View Full Version : Ever tried Chiropractic Neurology?


tdrevet
09-23-16, 12:55 AM
Hi there -- I'm a Mom with a son who was diagnosed with ADD in Grade 2. He is now 10 years old. We've been researching different ways of dealing with his condition for 3 years now. I'm wondering if anyone's ever tried "Chiropractic Neurology" (perhaps best known through the Carrick Institute) or "Functional Neurology." I think the basic premise is that brain trauma can cause some of the symptoms commonly diagnosed as ADHD or ADD. The treatment involves identifying hypo-functioning parts of the brain and applying treatments to stimulate brain growth through plasticity. I'm butchering this explanation. I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who has tried this kind of therapy for ADHD or ADD. Thank you!

sarahsweets
09-23-16, 05:04 AM
I dont think Ive ever heard of such a thing. If there isnt evidence to support it though, then its probably one of the thousands of snake oil treatments.

peripatetic
09-23-16, 05:28 AM
I dont think Ive ever heard of such a thing. If there isnt evidence to support it though, then its probably one of the thousands of snake oil treatments.

sorry, but what you wrote comes off as dismissing something as lacking evidence just because you haven't heard of it. not that you said that, but she didn't say there wasn't evidence...she asked if anyone has tried something that she HAS researched.

i get that sometimes being skeptical is a good thing, but i typed the title into google and it turns out stanford neuroscience health center is a place you can have it done and their DEAL at stanford is basically advancing research. legitimate research.

i don't know...sometimes i just wish people would give something the benefit of the doubt and be interested in learning more about what it is as opposed to (and the thread starter NEVER said, she kinda suggested the exact opposite in fact...that there wasn't any evidence to support it) instructing someone that it's probably "snake oil"... and, you know...maybe it is something that doesn't work for everyone, even if there is research supporting it... but if it works for ANYone... isn't that one person just as important?

i feel like sometimes there's a hostility toward holistic, integrative, or just non medical disease model treatment and it's not just you, sarah...not necessarily even primarily you...but this is IN miscellaneous treatments and approaches. why not let people explore and contribute something to promote that exploration instead of (especially since you don't have any experience with/knowledge of it) being prepared to knock it down?

to the thread starter: first off, welcome to the forums :)

i hope that if you pursue it your son finds success/relief. if it helps and he is better able to function in social, academic, personal, other spheres...that's awesome :) i hope if you do try it you post again saying how it's going.

also, just FYI: there's a children's diagnosis/treatment section up in parenting that you might peruse, too.

Unmanagable
09-23-16, 07:50 AM
sorry, but what you wrote comes off as dismissing something as lacking evidence just because you haven't heard of it. not that you said that, but she didn't say there wasn't evidence...she asked if anyone has tried something that she HAS researched.

i get that sometimes being skeptical is a good thing, but i typed the title into google and it turns out stanford neuroscience health center is a place you can have it done and their DEAL at stanford is basically advancing research. legitimate research.

i don't know...sometimes i just wish people would give something the benefit of the doubt and be interested in learning more about what it is as opposed to (and the thread starter NEVER said, she kinda suggested the exact opposite in fact...that there wasn't any evidence to support it) instructing someone that it's probably "snake oil"... and, you know...maybe it is something that doesn't work for everyone, even if there is research supporting it... but if it works for ANYone... isn't that one person just as important?

i feel like sometimes there's a hostility toward holistic, integrative, or just non medical disease model treatment and it's not just you, sarah...not necessarily even primarily you...but this is IN miscellaneous treatments and approaches. why not let people explore and contribute something to promote that exploration instead of (especially since you don't have any experience with/knowledge of it) being prepared to knock it down?

to the thread starter: first off, welcome to the forums :)

i hope that if you pursue it your son finds success/relief. if it helps and he is better able to function in social, academic, personal, other spheres...that's awesome :) i hope if you do try it you post again saying how it's going.

also, just FYI: there's a children's diagnosis/treatment section up in parenting that you might peruse, too.



What peri said. I get so tired of seeing post after post quickly dismissing things that aren't extensively peer reviewed and/or heavily researched. Most of where I found my greatest relief was in the same lesser researched areas. Thank you, peri. You perfectly stated what I feel each time I see it happen.

sarahsweets
09-23-16, 08:29 AM
sorry, but what you wrote comes off as dismissing something as lacking evidence just because you haven't heard of it. not that you said that, but she didn't say there wasn't evidence...she asked if anyone has tried something that she HAS researched.

i get that sometimes being skeptical is a good thing, but i typed the title into google and it turns out stanford neuroscience health center is a place you can have it done and their DEAL at stanford is basically advancing research. legitimate research.

i don't know...sometimes i just wish people would give something the benefit of the doubt and be interested in learning more about what it is as opposed to (and the thread starter NEVER said, she kinda suggested the exact opposite in fact...that there wasn't any evidence to support it) instructing someone that it's probably "snake oil"... and, you know...maybe it is something that doesn't work for everyone, even if there is research supporting it... but if it works for ANYone... isn't that one person just as important?

i feel like sometimes there's a hostility toward holistic, integrative, or just non medical disease model treatment and it's not just you, sarah...not necessarily even primarily you...but this is IN miscellaneous treatments and approaches. why not let people explore and contribute something to promote that exploration instead of (especially since you don't have any experience with/knowledge of it) being prepared to knock it down?

to the thread starter: first off, welcome to the forums :)

i hope that if you pursue it your son finds success/relief. if it helps and he is better able to function in social, academic, personal, other spheres...that's awesome :) i hope if you do try it you post again saying how it's going.

also, just FYI: there's a children's diagnosis/treatment section up in parenting that you might peruse, too.

ok, ok, uncle. It was dismissive. For the record, I am much better at accepting alt treatments, dietary changes etc then I used to be. It has to do with my current medical problems. I have two tumors, one on my thyroid, and one on my adrenal gland. The one on the adrenal keeps growing but the doctors are dragging this thing out and there is nothing I can do about it. Unmangeable actually gave me some useful info to look over and Im slowly going through it.

As a matter of fact (not tooting my own horn here but) I sent her a pm with my apologies and work hard to validate the lifestyle changes that have saved her life.

I should have googled it.
Apologies to the OP.

sarahsweets
09-23-16, 08:30 AM
What peri said. I get so tired of seeing post after post quickly dismissing things that aren't extensively peer reviewed and/or heavily researched. Most of where I found my greatest relief was in the same lesser researched areas. Thank you, peri. You perfectly stated what I feel each time I see it happen.

See post below, being testy and cynical is something I need to work on.

Unmanagable
09-23-16, 08:36 AM
See post below, being testy and cynical is something I need to work on.


We all do. It definitely isn't just a sarah thing, by any means. I sincerely appreciate you reaching out to me as you did. I appreciate your presence here in many ways.

peripatetic
09-23-16, 08:55 AM
ok, ok, uncle. It was dismissive. For the record, I am much better at accepting alt treatments, dietary changes etc then I used to be. It has to do with my current medical problems. I have two tumors, one on my thyroid, and one on my adrenal gland. The one on the adrenal keeps growing but the doctors are dragging this thing out and there is nothing I can do about it. Unmangeable actually gave me some useful info to look over and Im slowly going through it.

As a matter of fact (not tooting my own horn here but) I sent her a pm with my apologies and work hard to validate the lifestyle changes that have saved her life.

I should have googled it.
Apologies to the OP.

hey sarah...uncle right back...i was pretty harsh in my reply.

thanks for reading and understanding where i was coming from even if i could've been a lot more gracious in making my point and should've been a lot less abrasive in calling you out.

you're a good egg and a good friend and i hope you trust i really do know you're not trying to be hurtful/dismissive to people.

and i do think there's a solid role for skepticism. what i might've done better by saying is: just, maybe, let people have some exploration without it sometimes, too.

xx

Lunacie
09-23-16, 11:08 AM
Peri, I wish you'd posted a link to the Stanford research. I'm feeling lazy today.


Kunga Dorji has posted in the past about having spine/neck work done, not by a chiro but some other doc, and he found it very helpful. Wonder if this is the same thing.

Here's one of his threads: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170420

C15H25N3O
09-24-16, 08:13 AM
I had an accident in sports which smashed a spinal disc in my neck when my ADHD went bad.

If it could be healed it would improve my ADHD a lot. I believe there is a connection between
the brain and the body and finding the roots of the dysbalance for a treatment is better than
only treating symptoms. Getting rid off pain and/or motor limitations may sound paradox but
if chiropractic can improve live quality, it also can decrease symptoms like impulsivity, mood-
changes, depressions, inattention, etc like getting rid off any other disease.

I also do have ischias sometimes and prefer chiropractic to any meds because it can heal in
one minute but I need a muscle relaxant to get to the doc.

Kunga Dorji
06-09-17, 01:28 AM
Peri, I wish you'd posted a link to the Stanford research. I'm feeling lazy today.


Kunga Dorji has posted in the past about having spine/neck work done, not by a chiro but some other doc, and he found it very helpful. Wonder if this is the same thing.

Here's one of his threads: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170420


Hi Lunacie,
sorry for the late reply, but better late than never.
Chiropractic neurology is a sort of umbrella term for what is better known as functional neurology or neuro- rehabilitation.

It is a relatively new discipline that is being used especially in migraine, TBI and cases of vertigo. It is also applicable to ADHD and autism. There are many osteopaths and physiotherapists, a few doctors and at least one neurosurgeon that I know who are starting to work with it.

The difficulty is in understanding this is that ADHD etc are terms based on observation of a cluster of behaviours, so you will find that anyone working in this area will have a different way of looking at things.

So the improvements seen might not fit neatly in to behavioural characteristics that arise from the DSM model. Furthermore- this is very very individualised treatment and it would be difficult to standardise it for double blind RCT studies.

It is relevant to the material re neck malalignments I have talked about, but it is looking at the problems in a much deeper level.
The issue is that upper neck malalignments distort the afferent proprioceptive information to the brain massively (and in a way that varies unpredictably and which is not obvious to conscious inspection). Our brain tries to assemble the propriceptive information with the balance system info and visual info to create an image of the world that it can work with.

So this drives all sorts of sensory distortions, it drives clumsiness and eye incoordination, and stress responses.

Just like any computer:- garbage in- garbage out.

The majority of patients with ADHD have deficits that should be amenable to functional neurological treatment- but the treatment takes time.

I have been seeing a specialist in this area fortnightly for the last 18 months and am now getting real improvements both in my ADHD symptoms and my back and neck pain.

What I do know is that the practitioner of this skill set that have completed their training are operating at a very high level and are very concerned about having an evidence base for what they do.

Lunacie
06-09-17, 11:26 AM
Hi Lunacie,
sorry for the late reply, but better late than never.
Chiropractic neurology is a sort of umbrella term for what is better known as functional neurology or neuro- rehabilitation.

It is a relatively new discipline that is being used especially in migraine, TBI and cases of vertigo. It is also applicable to ADHD and autism. There are many osteopaths and physiotherapists, a few doctors and at least one neurosurgeon that I know who are starting to work with it.

The difficulty is in understanding this is that ADHD etc are terms based on observation of a cluster of behaviours, so you will find that anyone working in this area will have a different way of looking at things.

So the improvements seen might not fit neatly in to behavioural characteristics that arise from the DSM model. Furthermore- this is very very individualised treatment and it would be difficult to standardise it for double blind RCT studies.

It is relevant to the material re neck malalignments I have talked about, but it is looking at the problems in a much deeper level.
The issue is that upper neck malalignments distort the afferent proprioceptive information to the brain massively (and in a way that varies unpredictably and which is not obvious to conscious inspection). Our brain tries to assemble the propriceptive information with the balance system info and visual info to create an image of the world that it can work with.

So this drives all sorts of sensory distortions, it drives clumsiness and eye incoordination, and stress responses.

Just like any computer:- garbage in- garbage out.

The majority of patients with ADHD have deficits that should be amenable to functional neurological treatment- but the treatment takes time.

I have been seeing a specialist in this area fortnightly for the last 18 months and am now getting real improvements both in my ADHD symptoms and my back and neck pain.

What I do know is that the practitioner of this skill set that have completed their training are operating at a very high level and are very concerned about having an evidence base for what they do.

Thanks KD. But ... 18 months!

How in the world have you managed to finance that amount of treatment?

In the last year I've been to both a chiropractor and a physical therapist for
several months each, although medicare insurance only paid for 3 months of
each therapy. I thought 6 months was long enough to tell whether it was
helping or not. Certainly didn't think 18 months would be needed. Gosh.

dvdnvwls
06-09-17, 01:36 PM
Chiropractic had very bad beginnings. The original chiropractors were quacks, pure and simple, and every single thing they did was a result of mistaken assumptions that they held as dogma. It's no surprise with that history that many people have an almost reflexive aversion to the word.


However, the whole history of science is a history of stupid mistakes being corrected over time. If there are now people with a chiropractic background who have completely erased the original core ideas of chiropractic and have turned to an evidence-based model instead, then that would mean at least two things: chiropractic would now be part of conventional medicine, and I would now be interested to hear what is being done.

Kunga Dorji
06-09-17, 11:29 PM
Thanks KD. But ... 18 months!

How in the world have you managed to finance that amount of treatment?

In the last year I've been to both a chiropractor and a physical therapist for
several months each, although medicare insurance only paid for 3 months of
each therapy. I thought 6 months was long enough to tell whether it was
helping or not. Certainly didn't think 18 months would be needed. Gosh.

I've had an extremely difficult few years, with chronic, severe pain going back as far as about 2005, and a severe relapse of bipolar early last year.

While I was hoping that the neck treatment would do the job, I had not counted on the fact that the rest of my spine was crooked and significantly worn- and repeatedly put the neck back out again.

As well as the ADHD symptoms and significant back pain I was also getting some really bizarre signs- like sweating on one side of my head, and sleep disruption every night due to pain and discomfort.

The functional neurology treatment is only one session a fortnight, and it is partly covered (5 sessions a year) by medicare.

Now with that and a few sessions with a physio who is building up an exercise program for me things are progressing quite fast, and I am confident that I won't need treatment for much longer.

So- it has been expensive, but I think that my experience is unusual. I do know that smaller children respond very well to this approach, and need far fewer sessions. I was pretty much forced to recognise that I was on a downhill slide- and without a determined effort i would probably end up having a stroke. I'm frustrated that the spinal problem was not picked up in my childhood- as it has been key to many problems- including the ADHD.

Kunga Dorji
06-09-17, 11:42 PM
Chiropractic had very bad beginnings. The original chiropractors were quacks, pure and simple, and every single thing they did was a result of mistaken assumptions that they held as dogma. It's no surprise with that history that many people have an almost reflexive aversion to the word.


However, the whole history of science is a history of stupid mistakes being corrected over time. If there are now people with a chiropractic background who have completely erased the original core ideas of chiropractic and have turned to an evidence-based model instead, then that would mean at least two things: chiropractic would now be part of conventional medicine, and I would now be interested to hear what is being done.

The original chiropractors were too emphatic that their treatment could cure all illness- which it can't. However spinal malalignments do drive asymmetric hemispheric activation in a way that inevitably skews both the autonomic nervous system and the immune system to dysfunction.

The conflict between chiropractic and medicine started shortly after the end of WWI- when it was found that the death rate of patients of chiropractors and osteopaths from "Spanish Flu" was much lower than that of conventional doctors. The chiros were accused of practicing medicine without a licence- and the rest is history.

Lunacie
06-10-17, 10:38 AM
I've had an extremely difficult few years, with chronic, severe pain going back as far as about 2005, and a severe relapse of bipolar early last year.

While I was hoping that the neck treatment would do the job, I had not counted on the fact that the rest of my spine was crooked and significantly worn- and repeatedly put the neck back out again.

As well as the ADHD symptoms and significant back pain I was also getting some really bizarre signs- like sweating on one side of my head, and sleep disruption every night due to pain and discomfort.

The functional neurology treatment is only one session a fortnight, and it is partly covered (5 sessions a year) by medicare.

Now with that and a few sessions with a physio who is building up an exercise program for me things are progressing quite fast, and I am confident that I won't need treatment for much longer.

So- it has been expensive, but I think that my experience is unusual. I do know that smaller children respond very well to this approach, and need far fewer sessions. I was pretty much forced to recognise that I was on a downhill slide- and without a determined effort i would probably end up having a stroke. I'm frustrated that the spinal problem was not picked up in my childhood- as it has been key to many problems- including the ADHD.

So, only twice a month? Every chiropractor I've seen wanted to do twice a
week sessions.

When the PA finally scheduled an xray 40 years after I injured my back and
the small broken bone was clearly seen, she recommended I see a physical
therapist instead. The physical therapist said that while chiro can put the
bones of the spine back in alignment, they don't stay there. And that physical
therapy trains the muscles to align the spine naturally.

I do think the physical therapy was more helpful for me than the chiropractic,
but neither of them did anything to alleviate the pain from that tiny broken
bone. In the last three years I've become nearly wheelchair bound. With the
aid of a walker with built in seat I can walk for perhaps 5 minutes before I
must sit.

Cyllya
06-10-17, 05:59 PM
I wanted to try EEG neurofeedback training (which is still experimental, but the research seems kinda-sorta-arguably promising), and the practitioner I found for it was a chiropractor. So I got some kind of chiropractic adjustment as well, just because it was part of the treatment "package."

I did not notice any benefits to any part of it.

Kunga Dorji
06-11-17, 09:02 PM
I wanted to try EEG neurofeedback training (which is still experimental, but the research seems kinda-sorta-arguably promising), and the practitioner I found for it was a chiropractor. So I got some kind of chiropractic adjustment as well, just because it was part of the treatment "package."

I did not notice any benefits to any part of it.

There is now level 1 evidence for EEG Biofeedback- but it requires 40 sessions of one hour in most cases.

Kunga Dorji
06-11-17, 09:36 PM
So, only twice a month? Every chiropractor I've seen wanted to do twice a
week sessions.

When the PA finally scheduled an xray 40 years after I injured my back and
the small broken bone was clearly seen, she recommended I see a physical
therapist instead. The physical therapist said that while chiro can put the
bones of the spine back in alignment, they don't stay there. And that physical
therapy trains the muscles to align the spine naturally.

I do think the physical therapy was more helpful for me than the chiropractic,
but neither of them did anything to alleviate the pain from that tiny broken
bone. In the last three years I've become nearly wheelchair bound. With the
aid of a walker with built in seat I can walk for perhaps 5 minutes before I
must sit.

I'm sorry to hear you have had such a hard time.
It has taken a very long while to get on top of my pain issues- and no one therapist has had the whole answer. However now that the neuro work has "taken" I am finding that exercises are now having more effect. In fact the last week