View Full Version : Two kids, same class, opposing IEP's


Caco3girl
09-19-16, 10:00 AM
Technically my son only has a 504, but I'm working on getting him an IEP. As of right now his 504 says he is ADHD and he needs to be redirected often and he gets extended test time in a small group environment.

In his math class there is a student that MUST have an IEP. This student puts his feet on the back of his chair and crouches down and leans over to write on the desk...he looks like a monkey perching on a tree branch and the teacher never says anything so it must be an IEP.

How is that fair to my kid? I think even an average student would have a glitch if the kid next to them was perched on the back of a chair...my kid has no shot concentrating in that class. At first when my son told me about this I thought he was exaggerating, he took pictures of the kid the next day and showed me and sure enough...money on a branch.

I get that IEP's are needed....but how is that okay for a normal classroom?

Lunacie
09-19-16, 10:42 AM
I remember when teachers would force lefties to use their right hand. I dunno why.

Maybe it was distracting to the other students?

Sometimes the teacher can cause more of a distraction by trying to stop an odd looking behavior.

My granddaughter has autism and an IEP. But until she was 10 her teachers expected her to be just like the other kids, to fit in, to not be different.

But she is different.

Four years ago she was finally moved to a different school with a wonderful teacher and she has learned five times as much and come five times as far in that environment.

She's a freshman now, and for the last two years has been able to take part in some of the inclusive classes ... without a para!

I can't help but think she'd have been able to do that many years ago if she'd have had a good teacher.

You may not think this post has anything to do with your post. But this is what came to my mind after reading your post.

I hope your son has a great teacher too, and that he gets so used to the kid next to his sitting on his feet and leaning over to write that he doesn't even notice it. Even better, I hope they become great friends.

Caco3girl
09-19-16, 10:58 AM
I remember when teachers would force lefties to use their right hand. I dunno why.

Maybe it was distracting to the other students?

Sometimes the teacher can cause more of a distraction by trying to stop an odd looking behavior.

My granddaughter has autism and an IEP. But until she was 10 her teachers expected her to be just like the other kids, to fit in, to not be different.

But she is different.

Four years ago she was finally moved to a different school with a wonderful teacher and she has learned five times as much and come five times as far in that environment.

She's a freshman now, and for the last two years has been able to take part in some of the inclusive classes ... without a para!

I can't help but think she'd have been able to do that many years ago if she'd have had a good teacher.

You may not think this post has anything to do with your post. But this is what came to my mind after reading your post.

I hope your son has a great teacher too, and that he gets so used to the kid next to his sitting on his feet and leaning over to write that he doesn't even notice it. Even better, I hope they become great friends.

My son gets distracted by thin air....having a kid up on a chair like a monkey will forever distract him. It doesn't mean the kid is a bad person but what makes his issue more pressing than my sons issue?

Lunacie
09-19-16, 11:23 AM
My son gets distracted by thin air....having a kid up on a chair like a monkey will forever distract him. It doesn't mean the kid is a bad person but what makes his issue more pressing than my sons issue?

Did you ask the teacher if your son's desk could be moved so the other kid isn't in his line of vision?

One of my granddaughter's not-so-horrible teachers moved her desk to one side of the room and put up screens so she only had to deal with noise distractions and not visual distractions. Once she got used to the noises, they removed the screens and she got used to visual stuff too.

Caco3girl
09-19-16, 11:43 AM
Did you ask the teacher if your son's desk could be moved so the other kid isn't in his line of vision?

One of my granddaughter's not-so-horrible teachers moved her desk to one side of the room and put up screens so she only had to deal with noise distractions and not visual distractions. Once she got used to the noises, they removed the screens and she got used to visual stuff too.

I have a meeting set up with the teacher next Wednesday. There are other issues going on in that class, but I still don't see how sitting on the back of your chair like a monkey is considered an acceptable accommodation since it would be distracting to 100% of the students, regardless of IEP's or 504's.

Lunacie
09-19-16, 12:50 PM
It may come down to the lesser of two distractions. The other student might cause a much bigger distraction if he weren't allowed to sit this way.

If she's had other complaints, she might consider putting up screens around the other student's desk while he is perching and writing, and then move them away.

If your son is the only one who is too distracted by the other student, she could put screens around his desk while he needs to concentrate. There are small folding screens that fit around just the desk top.


I saw a photo recently of a classroom with all kinds of different seating. I'll see if I can find it again.

I'm not finding that photo, but this is an awesome link: http://www.edutopia.org/practice/flexible-classrooms-providing-learning-environment-kids-need

namazu
09-19-16, 01:53 PM
I get that IEP's are needed....but how is that okay for a normal classroom?

a) I'm not sure your assumption that the other kid "must have an IEP" is a good assumption. I'm not sure your assumption that "it would be distracting to 100% of other students" is a good assumption either, beyond maybe the first day or 2.

b) If the other kid is not making excess noise, not kicking any other kids' chairs, staying within the space of his own seat/desk, and otherwise participating in class, there are teachers who might not object, with or without an IEP. The point of the class is to learn math, not to practice sitting with one's feet squarely on the floor.

c) I agree with Lunacie -- see if your son can be seated somewhere in front of this kid, so he's out of your son's line of sight. If your son's turning around to look at this other kid, who's not making noise nor kicking your son's chair, then it's not that the other kid is actually creating a disruption in class, it's that the idea of this other kid sitting strangely is distracting your son (which could apply to a kid with a bright shirt, or tall hair, or an unusual pencil, or a prosthetic limb, or...). And that's not the other kid's problem, nor the teacher's. Given that there's a kid who hangs on his chair like a monkey on a branch, you and your son (and the teacher) need to work out a place for your son to sit where this won't be a distraction, rather than focusing on the other kid. Or maybe your son could try sitting that way, too...

sarahsweets
09-20-16, 04:54 AM
Technically my son only has a 504, but I'm working on getting him an IEP. As of right now his 504 says he is ADHD and he needs to be redirected often and he gets extended test time in a small group environment.
Until you have the IEP, you have the right to meet with the guidance counselor that monitors him and go over/request different accomodations. Especially if what he has now isnt helping. What are you doing to work on him getting an IEP?

In his math class there is a student that MUST have an IEP. This student puts his feet on the back of his chair and crouches down and leans over to write on the desk...he looks like a monkey perching on a tree branch and the teacher never says anything so it must be an IEP.

I dont know if this kid has an IEP but it does seem possible. If its distracting for your son visually, audible, or because he is getting bumped and jostled, I would call the teacher ASAP and ask where he can be seated away from this kid. I would worry less about whether this kid as an IEP or not, and more about doing what you can right now for your son.

How is that fair to my kid? I think even an average student would have a glitch if the kid next to them was perched on the back of a chair...my kid has no shot concentrating in that class. At first when my son told me about this I thought he was exaggerating, he took pictures of the kid the next day and showed me and sure enough...money on a branch.
Did you ask him if other kids had a hard time with this kid's desk habits?
When your son does get his IEP, he will also have things that he gets to have or do that other kids dont, will you then say that he deserves more help then the other kids?


I get that IEP's are needed....but how is that okay for a normal classroom?
What do you mean by normal? Do you mean in a classroom not designated as Special Ed?
My son was in special ed and moved to regular ed by the time he was in 4th grade. He was allowed a weighted vest, fidgit items, special pens, gum, frequent breaks, a scribe and the use of an in class word processor to deal with his hand writing. These things made him so much more successful that he was able to manage the adhd (with meds) much better so that the other kids were not annoyed and barely noticed his accomodations after a few weeks.
It might seem fair, but who knows if they kid has an IEP. Have you called the teacher to find out if your son is allowed to sit like this (if thats what you are looking for)?
Maybe she would make accomodations for your son while you are waiting for the IEP?

Caco3girl
09-20-16, 07:57 AM
The school is giving me a major push back about getting my son an IEP, so I took him to a psychiatrist this past weekend and she is on board that he needs an IEP. She wants to see him again in a month to go over exactly what he/I want in the IEP. She briefly got to look at the 25 page report the school did and couldn't understand why he didn't already have an IEP. When he hears a passage he lands in the 54% for being able to answer the questions, when he reads the passage he lands in the 9% for being able to answer questions. I asked the school to have passages read to him and they said he didn't have an IEP and didn't qualify for that with his 504.

sarahsweets
09-20-16, 08:58 AM
The school is giving me a major push back about getting my son an IEP, so I took him to a psychiatrist this past weekend and she is on board that he needs an IEP. She wants to see him again in a month to go over exactly what he/I want in the IEP. She briefly got to look at the 25 page report the school did and couldn't understand why he didn't already have an IEP. When he hears a passage he lands in the 54% for being able to answer the questions, when he reads the passage he lands in the 9% for being able to answer questions. I asked the school to have passages read to him and they said he didn't have an IEP and didn't qualify for that with his 504.

Ok, first google wrights law .com. (cant link it from here). Then look at your states special education laws. Here in NJ if a parent thinks that a child needs to be evaluated for services and an IEP or if the school denies services or an IEP you have the right to appeal or formally request a hearing or just request a meeting. You must do everything in writing and I recommend sending everything returned receipt so you know someone got it and signed for it. Here when I had to go to bat for my daughter I wrote a letter to the child study team, and sent the same letter to the principal, guidance counselor, and teacher. I sent whatever documentation I had and included a copy of PRISE (parental rights in special education) with highlighter on all the parts that applied to me and my child. I cant remember exactly but they had a certain amount of days to respond-a certain amount to do the evaul and a certain amount to prepare the report and have a meeting with me.

Schools want less special education students/students with disabilities-not more. It costs them more money to educate these students so forcing some of the students that they deem-ok-through the system is what they would rather do. its sad that its this way but all public schools have a bottom line.

TygerSan
09-20-16, 08:58 AM
As someone who gets distracted by my own breathing, I fully understand your concern over your son being distracted by this other child. I honestly don't know how well I would have done, for example, if I had been in a class with someone with Tourette's, for example. I am keenly, keenly aware of others' tics. I don't generally tic, but the minute I see someone else tic (and it can be so subtle that nobody else even is aware of the issue), my attention is drawn to the tic and I feel the urge to tic alongside. Needless to say, that makes focusing difficult. I feel horrible when it happens, because I know the other person has no control over their actions either.

That said, as a former educator and special education student, there are aspects of this story that concern me in terms of your approach to the school and the other student.

In his math class there is a student that MUST have an IEP. This student puts his feet on the back of his chair and crouches down and leans over to write on the desk...he looks like a monkey perching on a tree branch and the teacher never says anything so it must be an IEP.

What I'm getting out of this statement is that your son is being singled out for behavior that is related to his disability, whereas this child seems to be able to get away with sitting in an abnormal manner. I have to admit that it made me rather uncomfortable that your child took a picture of this child sitting in such a manner with his phone. All I can think of is what if that had been my child? What if that had been me? I would have been mortified if someone had taken a picture of me doing "something weird", especially without my permission, regardless of how few people actually saw the picture.

Regardless, your frustration over the teacher's treatment of your son and the lack of IEP comes through loud and clear. I hope that your son gets the services he's entitled to so that he can be successful in class and beyond.

Caco3girl
09-20-16, 11:56 AM
Ok, first google wrights law .com. (cant link it from here). Then look at your states special education laws. Here in NJ if a parent thinks that a child needs to be evaluated for services and an IEP or if the school denies services or an IEP you have the right to appeal or formally request a hearing or just request a meeting. You must do everything in writing and I recommend sending everything returned receipt so you know someone got it and signed for it. Here when I had to go to bat for my daughter I wrote a letter to the child study team, and sent the same letter to the principal, guidance counselor, and teacher. I sent whatever documentation I had and included a copy of PRISE (parental rights in special education) with highlighter on all the parts that applied to me and my child. I cant remember exactly but they had a certain amount of days to respond-a certain amount to do the evaul and a certain amount to prepare the report and have a meeting with me.

Schools want less special education students/students with disabilities-not more. It costs them more money to educate these students so forcing some of the students that they deem-ok-through the system is what they would rather do. its sad that its this way but all public schools have a bottom line.
They did the testing, apparently in order to be special Ed you have to be at 15% or lower and my kid came in at a 19%.

Caco3girl
09-20-16, 12:00 PM
As someone who gets distracted by my own breathing, I fully understand your concern over your son being distracted by this other child. I honestly don't know how well I would have done, for example, if I had been in a class with someone with Tourette's, for example. I am keenly, keenly aware of others' tics. I don't generally tic, but the minute I see someone else tic (and it can be so subtle that nobody else even is aware of the issue), my attention is drawn to the tic and I feel the urge to tic alongside. Needless to say, that makes focusing difficult. I feel horrible when it happens, because I know the other person has no control over their actions either.

That said, as a former educator and special education student, there are aspects of this story that concern me in terms of your approach to the school and the other student.



What I'm getting out of this statement is that your son is being singled out for behavior that is related to his disability, whereas this child seems to be able to get away with sitting in an abnormal manner. I have to admit that it made me rather uncomfortable that your child took a picture of this child sitting in such a manner with his phone. All I can think of is what if that had been my child? What if that had been me? I would have been mortified if someone had taken a picture of me doing "something weird", especially without my permission, regardless of how few people actually saw the picture.

Regardless, your frustration over the teacher's treatment of your son and the lack of IEP comes through loud and clear. I hope that your son gets the services he's entitled to so that he can be successful in class and beyond.

I actually did say something similar to my son when he said he had a picture of the other kid. I likened it to staring at someone with a malformation on their face and boiled it down to "it's not cool to stare at something different". He said and I am actually quoting "If you look at the picture the kid is looking straight at me, I asked him if I could take a picture because my mom didn't believe me and he laughed and said sure, no problem"

The kid was smiling and looking straight at the camera, actually it was more of a smirk.

TygerSan
09-20-16, 12:06 PM
I actually did say something similar to my son when he said he had a picture of the other kid. I likened it to staring at someone with a malformation on their face and boiled it down to "it's not cool to stare at something different". He said and I am actually quoting "If you look at the picture the kid is looking straight at me, I asked him if I could take a picture because my mom didn't believe me and he laughed and said sure, no problem"

In that case, I rescind my concern. :)

Also. . . sounds like the teacher is a bit overwhelmed. I take it this is a regular classroom?

sarahsweets
09-20-16, 01:57 PM
They did the testing, apparently in order to be special Ed you have to be at 15% or lower and my kid came in at a 19%.

15% or 19% of what? As far as I know, there were no percentages utilized for my kids. My son was in special ed, then regular ed with support. He is 20 now. My youngest daughter was in special ed until third grade, regular with support until half way through 7th grade and then she sort of "grew" out of any need for those accomodations. They both had IEP's. The IEP was especially helpful with my son getting accomodations in college. My middle daughter has very mild impairments and has a 504.
Their diagnosis' include: ADHD, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, sensory issues, perception issues, speech issues and some other stuff Im forgetting. They received PT, OT, speech as well.

Caco3girl
09-20-16, 02:21 PM
In that case, I rescind my concern. :)

Also. . . sounds like the teacher is a bit overwhelmed. I take it this is a regular classroom?

There are three types of math in 9th grade, Beginners Algebra, Algebra 1, and Honors Math. This is the Algebra 1 course. The teacher is new to the school, very young, and according to my son everyone is failing "even the girl who got straight A's last year", and the teacher is emailing out extra credit like it's candy...like I said I have a meeting set up for Next Wednesday.

Caco3girl
09-20-16, 02:41 PM
15% or 19% of what? As far as I know, there were no percentages utilized for my kids. My son was in special ed, then regular ed with support. He is 20 now. My youngest daughter was in special ed until third grade, regular with support until half way through 7th grade and then she sort of "grew" out of any need for those accomodations. They both had IEP's. The IEP was especially helpful with my son getting accomodations in college. My middle daughter has very mild impairments and has a 504.
Their diagnosis' include: ADHD, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, sensory issues, perception issues, speech issues and some other stuff Im forgetting. They received PT, OT, speech as well.

Since my concern was Reading he would have had to grade in the 15% or less in the nation....according to the tests they gave him. They did give him multiple tests but the scoring was contradictory.

Average on their test is anyone that measures between 25-75%. My son frequently came in at 30-20% and they used phrases like "While his performance on this cluster is statistically significant, it is not poor enough to be considered a severe or statistically infrequent processing weakness".

He received 9th percentile for passage comprehension where he read silently and then had to provide the missing word, and 15th for Reading Comprehension cluster, but he scored in the 38th percentile for reading the story silently and then retell as much of the story as he can. So that section says "His performance on these tasks fell in the slightly below average range for his age. While his reading comprehension performance is slightly below expectations for his age and accessed cognitive abilities, this performance is not considered severely below expectations."

I think it would have been very difficult to "fail" these tests.

The recommendations to be added to his 504 plan were:
1. Get a program in effect to help him remember to do his homework
2. He may need more time to complete tests, tasks and projects
3. Provide a visually quiet, non-distracting place in the classroom where the student can go when he needs or wants to work in a more isolated environment
4. Explain the directions very clearly before having the student start the assignment
5. Have him highlight the directions in different colors to help with his tendency to forget to follow all the steps of the directions

sarahsweets
09-21-16, 02:54 AM
Since my concern was Reading he would have had to grade in the 15% or less in the nation....according to the tests they gave him. They did give him multiple tests but the scoring was contradictory.

Average on their test is anyone that measures between 25-75%. My son frequently came in at 30-20% and they used phrases like "While his performance on this cluster is statistically significant, it is not poor enough to be considered a severe or statistically infrequent processing weakness".

He received 9th percentile for passage comprehension where he read silently and then had to provide the missing word, and 15th for Reading Comprehension cluster, but he scored in the 38th percentile for reading the story silently and then retell as much of the story as he can. So that section says "His performance on these tasks fell in the slightly below average range for his age. While his reading comprehension performance is slightly below expectations for his age and accessed cognitive abilities, this performance is not considered severely below expectations."

I think it would have been very difficult to "fail" these tests.

The recommendations to be added to his 504 plan were:
1. Get a program in effect to help him remember to do his homework
2. He may need more time to complete tests, tasks and projects
3. Provide a visually quiet, non-distracting place in the classroom where the student can go when he needs or wants to work in a more isolated environment
4. Explain the directions very clearly before having the student start the assignment
5. Have him highlight the directions in different colors to help with his tendency to forget to follow all the steps of the directions

If I can find an old IEP with test results for my son, Ill share. I would check up on those percentages. I have never heard of this being used before. My son's IQ was off the charts in certain areas even as a young child. When he was in third grade and evaluated he was reading at an 8th grade level and the percentages that they demonstrated put him well beyond his peers. In 7th grade when he was re-tested (our district requires restesting every three years) he was reading and comprehending at a 12th grade level and again, surpassed all the kids his age. He has always had a disparity with his verbal IQ compared to others.Math was always his weakest because of his handwriting issues. He couldnt even read his own handwriting and would make mistakes. One of the accommodations was that he do all of his math work on 2 inch graph paper.

I really dont know if your state is that different from mine, or if you are being given false info. All of the times he was retested his percentages were off the charts and he excelled so much that in elementary school they would let him read during class because he would finish his work so quickly. At that point in 5th grade he was really into Tom Clancy. I wasnt even able to get into Tom Clancy!
He was given a scribe for any written response standardized testing. And a word processor for home (he is 20 so then there wasnt ipads or laptops in school).

Idk I really think you should dig a little. MANY kids with adhd have high IQ's and excel in areas beyond their peers. The issue with him is the gap between what he did well in and what he didnt do well in.

TygerSan
09-21-16, 07:14 AM
Sarah, what year did your son graduate? There has been a move from a discrepancy model of disability to a response to intervention model. This screws kids who are on or above Grade level but still have learning differences. I can almost guarantee that I would not have been able to get an IEP if I were going through school now. Even though I had one from literally kindergarten through 12th grade.

Caco3girl
09-21-16, 09:25 AM
It appears now that there has to be a SEVERE disability. Their interpretation of severe and mine are turning out to be very different. Even though ALL the test interpretation reports say "DO NOT AVERAGE THE SCORES" the fact that his verbal and nonverbal combine to be in the average range means my kid is "average" and does not qualify for Special Ed. The fact that there is a 15-20% difference in the two seems irrelevant.

I have found something called a "parent mentor for special education"....she is technically a school district employee but she has had 3 special ed kids in the system and is supposedly here to help parents navigate the system. I'll let you know how it goes.

sarahsweets
09-21-16, 09:30 AM
Sarah, what year did your son graduate? There has been a move from a discrepancy model of disability to a response to intervention model. This screws kids who are on or above Grade level but still have learning differences. I can almost guarantee that I would not have been able to get an IEP if I were going through school now. Even though I had one from literally kindergarten through 12th grade.

He is 20 now so I guess it was...2014? My youngest "tested out" of special education, and its accompanying resources. When we had the final IEP meeting I forced them to make a notation that if at anytime she has issues that interfere with her education beyond the normal scope of general ed problems, that we can re-visit the diagnosis's and possibly reinstate her iep. She is 13.

sarahsweets
09-21-16, 09:32 AM
It appears now that there has to be a SEVERE disability. Their interpretation of severe and mine are turning out to be very different. Even though ALL the test interpretation reports say "DO NOT AVERAGE THE SCORES" the fact that his verbal and nonverbal combine to be in the average range means my kid is "average" and does not qualify for Special Ed. The fact that there is a 15-20% difference in the two seems irrelevant.

I have found something called a "parent mentor for special education"....she is technically a school district employee but she has had 3 special ed kids in the system and is supposedly here to help parents navigate the system. I'll let you know how it goes.

I would also google "child advocate" in regards to parental rights in special education (PRISE). Once, I had to hire one myself and she was so familar with the laws, rights and the school district that when we walked into the meeting, it was like I walked in with a pitbull. Needless to say, everything we thought she needed, we got. She shut down all the red-tape BS and forced them to do what they were supposed to be doing.

Caco3girl
09-21-16, 01:16 PM
I would also google "child advocate" in regards to parental rights in special education (PRISE). Once, I had to hire one myself and she was so familar with the laws, rights and the school district that when we walked into the meeting, it was like I walked in with a pitbull. Needless to say, everything we thought she needed, we got. She shut down all the red-tape BS and forced them to do what they were supposed to be doing.

Frankly, I don't have a couple of thousand dollars to pay for the advocate. I'm going to try it this way for a little bit but I know something needs to change. The Parent Mentor seems to be asking some really good questions.

Does anyone know what is significant about a standardized test that displays verbal and non verbal test scores and those two values being really far apart? I keep asking the question of the school and while they think it's odd they said again that he averages out.

Here are his scores:
CogAT Scores
2014/15 = Verbal = 45%, non-verbal = 69%

2013/14 = Verbal = 33%, non-verbal = 91%
2013/12 = Verbal = 23%, non-verbal = 95%
2012/11 = Verbal = 29%, non-verbal = 48%


Seems weird right?

TygerSan
09-21-16, 02:08 PM
Oh good God, it does not "average out." The person who wrote my assessment report always made sure they noted that while my average score was, well, average, there was a lot of subtest scatter. That generally indicates either ADHD or some sort of learning disability/ processing problem.

Like I said, I don't know what type of argument needs to be made via those scores in order to get an IEP. It seems much more difficult to get one these days than it did when I was in school, but to make the argument that things "average out" is really ignorant. He has skills that he excels at, and he has skills that he struggles with. Most people don't have those large gaps between skill sets.

The one thing I'm curious about: are these IQ scores, or achievement scores (not familiar with this particular test)?

I know that with the WISC, you're not supposed to repeat testing every year, as that invalidates the test (too often produces practice effects).

The scary thing is, that for RTI model, if his achievement scores are in line with his IQ scores, he may not get any intervention, as there's not a gap between the two. That's frustrating to me as someone who excelled in school because I was able to get accommodations based on my uneven skill set.

Caco3girl
09-22-16, 09:02 AM
The internet says: "The Cognitive ability test measures students learned reasoning abilities in the three areas most linked to academic success in school: Verbal, Quantitative, and non-verbal."