View Full Version : How does time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation develop?


mildadhd
05-03-16, 10:14 PM
..Recognizing that time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation are nature driven and necessary developmental tasks, we ask the following:

What conditions are needed for human physiological and psychological maturation?..




-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", Chapter: "Forgetting To Remember The Future", P 43.



This thread is meant to explore how time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation develop.






m

BellaVita
05-03-16, 10:44 PM
Good question.

I wonder if some people are born with those things being easier and more naturally able to do those things, and for others they are born with it being more difficult.

Little Nut
05-03-16, 10:56 PM
Mild, what is meant by "time self". I'm aware of time passing in the present and time passing in the past, but not sure what it means in this context.

mildadhd
05-03-16, 11:04 PM
Good question.

I wonder if some people are born with those things being easier and more naturally able to do those things, and for others they are born with it being more difficult.

Good questions.

I wonder if we first figure out how time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation develop naturally, in general. Then we could compare when things don't.





m

mildadhd
05-03-16, 11:29 PM
What do we need for time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation to develop?






m

mildadhd
05-03-16, 11:37 PM
Mild, what is meant by "time self". I'm aware of time passing in the present and time passing in the past, but not sure what it means in this context.

I may have forgot a comma?

Meant to read "time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation"




m

Little Nut
05-03-16, 11:43 PM
Sorry Mild, my mistake with the typo. I am still not sure what is meant by "time sense".

mildadhd
05-04-16, 12:25 AM
Time sense is a sense of time.



No infant is born with a sense of time.

The gradual acquisition of time sense is a task of development that begins in early childhood.

At the outset, the infant has no categories such as time, space or causality, no awareness that one event leads to another.

It is not until the age of seven or so, Jean Piaget found, that children begin to have a full understanding of time as a continuous flow.

Until then the child is in what Piaget, the great Swiss cognitive psychologist called the "preoperational stage,"..



-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", Chapter, "Forgetting To Remember The Future", P 37







m

Little Nut
05-04-16, 12:12 PM
Time sense is a sense of time.
m

So we are talking about our individual perception of the passing of time? Our awareness of the concept of past, present, and future?

Fuzzy12
05-04-16, 12:20 PM
So we are talking about our individual perception of the passing of time? Our awareness of the concept of past, present, and future?

I think, time sense refers to having a good awareness of the passing of time. I wonder if it also refers to being able to self motivate based on long term rewards.

Fuzzy12
05-04-16, 12:27 PM
No infant is born with a sense of time.

The gradual acquisition of time sense is a task of development that begins in early childhood.

At the outset, the infant has no categories such as time, space or causality, no awareness that one event leads to another.

It is not until the age of seven or so, Jean Piaget found, that children begin to have a full understanding of time as a continuous flow.

Until then the child is in what Piaget, the great Swiss cognitive psychologist called the "preoperational stage,"..

Maybe infants are not born with a sense of time but are infants born with the structures that are needed to learn/develop a sense of time?

If a child was not taught in any way a sense of time would their time sense just be impaired or would it be absent?

I thought in ADHD we are impaired because the structures required to learn self-regulatory or executive functions are damaged in some way (probably at conception). I mean, if I understand correctly the blue print to develop these functions at the appropriate time (which could be many years later) and be capable of improving and learning these functions is in some way damaged.

I guess, there are lots of other things such as environmental factors (or their lack) that can damage these functions or the capability to learn/develop these functions as well but in ADHD we sort of start with a faulty model, don't we? Like an artificial intelligence program that cannot learn properly because it has been coded badly.

sarahsweets
05-04-16, 02:21 PM
Well I look at time as a construct or frame for us humans to measure and record stuff that happens from one day to the next.
I dont see how anyone could ever really understand time specifically as its own thing, other than looking at the clock.
But I do think babies react to light so early morning, mid morning and all the way through until dark gives babies a way to "know' or expect certain things. Like meal time or nap time.

TygerSan
05-04-16, 05:17 PM
Just musing off the top of my head here: If you look at how laboratory animals perceive time and passage of time, dopamine plays a role in speeding up/slowing down perception. It's just one piece of the puzzle, but it's there (and given that we ADHDers arguably have problems with dopamine neurotransmission-- and even in the absence of that, many of us are on meds that alter dopamine neurotransmission-- I'm not surprised that our perception of the passing of time is somewhat warped).

That's pretty much at a micro level (in the timescale of seconds to minutes), though. I have a much better longer-scale sense of time than my husband does, for example, and the regulation and perception of time at longer time periods is something that I have almost no information on.

mildadhd
05-04-16, 11:55 PM
Great discussion.

Does everyone agree that we need dopaminergic pathways to develop "time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways

(List)
-dopaminergic pathways
-


What else do we need to develop "time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation"?


m

ginniebean
05-05-16, 12:38 AM
I'm very curious about this topic, I've been looking for the research on how adhd interferes with the natural development of time sense most specifically.

Do you know what parts of the brain are not functioning and why? I know you read a lot on these sorts of things.

I find it frustrating often because so much research is behind paywalls.

I've managed to track down some of the areas of the brain that are being looked into, from architectural differences to potential involvement of the corpus callosum that may somehow interfere with time sense.

I will keep looking and may contact some of the researchers to see if they can point me in the right direction. It may be too late to help with this post but I'll post something when I put it together.

Good topic.

mildadhd
05-06-16, 09:08 PM
THE ANATOMY OF THE SEEKING SYSTEM

Anatomically, the trajectory of the SEEKING system runs from the ventral tegmental area (VTA) up to three main destinations: (i) the medial forebrain bundle and the lateral hypothalamus (MFB-LH), (ii) up to the nucleus accumbens and (iii) to the medial prefrontal cortex via the mesolimbic and mesocortical dopamine pathways.

A general summary of the anatomy is in figure 3.1.

Some of the major neurons of this system, the dopamine ones situated in the VTA, receive abundant inputs from other parts of the brain.

As we mentioned, this system also has massive outputs to several higher regions of the brain, especially the nucleus accumbens, which is a major way station for appetitive learning.

In certain "lower" mammals like rats, the ascending dopamine pathways that energize this system do not project beyond the frontal cortical regions.

In humans, however, this system reaches much further, into the sensory-perceptual cortices concentrating in the back of the brain.

This is consistent with the fact that SEEKING in humans arouses cognitive functions that do not have clear homologues in other animals.



In all mammals, the nucleus accumbens interacts with the medial frontal cortex to promote simple appetitive learning (and addictions).

Because the SEEKING system energizes the frontal neocortical regions, especially medial zones that focus on immediate emotional needs, we are able to devise strategies to obtain life's bounties and to escape its pitfalls.

When experiences are exceptionally pleasurable, we remember them, and this lays the foundations for the possibility of addiction.

As already noted, the dopamine part of this system extends further throughout the cortex in humans than it does in most other animals.

Of course, this system works in association with many other brain regions (Figure 3.1 B, C, D), including those that control general arousal (globally operating norepinephrine and serotonin systems) as well as more specific brain-attention functions such as those mediated by acetylcholine, GABA, and glutamate.

Because the SEEKING system also participates in the enactment of all the other emotions we will discuss in this book, we will not repeat such complexities in each chapter, but we think that readers will appreciate that the discussion of each system is abstracted from the larger brain complexities in which each of those systems is embedded.

No emotional system can do much without the help of the rest of the brain.


-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", Chapter "The SEEKING System", P 104.



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mildadhd
05-06-16, 09:31 PM
THE CHEMISTRY OF THE SEEKING SYSTEM

The SEEKING system is fueled heavily, perhaps mainly, by the neurotransmitter dopamine (DA).

The role of DA in stimulating this system has been most thoroughly studied, but there are other key chemistries that enable this system to perform all the functions that it does...


-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", chapter "The SEEKING system", P 105.



m

SB_UK
05-07-16, 03:22 PM
What's the
time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation develop
connection to
SEEKING?

mildadhd
05-08-16, 03:10 AM
..Ascending projections of A10 DA (Dopamine) neurons localized in the VTA, innervating to limbic regions, including the NAS (nucleus accumbens septi), the mesolimbic DA system, as well as cortical regions via the mesocortical DA system.

(-Ikemoto & Panksepp, 1999)

The dopamine neurons in areas of the mesolimbic pathway (VTA->NAS) and mesocortical pathway (VTA->OFC).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolimbic_pathway

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesocortical_pathway



m

mildadhd
05-08-16, 03:39 AM
What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA? (Before the age of 1)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->NAS? (Before the age of 3)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->OFC? (Before the age of 7)


m

SB_UK
05-08-16, 04:32 AM
?


[cibmil-osem/meso-cortical]

SB_UK
05-08-16, 05:14 AM
What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA? (Before the age of 1)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->NAS? (Before the age of 3)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->OFC? (Before the age of 7)


m

primitive vs higher environental stimuli.

mildadhd
05-08-16, 05:14 AM
?


[cibmil-osem/meso-cortical]

What age of development are you focusing on?


m

mildadhd
05-08-16, 05:21 AM
primitive vs higher environental stimuli.

From the VTA (efferent) and to the VTA (afferent)



m

SB_UK
05-08-16, 06:58 AM
What age of development are you focusing on?


m

No focus on age.
Just 1 and 2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways

SB_UK
05-08-16, 06:59 AM
From the VTA (efferent) and to the VTA (afferent)



m

? afferent -> efferent

SB_UK
05-08-16, 07:28 AM
What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA? (Before the age of 1)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->NAS? (Before the age of 3)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->OFC? (Before the age of 7)


m

Guessing ?

LOWER - MATERIAL WORLD - SEEKING <- Immersion in low quality sugar, starch and glutamate rich foods

HIGHER - NON-MATERIAL WORLD (INFORMATION) - SEEKING <- Immersion in ideas

SB_UK
05-08-16, 12:04 PM
What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA? (Before the age of 1)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->NAS? (Before the age of 3)

What factors determine the number and density of dopamine neurons ascending from the VTA->OFC? (Before the age of 7)


m


http://www.child-development-guide.com/social_and_emotional_development.html

< 3
Self-ish (the needs of self) behaviour dominant
eg "are possessive of their own toys and objects, and have little idea of sharing" under 2 yrs - 3 yrs

> 3
Social behaviour arising
eg "have an ability to share things" under 3 yrs - 4 yrs

-*-

But it's still all - as it was from the very beginning - failure to encourge the selfish -> social transition through living within a selfish social context.

mildadhd
05-08-16, 07:33 PM
I am focusing on (non food) emotional appetite. (emotional nutrition)





m

mildadhd
05-08-16, 07:48 PM
Infants need emotional nutrition from the primary caregivers to develop "time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation."

What else does infants need to develop "time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation."?




m

SB_UK
05-09-16, 12:53 AM
Infants need emotional nutrition from the primary caregivers to develop "time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation."

m

If we list infant (di)stressors - factors which stunt infant development
- then some form of emotional connection which wanes from complete dependence stage to completely independent stage will be there.

However wouldn't connect it with time sense, self-regulation or self-motivation unless somebody establishes that these're normal characters which should be displayed.

Time sense - 'time flies when you're having fun' - when having fun one does not see the time fly - an absence in time sense - to have time sense would appear to be non-ideal
Self-regulation - 'To be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society is no measure of health' - self-regulation occurs in context of the wider social environment
Self-motivation - As above - it is not possible to be self-motivated in a world in which nobody does anything of any worth.

Ah but that applies only to after the age of 11 yrs - what about prior ?

Well - it's obvious that as soon as children (particularly ADDers) begin school - that the disorder begins - 'To be disordered in a profoundly sick society's establishment schooling is no measure of ill-health'.

-*-

Infants need emotional nutrition from the primary caregivers

And once again - infants can have no emotional nutrition because neither parent has the time because of the pressures of working to make money.

Not until money dissolves and a child is conceived with the best interests of the child in mind - that parent will be able to attach meaningfully to child.
The delayed developmental trajectory of ADDer might mean that attachment extends a little beyond what we've come to expect.


money dissolves
This is the complete solution. ^^^

The problem that exists while money exists is that all from 5yrs to death chase money and not all of social wellbeing - if we shift from a selfish reward system (money) to a social reward system (voluntaryism) then we solve (only mentioning those points of note to this thread)"

1 - Child conceived only with the best interests of the child in mind
2 - Time to spend with child
3 - Adult habituated and Society habituated to social and not selfish reward system
4 - Child grows 'learning' the social way
5 - Interactions between child and peers is social and not competitive in nature

We neatly eliminate all problems by simply shifting from capitalism to voluntaryism.


Infants need emotional nutrition from the primary caregivers
Definitely
to develop "time sense, self-regulation and self-motivation."
Haven't established this link yet - although it seems sensible that chronic distress (amongst other things) 'd disrupt all of those capacities.
The elephant in the closet is society or environment - it's impossible to think of the developing human being as isolated from their social and other environments.

20thcenturyfox
10-07-16, 07:14 PM
...in lower animals?

Consider the frog which can project its "tongue" at the precise moment (or not) required to snag a fly. Of course this feat of opto-glottal coordination involves the appetitive seeking circuits of its little ganglia. But does it not also require some sort of primitive time-sense, self-regulation, and self-motivation? Maybe also a brief learning curve, punctuated by rewards (failing which, removal from the gene pool)? Isn't it likely these same circuits have their analogs in the developing human?

And maybe there are critical time periods in the frog's development for learning these sequences of holding still, what to wait and watch for, and when to initiate. If a newly emerged frog is fed dead flies in a lab will he later be able to teach himself this skill quickly enough to survive?

And finally, although frogs don't have money, there is no guarantee there will always be an abundance of recognizable food to sustain them long enough to reproduce. In fact, I wonder whether Lady Evolution would have had much to do at all (between asteroids, anyway) if plentiful resources had always been available to the lower orders of creatures. So can't we presume most parents throughout the millennia have always had to be somewhat preoccupied with keeping the wolf from the door, so to speak?

Of course the OP is interested in the final elaboration of these circuits in humans after birth, not just anatomically, but developmentally. And when Lady Evolution later rolled the dice again by leaving these last most sophisticated aspects of human neurobiology to be completed in the hands of rank amateurs--primate parents--she gave them no instruction manual.

Even now, for all our work so far with mice and children, we still don't have an instruction manual! (And BTW, the instruction manual may call for "emotional nutrition;" however the behaviourist in me kind of chokes on anything too indulgent-sounding for life out on the savannah...or maybe I would just prefer to think of it in terms of critical types of stimulation, selective attention, and positive or negative feedback at appropriate stages of development.)

So I see I haven't shed much light on OP's question, but I do agree that understanding how these high-level human cognitive abilities develop normally and optimally might shed a lot of light on how things go wrong in ADHD, and point to much more specific and successful interventions.