View Full Version : .."doing what you know."


mildadhd
11-13-16, 03:36 AM
What is your take on the quote below?

ADD is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what you know.
-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D., "Improved Delay Responding"

Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?




G

Impromptu_DTour
11-13-16, 03:53 AM
funny. i just had a similar conversation with another engineering major about all kinds of stuff related to the ADHD perspective and learning/drive/motivation/addiction

so is it a matter of ability or lack of ability? motivation? or is it more a matter of the lack of a more immediate reward than the investment of "doing what you know" would provide?

iDTour

mildadhd
11-13-16, 04:56 AM
funny. i just had a similar conversation with another engineering major about all kinds of stuff related to the ADHD perspective and learning/drive/motivation/addiction

so is it a matter of ability or lack of ability? motivation? or is it more a matter of the lack of a more immediate reward than the investment of "doing what you know" would provide?

iDTour

Unconditioned general motivation dopaminergic pathways originate in the deeply subcortical (midbrain) areas of our brains, not the higher neocortical areas of the brain.

Our unconditioned general motivational drive is primarily emotional-affective.

Does the number of dopamine neurones originating in the lower midbrain, influence the development of higher areas of the same dopaminergic pathways involved in self-regulation?

I think it is a possibility.

In other words, any lower emotional-affective deficits of motivation in early life, may influence development of higher cognitive self-regulation.

If so, then at least some forms of AD(H)D (aka, deficits of self-regulation) could be primarily emotional-affective.


G

Pilgrim
11-13-16, 05:03 AM
I think a way to put it , ' doing what you know at the right time and right task '

Can someone explain why this problem even exists?

Little Missy
11-13-16, 08:19 AM
I think a way to put it , ' doing what you know at the right time and right task '

Can someone explain why this problem even exists?

Because we have ADHD? :scratch:

stef
11-13-16, 09:44 AM
i read as it its just so hard to get organized, to do what you know
( as in, " what you know" is a skill or career or hobby etc)

john2100
11-13-16, 10:08 AM
What is your take on the quote below?



Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?




G

It's not a motivation problem .
We start do do it, but we fail many times, because our executive function is impaired. So sooner or later we stop even trying .That looks like lack of motivation but it's not. Like he said, that ADD---attention deficit disorder ,,is not really attention problem but doing problem, or something of that nature.
That name ADD should be changed, I have no problem with attention, every second of my life I pay attention ,I see wast is wrong , I know what needs to be done,,but doing it, that 's the problem,,,

Lunacie
11-13-16, 11:07 AM
No. It's not a lack of motivation. It's not emotional.

It's a problem in the executive function skills.

Executive functions consist of several mental skills that help the brain organize and act on information. These skills enable people to plan, organize, remember things, prioritize, pay attention and get started on tasks. They also help people use information and experiences from the past to solve current problems.

What causes executive functioning issues?

Scientists still aren’t sure why some children have executive functioning difficulties. Research has identified some possible links:

Genes and heredity: Kids differ in how they use executive skills. But chances are high that your child uses them in the same way you do. Studies show that the differences among kids are almost completely influenced by genes.

Brain differences: For the most part, executive functioning is controlled by a region of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. Research has shown that people who have disorders, diseases or injuries to the prefrontal cortex often develop executive functioning issues. Experts are using that research to study whether the prefrontal cortex in kids with executive functioning issues works differently than in other kids.

Other disabilities and disorders: Kids with ADHD and dyslexia often struggle with executive functioning. So do children with neurological conditions, mood disorders, autism and acquired brain injury.


Both quotes from: https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/executive-functioning-issues/understanding-executive-functioning-issues

Little Missy
11-13-16, 11:22 AM
Right now I know I need to slap on mascara and get on it to LOL's.

But I can't.

I won't pick up dog poop either.

Cyllya
11-13-16, 05:42 PM
Whether doing what you know you need to do is a "motivation" problem, the answer is either "no" or "sometimes" depending on what you mean by motivation.

One aspect of executive function is initiation of actions. There's not a lot of info about this, but from what I can tell...
It's possible to have initiation impairment, just like it's possible to have attention impairment, working memory impairment, impulse control impairment, etc.
Initiation impairment is a really weird and subtle problem. I haven't found a better way to describe it than "a weird urge to not do things." You can theoretically overcome it through force of will, but having to do that constantly with every little task in your life is incredibly stress-inducing.
I consider myself to have initiation impairment, and I've noticed a lot of people on this forum seem to have it too. (I'm guessing it's not everyone, similar to how not everyone has impulse control impairment.)
It's not an official ADHD symptom, but it can contribute to some of the behaviors in the inattentive section of the diagnostic criteria. (However, I'm guessing that most neuropsych tests designed to test for attention impairment wouldn't pick up on it.)
Initiation impairment is sometimes referred to as "lack of motivation," but I don't like calling it that because "motivation" can mean all sorts of things.


All EF impairment, including initiation impairment, can contribute to us failing to accomplish things, so if you're referring to initiation impairment as "lack of motivation," then "motivation" may be part of the problem (usually not the entire problem). But it's important not to mix that up with other definitions of "motivation."

Like, I lack "motivation" to go skydiving, and therefore, I don't go skydiving. And there's no problem there. On the other hand, I do have "motivation" to wash my laundry (because even though that's not an enjoyable action in itself, I want the consequence of having clean clothes), so any failure to wash my laundry is a problem.

20thcenturyfox
11-13-16, 08:34 PM
I certainly think of my problems as being primarily with motivation, regardless of whether--moment to moment--it may seem like being stuck (in a counterproductive feeling or idea), trying to walk in glue, trying to cajole a crabby toddler, being completely exhausted and dry-mouthed from a few minutes' decent effort in the right direction, and (most recently) being sabotaged by feelings of sadness and loss at the very time I am (finally!) succeeding in doing exactly what I know I should be doing to make tomorrow better.

I may have to reintroduce a belief in the devil into my spirituality, because if this does not resemble the work of a devil in trying to lure a person off course--by raising hell with my executive functions-- I don't know what does.

mildadhd
11-14-16, 02:36 AM
What I am wondering is how the number of dopamine neurones originating in the lower VTA midbrain more emotional-affective areas influence development of dopamine receptors in the higher more cognitive areas of the same dopaminergic pathway involved in executive function/self-regulation?

Note in the picture the pathway projecting to the prefrontal cortex in blue, originate in the lower midbrain VTArea first, then project up to the prefrontal cortex..then around and back down again.

Development/maturation in early life occurs first from the bottom up, then top down.


The mesolimbic pathway, sometimes referred to as the reward pathway, is a dopaminergic pathway in the brain.[1] The pathway connects the ventral tegmental area, which is located in the midbrain, to the nucleus accumbens. The mesolimbic pathway releases dopamine into the nucleus accumbens, where it affects motivation for rewarding stimuli (i.e., incentive salience), the subjective perception of pleasure, and reward-related motor function learning.[2][3][4] It is the most significant neural pathway in the brain in which changes occur in all known forms of addiction.[1][5][6][7]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolimbic_pathway

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Dopaminergic_pathways.svg/446px-Dopaminergic_pathways.svg.png

The mesocortical pathway is shown here in blue, projecting to the prefrontal cortex from the VTA.
The mesocortical pathway is a dopaminergic pathway that connects the ventral tegmentum to the prefrontal cortex. It is one of the four major dopamine pathways in the brain. It is essential to the normal cognitive function of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (part of the frontal lobe), and is thought to be involved in cognitive control, motivation, and emotional response.[1][2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesocortical_pathway

The mesocortical and mesolimbic pathways are sometimes referred to simultaneously as the mesocorticolimbic projection, system, or pathway.[2][5]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways

?

SB_UK
11-14-16, 10:14 AM
As we accumulate more information on pretty much everything - it becomes difficult to make the simple observation that

We can show motivation.
No matter how hard we tell ourselves we need to do something - if we have no intrinsic motivation - we fail (procrastinate - call it what you will).

We simply lack the capacity to force ourselves to do something that is of no interest.

This is a very good property as it ensures we follow our interests - however - this is a profoundly disordering property in a world where we need to shut up and do what we're told.

15 or so years ago ADDF/MeADD823 described ADHD as having a mind with a mind of its own - this basic description describes ADHD perfectly.

Why can some people derive reward ?
And other people not ?

It's easy to dissect - when we see that the world outside relies (for reward) - the individual to beat another.
To obtain reward in the world as created we NEED to obtain reward from beating another person into a pulp.

You must nail that deal.
You must beat all-comers to a pay rise.
You must be the one who secures that high paying job.
You must beat all people in a race.

The entire fabric of society is set up around what we might call the competitive reward system.

The ADDer reward system sees no benefit in beating any other person - and so we're not permitted (since no reward is felt) - any motivation.
We can't engage in the typical 'competitions' which when strung together - make up what is called life in this world.

We're personal quality oriented - which travels alongside global group quality.

But do we need to find the neural or genetic mechanism inside the head in order to work any of this out ?
No.

Just to show insight into what makes us tick.

Simply list all of the behaviours which ADDers find rewarding in one column and the ones we can't do in another column.

Competition for the sake of winning won't tick any boxes.
Becoming better will.

Even if becoming better might involves simple meditation.
Love the walking meditation.

SB_UK
11-14-16, 10:26 AM
What do we need from genetics in order to understand the ADHD story ?
Little.

What do we need from neuroscience in order to understand the ADHD story ?
Don't need anything - but like the social anterior cingulate cortex reward system and the Intense World Theory mechanism - which opens the door to our both enforcedly social and quality (quality represents the capacity to recognize ever more intricate sensory patterns) -loving motivations in life.

20thcenturyfox
11-14-16, 12:58 PM
It's starting to look more like a working memory problem than an EF problem per se. Apparently there are "hot" and "cool" EF functions, and we've been studying the "cool" ones when we need to look at the "hot" ones: Characterizing cognition in ADHD: Beyond Executive Function, 2006 Castellanos http://www.ibl.liu.se/student/psykologi/735g03/filarkiv/1.75058/Castellanossem4neurovt08.pdf

Who knew? Personally I'm still stuck trying to find motivation & rewards for "doing what I know."

midnightstar
11-14-16, 02:58 PM
What is your take on the quote below?



Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?




G

*MOD NOTE from your local friendly moderating team*

Please get back to what this thread is actually about, namely the post I have quoted to remind everyone of the original topic.

Thanks for cooperating :)

SB_UK
11-14-16, 03:34 PM
What is your take on the quote below?



Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?




G

yes

(what do we do now ?)

midnightstar
11-14-16, 03:43 PM
yes

(what do we do now ?)

You can discuss why you say yes (or if your answer is no, you can discuss why you said no) :)

Greyhound1
11-14-16, 05:10 PM
Thread is closed for staff review

Greyhound1
11-19-16, 11:52 AM
Thread has been reopened after review. Sorry for the delay. Please remain on topic and enjoy the thread.

Lunacie
11-19-16, 12:27 PM
Mild asked: Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?

I read this and thought of his question.


Abnormalities in reward processing ― the way that brain processes desire, potential rewards, and motivation ― are common to both autism and ADHD, and the new study revealed a closer look at how this plays out on a neurological level. The researchers found that one particular brain region, the caudate nucleus ― a mass of grey matter, which is involved in things like planning, directed movement and goal-directed behavior ― was able to predict the level of autistic traits in patients with ADHD.
read the whole article here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0d9ce6fbee16f

info on the study itself: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0165620

mildadhd
11-20-16, 02:19 AM
Brain reward circuitry beyond the mesolimbic dopamine system: A neurobiological theory (Satoshi Ikemoto)

If I understand correctly motivation/drive is not limited to dopaminergic pathways/systems.

Author outlines "..a neurobiological theory claiming that there is an intrinsic central process that coordinates various selective functions (including perceptual, visceral, and reinforcement processes) into a global function of approach"..

.."In addition, studies found roles of non-dopaminergic mechanisms of the supramammillary, rostromedial tegmental and midbrain raphe nuclei in reward."..

(Lots of really interesting information in this article to consider, reading recommended)

Keywords: Motivation, Affective arousal, Conditioned place preference, Module, Median and dorsal raphe nuclei, GABA, Glutamate, Seeking, Depression, Mania, Addiction

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894302/#!po=45.2128


G

mildadhd
11-20-16, 03:02 AM
yes

(what do we do now ?)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corecgi/tileshop/tileshop.fcgi?p=PMC3&id=904748&s=21&r=1&c=1

Kunga Dorji
12-07-16, 09:49 PM
What is your take on the quote below?



Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?
G

No, I don't think the problem is conceived in this way at all.
"Motivation", in the sense that we use it is primarily a psychological phenomenon, in some cases or a more general energy problem-- in the case of conditions like depression.

ie the conversion of ADHD to ODD in children who have had emotionally upsetting upbringings, produces a motivation state that is oppositional- wanting to do the opposite of what is wanted.

In ADHD the things that don't get done are usually things that we WANTED to do, set out to do, and had every intention of doing.

A classic minor example is writing out a shopping list, then forgetting to bring it with us. Nett result- an angry spouse when all we wanted to do was help!

ADHD is fundamentally a sub-cortical problem, and motivation is primarily a conscious phenomenon.

It really has more to do with the routing of signals from structures like the basal ganglia (via dopaminergic neurones) to other parts of the brain.

So in the above example the "shopping list signal" is insufficiently strong to take over brain function well enough to be executed.
End result- the brain is dealing with a number of competing signals for a number of different tasks and it skips between them without competing any.

IN the case of ADHD underfiring of the dopaminergic neurones in the midbrain and the basal ganglia (and this can occur for a number of reasons- not just a genetic problem in dopaminergic transmission) leads to a situation where the "signal" of the task at hand is often getting drowned out by the "noise" of other competing stimuli.

This is not a motivation problem-- but using strategies such as self talk to enhance motivation (strategies which the neurotypical" might not have to use because of their more efficiently functioning brain) may well help get the job done.

Kunga Dorji
12-07-16, 09:58 PM
The following is a little dense- but it gives a useful idea of just how dopaminergic pathways are involved in maintenance of goal oriented behaviour.
The basic idea is that performance of one task requires suppression of attention to other tasks (while allowing for peripheral scanning attention for unexpected threats, and that this task is something that the brain does automatically.
Motivation is more an act of will.

Manual Therapy in Children
ed Dr Heiner Biedermann ( Orthopedic surgeon)-- a book which discusses ADHD extensively
Chapter 23- extract:
P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } Midbrain: ~100,000 dopaminergic neurones projecting to the prefrontal cortex
each neurone has more than 500,000 connections at cortical level
Reciprocal connection b/w PFC and midbrain.


Most PFC cognitive operations depend upon a precise and timely activation of the dopaminergic neurones.
Theoretically this should require a very “fine grained” dopaminergic signal.


However given the sale of the projections, the cortical signal cannot be about detailed contents, but only about level of activity.


?How does this allow for specificity?


PFC processes “highly interesting stimuli” → dopaminergic cells fire a broad, undifferentiated, but timely signal.
Dopaminergic signal arrives and several groups of reverberating neuronal circuits, the cellular assemblies compete with each other for dominance in the PFC.


Dopaminergic influence enhances the activity of the highly active circuits while suppressing the excitability of the weakly active cells- which suddenly allows the dominant cell group to play
P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }
“winner takes all” and capture all relevant resources until a new internal or external stimulus results in a new peak of activation.


IE Dopamine increases signal to noise ratio.

ginniebean
12-08-16, 01:17 AM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7QuWchHvOY

mildadhd
12-08-16, 10:25 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7QuWchHvOY

ginniebean

What does Dr. Barkley mean when he refers to ADHD separating two areas of the brain like a clever?


G

mildadhd
12-08-16, 11:33 PM
Manual Therapy in Children
ed Dr Heiner Biedermann ( Orthopedic surgeon)-- a book which discusses ADHD extensively
Chapter 23- extract:
P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } Midbrain: ~100,000 dopaminergic neurones projecting to the prefrontal cortex
each neurone has more than 500,000 connections at cortical level
Reciprocal connection b/w PFC and midbrain.



The foundation of reciprocal relationship in the midbrain.

Are there 100 000 dopaminergic neurones in the midbrain at birth?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at birth?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at age one?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at age four?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at age twenty one?

Imagine the reciprocal relationship between preverbal affective consciousness and verbal cognitive consciousness, at age one.

I have more questions.


G

mildadhd
12-08-16, 11:52 PM
Drive in general, in the absence of threat.

More Cognitive Numerator/Affective Denominator, before birth and age of four.

More Affective Numerator/Cognitive Denominator, after age of four?


G

Kunga Dorji
12-09-16, 08:17 AM
The foundation of reciprocal relationship in the midbrain.

Are there 100 000 dopaminergic neurones in the midbrain at birth?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at birth?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at age one?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at age four?

I wonder how many connections b/w the midbrain and PFC, at age twenty one?

Imagine the reciprocal relationship between preverbal affective consciousness and verbal cognitive consciousness, at age one.

I have more questions.


G


I think it would be very hard to answer these questions at this stage- I guess the research may not have been done yet.
If anything there would be pruning of neurones between birth and adulthood and increasing elaboration of the synaptic connections.

From what I recall of my neuro- embryology areas like the midbrain are near mature at birth.
Certainly this applies to the brainstem (immediately below the midbrain)- which is essential for basic life maintenance.

ginniebean
12-09-16, 12:57 PM
ginniebean

What does Dr. Barkley mean when he refers to ADHD separating two areas of the brain like a clever?


G

The meat cleaver is an analogy, he's not suggesting it as fact. What he means is that Adhd is a frontal lobe disorder. How to do something is learned in the back portion of the brain and executing what you've learned is a frontal lobe function. Because in Adhd the posterior lobe functions and the frontal lobe functions do not work in concert, learn (back part of brain) and then do (frontal lobe), it is analogous to there being a separation between two parts that must work in concert in order to be effective.

mildadhd
12-10-16, 12:56 AM
The meat cleaver is an analogy, he's not suggesting it as fact. What he means is that Adhd is a frontal lobe disorder. How to do something is learned in the back portion of the brain and executing what you've learned is a frontal lobe function. Because in Adhd the posterior lobe functions and the frontal lobe functions do not work in concert, learn (back part of brain) and then do (frontal lobe), it is analogous to there being a separation between two parts that must work in concert in order to be effective.

Circumstances that stimulate our primary fear response system, shift brain activity away from the cognitive prefrontal cortex to the deeply subcortical affective midbrain area.

Distressing circumstances stimulate bottom up affective functions interrupting development of front and back top down cognitive functions.

Consistently exercising our fear system may result in a type of anxiety.

Inconsistently exercising prefrontal cortex may result in a type of deficits of self-regulation. (Aka a type of AD(H)D)

G


we found that as the virtual predator grew closer, brain activity shifted from the ventromedial prefrontal cortex to the periaqueductal gray.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/317/5841/1079.full

ginniebean
12-10-16, 02:11 PM
Circumstances that stimulate our primary fear response system, shift brain activity away from the cognitive prefrontal cortex to the deeply subcortical affective midbrain area.

Distressing circumstances stimulate bottom up affective functions interrupting development of front and back top down cognitive functions.

Consistently exercising our fear system may result in a type of anxiety.

Inconsistently exercising prefrontal cortex may result in a type of deficits of self-regulation. (Aka a type of AD(H)D)

G

That is all uninteresting to me and has little to nothing to do with the quote you posted. An incomplete quote.

mildadhd
12-10-16, 03:19 PM
We need to understand the reciprocal relationship between bottom up affective functions and top down cognitive functions to understand how the whole brain works and develops.

Anything else would be less scientifically complete.

Dopaminergic pathways originate in the midbrain projecting up to the prefrontal cortex looping around allowing top down functions, to function.



The mesolimbic pathway transmits dopamine from the ventral tegmental area (VTA) to the nucleus accumbens. The VTA is located in the midbrain, and the nucleus accumbens is in the ventral striatum. The "meso" prefix in the word "mesolimbic" refers to the midbrain, or "middle brain", since "meso" means "middle" in Greek.


The mesocortical pathway transmits dopamine from the VTA to the prefrontal cortex. The "meso" prefix in "mesocortical" refers to the VTA, which is located in the midbrain, and "cortical" refers to the cortex.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Dopaminergic_pathways.svg/446px-Dopaminergic_pathways.svg.png

mildadhd
12-10-16, 03:57 PM
Note to members interested, the Mesocorticolimbic dopaminergic pathways projecting from the midbrain are associated in some way with ADHD, addiction and schizophrenia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic_pathways

Working on understanding definition motivation.

What I am partly learning is I need to understand how the whole brain works and develops reciprocally to understand.

Note to members uninterested, please do not derail this really intertesting thread discussion.





G

Lunacie
12-10-16, 04:37 PM
Well, it's your thread so I won't complain but you seem to have veered off the original topic yourself.

Hence, you derailed it first. So those who were interested in the OP may not be interested any more.

Just an observation from my viewpoint.

mildadhd
12-10-16, 05:16 PM
Kunga Kanga Dorji

Prof Panksepp calls the SEEKING system, the General Positive Motivation SEEKING/expectancy system. (See chart below)

Would all primary emotional response systems automatically drive associated secondary behaviors when stimulate by internal and/or external circumstances?

Not sure if I am using the right terminology in this post to explain what I am trying to ask?

I have more questions.

G

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=medium&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021236.g005

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021236

mildadhd
12-10-16, 07:34 PM
Well, it's your thread so I won't complain but you seem to have veered off the original topic yourself.

Hence, you derailed it first. So those who were interested in the OP may not be interested any more.

Just an observation from my viewpoint.

Lunacie

Because you are not interested scientifically, in how the brain works and develops, does not mean I am off topic of the opening post.

I am trying to understand what motivation is, so I can determine if ADHD is motivation problem. (See opening post)

For those members interested.

In this video, Dr. Barkley discusses examples involving the reciprocal relationship between subcortical emotional response systems that originate from the bottom up and neocortical top down emotional regulation.

Lunacie and Ginniebean, I am not of topic, it just seems as if you both just are not interested?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWjbBNe0uUc


G

ginniebean
12-10-16, 11:05 PM
I am very much interested in your posted topic. Not interestrd in shoe horning your pet alt theory into it. Nothing personal.

mildadhd
12-11-16, 12:23 AM
It was Kunga Kanga Dorji that first brought up discussion about the reciprocal relationship between the midbrain and the prefrontal cortex.



G

ginniebean
12-11-16, 12:42 PM
It was Kunga Kanga Dorji that first brought up discussion about the reciprocal relationship between the midbrain and the prefrontal cortex.



G


http://www.drthomasebrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/executive-functions-impaired-ADD-ADHD.png

http://www.drthomasebrown.com/add-adhd-model/

These are the executive functions known to impair functioning in people with adhd.

I'm going to guess and I do think rather accurately (as I am no expert) that motivation is mid brain or limbic in origin. All of the executive functions are functions of the pre-frontal cortex. Adhd is primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex.

Let's look at just one of the executive function failures. Word recall which falls under the 5th item in Dr. Browns list. Is anyone unmotivated to recall words? Absolutely not. The failure of these executive functions is happening in the area of the brain that performs these functions. That is, the pre-frontal cortex.

The brain, as much of the body can have secondary systems or pathways that can be used as an inferior to the primary pathways/systems and get the job done but not ever with the efficiency of the primary pathways. In this case the primary pathway are those executive functions found in the pre-frontal cortex.

Can one motivate oneself to retrieve words? Is this function dependent upon or somehow connected to motivation? When I am having difficulty retrieving a word the more I wish (limbic activity) to find it the further it retreats. The researchers have noted in study after study that the harder a person with ADHD tries the more difficult and next to impossible it can become to perform the task.

Is there a secondary pathway for word retrieval. That is unlikely. Language is so pre-frontal cortex dominant and other mammals do not use language.

Do some executive functions have secondary pathways, yes they do, and yes, these secondary pathways are found in the limbic area of the brain.

No matter if there are secondary pathways the failure is in the pre-frontal cortex. There's no real way of getting around that.

Even when there is a secondary pathway it is not always an effective substitute and it is generally only for short term use not the day to day use of the executive functions found within the the primary pathways because they aren't designed for the same use.
.

So when Dr. Barkley says, "it's not a problem of knowing what to do but rather doing what you know" We know how to do things, because skills learning is not impaired, We know how and what to do, the problem is the area of the brain that executes tasks fails. So a signal is sent to the part of the brain that executes various functions and the signal dies owing to the failure of the part of the brain that executes the task. Or as Barkley put it, the problem is in the 'doing' of what we know. as doing is execution.

mildadhd
12-11-16, 12:46 PM
I am very much interested in your posted topic. Not interestrd in shoe horning your pet alt theory into it. Nothing personal.

Wait a minute .

I have posted some evidence for everything I posted about, including from Dr. Barkley (example in last video I posted, about bottom up emotions and top down regulation of these emotions) to back up what I was trying express.

You say it's nothing personal, but only post/reply with no evidence about shoe horsing a pet alt theory?

Why not post about what you disagree about?

Because I have no idea what parts you agree or disagree?

Sounds like your ignoring the topics simply because your not interested, with out giving any light into what parts you are calling my pet theory, and what parts you agree with.

I have other forms of research to back up my opinion, to present, but you seem to want to make it personal, without having any conversation about anything I said specifically.

Seems like you did not like my additional response, with research to back my response, so your making it personal and derailing the discussion.

It is not my fault you are not interested.


G

ginniebean
12-11-16, 12:56 PM
Wait a minute .



You seem to want to make it personal, without having any conversation about anything I said specifically.





To be fair, conversations with you tend to be one sided as you have a habit of refusing to respond. I have long given up the notion of reciprocity. However, I saw that I had not responded as I could have to the posted topic and then decided to do so, as you can see that I responded before you posted to reprimand me. It is not personal that I do not respond to alt theories and suppositions, I have given up bothering because I find people are so emotionally attached they tend to see attack where there is genuine questioning. I may however, post something that contradicts the alt theory but get into a debate on the minutiae of alt information it's a pointless waste of time in my experience. You are not the only proponent of such so no, it's not personal. You can't very well say I'm all over your posts, I ignore the bulk of them. I am interested in the posted topic, very much so as I said earlier. And I have posted on it in your thread.

mildadhd
12-11-16, 12:59 PM
http://www.drthomasebrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/executive-functions-impaired-ADD-ADHD.png

http://www.drthomasebrown.com/add-adhd-model/

These are the executive functions known to impair functioning in people with adhd.

I'm going to guess and I do think rather accurately (as I am no expert) that motivation is mid brain or limbic in origin. All of the executive functions are functions of the pre-frontal cortex. Adhd is primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex.

Let's look at just one of the executive function failures. Word recall which falls under the 5th item in Dr. Browns list. Is anyone unmotivated to recall words? Absolutely not. The failure of these executive functions is happening in the area of the brain that performs these functions. That is, the pre-frontal cortex.

The brain, as much of the body can have secondary systems or pathways that can be used as an inferior to the primary pathways/systems and get the job done but not ever with the efficiency of the primary pathways. In this case the primary pathway are those executive functions found in the pre-frontal cortex.

Can one motivate oneself to retrieve words? Is this function dependent upon or somehow connected to motivation? When I am having difficulty retrieving a word the more I wish (limbic activity) to find it the further it retreats. The researchers have noted in study after study that the harder a person with ADHD tries the more difficult and next to impossible it can become to perform the task.

Is there a secondary pathway for word retrieval. That is unlikely. Language is so pre-frontal cortex dominant and other mammals do not use language.

Do some executive functions have secondary pathways, yes they do, and yes, these secondary pathways are found in the limbic area of the brain.

No matter if there are secondary pathways the failure is in the pre-frontal cortex. There's no real way of getting around that.

Even when there is a secondary pathway it is not always an effective substitute and it is generally only for short term use not the day to day use of the executive functions found within the the primary pathways because they aren't designed for the same use.
.

So when Dr. Barkley says, "it's not a problem of knowing what to do but rather doing what you know" We know how to do things, because skills learning is not impaired, We know how and what to do, the problem is the area of the brain that executes tasks fails. So a signal is sent to the part of the brain that executes various functions and the signal dies owing to the failure of the part of the brain that executes the task. Or as Barkley put it, the problem is in the 'doing' of what we know. as doing is execution.

I have never disagreed that development prefrontal cortex is effected, although it is not the only area of the brain involved in ADHD, right?

What I am focusing on is how do the prefrontal areas of the brain develops, or not in the first place.

To understand how self regulation develops, we must also understand the affective functions involved (preexecutive functions).

We need to look at how the whole brain matures and works, to understand how prefrontal cortex develops.

Like Kunga Kanga Dorji mentioned, the midbrain areas are more mature in early life, my point is brain does not begin to mature from the top down prefrontal cortex, but what happens from the bottom up that strongly influences the development of the prefrontal cortex affects development of the prefrontal cortex.



G

ginniebean
12-11-16, 01:14 PM
I have never disagreed that development prefrontal cortex is effected, although it is not the only area of the brain involved in ADHD, right?


Actually I think that the pre-frontal cortex is the only area of the brain affected by ADHD. However, it is not the only area involved in executive function. There is no known failures in the limbic system or the hind brain. thI could be wrong, show me with people who have done actual studies on people, and people with adhd specifically.

What I am focusing on is how do the prefrontal areas of the brain develops, or not in the first place.

I don't think you're actually doing this, you're not looking at how the brain develops and potential aberrant architectural development. You are looking at alternative hypothesis backed up by your own with that it be true.

To understand how self regulation develops, we must also understand the affective involved (preexecutive functions).

Not if the problem is one of architecture. And, understanding how how adhd interferes with this development.

We need to look at how the whole brain matures and works, to under how prefrontal cortex develops.



G

I'm really not interested in this in depth of biology, nor do I think I should have to be to understand adhd, nor do I think you are so well versed on biology that you can counter the opinions of experts who are, on the treatment of adhd and yet you do.

So apparently not having enough information is ok. By your own standards. Don't hold me to a standard you yourself cannot adhere to.

mildadhd
12-11-16, 01:21 PM
If we where trying to solve a crime, we would investigate what lead to the crime to understand what occurred after the crime.

Not just Investigate what occurred after the crime, right?




G

ginniebean
12-11-16, 01:28 PM
People are born, some without limbs, some without sight, some without hearing, some with intellectual disabilities and some with autism and adhd.

Not everything has an antecedent as in your analogy of a crime. If a person is born without a limb or without sight they are not subjected to endless naval gazing about what made this happen, or who in some cases, nature has it's failures.

I admit that conditions can have an effect on the severity of outcome and in fact I am in agreement with you on many of the things that need to happen so that people with adhd do not have to suffer needlessly. For instance, if a person with no limb is left in the care of those who are unable or are indifferent to assisting this person to live a good life, then the outcome for that person is grim. The question of how can we ensure best outcomes is an important question and deserves plenty of space.

Are we investigating the condition OR are we investigating the environment that the condition itself lives in. Mistaking the condition for the environment is a problem.

mildadhd
12-11-16, 02:32 PM
People are born, some without limbs, some without sight, some without hearing, some with intellectual disabilities and some with autism and adhd.

Not everything has an antecedent as in your analogy of a crime. If a person is born without a limb or without sight they are not subjected to endless naval gazing about what made this happen, or who in some cases, nature has it's failures.

I admit that conditions can have an effect on the severity of outcome and in fact I am in agreement with you on many of the things that need to happen so that people with adhd do not have to suffer needlessly. For instance, if a person with no limb is left in the care of those who are unable or are indifferent to assisting this person to live a good life, then the outcome for that person is grim. The question of how can we ensure best outcomes is an important question and deserves plenty of space.

Are we investigating the condition OR are we investigating the environment that the condition itself lives in. Mistaking the condition for the environment is a problem.

I am trying to figure out what motivation is, so I can figure out if a deficit of self-regulation is motivation problem?

Investigating the relationship between primary midbrain affective general positive motivation system up to the tertiary prefrontal down cognitive self-motivation, at this point in the case.

(In regards to the missing self-motivation, etc,)


G

ginniebean
12-11-16, 02:43 PM
ok but then shouldn't the topic header be "what is motivation?" I took it to be what R. barkley meant when he said his quote.

I don't understand your reasoning for your first post. it's misleading.

mildadhd
12-11-16, 03:12 PM
ok but then shouldn't the topic header be "what is motivation?" I took it to be what R. barkley meant when he said his quote.

I don't understand your reasoning for your first post. it's misleading.

Ginniebean, I agree with your investigation in regards to what happened after the crime.

But you do not include what lead up to the crime in your investigation.


G

ginniebean
12-11-16, 03:36 PM
nature just is, there is no crime. Your analogy is flawed as is your premise.

john2100
12-11-16, 05:59 PM
The ADDer reward system sees no benefit in beating any other person - and so we're not permitted (since no reward is felt) - any motivation.
We can't engage in the typical 'competitions' which when strung together - make up what is called life in this world.

Now ,this is just pure gold .


I found that even meds are just not sufficient to overcome this. That is my biggest problem.

john2100
12-11-16, 06:58 PM
If meds don't work, can self motivation with deadlines,shame,fear and consequences be harmful in the long term , to do what needs to be done?

Little Missy
12-11-16, 07:12 PM
If meds don't work, can self motivation with deadlines,shame,fear and consequences be harmful in the long term , to do what needs to be done?

Yes, but with meds.

Fuzzy12
12-11-16, 07:30 PM
If meds don't work, can self motivation with deadlines,shame,fear and consequences be harmful in the long term , to do what needs to be done?

Yes that's how I live without meds. The price I suppose is stress and anxiety...and worst of all, a lot of wasted time.

john2100
12-11-16, 07:44 PM
Yes that's how I live without meds. The price I suppose is stress and anxiety...and worst of all, a lot of wasted time.

Do you create deadlines, feel ashamed if you fail, and exaggerate the situation to create artificial fear to get you going? I 'm trying to use psychological ,internal tricks to overcome this , but I fail many times too, I have to constantly remind my self why i'm doing this,,,20times an hour ,sometimes more,,,,I can;t imagine someone can do it naturally . I dont' care about distractions , I need to solve this first. That is a true ADD problem for me.

Little Missy
12-11-16, 07:44 PM
Yes that's how I live without meds. The price I suppose is stress and anxiety...and worst of all, a lot of wasted time.

With meds it is better but it is always a work in progress. And wasted time too.

Greyhound1
12-11-16, 07:48 PM
If meds don't work, can self motivation with deadlines,shame,fear and consequences be harmful in the long term , to do what needs to be done?

Yes they can for sure. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 45. I spent the majority of my life using things like shame, fear and deadlines to motivate me and still am working on getting past it.

These thinks worked well at first without consequences. It quickly spiraled into a lot of anxiety and then on to OCD.

Using fear and shame to motivate us all the time is a really bad coping skill and I have been paying for it for most of my life. It was a very slippery slope which sent me down hill fast and totally out of control.

john2100
12-11-16, 07:51 PM
With meds it is better but it is always a work in progress. And wasted time too.

But if meds don't work ? It looks like that "broken" link between what I want to do and an execution center is not being fixed with meds.
I can execute only by cheating myself into doing something because of the consequences or shame. But it takes so much effort .

john2100
12-11-16, 07:54 PM
Yes they can for sure. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 45. I spent the majority of my life using things like shame, fear and deadlines to motivate me and still am working on getting past it.

These thinks worked well at first without consequences. It quickly spiraled into a lot of anxiety and then on to OCD.

Using fear and shame to motivate us all the time is a really bad coping skill and I have been paying for it for most of my life. It was a very slippery slope which sent me down hill fast and totally out of control.

Do you have any tricks that you can share that are better then ones I talked about?

Little Missy
12-11-16, 07:58 PM
But if meds don't work ? It looks like that "broken" link between what I want to do and an execution center is not being fixed with meds.
I can execute only by cheating myself into doing something because of the consequences or shame. But it takes so much effort .

Meds don't fix anything, they just align things to a manageable degree, sort of. I don't know how to explain it.

Little Missy
12-11-16, 08:02 PM
Yes they can for sure. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 45. I spent the majority of my life using things like shame, fear and deadlines to motivate me and still am working on getting past it.

These thinks worked well at first without consequences. It quickly spiraled into a lot of anxiety and then on to OCD.

Using fear and shame to motivate us all the time is a really bad coping skill and I have been paying for it for most of my life. It was a very slippery slope which sent me down hill fast and totally out of control.

Me too, only I was in my mid-thirties. Very, very bad way to live. I medicated myself and it eventually went to the nightmare level.

And, lo and behold, meds do work. It is not perfect and if it is, the perfection is fleeting and to be savoured for that brief time.

Basically, I do the very best that I am able to every day.

john2100
12-11-16, 08:15 PM
Meds don't fix anything, they just align things to a manageable degree, sort of. I don't know how to explain it.

I would say, meds fixed a lot of things like: motivation ,distraction, goals and task hierarchy ,but that link between what I WANT to do and execution center
was not fixed. It is like a broken computer that has all the parts but a cable between memory chip and a processor is partially unplugged and malfunctioning.

I can override this error with internal manipulation , but it takes a lot of effort. What if it is a physical anomaly in your brain that just can't be fixed with meds. Meds are apparently working somehow , but they are doing very little about this execution issue. This is the most important for me.

Greyhound1
12-11-16, 10:51 PM
Do you have any tricks that you can share that are better then ones I talked about?

Unfortunately, I haven't found any tricks. Treatment with medication for my ADHD and practicing mindfulness are the only things which have significantly helped me. Meds. have helped the most.

Its not perfect by any means but I am no longer motivated solely by fear, shame and anxiety. Now, I can also be motivated by excitement, more interest and being more in control of my emotions regarding my responsibilities.

I wish, I did have a healthy trick, I could pass along. After so many years of struggling, I am just happy for the improvement, I've experienced mainly with treatment.

john2100
12-11-16, 11:16 PM
One thing that helps a lot for me a is collaboration with someone and having that person physically around.

For whatever reason at that time I can do what I want to do , but my distractions are little worse. It almost looks like the other non ADHD person is taking over the execution and maybe it cancels whatever is blocking me .

If I could I'd have a motivated personal assistant around me 6am to 10pm that would be perfect.

Fuzzy12
12-11-16, 11:24 PM
Do you create deadlines, feel ashamed if you fail, and exaggerate the situation to create artificial fear to get you going? I 'm trying to use psychological ,internal tricks to overcome this , but I fail many times too, I have to constantly remind my self why i'm doing this,,,20times an hour ,sometimes more,,,,I can;t imagine someone can do it naturally . I dont' care about distractions , I need to solve this first. That is a true ADD problem for me.

Yes but if the deadline has been set by me it means nothing to me..unless there is an immediate and severe external.deadline it doesn't help in motivating me.

I try to scare myself as well by making myself thinking about all the negative consequences but again it only works 8f the consequences are immediate ajd fairly severe.

Often what works better it is to not think at all deeply about what I should be doing but just somehow start doing it. of course that's very difficult. But once in habituated to do something it becomes easier and doesn't always require the same initial motivation TI get je started.

What helps sometimes is to make a task either fun or very easy.

Greyhound1
12-11-16, 11:26 PM
One thing that helps a lot for me a is collaboration with someone and having that person physically around.

For whatever reason at that time I can do what I want to do , but my distractions are little worse. It almost looks like the other non ADHD person is taking over the execution and maybe it cancels whatever is blocking me .

If I could I'd have a motivated personal assistant around me 6am to 10pm that would be perfect.

That is a good point. I am very fortunate to have a wonderful wife who is highly motivated. She definitely helps to motivate me with just her energy, drive, decisiveness and enthusiasm.

It does help me being around motivated people. It seems to rub off a bit.

Fuzzy12
12-11-16, 11:35 PM
Do you create deadlines, feel ashamed if you fail, and exaggerate the situation to create artificial fear to get you going? I 'm trying to use psychological ,internal tricks to overcome this , but I fail many times too, I have to constantly remind my self why i'm doing this,,,20times an hour ,sometimes more,,,,I can;t imagine someone can do it naturally . I dont' care about distractions , I need to solve this first. That is a true ADD problem for me.

Yes but if the deadline has been set by me it means nothing to me..unless there is an immediate and severe external.deadline it doesn't help in motivating me.

I try to scare myself as well by making myself thinking about all the negative consequences but again it only works 8f the consequences are immediate ajd fairly severe.

Often what works better it is to not think at all deeply about what I should be doing but just somehow start doing it. of course that's very difficult.

What helps sometimes is to make a task either fun or very easy.

john2100
12-11-16, 11:40 PM
I dont create artificial deadlines either . I create always real one by promising someone something in writing or just call them and set it myself.
Fake deadlines really are useless.

I agree that once you start doing it, it works, but then you forget soon anyway to just keep going. What the hell is this insane freaking disorder. Perhaps being hit on a head couples of time would help.

How is no one able so solve this? Meds work little bit, but this part of ADD is as frustrating as a clinical depression or the worst phobia . What good is knowledge if you can't use it anyway.

Even Dr. Berkley's advice on this issue is not much of a help,

Kunga Dorji
12-12-16, 04:32 AM
http://www.drthomasebrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/executive-functions-impaired-ADD-ADHD.png

http://www.drthomasebrown.com/add-adhd-model/

These are the executive functions known to impair functioning in people with adhd.


This list is Dr Brown's attempt to summarise the areas of dysfunction in ADHD. From my point of view it is a very helpful list of the sort of symptoms that may show up in ADHD individuals, but it is not at all accurate to see the list as being set in stone, or as reflecting any specific localised area of dysfunction.

There is a great deal of debate in neuropsychological circles as to exactly what validity any of these "executive functions" have,how to measure them and what correlates they have in terms of brain dysfunction.

The book "ADHD as a model of brain-behaviour relationships" by Koziol and Budding is helpful here-- but it is heavy going.


I'm going to guess and I do think rather accurately (as I am no expert) that motivation is mid brain or limbic in origin. All of the executive functions are functions of the pre-frontal cortex. Adhd is primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex.
[/quote}
Much of our behaviour is automated- based upon brief assessments of the situation and upon our affective state.
(Ie the same situation will appear radically different to a depressed person vs a person in a hypomanic state.

However the model that would describe ADHD as primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex is now being seen as increasingly outdated.

Virtually all behaviours are driven by complex loops involving the cerebellum, the basal ganglia and the pre-frontal cortex.

As a rule the functioning of the PFC is slow and demanding of energy and time.
Basic brain function acts to bypass the PFC wherever possible.

A basic example here is that of riding a pushbike-- once you have learned it it becomes automated and the reproduction of that behaviour does not involve the frontal cortex at all. Learning the behaviour does, but that is a different matter.

PFC is more for behaviours that require innovation and careful weighing of options. However using the PFC involves a significant delay of several hundred milliseconds, and that delay is often hazardous.

However, most medical neurology is based upon the old "corticocentric" model of neurology that evolved when we were getting most of our neurological understanding from studying people who had had cortical strokes.

[quote]
Let's look at just one of the executive function failures. Word recall which falls under the 5th item in Dr. Browns list. Is anyone unmotivated to recall words? Absolutely not.

Correct-- and a good example.


The failure of these executive functions is happening in the area of the brain that performs these functions. That is, the pre-frontal cortex.

I'm not sure that this is as cut and dried as this- as word recall probably involves wideranging networks throughout the brain, not just PFC.
An interesting question though.



Can one motivate oneself to retrieve words? Is this function dependent upon or somehow connected to motivation? When I am having difficulty retrieving a word the more I wish (limbic activity) to find it the further it retreats. The researchers have noted in study after study that the harder a person with ADHD tries the more difficult and next to impossible it can become to perform the task.

That is a good example of motivation and outcome, but there are plenty of "Non ADHD types" who have the same experience with word recall.
I think it is pretty much a universal human experience.

Is there a secondary pathway for word retrieval. That is unlikely. Language is so pre-frontal cortex dominant and other mammals do not use language.


So when Dr. Barkley says, "it's not a problem of knowing what to do but rather doing what you know" We know how to do things, because skills learning is not impaired, We know how and what to do, the problem is the area of the brain that executes tasks fails. So a signal is sent to the part of the brain that executes various functions and the signal dies owing to the failure of the part of the brain that executes the task. Or as Barkley put it, the problem is in the 'doing' of what we know. as doing is execution.

That is an interesting quote-- but I would offer the following observation to query its accuracy.

The situation I am thinking of here could be summed up by the classic "shopping list challenge":

You know the one: you plan to go shopping- you know you will forget much of what you need, so you make a list. There is a distraction on the way to the car and you find yourself at the supermarket with your list at home.

My point here is this-- is this a failure of the list maintenance program-- or is it a matter of that program being overwhelmed by other events going on at the same time (like being told by one's significant other" not to forget the list?

Actually, I don't know the answer to this question, and I am posing it to stimulate thought and debate. I am,however, continually intrigued by people who never lose track, and I don't think that my losing track is a matter of poor motivation.

john2100
12-12-16, 07:06 AM
Now that we know the reason why we can't, how are we gonna use that info to actually overcome this and do it anyway. There must be a way,trick,process to do this.

Fuzzy12
12-12-16, 07:56 AM
One thing that helps a lot for me a is collaboration with someone and having that person physically around.

For whatever reason at that time I can do what I want to do , but my distractions are little worse. It almost looks like the other non ADHD person is taking over the execution and maybe it cancels whatever is blocking me .

If I could I'd have a motivated personal assistant around me 6am to 10pm that would be perfect.

For me that sort of works as well because I feel more accountabe and I guess I don't want to look like a slacker. That's a powerful motivator. ..driven by shame again at least for me but it isn't always acutely stressful. .

Lunacie
12-12-16, 11:37 AM
This list is Dr Brown's attempt to summarise the areas of dysfunction in ADHD. From my point of view it is a very helpful list of the sort of symptoms that may show up in ADHD individuals, but it is not at all accurate to see the list as being set in stone, or as reflecting any specific localised area of dysfunction.

There is a great deal of debate in neuropsychological circles as to exactly what validity any of these "executive functions" have,how to measure them and what correlates they have in terms of brain dysfunction.

The book "ADHD as a model of brain-behaviour relationships" by Koziol and Budding is helpful here-- but it is heavy going.


I'm going to guess and I do think rather accurately (as I am no expert) that motivation is mid brain or limbic in origin. All of the executive functions are functions of the pre-frontal cortex. Adhd is primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex.


Much of our behaviour is automated- based upon brief assessments of the situation and upon our affective state.
(Ie the same situation will appear radically different to a depressed person vs a person in a hypomanic state.

However the model that would describe ADHD as primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex is now being seen as increasingly outdated.

Virtually all behaviours are driven by complex loops involving the cerebellum, the basal ganglia and the pre-frontal cortex.

As a rule the functioning of the PFC is slow and demanding of energy and time.
Basic brain function acts to bypass the PFC wherever possible.

A basic example here is that of riding a pushbike-- once you have learned it it becomes automated and the reproduction of that behaviour does not involve the frontal cortex at all. Learning the behaviour does, but that is a different matter.

PFC is more for behaviours that require innovation and careful weighing of options. However using the PFC involves a significant delay of several hundred milliseconds, and that delay is often hazardous.

However, most medical neurology is based upon the old "corticocentric" model of neurology that evolved when we were getting most of our neurological understanding from studying people who had had cortical strokes.


Correct-- and a good example.


I'm not sure that this is as cut and dried as this- as word recall probably involves wideranging networks throughout the brain, not just PFC.
An interesting question though.



That is a good example of motivation and outcome, but there are plenty of "Non ADHD types" who have the same experience with word recall.
I think it is pretty much a universal human experience.

Is there a secondary pathway for word retrieval. That is unlikely. Language is so pre-frontal cortex dominant and other mammals do not use language.



That is an interesting quote-- but I would offer the following observation to query its accuracy.

The situation I am thinking of here could be summed up by the classic "shopping list challenge":

You know the one: you plan to go shopping- you know you will forget much of what you need, so you make a list. There is a distraction on the way to the car and you find yourself at the supermarket with your list at home.

My point here is this-- is this a failure of the list maintenance program-- or is it a matter of that program being overwhelmed by other events going on at the same time (like being told by one's significant other" not to forget the list?

Actually, I don't know the answer to this question, and I am posing it to stimulate thought and debate. I am,however, continually intrigued by people who never lose track, and I don't think that my losing track is a matter of poor motivation.

I've read that the neural networks between portions of the brain are impaired in adhd.

That would indicate that it's not just a problem with the prefrontal cortex being
underdeveloped or having delayed maturation.

If you have an amazing processor in your computer but are still using a dial-up server
the computer will still run slow and lose the connection too often. If that makes sense.

ginniebean
12-12-16, 12:24 PM
This list is Dr Brown's attempt to summarise the areas of dysfunction in ADHD. From my point of view it is a very helpful list of the sort of symptoms that may show up in ADHD individuals, but it is not at all accurate to see the list as being set in stone, or as reflecting any specific localised area of dysfunction.

I most certainly did not suggest that Dr. Brown's list was exhaustive in fact it is in brief. If, as you suggest, I have listed them as set in stone you're wrong. What I have said is that the deficits of adhd are primarily if not exvlusively pre-frontal cortex in origin. This can be witneased by those with TBI who due to brain damage in the pfc exhibit the exact same deficits.



There is a great deal of debate in neuropsychological circles as to exactly what validity any of these "executive functions" have,how to measure them and what correlates they have in terms of brain dysfunction.

anybody can make a claim that there is "great" debate. We have great debate over whether Adhd exists or not by people who don't know a thing about adhd. We have all sorts of alt practioners and theorists who while not even having read the prevailing literature nor done competing research anywhere near the scale if what has been done. If at all.


The book "ADHD as a model of brain-behaviour relationships" by Koziol and Budding is helpful here-- but it is heavy going.

I have no access to this book, I will not be intimidated by a hefty sounding name. If these individuala have done large scale douvle blind studies on people with adhd with controls. Wht would you post this other than to intimidate me to silence? Why not state up front that you also are a promoter and believer in alt med hypothesis? Does this book seriosuly challenge the reigning theory or is it noise which could signify nothing or in a hundred years might signify something?


I'm going to guess and I do think rather accurately (as I am no expert) that motivation is mid brain or limbic in origin. All of the executive functions are functions of the pre-frontal cortex. Adhd is primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex.






However the model that would describe ADHD as primarily a failure in the pre-frontal cortex is now being seen as increasingly outdated.

By whom? Have there been published works peer reviewed that offer a competing theory of thw robustness of that which we have now? Let me answer for you. nope nope nopity nope. What we have are gut biome fancy sounding stuff by a woman from russia who's credentials can not even be verified. we have people studying the brain but have not studied people with adhd, we even have references to those who don't study people at all but in stead are veterinarians challenging this accepted robust model of adhd. To say that any model is about to overturn the one we have now is simply not true. I would welcome such an occaision.



Virtually all behaviours are driven by complex loops involving the cerebellum, the basal ganglia and the pre-frontal cortex.

As a rule the functioning of the PFC is slow and demanding of energy and time.
Basic brain function acts to bypass the PFC wherever possible.

There is no arguement of gow behavioura are driven but of the pfc is malfunctioning what does it do to the loop?

This lower speed time (thinking) may be true for many functions but the PRIMARY pathway for the specific executive fumctions that create adhd are in the pfc and are the most efficient pathways for such tasks as evidenced by how difficuly it os for people with adhd. Executive functions are not thought they execute an action in conjunction with thought. My guess is they are speedier than thought.



A basic example here is that of riding a pushbike-- once you have learned it it becomes automated and the reproduction of that behaviour does not involve the frontal cortex at all. Learning the behaviour does, but that is a different matter.

PFC is more for behaviours that require innovation and careful weighing of options. However using the PFC involves a significant delay of several hundred milliseconds, and that delay is often hazardous.

I specifically stated that skills learning is not affected by adhd. We know how to do stuff.

The PFC has this delay in all humans it says nothing about people with adhd. Nor does it say anything about abnormal brain functioning in the pfc and it's results in human functioning.





I'm not sure that this is as cut and dried as this- as word recall probably involves wideranging networks throughout the brain, not just PFC.
An interesting question though.

This might be true however, once again, to look at those with TBI brain damage solely in the pfc causes this problem. One of the problems of a myopic focus on motive alone is it leads to the same "gut moralizing" and looking for the "criminal" responsible.



That is a good example of motivation and outcome, but there are plenty of "Non ADHD types" who have the same experience with word recall.
I think it is pretty much a universal human experience.

Is there a secondary pathway for word retrieval. That is unlikely. Language is so pre-frontal cortex dominant and other mammals do not use language.



That is an interesting quote-- but I would offer the following observation to query its accuracy.

The situation I am thinking of here could be summed up by the classic "shopping list challenge":

You know the one: you plan to go shopping- you know you will forget much of what you need, so you make a list. There is a distraction on the way to the car and you find yourself at the supermarket with your list at home.

My point here is this-- is this a failure of the list maintenance program-- or is it a matter of that program being overwhelmed by other events going on at the same time (like being told by one's significant other" not to forget the list?

Actually, I don't know the answer to this question, and I am posing it to stimulate thought and debate. I am,however, continually intrigued by people who never lose track, and I don't think that my losing track is a matter of poor motivation.

The neuro typical experience all the same executive failures as those with adhd. It has been shown over and over that it is the degree of failure that defines disorder.

I think we can safely say that the failure is internal and not external in the list. To summarize, until there is credible, sound, robust information that actually is a competing theory to executive function failure in the pfc it is pure bull ****e to suggest there are. Fringe theories don't compete, they are just full of sound and fury taking up time and space and are used to confuse.

Good to see you again A.

ginniebean
12-12-16, 12:26 PM
i apologise for the load of mistakes i responsed on my pgone on my break at work. Sorry.

aeon
12-12-16, 12:52 PM
Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?

To my sense, and in my experience, it’s an anhedonia problem, a desire problem, a motivation problem, an initiation problem, a values problem, a hierarchy of worth problem, a remembering problem, an avoidance of fear problem, a want for comfort problem, a learned helplessness problem, a shame problem, a learned behavior problem, a resources problem, a time blindness problem, a daydreaming problem, and at least a couple dozen more problems that shall go unnamed.

I know of only two things that help with this...positive relationships with other people, and medication.


Cheers,
Ian

aeon
12-12-16, 01:56 PM
I know of only two things that help with this...positive relationships with other people, and medication.

:doh:

I forgot the one other thing, so three things total. Music. Ever-loving, sweet, sweet music.


Cheers,
Ian

Kunga Dorji
12-13-16, 03:48 AM
I most certainly did not suggest that Dr. Brown's list was exhaustive in fact it is in brief. If, as you suggest, I have listed them as set in stone you're wrong. What I have said is that the deficits of adhd are primarily if not exvlusively pre-frontal cortex in origin. This can be witneased by those with TBI who due to brain damage in the pfc exhibit the exact same deficits.




anybody can make a claim that there is "great" debate. We have great debate over whether Adhd exists or not by people who don't know a thing about adhd. We have all sorts of alt practioners and theorists who while not even having read the prevailing literature nor done competing research anywhere near the scale if what has been done. If at all.



I have no access to this book, I will not be intimidated by a hefty sounding name. If these individuala have done large scale douvle blind studies on people with adhd with controls. Wht would you post this other than to intimidate me to silence? Why not state up front that you also are a promoter and believer in alt med hypothesis? Does this book seriosuly challenge the reigning theory or is it noise which could signify nothing or in a hundred years might signify something?





By whom? Have there been published works peer reviewed that offer a competing theory of thw robustness of that which we have now? Let me answer for you. nope nope nopity nope. What we have are gut biome fancy sounding stuff by a woman from russia who's credentials can not even be verified. we have people studying the brain but have not studied people with adhd, we even have references to those who don't study people at all but in stead are veterinarians challenging this accepted robust model of adhd. To say that any model is about to overturn the one we have now is simply not true. I would welcome such an occaision.




There is no arguement of gow behavioura are driven but of the pfc is malfunctioning what does it do to the loop?

This lower speed time (thinking) may be true for many functions but the PRIMARY pathway for the specific executive fumctions that create adhd are in the pfc and are the most efficient pathways for such tasks as evidenced by how difficuly it os for people with adhd. Executive functions are not thought they execute an action in conjunction with thought. My guess is they are speedier than thought.



I specifically stated that skills learning is not affected by adhd. We know how to do stuff.

The PFC has this delay in all humans it says nothing about people with adhd. Nor does it say anything about abnormal brain functioning in the pfc and it's results in human functioning.





This might be true however, once again, to look at those with TBI brain damage solely in the pfc causes this problem. One of the problems of a myopic focus on motive alone is it leads to the same "gut moralizing" and looking for the "criminal" responsible.




The neuro typical experience all the same executive failures as those with adhd. It has been shown over and over that it is the degree of failure that defines disorder.

I think we can safely say that the failure is internal and not external in the list. To summarize, until there is credible, sound, robust information that actually is a competing theory to executive function failure in the pfc it is pure bull ****e to suggest there are. Fringe theories don't compete, they are just full of sound and fury taking up time and space and are used to confuse.

Good to see you again A.

Hi Ginniebean,
you make a lot of points in your comments and there is a danger that if I respond to all of them something may get lost in the mix.

However the book I referenced is not obscure or hard to get.

"ADHD as a model of brain behaviour relationships"
and a related book
" Subcortical Structures and Cognition" are available as Kindle books for a reasonable fee.

So they are not inaccessable.

I am concerned that your comments seem to see this as some sort of competition or expression of hostility.

It is nothing of the sort. We both have ADHD, and, I suspect, neither of us is especially impressed with the outcomes of treatment as offered to us.
( Yes, the stimulants are of some benefit, but far from being really impressive).

However, the current treatment options have arisen essentially by trial and error, and the current theories of brain function and psychopharmacology have been retrofitted to explain the phenomena that have been found through trial and error.

What I am suggesting here is that the current "corticocentric theories" not only have dubious validity, but they are actually a barrier to making further progress in understanding and relieving our problems.

I have just though of a further source that might be of value-- and that is the Wikipedia entry on "Cerebellar Cognitive Affective Syndrome":


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome

This syndrome, described by Dr. Jeremy Schmahmann and his colleagues refers to a constellation of deficits in the cognitive domains of executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_functions), spatial cognition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_cognition), language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language), and affect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_%28psychology%29) resulting from damage to the cerebellum.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated1-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated7-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated6-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated8-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated9-6) Impairments of executive function include problems with planning, set-shifting, abstract reasoning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction), verbal fluency, and working memory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory), and there is often perseveration, distractibility and inattention. Language problems include dysprosodia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysprosody), agrammatism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrammatism) and mild anomia. Deficits in spatial cognition produce visual–spatial disorganization and impaired visual–spatial memory. Personality changes manifest as blunting of affect or disinhibited and inappropriate behavior.
[/quote]

(Note that presentations vary from individual to individual- and most will not have symptoms in all areas listed above).

Now for relevance to ADHD:



Psychiatric Disorders

There are a number of psychiatric disorders that are thought to be related to dysfunction of the cerebellum and that appear similar to symptoms of CCAS.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated6-4) It has been suggested that lesions in the cerebellum may be responsible for certain characteristics of psychiatric disorders, such as schizophrenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia), autism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism), depression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_%28mood%29), bipolar disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder), attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder), developmental dyslexia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia), Down syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome), and Fragile X syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragile_X_syndrome).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated6-4)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated9-6)[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated5-20)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-21) Schmahmann’s dysmetria of thought hypothesis has been applied to these psychiatric disorders. In schizophrenia, it has been suggested that there is dysfunction of the cortical-thalamo-cerebellar circuit, which leads to problems with emotional behaviors and cognition.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-22) Supporting this idea are postmortem studies that have shown smaller anterior portions of the vermis[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-23) and reduced density of the Purkinje cells in the vermis in schizophrenia.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated3-24) There are several pieces of evidence that support the hypothesis that symptoms of some psychiatric disorders are the result of cerebellar dysfunction. One study found that people with schizophrenia had smaller inferior vermis and less cerebellar hemispheric asymmetry than control adults.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated3-24) It has also been found that individuals with ADHD have smaller posterior inferior lobes than a control group.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-25) Other studies have suggested that the size of the vermis is correlated with the severity of ADHD. A study of people with dyslexia showed lower activation via positron emission tomography (PET) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission_tomography) in the cerebellum during a motor task relative to a control group.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-26) It may be possible to further understand the pathology of these psychiatric disorders by studying CCAS


That's an interesting list and it could well explain the overlap between conditions like ADHD and Bipolar, not to mention dyslexia and dyspraxia.

Anyhow- all of these may be seen as a "cerebral cortex" problem-- if your view is confined to seeing things from the perspective of the cerebral cortex.

ginniebean
12-13-16, 01:47 PM
Hi Ginniebean,
you make a lot of points in your comments and there is a danger that if I respond to all of them something may get lost in the mix.

I have no objection to you changing the format if that's what suits you best. For me, I find the small quote feature helps me stay focused on what the person said.



However the book I referenced is not obscure or hard to get.

"ADHD as a model of brain behaviour relationships"
and a related book
" Subcortical Structures and Cognition" are available as Kindle books for a reasonable fee.

So they are not inaccessable.You're absolutely right, tell me something, IN a topic about "what did Dr Barkley mean..." do I need to read a book in order to respond? A book not on this topic? I have asked you does this book MEET even the minimum standards for adhd research, is this book about adhd? Has the writer of this book studied people with adhd? OR is it yet another book to confuse the conversation in order to refute/minimize/obfuscate/shut down/ any conversation about the ACTUAL research on adhd and statements made dependent upon such research, ( such as the quote listed in the first post)



I am concerned that your comments seem to see this as some sort of competition or expression of hostility.I wrote back to you privately to assure you that I have an aggressive style, maybe I've been gone so long you've forgot. I am aggressively calling out the alt bafflegab that seeks to undermine EVERY SINGLE topic to do with the standard research on adhd for the past three years. I have started my own topics to see them derailed by yet more bafflegab, I have complained about the derails and had to deal with the whining of the poor oppressed alt promoters (more than one). I do believe there has been some changes but perhaps I'm overly sensitive as a possibility not admitting to anything here.

It is nothing of the sort. We both have ADHD, and, I suspect, neither of us is especially impressed with the outcomes of treatment as offered to us.
( Yes, the stimulants are of some benefit, but far from being really impressive).The reigning theory about adhd will be challenged as yet it has not been successfully. I look forward to that day. SO FAR, you got nothing to successfully challenge it.


Wait a cotton picking minute, the research on stimulant treatment is damned impressive!!! The documented improvement in people's lives is impressive! This is what I call the problem and call ********. This insinuation , that oh, the standard research of which there is TONS, is brushed aside with sly diminishing little comments like "far from being really impressive".

Followed up with who knows what?? a book few will or maybe can read WITHOUT MEDICATION??? omg! A book that might or might not be about adhd research? the topic of the conversation?

For pointing out the obfuscations/word salading/dishonesty/double standards I have been painted as some sort of cult member of the establishment. It is highly inconvenient of the alt proponents to have reality injected into their ever so loving and feeling narratives where everyone can suck on the teat of the earth mother. And the thing is I don't even bother anymore. I try my damnedest to respond only to topics that I'm interested. I'm not playing 'fact checker' anymore. I leave the alt topics alone. I think my record of posting clearly shows this.



Here's the thing, I think alt ideas can be fun, they can be an interesting conversation. Supplanting, or contradicting every conversation about standard research with bafflegab every conversation? with no actual evidence? going on gut feeling? for yourself no problem. People are suggesting and contradicting accepted treatment practices, with nothing more to go on than an emotional hunch. Alt proponents derailing every topic on standard research having to rush in and cast doubt? EVERY TIME??? yet, expecting anyone who call them on their lack of research mean, bullying, rude and hostile.. ugh.

I swear the cognitive dissonance is astounding.

However, the current treatment options have arisen essentially by trial and error, and the current theories of brain function and psychopharmacology have been retrofitted to explain the phenomena that have been found through trial and error.By trial and error and because they actually have been shown very rigourously to work. Medication for ADHD has saved lives. Full stop, any argument here is intellectually dishonest. Real people's lives are at stake.



What I am suggesting here is that the current "corticocentric theories" not only have dubious validity, but they are actually a barrier to making further progress in understanding and relieving our problems.Dubious validity? ok, I'll bite, tell me how much LESS dubious alt hypothesis is?

This is an intellectually dishonest statement.


And once an alternative theory achieves the robustness of the prevailing theoretical model I'll be happy to give it equal time, hell at this point I'd be happy for equal time to be given to the standard. The barrier for alt theories has nothing to do with the standard theory getting in the way, it's the lack of research, the lack of facts, the lack of long term studies and often the lack of adhd. No people with adhd tested, not even discussing people with adhd. You can't seriously be blaming the researchers for having researched a theory.

I have just though of a further source that might be of value-- and that is the Wikipedia entry on "Cerebellar Cognitive Affective Syndrome":


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome

This syndrome, described by Dr. Jeremy Schmahmann and his colleagues refers to a constellation of deficits in the cognitive domains of executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_functions), spatial cognition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_cognition), language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language), and affect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_%28psychology%29) resulting from damage to the cerebellum.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated1-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated7-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated6-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated8-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellar_cognitive_affective_syndrome#cite_note-autogenerated9-6) Impairments of executive function include problems with planning, set-shifting, abstract reasoning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction), verbal fluency, and working memory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory), and there is often perseveration, distractibility and inattention. Language problems include dysprosodia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysprosody), agrammatism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrammatism) and mild anomia. Deficits in spatial cognition produce visual–spatial disorganization and impaired visual–spatial memory. Personality changes manifest as blunting of affect or disinhibited and inappropriate behavior. (Note that presentations vary from individual to individual- and most will not have symptoms in all areas listed above).

The question I have is why do I even need to say any of this?

Now for relevance to ADHD:

And when they've done research on people who have this adhd like condition, which might in fact be reinventing the wheel, and made effective treatment options I'll be HAPPY to discuss them, what I won't do is insult the actual research or the validity of it's discussion on an adhd support forum by giving equivalence to a hypothesis over an actual theory with effective treatment options.


That's an interesting list and it could well explain the overlap between conditions like ADHD and Bipolar, not to mention dyslexia and dyspraxia.

Anyhow- all of these may be seen as a "cerebral cortex" problem-- if your view is confined to seeing things from the perspective of the cerebral cortex.
If the topic of this post was some alt idea I would not be in here, the topic of this post is 'what does R. Barkley mean when he says ..." It is pretty evident that R. Barkley played a big role in the standard researched model of adhd, and yet.. I'm told I'm off topic and derailing for not being interested in alt bafflegab that R. Barkly certainly would not entertain as something he would mean.

Please know that I like you, I enjoy our arguments, and that I am not going after you with pitchfork and fire. Just me being me, no malice intended.

Although I admit my comments might sting a bit if you're overly invested in emotional attachment to your ideas.


What do you think R. Barkley meant when he said.... the quote above?


Which my short term memory won't allow me to quote accurately.

I am sincerely interested.

SB_UK
12-14-16, 05:55 AM
:doh:
I know of only two things that help with this...positive relationships with other people, and medication.I forgot the one other thing, so three things total. Music. Ever-loving, sweet, sweet music.


Cheers,
Ian

music ------------------->
positive relationships --> {medication} -> beneficial outcome
------------------------->


sensory ----------------->
empathizing -------------> {reward system activation} -> beneficial outcome
------------------------->

sensory ----------------->
empathizing* ------------> {reward system activation} -> beneficial outcome
systematizing** --------->

Systematizing** -- generating a rational mind which supports empathizing* - because it's hard to have a 'positive relationship with other people' unless we've a rational/moral mind - the problem being - how're we to know how to behave if we've all manner of nonsense decorating our minds.

mildadhd
12-14-16, 11:40 PM
nature just is, there is no crime. Your analogy is flawed as is your premise.

Flawed.

There is no meat cleaver separating parts of our brains' either, right?

Nature and nurture, not just nature or just nurture, right?

Environment and genes, not just environment or just genes, right?

Emotion and cognition, not just emotions or just cognition, right?






G

peripatetic
12-15-16, 12:12 PM
What is your take on the quote below?



Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?




G

i think it's saying it's not a knowledge problem; it's an executing problem. so it's not that you don't know, it's that being able to incorporate what you know successfully into action is the problem.

ginniebean
12-15-16, 12:18 PM
Flawed.

There is no meat cleaver separating parts of our brains' either, right?

Nature and nurture, not just nature or just nurture, right?

Environment and genes, not just environment or just genes, right?

Emotion and cognition, not just emotions or just cognition, right?



i do not believe that adhd is caused by nuture but nurture affects severity.

The meat cleaver is a poor analogy but Barkley isn't basing his research on it nor his premise is he?

Yes, environment are involved in adhd

Both cognition and emotion are involved in adhd. Reading your stream of posts one would think cognitive function is a bit player.

Anyway, what do you think Barkley meant with his quote? do you think he was basing it in his and others research? Do you have alternative reaeaechers who have researched people who have adhd with an equivalent theory?

I don't expect the respect of an answer, I gave up long ago.

john2100
12-15-16, 06:37 PM
We are screwed basically , if experts can't even agree on how adhd brain really works or why it works the way it does. We are still only in a theoretical phase. How in the world are we gonna move to practical phase which will offer some bullet proof solution . Meds do work somewhat, but there has to be a better way then stimulants. It just sound too crude of a treatment .

john2100
12-15-16, 06:44 PM
To my sense, and in my experience, it’s an anhedonia problem, a desire problem, a motivation problem, an initiation problem, a values problem, a hierarchy of worth problem, a remembering problem, an avoidance of fear problem, a want for comfort problem, a learned helplessness problem, a shame problem, a learned behavior problem, a resources problem, a time blindness problem, a daydreaming problem, and at least a couple dozen more problems that shall go unnamed.

That is an a spot on summary. But how could we fix each of those listed problems.
Anytime we try , we tend to forget what we promised to our self , then we have to be reminded again , it just keeps being lost somewhere in the brain.

Deadline works, shame works sometimes , consequences work only sometimes,

aeon
12-15-16, 07:45 PM
That is an a spot on summary. But how could we fix each of those listed problems.

Thanks, and I will list below in terms of how I addressed these issues.

“Fix” is too declarative a word, inasmuch as I am a human being, and so I am a work in progress, always, and I will err, always.


anhedonia problem - meds, exercise, social engagement
desire problem - meds, goal-setting, introspection, accountability
motivation problem - meds, self-acceptance, goal-awareness, accountability
initiation problem - meds, introspection, new learned behaviors
values problem - therapy, introspection
hierarchy of worth problem - therapy, introspection
remembering problem - meds, lists (paper/phone), consistent place for things
avoidance of fear problem - therapy, introspection, exposure, mindfulness
want for comfort problem - not a problem to be addressed if others balance
learned helplessness problem - therapy, introspection, learning resources, mindfulness
shame problem - therapy, introspection, social engagement, learning resources, mindfulness
learned behavior problem - introspection, midfulness
resources problem - making different choices, goal-setting, goal-awareness
time blindness problem - meds, tools (watch, phone, stopwatch, alarms)
daydreaming problem - meds, mindfulness



Thanks,
Ian

john2100
12-15-16, 08:32 PM
Nice summary, I finally start to understand that distraction and focus is not such a big issue for me. It is this irrational inaction that even meds can't fix.

15 yrs ago a had a collectible item worth about $15,000. I knew a lot about investing and I wanted to invest into stock market . All I had to do is take it to the auction house or a dealer and sell it. I had it apprised , they would call me from time to time. I never sold it,until recently getting only $2,500 for it.

I knew I had a valuable item, I knew what to do with the money, I knew how to sell it. Every year it was on my list. 1 hour of total work. I couldn't understand this why I couldn't act. Now I can understand it better, but acting on it is still so difficult.

Then I would do something stupid like this . I would spend 3 days working on ma car, trying to save $1000 on a car repair. I lost from work $600 , so I saved only $400.
That makes absolutely no freaking sense. Even then , It didn't make sense. Even now I have idea how in the world I would justify that stupid irrational behavior.

You talk a lot about therapy , do you have someone, if so , how many have you tried before you finally find someone who was any good.

How many people with ADHD as a general % do you think have this problem?
This looks like a number one issue, because many adhd can focus but on stupid things, like fixing a car for 3 days so save $400 and have $15K sitting on a shelf.

Thanks,

john2100
12-15-16, 08:45 PM
It almost looks like having a management and communication problem between 2 departments.
I know what to do , I had the correct solution and I still agree to this day, It was a correct solution . If I had someone around , I would just tell them and they would push me to do it. But I knew what to do ,so I sent the info into "executive" part of the brain , and what came out? Fix your car ....... How in the world is that even possible. And even while laying under the car, I was saying to myself , how did I end- up here, as soon as I'm done , I selling that stupid collection.

john2100
12-15-16, 09:07 PM
Aeon , Did you make the list or is it from a book or other resource? Thanks.

aeon
12-15-16, 09:32 PM
Nice summary

Thank you.

You talk a lot about therapy , do you have someone, if so , how many have you tried before you finally find someone who was any good.

Not currently, and the number...hmm...a dozen, over the years? And I’m not so sure I ever found someone who was any good for me, but I got a little something from each.

How many people with ADHD as a general % do you think have this problem?

I have no idea, and I would not even hazard a guess.

I think the umbrella of “ADHD” covers a lot of causes, presentations, responses to medication, etc. In that spirit, I think the number of, nature of, and efficacy of treatment for each problem on a person’s list would tend to vary wildly, especially once you started introducing comorbids to what was considered.

Aeon , Did you make the list or is it from a book or other resource? Thanks.

I made it myself, thanks.


Cheers,
Ian

ginniebean
12-16-16, 12:55 AM
We are screwed basically , if experts can't even agree on how adhd brain really works or why it works the way it does. We are still only in a theoretical phase. How in the world are we gonna move to practical phase which will offer some bullet proof solution . Meds do work somewhat, but there has to be a better way then stimulants. It just sound too crude of a treatment .

Experts on adhd do agree, alt practioners will tell you to doubt this and buy this book or that book casting doubt on research that is impeccable. it's gut biome.. No research on adhd patients, it's diet, severely flawed and discredited studies. it's some veterinarian, again no studies on people with adhd. It is absolutely disenhearteni g and does make people feel screwed, like the experts no nothing. Except it's not true. just a whole lot of chatter usually from people with something to sell, or people with an anti-mental health agenda.

Sadly, this does affect us, causing loss of confidence in research, self doubt and self blame, increased anxiety and depression. it is stressful beung expected to debunk reams and reams of alt hypothesis and snakw oil salesmen. It's unfair and just sad.
.Please don't lose heart

ginniebean
12-16-16, 12:57 AM
That is an a spot on summary. But how could we fix each of those listed problems.
Anytime we try , we tend to forget what we promised to our self , then we have to be reminded again , it just keeps being lost somewhere in the brain.

Deadline works, shame works sometimes , consequences work only sometimes,

learnung about our condition helps greatly, demandinh to manage your own condition in a way that's best for you, demandinh the medical professiin act like professionals. There is a lot of hope.

SB_UK
12-16-16, 03:27 AM
Thanks, and I will list below in terms of how I addressed these issues.

“Fix” is too declarative a word, inasmuch as I am a human being, and so I am a work in progress, always, and I will err, always.


anhedonia problem - meds, exercise, social engagement
desire problem - meds, goal-setting, introspection, accountability
motivation problem - meds, self-acceptance, goal-awareness, accountability
initiation problem - meds, introspection, new learned behaviors
values problem - therapy, introspection
hierarchy of worth problem - therapy, introspection
remembering problem - meds, lists (paper/phone), consistent place for things
avoidance of fear problem - therapy, introspection, exposure, mindfulness
want for comfort problem - not a problem to be addressed if others balance
learned helplessness problem - therapy, introspection, learning resources, mindfulness
shame problem - therapy, introspection, social engagement, learning resources, mindfulness
learned behavior problem - introspection, midfulness
resources problem - making different choices, goal-setting, goal-awareness
time blindness problem - meds, tools (watch, phone, stopwatch, alarms)
daydreaming problem - meds, mindfulness



Thanks,
Ian


Not wanting to do what you're told to do (the first few)
Wanting to do something else (the last two)

What's the trick ?
To see that the vast majority of things that people (nonADDers) do hangs off a reward system which we do not have.

Thing is - is the nonADDer reward system better than the ADDer reward system ?

Is it good to be able to motivate oneself for money regardless of the harm that is caused ?

Or is it better to be able to sit quietly in a field ?

'All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.'
-- Blaise Pascal

SB_UK
12-16-16, 03:37 AM
If we look at the post counts for people posting here - it's obvious that 'focus' can be maintained.
So - what's the difference between being able to write here and write elsewhere.

Here - you choose where to post and what to post.

Nobody tells you where to post, what to post, how to post, when to post under threat of non-payment of mortgage.

Simply then - if ADDers don't operate under co-ercion - the carrot and stick of money - then we need voluntaryism - and we'll then find that natural motivation expresses itself through worthwhile ventures, instead of as currently - where I could argue that no workplace task (though a few will continue to exist in Global voluntaryism) - is useful.

Why no ? Because it's 'your motivation' which matters - and it has to be 'right' ie feeding your kids junk food because you think it's right isn't 'right motivation'.

sarahsweets
12-16-16, 03:57 AM
We are screwed basically , if experts can't even agree on how adhd brain really works or why it works the way it does. We are still only in a theoretical phase. How in the world are we gonna move to practical phase which will offer some bullet proof solution . Meds do work somewhat, but there has to be a better way then stimulants. It just sound too crude of a treatment .

The experts certainly do know a lot about how the brain works. Sure, we dont know it all but when it comes to adhd, we know quite a bit. Stimulants are a first line treatment for adhd because they work, and because they work by helping our brains to run the right way. It doesnt sound crude at all to me to think that treatment for a brain disorder involves drugs that work by targeting the parts of the brain that need correcting.

Lunacie
12-16-16, 12:09 PM
This thread has been very interesting. Lots of information shared, and different
perspectives offered. A great chance to look at our lives from a new viewpoint.

john2100
12-16-16, 03:06 PM
Aeon list is really something else , at least to me it looks like it could change my life. I started yesterday on implementation and I'm doing a lot of thinking and analyzing about my life and why did what I did. Looking back it starts to make more and more sense.
Keeping up with it ,however will be a challenge.

mildadhd
12-16-16, 03:57 PM
My take is..

I think Dr. Barkley is saying, it is not a problem with the unconditioned primary emotional-affective motivations and conditioned secondary learning and memories, but it is a problem with tertiary self-motivation.

I think, it is not a problem with the unconditioned primary emotional-affective motivations, but it is a problem with (implicit) conditioned secondary learning and memories and tertiary self-motivation.

(Otherwise consistently distressful experiences (internal and/or external) would not make it worse.)


G

aeon
12-16-16, 03:58 PM
Aeon list is really something else , at least to me it looks like it could change my life. I started yesterday on implementation and I'm doing a lot of thinking and analyzing about my life and why did what I did. Looking back it starts to make more and more sense.
Keeping up with it ,however will be a challenge.

Thanks for that, and I’d be humbled to know it was any help for you.

Please understand that list is a summation of things over the years, and not all of it was worked on at once, and over time there was progress, stasis, regression, and then progress again, oftentimes some influencing others, and for sure, progress on some were necessary to work on others.

It’s easy for me to look back and make a list, but at the time of doing it, I didn’t know what I needed to do, or that it would end up a list...I worked on what I could as some crisis, external or internal, presented itself.

And for sure, I didn’t list the paths that were of no benefit, despite being traveled down. For example, my choice to be chemically altered and intoxicated for nearly a third of my life delayed and prevented growth and development across a number of those things in the list.

That it was the best I could do at the time to deal with the sequelae of chronic trauma in childhood is understandable, and I forgive myself for that choice. On the other hand, had I experienced good counsel earlier, through positive relationships, whether therapist, friend, or beloved, the developmental narrative, list, and outcome to this point would likely be very different.

Not that I would change anything, mind you, even if the opportunity were presented to me.


Thanks,
Ian

john2100
12-16-16, 04:21 PM
My take is..

I think Dr. Barkley is saying, it is not a problem with the unconditioned primary emotional-affective motivations and conditioned secondary learning and memories, but it is a problem with tertiary self-motivation.

I think, it is not a problem with the unconditioned primary emotional-affective motivations, but it is a problem with (implicit) conditioned secondary learning and memories and tertiary self-motivation.

(Otherwise consistently distressful experiences (internal and/or external) would not make it worse.)


G


Could you please explain , what it means with in simple English?
thanks

mildadhd
12-17-16, 01:34 AM
Could you please explain , what it means with in simple English?
thanks


Consistently conflicting internal and/or external preverbal experiences, stimulate lower negative feeling emotional action systems, interfering with neurodevelopment of the higher self-motivation system, resulting in slight deficits of cognitive self-motivation and in slight surpluses of the motivations of the affective emotional action systems.

(Specifics depend partly on sensitivity/reactivity of individual temperament and individual circumstances)


G

mildadhd
12-17-16, 02:48 AM
What if our anterior cingulates' experienced less consistent preverbal emotional conflict and/or less consistent preverbal sensory conflict?


G

mildadhd
12-17-16, 11:04 PM
Consistently conflicting internal and/or external preverbal experiences, stimulate lower negative feeling emotional action systems, interfering with neurodevelopment of the higher self-motivation system, resulting in slight deficits of cognitive self-motivation and in slight surpluses of the motivations of the affective emotional action systems.

(Specifics depend partly on reactivity/sensitivity of individual temperament and individual circumstances)


G


Edit, in bold.

Consistently conflicting internal and/or external preverbal experiences, stimulate negative feeling emotional action systems, interfering with neurodevelopment of the positive feeling self-motivation.

Resulting in a continued surplus of the affective emotional action systems motivations, due to the consistently conflicting preverbal experiences that partly resulted in the deficits of cognitive self-motivation.

(Individual specifics depend partly on sensitivity/reactivity of individual temperament and individual circumstances)


G

mildadhd
12-18-16, 12:48 AM
Edit, edit in bold.


Consistently conflicting preverbal* experiences, stimulate and promote neurodevelopment of negative feeling primary emotional action systems and negative feeling secondary implicit learning and memories. Interfering with neurodevelopment of the positive feeling primary emotional action systems, positive feeling secondary implicit learning and memories, and future tertiary self-control functions like self-motivation.

( individual specifics depend partly on sensitivity/reactivity of inherited temperament and internal and/or external circumstances)

*At first, human infants'/toddlers' lower subcortical preverbal emotional-affective brain functions, are more mature and have more control over ourself than their less mature cortical verbal cognitive brain functions.



G

Kunga Dorji
12-18-16, 04:40 AM
We are screwed basically , if experts can't even agree on how adhd brain really works or why it works the way it does. We are still only in a theoretical phase. How in the world are we gonna move to practical phase which will offer some bullet proof solution . Meds do work somewhat, but there has to be a better way then stimulants. It just sound too crude of a treatment .


We are still in a relatively early stage of understanding brain function in "normal brains" never mind ADHD brains. The same applies to conditions like depression, schizophrenia, OCD etc so we are always in a position of having to do our best with the options available. That means trialling various options and seeing what one work best for us.

As far as "being screwed" goes though- we actually are much better off than preceding generations because of the growth of knowledge.

We certainly have plenty of knowledge about the unconscious nature of most of our actions-- right down to fMRI studies showing that the initiation of many actions occurs some hundreds of milliseconds before we are consciously aware of deciding to do that action.
Many of the actions that cause those of us with ADHD real trouble are unconscious--- forgetting our keys, locking ourselves our of the house, forgetting where we parked the car at the airport.

The implications of this are important-- if we try to consciously compensate for what most of our peers can do without thinking we really will end up with a problem.

We couldn't cope at all if we tried to do each of these things consciously.

So- to the original theme of the thread- Barkley is correct in saying that ADHD is not a problem of knowing what to do- it is a problem of initiating the action.

However, the problem is not one of motivation, it is one of unreliable activation of habits or behavioural subroutines.
IE I was not leaving my house keys locked in the house because I was ill motivated- (that would be silly), I was leaving them behind because my conscious mind was so bogged down with worrying about all the other ADHD errors that I had to compensate for that I became overloaded and made another mistake.

In essence the idea of ADHD coaching involves building solid habits that will support of everyday functioning.

The only real difference for us is that establishing those habits takes longer than it does for others.

The unconscious mechanisms for behaviour control are much faster and far better at multitasking.

meadd823
12-18-16, 04:54 AM
What is your take on the quote below?



Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?




G

Motivation or interest, is there a difference?

Motivation vs interest..... it is hard to get motivated to do things I am not interested in however life demands I do more crap I am not interested in doing than it allows me to pursue those that I am.

Some times it is easier to not waste what energy I do have on questions whose answer will not provide me a functional solution. My energy is best used to accomplish task that will lead to out comes I desire.

Doing what I know .......pfttt I know more about things I should not do than I do doing those things I should.

Motivated comes from figuring out what you want and connecting ones brain long enough to figure out ways to accomplish that without harm to self and others.

mildadhd
12-18-16, 05:32 AM
So- to the original theme of the thread- Barkley is correct in saying that ADHD is not a problem of knowing what to do- it is a problem of initiating the action.



When you (or Dr Barkley) write, "ADHD is..".

Are you focusing on the causes of ADHD?

Are you focusing on the effects of ADHD?

Are you focusing on the causes and the effects of ADHD?

In my opinion I have always been focusing on factors involved to the original theme of this thread, which includes factors involved in both causes and effects of ADHD.

"ADHD is" not just the effects.




G

Lunacie
12-18-16, 12:54 PM
Kunga is right in that we are in the early stages of understanding brain function.

The only thing known for certain is that there is a genetic component to most cases of adhd.

The rest is fodder for further research. Interesting to discuss, not worth debating just yet.

mildadhd
12-18-16, 01:41 PM
Kunga is right in that we are in the early stages of understanding brain function.

The only thing known for certain is that there is a genetic component to most cases of adhd.

The rest is fodder for further research. Interesting to discuss, not worth debating just yet.

1)Look up any research involving ADHD (you choose), and there are always environmental factors and genetic factors, not just genetic.

Not just environmental factors.

Not just genetic factors.

Environmental factors and genetic factors.


2)Look up any research involving how the whole brain functions normally and there are always affective factors and cognitive factors.

Not just affective factors.

Not just cognitive factors

Affective factors and cognitive factors.


(It is impossible any other way)


G

Kunga Dorji
12-18-16, 09:04 PM
Motivation or interest, is there a difference?

Motivation vs interest..... it is hard to get motivated to do things I am not interested in however life demands I do more crap I am not interested in doing than it allows me to pursue those that I am.

Some times it is easier to not waste what energy I do have on questions whose answer will not provide me a functional solution. My energy is best used to accomplish task that will lead to out comes I desire.

Doing what I know .......pfttt I know more about things I should not do than I do doing those things I should.

Motivated comes from figuring out what you want and connecting ones brain long enough to figure out ways to accomplish that without harm to self and others.


Motivation and interest seem to me to be different ways of describing the same thing.

However, to simplify my earlier posts the essence of most ADHD problems is failure to do things which come automatically and unconsciously to most people- and that these failures have nothing to do with motivation.

ie failing to put one's house keys in a predictable place when getting home, forgetting to turn the stove off when leaving home, Leaving home without the items necessary for the day's work, tuning out in the middle of a conversation.

There can be motivation problems, but I suspect these relate to a secondary level of depression/ dysthymia and a sense of pointlessness. After all- dealing with chronic ADHD symptoms, and the negativity one experiences as a result of them can be depressing. The secondary oppositional defiant disorder seen in some children/ adolescents with ADHD is much more of a classic motivation problem.

Kunga Dorji
12-18-16, 09:09 PM
1)Look up any research involving ADHD (you choose), and there are always environmental factors and genetic factors, not just genetic.

Not just environmental factors.

Not just genetic factors.

Environmental factors and genetic factors.

(It is impossible any other way)


G

Yes, the statements by many scientists that they think there may be genetic factors have got to the point of being almost silly- because there are genetic factors influencing all living beings, and by and large genetic factors are difficult to modify.
We just don't know what the genetic factors are and how to alter their effect on life outcomes.

The environmental factors are more interesting as there are significant numbers of identical twin pairs in which one twin has ADHD and the other does not. ( the same goes for other sibling pairs).

So the question of what environmental factors are protective against one's genetic heritage becomes very interesting.

Lunacie
12-18-16, 10:11 PM
Yes, the statements by many scientists that they think there may be genetic factors have got to the point of being almost silly- because there are genetic factors influencing all living beings, and by and large genetic factors are difficult to modify.
We just don't know what the genetic factors are and how to alter their effect on life outcomes.

The environmental factors are more interesting as there are significant numbers of identical twin pairs in which one twin has ADHD and the other does not. ( the same goes for other sibling pairs).

So the question of what environmental factors are protective against one's genetic heritage becomes very interesting.

And since we all have a different genetic makeup, does stress for example
affect us in different ways? And will the protective or preventive measure also
be different for each of us?

So much still to learn, so little known.

Kunga Dorji
12-18-16, 11:06 PM
And since we all have a different genetic makeup, does stress for example
affect us in different ways? And will the protective or preventive measure also
be different for each of us?

So much still to learn, so little known.


Broadly speaking stress affects us all in the same way- with activation of the sympathetic nervous system- leading to changes like increased sensory awareness, increased vigilance (neither of which is good for stable attention) and increased metabolic rate, tremor, increased heart rate, increased pupillary dilatation and increased mobilisation of glucose supplies.

However the causes of stress differ and often include many causes which are not obvious. Subtle impairments of the vestibular system are a major cause of stress for many of us but they are not something that is usually thought of by corticocentric brain researchers, and they usually require more subtle physical examination than most doctors are trained to do.

Lunacie
12-19-16, 12:34 PM
Broadly speaking stress affects us all in the same way- with activation of the sympathetic nervous system- leading to changes like increased sensory awareness, increased vigilance (neither of which is good for stable attention) and increased metabolic rate, tremor, increased heart rate, increased pupillary dilatation and increased mobilisation of glucose supplies.

However the causes of stress differ and often include many causes which are not obvious. Subtle impairments of the vestibular system are a major cause of stress for many of us but they are not something that is usually thought of by corticocentric brain researchers, and they usually require more subtle physical examination than most doctors are trained to do.

Ah, that could certainly explain my granddaughter's heightened anxiety lately,
she had a virus that definately caused a lot of stress, and may be affecting her
vestibular system. We have to be detectives with autistic children as they can't
explain clearly what they are feeling.

And yeah, there's more to us than just our brains. ;)

ginniebean
12-19-16, 01:22 PM
Yes, the statements by many scientists that they think there may be genetic factors have got to the point of being almost silly- because there are genetic factors influencing all living beings, and by and large genetic factors are difficult to modify.
We just don't know what the genetic factors are and how to alter their effect on life outcomes.

The environmental factors are more interesting as there are significant numbers of identical twin pairs in which one twin has ADHD and the other does not. ( the same goes for other sibling pairs).

So the question of what environmental factors are protective against one's genetic heritage becomes very interesting.

What has become silly is the complete and utter dismisal or hysteria when genetics is mentioned at all. Genetic cause of adhd (note i did not say ALL adhd) is well documented. There are enough studies done that genetic origin in MOST cases of adhd is legit. This use of subtle and not so subtle undermining language that serves to undermine confidence of people with adhd and caregivers is a well documented method of alt hypotheticians to try and legitimize their statements by using language that appears authoritative but is laughably far from it. To assert they even have a leg to stand on it's akin to those ads that say "you're doctor doesn't want you to know.

i assure you the alt hypothesis are not more enlightened, so words like cortico centric slide right past conscious thought embedding. In a weasel way. there is no dispute. Adhs is a brain centred disorder. it is not enlightened to suggest otherwise. peripheral affective conditions like stress, diet, vestibular alignment have not a shred of evidence in the form of studies on adhd as the cause.

These weasel words are meant to fool people. They are slippery and embed themselves in this form to pass unchallenged. I repeat, adhd is corticocentric because it actually is a brain disorder. i challenge you to provide solid evidence in the form of robust studies using people with adhd to say otherwise.

Ps. Using my tiny phone with poor eyesight to type please forgive spelling mistakes.

someothertime
12-20-16, 07:19 AM
Safe = higher level thinking.
"Unsafe" = Fight or flight.

Preverbal unsafety = brain wiring formed with fight or flight 'napses as the root.

mildadhd
12-21-16, 12:45 AM
Safe = higher level thinking.
"Unsafe" = Fight or flight

Preverbal unsafety = brain wiring formed with fight or flight 'napses as the root.

Thanks!

In addition

Biologically, there are 2 reptilian/mammalian negative feeling instinctual genetic unconditioned primary emotional-affective response systems and 1 mammalian negative feeling instinctual genetic unconditioned primary social emotional-affective response system.

Primary RAGE system/secondary conditioned preverbal experiences; fight/irritable/angry..

Primary FEAR system/secondary conditioned preverbal experiences; flight/freeze/type of anxious/scared..

Primary GRIEF system/secondary conditioned preverbal experiences; sad/ type of anxious/panic/preverbal separation-distress, type of crying that helps to reunite infant/toddler with maternal regulator.

-mammalian preverbal unsafety = interference with dopamine, opiate, anandamide driven positive feeling primary emotional response systems, secondary conditioned implicit learning and memories and tertiary "higher level thinking".


G

mildadhd
12-21-16, 11:33 PM
Another example.

frightened and alone,

FEAR system/"frightened", and, GRIEF system/"alone".

agitated and cries

RAGE system/"agitated", and, GRIEF system/"cries".

It is pretty obvious why young animals cry when separated from their mothers..

..There is an adaptive value in such childhood misery, because when very young animals feel frightened and alone, their cries alert parents to come rescue them.

Imagine the striking image of a young sea otter on the open sea, completely dependent on its mother for food and care.

When a mother dives into the depths in search of sustenance, she must leave her infant unattended for many minutes.

In her absence, the youngster becomes agitated and cries persistently.

These DV's [Distress Vocalization's] which some scientists also refer to as "isolation calls," alert the mother where her baby is to be found.

If there were no such emotional communication, a mother otter that has lost her bearings while diving might be permanently separated from her infant, who would then be lost forever.

Thus, the security, indeed survival, of the infant is unequivocally linked to the audio-vocal thread of attachment that joins it to its mother.

Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", (Chapter: Born to Cry), p 317.


G

mildadhd
12-22-16, 12:21 AM
i think it's saying it's not a knowledge problem; it's an executing problem. so it's not that you don't know, it's that being able to incorporate what you know successfully into action is the problem.



Assuming knowledge is cognitive, and ADHD is not a knowledge problem?

Does that mean a "executing problem" is a affective motivation problem?

Do you understand my confusion?

"Doing" seems like both affective motivations and cognitive motivations to me?


G?

someothertime
12-22-16, 12:26 AM
How in the world are we gonna move to practical phase which will offer some bullet proof solution.

The redefinition if bullet is more than half the solution. Preverbal intervention as is being discussed is THE MOST albeit not only way to prevent these once were bullets in the first place. Experts and individuals narrowed to self centric / post stressor treatments is akin to trying to grow human organs instead of preventing them being damaged in the first place.

Neural development is the key battlefront. Experience of systems and systemic adaption hold many inroads.

TygerSan
12-27-16, 09:42 AM
Mild, I would say yes to your question. The problem of doing, or executing, arises due to problems with motivation, but also problems with time perception, planning, and remembering the steps of that plan. Thus, there are also problems with cognition as well as motivation. Which comes first, if any, I'm not sure.

Lunacie
12-27-16, 11:02 AM
Mild, I would say yes to your question. The problem of doing, or executing, arises due to problems with motivation, but also problems with time perception, planning, and remembering the steps of that plan. Thus, there are also problems with cognition as well as motivation. Which comes first, if any, I'm not sure.

Makes sense to me ... just as we can't name one single cause of adhd, we can't
really name one single cause for being unable to "do what you know."

mildadhd
12-31-16, 01:50 AM
I think it would be very hard to answer these questions at this stage- I guess the research may not have been done yet.
If anything there would be pruning of neurones between birth and adulthood and increasing elaboration of the synaptic connections.

From what I recall of my neuro- embryology areas like the midbrain are near mature at birth.
Certainly this applies to the brainstem (immediately below the midbrain)- which is essential for basic life maintenance.

My infant affective brain is older than my adult cognitive brain.


G

WheresMyMind
12-31-16, 02:10 AM
What is your take on the quote below?

Is "a problem of doing what you know.", a motivation problem?

G

Not as I see it.

I know a lot of stuff. Any "job" requires you do stuff in a sequence. But as I'm doing one step in a sequence, I forget what's next. And the only way to do a step right is to know what the next step is - that next step is what you're preparing for, in theory.

I am capable of doing everything I need to do. I just don't remember which of the hundreds of things I can do is the right one to do next.

I am not unmotivated - I'm just lost in my head.

Lunacie
12-31-16, 12:12 PM
Not as I see it.

I know a lot of stuff. Any "job" requires you do stuff in a sequence. But as I'm doing one step in a sequence, I forget what's next. And the only way to do a step right is to know what the next step is - that next step is what you're preparing for, in theory.

I am capable of doing everything I need to do. I just don't remember which of the hundreds of things I can do is the right one to do next.

I am not unmotivated - I'm just lost in my head.

That's the skill of planning,an executive skill, and it's definately impaired in those with ADHD.

I don't believe we are not motivated to plan ahead, that skill is seriously impaired.

mildadhd
12-31-16, 01:30 PM
Negative feeling preverbal internal conflict or/and negative feeling preverbal external conflict interfears with preverbal positive feelings and executive functions (aka self-regulation)

Conflict feels bad. ("Preverbal unsafety") (-someothertime)

Peace feels good. (Preverbal safety)

Development of self-regulation requires preverbal safety (peace), consistent preverbal unsafety (conflict) interfears with the development of self-regulation.

G

mildadhd
12-31-16, 01:48 PM
Doing what I know, depends on how I feel.


G

Little Missy
12-31-16, 01:50 PM
Doing what I know, depends on how I feel.


G

Yep, right there. The magic answer. The bottem line, just plain it. :)

Lunacie
12-31-16, 02:08 PM
Yep, right there. The magic answer. The bottem line, just plain it. :)

:confused:

mildadhd
12-31-16, 03:06 PM
Yep, right there. The magic answer. The bottem line, just plain it. :)

It is circular.

Affective-cognitive.

Cognitive-affective. (verbal cognitive awareness of preverbal affective feelings is part of healing it.)

My deficits of self-regulation "is not a problem of knowing what to do; it is a problem of doing what I know."

Doing what I know; depends on how I feel.


G

peripatetic
01-01-17, 04:10 PM
moderator note

this thread is closed until section moderators can review to ensure a coherent topic. this thread may be split or closed, depending on the outcome of the review.

cheers,
-peri