View Full Version : Why did my ADHD not mature?


mildadhd
07-30-16, 11:23 AM
All humans are born with ADHD.

Not all humans ADHD matures.

Why not?


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mildadhd
07-30-16, 12:14 PM
Did my ADHD not mature partly because i have a more hyperactive-hypersensitive emotional temperament to the emotional environment?

SUPPERTIME

THE EIGHT-year-old daughter is taking her time leaving her toy or book or reveries.

"Hurry up. We want to eat," the father says, tense with hunger and work overload.


The daughter covers her ears.

"Don't yell at me," she complains.

"I am not yelling," the man answers, this time hearing himself raise his voice.

The child's face turns into a picture of pain and despair.

"Mommy, Daddy's being mean to me," she cries.

If the decibel count in that kitchen had been measured when the father first instructed his daughter to hurry, it would not have registered at levels most people would define as yelling.

The daughter's reaction, however, is genuine.

She picks up, senses, experiences the tension in the father's voice, the edge of controlled impatience and frustration.

That is what is translated in her brain as "yelling."

She is feeling exactly the same fear and outrage as another child would if shouted at in an angry manner.

It is a matter of sensitivity, of the degree of reactivity to the environment.

This child is emotionally hypersensitive.

-Gabor Mate Physician, "Scattered", p 58.



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mildadhd
07-30-16, 12:34 PM
What other factors may also partly be involved in why my ADHD did not mature?







G

Little Missy
07-30-16, 12:59 PM
What other factors may also partly be involved in why my ADHD did not mature?






G

What leads you to believe that it did not mature? And what is matured ADHD?

mildadhd
07-30-16, 01:25 PM
What leads you to believe that it did not mature?

Nobody is born with mature self-regulation.



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Stev'o
07-30-16, 01:26 PM
I think as I get older, my ADHD is worse. Or, probably more realistically, as my job responsibilities increase, it feels like my ADHD gets worse.

Drogheda2
07-30-16, 01:34 PM
similar symptom just not the same system.

really, what I'm starting to believe now days with this is that you HAVE matured, we all have. but what that means is we have learned comorbids that replace what we would naturally think as "growth"", while still being growth.

start to excersize the comorbids, medication helps. see a doctor/therapst/pshychologist

mildadhd
07-30-16, 01:35 PM
Development of self-regulation normally takes around 18-21 years or longer, with emotional environmental factors being the most influential during the first 4-7 years.


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mildadhd
07-30-16, 01:41 PM
I think as I get older, my ADHD is worse. Or, probably more realistically, as my job responsibilities increase, it feels like my ADHD gets worse.

Some of the best advice I received about having ADHD, is to keep simple. (Not necessarily simple topics, but simple approach)


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mildadhd
07-30-16, 01:50 PM
similar symptom just not the same system.

really, what I'm starting to believe now days with this is that you HAVE matured, we all have. but what that means is we have learned comorbids that replace what we would naturally think as "growth"", while still being growth.

start to excersize the comorbids, medication helps. see a doctor/therapst/pshychologist

I disagree. It's the same immature biological self-regulation systems as in everyone

Hyperactivity, impulsiveness, inattention are normal traits in everyone in early life, before the age 4-7.

I agree, we are all maturing, and various specific consistent healthy accommodations helps tremendously in areas associated with ADHD and development.


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Little Missy
07-30-16, 02:44 PM
Nobody is born with mature self-regulation.



G

So you are a newborn??!! Your answer didn't make any sense to the query.

Cyllya
07-30-16, 04:18 PM
I think what he means is that all/many/some(?) ADHD symptoms are all things that are normal in children. For example, it's completely normal for children to have poor impulse control compared to adults or older children. You wouldn't expect a three-year-old to remain seated and be quiet through a high school history lecture.

That's why, when diagnosing children, they have to compare the patient to what's normal in that age group. (It's also why some people think ADHD is just pathologizing childhood...)

I can't find it now, but I was recently reading an article that said, when comparing the brain development of humans to primates, the prefrontal cortex in humans develops relatively slowly compared to the rest of the brain. This gives human children crappy behavioral control and whatnot compared to young non-human primates. But the article author was opining that this was some kind of evolutionary trade-off that allows humans to learn better at a young age. In children with ADHD, the prefrontal cortex is less developed than is typical for their age, so maybe some genetic quirk is giving us too much of a good thing.... (If I understand correctly, in autism, the prefrontal cortex is more developed than normal, so they got too much of a different good thing.)

HOWEVER... I think only some ADHD symptoms are normal in childhood, not all of them.

Personally, I've never had major impulse control issues. I was more impulsive when I was a kid of course, but even then, I was actually a bit ahead of the curve in this area. In regards to executive function, my deficits are in attention control (a little), working memory (a lot), planning and organizing (a little), and initiation of tasks (a lot). My "inattentiveness" seems to come more from working memory and initiation issues than actual attention control issues. Is it normal for children to just sort of zone out at random? Do children typically have initiation issues?

I've never had a brain scan to see what's going on with my prefrontal cortex.

Lunacie
07-30-16, 04:26 PM
I think what he means is that all/many/some(?) ADHD symptoms are all things that are normal in children. For example, it's completely normal for children to have poor impulse control compared to adults or older children. You wouldn't expect a three-year-old to remain seated and be quiet through a high school history lecture.

That's why, when diagnosing children, they have to compare the patient to what's normal in that age group. (It's also why some people think ADHD is just pathologizing childhood...)

I can't find it now, but I was recently reading an article that said, when comparing the brain development of humans to primates, the prefrontal cortex in humans develops relatively slowly compared to the rest of the brain. This gives human children crappy behavioral control and whatnot compared to young non-human primates. But the article author was opining that this was some kind of evolutionary trade-off that allows humans to learn better at a young age. In children with ADHD, the prefrontal cortex is less developed than is typical for their age, so maybe some genetic quirk is giving us too much of a good thing.... (If I understand correctly, in autism, the prefrontal cortex is more developed than normal, so they got too much of a different good thing.)

HOWEVER... I think only some ADHD symptoms are normal in childhood, not all of them.

Personally, I've never had major impulse control issues. I was more impulsive when I was a kid of course, but even then, I was actually a bit ahead of the curve in this area. In regards to executive function, my deficits are in attention control (a little), working memory (a lot), planning and organizing (a little), and initiation of tasks (a lot). My "inattentiveness" seems to come more from working memory and initiation issues than actual attention control issues. Is it normal for children to just sort of zone out at random? Do children typically have initiation issues?

I've never had a brain scan to see what's going on with my prefrontal cortex.

Yes, indeed. Some children's brains mature at a typical rate, and some are much slower to mature, and may never be comparable to others in their age group. Dr. Barkley calls this The 30% Rule. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=641396&postcount=18)

Why are some brains slower to mature? I don't think a more sensitive temperament is the whole answer.
.

Fortune
07-30-16, 04:33 PM
I think that "All humans are born with ADHD." is a misleading generalization that doesn't help anyone with any kind of understanding.

Lunacie
07-30-16, 05:09 PM
All humans are born with immature brains. Sure.

Our bodies, our immune systems, our nervous systems, our digestive systems ... all are immature at birth.


Having an immature brain is not the same thing as having ADHD.

It's not just misleading. It's just plain wrong.

mildadhd
07-30-16, 05:56 PM
Why did the development of my self-regulation, not mature slightly as much as normal?(aka ADHD)

Executive Function = Self-Regulation (Dr. Barkley)





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Little Missy
07-30-16, 06:46 PM
Why did the development of my self-regulation, not mature slightly as much as normal?(aka ADHD)







G

Why do you believe that your development of self-regulation has not matured slightly as much as normal?

Lunacie
07-30-16, 06:57 PM
Why did the development of my self-regulation, not mature slightly as much as normal?(aka ADHD)



G


There is definitely a hereditary component. Not a lot more is known for sure yet.

They haven't been studying the brain for that long - compared to other medical sciences.

mildadhd
07-30-16, 11:43 PM
Why do you believe that your development of self-regulation has not matured slightly as much as normal?



-Nobody is born with the ability to self-regulate: hyperactivity, impulses and attention.

All children and young adults must learn to self-regulate.

There are two critical periods of regulation development to recognize reciprocally working together as we mature.
Bottom up preverbal learning and development before the age 4-7, and, top down verbal learning and development after the age of 4-7.

--Children, young adults and adults with a ADHD, have slightly smaller areas of the brain systems involved in emotional regulation and emotional-self-regulation.

With the biggest difference being in higher right orbitofrontal cortex, which is about ~5% smaller in people with ADHD (aka lack of emotional-self regulation), than other humans with better emotional-self-regulation skills.


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mildadhd
07-31-16, 12:00 AM
There is definitely a hereditary component. Not a lot more is known for sure yet.

They haven't been studying the brain for that long - compared to other medical sciences.

Hypersensitive emotional temperament can definitely be a genuine inherited component.

What other components are involved along with a inherited hypersensitive emotional temperament?


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mildadhd
07-31-16, 12:36 AM
So we know there is a possibility we can inherit an emotionally hypersensitive temperament and we know we must have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 4-7.

What happens between birth and age 4-7, that results in a human having slightly underdeveloped self-regulation after the age 4-7?

What happens between conception and birth, that result in a human being born with an emotional hypersensitive temperament?

What happens before conception that may result in a human being born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament?


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mildadhd
07-31-16, 01:38 AM
We also know between birth and age of 4-7 is the critical period for bottom up learning and development of emotional-self-regulation.



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sarahsweets
07-31-16, 02:17 AM
similar symptom just not the same system.

really, what I'm starting to believe now days with this is that you HAVE matured, we all have. but what that means is we have learned comorbids that replace what we would naturally think as "growth"", while still being growth.

start to excersize the comorbids, medication helps. see a doctor/therapst/pshychologist

What are "learned comorbids"?

sarahsweets
07-31-16, 02:21 AM
Is it normal for children to just sort of zone out at random? Do children typically have initiation issues?

I've never had a brain scan to see what's going on with my prefrontal cortex.
I think its more normal for girls with adhd then boys. My three kids all have adhd and the girls definitely had more spacing out/daydream type behaviors then my son did.

Little Missy
07-31-16, 06:27 AM
Why do you believe that your development of self-regulation has not matured slightly as much as normal?

Again, you did not answer this question but only posed more questions.

What exactly leads you to believe that your development of self-regulation has not matured slightly as much as normal?

Lunacie
07-31-16, 10:10 AM
So we know there is a possibility we can inherit an emotionally hypersensitive temperament and we know we must have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 4-7.

What happens between birth and age 4-7, that results in a human having slightly underdeveloped self-regulation after the age 4-7?

What happens between conception and birth, that result in a human being born with an emotional hypersensitive temperament?

What happens before conception that may result in a human being born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament?


G

Those are good questions. But as I mentioned earlier, we don't have the answers yet.

What good does it do to keep asking the questions on this forum when the guys who are studying these issues don't even have the answers? :scratch:

Lunacie
07-31-16, 10:12 AM
Again, you did not answer this question but only posed more questions.

What exactly leads you to believe that your development of self-regulation has not matured slightly as much as normal?

I think mildadhd is saying that research including MRIs have shown under-deveopled areas of the brain in those with ADHD. No one knows what causes this delayed or lack-of development though.

mildadhd
07-31-16, 05:42 PM
I think mildadhd is saying that research including MRIs have shown under-deveopled areas of the brain in those with ADHD. No one knows what causes this delayed or lack-of development though.

Humans born with an epigenetically inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament are genuinely more hyperreactive to emotional circumstances, than humans born with a more robust emotionally sensitive temperament.

We all genuinely know the abnormally consistent emotionally distressful toll, inheriting an emotionally hyperreactive-hypersensitive temperament can be.


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mildadhd
07-31-16, 05:58 PM
We known abnormally consistent early emotional distresses can influence neurodevelopmentally the number and density of dopamine neurones, affecting both secondary brain processes (bottom up learning and memories), and tertiary orbitofrontal cortex (awareness and self-regulation).

(Especially a human born with a more emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and/or experienced consistently abnormal emotionally distressful circumstances.)


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Lunacie
07-31-16, 06:19 PM
Most people with ADHD report being hypersensitive.

But not everyone who is hypersensitive has ADHD.

mildadhd
07-31-16, 11:37 PM
Lunacie, I think my posts make it clear, I do not think a inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament is the only possible factor.

Did my ADHD not mature partly because i have a more hyperactive-hypersensitive emotional temperament to the emotional environment?

G

What other factors may also partly be involved in why my ADHD did not mature?

G

Hypersensitive emotional temperament can definitely be a genuine inherited component.

What other components are involved along with a inherited hypersensitive emotional temperament?

G

So we know there is a possibility we can inherit an emotionally hypersensitive temperament and we know we must have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 4-7.

What happens between birth and age 4-7, that results in a human having slightly underdeveloped self-regulation after the age 4-7?

G


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mildadhd
08-01-16, 12:20 AM
I think that "All humans are born with ADHD." is a misleading generalization that doesn't help anyone with any kind of understanding.

I think it helps to know physiologically that the traits and associated biological systems, involved with ADHD are the same and normal for all humans before the age of 4-7.

What is the difference between saying..

"All humans are born with ADHD."
"All humans are born with a lack of "emotional-self-regulation"
"All humans are born with a lack of "executive function"

Or

Why did my ADHD not mature?
Why did my emotional-self-regulation not mature?
Why did my executive function not mature?




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mildadhd
08-01-16, 01:06 AM
Yes, indeed. Some children's brains mature at a typical rate, and some are much slower to mature, and may never be comparable to others in their age group. Dr. Barkley calls this The 30% Rule. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=641396&postcount=18)



I agree that the 30% rule is a good general guide.

But also wonder if being born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and/or environmental circumstances interfere slightly slowing our development during the critical developmental period of emotional-self-regulation?

We know the rapid rate of development occurring during the critical period of development for emotional-self-regulation before the age of 4-7, declines dramatically after the age of 4-7.

Maybe we simply ran out of time to completely develop, when the rapid rate of development declined naturally, about the age of 4-7?


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mildadhd
08-01-16, 01:22 AM
We know dopamine is involved in our perception of time.

If an inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and/or distressful circumstances in early life can influence the number of dopamine neurons and receptors.

Could having slightly abnormal numbers of dopamine neurons and receptors simply influence our perception of time?



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Lunacie
08-01-16, 11:13 AM
I think it helps to know physiologically that the traits and associated biological systems, involved with ADHD are the same and normal for all humans before the age of 4-7.

What is the difference between saying..

"All humans are born with ADHD."
"All humans are born with a lack of "emotional-self-regulation"
"All humans are born with a lack of "executive function"

Or

Why did my ADHD not mature?
Why did my emotional-self-regulation not mature?
Why did my executive function not mature?




G

ADHD is diagnosed when it can be seen that there are delays in development of self-regulation and executive function.

If all babies are born with pretty much the same level of non-self-regulation and non-executive function, then no delay is apparent. So no diagnosis of ADHD at that point.

It cannot be diagnosed pre- or post-birth by a single genetic marker like Down's Syndrome or a specific enzyme like Tay Sachs.


I do not believe that environment causes or 'triggers' ADHD as the child grows up.

I do believe that environment can affect the severity of ADHD symptoms.

It seems we will never agree on this. I can only hope there is evidence one way or the other in the next 25 years or less before I die.

Lunacie
08-01-16, 11:24 AM
We know dopamine is involved in our perception of time.

If an inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and/or distressful circumstances in early life can influence the number of dopamine neurons and receptors.

Could having slightly abnormal numbers of dopamine neurons and receptors simply influence our perception of time?



G

I only skimmed this article about research on dopamine release in response to stress.

It doesn't mention the time perception and did not consider the presence of disorders such as ADHD, but I thought you might find it interesting.

Dopamine Release in Response to a Psychological Stress in Humans and Its Relationship to Early Life Maternal Care: (http://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/11/2825.full)

mildadhd
08-01-16, 07:36 PM
ADHD is diagnosed when it can be seen that there are delays in development of self-regulation and executive function.

If all babies are born with pretty much the same level of non-self-regulation and non-executive function, then no delay is apparent. So no diagnosis of ADHD at that point.

It cannot be diagnosed pre- or post-birth by a single genetic marker like Down's Syndrome or a specific enzyme like Tay Sachs.


I do not believe that environment causes or 'triggers' ADHD as the child grows up.

I do believe that environment can affect the severity of ADHD symptoms.

It seems we will never agree on this. I can only hope there is evidence one way or the other in the next 25 years or less before I die.

I am not sure who said some of the things, that you are not in agreement about?

Like You, I also think that environmental influences can both worsen or improve the severity of ADHD.

At least, we know we agree that environmental influences can both worsen and improve the severity of ADHD.


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mildadhd
08-01-16, 08:05 PM
I only skimmed this article about research on dopamine release in response to stress.

It doesn't mention the time perception and did not consider the presence of disorders such as ADHD, but I thought you might find it interesting.

Dopamine Release in Response to a Psychological Stress in Humans and Its Relationship to Early Life Maternal Care: (http://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/11/2825.full)

Thanks

What if a child inherited an emotionally hypersensitive temperament associated with ADHD, and also experienced consistent abnormal amount of separation distress or other types of consistent abnormal emotional distresses, before the age of 4-7?

Note: In regards to dopamine and the perception of time. Basic Cell physiology puts my brain to sleep, before I can barely store any memories of cell physiology in my mind. I have tried writing and typing chapters of the stuff. It's like water and oil. Makes my eye lids heavy just thinking about it. That being said, I think I remember part of relationship between perception of time and dopamine is on some molecular level? ( The topics make me feel like having a nap). But Dr. Panksepp and other researchers have some very interesting data on the topics, if your interested? I will try my best to understand the relationship and between dopamine and separation distress and the perception of time, but I am still be a few years from learning and understanding the basic physiology confidently.

Let me know, if you find anything more in regards to the topics.

Thanks


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Lunacie
08-01-16, 08:24 PM
I am not sure who said some of the things, that you are not in agreement about?

Like You, I also think that environmental influences can both worsen or improve the severity of ADHD.

At least, we know we agree that environmental influences can both worsen and improve the severity of ADHD.


G

mildadhd, I thought it made it clear that I do not agree with your opening post claim that all humans are born with ADHD.

I have explained why I do not agree with this.

mildadhd
08-01-16, 09:44 PM
..I do not believe that environment causes or 'triggers' ADHD as the child grows up..



Lunacie, I do not think environment causes or triggers ADHD either.

We already had ADHD.

Our brain systems involved in ADHD never fully developed before the natural dramatic decline in rapid rate of development, occurring at the end the critical period of emotional-self-regulation development, ending about the age of 4-7.

An inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and/or, consistent abnormal types of emotional distresses can slightly interfere with development of emotional-self-regulation.

Emotional-self-regulation never fully developed before the natural critical period of development was over.



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mildadhd
08-01-16, 10:17 PM
We know there is a dramatic decline in the rapid rate of development at the end of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation development about the age of 4-7.






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mildadhd
08-01-16, 10:27 PM
We know before the age of 4-7, is naturally when environmental factors have the most influence on the development emotional-self-regulation.





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Lunacie
08-02-16, 09:15 AM
Lunacie, I do not think environment causes or triggers ADHD either.

We already had ADHD.

Our brain systems involved in ADHD never fully developed before the natural dramatic decline in rapid rate of development, occurring at the end the critical period of emotional-self-regulation development, ending about the age of 4-7.

An inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and/or, consistent abnormal types of emotional distresses can slightly interfere with development of emotional-self-regulation.

Emotional-self-regulation never fully developed before the natural critical period of development was over.



G

Actually, the use of MRI shows that our brains keep developing until well into our 20's, possibly our 30's.

There is a rather large growth spurt in our teens which results in emotional dis-regulation.

Maybe some ADHDers who report no problems until reaching college have less development during that teen growth phase?

mildadhd
08-02-16, 11:03 PM
Development of self-regulation normally takes around 18-21 years or longer, with emotional environmental factors being the most influential during the first 4-7 years.

G


..There are two critical periods of regulation development to recognize reciprocally working together as we mature.
Bottom up preverbal learning and development before the age 4-7, and, top down verbal learning and development after the age of 4-7..

G

Actually, the use of MRI shows that our brains keep developing until well into our 20's, possibly our 30's.


Compare the quotes I made earlier in a couple of posts in this thread discussion, with the quote from your last post.

It seems like we agree again!

G

mildadhd
08-03-16, 01:00 AM
There is a rather large growth spurt in our teens which results in emotional dis-regulation.

Maybe some ADHDers who report no problems until reaching college have less development during that teen growth phase?

We must still have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 12, to meet recommended criteria for diagnoses.

Also, we know the development of emotional-self-regulation is influenced most by the environment earlier in life, and less and less influenced by the environment as we age.


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Lunacie
08-03-16, 09:40 AM
We must still have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 12, to meet recommended criteria for diagnoses.

Also, we know the development of emotional-self-regulation is influenced most by the environment earlier in life, and less and less influenced by the environment as we age.


G

In 1957 the criteria was this:

This pattern will henceforth be referred to as hyperkinetic impulse disorder. In brief summary, hyperactivity is the most striking item. This may be noted from early infancy on or not become prominent until five or six years of age.

In the DSM-II in 1968 the criteria was this:

“The disorder is characterized by overactivity, restlessness, distractibility, and short attention span, especially in young children; the behavior usually diminishes by adolescence”

In the DSM-III they first differentiated between hyperactive and inattentive ADHD.

In the revised third edition of the DSM they again merged the two sub-groups.

When the DSM -IV came out in 1994 it was acknowledged that ADHD sometimes persists into adulthood, and that there are 3 sub-types. And that symptoms must have been present before the age of 7.

Now we have the DSM-V and it says that symptoms must be present before the age of 12.

That's not to say that a diagnosis must be made before the age of 12.

I suspect that those with predominately inattentive ADHD may fly under the radar until well into their teens, or even later depending on the awareness of this disorder in doctors and teachers.

There may be further changes if the DSM is revised yet again.

When the disorder isn't diagnosed until adulthood, not as many symptoms are required to be met.


Quotes taken from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000907/

Lunacie
08-03-16, 09:47 AM
We must still have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 12, to meet recommended criteria for diagnoses.

Also, we know the development of emotional-self-regulation is influenced most by the environment earlier in life, and less and less influenced by the environment as we age.


G

I think the environment has a different impact at different ages.

As a child, the family is the main influence. As a teen, social influence (friends and peers) have more impact.

And as I noted earlier, the brain undergoes another growth spurt in the teen years.

mildadhd
08-03-16, 09:29 PM
I think the environment has a different impact at different ages.



We agree again!!

The environment does have a different impact at different ages.

It also depends on what specific area of development is in discussion.

I am focusing on the critical period of emotion-regulation and emotional-self-regulation.

Consider a human grows in height during the long period from conception til about the age 17-20.

Consider a human grows in emotional-regulation and emotional-self-regulation mostly before the age of 4-7.



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mildadhd
08-03-16, 09:42 PM
critical periods

a critical period is a maturational stage in the lifespan of an organism during which the nervous system is especially sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. If, for some reason, the organism does not receive the appropriate stimulus during this "critical period" to learn a given skill or trait, it may be difficult, ultimately less successful, or even impossible, to develop some functions later in life..


http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1800325#post1800325

Lunacie
08-03-16, 10:47 PM
We agree again!!

The environment does have a different impact at different ages.

It also depends on what specific area of development is in discussion.

I am focusing on the critical period of emotion-regulation and emotional-self-regulation.

Consider a human grows in height during the long period from conception til about the age 17-20.

Consider a human grows in emotional-regulation and emotional-self-regulation mostly before the age of 4-7.



G

Just as kids go through periods of no growth and then what seem like sudden growth spurts physically ...

I wonder if their brains don't mature in the same way. Research has indicated a period of notable brain growth that occurs in the teen years, which is when there is also a noticable physical growth spurt.

Kids appetites increase noticably just before a physical growth spurt. Their bodies seem to automatically prepare.

It could be their appetite for learning and connecting with other people also increases to accomodate new brain connections and brain growth.

mildadhd
08-03-16, 11:13 PM
Consider that anyone diagnosed with ADHD before the criteria changed about 3 years ago, must have had symptoms before the age of 7.

Even the people diagnosed in the about last 3 years, had ADHD before age 7.

Change in criteria was made because young adults and adults with undiagnosed ADHD in their early life, could not allways remember explicitly their implicit early life, before the age of 7, to answer doctors criteria questions.

I am sure there are critical periods of development during the later ages you are focusing on, but humans already have ADHD before then.

We know that the critical period of emotional-regulation and emotional-self-regulation is before the age of 4-7.

Many humans seem to ignore the most important period of brain development completely, in regards ADHD. (Aka, lack of emotional-regulation and lack of emotional-self-regulation)

I do agree that some improvement / development is possible throughout life, (some borderline cases of ADHD do mature), but the rate of development is enormously less after the age of 4-7.


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namazu
08-04-16, 12:21 AM
Many humans seem to ignore the most important period of brain development completely, in regards ADHD. (Aka, lack of emotional-regulation and lack of emotional-self-regulation)
You have often claimed that many people interested in ADHD "ignore" critical periods of early childhood brain development. I'm not sure that's true. :scratch:

There is more to ADHD than poor emotional (self-)regulation, though, at least for me (and per the diagnostic criteria).

Also...could you explain the distinction you are making between "emotional regulation" and "emotional self-regulation"? Isn't all emotional regulation self-regulation? Or by "emotional regulation" (that's not self-regulation), do you mean things like parental attempts to soothe a child?

mildadhd
08-04-16, 12:23 AM
Many humans seem to ignore the most important period of brain development completely, in regards ADHD. (Aka, lack of emotional-regulation and lack of emotional-self-regulation)

G

Edit.

Maybe many humans are not ignoring the topics, but simply do not explicitly remember, implicit memories?

G

namazu
08-04-16, 12:25 AM
Maybe many humans are not ignoring the topic, but simply do not explicitly remember?
Do you mean "remember their own development prior to age 4-7"? ---> I would guess most people don't explicitly remember it very well.
Or "remember to mention it all the time"?
Or something else?

mildadhd
08-04-16, 12:50 AM
..Also...could you explain the distinction you are making between "emotional regulation" and "emotional self-regulation"? Isn't all emotional regulation self-regulation? Or by "emotional regulation" (that's not self-regulation), do you mean things like parental attempts to soothe a child?

Do you mean "remember their own development prior to age 4-7"? ---> I would guess most people don't explicitly remember it very well.
Or "remember to mention it all the time"?
Or something else?

Bottom up learning and development.

It's past my bed time, but am looking forward to discussing more the next few days or so.

G

namazu
08-04-16, 12:56 AM
Bottom up learning and development.

It's past my bed time, but am looking forward to discussing more the next few days or so.

G
OK -- I'm confused now.

"Bottom-up learning and development" isn't a kind of memory as far as I can tell, so that doesn't really answer my question.

If you mean we're not talking enough about "bottom-up learning and development", then that's a different claim. I do think that we should discuss it. I'd be curious to understand how working memory develops, since that's one of the things I struggle with a lot.

Maybe we can both try again later.

mildadhd
08-04-16, 01:34 AM
.

"Bottom-up learning and development" isn't a kind of memory as far as I can tell, so that doesn't really answer my question.


Example.

Babies remember their mothers.

G

SB_UK
08-04-16, 02:30 AM
All humans are born with ADHD.
Not all humans ADHD matures.
Why not?
m

Differing levels of sensitivity and differing levels of insensitive environment.

NonADDer can be driven to distraction in an extremely 'noisy' environment.
ADDers require less noise.

ADDer increased sensitivity explained by KD's, Elaine Aron's HSP qualitative description and Henry and Kamila Markram's 'Intense World Theory' neural mechanism.

Simply a mechanism for increased 'signal' from the environment.

Ordinarily people (nonADDers) chase stimulation (horror movies,fire works, extreme sports etc).
If we're sensitive to information - we don't need to chase stimulation.

Instead - living in a world which is shaped to stimulate people who need stimulation - we're over-stimulated.

Over-stimulated requires us to turn down the volume knob on stimulation - which is what the stimulant medication PARADOXICALLY does.

stef
08-04-16, 03:28 AM
I'm sorry at work so I dont have time to read the whole thread now;
But just re this last post: it seems that some on the ADHD spectrum actually seek stimulation (extreme sports etc).

Lunacie
08-04-16, 08:29 AM
Consider that anyone diagnosed with ADHD before the criteria changed about 3 years ago, must have had symptoms before the age of 7.

Even the people diagnosed in the about last 3 years, had ADHD before age 7.

Change in criteria was made because young adults and adults with undiagnosed ADHD in their early life, could not allways remember explicitly their implicit early life, before the age of 7, to answer doctors criteria questions.

I am sure there are critical periods of development during the later ages you are focusing on, but humans already have ADHD before then.

We know that the critical period of emotional-regulation and emotional-self-regulation is before the age of 4-7.

Many humans seem to ignore the most important period of brain development completely, in regards ADHD. (Aka, lack of emotional-regulation and lack of emotional-self-regulation)

I do agree that some improvement / development is possible throughout life, (some borderline cases of ADHD do mature), but the rate of development is enormously less after the age of 4-7.


G

I don't understand what you mean with the bolded portion of your post.

Humans with ADHD already have it before the earlier ages you are focusing on as well as before the teen growth spurt (physical and brain growth).



Why do you consider the earlier (infant-toddler) development to be more important than the later (teen) development? Just because it happens first?

That's a valid answer if that's what you're saying, I'm just not sure I'd agree. I think all development is important in it's own way.

I'm pretty sure I fell further behind my peers during those teen years than I had been before.




Also ... I am not focusing on any particular age. I'm looking at all development.

mildadhd
08-04-16, 10:18 PM
Lunacie

I am interested in discussing any information you want to present and discuss in regards to why my ADHD did not mature, especially before the age of 7.

I am focusing on before the age of 7, because that is when my normal hyperactive, impulsive and inattentive traits first appear not to mature.

Whatever the reason my ADHD did not mature, it happened before the age of 7.



G

mildadhd
08-04-16, 10:52 PM
I am thinking of some examples of bottom up emotional-regulation to post on the weekend for discussion.

Considering the differences and similarities between bottom up learning and development, and, top down learning and development, at least a little bit, will help understand examples better.



G

mildadhd
08-04-16, 11:05 PM
Differing levels of sensitivity and differing levels of insensitive environment.



True (in my experience).

I think the specifics depend on the individual temperament and circumstances.

While thinking of your quote above, I was also wondering..

Differing levels of sensitivity and insensitivity, and, differing levels of insensitive and sensitive environments?

Thoughts?


G

mildadhd
08-05-16, 08:25 AM
Lunacie

I would also like to know more about the time period of development you are discussing about.

Do you have a link I could read about the information?


G

Little Missy
08-05-16, 09:53 AM
Lunacie

I would also like to know more about the time period of development you are discussing about.

Do you have a link I could read about the information?


G

Google! :)

Lunacie
08-05-16, 10:28 AM
Lunacie

I would also like to know more about the time period of development you are discussing about.

Do you have a link I could read about the information?


G


I did leave a link.

Quotes taken from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000907/

mildadhd
08-05-16, 08:39 PM
And as I noted earlier, the brain undergoes another growth spurt in the teen years.

I am interested in the reading about the "growth spurt in the teen years" you posted about.

I read the link you just posted and I could not find any information about a growth spurt in the teens in regards to ADHD?

Could you provide me a with a page number?

G

Lunacie
08-05-16, 08:44 PM
I am interested in the "growth spurt in the teen years" you mentioned about in the quote in regards to ADHD.

I read the link you just posted and I could not find any information about a growth spurt in regards to ADHD?

Could you provide me a with a page number?

G

Sorry, I didn't save the link because you keep saying that you are focusing only on the time before the age of 4-7.

I found it with a Google search.

mildadhd
08-05-16, 09:19 PM
Sorry, I didn't save the link because you keep saying that you are focusing only on the time before the age of 4-7.

I found it with a Google search.

If you find any information please let me know.

G

mildadhd
08-05-16, 09:25 PM
For whatever combination of individual reasons' self-regulation did not fully mature, everyones' individual reasons were before the age of 7.



G

Fortune
08-06-16, 01:08 AM
Are you saying that development effectively stops at 4-7 years? Because I'm sure that's not really supportable. It conflicts with the 30% rule.

SB_UK
08-06-16, 04:32 AM
I'm sorry at work so I dont have time to read the whole thread now;
But just re this last post: it seems that some on the ADHD spectrum actually seek stimulation (extreme sports etc).

Paradoxical effects of stimulant medication ?

SB_UK
08-06-16, 04:37 AM
True (in my experience).

I think the specifics depend on the individual temperament and circumstances.

While thinking of your quote above, I was also wondering..

Differing levels of sensitivity and insensitivity, and, differing levels of insensitive and sensitive environments?

Thoughts?


G

An individual fields sensitivity.

Physical environment
The external environment doesn't change - an individual is simply more or less sensitive to it.

Social environment
Determined by individuals (bullies etc)

We should find that people who are instrumental in degrading the social environment (bullies etc) are also least sensitive to the physical environment.

IE sensitivity (social) and sensitivity (to informational streams) share a common root.

That resistance/insensitivity to the needs of others (social insensitivity) and resistance/insensitivity to beauty (physical information insensitivity) walk hand in hand.

SB_UK
08-06-16, 04:41 AM
I'm sorry at work so I dont have time to read the whole thread now;
But just re this last post: it seems that some on the ADHD spectrum actually seek stimulation (extreme sports etc).

Surely stimulant activities and Stimulant medication have the same effect in the brain ie paradoxical effect of stimulant medication operates in stimulant activities.

The 'paradoxical' word separates ADDers from nonADDers - ADDers are doing it to achieve normality (stop the pain) not because the activity is positively rewarding.

I've found that stimulant medication can stop working - and the experience is simply of stimulant medication losing their paradoxical effects and becoming truly stimulatory - very unpleasant.

Ritalin has this effect from the start.
Dexedrine recently.

Even a few granules of caffeine in coffee (I use decaffeinated coffee with a measured dose (tiny fraction of a tsp - down to 1/16th tsp) of normal coffee for experimental observation - leads to painful (profuse sweating) over-stimulation - so I'm (actually at this precise point in time) - observing.

mildadhd
08-06-16, 05:35 AM
Are you saying that development effectively stops at 4-7 years? Because I'm sure that's not really supportable. It conflicts with the 30% rule.


No, I am not saying development stops at the age 4-7.

I am saying the amount and rate of brain development is much much more before the age of 4-7.


The brain grows at an amazing rate during development. At times during brain development, 250,000 neurons are added every minute! At birth, almost all the neurons that the brain will ever have are present. However, the brain continues to grow for a few years after birth. By the age of 2 years old, the brain is about 80% of the adult size.

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dev.html

SB_UK
08-06-16, 05:38 AM
We know there is a dramatic decline in the rapid rate of development at the end of the critical period of emotional-self-regulation development about the age of 4-7.

G

Haven't thought about this post - just tried it out.


People often begin to learn things at age 7, age 11 years - and I'd like to think people can learn throughout their lives.

Learning - some new neurones, some re-arrangement of neurones, some strngthening of neurones - a bit like we might need a road between 2 places, might need to re-arrange existing roads to feed into this road - and then might need to make this road into a motorway.
We need an efficient design ie least possible building to facilitate travel.
^^ principle of science - parsimony - the least (though still sufficient) possible.

Might learning in this context be considered mental development - which is possible (without referencing relative importance) from birth to death ?

Isn't there rapid developmental phase of the brain rather than mind (fundamentals) ?
Followed by pruning of the overgrown garden (separating the 'wheat from the chaff') ?
And then re-arrangement of the plants within the garden (consistency or ecosystem formation strengthens ideas by providing support) ?
And then development of each (the acquisition of personal quality)

So - we lay down connections between every possible point and then eliminate them towards changing the 'concrete jungle' into an efficient transport network.

Learning at the neural levels follws the principle of science at the mental level ?

Slightly difficult part of ^^^ this is that there's learning of [a] autonomous (involuntary) and [2] mental (knowing one's name etc) and [3] autonomous again (doing something learnt eg driving a car without thought).
Personally I like the idea of [2] dissolving into [3].
It's nice to operate in an autonomous space without the interference of labels. When one paints - there's no need for words of explanation.

[a] - start
nothing
[b] After process of rapid neural development
|\///||\\\\|||\\\\|\\\\
[c] Pruning
|\/||\/||\/|
[d] Rearrangement
/|\/|\/|\/|\
[e] Development - quality
/|\
/|\
/|\/|\/|\/|\

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_pruning

-*-

This is easy enough to work up - but the reason that I'm not really trying is that since distress destroys all learning - that all we need do is use simple human intuition to determing what causes distress - to eliminate distress - from which socail/physical environment learning will occur unimpeded ie no matter how well one knows that eating sugary, starchy fat will kill you - only when no longer attracted - can science be said to have succeeded.

-*-

Thinking

Simply - live in a world without co-ercion in which there's human wisdom from people understanding the process of evolution from Big Bang to human beings currently into seeing how the pattern for evolution can extrapolate into the future (even if we can't see how) ... ... distress alleviated - the human thinking mind will come (and go) leaving personal quality acquisition (informational sensitivity as described by Henry and Kamila Markram in 'Intense World Theory') as our new thing.

Makin this idea even simpler.

We were always going to reach the point where we'd acquired sufficient information to understand human context - it was inevitable.
Simply to see that we've enough currently - and that armed with an understanding of an evolutionary process (which is what scientific evidence has been heading) which explains the entire process of creation - to simply go with its flow (the creation of globally collaborative, creative social structures) towards seeing in future emergent evolutionary events.

But what about the issue of when does rapid development of any aspect of neural development occur ?

If we've a validated social, physical environment without distress for any lifeform.
If we've a model to build a mind from incomplete to complete (the Theory of Everything).
Then we've people working collaboratively, imaginatively, creatively, socially - innovating novel mechanisms for human quality acquisition for people to acquire quality.
And all people from birth to death are engaged in a developmental specific form of quality (cf learning paradigm as described at the start of this post ie neural loss, neural gain, synaptic pruning, synaptic re-arrangement and axonal development (myelination ?) - then time-frames don't particularly matter.

But what of time-frames ?
Just look at when people learn to do / actually do things - and that should give us some idea of time-frames.

-*-

A key point that is made over and over is that child neural/mental development is influence by safe attachment - but attachment is prevented by societal concerns ie mother needing to get back to work through fear of losing her job, 'and theboy was something that mother couldn't wear' ... ... so we've (in effect) using just these 2 ideas -
(i) the desire for money,
(ii) the process for earning money and then
(iii) the actual use of money.

Wisdom (acquisition of morality) eliminates (i), eliminates the ability to pay attention to (ii) and removes the need (attraction) for anything that (iii) can purchase.

-*-

Bringing it all together - there's very definitely a developmental time-frame on learning (neural circuit formation) - but we need to eliminate (prevent) poor development (see above) and to allow what should happen naturally - to happen naturally.

We can't re-define schedules for learning - a developmental schedule (from balance through wisdom to quality) is pre-defined or the overarching schedule is pre-defined ... ... all that we can do is stop throwing a spanner into the works and thereby preventing an evolutionary scheme from unwinding in the manner that it's pre-defined so to do.

Unmanagable
08-06-16, 09:22 AM
Isn't it also possible that the decline in mental and physical health from an early age is very closely related to what we ingest, breathe, and surround ourselves with?

We blindly follow the script laid out for us, all the while unknowingly and indirectly greatly affecting ourselves and our children in the worst of ways (indirectly to many, especially since our society constantly teaches and heavily markets about how "healthy" much of the worst toxicity is).

From my direct experiences in finding my own vitality at the ripe old age of 49, I've learned I've been the greatest contributor to my own decline, as well as the greatest contributor to my own improved health, mainly via what I allow into, on, and around my body.

Kids of any age don't have a chance as long as the parents are continually misled and misfed right along with them, from the way I see things.

Lunacie
08-06-16, 10:39 AM
No, I am not saying development stops at the age 4-7.

I am saying the amount and rate of brain development is much much more before the age of 4-7.
.

How many neurons we have is only part of the equation. The article you linked goes on to say this:


By the age of 2 years old, the brain is about 80% of the adult size.

You may wonder, "How does the brain continue to grow, if the brain has most of the neurons it will get when you are born?". The answer is in glial cells.

Glia continues to divide and multiply. Glia carries out many important functions for normal brain function including insulating nerve cells with myelin.

The neurons in the brain also make many new connections after birth.
.

mildadhd
08-06-16, 02:08 PM
.

How many neurons we have is only part of the equation. The article you linked goes on to say this:



.

We agree again!!!

My post have always reflected that there more than one part to the equation.



G

mildadhd
08-06-16, 02:26 PM
AGE BW - Male (grams) BW - Female (grams)
-------- ----------------- -----------------
Newborn 380 360
1 year 970 940
2 years 1,120 1,040
3 years 1,270 1,090
10-12 years 1,440 1,260
19-21 years 1,450 1,310
56-60 years 1,370 1,250
81-85 years 1,310 1,170

Note about 80% of our brain develops by the age of 2.

(Approximately 90% of our brains develop by the age 4-7)

(Approximately 10% of our brains develop after the age of 7)

The rate of development is much more, over a much shorter period of time, in early life, this is called the critical period of brain development.

And we know all of us have ADHD before the age of 7.

G

Lunacie
08-06-16, 02:55 PM
We agree again!!!

My post have always reflected that there more than one part to the equation.



G

I'm not sure what you think we agree about?

You say most brain growth occurs during the pre-school years.

I'm saying that although the brain doesn't grow as much in size after those early years, a lot of changes and connections are taking place after those early years.

Those changes and connections may be just as important, or even more important, than the actual growth in size.


I've gotten the impression from your posts that you believe that what happens to the human brain before the age of 4 or 7 is more important than what happens to our brains after that age.

I haven't seen the evidence that supports that opinion, so my mind is not made up yet.

Lunacie
08-06-16, 02:57 PM
Note about 80% of our brain develops by the age of 2.

(Approximately 90% of our brains develop by the age 4-7)

(Approximately 10% of our brains develop after the age of 7)

The rate of development is much more, over a much shorter period of time, in early life, this is called the critical period of brain development.

And we know all of us have ADHD before the age of 7.

G

I don't think that brain growth is the same thing as brain development.

Although the rate of brain growth slows considerably after the age of 7, there are still developments going on the brain after that age.

mildadhd
08-06-16, 04:48 PM
We know we all have ADHD impairment before the age of 7.

Age 4-7 is an average guideline.

Why did my ADHD not mature, before the age of 4-7?

Why did my ADHD not mature, after the age of 4-7?

How does ADHD mature, before the age of 4-7?

How does ADHD mature, after the age of 4-7?

Preverbal BrainMind development, mature, before, verbal MindBrain development.

What happens before the age of 4-7, affects, what happens after the age of 4-7.




G

mildadhd
08-06-16, 05:09 PM
How does the environment influence BrainMind development, before the age of 4-7?

How does the environment influence MindBrain development, after the age of 4-7?


G

mildadhd
08-06-16, 05:17 PM
Lunacie

The critical period for bottom up learning and development, is before the age of 4-7.

The critical period for top down learning and development, is after the age of 4-7.

We know ADHD did not mature, before the age of 4-7.



G

Lunacie
08-06-16, 07:29 PM
Lunacie

The critical period for bottom up learning and development, is before the age of 4-7.

The critical period for top down learning and development, is after the age of 4-7.

We know ADHD did not mature, before the age of 4-7.



G

Let's go back the beginning, okay?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "ADHD did not mature."

How does a mental health disorder "mature?"

What do you mean by "mature?"

mildadhd
08-06-16, 11:00 PM
Let's go back the beginning, okay?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "ADHD did not mature."

How does a mental health disorder "mature?"

What do you mean by "mature?"

Sure.

If a person grows out of ADHD, the person was not cured, the person matured.


G

BellaVita
08-06-16, 11:30 PM
What are "learned comorbids"?

I don't like that term - but I think my OCD was partially "learned."

Starting at a young age, my father would make me wash my hands if I touched a certain thing(one of his biggest concerns were "dog germs" - if I literally barely touched our dog once I had to wash my hands before participating in things/going in the car/hugging him/putting away food/eating/using furniture/etc.) he gave me "instructions" on how to properly use a public restroom so that I wouldn't touch anything (quite excessive lemme tell you), made me perform certain rituals, and made me clean things like the couch if it got "dog germs" on it.

I'm sure there are other things he made me do I'm not thinking of. Oh, and he would yell and curse at me (or throw/break things) if I didn't do exactly as he said/if I forgot to do it/if I wasn't doing it fast enough.

Doing that for years trained my brain, and I developed a full-blown case of OCD.

I think him doing that was a huge trigger in developing my own case of OCD.

mildadhd
08-06-16, 11:31 PM
Let's go back the beginning, okay?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "ADHD did not mature."

How does a mental health disorder "mature?"

What do you mean by "mature?"



Sure.

If a person grows out of ADHD, the person was not cured, the person matured.




Like children who grow out of hyperactive, inattentive and impulsive traits before the age of 4-7 mature.


G

mildadhd
08-07-16, 12:29 AM
The rate of development is much more before the age of 4-7.

The rate of development declines dramatically by the age of 4-7.

The rate of development is much less after the age of 4-7. (Takes much longer for some maturation to occur)


G

mildadhd
08-07-16, 01:22 AM
Because this thread is getting long, and there is still lots to discuss about the topics, I started a new thread to focus specifically on preverbal learning and development.

"How do babies learn to remember their mothers?"

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1828666#post1828666


G

SB_UK
08-07-16, 03:32 AM
Aaaagh - I think that these 2 posts belongs to that ^^^ thread.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262889/
If any kind of sensory input at this age can drive oxytocin function, then it is going to be refined and entrained to be a very easy neural computation and perhaps a releaser of oxytocin later in life—the smell of the mother, the feel of her fur, her body temperature, her posture, the way she grooms herself and others, etc—these are the multisensory subtleties that mice should process quickly after such developmental experience is encoded in the brain.suggestion

early 'sensory' system development driven through attachment
optical sensory input
aural sensory input
olfactory sensory input
tactile sensory input

Next begins mind (understanding) alongside improvement in sensory pattern recognition until mind completes and sensory pattern recognition (doors to perception) takes over.

So - initial attachment as the basis for the later development of 'quality' - sensory quality sensing machinery ?

HSPs are to be found (Elaine Aron) throughout the animal kingdom - not restricted just to man.

SB_UK
08-07-16, 03:34 AM
That's interesting - sensory development kickstarted by attachment - that makes sense.

Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth ->develops into-> Reward from social/sensory behaviour at wisdom

Since oxytocin/vasopressin of posterior pituitary contrast with stress hormone of anterior pituitary - likely that a distressful environment will impart imbalance ie over-laden AP side will prevent PP side from being accessed.

Still though - model is simply one of elimination of distress.

Where distress is defined as shifting the individual away from physiological bounds into what will become pathophysiology.
Eustess - operating within the full scope (+ / -) of physiological bounds.

Too much usage - eg nerve - deletion
Too little usage - eg nerve - deletion

The problem we have is that we need a mind to know what is eustressful and what is distressful ie

Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth*->develops into-> Reward from social/sensory behaviour at wisdom*2
Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth* ->devel^
Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth* ->devel|
Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth* conditional on mind*3 [ie ensuring that the stressed out anterior pituitary shuts down the posterior pituitary]

* - attachment in the newborn provides the survival essential development of sensorymachinery tied to 'reward'
*2 - all human reward required imparted through sensory channels
*3 - wisdom removes the need for reward obtained through external (stimulation) channels.

But what is ADHD ?
See above.

ADHD appears to be birth into the wisdom structure of mind ie sufficient reward from existence through sensory channels.
Development (atachment) very definitely required.
One would have thought more so - is a more sophisticated pattern of sensory informational handling facility is being laid down -
from previously - 'we take longer to learn better' - 3 - 4 year developmental delay in ADHD (often doesn't catch up)

See 'Intense World Theory' - pain in autism through increased sensory information upload ie increased stimulation from external environment - mechanism provided by Markrams.

Also - explaining paradoxical effects of stimulants - ADDers are over-stimulated - stimulants 'reduce' the stressed state back to normality

Persistent over-stimulation.
Stimulant neural and endocrine resistance syndromes.
Require exogenous stimulant (excess amounts) to correct resistance syndrome.

-*-

So ... ... bringing it all together - sounds good ... ...

mildadhd
08-07-16, 04:00 AM
Aggggghgaaaaahahahahaha,

This post belongs with those two posts by SB_UK, in thatthread.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262889/
suggestion

early 'sensory' system development driven through attachment
optical sensory input
aural sensory input
olfactory sensory input
tactile sensory input

Next begins mind (understanding) alongside improvement in sensory pattern recognition until mind completes and sensory pattern recognition (doors to perception) takes over.

So - initial attachment as the basis for the later development of 'quality' - sensory quality sensing machinery ?

HSPs are to be found (Elaine Aron) throughout the animal kingdom - not restricted just to man.

I think those parts are definitely involved.

I wonder if it would be easiest to consider all three: homeostatic primary affects and sensory primary affects and emotional primary affects, every-time? (Primary, secondary and tertiary processes, horizontally and vertically, bottom up and top down)?

Specific discussion order would depend on inherited temperament and circumstances, but always still consider all three primary affects operating together in some order every-time?


G

SB_UK
08-07-16, 04:00 AM
ADDers are simply gifted a reward system which when appropriately developed takes sensory input as its sole requirement for reward.
The mind has been 'bypassed' ie the hole which exists in man (need for speed) which was required for us as a mechanism by which to propel the understanding of context (definition of the evolutionary mechanism).

So ... ... this holds ... ...
Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth*->develops into-> Reward from social/sensory behaviour at wisdom*2
Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth* ->devel^
Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth* ->devel|
Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth* conditional on mind*3 [ie ensuring that the stressed out anterior pituitary doesn't shut down the posterior pituitary]

-- except it's a bit different in nonADDer vs ADDer

ie

nonADDer needs exogenous stimulation
ADDer doesn't

However - in the absence of conditional on mind -> distress -> failure in Reward from social/sensory behaviour at birth -> and naturally therefore failure in Reward from social/sensory behaviour at wisdom*2

Also - increased duration required in social/sensory development (giving rise to apparent developmental delay) -> required to impart the machinery referenced in the Markram's 'Intense World Theory' - more sophisticated sensory - cerebellar - motor loop circuit formation ie the very basis to personal quality/sensitivity development.

SB_UK
08-07-16, 04:12 AM
I think those parts are definitely involved.
I wonder if it would be easiest to consider all three: homeostatic primary affects and sensory primary affects and emotional primary affects, everytime?
Specific discussion order would depend on temperament and circumstances, but always still consider all three primary affects operating together in some order every-time?
G

There are physiological bounds for homeostasis, sensory input, emotional input ie if exceeded in either direction eustress leads into distress.

Homeostatic (see eustress / distress)
Sensory (see eustress / distress)
Emotional (see eustress / distress)

However - we're not simply springs which have an elastic limit - since we can develop ie the spring can change.

Persistent education (learning/training) can extend the spring (improved personal quality) but at each stage of development of the spring - there're still bounds in place for eustressful physiology - broken down into homeostatic, sensory and emotional compartments.

SB_UK
08-07-16, 04:15 AM
So - observation of ADDers - if sufficiently activated through sensory channels - would be of 'low achievers' in current society since the essential drive (greed) for success is missing.
Not functionally low achievers - just low achievers in a paradigm where achiving is balanced upon greed.

That works also.

Actually more disposed to true creativity - just not selfishly imbued - as the individual isn't receiving positive reward from selfish endeavour -

the explanation why nothing (any form of achievement from sporting through academic to workplace) EVER seems to float our boat.

SB_UK
08-07-16, 04:18 AM
The problem of reward through sensory channels in current society is that the individual (without greed based propulsion) will develop a maladaptive low sense of self-esteem - as measured by the yardstick of society ie the capacity to reach some position of hierarchical power - ADDers will fail without the essential pre-requisite - which is 'wanting to' - or rather being compelled to - through lack of 'lower' reward system.

Or in simple language when man evolved from fish - and continued to compete in deep sea diving competitions at the Fishalympics - man was seen to sytematically fail year upon year at each and every event.

-*-

Where do ADDers excel ?

Simply customized to high personal quality acquisition in a distress-less environment [as described above].
'Take longer to develop better pattern matching machinery' - this line of thinking feeds neatly into a change in diet from growth (nerve sell number) to re-arrangement - ie HDAC inhibitor diets involving SCFAs from biomic digestion of raw fruit and veggies.

Couldn't give a hoot abou the acquisition of money, power, fame, recognition etc - these are all aspects of the flawed reward system of modern man - where ADDers are post-modern man.

The irony though that modern man - shaping the image of future man in the reward system of modern man - saw future man as the pinnacle of material world hierarchy ie bigger than normal people, faster than normal people etc ie all of the competitions which human beings engage in to win (Olympics etc) - however - what actually did happen was the emergence of a novel species in which personal internal sensory pattern recognition quality to the inclusion of others and not physical world development to the suffering of others (see Olympics etc) - was to be supported.

Very sensible.

SB_UK
08-07-16, 04:27 AM
ADDED

Where do ADDers excel ?

Simply customized to high personal quality acquisition in a distress-less environment [as described above].
'Take longer to develop better pattern matching machinery' - this line of thinking feeds neatly into a change in diet from growth (nerve sell number) to re-arrangement - ie HDAC inhibitor diets involving SCFAs from biomic digestion of raw fruit and veggies.

SB_UK
08-07-16, 04:28 AM
Emergence of new type of man - Emergence of global T2D/Obesity epidemic as dietary change doesn't mirror novel metabolic profile

Nearly ... ... ...

What's missing ?
Seems to add up.

Lunacie
08-07-16, 09:45 AM
Sure.

If a person grows out of ADHD, the person was not cured, the person matured.


G

Like children who grow out of hyperactive, inattentive and impulsive traits before the age of 4-7 mature.


G

Kids who seem to "grow out" of ADHD symptoms may not grow out of ALL the symptoms.

Studies are showing that kids who become less hyperactive and impulsive, so that they don't meet the diagnostic criteria, still have reduced brain volume and poorer memory function.

This suggests that the current criteria may not be showing the whole picture.

Children May Not Actually ‘Grow Out’ Of ADHD After All (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/children-may-not-grow-out-of-adhd_us_55e07f8ee4b0c818f6178e56)

.

Lunacie
08-07-16, 09:50 AM
I don't think that brain growth is the same thing as brain development.

Although the rate of brain growth slows considerably after the age of 7, there are still developments going on the brain after that age.

The rate of development is much more before the age of 4-7.

The rate of development declines dramatically by the age of 4-7.

The rate of development is much less after the age of 4-7. (Takes much longer for some maturation to occur)


G

If by brain development, you are going only by the size changes, you'd be right.

But there is a lot more development that occurs even when the size growth slows down.

MRI research has shown that even adults with ADHD symptoms have some areas of the brain that are smaller ... or less developed ... than NT brains.

It's like we start out behind the norm and never quite catch up, eh?

mildadhd
08-07-16, 10:25 AM
Like children who grow out of hyperactive, inattentive and impulsive traits before the age of 4-7 mature.

When I referred to children maturing, who grow out of hyperactive, inattentive and impulsive traits. I was referring to how all children mature, in general.

There is no brain damage in people with ADHD.

G

mildadhd
08-07-16, 10:35 AM
Still, these results don’t necessarily suggest that all — or even most — of the adults should be diagnosed with ADHD again.

“Since part of the diagnosis of ADHD is that not only symptoms are present but that they are impairing life in some way, the study may not contradict previous findings,” Dr. Mark Bertin, a developmental pediatrician and author of The Family ADHD Solution, who was not involved in the study, told The Huffington Post in an email. “As well, parts of the brain related to ADHD may mature until almost 30, beyond the age in this study. So people may not experience ADHD-related impairments but still have the sorts of findings seen in the study.”

Quotes above from the article link you posted.


G

Lunacie
08-07-16, 10:47 AM
When I referred to children maturing, who grow out of hyperactive, inattentive and impulsive traits. I was referring to how all children mature, in general.

There is no brain damage in people with ADHD.

G

I don't know what difference it makes whether you were referring to kids with ADHD or to all kids in general.

No one said there is brain damage in people with ADHD.

Having some areas of the brain be smaller doesn't mean they are damaged, only that something delayed the development of those areas.

And as I pointed out, it's possible those areas of the brain never catch up in terms of size or other development.

Lunacie
08-07-16, 10:51 AM
Quotes above from the article link you posted.

“Since part of the diagnosis of ADHD is that not only symptoms are present but that they are impairing life in some way, the study may not contradict previous findings,” Dr. Mark Bertin, a developmental pediatrician and author of The Family ADHD Solution, who was not involved in the study, told The Huffington Post in an email. “As well, parts of the brain related to ADHD may mature until almost 30, beyond the age in this study. So people may not experience ADHD-related impairments but still have the sorts of findings seen in the study.”

G

You focused on the first sentence of that quote.

I was saying that current criteria may not take into account other symptoms of impairment like memory issues, which is covered in the last sentence of the quote above.

The criteria and the name for ADHD have changed over the years as more is learned about the disorder.

I don't see those changes stopping because we've learned everything now. There is more to learn.

mildadhd
08-07-16, 11:21 AM
I don't know what difference it makes whether you were referring to kids with ADHD or to all kids in general.

No one said there is brain damage in people with ADHD.

Having some areas of the brain be smaller doesn't mean they are damaged, only that something delayed the development of those areas.

And as I pointed out, it's possible those areas of the brain never catch up in terms of size or other development.

When I was referring brain growth, I was referring to the normal enormous rate of brain growth and development, before the age of 4-7, verses after the age of 4-7.

Also as noted before in this thread, critical period of development, before the age of 4-7 is the most influenced by environmental factors.

And since we all have symptoms of ADHD, before the age of 4-7.

This period of development may provide the best opportunity for treatment and lessening of severity.

G

mildadhd
08-07-16, 03:41 PM
I was saying that current criteria may not take into account other symptoms of impairment like memory issues,



Lunacie

I agree.

Consistent abnormal amounts of cortisol, partly due to experiencing various forms of unintentional consistent abnormal emotional distresses, can interfere with development of the hippocampus and other brain areas involved in learning and memories.

Families often experience unintentional consistent abnormal forms of emotional distresses, in our societies.

Some children are born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament.

The combination of an inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament and and families experiencing forms of unintentional consistent abnormal emotionally distressful circumstances in our societies', could partly account for the slightly less (~5%) underdevelopment of subcortical and neocortical areas of the brain associated with ADHD, during the early critical period before the age of 4-7.


G

Lunacie
08-07-16, 04:58 PM
When I was referring brain growth, I was referring to the normal enormous rate of brain growth and development, before the age of 4-7, verses after the age of 4-7.

Also as noted before in this thread, critical period of development, before the age of 4-7 is the most influenced by environmental factors.

And since we all have symptoms of ADHD, before the age of 4-7.

This period of development may provide the best opportunity for treatment and lessening of severity.

G

I can't agree that all children have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 7.

If those symptoms only appear sometimes, in some situations, it's not ADHD.

If the symptoms are present across all situations (home, play, school) it's a good idea to ask a doctor if it could be ADHD.

All kids could use some help in capitalizing on strengths and finding creative solutions to weaknesses.

Kids with ADHD and other mental health disorders would benefit even more from this kind of early intervention.

We are seeing more early intervention for kids with Autism, and hopefully we'll see more early intervention for kids with ADHD when doctors are better able to tell which kids have a bigger problem with the symptoms than their peers.

Saying that all kids have symptoms of ADHD makes it very difficult to tell which kids would benefit most from that early intervention.

mildadhd
08-07-16, 05:19 PM
I can't agree that all children have symptoms of ADHD before the age of 7.

If those symptoms only appear sometimes, in some situations, it's not ADHD.

If the symptoms are present across all situations (home, play, school) it's a good idea to ask a doctor if it could be ADHD.

All kids could use some help in capitalizing on strengths and finding creative solutions to weaknesses.

Kids with ADHD and other mental health disorders would benefit even more from this kind of early intervention.

We are seeing more early intervention for kids with Autism, and hopefully we'll see more early intervention for kids with ADHD when doctors are better able to tell which kids have a bigger problem with the symptoms than their peers.

Saying that all kids have symptoms of ADHD makes it very difficult to tell which kids would benefit most from that early intervention.

Nobody is born with mature self-regulation.

It is normal for all young children have signs of ADHD, because all humans normally do not have the mature ability to self-regulate attention, impulses and hyperactivity, before the age of 4-7.

All children diagnosed with ADHD, must have these symptoms before the age of 4-7.

I also think it is extremely important to recognize that we are discussing about are the same brain systems involved in inattention, impulsivity and hyperactivity, biologically, whether the person has ADHD or not.

There is no damaged brain areas, there are areas of the same brain systems involved, that do not mature before the age of 4-7, in people diagnosed with ADHD.

Why did my self-regulation not mature?

G

mildadhd
08-07-16, 05:46 PM
I most especially do not think we should wait 25 years or so to discuss and learn more about the most influential period of development in regards to origin, treatment, lessening of severity, and maybe even prevention of in some cases.

G

Lunacie
08-07-16, 06:30 PM
Nobody is born with mature self-regulation.

It is normal for all young children have signs of ADHD, because all humans normally do not have the mature ability to self-regulate attention, impulses and hyperactivity, before the age of 4-7.

All children diagnosed with ADHD, must have these symptoms before the age of 4-7.

I also think it is extremely important to recognize that we are discussing about are the same brain systems involved in inattention, impulsivity and hyperactivity, biologically, whether the person has ADHD or not.

There is no damaged brain areas, there are areas of the same brain systems involved, that do not mature before the age of 4-7, in people diagnosed with ADHD.

Why did my self-regulation not mature?

G

I agree that nobody is born with mature self-regulation skills.

But we do have all kinds of charts that show what a typical range of development is for each age group.


Kids with ADHD are much less mature in their self-regulation skills than others in their age group are.

So I continue to disagree with you that all children have symptoms of ADHD.


Why are we developmentally delayed compared to our peers?

We only know part of that answer, but research continues to look for answers.

I'm glad they're not waiting 25 years to do this research because I'll be dead by then.

I do believe that information and education and especially early intervention can lessen the severity of symptoms of ADHD.

A year ago I would have said I don't believe there will ever be a cure. But I heard a Ted Talk one day that shows promise in changing basic DNA and perhaps curing certain physical disorders.

mildadhd
08-07-16, 07:21 PM
Lunacie,

I do not think I have ever said all humans are born with symptoms of ADHD, if so could you tell me where?

I have said that all humans are born with ADHD, in the OP.

Sorry, I should have wrote, "all humans are born with signs of ADHD", in the OP.




G

Lunacie
08-07-16, 07:54 PM
When I was referring brain growth, I was referring to the normal enormous rate of brain growth and development, before the age of 4-7, verses after the age of 4-7.

Also as noted before in this thread, critical period of development, before the age of 4-7 is the most influenced by environmental factors.

And since we all have symptoms of ADHD, before the age of 4-7.

This period of development may provide the best opportunity for treatment and lessening of severity.

G

Happy to help. Didn't have to look back very far at all.

Lunacie,

I do not think I have ever said all humans are born with symptoms of ADHD, if so could you tell me where?

I have said that all humans are born with ADHD, in the OP.

Sorry, I should have wrote, "all humans are born with signs of ADHD", in the OP.


G

Then you said that no one is born with mature self-regulation.

You moved the goal post back to birth. I understand the confusion.

mildadhd
08-07-16, 08:05 PM
Why are we developmentally delayed compared to our peers?

We only know part of that answer, but research continues to look for answers.



For clarity, in your opinion, what part do we know, in regards to why we are developmentally delayed compare to our peers?

I think a combination of...

1)inherited emotionally hypersensitive temperament,

2)varying unintentional consistent abnormal emotion distresses,

3)and the normal dramatic decline in the rate of development at the end of the early critical period of development, about the age of 4-7

...are all factors in the delayed development associated with ADHD.


G

mildadhd
08-07-16, 08:09 PM
When I was referring brain growth, I was referring to the normal enormous rate of brain growth and development, before the age of 4-7, verses after the age of 4-7.

Also as noted before in this thread, critical period of development, before the age of 4-7 is the most influenced by environmental factors.

And since we all have symptoms of ADHD, before the age of 4-7.

This period of development may provide the best opportunity for treatment and lessening of severity.

G

Actually, in that post, when I was referring to "we", i was talking about all people with ADHD have symptoms before the age of 4-7, which is true.

So, for clarity, I did not say all people are born with symptoms of ADHD. in this thread.

G

mildadhd
08-07-16, 08:21 PM
I admit I made a mistake when I forgot the word "signs".

In two posts i made the same mistake, I should have wrote, "All people are born with signs of ADHD", instead of "All people are born with ADHD"

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1826939&postcount=1

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1827312&postcount=32

Other than that mistake I admit to making, after my correction, do you have any other disagreements, in any of my posts, in this thread?


G

Fortune
08-07-16, 08:48 PM
Nobody is born with mature self-regulation.

It is normal for all young children have signs of ADHD, because all humans normally do not have the mature ability to self-regulate attention, impulses and hyperactivity, before the age of 4-7.

Then by the definition of ADHD no one shows signs of ADHD before age 4, because it is indistinguishable from typical development. ADHD only shows itself at age 4 or later when developmental trajectories diverge.

Also, when you ask "why did my ADHD not mature?" You're not relating something that really happened. A more nearly accurate question would be "Why didn't my brain mature at the same rate as NT brains?" because ADHD doesn't involve a cessation of maturation, but rather a 30% slowdown.

mildadhd
08-07-16, 10:42 PM
I'm tired, but I would like to respond and continue the discussion next week.

Thanks for focusing discussion on early developmental period, before the age of 4-7.

G

Lunacie
08-07-16, 11:01 PM
The great majority of research was done on elementary age children.

Unless a youngster is in a pre-school where differences between him or her and the other children is noticeable, a doctor doesn't have the scientific background available to diagnosis a child before the age of 4 or 5.

Children younger than 6 have not been included in research on medication to treat ADHD, which further inhibits diagnosis and treatment in young children.

So even if, or when, the signs point to ADHD, it isn't generally diagnosed before the age of 5.

And even though many children are hyperactive or inattentive or rebellious, when the observers compare them to their typically-developing peers the problem can certainly be seen because of the degree of those traits or signs or symptoms or whatever word you want to use today.


A note on the words used and their meaning:
What is the difference between a sign and a symptom of disease?

A symptom is a phenomenon that is experienced by the individual affected by the disease, while a sign is a phenomenon that can be detected by someone other than the individual affected by the disease.

Kids under the age of 4, or those experiencing developmental delays of up to 30%, may have difficulty expressing the symptoms they are feeling.
With my granddaughter who is autistic and age 14, we still depend on the signs we are seeing more than what she is able to tell us about her symptoms.

SB_UK
08-08-16, 04:42 AM
Still interested in that idea - that 'sensory neuroscience' develops through maternal attachment - (neural development between birth and mind (abstract expression) coming alive [age 4 yrs]) - 'sensory neuroscience' explains away the human drive towards opening the 'doors to perception'.

mildadhd
08-08-16, 11:31 PM
Still interested in that idea - that 'sensory neuroscience' develops through maternal attachment - (neural development between birth and mind (abstract expression) coming alive [age 4 yrs]) - 'sensory neuroscience' explains away the human drive towards opening the 'doors to perception'.

Me too!

I was late for work this morning because I went to bed to late, yesterday.

Best for me to wait til the weekend.


We already feel alive before 4 years of age.

[birth til approx age 4, implicit mind]

Tertiary level not completely alive yet.

Secondary level of implicit memories about feelings without thought

Primary level of alive feelings (preverbal)



We start to think we feel alive after 4 years of age.

Example.

[4 years til we retire, explicit mind]

Tertiary level of alive thoughts (verbal)

Secondary level of implicit and explicit memories about feelings without and with thought.

Primary level of alive feelings (preverbal)


(I do not think that we need to decide at this time which of the 3 primary level affect (Sensory, Emotional or Homeostatic) evolved first, as long as we recognize all three primary affects and all three brain processing levels, at different the ages of development)

Looking forward to reading, replying, and discussing the physiology of the topics that everyone has presented more, on the weekend.

G

mildadhd
08-08-16, 11:49 PM
affective implicit perception and cognitive explicit perception?


G

mildadhd
08-12-16, 11:16 PM
[birth til approx age 4, implicit mind]

Tertiary level not completely alive yet.

Secondary level of implicit memories about feelings without thought

Primary level of alive feelings (preverbal)


Because we are discussing preverbal development, we must include biological terminology to better describe and promote awareness about preverbal development.

Children learn to top-down self-regulate bottom-up emotional-regulation, in a relationship with a "maternal regulator".

Separation stress, in essence, is a loss of maternal regulators of the infant’s immature behavioral and physiological systems that results in the attachment patterns of protest, despair, and detachment. The principle that ‘a period of synchrony, following the period of stress, provides a “recovery” period’ (Chapple, 1970, p. 631) underlies the mechanism of interactive repair (Tronick, 1989; Schore, 1994). The primary caregiver’s interactive regulation is therefore critical to the infant’s maintaining positively charged as well as coping with stressful negatively charged affects. These affect regulating events are particularly impacting the organization of the early developing right hemisphere.

http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/SchoreAttachHumDev.pdf


Our emotions originate in the lower subcortex, not the neocortex. (ADHD or not)

Our negative and positive feeling primary unconditioned emotional response systems are SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, LUST, CARE, GRIEF and PLAY (ADHD or not)

No human is born with the ability to self-regulate our emotions. (ADHD or not)

We all learn to self-regulate our emotions (ADHD or not).

We all require at least one healthy maternal regulator (ADHD or not).

Hyperactivity, impulsivity and inattentivity are all normal early traits during the first few years of early childhood. (ADHD or not)

Executive functions = Self-regulation (ADHD or Not)

To conclude, this column has attempted to show that ADHD is a disorder of self-regulation. Self-regulation requires that a person have intact executive functions (EFs). The EFs are specific types of self-regulation or self-directed actions that people use to manage themselves effectively in order to sustain their actions (and problem-solving) toward their goals and the future. I have tried to show that ADHD is both SRDD (self-regulation deficit disorder) and so is also EFDD. By understanding this relationship among these terms, we can understand that people with ADHD havedifficulties using the mental forms of self-directed actions we all use to manage ourselves effectively
so as to attain our goals and see to our long-term welfare. To deal with the problems ADHD creates, we will need to understand that it involves EF deficits and that such deficits can be compensated for by modifying the environment and making other accommodations so as to both buttress and facilitate the individual’s use of their own self-control.

http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/ADHD_EF_and_SR.pdf

Any one disagree so far...?

G

mildadhd
08-12-16, 11:33 PM
I think we all agree that ADHD can be described as slight deficit in self-regulation (at least)?

Meaning our top-down ability to self-regulate bottom-up primary regulation, is slightly impaired.

I am looking for terminology that we all agree with.

Anyone disagree so far?

G

Lunacie
08-13-16, 09:39 AM
I don't consider 30% (or more) impairment to be "slight."
.

mildadhd
08-13-16, 11:25 AM
What causes ADHD is not completely known but magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) has shown that children with ADHD have slightly smaller brains, especially in frontal cortical areas (~5%) involved in executive functions (e.g., impulse control) and coordination of movements (Krain & Castellanos, 2006).

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/ADHD_and_Play


Lunacie

I would like to read more about where you are getting your statistics and what the statistics are based upon scientifically?


I don't consider 30% (or more) impairment to be "slight."



G

mildadhd
08-13-16, 01:00 PM
I think we should learn how the BrainMind/MindBrain develops.

Focusing on early time period between being born an emotionally hypersensitive temperament, and, having symptoms of ADHD about age 4-7.


G

Lunacie
08-13-16, 01:12 PM
In youth with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), the brain matures in a normal pattern but is delayed three years in some regions, on average, compared to youth without the disorder, an imaging study by researchers at the National Institutes of Health’s (NIH) National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) has revealed. The delay in ADHD was most prominent in regions at the front of the brain’s outer mantle (cortex), important for the ability to control thinking, attention and planning.

Among 223 youth with ADHD, half of 40,000 cortex sites attained peak thickness at an average age of 10.5, compared to age 7.5 in a matched group of youth without the disorder.

Research only recently focused on other issues than the size of the main lobes of the brain. I suspect there is more to be found as the research continues.

from: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2007/brain-matures-a-few-years-late-in-adhd-but-follows-normal-pattern.shtml


Given these deficits, Dr. Barkley suggests that kids with AD/HD generally have a developmental lag of 30 percent, which means that parents and teachers should assume that these kids have an emotional age 30 percent below their actual age. Readiness for milestone activities such as babysitting, driving, or going away to college can be greatly affected by such a lag.

From: http://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/dr-russell-barkley-ad-hd-theory-diagnosis-and-treatment-summary/

mildadhd
08-13-16, 02:55 PM
Given these deficits, Dr. Barkley suggests that kids with AD/HD generally have a developmental lag of 30 percent, which means that parents and teachers should assume that these kids have an emotional age 30 percent below their actual age. Readiness for milestone activities such as babysitting, driving, or going away to college can be greatly affected by such a lag.

Very interesting research focusing on development after the age of 4-7 (like you said).

.."an emotional age 30 percent below their actual age".

I am focusing partly on the natural decline in emotional implicit age of development about the age of 4-7.

I wonder what is the difference between emotional age and implicit age (of development)?


G

Lunacie
08-13-16, 03:09 PM
.."an emotional age 30 percent below their actual age".

Decline in emotional age around the age of 4-7?

I wonder what is the difference between emotional age and implicit age (of development)


G

Barkley was actually referring to several areas where delayed development is seen in those with ADHD, emotional development is just one of them.

He does not say there is a "decline" in emotional age. He says that emotional age is not maturing at the same rate as those who don't have ADHD.

As I pointed out up-thread, the delay has probably always been part of the maturation process, it just becomes more noticible about the time kids start pre-school or kindergarten.

mildadhd
08-13-16, 03:52 PM
Barkley was actually referring to several areas where delayed development is seen in those with ADHD, emotional development is just one of them.

He does not say there is a "decline" in emotional age. He says that emotional age is not maturing at the same rate as those who don't have ADHD.

As I pointed out up-thread, the delay has probably always been part of the maturation process, it just becomes more noticible about the time kids start pre-school or kindergarten.

The dramatic decline in emotional implicit development before the age of 4-7 occurs naturally, ADHD or not.

I do not think that the natural decline in development is the only part, but is part, along with being born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament and some types of environmental experiences, resulting in delay.


G

Lunacie
08-13-16, 04:03 PM
The dramatic decline in emotional implicit development before the age of 4-7 occurs naturally, ADHD or not.

I do not think that the natural decline in development is the only part, but is part, along with being born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament and some types of environmental experiences, resulting in delay.


G

Okay, there is a natural decline in the rate of development, but that's not what you said first.

You said there was a decline in the emotional age, not in the rate of development.

mildadhd
08-13-16, 04:09 PM
Okay, there is a natural decline in the rate of development, but that's not what you said first.

You said there was a decline in the emotional age, not in the rate of development.

Development before the age of 4-7 is emotional.

If we want to understand cognitive development after the age of 4-7, we must understand emotional development before the age of 4-7.



G

mildadhd
08-13-16, 06:33 PM
[birth til approx age 4, implicit mind]

Tertiary level not completely alive yet.

Secondary level of implicit memories about feelings without thought

Primary level of alive feelings (preverbal)


Because the tertiary level processes are not completely alive yet, all young children require at least one nurturing-self-regulator to help the child feel secure and learn to emotional-self-regulate. (especially children who are born with a more emotionally hypersensitive temperament.)

Consider some examples of the genetic, instinctual, unconditioned emotional response systems that feel good and promote development, originating deeply subcortical in the BrainMind, in early life.

Example

SEEKING/enthusiastic
CARE/tender and loving
PLAY/joyous

G

mildadhd
08-13-16, 06:46 PM
Separation stress, in essence, is a loss of maternal regulators of the infant’s immature behavioral and physiological systems that results in the attachment patterns of protest, despair, and detachment. The principle that ‘a period of synchrony, following the period of stress, provides a “recovery” period’ (Chapple, 1970, p. 631) underlies the mechanism of interactive repair (Tronick, 1989; Schore, 1994). The primary caregiver’s interactive regulation is therefore critical to the infant’s maintaining positively charged as well as coping with stressful negatively charged affects. These affect regulating events are particularly impacting the organization of the early developing right hemisphere.

http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/SchoreAttachHumDev.pdf

Considering and promoting a recovery period, after a period of distress of any type seems extremely important to be aware of, for everyone involved, in regards to prevention and treatment.

Thoughts?

G

mildadhd
08-13-16, 07:35 PM
ATTACHMENT THEORY IS FUNDAMENTALLY A REGULATORY THEORY


http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/SchoreAttachHumDev.pdf


G

Lunacie
08-13-16, 08:13 PM
Okay, you asked me a question, but apparently you don't want to discuss that question or answer.

Here is more information provided by long term research about the decline of development after the very early years being followed by a second spurt of growth around puberty.

It was long believed that a spurt of overproduction of gray matter during the first 18 months of life was followed by a steady decline as unused circuitry is discarded. Then, in the late l990s, NIMH's Dr. Jay Giedd, a co-author of the current study, and colleagues, discovered a second wave of overproduction of gray matter just prior to puberty, followed by a second bout of "use-it-or-lose-it" pruning during the teen years.

The new study found that the first areas to mature (e.g., extreme front and back of the brain) are those with the most basic functions, such as processing the senses and movement. Areas involved in spatial orientation and language (parietal lobes) follow. Areas with more advanced functions — integrating information from the senses, reasoning, and other "executive" functions (prefrontal cortex) — mature last.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2004/imaging-study-shows-brain-maturing.shtml

And it says that the first areas to mature include learning to control movement and processing sensory input. And probably includes learning to process emotion.

Does that address your question of understanding early emotional development before looking at later cognitive development?

Lunacie
08-13-16, 08:16 PM
Considering and promoting a recovery period, after a period of distress of any type seems extremely important to be aware of, for everyone involved, in regards to prevention and treatment.

Thoughts?

G

Preventing and treating what?

Distress can certainly cause PTSD, anxiety and depression, which can all inhibit cognitive processes.

But does lack of distress prevent mental disorders? Isn't some amount of stress a normal part of life?

mildadhd
08-13-16, 11:12 PM
Bottom-up primary/secondary/tertiary implicit emotional-regulation emerges early in evolution and is among the first to mature. (before 4-7)

Top-down tertiary/secondary/primary explicit emotional-self-regulation emerges later in evolution, "and is among the last to mature." (after 4-7)

The prefrontal cortex, which handles reasoning and other "executive" functions, emerged late in evolution and is among the last to mature....late-maturing areas is less influenced by heredity than areas that mature earlier

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2004/imaging-study-shows-brain-maturing.shtml



G

mildadhd
08-13-16, 11:15 PM
Preventing and treating what?



Deficits of Self-Regulation.

G

mildadhd
08-14-16, 01:49 AM
Bottom-up, surpluses of emotional-regulation, and, deficits of emotional-self-regulation. (birth til 4-7)

Top-down, deficits of emotional-self-regulation, and, surpluses of emotional-regulation. (4-7 til retirement)




G

Lunacie
08-14-16, 11:09 AM
Considering and promoting a recovery period, after a period of distress of any type seems extremely important to be aware of, for everyone involved, in regards to prevention and treatment.

Thoughts?

G

Preventing and treating what?

Distress can certainly cause PTSD, anxiety and depression, which can all inhibit cognitive processes.

But does lack of distress prevent mental disorders? Isn't some amount of stress a normal part of life?

Deficits of Self-Regulation.

G

I know that ADHD causes deficits in self-regulation.

Is that also true of PTSD?

I would think that preventing stress would be the only prevention possible, and life can be quite stressful, especially to someone with a highly sensitive personality.

Before one can provide a period of recovery as treatment, one must first realize there has been something stressful happening. With kids under 4, they are not always able to verbalize their feelings.

mildadhd
08-14-16, 05:59 PM
I know that ADHD causes deficits in self-regulation.

Is that also true of PTSD?

I would think that preventing stress would be the only prevention possible, and life can be quite stressful, especially to someone with a highly sensitive personality.

Before one can provide a period of recovery as treatment, one must first realize there has been something stressful happening. With kids under 4, they are not always able to verbalize their feelings.

ADHDs are partly deficits of self-regulation.

Cannot always prevent consistent emotional-distresses, but maternal-regulators can learn to respond with a period of emotional-recovery for everyone in mind, following emotionally distressful experiences.

Because there are different forms of distressful experiences (acute, chronic, emotional, sensory, homeostatic, etc...), and different ages/stages of development, to individually partly consider.

I am all for focusing the discussion on the specific consistent emotional-distresses we experience during the early years of life, as a result of inheriting an emotionally hypersensitive temperament, as parts.

G

Lunacie
08-14-16, 06:49 PM
ADHDs are partly deficits of self-regulation.

Cannot always prevent consistent emotional-distresses, but maternal-regulators can learn to respond with a period of emotional-recovery for everyone in mind, following emotionally distressful experiences.

Because there are different forms of distressful experiences (acute, chronic, emotional, sensory, homeostatic, etc...), and different ages/stages of development, to individually partly consider.

I am all for focusing the discussion on the specific consistent emotional-distresses we experience during the early years of life, as a result of inheriting an emotionally hypersensitive temperament, as parts.

G

I don't really remember much of any experiences from my birth to starting kindergarten.

I probably had a good parent/child bond until sisters and a brother came along and mom was busy.

I vaguely remember being in a hospital room following surgery to remove a sty from my eyelid. Age 4?

And I vaguely remember sitting on the floor beside my father in the evening and watching black and white tv.

mildadhd
08-14-16, 07:59 PM
I don't really remember much of any experiences from my birth to starting kindergarten.

I probably had a good parent/child bond until sisters and a brother came along and mom was busy.

I vaguely remember being in a hospital room following surgery to remove a sty from my eyelid. Age 4?

And I vaguely remember sitting on the floor beside my father in the evening and watching black and white tv.

The child leads but it would be the maternal-regulators that would learn to be aware and respond by providing a period of emotional-recovery for everyone in mind, following emotionally distressful experiences, partly due to child being born with a more hyperreactive-hypersensitive temperament, in this case.




G

Lunacie
08-14-16, 08:24 PM
The child leads but it would be the maternal-regulators that would learn to be aware and respond by providing a period of emotional-recovery for everyone in mind, following emotionally distressful experiences, partly due to child being born with a more hyperreactive-hypersensitive temperament, in this case.




G

I don't think you ever explained how a parent realizes his or her child has a more hypersensitive temperament than his or her peers?

mildadhd
08-14-16, 08:49 PM
I don't think you ever explained how a parent realizes his or her child has a more hypersensitive temperament than his or her peers?

By recognizing any individually consistent emotionally distressful responses, to start.

(and responding by providing a period of emotional-recovery)

G

Lunacie
08-14-16, 09:12 PM
Everything about my autistic granddaughter was inconsistent from the beginning.

Not so much so with my adhd granddaughter.

And both were quite different than their mother had been as a youngster.


Could you give me some idea of what kind of responses a parental figure could recognize in order to help the child and support the child?

mildadhd
08-16-16, 08:59 PM
Everything about my autistic granddaughter was inconsistent from the beginning.

Not so much so with my adhd granddaughter.

And both were quite different than their mother had been as a youngster.


Could you give me some idea of what kind of responses a parental figure could recognize in order to help the child and support the child?

Let's work on answering your question together.

A temperament consists of 3 kind of primary response systems.

Emotional, Homeostatic and sensory response systems.

So we are looking for moderate to severe hyperreactive, emotional, homeostatic, and sensory responses.

(In progress, first draft)

(Everyone's idea's appreciated)

G

Lunacie
08-16-16, 10:14 PM
I wasn't asking for you to name the reactions so much as give examples.

mildadhd
08-16-16, 11:15 PM
I wasn't asking for you to name the reactions so much as give examples.

I find it important to include the biology involved in the explanation.

I have more information and examples in general to post, including examples of my temperament and experiences.

Are you following me so far?

G

Lunacie
08-17-16, 09:32 AM
I find it important to include the biology involved in the explanation.

I have more information and examples in general to post, including examples of my temperament and experiences.

Are you following me so far?

G

Yes, I understand that you need to include the biology involved.

However, simply repeating the same phrases about SEEKING etc, and top-down bottom-up doesn't help me to understand.

I find it more helpful to have examples that bring those phrases to life and make them more relatable.

Just when I thought we were actually having a discussion I'm back to thinking we are so different that a real conversation is not possible. :umm1:

mildadhd
08-17-16, 10:37 PM
Could you give me some idea of what kind of responses a parental figure could recognize in order to help the child and support the child?



However, simply repeating the same phrases about SEEKING etc, and top-down bottom-up doesn't help me to understand.



Great question in the first quote above!

However, if you check, I have not repeated any of those phrases, you claimed I repeated in the second quote above, since you asked the great question?

During the weekdays, my employer will fire me if use the Internet while am working, I will post better examples on the weekend, when I am not so tired.

G

Lunacie
08-17-16, 10:48 PM
Great question in the first quote!

However, if you check I have not repeated any of those phrases, since you asked the great question in the quote above.

My employer will fire me if use the Internet while am working, I will post examples on the weekend, when I am not so tired.

G

Those are your stock answers to any and all questions, not just this one time, but many times over the past months or years.

I understand that is your area of interest, but you really haven't expanded on the information in a meaningful way.

mildadhd
08-18-16, 12:11 AM
Those are your stock answers to any and all questions, not just this one time, but many times over the past months or years.

I understand that is your area of interest, but you really haven't expanded on the information in a meaningful way.

As we both know, waiting can be frustrating.

I have been semi practicing "waiting" until the weekend to reply/post, for over a year.

It is a great accomplishment to have a little self-control, to actually plan and learn to wait, until the weekend to reply.

As you can see, it is Wednesday, and I am not waiting until the weekend to post-reply so well, let's see if I can make it to the weekend.



G

mildadhd
08-18-16, 12:46 AM
Lunacie

Here is an example of an emotionally hypersensitive child.


SUPPERTIME

THE EIGHT-year-old daughter is taking her time leaving her toy or book or reveries.

"Hurry up. We want to eat," the father says, tense with hunger and work overload.

The daughter covers her ears.

"Don't yell at me," she complains.

"I am not yelling," the man answers, this time hearing himself raise his voice.

The child's face turns into a picture of pain and despair.

"Mommy, Daddy's being mean to me," she cries.

If the decibel count in that kitchen had been measured when the father first instructed his daughter to hurry, it would not have registered at levels most people would define as yelling.

The daughter's reaction, however, is genuine.

She picks up, senses, experiences the tension in the father's voice, the edge of controlled impatience and frustration.

That is what is translated in her brain as "yelling."

She is feeling exactly the same fear and outrage as another child would if shouted at in an angry manner.

It is a matter of sensitivity, of the degree of reactivity to the environment.

This child is emotionally hypersensitive.

-Gabor Mate Physician, "Scattered", p 58.



G

mildadhd
08-18-16, 01:06 AM
Here is some more discussion examples, please take it easy on me while I practice waiting until the weekend.

..Sensitivity is the reason why allergies are more common among ADD children than in the rest of the population.

It is well known, and borne out again and again in clinical practice, that children with ADD are more likely than their non-counterparts to have a history of frequent colds, upper respiratory infections, ear infections, asthma, eczema and allergies, a fact interpreted by some as evidence that ADD is due to allergies

Although the flare-up of allergies can certainly aggravate ADD symptoms, the one does not cause the other.

They both are expressions of the same underlying inborn trait: sensitivity...

-Gabor Mate Physician, "Scattered", p 59.



G

Lunacie
08-18-16, 08:47 AM
Mild ... thank you for the first example. That really helps me to understand about recognizing the traits of hypersensitivity.



Dr. Mate says that he sees a connection between allergies and ADHD in his clinical practice.

I googled for corroborating information on this connection and don't really find anything.

I did read that sometimes allergies are misdiagnosed as ADHD. Interesting.

mildadhd
08-19-16, 09:21 PM
Example.

My temperament is hypersensitive to emotional stresses.

My temperament is hypersensitive to dust mites.

My temperament is hypersensitive to cats.


My temperament is hypersensitive to emotional distresses, dust mites, cats...


G

mildadhd
08-19-16, 09:27 PM
Side note, I love cats, but am allergic to cats, dust mites, emotional distresses..

G

Lunacie
08-19-16, 09:36 PM
Example.

My temperament is hypersensitive to emotional stresses.

My temperament is hypersensitive to dust mites.

My temperament is hypersensitive to cats.


My temperament is hypersensitive to emotional distresses, dust mites, cats...


G

Interesting ... I've always thought of temperament as innate parts of the personality (like being introverted or extroverted).

I'm hypersensitive to most scented products, and actually allergic to a few. I ended up in the ER two weeks ago after being "gassed" by perfume.

mildadhd
08-19-16, 09:48 PM
I'm hypersensitive to most scented products, and actually allergic to a few. I ended up in the ER two weeks ago after being "gassed" by perfume.

Yes, me too..

Certain types make my lips numb, head pound.

Certain types of deodorant feel like it burns skin under my armspits.

Hydrogenated oils give me night sweats..

All making my deficit of emotional-self-regulation even more taxing.


G

mildadhd
08-19-16, 09:51 PM
Interesting ... I've always thought of temperament as innate parts of the personality (like being introverted or extroverted).



Temperament is innate.

G

mildadhd
08-19-16, 09:55 PM
A temperament is Sensorially, Homeostatically and Emotionally, innate.


G

Lunacie
08-20-16, 11:57 AM
Interesting ... I've always thought of temperament as innate parts of the personality (like being introverted or extroverted).

I'm hypersensitive to most scented products, and actually allergic to a few. I ended up in the ER two weeks ago after being "gassed" by perfume.

Temperament is innate.

G

I think you missed my point. I thought of temperament as affecting personality (mental and emotional).

I had not thought of it as affecting one physically as well, like with allergies.

mildadhd
08-20-16, 01:17 PM
I think you missed my point. I thought of temperament as affecting personality (mental and emotional).

I had not thought of it as affecting one physically as well, like with allergies.

Always remember to consider approximate age and stage of development.

We are focusing on development from before birth until approximately 4-7 years of age, in this thread.

Psychologically, temperament from before birth until about the age of 4-7 is mostly raw homeostatic, raw emotional, raw sensory genetic behaviors'.

Cognitive epigenetic behaviours are mostly not completely alive, until after the age of 4-7.

Emotional then mental.




G

Lunacie
08-20-16, 01:20 PM
Always remember to consider approximate age and stage of development.

We are focusing on development from before birth until approximately 4-7 years of age, in this thread.

Psychologically, temperament before birth until about the age of 4-7 is mostly raw homeostatic, raw emotional, raw sensory genetic behaviors'.

Cognitive epigenetic behaviours are mostly not completely alive, until after the age of 4-7.




G

:confused: It feels like you hear me saying "Blah blah lah ba blah."

And then go right on with the discussion you are having inside your head.

Which seems very repetative to me.

Sorry, I've tried and I can't seem to really get involved in a discussion with you.

mildadhd
08-20-16, 01:32 PM
:confused: It feels like you hear me saying "Blah blah lah ba blah."

And then go right on with the discussion you are having inside your head.

Which seems very repetative to me.

Sorry, I've tried and I can't seem to really get involved in a discussion with you.

You keep discussing about development after the age of 4-7.

This thread is focusing on development before birth until the age of 4-7.

Please consider the difference.

If children show symptoms of deficits in the development of emotion-self-regulation after the age 4.

Then.

I want to know how the brain develops before the age of 4.

G

Lunacie
08-20-16, 01:44 PM
You keep discussing about development after the age of 4-7.

This thread is focusing on development before birth until the age of 4-7.

Please consider the difference.

If children show symptoms of deficits in the development of emotion-self-regulation after the age 4.

Then.

I want to know how the brain develops before the age of 4.

G

I've been trying to understand delays or deficits in development from birth onwards.

I don't think development stops at age 4, so I have trouble limiting my discussion to a few years.

But I don't feel you are actually discussing. You are just repeating the same information, waiting for someone to say the magic words to let you know that they get your point. I don't know what those words are.

mildadhd
08-20-16, 02:14 PM
I've been trying to understand delays or deficits in development from birth onwards.

I don't think development stops at age 4, so I have trouble limiting my discussion to a few years.

But I don't feel you are actually discussing. You are just repeating the same information, waiting for someone to say the magic words to let you know that they get your point. I don't know what those words are.



I think development occurs throughout life, but the rate and amount of development of emotional-self-regulation occurs mostly before the age of 4.

That is why I cannot ignore emotional development before birth until about the age of 4-7..

I simply cannot understand why anyone would, in regards to origins and treatments of deficits of self-regulation?

I will not reply to any of your questions that involve repeating about development before the age of 4-7, just so you know the only reason why I am not replying.

Discussing development after the age of 4-7, without including development before the age of 4, makes it impossible to accurately discuss development after the age of 4-7, in regards to development and deficits in self-regulation.

G

Lunacie
08-20-16, 04:10 PM
I think development occurs throughout life, but the rate and amount of development of emotional-self-regulation occurs mostly before the age of 4.

That is why I cannot ignore emotional development before birth until about the age of 4-7..

I simply cannot understand why anyone would, in regards to origins and treatments of deficits of self-regulation?

I will not reply to any of your questions that involve repeating about development before the age of 4-7, just so you know the only reason why I am not replying.

Discussing development after the age of 4-7, without including development before the age of 4, makes it impossible to accurately discuss development after the age of 4-7, in regards to development and deficits in self-regulation.

G

I don't ignore development at any age.

But again, what you are doing isn't really what I consider to be a discussion.

Have a lovely day. I'm going to stop following this thread.

mildadhd
08-21-16, 08:49 PM
So, I was born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament but my abnormal deficits in emotional-self-regulation did not exist before the age of 4.

Why did my emotional-self-regulation not mature "normally" between birth and the age of 4?

G

SB_UK
08-23-16, 03:10 AM
So, I was born with an emotionally hypersensitive temperament but my abnormal deficits in emotional-self-regulation did not exist before the age of 4.

Why did my emotional-self-regulation not mature "normally" between birth and the age of 4?

G

Because sensitivity is our novel property.
It's a good think in a moral society.

A very bad thing in the nonsense world we live in currently.

SB_UK
08-23-16, 03:16 AM
If the ADDer is simply defined as a 'Highly Sensitive Person' - then all of our problems go away.
However - a new society is required for HSPs to live since sensitivity must not be allowed to move into hypersensitvity - at which point stress (a debilitating stress which decimates the immune system) abounds at every step.

Stress when talking to somebody weho's boasting.
Stress when talking to somebody who's trying to sell you something.
Stress when talking to somebody who wants to talk about how to make more money.
Stress when surrounded by kids or adults who're competing to beat you (mostly for power or money)


It's that the ADDer derives no reward in any ^^^ of those and so needs reward in a bottle to comply.
There's no intrinsic interest in what people are expected to do in this world.

We need to take medication to comply.

We are, of course capable of doing it all - but not in competition with anybody.

A simple way to imagine it - is that the world is set up currently as a football game in which every 10 seconds a player spends 1 minute randomly switching to the other side.
The species is responsible for scoring eevr so many own goals (decimating innovation) - just because the competitive paradigm is required to be adhered to.

SB_UK
08-23-16, 03:34 AM
ADHD is simply
'we take longer to learn better' - a different underlying profile of transducing the external world into the internal world (increasing sensitivity as described by the Markrams) and this machinery takes longer to develop.
Problem with machinery that takes longer to develop by learning is that in the absence of time to learn about the world and then to develop our 'senses' ie science and art - in the absence of art and science education which works - we're particularly exposed.

So that's it - poor education in

science - which emphasizes application (tech which destroys the world) and not understanding of reality
art - which emphasizes being artistically better than other people in one area by some metric and not being the best that one can be in all areas.

The two key aspects of education which're broken in this world.

Social sciences (language, sociology, law, politics) all fail in the absence of people without a mind (no science) or love of quality (no true trainign in art) ... ... economics not voluntaryism presides -

it's all just a colossal failure in education.

The one sentence summary which corrects all problems ie prevents all problems.

Is that the mind isn't a tool for knowing stuff but is a tool for knowing in deep detail - the difference between right and wrong. From this point, what we see is that science is rescued from application to understanding - the individual cements in moral nature - and then makes the realization that we've actually 'completed ' mind - the transition from understanding to morality to appreciation of beauty.

And in simple language - through this transition we end up 'back in the garden' - but not because the Garden changed - but because we are required to change in order to 'see' (sensory experience) the Garden.

-*-

What's the core difference between nonADDer and ADDer ?
Simply the mechanism (opening of the doors of perception) which NonADDer was required to do by wisdom - has occurred by virtue of birth in ADDer.

ie ADDer is of fundamentally different type to nonADDer and can be understood as predisposed to 'wisdom' phenotype.

However - what is required is proper scientific and artistic training in order that the state of mind which is arived at by a ninADDer through wisdom - is experienced by the ADDer when they time comes.

The advantage (when we realise all of this) - is that we can dismantle nonsense competitive paradigms and formulate a workable society based on the novel properties of 'new' man - enforcedly social in nature - which is explained away by a reward system which is customized to beauthy - and is (in effect) not anti-social - because the reward system (to compete) is eliminated at birth.

What could be more stupid than trying to beat another person in an evolutionary paradigm in which nothing in the world around us is hard or real - all fabricated by a progression which is autonomous in nature - and which works to a pattern.

The pattern can be seen as duality in what we call reality - so deeply present that we're often blind to its existence.

The projection of 'opposites' from commonality to generate information.

Can only yield information by fabricating + and - from zero - the point though being that each bit of actual information is required to originate from a zero progenitor.

Universe fielding net zero information.

wikiP/net zero Universe

Aye Aye Capn.

SB_UK
08-23-16, 03:47 AM
The take home message is simply that ADDers are evolutionary progressions of nonADDers or postmodern man as emergent children of modern man.
That ADDers represent a clear evolution of consciousness (this is the zero which gives rise to + and -) where the expression of consciousness (potential) in man - is represented in ADDer as increased sensory (informational) sensitivity.

This sensitivity is exactly what we'd expect as an evolutionary progression as what we're looking for is a higher structure to be recognized and a higher structure which is recognized ie consciousness cannot be said to have evolved until the structure (which exists out there) ie high resolution information is recognized by the pattern matching machinery which exists within us (the sensory cortex - cerebellar - motor cortex loop) ... ... and so that is what evolution has performed.

In effect we could see modern man as a structure which models the structure of the 'real' Universe and that postmodern man as a structure which models a higher resolution of structure in the sensory realm.

structure of 'real' Universe -> science
structure in 'sensory' realm -> art

Back up a post or two - we've bad science and bad art taught in education - and all were required to do is to establish morality in science (mostly through people turnng to creativity and away from money) alongside a model for reality - and everything else will resolve.

Will we still make tech innovations ? Yes but far better than currently where there're all these competing brands which decimate speed of innovation.
Will we create art ? Yes - but much more so this time.

So - the entire profile of personal experience whilst alive will shift from drudgery to a labour of love.

No reward in a bottle required to drive motivation or quell stress - life will become a personally rewarding exercise in quality of understanding context thereafter quality in recognition of the material world.

SB_UK
08-23-16, 04:15 AM
So - what's missing ?

[1] Time to develop longer - solved as above
[2] Inappropriate - parent-child (parents no longer stress out the slower achieving non-competitive daydreamer child) and child-child and child-generic adult relationships - solved as above
[3] Absence in reward in life - solved as above
[4] Hypersensitiviey - solved as above

etc


The simplest of messages - all that's required is that education has indoctrinated children into a model of existence which is selfish in nature - and as soon as we correct this by proper pan-education - novel type ADDer will flourish.

We're rubbish at beating other people because we derive no reward from competition.

mildadhd
08-23-16, 10:39 PM
So - what's missing ?

[1] Time to develop longer - solved as above
[2] Inappropriate - parent-child (parents no longer stress out the slower achieving non-competitive daydreamer child) and child-child and child-generic adult relationships - solved as above
[3] Absence in reward in life - solved as above
[4] Hypersensitiviey - solved as above


etc

Highly Hypersensitive Salubrious!

[5] more time for supervised free-play.

G