View Full Version : How common is experiencing abuse?


Fuzzy12
10-21-16, 03:18 PM
The people who said she shouldn't be living with her child.



And now you're one of them. But like "them" you are wrong.



Then in those extreme cases (not likely here) let the professional report it.

Dont make her afraid to talk to someone.

Facepalm!!

I don't want to give any advice because I think this situation is too serious to get it wrong or give potentially bad advice but I am curious:

Isn't hitting a child with a belt a fairly extreme case??

Stevuke79
10-21-16, 03:25 PM
I don't want to give any advice because I think this situation is too serious to get it wrong or give potentially bad advice but I am curious:

Isn't hitting a child with a belt a fairly extreme case??

It's severe but it's also a common problem.

So no reason to give her fear of seeking help.

aeon
10-21-16, 05:25 PM
Isn't hitting a child with a belt a fairly extreme case??

On the scale of human experience? Sadly, no.

On the scale of the human body’s trauma response? Absolutely, yes.

---

When I was a child, I used to feel a sense of relief getting beaten because it meant 3 things:


I would not be locked in a closet for a weekend
I would not be denied food, water, and loo
the dazed and spacey sensation afterward meant emotional numbness, so no feeling hurt, anger, sad, fear, or otherwise.

A beating was among the minor punishments. My “owner” went quiet afterward, sometimes for a couple of days.


Cheers,
Ian

oops, posted before I saw the 2nd note.

Stevuke79
10-21-16, 06:31 PM
On the scale of human experience? Sadly, no.

To make a little distinction... it may be 'severely' damaging... but it's not 'severely uncommon.

I mean... I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people who were never disciplined with a belt, wooden spoon or something like that.

Actually... i just this second asked my wife and she never was... so right now there are 3 people in my living room (me, dw and dd) and 33% of us have been hit with a belt ... thats not uncommon.

On the scale of the human body’s trauma response? Absolutely, yes.

---

When I was a child, I used to feel a sense of relief getting beaten because it meant 3 things:


I would not be locked in a closet for a weekend
I would not be denied food, water, and loo
the dazed and spacey sensation afterward meant emotional numbness, so no feeling hurt, anger, sad, fear, or otherwise.

A beating was among the minor punishments. My “owner” went quiet afterward, sometimes for a couple of days.
Cheers,
Ian

oops, posted before I saw the 2nd note.

Oh god... that sucks aeon.. im sorry...

But you see fuzz... thats the kind of thing where cps might get immediately involved.

Fuzzy12
10-21-16, 06:41 PM
That is so sad. I mean that physical abuse appears to be so.common. I was never hit with anything neither were most of.my friends. When and where I was growing up that would have been considered extreme. :(

Little Missy
10-21-16, 06:51 PM
That is so sad. I mean that physical abuse appears to be so.common. I was never hit with anything neither were most of.my friends. When and where I was growing up that would have been considered extreme. :(

Me neither. My mum said they were afraid to because I was so loud. :lol:

Lunacie
10-21-16, 10:30 PM
My dad only used his hand to swat my butt, but his hand was as hard as a board. He was a mechanic. Just one swat.

My mom would grab what was handy, flyswatter or pancake turner. Also just one swat. I swore at her once and she slapped me. I don't know which of us felt worse.

stef
10-22-16, 02:04 AM
I was never abused in any way or physically punished beyond a quick swat on the rear
my mom,hit me with a slipper once which really stung , wow she felt terrible

As a parent , reading about abuse just makes my heart sick. niot so much the losing control in a moment of anger and thats wrong and OP is aware of this, but the intentional abuse. wtf , denying food? how????

sarahsweets
10-22-16, 03:19 AM
My Dad stayed in the home too long, and we tried all kinds of therapy and interventions all in the name of having him stay in the home, and "helping" him and trying to understand his issues, blah blah. All while I continued to bear the brunt of the abuse and felt like it was MY fault for not getting it. MY fault for not helping Dad through this tough time. And my mother didnt want him to just get kicked out..he stayed and it didnt get better. Once social services were involved but when they questioned me I defended him-because I was being taught that I didnt matter, I deserved it, and I should be more understanding!
GRR sorry I guess this was more of a vent. Not many here know some of my back story.

OP- no matter what has been said about choices you have, if I gave the impression that you shouldnt seek help, or that you dont deserved to have a role in the lives of your children then I apologize. My knee jerk reaction was to protect the children and maybe I was talking about it in all the wrong ways. I share what I wrote above out of concern for the self esteem of the kids. The obvious factor is that you came for help and thats a huge step.

peripatetic
10-23-16, 04:17 PM
moderator note:

this thread is a split from this thread: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180857

the other one MUST remain on topic, i.e. no more warnings, i'll issue full infractions every time if the other one is not kept strictly to how people can help the thread starter/her children. but i don't want to infract people who've shared so bravely, so, this time, i've created this one so people can share their experiences in answering fuzzy's question as others have on this thread.

please be mindful of notes in the future. message me if you have questions.

-peri

Stevuke79
10-23-16, 07:00 PM
Every parent bar none, will abuse their child.

We need to undo the taboo so parents aren't scared into denial and can talk about it and get the help they need.

peripatetic
10-23-16, 08:42 PM
Every parent bar none, will abuse their child.

We need to undo the taboo so parents aren't scared into denial and can talk about it and get the help they need.

I disagree. I think I understand where you're coming from on wanting to say parents make mistakes.

Here's the thing, though: what people are describing in this thread are their personal experiences with abuse. It's not the case that everyone was abused in the ways people are sharing here. I wasn't.

Please recognize that saying this happens to everyone, on this thread, probably feels invalidating to those who've shared personal experiences that are not known to everyone as part of ones history. I don't think you're doing this on purpose, but if I'd suffered what those on this thread describe, I would feel like that's a slap in the face to hear "everyone is abused".

Just something to consider. Let's support those on this thread for their unique but similar experiences that, I assure you, are not universal and do merit being heard as they're written: from the authors perspwctives...be empathetic to those on this thread opening up about their childhood is what I'm suggesting.

Little Missy
10-23-16, 08:57 PM
Every parent bar none, will abuse their child.

We need to undo the taboo so parents aren't scared into denial and can talk about it and get the help they need.

I feel guilty reading what others have gone through. The closest thing to abuse was my brother and I bickering over doing the dishes and my mum getting mad and chasing us through the house wielding a yardstick, the flimsiest thing imaginable, and my brother and I laughing hysterically at her until she began laughing with it springing back and forth doing nothing.

There was never any abuse in our home in any way, verbal or otherwise.

Tetrahedra
10-23-16, 10:19 PM
Every parent bar none, will abuse their child.

We need to undo the taboo so parents aren't scared into denial and can talk about it and get the help they need.

That's an interesting thought. What do you consider abuse? Is abuse intentional or unintentional? Does it have to happen only once or is its definition hinged on repeated action?

Tetrahedra
10-23-16, 10:20 PM
I feel guilty reading what others have gone through. The closest thing to abuse was my brother and I bickering over doing the dishes and my mum getting mad and chasing us through the house wielding a yardstick, the flimsiest thing imaginable, and my brother and I laughing hysterically at her until she began laughing with it springing back and forth doing nothing.

There was never any abuse in our home in any way, verbal or otherwise.

I love this mental image. :lol:

BellaVita
10-23-16, 11:21 PM
I was abused, all the way up until I moved out (escaped).

By both parents, and sometimes other relatives would stand up for my father and bring up scripture verses saying that I "provoked" him, and making excuses for him. (They even made excuses for him when he said to my face that he hopes I drop dead - I was experiencing sudden back pain that made me collapse)

The first several years of my life my mother was the main physical abuser, I was pinned to the ground and she would get on top of me yelling in my face, she was enraged, her spit would fly all over my face. She would squeeze my chin very hard when she did this. This happened quite a lot until I got bigger.

She would sometimes slap me when she was angry.

There was of course spankings too, we had a "spanking spoon" and I would get spanked, or with my mother or father's hands - however that part I still don't really count as abuse since at the time it was a common parenting method. Nowadays it is considered abuse, and I definitely won't be spanking my future children.

She slammed me against a wall once.

My father dragged me across the floor and then threw me against the hard backside of a couch.

My father threw items, sometimes towards me. He punched holes in walls and punched my door until it cracked, while I was terrified in my room.

He punched me a couple times in the nose/mouth - last time being in the face (mouth area) and that was a point that things really went downhill. I also once saw him punch my mom so hard that she had a baseball sized bruise on her arm.

My mother and father when driving would sometimes randomly be super upset then drop me off on the side of the road. One time that sticks out was when my dad was angry that I was very sick and had to go to the ER - so he dropped me off too far away from the ER and I had to get a police officer's help to take me there.

Those are things I can remember.

I also didn't know but I was sexually abused too, which a therapist made me aware of, but I won't go into detail about that.

But what hurt me the most was the mental/emotional abuse. The manipulation. The being forced to lie to family services that my dad never hit me and that I wasn't getting abused. (I was threatened that if I didn't lie to them I'd get kicked out of the house - which almost happened anyway until my brother convinced my dad to please let me stay.)

The yelling, the names I was called, the gas lighting, the smear-campaigns, the "severe punishments" even though I didn't actually do things wrong, the silent treatments, being manipulated into showering enough love and affection and gifts to be considered "okay" again, the being made to overly-apologize and trying to please them by going on and on about how what I did was "wrong", getting "set up" while my mother had a voice recorder to try to make a made-up situation where she could record it on audio and then she would threaten to tell the cops, my mother breaking into our house while my father was away and she went into his bedroom and downloaded something to keylog his laptop, getting threatened by my mother that I had to go to boarding school or else she would get my dad locked up in jail, getting threatened by my father that he would kill my dogs and his "jokes" about chopping them up into little pieces, the obvious favoritism of my brother who could do no wrong and was spoiled and took on traits by manipulating my parents to get whatever he wanted and then getting treated poorly by him too.....

The getting texted in the middle of the night by my father that I had to do x chores now or else. And would stay up cleaning. (And these weren't left over chores I didn't do, I was good about doing my chores, he was just doing it to intimidate me and make me miserable)

Getting guilted by my mother when we would shop for necessary items for me like clothes and food. This happened so often that I got into the habit of not asking for things I needed and would be desperate for certain things - then I'd get yelled at for not having asked for the things sooner. (Usually by my father)

I was once guilted by her for me helping out my dad and made to feel bad that I didn't do those same chores in her house. (It was actually excessive cleaning)

When I was sick and hospitalized for a long time my parents fought over who had to stay with me because neither of them wanted to, and another time I was hospitalized for a procedure my mother ignored all of my calls and text messages and she never checked on me to see if I was okay. I also got mentally abused by my father when I was sick and had to go to the hospital (at least twice) because he was angry that I had to go to the ER. (Once a psychologist (doctor) warned my parents that at the rate things were going for me I was going to end up hospitalized. And he was completely right. They didn't listen to him though. And now I'm sick with a chronic disease and other things)

Parents would take turns kicking me out of their place because they decided they didn't want me there anymore.

Parents worked together I assume, since someone had to call the cops and I only emailed my mother about my father hitting me, after he had gone to sleep, but instead it got turned around where my father lied to the cops about me, painting me as some insane person who wasn't taking their medication and acted "possessed", forcing me to get locked up in a mental hospital. And the cops mocked me and I froze and couldn't stand up for myself and say that my dad actually had hit me and pushed me to the ground. (This was also what turned into me being forced to lie to family services that I wasn't getting abused later on)

That was a lot, and there was so much more...a bit therapeutic to write it all out.

So yeah, I do have PTSD from all of that, but I'm glad to not be living there anymore.

ginniebean
10-24-16, 12:17 AM
There was a lot of abuse in my home as a child. Teachers alao had no problem hitting kids when I was in school.

Sadly all you have to do is google adhd and child abuse and the numbers are high.

Fuzzy12
10-24-16, 01:01 AM
I'm sure all parents make mistakes, are nasty, stupid and selfish at times and I'm sure that all parents knowingly or unknowingly do things that in some way damages their child but I don't think all that always can be classified as abuse.

At times the line between mistakes, etc and abuse might be blurry but often it is not. In so.many of the cases that you guys are narrating it is not.

I do think that the extent and severity matter hugely. Not every mistake is abuse and abuse is not normal. I don't think it should ever be viewed as normal let alone acceptable.

I was never hit, smacked, spanked, etc as a kid. My parents never in any way raised their hands against me. I don't even recall them yelling at me to be honest. Maybe I was just lucky.

namazu
10-24-16, 02:13 AM
I am also fortunate not to have been abused as a child. The most I dealt with was spanking and (rarely) having my mouth washed out with soap.

Thank you to those of you who had to endure far worse and who have shared your stories.

There was a 2012 study that addressed the frequency of child physical abuse and adult psychopathology (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22806701) in a large, US-based, nationally-representative sample of ~40,000 adults.
Among the whole group, about 8% of adults reported having experienced some form of physical abuse as children. Among people with ADHD, about 33% reported physical abuse as children.
This suggests a couple of things:
1) The majority (2/3) of adults with ADHD were not physically abused as children; however,
2) Adults with ADHD were far more likely than the general population (and even adults with other psychiatric diagnoses) to have experienced abuse as children.

I'll save further discussion of the particulars of this paper for another time and place so as not to bog down the thread, but wanted to put that out there as a point of reference.

Childhood physical abuse is, on the one hand, not nearly as normative as it might seem; it's not something that every parent does, and it's not something that most kids experience. On the other hand, it's still far too common an experience, especially among ADHDers, with long-lasting adverse effects.. We (collectively, as a society) need to figure out better ways to support struggling parents and to protect vulnerable kids.

Pilgrim
10-24-16, 04:40 AM
I have always thought if you knew what you were being punished for that I deserved some type of corporal punishment.
My mother was almost abusive, at times we lived in fear of her.

My father , who was much more stronger, you knew the rules and you broke them.

My brother, who was punished like me, will never hit his kids in temper, my father was similar.
I would do the same if I had to, I'd hate myself if I hit in temper.

Just my opinion.

Fuzzy12
10-24-16, 05:03 AM
Interesting numbers namazu.

Maybw it's cultural differences but again, it strikes me h that you say you were fortunate but you still had to deal with spanking and you got your mouth washed out with soap. Is that just an expression of do you mean actual.soap? Detergent? As a punishment? And isn't spanking still physically violent?

I

BellaVita
10-24-16, 05:40 AM
Oh, and I just remembered a line I sometimes heard growing up, "stop crying or I'll give you a reason to cry"

It is only now as an adult that I realize how ****** up that sentence is, on so many levels.

midnightstar
10-24-16, 08:26 AM
I was another one fortunate to not be physically abused as a child, probably the reason was i was pretty much raised byy my grandparents for the first 8 years of my life. When my biological dad did ever visit he would verbally abuse me and my brother, we could never do the right thing in his eyes. Neither of us have any contact with him now. Hope this maes sense, posting from phone.

Unmanagable
10-24-16, 08:38 AM
I was another one who was raised in a home who used spanking with belts, spoons, belt buckles, switches, and their hands as a normal and expected method of addressing my behaviors and expressiveness.

Many of my teachers also used wooden paddles and would "discipline" you in front of the class. I was a frequent flyer on the other end of that paddle. The verbal intimidation and threats in between paddling sessions left me on edge most of the time.

Then along came a much older cousin (in his 30s), who lived just a few blocks away, who decided to introduce sexual abuse to the mix when I was 13. And it just got much worse and even more complicated from there. It's a never-ending internal struggle.

namazu
10-24-16, 11:13 AM
Interesting numbers namazu.

Maybw it's cultural differences but again, it strikes me h that you say you were fortunate but you still had to deal with spanking and you got your mouth washed out with soap. Is that just an expression of do you mean actual.soap? Detergent? As a punishment? And isn't spanking still physically violent?
"Washing out my mouth with soap" = A drop of liquid hand soap on the tongue, swished with tap water like a foul-tasting, sudsy mouthwash, and spat out in the sink -- as a punishment for talking back to my parents or for using foul language after having been told not to. As Lunacie said above, "I don't know which of us felt worse." I know it was not something my parents relished doing, but I don't think they knew what else to do when things got to that point.

Yes, spanking is physically violent.

In my case, neither punishment caused more than momentary physical or mental discomfort (nor was it intended to) -- no bruises, no broken bones, no lasting mental scars -- so at least as I see it, what was done to me does not rise to the level of physical child abuse.

(My mom's misguided attempts to wake me up for school when I was a teenager by splashing cold water on my head -- done without intent to harm, when nothing else worked: not alarms, not nagging, not pulling off the sheets -- may have been the closest to meeting the definition. Again, done out of desperation and not malice, and with intent to get me out of bed so I would go to school, not to hurt me. I know that my mom, to this day, still feels terribly guilty for not having handled that period better. So do I; I was not exactly delightful to deal with as a teenager, either.)

In any case, I never feared my parents, and always knew that they loved me, even if they would sometimes (though not frequently) lose their cool in response to my intransigence.

Nonetheless, these are not things I would want to do to my own children.

Tetrahedra
10-24-16, 12:39 PM
Hmm. I was spanked as a kid, but I never considered (nor do I consider now) that spanking is physical abuse if it's at the right time and for the right reason. (And done sparingly!)

What was more disconcerting was the manipulation that went on in my family. Spanking might have been unpleasant, but there was a direct correlation between bad action and spanking. Manipulation didn't have any correlation with anything. There was no rhyme or reason. Manipulation, silent treatment, and gaslighting just come out of nowhere.

Stevuke79
10-24-16, 01:01 PM
I disagree. I think I understand where you're coming from on wanting to say parents make mistakes.

Here's the thing, though: what people are describing in this thread are their personal experiences with abuse. It's not the case that everyone was abused in the ways people are sharing here. I wasn't.

Please recognize that saying this happens to everyone, on this thread, probably feels invalidating to those who've shared personal experiences that are not known to everyone as part of ones history. I don't think you're doing this on purpose, but if I'd suffered what those on this thread describe, I would feel like that's a slap in the face to hear "everyone is abused".

Just something to consider. Let's support those on this thread for their unique but similar experiences that, I assure you, are not universal and do merit being heard as they're written: from the authors perspwctives...be empathetic to those on this thread opening up about their childhood is what I'm suggesting.

I feel guilty reading what others have gone through. The closest thing to abuse was my brother and I bickering over doing the dishes and my mum getting mad and chasing us through the house wielding a yardstick, the flimsiest thing imaginable, and my brother and I laughing hysterically at her until she began laughing with it springing back and forth doing nothing.

There was never any abuse in our home in any way, verbal or otherwise.

That's an interesting thought. What do you consider abuse? Is abuse intentional or unintentional? Does it have to happen only once or is its definition hinged on repeated action?

Since you're all asking the same question, ill answer together.

So let me clarify. There are "abusive behaviors" that are always bad but if not done too often, do not constitute "child abuse".
(There are other behaviors which are child abuse even if done once.)

These abusive behaviors are things like yelling, saying hurtful things, making the child feel put down... hitting and hitting with a strap or wooden spoon is BORDERLINE... but to me these are in the category of behaviors that are abusive but not "child abuse" if done rarely.

These are all abusive and never the right thing to do. And all parents will do at least one of these at some point. I know i have. I've yelled. I've made her feel put down.

That doesnt mean the child is abused. But I think we also need to acknowledge and remove the taboo around defining these things as abuse.

They're normal. But they are also abusive.

It's like being in a relationship. You will make mistakes. But it can still all be ok if you apologize to your child, talk about it and work on yourself.

Lunacie
10-24-16, 01:17 PM
Since you're all asking the same question, ill answer together.

So let me clarify. There are "abusive behaviors" that are always bad but if not done too often, do not constitute "child abuse".
(There are other behaviors which are child abuse even if done once.)

These abusive behaviors are things like yelling, saying hurtful things, making the child feel put down... hitting and hitting with a strap or wooden spoon is BORDERLINE... but to me these are in the category of behaviors that are abusive but not "child abuse" if done rarely.

These are all abusive and never the right thing to do. And all parents will do at least one of these at some point. I know i have. I've yelled. I've made her feel put down.

That doesnt mean the child is abused. But I think we also need to acknowledge and remove the taboo around defining these things as abuse.

They're normal. But they are also abusive.

It's like being in a relationship. You will make mistakes. But it can still all be ok if you apologize to your child, talk about it and work on yourself.

Apologizing for losing self-control is something I wish I'd been able to do much sooner.

My daughter knew I loved her and she could talk to me about anything at any time, but I wish I'd been able to apologize for losing my temper ... which I now recognize as a sensory meltdown.

I hope that being able to apologize to my granddaughter will help her be able to do that when needed and not just be saying sorry because you don't want the other person to be mad anymore.

My parents weren't bad or abusive, but they never apologized to me for anything. My hubby on the other hand, would apologize just to get a fight over with, he didn't mean it. Which may be why I didn't ever apologize, I didn't see how to do it sincerely because I didn't have any examples.

Fuzzy12
10-24-16, 01:51 PM
Hmm. I was spanked as a kid, but I never considered (nor do I consider now) that spanking is physical abuse if it's at the right time and for the right reason. (And done sparingly!)

What was more disconcerting was the manipulation that went on in my family. Spanking might have been unpleasant, but there was a direct correlation between bad action and spanking. Manipulation didn't have any correlation with anything. There was no rhyme or reason. Manipulation, silent treatment, and gaslighting just come out of nowhere.

I don't think there is ever s right time or a right reason to spank a child. I agree though that an isolated spanking incident isn't necessarily child abuse abd i also agree that there are worse things that you can do to s child

peripatetic
10-24-16, 01:59 PM
my upbringing was closest to fuzzy's of those i've read. i wasn't struck ever and rarely talked to with a raised voice, but never yelled at even. my mum could be said to be emotionally neglectful, i suppose...after about age nine/ten. but i had and have my father and i had a nanny so i wasn't just on my own. it's just my mum was incapacitated for the most part and that was difficult to handle as a kid when everyone you know has a functional mother.

i don't intend to strike or yell or emotionally damage e. but, of course, some things do happen unintentionally. having no experience with the former two, i doubt i'll partake in those and sincerely do not want to. i can't imagine most of what's detailed in this thread being unintentional though. i think of aeon's post (just because i was so gobsmacked at the thought of a parent doing those things to a child...i'm so sorry you endured that) and i had nothing remotely like that even in my awareness as a child and it's eye opening for me to hear as an adult.

i read a lot of articles and books on child development (and i skim even more ;)) and i'm doing my best to keep my mental health from affecting my child and studies repeatedly show that corporal punishment is unhealthy long term. and doesn't produce desired effects long term. i think in the state of california, or maybe just my city, it is illegal to strike a child with anything other than a hand.

Fortune
10-24-16, 04:02 PM
I don't think there is ever s right time or a right reason to spank a child. I agree though that an isolated spanking incident isn't necessarily child abuse abd i also agree that there are worse things that you can do to s child

Current science is establishing that spanking is pretty much always a bad thing and causes bad outcomes. I think that spanking pretty much always qualifies as abuse, and shouldn't ever happen.

Here's a story on it. (http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers)

fosterthehuman
10-24-16, 04:45 PM
My dad only used his hand to swat my butt, but his hand was as hard as a board. He was a mechanic. Just one swat.

My mom would grab what was handy, flyswatter or pancake turner. Also just one swat. I swore at her once and she slapped me. I don't know which of us felt worse.

this kind of stuff would happen to me too. one time my old step dad at the time even spanked me. i was 14 at the time. i just thought i deserved it though cause i was giving my mom attitude at the time and i would get bad grades. my mom did that so many times that when he did it, it didn't hurt, i just stood there. and then when he finished yelling at me, i started crying. and then my step sisters at the time, just said it'll be okay but i just kept crying. i thought it was something that was normal, cause they would get spanked too. i remember my younger step sister at the time got spanked by him once cause she was hiding snacks in the corner of her bed so she could eat them at night. and then another time, he spanked her cause her looked at her myspace profile and she had put her city in her public profile. i didn't understand why he just didn't talked to her about online safety at the time instead of resorting to that.

another huge time was when i said "**** you" to my mom and then she brought my downstairs and hit me on the butt with a belt, again in high school, probably sophomore year. i never associated it with abuse though like you guys, i thought this stuff happened all the time to kids. i just thought i was just too dumb so that's why i didn't grow out of it sooner. the only reason why i cried when it happened cause i would be embarrassed to have people find out, i thought they would laugh at me. another time, i said something about my my mom's mom, she was living with us at the time and i was mad cause i felt like my mom could have spoken up about some things when it came to her mother and i just remember my mom slapping me, so i screamed at her and said why she did that. she said sorry later. she's done that before, but I've completely forgotten what started it so who knows. but when i was in college, when my mom would try to lay a hand on me for talking back to her, i started just doing the same thing back. so basically if i talked back and she were to grab me, i would push her hand away, which made her slap my hand, which made me do it back, and then before we knew it, we were punching each other.

so idk. i find this interesting cause i honestly don't know how common this stuff is. i just realized that i was adding on to the abuse as well, taking it out on my mom. it's just so weird how we just forget about it though even though i still think about till this day, well it seems like everyone's over it.

aeon
10-24-16, 07:10 PM
Current science is establishing that spanking is pretty much always a bad thing and causes bad outcomes. I think that spanking pretty much always qualifies as abuse, and shouldn't ever happen.

Here's a story on it. (http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers)

I agree with you 100%, and thanks for posting the link to the meta-study of it.

Striking a child with intent, and/or out of passion — spanking or otherwise — is always abuse of that child.

Spanking is always about meeting the desire of the adult/parent who spanks. Theirs is a choice to spank, and so they own that behavior.

All manner of abuses are pushed on children for the simple reason people are unwilling to be responsible for themselves, and children are too small, weak, and unknowing to defend themselves or fight back.

And then there is the fact that oftentimes the child loves their abuser(s), so given the opportunity to defend themselves or fight back, they choose not to, for fear of losing that love and damaging or destroying their bond.


Blesséd Be,
Ian

20thcenturyfox
11-08-16, 10:15 PM
Abuse seems to be a fudge term that has sprung up in the last generation. Initially I think it was meant to apply to forms of aggression or pressure falling short of criminal assault.

But lately it seems to have expanded to cover the whole spectrum from name-calling to rape and grievous injury. I actually think calling everything "child abuse" does a disservice to just about everyone from those who are actually victims of crimes to those whose parents once on a bad day called them stupid or lazy.

Besides, a whole chunk of what we call abuse today was normal, if not mild, family discipline for centuries, sometimes no doubt meted out in anger, but frequently done with regret out of fear for a child's future or character development if society's standards were not impressed upon him..."spare the rod, spoil the child," as the Bible puts it. Do people seriously think that everyone in these harsher times was abused, brainwashed and ignorant of how to raise decent human beings, or that they loved their children any less than we do?

I think "abuse" is a useful concept for many purposes, especially to raise awareness of the lasting emotional damage that may result from repeated "low-level" aggression, hostility, and power relationships despite little overt violence, and to push back against social norms that tolerate or reward these patterns.

But tagging almost any sort of unpleasant exchange in intimate or unequal relationships as "abusive"--and tantamount to much more serious criminal acts--is going in the wrong direction, in my opinion. We have people growing up now who think being "offended" is some kind of grievance we should all band together to prevent or redress. Bah humbug!

Fortune
11-09-16, 05:42 AM
Abuse seems to be a fudge term that has sprung up in the last generation. Initially I think it was meant to apply to forms of aggression or pressure falling short of criminal assault.

But lately it seems to have expanded to cover the whole spectrum from name-calling to rape and grievous injury. I actually think calling everything "child abuse" does a disservice to just about everyone from those who are actually victims of crimes to those whose parents once on a bad day called them stupid or lazy.

Hi, I'm a survivor of both child abuse and partner abuse, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to speak up for survivors like this. These arguments will do more harm than good.

Besides, a whole chunk of what we call abuse today was normal, if not mild, family discipline for centuries, sometimes no doubt meted out in anger, but frequently done with regret out of fear for a child's future or character development if society's standards were not impressed upon him..."spare the rod, spoil the child," as the Bible puts it. Do people seriously think that everyone in these harsher times was abused, brainwashed and ignorant of how to raise decent human beings, or that they loved their children any less than we do?Yes, it was abuse. It had negative effects on the children (and science today supports this conclusion). Just because it was done with the best of intentions (something I will dispute) doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be abusive.

I think "abuse" is a useful concept for many purposes, especially to raise awareness of the lasting emotional damage that may result from repeated "low-level" aggression, hostility, and power relationships despite little overt violence, and to push back against social norms that tolerate or reward these patterns.This is the only paragraph in the quoted post that I would say is accurate.

But tagging almost any sort of unpleasant exchange in intimate or unequal relationships as "abusive"--and tantamount to much more serious criminal acts--is going in the wrong direction, in my opinion. We have people growing up now who think being "offended" is some kind of grievance we should all band together to prevent or redress. Bah humbug!I think this is a straw man. You're not addressing anything anyone has said, rather you're setting up this idea that people are liberally defining abuse in ways you disagree with, without really establishing that this is really happening.

Speaking as a survivor, again, I ask you not to speak up on survivors' behalf because you're not helping.

Luvmybully
11-09-16, 12:19 PM
I agree with you 100%, and thanks for posting the link to the meta-study of it.

Striking a child with intent, and/or out of passion — spanking or otherwise — is always abuse of that child.

Spanking is always about meeting the desire of the adult/parent who spanks. Theirs is a choice to spank, and so they own that behavior.

All manner of abuses are pushed on children for the simple reason people are unwilling to be responsible for themselves, and children are too small, weak, and unknowing to defend themselves or fight back.

And then there is the fact that oftentimes the child loves their abuser(s), so given the opportunity to defend themselves or fight back, they choose not to, for fear of losing that love and damaging or destroying their bond.


Blesséd Be,
Ian

:thankyou:

Hitting another human being is NEVER acceptable. Adults do not hit other adults. Not only is it illegal, it is widely accepted as wrong.

So how on earth can anyone think a child does not deserve that same protection?

Hitting is retribution. Punishment. Vengeance. To do so against a CHILD is disgusting. It teaches them nothing positive, nor does it give them any of the skills they need to function as adults.

It is horrible, the things some of you have endured as children. Just horrible.

I was not abused as a child. My parents are both gone now, and I am ever so grateful they gave me the wonderful childhood I had!

dvdnvwls
11-09-16, 02:07 PM
Some of the truly stupid and truly harmful things that parents end up doing, they do because they honestly think it might work. Education sometimes doesn't help, because people get frustrated with what the educators have told them, and conclude that the educators are out of touch with reality.

Certainly ADHD compounds this situation - both because children with ADHD don't make sense and because parents with ADHD are impulsive and have more often been abused themselves.

Now what?

20thcenturyfox
11-10-16, 04:10 PM
Hi, I'm a survivor of both child abuse and partner abuse, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to speak up for survivors like this. These arguments will do more harm than good.

Even though I experienced both corporal punishment and a good deal of hostility and contempt as a child, I never set myself up as speaking for survivors of the same, much less worse, treatment. I only speak for myself, and respect the right of others to do likewise. As to whether it is harmful for me to hold or express a different opinion from the majority here, how does my doing so possibly cause additional harm to anyone?

Yes, it was abuse. It had negative effects on the children (and science today supports this conclusion). Just because it was done with the best of intentions (something I will dispute) doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be abusive.

I realize this is your opinion and that it is widely shared nowadays. Mine is that "abuse" is, by definition, a cultural norm of what is not a "proper" use. Also that any particular fashion in disciplining of children is open to both conscientious and abusive implementation by parents and caregivers depending on their own level of emotional control and leadership abilities. But in my opinion, "arbitrariness" and "poor modelling of emotional regulation" is much more harmful than, say, spanking, so any "science" that fails to discriminate between principled and unprincipled use of punishments is going to be mushy science.

This is the only paragraph in the quoted post that I would say is accurate. Accurate meaning...that self-described "survivors" can decide the standard by which accuracy is measured? Or maybe we just agree?

I think this is a straw man. You're not addressing anything anyone has said, rather you're setting up this idea that people are liberally defining abuse in ways you disagree with, without really establishing that this is really happening. On the contrary, the OP asked whether it is common to suffer abuse, and others have asked and answered what constitutes "abuse," or what makes certain actions "abusive." The fact that I have a more general opinion on the same subject-- with which you don't agree--does not constitute a straw man. We just don't agree; what's wrong with that?

Speaking as a survivor, again, I ask you not to speak up on survivors' behalf because you're not helping. Again, I hope this has cleared up any misunderstanding that I was speaking for anyone but myself. I remain baffled how simply expressing an opinion out of step with the majority here is "not helping." Helping whom do what? I was just responding to a question about whether suffering abuse is common. My opinion is that if we call anything disagreeable abuse, it is going to be more common, more harmful, and harder to discuss--let alone eradicate--than it needs to be.

Fortune
11-10-16, 08:54 PM
Even though I experienced both corporal punishment and a good deal of hostility and contempt as a child, I never set myself up as speaking for survivors of the same, much less worse, treatment. I only speak for myself, and respect the right of others to do likewise. As to whether it is harmful for me to hold or express a different opinion from the majority here, how does my doing so possibly cause additional harm to anyone?

What I was specifically referring to was the attempt to parse genuinely abusive experiences into "real abuse" and "not real abuse."

I realize this is your opinion and that it is widely shared nowadays. Mine is that "abuse" is, by definition, a cultural norm of what is not a "proper" use. Also that any particular fashion in disciplining of children is open to both conscientious and abusive implementation by parents and caregivers depending on their own level of emotional control and leadership abilities. But in my opinion, "arbitrariness" and "poor modelling of emotional regulation" is much more harmful than, say, spanking, so any "science" that fails to discriminate between principled and unprincipled use of punishments is going to be mushy science.This is splitting hairs. I posted links in an earlier discussing how spanking is harmful to children, and it doesn't matter if the use is "principled" or "unprincipled" it is still harmful. There is no harmless use of violence to discipline children.

On the contrary, the OP asked whether it is common to suffer abuse, and others have asked and answered what constitutes "abuse," or what makes certain actions "abusive." The fact that I have a more general opinion on the same subject-- with which you don't agree--does not constitute a straw man. We just don't agree; what's wrong with that?This is what you wrote:

But tagging almost any sort of unpleasant exchange in intimate or unequal relationships as "abusive"--and tantamount to much more serious criminal acts--is going in the wrong direction, in my opinion. We have people growing up now who think being "offended" is some kind of grievance we should all band together to prevent or redress. Bah humbug! What makes it a straw man is your comment about "tagging almost any sort of unpleasant exchange in intimate or unequal relationships as "abusive"--and tantamount to much more serious acts--is going in the wrong direction, in my opinion."

No one is doing that. You're introducing a statement that people shouldn't do something they're not doing. It's a straw man, not a disagreement. You're objectively wrong that this is going on.

Again, I hope this has cleared up any misunderstanding that I was speaking for anyone but myself. I remain baffled how simply expressing an opinion out of step with the majority here is "not helping." Helping whom do what? I was just responding to a question about whether suffering abuse is common. My opinion is that if we call anything disagreeable abuse, it is going to be more common, more harmful, and harder to discuss--let alone eradicate--than it needs to be.It doesn't help because it leads to another form of emotional abuse called "gaslighting." "Oh, your abuse wasn't real abuse because I think it's only X." That's not helpful, and is silencing. It tells abuse survivors that perhaps they shouldn't talk about the abuse they've experienced or even consider it abuse.

namazu
11-10-16, 09:15 PM
MODERATOR NOTE: Thread re-opened. Some off-topic posts have been removed.

Please keep in mind forum etiquette guidelines (http://www.addforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=75&a=90) when posting, and please try to stay on topic.

20thcenturyfox
11-10-16, 10:02 PM
Current science is establishing that spanking is pretty much always a bad thing and causes bad outcomes. I think that spanking pretty much always qualifies as abuse, and shouldn't ever happen.

Here's a story on it. (http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers)

And it does not appear to me that "science is establishing" anything so simplistic, either. On the contrary, considering how correlated with poor parenting spanking must be nowadays, and how biased against corporal punishment I would expect most researchers to be, I was actually surprised to see how nuanced and moderate some of the recent findings are, as well as how many different variables of parental behaviour, child "outcomes," as well as specific child age groups, temperaments, and other social and cultural factors, are actually being studied.

I did not shell out $11.95 for the study supposedly summarized in the article linked. But as recently as 2009, another study centred on child aggression and maternal warmth referenced the larger body of literature on spanking which does not appear to be any slam-dunk against the occasional use of spanking by some parents against some children of some ages for some reasons. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jacqueline_Roe/publication/227828860_The_moderating_effect_of_parental_warmth _on_the_association_between_spanking_and_child_agg ression_a_longitudinal_approach/links/540be2df0cf2df04e750a37f.pdf

Here's an example of what I mean by "nuanced:"
"The study would have been strengthened by knowing the circumstances under which spanking was used, the severity of the spanking and whether it was used as a primary or back-up method. Spanking that is accompanied by abusive parenting or parenting that involves excessive force is no doubt harmful to children."

It doesn't say that spanking is always abusive, or even generally has bad outcomes on however many of the 100-odd outcome measures considered. And I will bet that if you pay $11.95 for the "current science," it won't say that either.

So let me be clear. I'm not saying I think spanking is best or even good... certainly not better than the generous use of modelling, reasoning, rewards, encouragement, time-outs, withdrawal of privileges, etc. But I would tend to keep it as a last-resort-type option for children from about 4-12 for offences that seemed to be knowing and deliberate, involving other people and their property, particularly anything involving violence or intimidation. Am I worried about teaching them that might makes right? No, I make it clear that I'm standing in for a society that would punish any of us for doing these same things all their lives.

I'm certainly not saying more is better--because I think if it is not rare, then something else is wrong that must be addressed.

But I don't agree every last darn hitting of a child by a parent is abusive, nor that every such child must have suffered lasting harm. I think a more multi-faceted understanding of discipline, and a much more cautious, restrictive, and outcome-oriented definition of "abuse" would be more useful in getting adults to evaluate, and improve, their parenting behaviours, as well as in helping survivors of childhood abuse recover from their hurt, anger, anxiety, etc.

Luvmybully
11-10-16, 11:55 PM
I posted links in an earlier discussing how spanking is harmful to children, and it doesn't matter if the use is "principled" or "unprincipled" it is still harmful. There is no harmless use of violence to discipline children.

YES Fortune! There is no way you can physically hurt a child and claim it is "harmless".

Especially for young children. You cannot hit them and have ANY single positive outcome.

kilted_scotsman
11-11-16, 08:21 AM
Abuse is the intentional hurting of others, physically, psychologically or materially, through manipulating some form of power dynamic.

We can talk about personal and familial abuse more these days, which is good, however we continue to ignore how we, as a society, give some people the legal right to abuse others in our name, and expect them to do so on demand, without question.

As long as abusing others is expected in some circumstances it will remain pervasively common throughout our culture. We can't selectively remove parts of it.... it just metastises.

aeon
11-11-16, 09:05 PM
...I would tend to keep it as a last-resort-type option for children from about 4-12 for offences that seemed to be knowing and deliberate, involving other people and their property, particularly anything involving violence or intimidation.

OK, so you think the choice to render violence on a child, and subsequent use of coercive force, is an appropriate choice and action, given certain situations.

Noted.

Am I worried about teaching them that might makes right? No, I make it clear that I'm standing in for a society that would punish any of us for doing these same things all their lives.

Ownership of and responsibility for your choice is yours, regardless of intent.

You choose to render violence on a child, and then do so, because you want to, and because you can.

And I would personally be quite wary of standing in for a society that is punitive, sometimes to the point of murdering people, for whatever reason. (But that’s just me, and I respect your sense of things might be, and likely is, different.)

Because one thing is for sure...society knows enough might makes most anything right, and they define what is right and what is not, and that is subject to change, per situation if necessary.

And I wonder, what is the point of intimidating and rendering violence on a child, if intimidation and violence are those things judged as requiring punishment because they are undesirable behaviors?

Do as I say, not as I do?

What are you worried about teaching them?

---

As a child, when coercive force was used against my person, I learned many, many things, but the wisdom and prudence to discern that which was right and that which was wrong were not among those things.

But I know how hard I have to be hit to leave a mark, and I know how and where to be struck so as to draw blood. I know what a concussion is—experientially—and I know how to relax and just take it. And I know how long I can go without food, and how long without water, and how long without loo.

And for sure, I know how to keep secrets.

And I know how to smile, and say “please,” and “you are welcome,” and “thank you,” even when I’m bleeding from every orifice, and it takes all I have to stand up because I can’t see straight on account of my bell being rung so very hard.

If anything, coercive force taught me how to lie with the straightest of faces, because it taught me to deny my own experience, and then deny my own person, and then deny that my experience and my person had meaning, worth—that they existed at all—such was my state of psychological distress.


Cheers,
Ian

BellaVita
11-11-16, 10:12 PM
Spanking didn't teach me right from wrong, it taught me how to fear.

As did hitting, being pinned down, slammed against things, and other physical violence towards me.

20thcenturyfox
11-12-16, 04:15 AM
OK, so you think the choice to render violence on a child, and subsequent use of coercive force, is an appropriate choice and action, given certain situations. Ownership of and responsibility for your choice is yours, regardless of intent.
Oh, definitely. And, trust me, I also maintain that the choice to exercise force against adults may also be appropriate in certain situations as well (though on a different basis than the one I sketched out for corporal punishment)!

I guess like many of you I didn't grow up in a world where people don't hit--and brutalize-- each other, though I personally suffered minimally as a child, saw a lot of structure, self-control, and protectiveness in the use of violence, and always felt powerfully protected from that other sort of mindless, casual, or lawless violence that was "out there." So if I absorbed those values early on, I came by them honestly.

Then again part of my adult life has been in the justice system, where again it is hard to lump all violence together as being equally bad, regardless of intent, provocation, victim, rules of engagement, self-control and responsibility. In my world power relationships are absolutely unavoidable; learning to navigate them carefully is important; and it is not desirable to allow a power vacuum to develop, ever.

Naturally when I think of passing these values along to children, personal power is something to be modeled and developed, but so is self-control, protection of the weak, and the sure knowledge that there is always some power bigger than you to answer to.
You choose to render violence on a child, and then do so, because you want to, and because you can.

And I would personally be quite wary of standing in for a society that is punitive, sometimes to the point of murdering people, for whatever reason. (But that’s just me, and I respect your sense of things might be, and likely is, different.)

Because one thing is for sure...society knows enough might makes most anything right, and they define what is right and what is not, and that is subject to change, per situation if necessary.

And I wonder, what is the point of intimidating and rendering violence on a child, if intimidation and violence are those things judged as requiring punishment because they are undesirable behaviors?

Do as I say, not as I do? What are you worried about teaching them?

As a child, when coercive force was used against my person, I learned many, many things, but the wisdom and prudence to discern that which was right and that which was wrong were not among those things.

But I know how hard I have to be hit to leave a mark, and I know how and where to be struck so as to draw blood. I know what a concussion is—experientially—and I know how to relax and just take it. And I know how long I can go without food, and how long without water, and how long without loo.

And for sure, I know how to keep secrets.

And I know how to smile, and say “please,” and “you are welcome,” and “thank you,” even when I’m bleeding from every orifice, and it takes all I have to stand up because I can’t see straight on account of my bell being rung so very hard.

If anything, coercive force taught me how to lie with the straightest of faces, because it taught me to deny my own experience, and then deny my own person, and then deny that my experience and my person had meaning, worth—that they existed at all—such was my state of psychological distress.

Cheers,
Ian
I certainly don't begrudge others their ideals of non-violence, nor am I unfamiliar with the deep suffering that often lies behind it. I just can't picture how society could fulfill its protective functions without ever resorting to some sort of prescribed and controlled violence in defence of persons or property. And I think it will always need people with self-control and judgement, as well as muscle, skill and determination, to defend its values.

I would, however, ask you to consider that, when it comes to any of the instances of abuse that typically come before the courts, we are going to be on the same side 99% of the time. When you think of actual situations of abuse, there is substantial common ground between those who oppose all violence against women or children, and those who primarily oppose the cunning lack of self-control that causes people who can control themselves just fine in the presence of strong adults to lose control and lash out physically only toward the weakest members of society.

Fuzzy12
11-12-16, 04:40 AM
I guess, the only time you can justify violence is as a form of defense and even then only as a last resort and as measured, controlled and minimal as possible. However, there are very few instances where anyone needs to be defended from a child and even in those cases you'd use some form of restraint rather than aggressive violence I guess.

I don't even agree with the threat of violence..as in eg 'stop screaming or I'll smack you', which I sometimes hear from parents. I mean what's that supposed to teach the child??

Unmanagable
11-12-16, 10:29 AM
From where I now stand, I see the cycle of physical punishment as never ending, unfortunately.

Mainly because we're raised in a society that supports, encourages, pays those willing dish it out rather well as incentive (or at least promises to until you sign the dotted line), and even glamorizes violence, whether it's on our dinner plates, in our schools, on the tv/computer screens, in the justice system, in the home, on the streets, etc.

As long as we continue to feel it's okay to put hands on ANY species and kill/harm them for our ________ (fill in the blank with "safety", "pleasure", "discipline" or whatever applies in the moment), we've already shot ourselves in the foot before we even have a chance to think about the long term consequences of continuing to think it's okay to handle ourselves and our energetic exchanges in that manner.

20thcenturyfox
11-12-16, 04:08 PM
...I don't even agree with the threat of violence..as in eg 'stop screaming or I'll smack you', which I sometimes hear from parents. I mean what's that supposed to teach the child??

I heard this too (though never from my own parents or from anyone I respected). Even as a child I knew that as threats of violence go, this is pretty pathetic and actually models weakness, and lack of other resources as well as of direction. Not that weakness can't be dangerous, but weak all the same. This is not the message from someone with their eye on the ball.

For those of you who did suffer abuse from out of control caretakers, did you feel these people (however flawed) could keep you secure from outside threats? Or were you under so much threat from within that outside threats (either physical or economic) weren't even an issue?

aeon
11-12-16, 04:54 PM
For those of you who did suffer abuse from out of control caretakers, did you feel these people (however flawed) could keep you secure from outside threats? Or were you under so much threat from within that outside threats (either physical or economic) weren't even an issue?

My situation was otherwise.

Outside was sexual abuse, drugging.
Inside was physical abuse, emotional/psychological abuse.

Keep me safe? The only safe space was school (day care, school). The idea of someone actually protecting me is totally foreign, I mean, I tried to imagine it and I didn't have any response or memory or association...it is totally outside of my experience.

Other children and animals seemed safe (still do), but adults, back then, definitely not.

I didn't have a sense of a defined safe space...except those places that could be found through reading, daydreaming, and full-on dissociation.

Of course, I didn't think about it or understand it as I explained it just now, back then.

I was 3, 4, 5 years of age. The only way I could understand my situation was that I was bad. Safety was never an issue. Things happened to me because of who - what - I was. If there was protection, a safe place...I wasn't good enough for that, I didn't deserve that. I was born so people could do things to me.

I don't think/feel that way now, but as a young child it was something like that. It was the best I could do, it was the only thing that I could come up with to make any sense of it all.


Cheers,
Ian

BellaVita
11-12-16, 05:13 PM
For those of you who did suffer abuse from out of control caretakers, did you feel these people (however flawed) could keep you secure from outside threats? Or were you under so much threat from within that outside threats (either physical or economic) weren't even an issue?

Outside threats were the least of my worries, I felt way safer any place away from them.

It was about surviving the daily threats to my safety that were going on inside, behind closed doors.

I came up with strategies, and I told myself starting at around age 14, that the only way I was going to get through this is if I were smarter than my parents and used logic. This was true especially since I'm disabled in more than one way. It was all I had. (That same type of thinking is what allowed me to elaborately plan and execute my escape from my parents for good)

I developed coping strategies such as charting my mother's moods, learning to not say anything, hiding in my room, listening to David Archuleta, learning my father's/mother's schedules, daily exercising very hard, and writing in my journal (which, my mother read sometimes, and my privacy was taken from me. I had to learn to write in my journal using acronyms for what I wanted to say - or else she'd get upset at me and manipulate me.)

I also got a dog named Bella a few days before my 13th birthday. She was one of the only things that helped me not commit suicide (David Archuleta's music greatly helped me too). If I didn't have her, there's a very good chance I wouldn't be here today. I had to take care of her, she relied on me, that's what helped me keep living. (And the countless nights of her staying very still while I cried into her hair, she was an empathic comfort to me)

Of course these only helped so much, because abusers are highly unpredictable, and I still suffered abuse on a daily basis. Actually, I learned to expect it. And they do not respect your area, or your privacy, and there is no such thing as boundaries. They do anything to intimidate, to make you feel not safe, threatened, and scared to even think your own thoughts.

Even my coping mechanisms were used against me - my father punching cracks/ holes in my door and becoming very angry if I was in my room to hide from him(throwing the door open and coming after me violently), threatening he'd kill my dog, my mother reading my journal, after my father kicked her out she would still break into the house when he was away sometimes, my mother becoming very upset at me and mocking/guilting/mentally/emotionally abusing me even if I didn't say a single word, only the things I hid well-enough from them (like charting moods/keeping track of schedules) were the only things they didn't turn around into a tool to hurt me. (I guess the them being unpredictable part kind of takes care of that, though :()

I always felt way safer whenever I was away from them.

BellaVita
11-12-16, 05:47 PM
This is random but I need to spill it:
Even to this day I feel guilt when we shop for food, I often apologize to my husband for asking for/when he brings back food.

He of course constantly comforts and reassures me, that getting food is no big deal, that my guilt is from living with my parents. It's taking me a long time to realize that I shouldn't feel guilty over getting food.

I have tried to stop saying I'm sorry, but it still happens probably a couple times a month.

aeon
11-12-16, 05:55 PM
How common abuse is is not for me to say, having to define what is and what is not being beyond me on account of boundary, so others can speak for their own experiences and decide and tell their story.

But violence against children, for whatever intent?

Common seems enough of an understatement so as to almost become a nonacknowledgement, and so a disregard, a disrespect.

In terms of personal and societal cost, surely the consequences of developmental trauma as a result of violence experienced in childhood is our most fundamental problem, most pervasive insult to the realization of human potential, and ultimately, the single greatest threat to the long-term survival of our species on account of what those consequences affect and inform.

As a result, it is little talked about, for reasons of shame, denial, and it seeming so big as to be overwhelming.

Love will prevail, but how many bodies, hearts, minds, and wills to being shall be broken on the wheel first?


Cheers,
Ian

20thcenturyfox
11-13-16, 01:47 PM
I can't relate these enmeshed and degrading situations some of you describe to "ordinary" corporal punishment at all. But I can see why you might not be able to imagine children just being calmly and briefly punished--even harshly punished--for unacceptable behaviour by parents who are mostly rational and in charge of themselves...and the next day everything goes back to "normal"--whatever normal is, with the kids not feeling they are bad or unsafe or that their parents are unpredictable. Safety and predictability seem very important.

Where I saw things go off course was not with the spanking, per se, but when it becomes unfair or an attack on a child's character or self-respect. So, for example, my father was the harsher disciplinarian, but it was my mother who would call me names, ridicule my feelings and express contempt for my accomplishments. Luckily for me she was pretty open about her dislike, and I was aware of other adults (neighbours, relatives, even teachers) watching and coming up with ways to get me out of there (eg staying after school in Grade 2 to help the teacher grade papers!). I can't count the number of people who told me "Your mother loves you, honey, she just doesn't know how to show it." But she certainly wasn't slapping me around or depriving me of food.

Later after my mother left, I also recall my father going overboard using a belt on my brother, who was obviously going to be big, and was starting to get bitter. By overboard, I mean we could see it was more about ego than what we would consider legitimate correction of anti-social behaviour. Eventually around age 14 my brother did slam my father against a wall and tell him that was the last time he would ever hit him. And it was. I didn't have the same luxury, so had to do a bit more tiptoing around. But while the implied threat of violence was always there, actual violence was rare...maybe a few times a year at most... mainly painful, not dangerous, and generally about predictable lines that should not be crossed.

Is there anyone who experienced this more restrained and predictable type of corporal punishment who feels they were abused?

Fuzzy12
11-13-16, 02:40 PM
Fox, I'm really sorry you had to experience that ll. To be honest to me that doesn't sound restrained at all. Predictable maybe but Idoubt it helps.if a child expects to get belted.