain, I can't get the link to your website to work

chain
05-14-05, 11:03 AM
Yep... I am trying to fix it. I have a problem in my wiki :)

crime_scene
05-14-05, 11:25 AM
If you want to read more about narcissism I also suggest visiting Dr. Sam Vaknin's site on Narcissism. He is himself a diagnosed narcissist and you will see the tendencies he describes about the NPD reflected in his own website.

I have personally had a run in with both a male and a female narcissist and I can smell them coming. They are not like people with ADD, and not anything like my best friend with ADHD or my cousin with ADD who are incredibly sweet and thoughtful people.

thedman
05-14-05, 11:51 AM
Chain,

That is a very clear and cogent explanation

Thank you so much

timh
05-14-05, 02:40 PM
Thanks Chain. Your post is so comforting to read. Right before my diagnosis of ADHD, I truely thought I was narcissistic. It was very disturbing. Then my psychiatrist diagnosed me as ADHD. I started reading up on ADHD and everything about my life started to make sense. From childhood to the present.

I like the section about being honest. I can not lie. If I do, which is almost never, I feel so guilty I have to come clean.

chain
05-14-05, 05:57 PM
Thanks Chain. Your post is so comforting to read. Right before my diagnosis of ADHD, I truely thought I was narcissistic. It was very disturbing. Then my psychiatrist diagnosed me as ADHD. I started reading up on ADHD and everything about my life started to make sense. From childhood to the present.

I like the section about being honest. I can not lie. If I do, which is almost never, I feel so guilty I have to come clean.
I had the same exact experience! This is a problem with DSM and psychology. They describe behaviors out of context. The context of AD/HD is vast! It is more vast than many people who are not AD/HD. So that little list of "symptoms" that cues a doctor into AD/HD does not lead them to the full understanding.

As AD/HD people...we have a tendancy to read everything we can... we are "self builders" because "self" is not given to us by the culture...We constantly look for flaws that need to be mended and psychology texts are sooo attractive, but they can be poison. Yes we do show behaviors that seem narcissistic but they are very soft in comparison. I have not met an ADDer yet who was not a compassionate soul... even the very angry ones end up caring... There are some people that, because the DSM is so vague, are not what I call IRCM but are diagnosed as ADD.

Some of them are narcissistic or sociopathic... they are distracted not because they are building context of their environment but because they are searching for supply or prey. These are quite rare... but always be on the lookout :)

ChaoticGenius
02-03-10, 03:55 PM
NARCISSISM AND ADHD ARE STRONGLY LINKED!

I explain why.

If you read narcissist traits descriptions you'll find that getting easily bored is a very typical narcissist trait. But as you know, this is exactly what ADHD is about.

In ADHD there is a dopamine deficit in the brain which leads the person to desperately find excitement - as a self cure. So these people end up being very short sighted. Always acting right away without thinking or planning.

Everybody wants to behave in beneficial ways for themselves. Things such as helping other people actually benefits the helper - in the long run. But because it is long sighted activity it is not perceived as selfish.

But ADHD personality's benefit seeking is very short sighted and therefore it can be easily perceived as selfish.

ADHD people are excitement seekers. Only the extreme makes them to feel alive - filling our thirsty brains with dopamine and norepinephrine orgasms. Then we get a lot of it in contrast to "idle"-time where we are lacking it.

This where we differ from the usual people, whose dopamine and norepinephrine balance is satisfied by daily *boring* routines.

ADHD people are often rally drivers, musicians, rock stars, fanatic computer programmers. Those are usually extremities in the sense that in order to thrive or be extranordinaly good, it really needs a hyper-focused mind, which ADHD-patients do have when they are engaged in extrem activities that soak their otherwise dopamine-thirsty brains. It is the continuous challenge that makes them feel alive!

It is sometimes a case that a person with ADHD pursues excitement at working place - in a form of competition - is perceived as a narcissist by others.

This means, a narcissist is likely to have an ADHD personality but not necessarily other way round.

Me, myself having ADHD, I have been through all this. At one working place, I almost ruined the company in my pursue of power, secretly overtaking all the time bigger shares. For me, it was an excting power game, but now, thinking afterwards, after they fired me,
it must have been a ruining period for the colleagues.

Beyond this, I tell you I have all the typical ADHD traits, being extremely scatter-minded, losing keys, credit cards etc. almost daily, I often feel I have difficulties in understanding social situations - forgetting meetings etc, and then falling again and again into a hyper focused state, where I just start programming a computer and when I stand up, hours have passed without me noticing it. I fail to understand people's feelings. It makes me often confused, I don't understand why people get so angry at me accusing of weird things.

To confront people telling all the time I did something wrong and was careless I have to options
1) be apologetic of everything
2) deny every accusation and go on

The second one, it is a typical method by an ADHD personality to confront the environment with which they are always in conflict -because they don't really understand it. It makes the life easier. Just stop minding that you do everything wrong without understanding why - that is - that turns you into what others consider a narcissist, in the best case a psychopath

Programming computer - it feels me with excitement and challenge, no more power games, I don't want to do harm to anybody.

I just need to feel I am alive.

Yours,
The narcissist ADHD

mike91163
02-03-10, 04:35 PM
ChaoticGenius:

I STRONGLY disagree with your assertions.

There is an extremely large difference between Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and a person who has some, and/or mild, narcissistic tendencies.

You mention that a person with undiagnosed ADHD may choose to "deny" that they have "done wrong"...and that others may perceive us as narcissists. Possibly; but, this "denial" is fairly well known as a coping mechanism, and, most importantly, the ADHD person "internalizes" the conflict--"What is wrong with me? What can't I finish projects? Why am I always late?"

ON THE OTHER HAND, the TRUE narcissist / NPD person believes in their mind that they have done NOTHING wrong-period, end of story. There is no internal debate going on in their head.

NPDs get mad at everyone else when "it's not all about" them;

ADHDs get annoyed at themselves for not fitting in.

NPDs rage violently when their "supply" gets cut off (relationship ends);

ADHDs mourn the loss of someone close to them.

Can the two disorders be co-morbid? Probably...but that would be a rare and awfully scary beast!

However, to attempt to link or label ALL ADHD persons as narcissists is damaging, blatantly false...and, as Chain mentions in his post, NPDs can spot an ADHD a mile away, and suck the life out of them...I know, because I'm living it, and have for 20 years...so your ridiculous suggestion is truly a slap in the face.

squeekybrain
02-03-10, 04:51 PM
ChaoticGenius:

I STRONGLY disagree with your assertions.

There is an extremely large difference between Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and a person who has some, and/or mild, narcissistic tendencies.

ON THE OTHER HAND, the TRUE narcissist / NPD person believes in their mind that they have done NOTHING wrong-period, end of story. There is no internal debate going on in their head.

I couldn't agree more.

Asylum
02-03-10, 07:02 PM
I personally can't see any link between a narcissistic person and a person with add. Granted i haven't met many of either. I think i've met a few of the former and i find them really awfull! They're the opposite of what i like in people. A lot of adders out have that kind of, almost painfully sensitive personality, that over empathising, always getting emeshed in other people 'thing'. I'm not sure how to explain it correctly. But i would have thought that would clash badly with the self-centred narcissistic. If you stuck 20 adders and 20 narcissistic people in a big room together i'm guessing it would be awhile before they could wash the blood of the walls.

Or are you only talking about adders with hyperactivity? Maybe that why i can't see the connect, because i only know what its like to have innattentive add. Are you a narcissist? Is that why you think all or most adders are also?

sarek
02-03-10, 07:28 PM
I know in general terms what you are all saying. I have met one person who shows all kinds of danger signs of both narcissism and bpd and its a combo made in that nasty place that is full of fire and brimstone.
And i can testify to the fact that adders are prime targets for this kind of people. If you are not very careful you can get badly burned.

mike91163
02-03-10, 07:37 PM
Asylum, I don't see any link either...and I sure don't get how you can connect "seeking excitement" and risk-taking with narcissism.

Hyperactives seeking that dopamine rush via those activities have nothing to do with NPD.

Asylum
02-03-10, 08:47 PM
I didn't say that, you have your posts mixed up.

daveddd
02-03-10, 10:50 PM
narcissism is a defense mechanism , thats all that all personality disorders are

any mental disorder will warrant the use of a defense mechanism or two

especially people with low self esteem

in most cases when the main problem is treated the defense mechanisms will start to fade , especially with therapy

mike91163
02-03-10, 11:21 PM
I didn't say that, you have your posts mixed up.

My apologies for creating a misunderstanding...what I meant by "I don't see any link either" was that I was agreeing with your comment "I personally can't see any link between a narcissistic person and a person with add".

Also, my use of the word "you" here: "and I sure don't get how you can connect "seeking excitement" and risk-taking with narcissism" wasn't referring to you (asylum) specifically...rather, I was being sarcastic towards ChaoticGenius' post.

Again, sorry for the poor phrasing...and let me say that I agree 100% with all of the points you made in your post.

Archon
02-04-10, 03:08 AM
Narcissists don't feel guilt, only shame, that's the easiest way to tell if you're a narcissist.

in most cases when the main problem is treated the defense mechanisms will start to fade , especially with therapy

There is no therapy for narcissistic personality disorder. It generally is pretty pervasive.

ChaoticGenius, you are wrong, feel free to ask why.

daveddd
02-04-10, 08:37 AM
Narcissists don't feel guilt, only shame, that's the easiest way to tell if you're a narcissist.



There is no therapy for narcissistic personality disorder. It generally is pretty pervasive.

ChaoticGenius, you are wrong, feel free to ask why.

correct no therapy for true narcissm, but in most cases it is a defense mechanism that fades when the main disorder is treated

ill dig up the references for you

mike91163
02-04-10, 10:24 AM
correct no therapy for true narcissm, but in most cases it is a defense mechanism that fades when the main disorder is treated

ill dig up the references for you

Dave, I respectfully disagree with your "most cases" assertion. I will concede that mild NPD may be co-morbid/secondary with such disorders as depression, hypomania, and substance abuse...and indeed, in those treatable cases, yes, the NPD should diminsh.

On the other hand, NPD is very often co-morbid with all of the Cluster B disorders: Antisocial/Psychopath, Histrionic, Borderline, and Narcissistic. Unfortunately, ALL of the Cluster Bs are well-known for being extremely treatment-resistant:

---Medications have not helped, as science thusfar has been unable to isolate any particular chemical imbalances that might be linked to these disorders;

---While there is evidence suggesting that Cognitive and Dialectical Behaviorial Therapy can help with Histrionics and Borderlines, the success rates are not very good, and said success requires intensive, long term therapy (upwards of 5-10 years for Borderlines).

Further, while the exact causes of the Cluster Bs are unknown, it has been fairly well established that a persistent pattern of childhood trauma (emotional, verbal, physical and/or sexual) usually exists in persons presenting with a Cluster B disorder. Also, since these patterns have been "ingrained" into the individual's psyche from a very young age, "undoing" the damage, and rebuilding their self-image requires intensive and lengthy psychotherapy (as mentioned above)...and even the best-case outcomes are questionable at best.

AliKatski
02-04-10, 10:53 AM
any mental disorder will warrant the use of a defense mechanism or two

And, as ADDers, we use and are able to build a huge amount of defense mechanisms.

However, no ADDer I have ever met has used narcissism as a defense mechanism. It is so very against our own personalities and ways of thinking that to use it as a defense mechanism would throw us into a self-induced psychosis - I am the best but I've been screwing up my entire life.

ADHD has absolutely nothing to do with NPD. Sure, we have some very good qualities, but these are pretty much negated by the disadvantages. ADDers, even hyperactives, are generally very humble and warm at heart. Narcissists are cold, distant and arrogant.

I also am able to spot a narcissist a mile away, and it's one of the few things that I hate.

daveddd
02-04-10, 05:15 PM
And, as ADDers, we use and are able to build a huge amount of defense mechanisms.

However, no ADDer I have ever met has used narcissism as a defense mechanism. It is so very against our own personalities and ways of thinking that to use it as a defense mechanism would throw us into a self-induced psychosis - I am the best but I've been screwing up my entire life.

ADHD has absolutely nothing to do with NPD. Sure, we have some very good qualities, but these are pretty much negated by the disadvantages. ADDers, even hyperactives, are generally very humble and warm at heart. Narcissists are cold, distant and arrogant.

I also am able to spot a narcissist a mile away, and it's one of the few things that I hate.


any one with low self esteem can use narcissism as a defense mechanism

and you cant spot a narcissist a mile away , not a covert narcissist

adhd is actually often comorbid with npd and to a larger extent psychopaths

and im quoting my pdoc mainly , not the wikipedia

daveddd
02-04-10, 05:46 PM
Dave, I respectfully disagree with your "most cases" assertion. I will concede that mild NPD may be co-morbid/secondary with such disorders as depression, hypomania, and substance abuse...and indeed, in those treatable cases, yes, the NPD should diminsh.

On the other hand, NPD is very often co-morbid with all of the Cluster B disorders: Antisocial/Psychopath, Histrionic, Borderline, and Narcissistic. Unfortunately, ALL of the Cluster Bs are well-known for being extremely treatment-resistant:

---Medications have not helped, as science thusfar has been unable to isolate any particular chemical imbalances that might be linked to these disorders;

---While there is evidence suggesting that Cognitive and Dialectical Behaviorial Therapy can help with Histrionics and Borderlines, the success rates are not very good, and said success requires intensive, long term therapy (upwards of 5-10 years for Borderlines).

Further, while the exact causes of the Cluster Bs are unknown, it has been fairly well established that a persistent pattern of childhood trauma (emotional, verbal, physical and/or sexual) usually exists in persons presenting with a Cluster B disorder. Also, since these patterns have been "ingrained" into the individual's psyche from a very young age, "undoing" the damage, and rebuilding their self-image requires intensive and lengthy psychotherapy (as mentioned above)...and even the best-case outcomes are questionable at best.


you are 110% right

better wording would have been , most cases where somebody (who isnt a doc) relates the symptoms of narcissim to themselves or others , via an internet website

Lunacie
02-04-10, 06:12 PM
Shoot - I'm going to have to get my own copy of Answers to Distraction (by Ed Hallowell and John Ratey MDs). I just finished reading it and took it back to the library - and I remember reading something in there about how ADD may look like Narcissism but is actually quite different. But I didn't make any notes on that issue and don't remember what the doctors said to explain the differences.

Missi
02-04-10, 07:49 PM
Having lived with ADD as an adult for 20 years now and participating in my own virtual destruction, I have questioned my own 'narcissistic' tendencies in the past few months. But I can attribute these behaviors and attitudes to my being at the end of my rope, not being a true narcissist. I'm exhausted. I can't keep up, yet we live in a society that demands daily that we keep up with the status quo.

The key components of a narcissist are not the same as a person with ADD, but yes, there are some behaviors and symptoms that appear to be similar at a glance.

I do not have delusions of power and success, I run from it. I want to succeed only so I can pay my bills. I have no aspirations to do more than that, I have enough trouble waking up to my alarm lately. Any delusions I built over the years were told to me repeatedly by others that I was talented, gifted, intelligent, etc... I only thought I was average and didn't want to be more until parents, teachers, friends told me I could and should.

The trouble is, many of us are above average intelligence. Not a delusion, a fact. Many of us are extremely creative. Not a delusion, we're artists, idea people, etc... again, things that those around us told us repeatedly until we finally started to believe it a little. I never wanted to be anything, others told me I had so much, it'd be a shame to waste it. Well, that's all fine and good, except they expect me to do all of the things they accomplish daily in addition to being highly creative. I fail miserably at what they accomplish. I know that. I beat myself up every day for it.

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:


Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652/DSECTION=symptoms

I minimize any success I've had and only see my life as a dismal failure. I don't believe anyone has reason to admire me, yet, in the scope of things, I'm a pretty good person. Jealous of others? Only because they have a clean house and balance their checkbook, ya know? I believe I'm special because I've never shown up on time in my life, others do that regularly. So, yeah, I'm special alright, I have an innate inability to 'do it right.' I'm one of the most emotionally sensitive people I know in terms of reading others' correctly. I'm not making this up, group therapists have told me this. And I do have people in my life that are completely clueless to other's feelings and emotions, so I know what that looks like. I never set unrealistic goals, only the one's that average people meet and exceed, yet I do not, so as a rule, I try not to set goals at all.

So no, I have no exaggerated sense of self, if anything, others' exaggerate my capabilities and hold me to high standards, I buy into it and I fail. But it never came from me to begin with. After all of these years and not being able to keep up, yeah, sometimes I act like it just doesn't matter because if I act like it does matter, then 'they' expect me to change and do and get it right and ask for more the next time. And quite frankly, I'm tired of not measuring up, tired of trying to explain myself, just plain tired of this rat race called life. So yeah, it's getting much easier to act like I don't care; it's a learned response, not innate.

They may look similar at a glance, but I purport they're not at all the same. Narcissism is 'I can.' ADD is 'okay, I'll try it again, but I don't believe I can.' Narcissism is 'gather round.' ADD is 'go away.' Narcissism is blowing smoke, ADD is being held to a fire and feeling like you're burning alive.

Uh, I guess you can consider this my introductory post :D Hi everyone *waves*

scarygreengiant
02-05-10, 12:01 AM
Personally, I don't think there's a connection between true narcissistic personality disorder and ADHD. Of course I think it's definitely possible to have both ADHD and NPD in the same way that it's possible to have both diabetes and ADHD. But there's no connection between the two conditions in my opinion.

I think that some ADHDers might develop traits that resemble narcissism as a defense mechanism. For example if everyone is rejecting you and thinking that you're stupid you will hopefully try to resist that and not allow those naysayers to bring you down. But maybe some people go a little too far with it and instead of saying, "No I am NOT stupid, I am a good person" it veers into the territory of "ADHD is a gift and those boring neurotypical drones are just to conformist and narrowminded to see just how intelligent and creative I am." Saying stuff like that does come off as a bit narcissistic.

scarygreengiant
02-05-10, 12:16 AM
The trouble is, many of us are above average intelligence. Not a delusion, a fact. Many of us are extremely creative. Not a delusion, we're artists, idea people, etc... again,"

But doesn't that start to resemble narcissism though? Don't get me wrong, I am angry that people have written me off as lazy and stupid. It is completely unfair. But to make broad generalizations about being smarter and more creative than everyone else is bordering on arrogant. Although I see it more as a defense mechanism for the years of self-esteem assasination we've endured rather than true narcissism. That doesn't make it right though.

With 6 billion in the world how do we define who is more intelligent or creative? Intelligence and creativity are very vague, ambiguous, and subjective concepts. Especially creativity. With intelligence you could use IQ tests to define a person as being more intelligent if you believe in those tests (personally, I don't trust IQ tests all that much). Creativity is even harder to define. My brother is a "neurotypical" and he is one of the smartest and most "outside the box" thinkers that I know. It's not fair to generalize.

In the end we are all people, not ADHDers, but people. Some people who have ADHD are kind and wonderful and some people who have ADHD are thoughtless jerks. We have many many many variations in our personalities and talents and strengths and weaknesses just as any other population, whether it be "neurotypical" people, people with schizophrenia, people with aspergers, etc.

mike91163
02-05-10, 02:53 AM
you are 110% right

better wording would have been , most cases where somebody (who isnt a doc) relates the symptoms of narcissim to themselves or others , via an internet website

Dave, perhaps I may just be interpreting what you wrote above wrong-that you're simply referring to yourself ("somebody")-but, as I read it, you're making one helluva back-handed insult to me. Now, why might I think that?

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76602

Here, you managed to post something so offensive to the OP that your posts were removed...and the OP's comments?

"What? I never snorted anything....I was looking for serious answers or advice and that wasn't very helpful in the least. Or appreciated...I really don't appreciate the comment about popping either. I was looking for help on what to do in a situation where others are drinking, and I may be pressured to join them....I don't think it's helpful for anyone to downplay others' addictions or recovery...You can continue to make unhelpful comments and we can continue to argue back and forth over our ideals and what we think is right or wrong."

And from another poster in the thread: "I've used this phrase often in certain contexts, and here it seems appropriate as well. You're painting with an awfully broad brush, Dave. I don't know what caused musicpainter to go into treatment, and frankly, I don't care. Your off-the-cuff statement were both ill timed, and inappropriate."

And your reply: "sorry about offending you most addicts / alchololics i know can take things like that with a grain of salt

how i should of said it was

most addicts recovering from ANY drug who put themselves in a situation where there is alcohol and doubt themselves will drink

even though alcohol wasnt your problem it will trigger reward centers in your brain , thus waking up cravings for your drug of choice that you have worked so hard to put out of your mind

again didnt mean to offend you , ive been quite short lately do to some med adjustments"

And, here:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76654

"Originally Posted by Imnapl http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=823593#post823593)
I agree with the DSM diagnostic criteria for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.


but it doesnt fit the ops scenario"

To which, Imnapl replies: "The original post was so brief, how can you tell if she was describing OCD? There's another active thread about Oppositional Defiant Disorder that might tweak your fancy. "

And in turn, you write: "i thought your description of ocd was hers

your right i put my keys in the same place everytime

i must be ocd too"

One more:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77837

After I had asked the OP a handful of questions about his relationship with his wife, and the OP replied with lengthy answers, I posted back, discussing the possibility of BPD and/or NPD...and gave specific reasons why I felt this way...basing it upon clear-cut DSM definitions, as well as my own personal experiences with my wife for 20+ years. Yet...

You wrote: "im not suprised by this at all

i wouldnt jump into any personality disorders just yet

she has taken on a codependent role in your mental illness, remember she didnt start off this way she grew into it

she has become a mother to you so to speak

when you started to get better it freaked her out because she feared she will lose her identity(happens all the time with drug addicts-another mental illness)

she WILL need some kind of support or therapy, or else it will not change permanently, a proper two sided relationship will have to become a learned behavior by the both of you

i stated all this as if it were fact but it was just an opinion"

Now, on to my points.

1--Perhaps Imnapl was on to something when they mentioned Oppositional Defiant...clearly, from the examples above, it seems like no matter what someone says, you frequently feel the need to deny / denigrate their viewpoint...and, with a heaping dose of sarcasm to boot! ("keys in the same place, so I must be OCD too"..."I stated all this as if it were fact but it was just an opinion"...)

2--In the first example, you "apologize" by saying "again didnt mean to offend you , ive been quite short lately do to some med adjustments" Wait a minute..OK, us ADDers are known to blurt out inappropriate things VERBALLY...but, c'mon, this is an Internet forum, where you have to type your words...and you have an opportunity to review your words before hitting the "Submit Reply" button. Quite frankly, to blame a medication change for your (apparently) offensive post is awfully lame.

I joined this forum/website to both learn as much as I could from other people who have ADD, to share my life's experiences in totality (ADD issues, marriage issues, etc.), and to help others with their problems, based primarily upon my experiences, and knowledge of subjects near and dear to me. I can easily engage in a reasoned and thoughtful debate (for example, the "ADD isn't a disorder...understand the truth" thread); I can also, in a respectful manner, disagree with a post, and explain my reasons; lastly, I can admit that I am wrong in a sincere manner. BUT, I will not tolerate sarcastic comments directed towards a poster; nor will I accept half-hearted "apologies" that only serve to mock the recipient. In many cases, like the 3rd example above, we are dealing with people who are in CRISIS; there's nothing funny about it-they are asking for, and need, our help, not smart-aleck remarks. Maybe your marriage is fine (not true, considering the whole "pill-cutting" thread with you and your wife), maybe you see humor in that, but many of us here are dealing with both problems and damage that WE have caused, and in some cases, very abusive spouses. This is serious business, my friend, and being cute has no place.

I apologize to the rest of the board for this lengthy rant...I'm not looking to start a flame war, but jeez, I'm just here trying to help others, not get beaten down and laughed at!

Mike

meadd823
02-05-10, 03:25 AM
I do not think there is a link but being married to an ADHD man myself I can certainly see why many might mistake some ADDers traits to being narcissist.

How many times NTer complain about how the ADD spouse can focus on a vedio game for four hours yet zone out of a serious discussion in less than five minutes - The fact that we an pay attention to things we find interesting but can't make ourselves focus on stuff we are not - We remember to watch the game but forget her birthday - I agree with the person above who said that having both is a possibility but that doesn't necessarily mean they are connect

daveddd
02-05-10, 08:58 AM
mike

when i said that i was not thinking of your post , ive was thinking of the fact that anyone adhd or not can read any personality disorder and fit themselves into it, i do it to

and i also know to people without adhd who dont spend hours on the internet researching mental disorders tend to get very annoyed when you start diagnosing them with random disorders they may or may not have (i know this for a fact)

i also know its impossible to diagnosis someone over the internet based on a paragraph about their life, especially since we are not doctors

i am not a big forum guy as a matter a fact ive never written in one besides this , so i tend to speak like i do i real life , forgetting that i dont know people and there is no tone to my voice

i do see my therapist alot , she is very smart and tells me alot not to dx myself off the internet , so maybe what im saying is usually based off MY personal experience

so maybe the dx is correct , maybe i do have odd

Missi
02-05-10, 12:28 PM
But doesn't that start to resemble narcissism though? Don't get me wrong, I am angry that people have written me off as lazy and stupid. It is completely unfair. But to make broad generalizations about being smarter and more creative than everyone else is bordering on arrogant. Although I see it more as a defense mechanism for the years of self-esteem assasination we've endured rather than true narcissism. That doesn't make it right though.

No, it's not narcissism, I'm basing this on my own life experience and 'research' in the form of therapy, observation, and reading. Statistics aren't narcissistic or arrogant, statistics are merely the gathering and crunching of numbers. We have a standard method of measuring IQ and I am in the top percentiles along with many many other AD/HD people. It's not boasting, it's fact, and it's not one I wear on a lapel button, it's something I discuss in places like this where I can be honest about 'why am I a dismal failure' when this, this, and this points to the fact I should be a huge success in life?

Again, this has been drilled into my head by parents, teachers, professors over years of them testing, observing, and interacting with me and my interacting with my peers. After so many years, I was left literally saying, 'something is wrong with me.' I've taken the frickin' IQ test 3 times, all as an adult with many years in between: once as a favor for a grad student, once for fun watching some game show just to see if it was accurate since I knew my score, and once during my battery of testing for ADD diagnosis. Each time gives the same result within 3 points. So, in addition to having my own experience in life in which I can have periods of high performance, in which I shine and sometimes out-perform many of those around me, I have this score to back it up, not to mention ACT scores. But then I have school grades that span the letter and point system with no rhyme or reason. And the end result is the same, 'something is wrong with me' and I live with constant internal pain, effort, and internal/external chaos that has taken me years to realize clearly that not everyone experiences- and the kicker is, it's all a result of my own actions. It's compelling and perplexing, no?

As for the creativity, again, experience. I'm a lifelong artist who went on to 3 years at a 4 year college, 1 1/2 years at a small private art school, and another 2 years at a 4 year college. There's no doubt I'm extremely talented, they told me so. I put my work up on the wall with my classmates. I wasn't always 'the best' but there's no doubt of my gifts and talents. So the only question is, "why can't I succeed?" Because the truth of this matter is there are a vast number of people who score lower and are less creative who are hugely successful in life. If we're looking at different statistics: completion rates, income, stability... I drop off the bottom of those charts. The ways in which we determine potential success points to the fact I should be on one end of the spectrum when in fact, I'm on the opposite side... so I want to know why. Not merely for my own benefit, but for those that are going to follow in my footsteps and suffer the same path if we don't come up with the answers and solutions.

If it's not obvious, the other half of my education was spent in psychology and sociology classes ;) so yes, I want to find a solution and I am glad I found others here like me. I spend my life feeling like an untethered balloon hoping somehow, I'll find something that will anchor me.

With 6 billion in the world how do we define who is more intelligent or creative? Intelligence and creativity are very vague, ambiguous, and subjective concepts.

I agree, all I'm saying is that the testing we presently use points me in one direction, but my own experience in one way, confirms, but in another way denies these measures are substantial. I may not score as high on tests designed in the future, but I don't think I'm going to simply wake up one day and be slow to learn or understand the ins and outs of this society, and I'm not lacking acuity today. I have no trouble admitting there are people out there who score higher, are more intelligent, or who are successful for whatever reason. But again, why can't I succeed when so many with equal and lesser talents can? What am I missing? I know I have some additional gifts not everyone has and I know they have something that makes them able to function that I'm clearly lacking. I'm not saying give me a position or pay me more simply because I'm smart or place me on a pedestal because I can paint a pretty picture. I don't want notoriety or an award. I'm simply begging someone to mete out some tools that I can utilize so that I don't end up completely isolated and living homeless in a cave one day, because our current societal structure, coupled with my own history and feelings in no way rules this out as an end result. That's effing scarey!

So the last question is, do you think I'm a narcissist or do you think I need an anti-depressant/ADD med adjustment? :o

daveddd
02-05-10, 12:37 PM
No, it's not narcissism, I'm basing this on my own life experience and 'research' in the form of therapy, observation, and reading. Statistics aren't narcissistic or arrogant, statistics are merely the gathering and crunching of numbers. We have a standard method of measuring IQ and I am in the top percentiles along with many many other AD/HD people. It's not boasting, it's fact, and it's not one I wear on a lapel button, it's something I discuss in places like this where I can be honest about 'why am I a dismal failure' when this, this, and this points to the fact I should be a huge success in life?

Again, this has been drilled into my head by parents, teachers, professors over years of them testing, observing, and interacting with me and my interacting with my peers. After so many years, I was left literally saying, 'something is wrong with me.' I've taken the frickin' IQ test 3 times, all as an adult with many years in between: once as a favor for a grad student, once for fun watching some game show just to see if it was accurate since I knew my score, and once during my battery of testing for ADD diagnosis. Each time gives the same result within 3 points. So, in addition to having my own experience in life in which I can have periods of high performance, in which I shine and sometimes out-perform many of those around me, I have this score to back it up, not to mention ACT scores. But then I have school grades that span the letter and point system with no rhyme or reason. And the end result is the same, 'something is wrong with me' and I live with constant internal pain, effort, and internal/external chaos that has taken me years to realize clearly that not everyone experiences- and the kicker is, it's all a result of my own actions. It's compelling and perplexing, no?

As for the creativity, again, experience. I'm a lifelong artist who went on to 3 years at a 4 year college, 1 1/2 years at a small private art school, and another 2 years at a 4 year college. There's no doubt I'm extremely talented, they told me so. I put my work up on the wall with my classmates. I wasn't always 'the best' but there's no doubt of my gifts and talents. So the only question is, "why can't I succeed?" Because the truth of this matter is there are a vast number of people who score lower and are less creative who are hugely successful in life. If we're looking at different statistics: completion rates, income, stability... I drop off the bottom of those charts. The ways in which we determine potential success points to the fact I should be on one end of the spectrum when in fact, I'm on the opposite side... so I want to know why. Not merely for my own benefit, but for those that are going to follow in my footsteps and suffer the same path if we don't come up with the answers and solutions.

If it's not obvious, the other half of my education was spent in psychology and sociology classes ;) so yes, I want to find a solution and I am glad I found others here like me. I spend my life feeling like an untethered balloon hoping somehow, I'll find something that will anchor me.



I agree, all I'm saying is that the testing we presently use points me in one direction, but my own experience in one way, confirms, but in another way denies these measures are substantial. I may not score as high on tests designed in the future, but I don't think I'm going to simply wake up one day and be slow to learn or understand the ins and outs of this society, and I'm not lacking acuity today. I have no trouble admitting there are people out there who score higher, are more intelligent, or who are successful for whatever reason. But again, why can't I succeed when so many with equal and lesser talents can? What am I missing? I know I have some additional gifts not everyone has and I know they have something that makes them able to function that I'm clearly lacking. I'm not saying give me a position or pay me more simply because I'm smart or place me on a pedestal because I can paint a pretty picture. I don't want notoriety or an award. I'm simply begging someone to mete out some tools that I can utilize so that I don't end up completely isolated and living homeless in a cave one day, because our current societal structure, coupled with my own history and feelings in no way rules this out as an end result. That's effing scarey!

So the last question is, do you think I'm a narcissist or do you think I need an anti-depressant/ADD med adjustment? :o

good post

more thoroughly say s what i mean when i said alot of us use narcissist defense mechanisms because of our conditions

and MOST of us dont have npd

a bit of narcissism is healthy

AliKatski
02-05-10, 03:05 PM
Self-administered confidence boosts are ok, and even positive thinking can help the most severe of cases, but narcissism is never healthy if we are hoping to engage in society.

Dave, read this: http://www.addforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=75&a=90. It's a guide to how you should behave on the forum. It might help reduce the amount of conflict you receive - making it easier and more productive for you.

carped1em
02-05-10, 10:47 PM
NPD or borderline with narcissistic tendencies diagnosis followed me everywhere!!

I have always been extreme in everything, whether I meant to be or not. I would see things that looked interesting and want to try them out. If I liked it, hyperfocus took over and my brain turned into a sponge instead of a collandar and I "rainman(ed)" the he%% out of it. It had nothing to do with competition, status or compliments.

I was also raised in a VERY old school style manners family. My parents owned ad agencies and were journalism majors, we started doing commercials and modeling for them and eventually professionally through an agency from a very early age so vocabulary, social relationships and appearance were their life breath and as a result, necessary to their offspring as well.
When I compliment people I mean it, when I say I like something, I really like it, I don't do anything just to glom on to people or for adoration. I don't have the energy to waste trying to be anything other than focused or the tracking capacity to remeber stuff like that unless it's true.
Because weird things jump out at me, for example I notice some colors that look good on people more than others, or a different piece of jewlery, cool shoes, something random on their desk. It pushes everything else out for a second and whatever I observe usually pops out of my mouth. It's always happened that way and it happens alot. Couple that with a person who genuinely enjoyed people and talked wayyy too much sometimes, you have what appears to be empty compliments.

All combined I could see, in my case at least, how that mistake could/can be made. What they didn't see was my messy hair, mismatched socks, forgotten shoes & stained shirts that were fixed by the kit full of extra everything to be changed into, brushed and applied just minutes before walking in.
I've carried one in my own cars as an adult & yes I still forget shoes sometimes.
Horrific tantrums as a child before family gatherings, school events, shoots or fashion shows and the day long emotional preparation necessary before any presentation, interview, date or social gathering as an adult.
I've never learned how to be comfortable with recognition or compliments because that meant people were paying attention to me & would start to notice how weird I am.

daveddd
02-05-10, 10:57 PM
have always been extreme in everything, whether I meant to be or not. I would see things that looked interesting and want to try them out. If I liked it, hyperfocus took over and my brain turned into a sponge instead of a collandar and I "rainman(ed)" the he%% out of it. It had nothing to do with competition, status or compliments.


very much like me

carped1em
02-06-10, 03:35 AM
It's surreal to find the ultra frequent commonalities & familiarities between myself and other people's traits, behaviors & experiences that I've read on this site.

Galileo
02-06-10, 04:09 AM
It's surreal to find the ultra frequent commonalities & familiarities between myself and other people's traits, behaviors & experiences that I've read on this site.

Yeah, no kidding! It's like a weird dream. Of course, being 3am here and having been on the site for hours now, everything's starting to seem a bit trippy :)

carped1em
02-06-10, 06:17 AM
Here here!! And now for something completely different...I'm going to try to sleep!

Missi
02-06-10, 04:07 PM
good post

more thoroughly say s what i mean when i said alot of us use narcissist defense mechanisms because of our conditions

and MOST of us dont have npd

a bit of narcissism is healthy

I see. Thanks but no thanks for the thanks.

Years ago, when I'd just finished treatment and first started going to 12 step meetings, I had just enough info to make me dangerous. I'd freely misdiagnose and wield my whip of new found knowledge on practically anyone who happened to cross my path. Fortunately, further education and life experience knocked me off my pedestal of over-inflated misunderstanding, which leaves me feeling rather hopeful in this case.

daveddd
02-06-10, 04:42 PM
I see. Thanks but no thanks for the thanks.

Years ago, when I'd just finished treatment and first started going to 12 step meetings, I had just enough info to make me dangerous. I'd freely misdiagnose and wield my whip of new found knowledge on practically anyone who happened to cross my path. Fortunately, further education and life experience knocked me off my pedestal of over-inflated misunderstanding, which leaves me feeling rather hopeful in this case.

thats what i was saying , everyone has a bit a narcissism in them

but diagnosing everybody is annoying

but i will retract my thanks

daveddd
02-06-10, 05:04 PM
now i see why i always come off as a jerk (even though sometimes i am)

when i said dx ing everyone is annoying , i am mainly referring to myslef

i am not clear, sorry for that

ADHDTigger
02-06-10, 05:11 PM
To be filed under "Your Mileage may Vary"...

One of the things that I have noticed in becoming active on this board is how anxiously some of us will try out a label to see if it fits. ADHD treatment not being a perfect thing, it is as if we are looking for a SOMETHING that will just explain away all the rest of the stuff swirling in our heads that the medication, diet, exercise, brain training, and everything else we do doesn't begin to touch. We don't want excuses, we want a line in the sand and a list to manage to. We want to know what the heck is wrong in the belief that we can somehow find the right combination of things that will FIX it already!

All that coupled with all the wonderful names we have been called or the not-so-nice things we have heard about ourselves all our lives and I do believe many of us would cheerfully self identify as serial killers if it would only give us a course of treatment that worked and did so dependably.

If you are truly of the belief that Narcissism is an element of your issues, by all means seek diagnosis. But there simply is no "one size fits all" with ADHD. Not that I have ever discovered, anyway.

ADHDTigger
02-06-10, 05:14 PM
now i see why i always come off as a jerk (even though sometimes i am)

when i said dx ing everyone is annoying , i am mainly referring to myslef

i am not clear, sorry for that

Dave, you said yourself that this is the only forum you have been active on. It takes time to discover your "voice" when you have only text to work with.

I've seen your posts since you started here. You have improved more than you give yourself credit for.

Missi
02-06-10, 11:53 PM
now i see why i always come off as a jerk (even though sometimes i am)

when i said dx ing everyone is annoying , i am mainly referring to myslef

i am not clear, sorry for that

LOL, truce :)

daveddd
02-07-10, 12:30 PM
Dave, I respectfully disagree with your "most cases" assertion. I will concede that mild NPD may be co-morbid/secondary with such disorders as depression, hypomania, and substance abuse...and indeed, in those treatable cases, yes, the NPD should diminsh.

On the other hand, NPD is very often co-morbid with all of the Cluster B disorders: Antisocial/Psychopath, Histrionic, Borderline, and Narcissistic. Unfortunately, ALL of the Cluster Bs are well-known for being extremely treatment-resistant:

---Medications have not helped, as science thusfar has been unable to isolate any particular chemical imbalances that might be linked to these disorders;

---While there is evidence suggesting that Cognitive and Dialectical Behaviorial Therapy can help with Histrionics and Borderlines, the success rates are not very good, and said success requires intensive, long term therapy (upwards of 5-10 years for Borderlines).

Further, while the exact causes of the Cluster Bs are unknown, it has been fairly well established that a persistent pattern of childhood trauma (emotional, verbal, physical and/or sexual) usually exists in persons presenting with a Cluster B disorder. Also, since these patterns have been "ingrained" into the individual's psyche from a very young age, "undoing" the damage, and rebuilding their self-image requires intensive and lengthy psychotherapy (as mentioned above)...and even the best-case outcomes are questionable at best.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333987

this is meant to try and be helpful

maybe this is what i have

mike91163
02-08-10, 09:10 AM
now i see why i always come off as a jerk (even though sometimes i am)

when i said dx ing everyone is annoying , i am mainly referring to myslef

i am not clear, sorry for that

Dave:

First things first-You do not ALWAYS come off as a jerk-just sometimes :), and I think we ALL can lay claim to being that way on occasion.

Second, as ADHDTigger wrote, give yourself a little more credit-plenty of your posts are helpful and informative-for example: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=837895&postcount=183 I too love math and sciences, but hate writing and essays...

Third, I may have been a little harsh in my post as well...proving my point above! My apologies if I offended you.

Mike

mike91163
02-08-10, 09:23 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333987

this is meant to try and be helpful

maybe this is what i have

Thanks for the info, Dave...indeed quite helpful. Trust me, with my wife's issues over the years, I've done a lot of research into high-functioning BPD with co-morbid NPD tendencies, and this (honestly) is the first piece of info I've read that actually shows a theraputic benefit to the "root" BPD symptoms from a medication...most of the drugs (usually antidepressants) tried in BPD treat the "surface" issues.

I will certainly have a chat with our primary care doctor (we both go to the same doc), and see what he thinks.

Again, many thanks for the link!

daveddd
02-08-10, 09:26 AM
i have several of those symptoms , and started lamactil recently its great

complete symptom relief other innattentive adhd symptoms

see my "what is this stuff thread if you want a list of symptoms, maybe they match you r wifes

TIRED1
04-03-10, 02:51 AM
I recently came across this site (this is my first post). In brief I have suspected my wife of being NPD. Years of reading many sites lead me to seek professional clarification. After several meeting with psycohologist she confirmed to me that I was dealing with someone with NPD. Keep in mind this of course is based on what I have told her - all of it true. She also helped me gain an insight into how they think - something I didn't realise before.

Recently one of my children has been diagnosed with ADHD (mid teens). When I read the checklist I found many areas of ADHD which resemble in many ways mannerisms of ADHD.

It was this, that made me look for any overlap - perhaps she has ADHD (this is how I came across this site). In reading the checklist I suspect I had it when I was younger and may still have some traits but have over the years developed strategies.

Your discussion on this topic has helped a great deal on clarifying the difference. It is possible she has both - however unlike my son who deep down is a caring person she is not. She is a manipulator.

She is a show off - he is not. He does lie - but is not good at it. She lies and is brilliant at it. Ok so perhaps over the years she has perfected the art. Perhaps you can help me with some insight on the following:

1) There is one strong characterist about N people which is talking badly about people behind their back. They do this for two reasons - one to deflect the 'nothingness' of themsleves, and actually have something to speak about, and the other to tarnish the other person (usually someone close to them perhaps NS), so as to minimise friends of this person in an attempt to control them - nowhere to go but back to the N.

Do ADHD people do this? Do they speak badly about others? Do they try to control people?

2) N's are not great sexually. If they do it is to get their rocks off, or in an attempt to control others. Usually they use other peoples bodies to satisafy themselves, without any real thought of or connection to the other person. Cerebral N's have little interest at all is sex, and Somatic N's may have but only for short periods - often they just enjoy the attention - and little else.

How do ADHD view sexual relations? I read somewhere they are not very intimate? Is that the case? If so/not, how do they differ from NPD people?

Appreciate any clarification.

EshkaronsEngine
04-03-10, 02:42 PM
very MEEEEEEEEE:p

Sirrah
04-03-10, 04:09 PM
All I really know is; it's very, very easy to put something like NPD into context of peoples behavior. I was totally obsessed with this disorder a while back; I was convinced I was a closet narcissist, and I thought some of my family were too. I questioned my own motives for every little thing I did, thinking I was driven by what they call "Narcisstic Supply".

I even thought the empathy I so value in myself was somehow fake. Oh yeah, I really tortured myself with this.

Thankfully, I came to the realisation that everyones ego gets a little bloated sometimes - especially if you suffer from low self esteem, you'll cling onto and exagerrate anything to make yourself feel better. Even if it's at the expense of others. Doesn't (necessarily) make you NPD!

Pyrrhic Victory
04-03-10, 04:58 PM
I am a narcissist and I have the pictures to prove it! Though... they're all scattered about and may take some time to find.

TIRED1
04-03-10, 08:11 PM
Thanks the replies. So are these traits more NPD or ADHD?

As I have mentioned before I have done a great deal of reading on NPD, and my little reading of ADHD, has made me realise that much overlaps on many areas.

I am just looking for something here to help me understand what are the key differences in trying to assess the situation.

If anybody is NPD or ADHD and can clarify, or just understands the differences - I would be most grateful.

meadd823
04-04-10, 03:16 AM
Thanks the replies. So are these traits more NPD or ADHD?

As I have mentioned before I have done a great deal of reading on NPD, and my little reading of ADHD, has made me realise that much overlaps on many areas.

I am just looking for something here to help me understand what are the key differences in trying to assess the situation.

If anybody is NPD or ADHD and can clarify, or just understands the differences - I would be most grateful.

The difference between ADD and NPD - sure please see the stuff {inside of these things}


Criteria for Narcissist personality disorder

Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx36.htm)

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

{Genetic which is a majority - ADD begins in early childhood}

* Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

{This is not indicative of ADDers as a a group. While some ADDers may boast as if they think they are all that and a bag of chips the truth is many actually feel just the opposite}



* Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

{ADDers as a group tend to just day dream - although some may may have these sort preoccupation the object of the preoccupation shifts like the wind}

* Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

{This is not indicative of ADDers as a group - in fact most ADDers tend to feel out of place as opposed to special, we do not feel understood by any one - and especially not by the high and mighty}


* Requires excessive admiration

* Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of special favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

{Again not indicative most ADDers do not have a freaking clue what our expectations are we simply want our way NOW even in the case when we don't know what that would be}



* Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

{While NPDs disregard others needs for their own desires because they do not care The ADDer simply don't stop and consider others needs but because they lack the attention span to engage insights into how others feel}

* Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

{Not all ADDers lack empathy but most of us lack empathy balance - we either can't see past our feels or we can't see our feelings at all. ADDers miss the needs of others because they are unable to - willingness or lack there of doesn't have any thing to do with it }

* Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

{ADDers usually think that others place them in an inferior role - not all of us envy others but some do}

* Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

{While some ADDers may act arrogant or haughty some act meek and anxious while others are clueless over talkative due to nervousness}

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Narcissist are able to pay attention and direct their focus even on mundane task if it suits their goals ADDers rarely have goals no matter what they desire.


Narcissist want admiration ADDers just want to fit in.


Narcissist are not interested in how others feel, they feel entitled to do what ever they want

ADDers are not aware of how others feel - some ADDers are not even fully aware of how they feel but it is not out of lack of interest.

ADD is about lacking attention span, stimuli filtering, and focus Narcissist have the ability to consciously control their direction of focus and length of attention span.

Last of all but far from least in general ADDers WANT to change they KNOW that they are not functioning as they should

Narcissist do NOT want to change - they see others as always being at fault so they see no need for personal changes.


Hope this helps :)




. . . . .

Sirrah
04-04-10, 05:43 PM
Good post.

After some thought, here's my take. Some of it might be a stretch, but hey, the DSM criteria for NPD, as with most disorders, is vague and very open to interpretation!



Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) I don't see how the self-importance could be confused with ADD, however, exaggerating achievements and talents could easily come from self esteem problems common in ADD.



Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. The chronic underachievement typicial of ADD'ers could leave one very hung up on the idea of "making up for it" in their future endeavours. Proving all the people that called us "stupid and slow" wrong, and in the process, blowing their expectations out of all proportion. (Ok, this might become a seperate issue to deal with, but far from a full blown personality disorder, imo.)



Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) ADD'ers have always felt "different", it's natural to play up to one's uniqueness and learn to see it as a strength rather than a weakness. This could possibly come with a certain defensive arrogance and intolerance of the opinions of those that aren't the same as you. (I see this a lot on mental health forums.)



Requires excessive admiration Poor self esteem and poor emotional self regulation are common problems with ADD. If you struggle to feel good about yourself, you rely on others to do it for you. Furthermore, it's often hard to feel good about the things we do, and to motivate ourselves to do them at all - an ADD'er relying on excessive praise to motivate themselves isn't too hard to imagine.



Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations Could (quite easily) be confused with an ADD'ers difficulty in delaying gratification; extreme impatience.



Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends Got nothing on this one.



Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others Could be confused with an ADD'ers inattention to a persons feelings, rather than outright disregard.



Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her I don't see how believing others are envious of you could be considered ADD, as for envying others - who doesn't from time to time?Especially when you've been dealt the hand that is ADD.(Sure, we can all claim to believe it's a "gift" and all that, but nobody feels that way when the chips are down.)



Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. ADD'ers can get carried away with topics they feel strongly about, and intolerant and frustrated when confronted with ignorance. This can easily come across as arrogance.

indy
04-04-10, 10:28 PM
To be filed under "Your Mileage may Vary"...

One of the things that I have noticed in becoming active on this board is how anxiously some of us will try out a label to see if it fits. ADHD treatment not being a perfect thing, it is as if we are looking for a SOMETHING that will just explain away all the rest of the stuff swirling in our heads that the medication, diet, exercise, brain training, and everything else we do doesn't begin to touch. We don't want excuses, we want a line in the sand and a list to manage to. We want to know what the heck is wrong in the belief that we can somehow find the right combination of things that will FIX it already!

All that coupled with all the wonderful names we have been called or the not-so-nice things we have heard about ourselves all our lives and I do believe many of us would cheerfully self identify as serial killers if it would only give us a course of treatment that worked and did so dependably.

If you are truly of the belief that Narcissism is an element of your issues, by all means seek diagnosis. But there simply is no "one size fits all" with ADHD. Not that I have ever discovered, anyway.

here's my diagnosis: we're all human...

indy
04-04-10, 10:45 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333987

this is meant to try and be helpful

maybe this is what i have

dave, i don't think you have BPD. i really don't see you as the bad guy you have let people tell you you are. are you impulsive with your words? yes. but that makes you ADHD. are you a little black and white? yes. but that also makes you ADHD... the extremes are easier to get a grip on and focus on than the vastly expanding grey zone.

if you don't mind me saying, i think you act more like somebody who has spent much of their young lives with bipolar disorder. i can see this in you because i am 30 and i have had bipolar disorder since i was 17. a psych once tried to label me with borderline personality disorder but thankfully a therapist shot down the idea with these words:

growing up bipolar makes it impossible to develop a sense of self that isn't tied to emotional extremes. you see things in black and white, not because that is your personality, but because your world is black and white so much of the time. the blackness of depression and the blazing white light of mania. when you live in these extremes you naturally develop a personality that is adaptive to doing so. so yeah, you become an extreme person. you jump right in with the wrong words at the wrong time. you take offense when there is none to be taken. you are never sure of other's intensions because you never had a rational mind to teach you how to read others. this is the result of living with bipolar disorder.

and my current psych said something else that made me feel better and proved the borderline diagnosis false. he said: when there is an axis one disorder (bipolar disorder or adhd) that can better account for symptoms then the symptoms are chalked up to that. because axis one disorders inevitably affect personality... how could they not? so if the above paragraph rings true with you, i propose that you are bipolar (as you have mentioned elsewhere on this forum,) and adhd, and you have the personality of somebody with these disorders.

anyway... i kind of like having you around here and i usually don't care for borderlines (we clash terribly.) i don't see you that way.

TIRED1
04-05-10, 06:19 AM
Again many thanks to all who took the time to reply. I do appreciate the time and effort, as it helps me a great deal.

I have briefly touched on my need to know this, but perhaps time to further elborate. Some few years ago I went to search issues between wife and I which made no sense. One thing lead to another, which lead me to get professional clarification - as mentioned earlier. Once I had this clarified I read everything I could on the subject and as Sirrah said I too was initally somewhat obsessed and noted NPD's all around me. That has passed, however the issue was an awakening about PD's, which I was never really aware of. As a consequence of my readings I have changed many of my ways in order to protect myself and my children. Also where possible to assist them in dealing with her ways. She will not acknowledge anything is wrong with her behaviour - we are all at fault - me especially.

Anyway with my sons recent diagnosis of ADHD, I had the opportunity to see that many characterists are similar. As such I started to question if I had it all wrong. Did I just spend 2 years dealing with the wrong issue. However your replies have helped me a great deal to realise that I wasn't however I never considered she may be NPD and ADHD. Whilst I was waiting for replies I did invest some time searching the net and made my own list of differences. I am not medically trained or skilled in any of this, as such it is purely my thoughts based on what I have read and what I see in my own household. I am sharing it here as perhaps others may one day find it useful. However if anyone disagrees with anything I listed - please feel free to let me know.


ADD - Show remorse
NPD - Show no remorse

ADD -Show real empathy
NPD - Have no empathy or fake it

ADD - Not selfish
NPD - Very selfish

ADD - Not grandiose in their thinking
NPD - Grandiose in their thinking

ADD - Not important to stand out in the crowd
NPD - Must stand out in the crowd

ADD - Not attention seeking
NPD - Attention seeking

ADD - Not snobby
NPD - Snobby/haughty attitude

ADD - Not overtly affected when others don’t comply
NPD - Extreme anger when someone doesn’t comply

ADD - Aren’t able to cover up lies very well
NPD - Cover up lies very well

ADD - Accept they may have faults
NPD - Never accept they have faults

ADD -Not good at organizing themselves
NPD -Prefer to have others do their work – menial

ADD - Acknowledge that they are messy
NPD - Never admit they are responsible for their mess

ADD - Feel bad about being messy
NPD Feel angry that someone made the mess

ADD - Are uncomfortable in the spotlight
NPD - Loves the spotlight

ADD - Compassionate and loving
NPD - Cold and manipulative – although not obvious

ADD - Unconsciously breaks rules (impulsive)
NPD - Consciously breaks rules (planning/manipulates)

ADD - Undervalue their abilities (understate them)
NPD - Overvalue their abilities (overstate them)

ADD - Genuinely forget things
NPD - Often fake forgetting (passive aggressive)

ADD - Often talk excessively about anything (hyper)
NPD - Often talk about themselves, or turn it to themselves

ADD - Question why they always make mistakes
NPD - Accuse others of always making mistakes

ADD - Make big efforts to nurture
NPD - Make little effort to nurture – but often pretend they do

ADD - Will invest time for others with no expectations
NPD - Will not invest time in others unless opportunity for NS

ADD - Will rage as a response to being attacked
NPD - Will rage for no apparent reason

ADD - Will accept critism – even consider it
NPD - Never accept criticism – often rage against it

ADD - Believe they are average (or below) NPD - Believe they are special

ADD - Feel a level of guilt about lying
NPD - Feel no guilt or perhaps even unaware they are lying

ADD - Are often well grounded
NPD - Are generally delusional<O:p</O:p

Michiko74
04-05-10, 12:51 PM
One of the things that I have noticed in becoming active on this board is how anxiously some of us will try out a label to see if it fits. ADHD treatment not being a perfect thing, it is as if we are looking for a SOMETHING that will just explain away all the rest of the stuff swirling in our heads that the medication, diet, exercise, brain training, and everything else we do doesn't begin to touch. We don't want excuses, we want a line in the sand and a list to manage to. We want to know what the heck is wrong in the belief that we can somehow find the right combination of things that will FIX it already!.

Bravo Tigger, bravo!

I think you've hit the nail on the head Tigger when you mention about the desire to FIX our ADHD. Some of us just want that one shot deal, and then never have to think about it again.

Mangement is a much tougher concept to swallow because essentially it's about work. Or having to do something. It's also a bitter pill to swallow because management forces you to have to face your ADHD on a daily basis. I know there are days I don't want to learn a new skill because it makes me feel kind of stupid. Like I'm so dim witted my to do list has to be limited to three tasks.

I struggle with these feelings constantly. But at the end of the day, I'm not interested in searching for more labels. I got the one label I need. Personally, I'd much rather invest the time in learning to live with it rather than denying it's existence in my life.

mccinny
04-07-10, 04:32 PM
That's very interesting. So are true narcissists similar to sociopaths? Although, it sounds like a big difference (besides feeling empathy), is narcissists feel they need people, and sociopaths use people for their own means. Then again, that doesn't sound too different.

D

Sirrah
04-08-10, 08:25 AM
I'm sure anyone that's done any research on NPD, will be aware of Sam Vaknin. (http://samvak.tripod.com/) - fascinating, but scary individual :)

Interesting documentary..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AavTwDLE_4o
(Further parts in related videos.)

Also,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44iQdOwuZ5E

TIRED1
04-08-10, 08:54 AM
mccinny, my understanding is that N's need people like a bricklayer needs a trowel. There is no connection on any other level other then to service their needs, nor do they consider them on any other level. They view others as nothing more then tools. Use and discard as they need.

Yes they are very much like sociopaths.

You say "feel they need people". My understanding is they feel virtually nothing for other people. They will not accept they need people - however in reality they do, as their persona is only possible due to other people. They mimic others - at every level.

When I was first dealing with trying to understand this (the way they are) as I couldn't relate to such an emptiness residing in any human, I came up with a jelly blob (almost like the Blob in the movie). It contains nothing and uses and sucks up all around it for its existence. Perhaps not the best analogy but certainly helped me.

I believe this post has touched on something with me - which is why I find it so interesting. I had never associated NPD and ADHD. I had associated N relations with Co dependents. However with my very limited understanding of ADHD, and my assessement of relationships which involve N's I can now see not only Co dependent types, but also that many of these are also ADHD. It's way to early for me to make such a call but I am starting to form an opinion that many Co dependents are also ADHD. Perhaps their ADHD is what makes them CD's.

From what I have read ADHD people have some very impressive attributes, as such I can see how many of these attributes can not only make them more capable to form and maintain a relationship with an NPD person, but also how many of these attributes can also make them Co depenents.

I can also see how the multi faceted characterists of ADHDer can be so attractive to N's who have little genuine positive characterists.

If others have any firm data on this point I would love to hear from you. If what I am starting to realise has any basis - then it explains a great deal in my families dynamics and much of what I see around me.

mccinny
04-09-10, 09:32 AM
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the clarification.

D

pop1
05-23-10, 07:17 PM
I don't think NPD and ADHD are the same
but do have both disorders
I am shy narcissist http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcissism/arrogantshycomparison.html
I have garndiose fantasies all day long
of being genius powerful in every field and other peole watching me
I try to overcome it but my Inattentive ADHD make it harder

Spirals
05-24-10, 11:35 AM
I've read a few things on the web which say that ADHD could actually be Narcissistic Personality Disorder - but nothing I've read really explains why. It seems to me that ADHD and NPD are so totally different. I'd be grateful if anyone could explain the theory behind this or provide a link which explains the connections etc.

There's no equivalence between the two at all, as far as I'm aware. I'm not aware of any research demonstrating a connection, either.

NPD comes with an extremely pervasive interpersonal pattern of behaviour which essentially views people as objects to use and discard. Very manipulative, exploitative, unempathetic, etc..

NPD individuals are principally concerned with themselves, not in the way introverts are, but in terms of caring principally only for themselves. They'll pay attention to you if you can provide something for them or reflect well upon them, but when they get bored with you, you'll be getting blood out of a sharp stone trying to get back the honeymoon phase person you met.

This isn't the same as ADD/ADHD at all. Although attention deficits can certainly make you seem like you're not that interested in others, it's a different kettle of fish to NPD. ADD/ADHD people care about others the same way people without them care about others (of course you'll have a continuum along that, as with other folks). NPD doesn't genuinely care, and is incapable of doing so, because to care you need to view people as more than objects.

Can I ask where you found this information? If it's not peer-reviewed, I wouldn't put any stock in it at all. There isn't even enough overlap between the two for there to be such a connection, although you could certainly have both at the same time.

Gilthranon
10-30-11, 04:22 PM
Anyone else dyingly afraid they have NPD ? When not too long ago I got told I have a personality disorder along with ADD I didn't want to question any further. I got very few symptoms of the disorder explained, one about not excepting sadness and thus not being able to fall into depression, but now I'm not so sure I'm not NPD ?

Seriously, help :S

Lolwut17
10-31-11, 02:49 PM
mccinny, my understanding is that N's need people like a bricklayer needs a trowel. There is no connection on any other level other then to service their needs, nor do they consider them on any other level. They view others as nothing more then tools. Use and discard as they need.

Yes they are very much like sociopaths.

You say "feel they need people". My understanding is they feel virtually nothing for other people. They will not accept they need people - however in reality they do, as their persona is only possible due to other people. They mimic others - at every level.

When I was first dealing with trying to understand this (the way they are) as I couldn't relate to such an emptiness residing in any human, I came up with a jelly blob (almost like the Blob in the movie). It contains nothing and uses and sucks up all around it for its existence. Perhaps not the best analogy but certainly helped me.

I believe this post has touched on something with me - which is why I find it so interesting. I had never associated NPD and ADHD. I had associated N relations with Co dependents. However with my very limited understanding of ADHD, and my assessement of relationships which involve N's I can now see not only Co dependent types, but also that many of these are also ADHD. It's way to early for me to make such a call but I am starting to form an opinion that many Co dependents are also ADHD. Perhaps their ADHD is what makes them CD's.

From what I have read ADHD people have some very impressive attributes, as such I can see how many of these attributes can not only make them more capable to form and maintain a relationship with an NPD person, but also how many of these attributes can also make them Co depenents.

I can also see how the multi faceted characterists of ADHDer can be so attractive to N's who have little genuine positive characterists.

If others have any firm data on this point I would love to hear from you. If what I am starting to realise has any basis - then it explains a great deal in my families dynamics and much of what I see around me.

Hello Tired,

I was just diagnosed as Inattentive ADD a couple of weeks ago after months of curiosity. I discovered that I most likely had Inattentive ADD AFTER I learned that I was Co-Dependent. Roughly nine months ago, my Girlfriend of two and a half years broke up with me. The break up came out of nowhere, her personality completely changed, and she split me blacker than night.

The result of the break up for me was complete confusion and being ridden with guilt, how could this girl who seemingly loved me more than anything just dump me out of the blue, trash me as a person, and never look back? None of it made sense, this was not a break up between two HEALTHY people. I struggled to find answers for month before I stumbled upon information about Borderline Personality Disorder. After months and months of researching BPD, I have determined that that, although undiagnosed, it is VERY likely that my ex had Borderline Personality Disorder as she meets all but one of the diagnosis criteria (You need to meet 5 of the 9 to be diagnosed). I went from having no closure in my break up to understanding the whole dynamic of not only my relationship and it's crumble, but also mine and my ex's entire lives.

Whilst learning about Borderline Personality Disorder, I also began to learn about things like Co-Dependency, Narcissism, and ADD that are often associated in the partners of Borderlines. A Borderline almost always pairs up with someone that is either Co-Dependent or Narcissistic. A BPD/NPD relationship is seen as the "perfect PD" couple because they both fuel each others idea of a relationship, their personality flaws combine into a dance that can fuel such a toxic relationship for a very long time.

However, most Non's that seek help after the fallout of a BPD relationship are Co-Dependent. A BPD/Co-Dependent relationship is another combo that magically fits together as one (messed up/toxic) puzzle that will ultimately crumble. The same article that helped me realize that I had Inattentive ADD was the same article that helped me realize that I am very prone to finding myself in relationships with High Maintenance Borderline Personalities (http://www.sharischreiber.com/ADD.html). Those with ADD are attracted to relationships with High Maintenance Borderlines because the initial intense idealization shown by a Borderline is HIGHLY stimulating for someone with ADD. Top that off with the inevitable withdrawal phases of a Borderline, nonstop drama/chaos in their lives, the same child like demeanor that many of us possess (It's easy for ADDers to connect with them cause they emotionally stuck at the age of 3), and the intense and frequent sex and you have yourself the ultimate mind stimulating/adrenaline rushing/void filling drug that can keep you hooked for a long long time.

And just like a serious drug like Heroin, weening off of a Co-Dependent/Attention fixation of a person with BPD is harder than any withdrawal you can ever experience with any REAL substance.

I hope this answered your question, if you have any more feel free to ask. Also, glad to finally be a part of these boards. I'm also a member of bpdfamily.com to help with recovering from the fallout of my BPD relationship and Co-Dependency, but my ADD was a whole separate issue that needed to be dealt with and this forum is great.

soaking
11-26-11, 02:43 PM
Whilst learning about Borderline Personality Disorder, I also began to learn about things like Co-Dependency, Narcissism, and ADD that are often associated in the partners of Borderlines. A Borderline almost always pairs up with someone that is either Co-Dependent or Narcissistic. A BPD/NPD relationship is seen as the "perfect PD" couple because they both fuel each others idea of a relationship, their personality flaws combine into a dance that can fuel such a toxic relationship for a very long time.

However, most Non's that seek help after the fallout of a BPD relationship are Co-Dependent. A BPD/Co-Dependent relationship is another combo that magically fits together as one (messed up/toxic) puzzle that will ultimately crumble. The same article that helped me realize that I had Inattentive ADD was the same article that helped me realize that I am very prone to finding myself in relationships with High Maintenance Borderline Personalities (http://www.sharischreiber.com/ADD.html). Those with ADD are attracted to relationships with High Maintenance Borderlines because the initial intense idealization shown by a Borderline is HIGHLY stimulating for someone with ADD. Top that off with the inevitable withdrawal phases of a Borderline, nonstop drama/chaos in their lives, the same child like demeanor that many of us possess (It's easy for ADDers to connect with them cause they emotionally stuck at the age of 3), and the intense and frequent sex and you have yourself the ultimate mind stimulating/adrenaline rushing/void filling drug that can keep you hooked for a long long time.

And just like a serious drug like Heroin, weening off of a Co-Dependent/Attention fixation of a person with BPD is harder than any withdrawal you can ever experience with any REAL substance.

I hope this answered your question, if you have any more feel free to ask. Also, glad to finally be a part of these boards. I'm also a member of bpdfamily.com to help with recovering from the fallout of my BPD relationship and Co-Dependency, but my ADD was a whole separate issue that needed to be dealt with and this forum is great.

To get some things clear. You can have a personality disorder AND ADHD. YOu are more likely to develop one if you have ADHD, specifically Borderline Personality (aka Emotionally Unstable Personality), or Antisocial Personality Disorder - which shares some aspects of Narcissism, but is associated with criminality.

Right and to be honest a lot of whatever Sam Vak writes is crap. A lot of what you hear about personality disorders on the internet is sanctimonious rubbish, that fails to highlight that people with personality disorders are a greater risk to themselves. And what this guy sating above is nonsense. Co-dependency is balls.

And I'm sorry but seriously if you've been dx'd with a combined type ADHD the likelihood that you'd fit the symptoms of a personality disorder is much higher anyways. LIke if you look at the symptoms of EUPD:

"F60.30 Impulsive type
At least three of the following must be present, one of which must be (2):

(1) marked tendency to act unexpectedly and without consideration of the consequences;

(2) marked tendency to quarrelsome behaviour and to conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or criticized;

(3) liability to outbursts of anger or violence, with inability to control the resulting behavioural explosions;

(4) difficulty in maintaining any course of action that offers no immediate reward;

(5) unstable and capricious mood.

It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality
disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.

F60.31 Borderline type
At least three of the symptoms mentioned in F60.30 Impulsive type must be present [see above], with at least two of the following in addition:


(1) disturbances in and uncertainty about self-image, aims, and internal preferences (including sexual);

(2) liability to become involved in intense and unstable relationships, often leading to emotional crisis;

(3) excessive efforts to avoid abandonment;
recurrent threats or acts of self-harm;

(4) chronic feelings of emptiness."


Considering that when I did the adult conners it asks questions like whether you still throw tantrums, have an unpredictable mood, a risk taker, is easily annoyed and stuff to do with self-esteem. My point is there is a strong symptom over lap between the conditions to start with. And that ADHD makes the development of these things more likely. and that i'm sure a lot of people who are diagnosed with ADHD can look at the symptoms of the impulsive type and be like 'woah that sounds like me'.

2understand
06-07-17, 11:51 PM
I've read a few things on the web which say that ADHD could actually be Narcissistic Personality Disorder - but nothing I've read really explains why. It seems to me that ADHD and NPD are so totally different. I'd be grateful if anyone could explain the theory behind this or provide a link which explains the connections etc.

This is a medical article chiefly citing the physiology pathology of narcissism and how it is impacted by -and it's relationship to - possible malfunction of - the fear and attention centers in the brain of a narcissist - hope this helps


Elsa Ronningstam and Arielle R. Baskin-Sommers. (2013) Fear and decision-making in narcissistic personality disorder—a link between psychoanalysis and neuroscience. Dialogues Clin Neurosci. 15(2): 191–201.
[Full text available online at http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC3811090]
Abstract
Linking psychoanalytic studies with neuroscience has proven increasingly productive for identifying and understanding personality functioning. This article focuses on pathological narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), with the aim of exploring two clinically relevant aspects of narcissistic functioning also recognized in psychoanalysis: fear and decision-making. Evidence from neuroscientific studies of related conditions, such as psychopathy, suggests links between affective and cognitive functioning that can influence the sense of self-agency and narcissistic self-regulation. Attention can play a crucial role in moderating fear and self-regulatory deficits, and the interaction between experience and emotion can be central for decision-making. In this review we will explore fear as a motivating factor in narcissistic personality functioning, and the impact fear may have on decision-making in people with pathological narcissism and NPD. Understanding the processes and neurological underpinnings of fear and decision-making can potentially influence both the diagnosis and treatment of NPD.

sarahsweets
06-08-17, 08:52 AM
In layman's terms, with your thoughts?