View Full Version : Feelings' regulate thoughts', and thoughts' regulate feelings'.


mildadhd
09-02-16, 11:48 PM
Emotional-feelings' can regulate thoughts' and thoughts' can regulate emotional-feelings'.

The relationship between affective-regulation and cognitive-regulation.

This thread is meant to discuss and learn, how/when can emotional-feelings' regulate thoughts' and how/when can thoughts' regulate emotional-feelings'?

G

SB_UK
09-03-16, 02:34 AM
pre-wisdom
feelings regulate thoughts
explanation - the addict is compelled to fulfill their addiction regardless of whether they know it's bad for them

wisdom
thoughts regulate feelings (free will)
The wise individual loses addictive propensity (reward system) and gains moral reward system insisting on following the path of rational morality.

-*-

So - pre-wisdom and post-wisdom - it's not really fair to say that thoughts regulate feelings or feelings regulate thought - but there's a transition in reward system which determines the hold of unthinking (immoral/irrational) feelings over thinking (moral rational) feelings.

So - the 'magic' is in what motivates the person.

Feelings can be said to regulate the individual in both cases, thoughts to regulate the individual in both cases - it's whether the thoughts/feelings ally to the dark side (reward which is addictive and which kills you/others) or (broadly speaking) - 'creating something worthwhile'.

Free will runs alongside freely giving.
Selfish addictive propensity with 'taking'.

SB_UK
09-03-16, 02:45 AM
Example

Man has idea to help little old lady across road.
Man has thought which results in Feeling (happy).

Another Man has idea to help little old lady across road.
Man has thought which results in Feeling (happy).

They have the same thought and the same feeling.

But it turns out that Man 1 has had a bet that he can force random ladies across the road and that he'll win money (and feel happy) if he can just force her across.

Whereas Man 2 can see that little old lady needs to cross road.

-*-

Forget thoughts/feelings - it's essential to look at intention/motivation/reward system.

-*-

Even worse though - in the absence of wisdom - the individual lacks the mind to be sure whether or not the little old lady actually wants to cross the road - consider the wise mind to be a calibrated mind.

And so

Man 3 and Man 4 might be having virtually identical thoughts/feelings - but in the absence of mind (wisdom) - Man 3 cannot absolutely trust (though he will) that he's right in that the little old lady needs his help.

-*-

So - we can even discount reward system - as this is a consequence of completion in mind (wisdom).

-*-

Thoughts control Feelings or vv

- answer determined by one's progress towards wisdom.

At stage wisdom - everything rationalizes - particularly 'free will' where we're compelled to operate in line with rational morality.

Note that the systematizing mind has a way of confusing rational morality - and will throw up all manner of nonsense to allow it (usually striving to become more powerful at work, in a social grouping, at some endeavour etc) to continue.

This is why the psychopathic workplaces (see google - originally posted by ADDF/Abi) are considered relatively intellectually highly.

Yes - some level (actually arguably) of 'brain' required - but out of kilter with rational morality - hides itself through use of esoteric language which shrouds the nonsense (visible to all) if natural language were used.

-*-

eg Questions to ask ?
Is it good for you to have a multinational supermarket which does not sell fresh produce move in and destroy your local greengrocer ?
Is fracking which pollutes the water you drink from a good idea ?
Are you any better off for 'professional' sportsmen ?

There's a body of knowledge underlying business, engineering and physiology (the above three - respectively) - but none of these three bodies of knowledge serve mankind.

Ahh! but -
We've cheaper food.
We've cheaper energy.
We've somebody to watch on telly at night.

Yes but.
1. It's not actually food (so science is proving)
2. You need to stop wasting energy not keep on selling/using (so economics insists) it.
3. Why not go hop, skip and jump for yourself and see if you can set a new personal best ?

SB_UK
09-03-16, 02:57 AM
As simply stated as possible.

You need to have a

rational
moral

idea.

And you need to do whatever it tells you to do.

And you need to feel happy.

What's required ?
A 'thing' in your head which knows what is rational and what is moral.

What is this thing called ?
A mind which has attained wisdom.

And how does a mind attain wisdm ?
By combined education into rationality and morality - with the strongest level of warning attached to allowing rationality and morality to diverge - what happens is that morality is left behind

- and rationality takes itself into hideously convoluted systems which're there to make people famous, rich and 'successful' ie nothing to do with the collective good.

From which place we see where we've been going wrong and why Stingy Police sings - 'never saw no miracle of science which didn't turn from a blessing into a curse'.

SB_UK
09-03-16, 03:04 AM
Conclusion.

Seek a life in which your agenda helps all other people to see through their agenda - and you'll be OK.
Keep your eyes open for people who raise a question mark over your chosen 'profession' - welcome not close one's eyes to criticism.

As the transition to wisdom occurs - we'll find that we make fewer mis-steps in our choices.

Upon the transition to wisdom - you're free from addictive propensity and are (more generally) free.

-*-

Life is an exercise in acquiring rational morality.
The mind is an evolutionary property for attaining rational morality.

Once rational morality attained - the force to complete evolutionary expectations (ie to achieve enforced rational morality) is over - we do not need to accomplish anything further - are free from the internal mechanism in place (addictive propensity or compulsion) which will not let us 'live a little' until we've accomplished something (the acquisition of wisdom).

Sadly - 'living a little' (bliss through plain existence post-wisdom) uses the same basic neural reward pathways as addiction - and so we need to be very aware that the path to self-annhilation (the quest for money,power,prestige,beating people) will be alluring (more easier to access) - than the reward from wisdom.
Especially in the absence of a society which encourages wisdom - and which instead teaches people to look up to the nonsense addicts of selfish pursuits.

-*-

So that's all there is to it.

A colossal mistake on the part of society which has failed to see that the mind is a tool for acquiring Rational Morality not just some scheme which can be said to be rational - and which is simply a barely locally logically consistent unwieldy hunk of data stitched together into an ageing behemoth which'll fall over if ever released from its ivory towers.

Bluechoo
09-03-16, 12:30 PM
I suppose it would depend on the context or setting. In some situations, it might be better for me to turn my head off and follow my heart, such as when writing music, making love, enjoying nature, getting a "feel for it". Other situations would require me to put my head in first, such as managing a classroom full of 7th graders, going to court, an interview, things like that.

It is not simply one way all the time, for all cases. The black-and-white picture painted above seems a tad out of line with reality. Reductionist theories have always seemed too heavily skeptical to me--offering little in the way of a solution to all the problems they claim to turn up.

aeon
09-03-16, 09:14 PM
Heart/head is a false dichotomy.

In making love, my sense is you have to bring it all...sensation, emotion, cognition, intuition...

Otherwise it’s just *******.

I think the best state is when the head and the heart are aligned and work in concert to your well-being.

Make them oppositional, or too sequestered, at your own peril.


Cheers,
Ian

mildadhd
09-04-16, 11:18 AM
pre-wisdom
feelings regulate thoughts
explanation - the addict is compelled to fulfill their addiction regardless of whether they know it's bad for them

wisdom
thoughts regulate feelings (free will)
The wise individual loses addictive propensity (reward system) and gains moral reward system insisting on following the path of rational morality.

-*-

So - pre-wisdom and post-wisdom - it's not really fair to say that thoughts regulate feelings or feelings regulate thought - but there's a transition in reward system which determines the hold of unthinking (immoral/irrational) feelings over thinking (moral rational) feelings.

So - the 'magic' is in what motivates the person.

Feelings can be said to regulate the individual in both cases, thoughts to regulate the individual in both cases - it's whether the thoughts/feelings ally to the dark side (reward which is addictive and which kills you/others) or (broadly speaking) - 'creating something worthwhile'.

Free will runs alongside freely giving.
Selfish addictive propensity with 'taking'.


Ground-up feelingthought precedes top-down thoughtfeeling, before the age of 4.

Feelingthoughts are primarily genetic. (homologous)

Thoughtfeelings are secondarily epigenetic. (based on individual experiences)

Motivation is primarily a feeling before experiencing a thought.

G

mildadhd
09-04-16, 12:05 PM
Ground-up feelingthought precedes top-down thoughtfeeling, before the age of 4.

Feelingthoughts are primarily genetic. (homologous)

Thoughtfeelings are secondarily epigenetic. (based on individual experiences)

Motivation is primarily a feeling before experiencing a thought.

G

Edit.

Ground-up feelingthought precedes top-down thoughtfeeling, before birth to about the age of 4.

Feelingthoughts are primarily genetic. (homologous)

Thoughtfeelings are secondarily epigenetic. (based on individual experiences)

Motivation is primarily a feeling before experiencing a thought.

G

SB_UK
09-04-16, 02:47 PM
Edit.

Ground-up feelingthought precedes top-down thoughtfeeling, before birth to about the age of 4.

Feelingthoughts are primarily genetic. (homologous)

Thoughtfeelings are secondarily epigenetic. (based on individual experiences)

Motivation is primarily a feeling before experiencing a thought.

G

Motivation is an impicit thought expressed (explanation - always a logic) as a feeling potentially preceding id as an explicit thought (explanation - understanding why we did something).

However motivation can occur in the absence of mind hence only potentially preceding ... ... and even in the presence - one might not reach explicit understanding of implicit logic

ie why'd I do that ?

Addict in denial compulsively reaching for addictive substance is sure that it's to be sociable and not because he's a problem.

SB_UK
09-04-16, 02:55 PM
Motivation must be logical (have an associated logic).

From Age 4 when the mind seizes ahold.

It is not logical to strive towards being anything other than moral.

-*-

Point being discount Thoughts, Feelings

- and look at implicit logic.

mildadhd
09-04-16, 07:29 PM
Motivation is an impicit thought expressed (explanation - always a logic) as a feeling potentially preceding id as an explicit thought (explanation - understanding why we did something).

However motivation can occur in the absence of mind hence only potentially preceding ... ... and even in the presence - one might not reach explicit understanding of implicit logic

ie why'd I do that ?

Addict in denial compulsively reaching for addictive substance is sure that it's to be sociable and not because he's a problem.

Addict in pain.

I am not sure what implicit logic is?

Do you mean like rats are inherently afraid of the smell of cats, and open spaces?

Humans, seeking and grieving the warmth remembered, just after being born?

We do have emotionally implicit memories', before the ability for cognitively explicit memories develops/matures about the age of 4.

If I understand correctly, consistent implicit memories occurring before the ability to explicitly remember, get built into our nervous systems.'

Example, infants/toddlers who experience consistent safe and secure positive feelings influence the development of dopamine neurones originating in the VTA.

G

mildadhd
09-04-16, 07:52 PM
I wonder how much being born with a emotionally hypersensitive temperament to distresses, influences the number of dopamine neurones, originating in the VTA?


G

mildadhd
09-04-16, 08:15 PM
Is compassion both emotional/moral?

G

SB_UK
09-05-16, 02:25 AM
Addict in pain.

I am not sure what implicit logic is?

Do you mean like rats are inherently afraid of the smell of cats, and open spaces?

Humans, seeking and grieving the warmth remembered, just after being born?

We do have emotionally implicit memories', before the ability for cognitively explicit memories develops/matures about the age of 4.

If I understand correctly, consistent implicit memories occurring before the ability to explicitly remember, get built into our nervous systems.'

Example, infants/toddlers who experience consistent safe and secure positive feelings influence the development of dopamine neurones originating in the VTA.

G


Implicit logic - a logical basis to.

An animal feels thirsty then Drink without explicitly thinking to itself that it's thirsty.

This implicit logic would give motivation (to drink), reward (from drinking), emotion (happy) from drinking and if the animal was man - the ability to form an explicit thought from the implicitly logical message to drink - of ability to tell people he's about to drink.

-*-

So implicit logic or some reason determines behaviour.

I's interesting that logic / reason are often co-opted into mind - there's logic/reason in the behaviour of animals without a mind.

SB_UK
09-05-16, 02:31 AM
Compassion - if the underlying logical instruction set is 'collaboration' (eg egalitarian social species (the life human beings should lead)) - then implicit logic, reward, emotion and explicit logic are allied - follow on in that order and are all boxes which may be ticked as long as we get with the program and collaborate.

Otherwise we follow the underlying logical instruction set of 'competition' (eg individual vs world (the life humans lead currently)) which ends up in the battler hardened male being eaten by another battle hardened male (or in our current case - a local supplier making a criminal profit for a multinational with criminal attitude to his staff (or corrupt publically run organization/union eaten by asset stripping private concern)) in waiting as soon as his back is turned.

Dog eat dog won't work to man with mind - as it appears that human intelligence appears to ally with fasting, asceticism - or having the dish without any food on top - for appearances you know ?

Life's better without the association to anything.
Life's then better without the ownership of anything.

To be contrasted with the monsters of this current world (most people to be fair).

Who pursue it all.
And then sit in a house so stuffed with broken plastic that they can't even get in, buy a plastic tent and camp outside.

-*-

Why do human beings not appear to want (see visceral rage at the idea of social behaviour in America) to act socially ?
There's an illusion that behaving socially will generate clones.

Where it's a simple misunderstanding of the great:
genome - material world - quantity
connectome/memome - informational world - quality
divide.

We're meant to be purely egalitarian at the material world level so we've a foundation to achieve incredible diversity at the connectomic level (species quality diversity ie diversity in quality pattern recognition from sensory channels).

We're currently stuck in a fight between 2 very significant (sequential) models of human evolution - the genome (our physical body) and the connectome (our life of enjoying quality) ... ... and it's not until we give up attempting to individually have it (the material world) ALL ... ... that we'll collectively be able to pass past this dark part of human history (growing up) - and chill a little.

It's happening as we speak.

-*-

--- Summarising ---
Being the best that you can be (it's a structure within you brain/mind ie Internal) requires that you share what's external.
The promised land is, and has always been internal and was never meant to have been considered external.
The key to the promised land is the personal acquisition of morality which opens the doors to perception, which allows one's eye to open to the majesty of the Garden in which you're a part.

In other words - the Garden doesn't change - it doesn't change at all.
You do.

-*-Feelings' regulate thoughts', and thoughts' regulate feelings'.So state of mind (illogical (defined as inconsistent with collective betterment) set) defines feelings/thoughts illogically.
So state of mind (logical (defined as globally consistent with collective betterment) set) defines feelings/thoughts logically.

SB_UK
09-05-16, 02:52 AM
The basic point is simply.

Know morality Become morality
on an individual thereafter species level
... ... and EVERYTHING (the types of thoughts and associated feelings) thereafter align.

If we don't know morality and generate an illogical (to morality) mind - then the thoughts won't make sense and the 'happy' feelings allying as they do with implicit and explicit thoughts will be off as well.

Or in simple language people'll be 'happy' when they're not meant to be happy.

Oh joy - I've just completed a multi-zillion arms contract for that rich country in the middle bit of planet Earth to annhilate its poor country neighbour.

Time to celebrate ???? or to change one's mind.

SB_UK
09-05-16, 06:34 AM
--- Summarising ---
Being the best that you can be (it's a structure within you brain/mind ie Internal) requires that you share what's External.
The promised land is, and has always been internal and was never meant to have been considered external.
The key to the promised land is the personal acquisition of morality which opens the doors to perception, which allows one's eye to open to the majesty of the Garden within which we are a part.

In other words - the Garden doesn't change - it doesn't change at all.
You do.

-*-

Simpler wording

--- Summarising ---
Being the best that you can be (which is represented by a structure within you brain/mind ie Internal) requires that you share what's external.
The promised land is, and has always been accessed internally and was never meant to have been considered an external destination.
The key to the promised land is the personal acquisition of morality which opens the doors to perception, which allows our eyes to open to the majesty of the Garden in which you're a part.

In other words - the Garden doesn't change - it doesn't change at all.
You do.

-*-

mildadhd
09-05-16, 07:34 AM
I have some feeling of happiness in the spring, and as dayslight gets longer.

I am presently beginning to miss some of that happiness, as the dayslight gets shorter.

Between implicitexplicit affective and explicitimplicit cognitive is the limbic system. (Learning and memories)

So our limbic systems' have..

-Bottom up preverbal affective implicitexplicit memories, before birth and the age of 4*

-topdown verbal cognitive explicitimplicit memories, after the age of 4*

Age 4 is a guideline. (Give or take a couple of years*)


G

mildadhd
09-05-16, 07:57 AM
Compare context of "control" in the relationship between of our affective feelings and cognitive thoughts, as we age.

..before birth.

..after birth.

..at age 1.

..at age 4.

..at age 8.

..at age 12.

..at age 16.

..at age 20.

..at age 24.

..at age 48.

..at age 96.

..at age 192...etc,

G

mildadhd
09-05-16, 08:30 AM
Logical only, is illogical.

It is funny to think how big playfull feelingthoughts' are compared to thoughtfeelings', before birth and the age of 4.

And vice versa how big thoughtsfeelings' are compared to playfull feelingthoughts', after the age of 4 until retirement.

Feelingthoughts are present before our thoughtfeelings.

Affective behavior.
Compare bottom up implicit affective behavior with top down explicit cognitive behavior before birth an the age of 4.
Cognitive behavior.

Deficits of self-regulation have developmental roots in experiences of consistent negative affective behavior.

Hypersensitive temperament for life?

G

mildadhd
09-05-16, 08:42 AM
The instinct to play is prelogical. (Aka, emotional-affective, preverbal imagination?)

G

mildadhd
09-05-16, 08:58 AM
Sensory feelings travel into the midbrain for primary affective brain processing, then to secondary level upper limbic (learning and memories) and tertiary neocortical (awareness, mindfulness, considerness) levels of brain processing.


G

SB_UK
09-05-16, 10:56 AM
The instinct to play is prelogical. (Aka, emotional-affective, preverbal imagination?)

G


If there's a basis - it must be logical.

Or encoded by some body of logic.

Nature confers rules (logic) which we're required to adhere to.

The logic culminates in the emergence of man, with the capacity to translate the implicit logic of nature into explicit logic and put it on the internet so everyone can see that we really do make sense.

After which we'll start to make sense.

SB_UK
09-05-16, 11:03 AM
An instinct is logical.

If each and every organism performs a certain behaviour - it must be encoded by some body of logic - otherwise the instinct would be optional, and not an instinct.

SB_UK
09-05-16, 11:05 AM
I have some feeling of happiness in the spring, and as dayslight gets longer.

I am presently beginning to miss some of that happiness, as the dayslight gets shorter.

Between implicitexplicit affective and explicitimplicit cognitive is the limbic system. (Learning and memories)

So our limbic systems' have..

-Bottom up preverbal affective implicitexplicit memories, before birth and the age of 4*

-topdown verbal cognitive explicitimplicit memories, after the age of 4*

Age 4 is a guideline. (Give or take a couple of years*)


G

Yes - despise the lack of light, gloom and rain.
Last idea was that we obtain more information through the optical channel when it's sunny, bright, coloured and light outside - and that reduced information relay reduces our level of stimulation - slows us down. Connection to hibernation.

So 'speeding up' as the days increase in length and 'slowing down' when they decrease - all down - this pattern of stimulation to information relay via the optical channel.

Personally I find it particularly unpleasant to live in gloom.

Hoping to be able to move out of the gloom as soon as psychiatric disorders can be confined to the 'all of our own making' dustbin of history.

SB_UK
09-05-16, 11:20 AM
Logical only, is illogical.

It is funny to think how big playfull feelingthoughts' are compared to thoughtfeelings', before birth and the age of 4.

And vice versa how big thoughtsfeelings' are compared to playfull feelingthoughts', after the age of 4 until retirement.

Feelingthoughts are present before our thoughtfeelings.

Affective behavior.
Compare bottom up implicit affective behavior with top down explicit cognitive behavior before birth an the age of 4.
Cognitive behavior.

Deficits of self-regulation have developmental roots in experiences of consistent negative affective behavior.

Hypersensitive temperament for life?

G

A computer can be only logical if we define a logical operation that it must be generated solely from.

Logical to man would generally be a lazy way of saying moral - avoiding the proper term moral because it carries a particularly unpleasant heap of excess baggage upon its shoulders.

Moral has grown to mean immoral - which makes it a very difficult word to use.

Logical is closer in feel to moral when used in conversation but isn't the right term.

Imprisoned by lack of precision in words.

SB_UK
09-05-16, 11:26 AM
Deficits of self-regulation have developmental roots in experiences of consistent negative affective behavior.



Yes addiction grows from life-altering to life-destroying.

One way trip.

Very important to identify addictive pursuits and avoid.

All neatly taken care of if the individual gains a rational moral mind.

Easy to tell a rational moral mind - because it does not become defensive when confronted by a better argument - actually wants a better argument which it can use to strive closer to a completely moral model of behaviour.

Actually it doesn't take much - most of it is leaving stuff out rather than placing stuff in.

Over-complication in today's data (noise) deluge.

Life (currently) is a frightening Gish Gallop where no sooner has one lot of nonsense been dispelled - than another steaming pile of silly ideas (phrased in words you've literally never heard before) comes along - and you're forced into days of research to work out what on earth they'e going on about.

-*-

Morality is knowing how (requires evidence !!) to live out life hopefully helping ... ... but at the very least not hurting any thing.

mildadhd
09-07-16, 10:25 PM
I feel and think if we focus our thoughtfeelings', logic, wisdom, morality on considering development of our feelingthoughts' before birth and the age of 3, we would understand the physiology of addiction better.

Example.

We could help people who suffer from addictions, instead of putting them in jail.

But we need to include feelingthoughts' to understand how cognitive logic (thoughtfeelings) work together.

We must consider both affective feelings' and cognitive thoughts' to logically understand the maturation of BrainMind/MindBrain during the different ages/stages of development.

G