View Full Version : "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn


peripatetic
11-15-16, 11:55 AM
so, i've finally finished reading this book and i'm pretty happy with it, so thought i'd share.

it emphasizes two things:

1. behaviourism, with its series of rewards/punishments, fails to help children develop reasoning skills or a moral compass beyond "doing this gets me that".

2. there is a problem with "controlling" children if the goal is for them to develop the ability and desire to control themselves because it makes goals extrinsic (what will this get me or spare me) versus intrinsic ones (this is what i believe is the right thing to do).

obviously i'm waaaay oversimplifying because i'm not going to quote the book at length and i'd rather inspire others to read it and discuss with me than relying on my synopsis alone.

what i'm posting to ask is whether anyone else has read this book and attempted to apply its principles to parenting?

my e is still quite young (less than 20 months), but already i do find that some of the suggestions are quite helpful. i plan to try and incorporate more of them as she grows, but i'm curious if others have read the book and found it helpful.

cheers xx

Lunacie
11-15-16, 01:48 PM
I haven't read this book, but it sounds similar to the Parenting With Love and Logic book series, and the book How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen ... And Listen So Your Kids Will Talk.

Unfortunately none of the ideas works with an autistic child to make communication easier. :lol: But many of the ideas have been helpful.

And have helped me be a more relaxed co-parent. :giggle:

peripatetic
11-15-16, 02:34 PM
I haven't read this book, but it sounds similar to the Parenting With Love and Logic book series, and the book How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen ... And Listen So Your Kids Will Talk.

Unfortunately none of the ideas works with an autistic child to make communication easier. :lol: But many of the ideas have been helpful.

And have helped me be a more relaxed co-parent. :giggle:

this one is subtitled "moving from rewards and punishments to love and reason" so that does sound very similar to the ones you cited. i'll have to look into them. thanks!

Abi
11-15-16, 08:15 PM
The principles sound sound.

Is it a long read?

I wouldn't mind reading it and passing on some pointers to the parents of my "little someone"

Lunacie
11-15-16, 09:07 PM
Abi, good to see you!

I did buy another copy of How To Listen To Your Kids for my niece's family.

mildadhd
11-15-16, 11:12 PM
Edit, I have not read the book yet.

I am convinced that longterm unconditional parenting, as opposed to short term conditional parenting, works for all people, especially for children born with a more anxious temperament.

Love is an example of a positive feeling.

Safe positive feelings promote the development of self-regulation.

Many infants/toddlers/children/teens/young adults and adults who have deficits of self-regulation, were born with more emotionally sensitive temperaments.


G

peripatetic
11-15-16, 11:30 PM
it's more about developing a child with a social conscience or ethical compass or however you prefer to phrase it. more about respect and love and steering away from coercion or carrot/stick, punishment/reward systems. it's a process though, not a how to list.

i think of self regulation as still, with respect to ADHD, quite possibly needing more than love to develop self regulation. this would be less about shaping behaviour in favor of fostering creation of self. kids without self regulation still can need medication or other treatments.

with length, i want to say it's under 250. i just take forever nowadays...

mildadhd
11-16-16, 12:15 AM
it's more about developing a child with a social conscience or ethical compass or however you prefer to phrase it. more about respect and love and steering away from coercion or carrot/stick, punishment/reward systems. it's a process though, not a how to list.

i think of self regulation as still, with respect to ADHD, quite possibly needing more than love to develop self regulation. this would be less about shaping behaviour in favor of fostering creation of self. kids without self regulation still can need medication or other treatments.

with length, i want to say it's under 250. i just take forever nowadays...

I will look for the book, and after I finish it ..

..could we discuss these topics in parts, in posts under 250 , over a long period of time?

Because I mostly agree, and i am not sure why we are appearing to disagree?

Edit: It might have something to do with context?

Let me get back to you after I read the book.


G

sarahsweets
11-16-16, 05:28 AM
I havent read it but it sounds great and it sounds like something we have been lucky to just have adopted naturally. I have never supported the behavior/consequence/punishment model that seems to be so intrinsic to our society. I am sure people might say something like " your kids could do so much more if you made them do it.." or "what kind of moral compass will they have without xyz punishment?" But I can assure everyone here with confidence:
My kids are 20,16 and 13 and they are great kids. Compassionate, empathetic,smart,witty and kind-KIND. And thats what matters to me, not whether they remember to take out the recycles or keep their rooms spotless.

stef
11-16-16, 07:29 AM
This is just so reassuring!
I never thought it through at all; I'm naturally emphathetic and my son is rather sensitive; i just went with my instincts. sometimes i think, I should have been "stricter", but whenever i acted like a "typical" parent it felt false and wrong. The lack of punishment and rewards overall, has not made him demanding or poorly behaved.

I believe now, he may be in that category of "highly sensitive people", but he has absolutely no adhd.

Caco3girl
11-16-16, 10:32 AM
Shrug, to each their own. Every kid is different, I hope that by telling my kids the reasons why I handled the situations the way I handled them, it will help them to understand their own moral compasses. As my 14 year old gets older I can see the defiance in his eyes that he disagrees, I then ask him why he disagrees. 9 times out of 10 he didn't understand my reasoning, so I explained it again, but every now and then he does have a different take on things that makes me reevaluate.

I don't think any kind of dictatorship would work with a child, they need to know they have a voice in their life. However, my kids are also aware of certain expectations and rules, and they are unbreakable. If you do not have an 80% average in your core subjects you are grounded is an example of one. Notice I didn't say an 80% in ALL subjects, I said an average. My boy dislikes science with a passion, I am lucky if he is passing, but a higher math grade (which he loves) can compensate for his science grade. He has the power over if he is grounded, but he also knows it is a firm rule.

stef
11-16-16, 10:55 AM
I totally understand; it's not that there werent expectations and rules.
It's just that there wasnt a set rule of reward/punishment

Fuzzy12
11-16-16, 11:49 AM
It seems like such a basic thing but I can't remember my parents using rewards or punishments for us. I don't think they ever even insisted on much. Still I wasn't a very badly behaved kid I think. :scratch:

Maybe I should read the book. If I could read s book....

Lunacie
11-16-16, 12:46 PM
It seems like such a basic thing but I can't remember my parents using rewards or punishments for us. I don't think they ever even insisted on much. Still I wasn't a very badly behaved kid I think. :scratch:

Maybe I should read the book. If I could read s book....

My parents didn't use rewards/punishments either, but it was understood that
they made all the decisions.

So here I am at age 65, a grandmother, and still indecisive because I never
had a chance to develop self-confidence and self-reliance by practicing making
decisions and seeing what the consequences would be.

Caco3girl
11-16-16, 02:18 PM
My parents didn't use rewards/punishments either, but it was understood that
they made all the decisions.

So here I am at age 65, a grandmother, and still indecisive because I never
had a chance to develop self-confidence and self-reliance by practicing making
decisions and seeing what the consequences would be.

Are you being serious?

Lunacie
11-16-16, 04:35 PM
My parents didn't use rewards/punishments either, but it was understood that
they made all the decisions.

So here I am at age 65, a grandmother, and still indecisive because I never
had a chance to develop self-confidence and self-reliance by practicing making
decisions and seeing what the consequences would be.

Are you being serious?

Absolutely serious.

Unfortunately I began parenting with what I learned as a child.

It took me awhile to start giving my child choices. I didn't force her to eat
what I had fixed for dinner, she could have a peanut butter sammie instead.
She couldn't have whatever she wanted, but she still had a choice.

And we talked about everything. We watched tv together and talked about
what was happening and how the people were dealing with it, aind what we
would do in their shoes. She's better with decisions than I am, and generally
less anxious.

sarahsweets
11-17-16, 05:34 AM
Shrug, to each their own. Every kid is different, I hope that by telling my kids the reasons why I handled the situations the way I handled them, it will help them to understand their own moral compasses. As my 14 year old gets older I can see the defiance in his eyes that he disagrees, I then ask him why he disagrees. 9 times out of 10 he didn't understand my reasoning, so I explained it again, but every now and then he does have a different take on things that makes me reevaluate.

I don't think any kind of dictatorship would work with a child, they need to know they have a voice in their life. However, my kids are also aware of certain expectations and rules, and they are unbreakable. If you do not have an 80% average in your core subjects you are grounded is an example of one. Notice I didn't say an 80% in ALL subjects, I said an average. My boy dislikes science with a passion, I am lucky if he is passing, but a higher math grade (which he loves) can compensate for his science grade. He has the power over if he is grounded, but he also knows it is a firm rule.

I am really glad this works for you- thats a hard line to keep and if someone has really out of control kids then it can be really tough! I think you and I can agree though that compassion, empathy and kindness are ultimately the best sort of guidance we can give our kids, (not trying to speak for you, just identify with what you do). I have been lucky that the kids all had IEPs or 504's so any problems they had in school we addressed and we never had to go to those lengths over grades.

Caco3girl
11-17-16, 11:19 AM
Absolutely serious.

Unfortunately I began parenting with what I learned as a child.

It took me awhile to start giving my child choices. I didn't force her to eat
what I had fixed for dinner, she could have a peanut butter sammie instead.
She couldn't have whatever she wanted, but she still had a choice.

And we talked about everything. We watched tv together and talked about
what was happening and how the people were dealing with it, aind what we
would do in their shoes. She's better with decisions than I am, and generally
less anxious.

I'm still not understanding....did your parents not explain their choices to you? I make the decisions for my kids as well but I explain my choices. My hope is that by working through my reasoning with them, and even give end result scenarios, they understand why I made that choice and if a similar choice comes up again in their life they will have the guidance in knowing how I handled it.

I don't understand how you can be 65 and still feel you "never
had a chance to develop self-confidence and self-reliance by practicing making decisions and seeing what the consequences would be."....I mean what happened when you moved out? Surely you had to make your own choices then and rely on yourself.

Caco3girl
11-17-16, 11:28 AM
I am really glad this works for you- thats a hard line to keep and if someone has really out of control kids then it can be really tough! I think you and I can agree though that compassion, empathy and kindness are ultimately the best sort of guidance we can give our kids, (not trying to speak for you, just identify with what you do). I have been lucky that the kids all had IEPs or 504's so any problems they had in school we addressed and we never had to go to those lengths over grades.

I think I parent with compassion, empathy and kindness...I don't hold my kids to unrealistic standards, or to standards that would make them miserable. A lady in my office gets very upset when her children come home with less than a 90% on any grade. She also does homework with them every night for hours. Now, yes, her kids are now in all the gifted programs but I just wouldn't want to put that type of pressure on my kid.

Bottom line, if I feel the goal is attainable with a medium amount of effort the rule sticks. If at some point the goal is no longer attainable, even with extreme effort, the rules are shifted. For example, my 14 year old just didn't seem capable of doing Spanish. He struggled horribly, was in general just lost, and ultimately the IEP team took him out of Spanish. However, once I realized the struggle he had Spanish was removed from the 80% course average to be able to go out.

My goal is not to hold my children to unrealistic expectations, but they do need to realize there ARE expectations. They need to try, to actually make an effort. They can't be so busy planing their life they forget the other important things. My son registers that while he may be wondering about if a specific girl will be at the football game on Friday he had better keep his grades half way decent in order to be able to even go to the game.

Lunacie
11-17-16, 12:49 PM
I'm still not understanding....did your parents not explain their choices to you? I make the decisions for my kids as well but I explain my choices. My hope is that by working through my reasoning with them, and even give end result scenarios, they understand why I made that choice and if a similar choice comes up again in their life they will have the guidance in knowing how I handled it.

I don't understand how you can be 65 and still feel you "never
had a chance to develop self-confidence and self-reliance by practicing making decisions and seeing what the consequences would be."....I mean what happened when you moved out? Surely you had to make your own choices then and rely on yourself.

Explain something to a child? A teen? A young adult? Not my parents.
Dad never actually talked to me, and Mom just seemed to expect me to
know by osmosis or something.

And if I didn't do something well enough (even washing dishes or folding
clothes) she would just sigh and do it over again herself.

The self-doubt and lack of confidence ... if you haven't ever experienced
that, I probably couldn't explain it to you.

Yes, I had to make decisions, and I second-guessed myself and guilted
myself and what-if'ed myself ... and my anxiety became crippling.
.

Caco3girl
11-17-16, 03:30 PM
Explain something to a child? A teen? A young adult? Not my parents.
Dad never actually talked to me, and Mom just seemed to expect me to
know by osmosis or something.

And if I didn't do something well enough (even washing dishes or folding
clothes) she would just sigh and do it over again herself.

The self-doubt and lack of confidence ... if you haven't ever experienced
that, I probably couldn't explain it to you.

Yes, I had to make decisions, and I second-guessed myself and guilted
myself and what-if'ed myself ... and my anxiety became crippling.
.

I'm guessing this would be like me trying to explain to you what it is like to be dyslexic. I don't understand about crippling anxiety regarding lack of confidence. My mantra has always been "Make a choice, it may not be the right choice, but at least you are trying something."

sarahsweets
11-18-16, 06:10 AM
I think I parent with compassion, empathy and kindness...I don't hold my kids to unrealistic standards, or to standards that would make them miserable. A lady in my office gets very upset when her children come home with less than a 90% on any grade. She also does homework with them every night for hours. Now, yes, her kids are now in all the gifted programs but I just wouldn't want to put that type of pressure on my kid.

Bottom line, if I feel the goal is attainable with a medium amount of effort the rule sticks. If at some point the goal is no longer attainable, even with extreme effort, the rules are shifted. For example, my 14 year old just didn't seem capable of doing Spanish. He struggled horribly, was in general just lost, and ultimately the IEP team took him out of Spanish. However, once I realized the struggle he had Spanish was removed from the 80% course average to be able to go out.

My goal is not to hold my children to unrealistic expectations, but they do need to realize there ARE expectations. They need to try, to actually make an effort. They can't be so busy planing their life they forget the other important things. My son registers that while he may be wondering about if a specific girl will be at the football game on Friday he had better keep his grades half way decent in order to be able to even go to the game.

I hope I didnt give the impression that I thought you didnt parent with compassion, empathy or kindness- I dont think that at all! I am truly glad that you are able to share what works for you, I know its given me ideas and thoughts. I just meant that..maybe Ive failed my kids in some way but not being more....forward, strict,specific or have higher expectations? ( I cant find the right words to explain what I mean). Sometimes when I see what you are able to accomplish with your kids and other parents as well, I feel like I have somehow made my kids' adhd worse- like not quite coddled them, but made them think that their way is inevitably better than any way a parent or teacher or other figure would suggest- and I dont want to think that I have somehow raised entitled spoiled kids. I guess thats where the other stuff comes into play. When I think about those things that seem like failings- I remember how good their hearts are and how all the mean things that people do never seem like choices for them, That their default is to act with kindness and not cruelty or simply being jerks. I dont know if I make sense here but thats kind of what I meant to say.

Lunacie
11-18-16, 10:37 AM
I'm guessing this would be like me trying to explain to you what it is like to be dyslexic. I don't understand about crippling anxiety regarding lack of confidence. My mantra has always been "Make a choice, it may not be the right choice, but at least you are trying something."

Apparently you were allowed to make choices. I wasn't. I had a role I was
expected to fulfill as the oldest girl in the family.

My little sister didn't have those expectations and made her own choices,
including getting pregnant at 16 ... at which point her right to choose came
to an end and she was made to get an abortion.

dvdnvwls
11-18-16, 03:56 PM
Sometimes, the names we give to things can be a bad influence on our behaviour. If a thief claims to be "borrowing", it will seem less bad to the thief, and if stealing was called by its right name, the thief would have an extra chance to reconsider.

I believe that using the word "consequence" in parenting has the same function - to hide the truth of the matter and keep people from really thinking about what they're doing.

Any "consequence" that is planned or agreed to or requires further action by anyone is not a consequence. Consequences always just happen naturally, without any intervention or any thought from anyone. So-called "consequences" in parenting-book-speak are nothing but punishments and rewards, with a fake justification in the form of a made-up false name.

This doesn't mean punishment and reward are always wrong. It only means that the word "consequence" in this context is always a weasel word or a false front or whatever you call that type of thing. And that we would all do better if we called things by their right names to avoid faulty reasoning.

Lunacie
11-18-16, 04:07 PM
Sometimes, the names we give to things can be a bad influence on our behaviour. If a thief claims to be "borrowing", it will seem less bad to the thief, and if stealing was called by its right name, the thief would have an extra chance to reconsider.

I believe that using the word "consequence" in parenting has the same function - to hide the truth of the matter and keep people from really thinking about what they're doing.

Any "consequence" that is planned or agreed to or requires further action by anyone is not a consequence. Consequences always just happen naturally, without any intervention or any thought from anyone. So-called "consequences" in parenting-book-speak are nothing but punishments and rewards, with a fake justification in the form of a made-up false name.

This doesn't mean punishment and reward are always wrong. It only means that the word "consequence" in this context is always a weasel word or a false front or whatever you call that type of thing.

An example in the Love and Logic books is of a child not wanting to wear a coat.

If the parent says, okay your choice, and the child gets cold, that's a consequence.

I think you can also tell the child that if they don't help with chores around the
house, the parent ends up doing all the work and may be too tired to take the child
to the zoo or the movie or whatever outing the child wants to do.

I think that's still a natural consequence if explained that way.

Another suggestion in the books is that the child can hire someone to do the
chores and it will come out of their allowance, or if the parent has to pay it will
mean there probably won't be any money for the next thing the child says they want.

dvdnvwls
11-18-16, 05:11 PM
Lunacie: absolutely. Making someone aware of real consequences that they otherwise might not have taken into account is very different from creating artificial consequences. There isn't a fine line at all - it's completely different.

sarahsweets
11-22-16, 09:58 AM
Any "consequence" that is planned or agreed to or requires further action by anyone is not a consequence. Consequences always just happen naturally, without any intervention or any thought from anyone. So-called "consequences" in parenting-book-speak are nothing but punishments and rewards, with a fake justification in the form of a made-up false name.

I can identify with what you are explaining. To use me or some of the people I hang with in the recovery community:
When I was drinking, I would be a black out drinker. I wreaked havoc with my loved ones. In turn, they lost trust in me- and I had to work hard at making amends and repairing the fracture I caused.
To me- the consequence was the lack of trust I created, my children not trusting that their mother would be able to show up for their plays or concerts because I was hung over or couldnt be away from alcohol anymore.
That to me was a natural consequence of my drinking.
Because I blacked out, I had no control nor memory of my behaviors- in turn my family treated me differently and afraid of my actions when under the influence.
My friend got arrested for driving drunk. Her BF bailed her out and she went to court. She got 90 days in jail. To me, the arrest part was the natural consequence, and the jail part was the punishment or punitive parts of the drinking.
I dont know if I am explaining it well or even if I make sense.....

Caco3girl
11-28-16, 04:13 PM
I hope I didnt give the impression that I thought you didnt parent with compassion, empathy or kindness- I dont think that at all! I am truly glad that you are able to share what works for you, I know its given me ideas and thoughts. I just meant that..maybe Ive failed my kids in some way but not being more....forward, strict,specific or have higher expectations? ( I cant find the right words to explain what I mean). Sometimes when I see what you are able to accomplish with your kids and other parents as well, I feel like I have somehow made my kids' adhd worse- like not quite coddled them, but made them think that their way is inevitably better than any way a parent or teacher or other figure would suggest- and I dont want to think that I have somehow raised entitled spoiled kids. I guess thats where the other stuff comes into play. When I think about those things that seem like failings- I remember how good their hearts are and how all the mean things that people do never seem like choices for them, That their default is to act with kindness and not cruelty or simply being jerks. I dont know if I make sense here but thats kind of what I meant to say.

I have noticed that many people who have special kids doing things in their own special ways, that the parents are quick to say "THE WAY MY KID IS DOING IT IS FINE!"....I think the parents may have been conditioned into this response through years of being told their child wasn't fitting the social norm.

ADHD and dyslexic kids are marching to the beat of a different drummer than most folks but I do think it's okay to encourage them to conform rather than immediately defend their non-conformity. For example, my son plays baseball. Was that ball about 6 inches off the plate actually a strike...NOPE....now he knows it wasn't a strike, the coach knows it wasn't a strike, heck the pitcher knows it wasn't a strike. However, my son needs to accept that THAT is where the umpire is calling a strike today. He now has 2 strikes and the pitcher is going to throw it to that same spot....my son has a choice to make. I can stand my ground because I KNOW that was not a strike, and my coach knows that was not a strike, but you know what that is going to get you??? Strike three, you are out, or you can accept the alternate reality and pretend it IS a strike and take a step forward so you can hit that ball and let the guy on third come in and score the winning run!

It's about choices....just because a child is different doesn't mean he can't conform on most things. He doesn't have to believe it is the right way to do things, but if that is what the umpire or the teacher is wanting why not try to give it to them as opposed to standing your ground that it is okay to be different?

Lunacie
11-28-16, 05:23 PM
It's about choices....just because a child is different doesn't mean he can't conform on most things. He doesn't have to believe it is the right way to do things, but if that is what the umpire or the teacher is wanting why not try to give it to them as opposed to standing your ground that it is okay to be different?

Actually kids with autism may not be ABLE to conform on some things.
They have a deficit in their ability to adapt. Given time and practice, some
can adapt to what seems illogical to them. But when hit with a new paradox
they often become stuck.

This can also be true of kids with adhd, although to a lesser degree. The
ability to adapt and change and go-with-the-flow just doesn't work right.

Edit to share this link: https://iancommunity.org/ssc/autism-adaptive-skills

BellaVita
11-28-16, 05:54 PM
Actually kids with autism may not be ABLE to conform on some things.
They have a deficit in their ability to adapt. Given time and practice, some
can adapt to what seems illogical to them. But when hit with a new paradox
they often become stuck.

This can also be true of kids with adhd, although to a lesser degree. The
ability to adapt and change and go-with-the-flow just doesn't work right.

Edit to share this link: https://iancommunity.org/ssc/autism-adaptive-skills

Yeah to this :thankyou:

In fact, being made to conform can be harmful to the autistic (and I'm sure to many with ADHD as well)

The years and years I went through trying to look and act normal, and conform(even though I still failed at all this) is I believe one of the main things that caused me to become very ill, and totally collapsed and have a burnout that caused me to drop out of university and I was unable to function, unable to shower, unable to dress myself, unable to take care of my hygiene, unable to make food, hardly left my room because I couldn't do anything. And this lasted for a very long time.

I think that burned me out permanently from being able to try to act "normal".

I get worn out, drained, anxious, and close to meltdown when I try to act "normal" for even a few minutes nowadays. It's isn't worth the toll it takes on my mental and physical resources.

Thankfully I am around people now who accept me for who I am, autistic symptoms and all.

I wish I was just told that I was allowed to be that way, growing up.

Let us not underestimate acceptance.

There are things nowadays that are accepted in society that would not have been even a decade ago. The autistic community is working hard on advocating acceptance, and I hope one day the world will be a more accepting place for all of us.

There are also many accounts from autistic people who share how ABA therapy has been abusive and harmful to them. This therapy is where they are trained to "act normal". It trains them to suppress their natural behaviors, and tries to make them look "less autistic."

You cannot train the autism out of an autistic person, trying to do so in my opinion is simply abusive.

I hope that one day when I have kids and they go to school, that the teachers will be so accepting of autism by then that they do not try to suggest therapy when my son or daughter hand flaps continuously in class or rocks back-and-forth or doesn't make eye contact.

And if society hasn't changed that much by then, then I'm gonna be one fierce momma who stands up for the way her kids really are. :)

Caco3girl
11-29-16, 12:40 PM
Actually kids with autism may not be ABLE to conform on some things.
They have a deficit in their ability to adapt. Given time and practice, some
can adapt to what seems illogical to them. But when hit with a new paradox
they often become stuck.

This can also be true of kids with adhd, although to a lesser degree. The
ability to adapt and change and go-with-the-flow just doesn't work right.

Edit to share this link: https://iancommunity.org/ssc/autism-adaptive-skills

If you read my post I was talking about ADHD and Dyslexic kids...autism is an entirely different spectrum.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard something like "he CAN'T do the project that way" or "he shouldn't have to do the project that way". It may take an extra 9 steps but attempting to conform would be more helpful than saying he is ADHD or dyslexic so he CAN'T conform. Will he do it the same way 90% of other people did it, NOPE. Not even a shot at doing things the way most people do, but it isn't impossible and it is something that should be strived for in my opinion.

I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.

Lunacie
11-29-16, 12:55 PM
If you read my post I was talking about ADHD and Dyslexic kids...autism is an entirely different spectrum.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard something like "he CAN'T do the project that way" or "he shouldn't have to do the project that way". It may take an extra 9 steps but attempting to conform would be more helpful than saying he is ADHD or dyslexic so he CAN'T conform. Will he do it the same way 90% of other people did it, NOPE. Not even a shot at doing things the way most people do, but it isn't impossible and it is something that should be strived for in my opinion.

I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.

Are you confused or is it just me? You say the child should try to conform,
but then you s/he probably won't be able to do it the same way as others.

I do think the impairments that come with adhd and dyslexia (and discalculia)
are just as real as those that come with autism, and after spending the first
50+ years of my life being told I was a failure because I couldn't do some of
the things others do in the same way others do them I would just hope kids
today aren't being shamed that way.

Would you tell a child with a club foot that s/he should conform in phys ed
class by running laps and playing kick ball?

My daughter, who shares discalculia with her daughter and I both, shared this
blog with me recently: If you can't learn math maybe it's not your fault ...
(http://www.printfriendly.com/print?source=homepage&url_s=uGGC%25dN%25cS%25cSpuEvFtHvyyrornHmpBz%25cSp nAG-yrnEA-znGu%25cS)

To follow that clue, maybe if you struggle with social skills it's Not Your Fault.

BellaVita
11-29-16, 03:36 PM
I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.

Can you please explain what you mean when you say autistic people are actually in another world?

sarahsweets
11-29-16, 03:37 PM
I can't tell you how many time I have heard something like "he CAN'T do the project that way" or "he shouldn't have to do the project that way". It may take an extra 9 steps but attempting to conform would be more helpful than saying he is ADHD or dyslexic so he CAN'T conform. Will he do it the same way 90% of other people did it, NOPE. Not even a shot at doing things the way most people do, but it isn't impossible and it is something that should be strived for in my opinion.
Attempting to conform is not a bad thing-not being able to is another thing. My kids all have had different accommodations with their IEP/504's. Some were things like extra time on tests or projects, verbal instructions differently, special paper due to dysgraphia/dyslexia, certain types of pens or folders. My son had OT and PT until 10th grade- his phys ed accommodations were that he wasnt graded on standard sports things like goals or layups- effort was given more weight.


However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.
Agree with you here on those differences. I have no issue making my kids try everything and anything the "standard"way-but I cant see the point in not having them try it a different way when they cant.

Caco3girl
11-29-16, 04:32 PM
Are you confused or is it just me? You say the child should try to conform,
but then you s/he probably won't be able to do it the same way as others.

I do think the impairments that come with adhd and dyslexia (and discalculia)
are just as real as those that come with autism, and after spending the first
50+ years of my life being told I was a failure because I couldn't do some of
the things others do in the same way others do them I would just hope kids
today aren't being shamed that way.

Would you tell a child with a club foot that s/he should conform in phys ed
class by running laps and playing kick ball?

My daughter, who shares discalculia with her daughter and I both, shared this
blog with me recently: If you can't learn math maybe it's not your fault ...
(http://www.printfriendly.com/print?source=homepage&url_s=uGGC%25dN%25cS%25cSpuEvFtHvyyrornHmpBz%25cSp nAG-yrnEA-znGu%25cS)

To follow that clue, maybe if you struggle with social skills it's Not Your Fault.

My son has ADHD and I am dyslexic, and while we can NOT approach certain academic things in the same way we CAN still do them and in a way a teacher finds appropriate. The very first point I was making.....WAYYYYYY up there.....is that some parents are sooo busy yelling "he's different, he has XYZ, he doesn't have to do it YOUR way"...is not the best approach. I wish more parents were of the mindset, how can my child work within the system rather than the mindset I see so often of "my child doesn't HAVE to work within the system."

Obviously some things are just not possible, such as a club footed person running laps, however, an adaptation would be a club footed person doing laps on a scooter, or in a wheel chair or using another tool to perform the function.

Perfect example, I can NOT tell counter clockwise and clockwise, it's a total lost cause. Well in Organic Chemistry the way a molecule turns indicates what type of molecule it is, you HAVE to be able to tell clockwise and counter clockwise. As the teacher went over this I became upset, then more upset, then saw my whole future going down the tubes because I couldn't tell them apart. I went to the support office in tears and my case worker said "We have seen this before, it will be fine", he drew me a clock with red arrows going one way and green arrows going to other way and then color coded which was which. He didn't say "You can't do that, you are dyslexic, I will get you exempted from this part of the test"...which is where I see many parents heads now a days....they don't try to adapt, they just fight whatever it is that causes the glitch.

Lunacie
11-29-16, 06:36 PM
My son has ADHD and I am dyslexic, and while we can NOT approach certain academic things in the same way we CAN still do them and in a way a teacher finds appropriate. The very first point I was making.....WAYYYYYY up there.....is that some parents are sooo busy yelling "he's different, he has XYZ, he doesn't have to do it YOUR way"...is not the best approach. I wish more parents were of the mindset, how can my child work within the system rather than the mindset I see so often of "my child doesn't HAVE to work within the system."

Obviously some things are just not possible, such as a club footed person running laps, however, an adaptation would be a club footed person doing laps on a scooter, or in a wheel chair or using another tool to perform the function.

Perfect example, I can NOT tell counter clockwise and clockwise, it's a total lost cause. Well in Organic Chemistry the way a molecule turns indicates what type of molecule it is, you HAVE to be able to tell clockwise and counter clockwise. As the teacher went over this I became upset, then more upset, then saw my whole future going down the tubes because I couldn't tell them apart. I went to the support office in tears and my case worker said "We have seen this before, it will be fine", he drew me a clock with red arrows going one way and green arrows going to other way and then color coded which was which. He didn't say "You can't do that, you are dyslexic, I will get you exempted from this part of the test"...which is where I see many parents heads now a days....they don't try to adapt, they just fight whatever it is that causes the glitch.

Thank you for explaining further. Where is it that you are seeing parents say
these things?

On this forum we're more likely to discuss various accomodations for doing
things in a way that will work better (not work harder) than in gaining an
exemption for our kids to not have to do them at all.

Caco3girl
11-30-16, 08:37 AM
Can you please explain what you mean when you say autistic people are actually in another world?

Sure, let me start by saying it wasn't meant as a derogatory statement. It's been my experience when talking and working with most autistic children that drawing them into a conversation or showing them how to do something...well...they just aren't really WITH me. They visit my world for brief times but often it's like they are seeing things and perceiving things that I am not. i.e. in another world.

Caco3girl
11-30-16, 08:42 AM
Thank you for explaining further. Where is it that you are seeing parents say
these things?

On this forum we're more likely to discuss various accommodations for doing
things in a way that will work better (not work harder) than in gaining an
exemption for our kids to not have to do them at all.

I've spoken to several parents in my area that have children with ADHD or other issues that impede their learning in some way. I have seen time and time again that they call a 504 or an IEP meeting to eliminate a standard, rather than trying to work WITHIN the standard.

A good example is that in 9th grade literature 20% of your final grade is based on a standardized test. One mother, who has 4 Special Education children, called an IEP meeting where she explained that it was unreasonable for her child's grade to depend on a standardized test and she wanted that standard eliminated. The panel tried to work with her to determine accommodations that would help her kid like having the passages read to him, extended time...etc. However, she was firm that her child was unable to perform on a test like that and it should be eliminated for him.

sarahsweets
11-30-16, 11:40 AM
I've spoken to several parents in my area that have children with ADHD or other issues that impede their learning in some way. I have seen time and time again that they call a 504 or an IEP meeting to eliminate a standard, rather than trying to work WITHIN the standard.

A good example is that in 9th grade literature 20% of your final grade is based on a standardized test. One mother, who has 4 Special Education children, called an IEP meeting where she explained that it was unreasonable for her child's grade to depend on a standardized test and she wanted that standard eliminated. The panel tried to work with her to determine accommodations that would help her kid like having the passages read to him, extended time...etc. However, she was firm that her child was unable to perform on a test like that and it should be eliminated for him.

I think if there is an equal viable way to test in lit, it should be considered. My son had a scribe and oral instructions due to dysgraphia and dyslexia- this helped out with tests. Although IMO all standardized tests should be eliminated because I dont think there is a standard way for anyone, adhd or not to demonstrate what they learned in that way. I have a BA in English Lit and I did much better on essay and fill in the blank tests-awful on multiple choice tests.

Lunacie
11-30-16, 12:10 PM
I've spoken to several parents in my area that have children with ADHD or other issues that impede their learning in some way. I have seen time and time again that they call a 504 or an IEP meeting to eliminate a standard, rather than trying to work WITHIN the standard.

A good example is that in 9th grade literature 20% of your final grade is based on a standardized test. One mother, who has 4 Special Education children, called an IEP meeting where she explained that it was unreasonable for her child's grade to depend on a standardized test and she wanted that standard eliminated. The panel tried to work with her to determine accommodations that would help her kid like having the passages read to him, extended time...etc. However, she was firm that her child was unable to perform on a test like that and it should be eliminated for him.

We've always let the school staff take the lead on issues like that, they have
ideas on accomodations we know nothing about. But we've been taking our
mental health case manager with us to IEP meetings from the start.

The only emergency IEP we've ever demanded was when a substitute told my
autistic granddaughter that if she wasn't potty trained she wouldn't be able to
move on to the 2nd grade. We made sure that no one else had that kind of
idea and no one else was saying things like that to my granddaughter.

We fought for years over their accusation that she was being manipulative in
wetting her pants so that she could get out of doing math class. A kid who has
trouble verbalizing her feelings may sometimes look like they're being mani-
pulative in order to get what they need, but she didn't have any control over
her bladder until she was a pre-teen. If she couldn't control it not to pee, she
couldn't control it to pee when she wanted it to for Pete's sake. :mad:

BellaVita
11-30-16, 01:58 PM
Sure, let me start by saying it wasn't meant as a derogatory statement. It's been my experience when talking and working with most autistic children that drawing them into a conversation or showing them how to do something...well...they just aren't really WITH me. They visit my world for brief times but often it's like they are seeing things and perceiving things that I am not. i.e. in another world.

Thank you for explaining.

I'm still not understanding parts though - what do you mean by "aren't really WITH you"?

I think I sort of get the second part. Yes, we do experience the world differently, at least I think so. I think our sensory experience is much more amplified. I have zero ability to filter out noises, for example. Every noise I hear - the electricity running, cars passing by on the streets, people talking - it is all at the same volume. All heard at once. The sun is so bright to me, it causes me pain. Even on cloudy days it is sometimes too bright. Colors near me and in my area can be overwhelming. Etc...etc....

I don't think we see things others don't, unless there is psychosis along with autism. Like if you're speaking of hallucinating. Or maybe you meant "see" in a metaphorical way?

We are in the same world, we just experience it a bit differently.

Caco3girl
11-30-16, 03:38 PM
Thank you for explaining.

I'm still not understanding parts though - what do you mean by "aren't really WITH you"?

I think I sort of get the second part. Yes, we do experience the world differently, at least I think so. I think our sensory experience is much more amplified. I have zero ability to filter out noises, for example. Every noise I hear - the electricity running, cars passing by on the streets, people talking - it is all at the same volume. All heard at once. The sun is so bright to me, it causes me pain. Even on cloudy days it is sometimes too bright. Colors near me and in my area can be overwhelming. Etc...etc....

I don't think we see things others don't, unless there is psychosis along with autism. Like if you're speaking of hallucinating. Or maybe you meant "see" in a metaphorical way?

We are in the same world, we just experience it a bit differently.

I'm not talking about hallucinations....oh gee how to explain. I once had a very difficult lesson with an autistic boy. The kid was staring at me, then trying not to look at me, then back to staring...he wasn't hearing me at all, zero acknowledgment that I was even talking. After about 5 minutes of this his helper was able to explain that the color red is very LOUD to him, and because my shirt was red he could NOT move past that and listen to anything I said. In that case I adapted to him, I never wore a red shirt again on a day I knew I would have a lesson with him, but he wasn't WITH me in this world. I don't know what the color red triggered in his head but he was nearly uncommunicative, whereas in the past we had had some issues but it had never been like that.

BellaVita
12-01-16, 06:03 PM
I'm not talking about hallucinations....oh gee how to explain. I once had a very difficult lesson with an autistic boy. The kid was staring at me, then trying not to look at me, then back to staring...he wasn't hearing me at all, zero acknowledgment that I was even talking. After about 5 minutes of this his helper was able to explain that the color red is very LOUD to him, and because my shirt was red he could NOT move past that and listen to anything I said. In that case I adapted to him, I never wore a red shirt again on a day I knew I would have a lesson with him, but he wasn't WITH me in this world. I don't know what the color red triggered in his head but he was nearly uncommunicative, whereas in the past we had had some issues but it had never been like that.

I see. Thanks for explaining. :)

It sounds like his sensory issues might have been much, or maybe he has synesthesia too. Glad you figured out to not wear the red shirt again. :)

I'm still confused why you say "he wasn't WITH me in this world"?

I don't think it is fair or necessarily right to say that he wasn't WITH you in this world simply because he is autistic and was not communicating?

We are here, we're always here, we haven't left the world. People just sometimes have trouble understanding us, and we sometimes have trouble understanding other people. Sometimes we might not communicate effectively or may seem like we aren't communicating at all.

But we are here, with you.

BellaVita
12-01-16, 06:12 PM
I should mention, when I was a kid - I had lots of wires attached to my head and my brain activity looked at because my parents believed I was deliberately not listening to them. That I was disobeying them on purpose when they would directly tell me things and I didn't do it, or other times when they would talk to me and I wouldn't respond.

It turns out my ears worked fine, but the test results came back and the doctor explained that I do not "hear" people speaking sometimes, explained that it is like having gauze wrapped tightly around my head, and that it's a brain thing and not my fault. That I didn't hear my parents talking to me sometimes even if they were speaking to me and it seemed like I must've heard.

Btw I didn't even know I was getting tested or had an issue with hearing people.

Anyway I believe it is all part of just the way I am because of being autistic, but just because I don't process or "hear" people telling me things sometimes or may seem blank or non communicative doesn't mean I'm not here in this world.

Caco3girl
12-02-16, 01:58 PM
I should mention, when I was a kid - I had lots of wires attached to my head and my brain activity looked at because my parents believed I was deliberately not listening to them. That I was disobeying them on purpose when they would directly tell me things and I didn't do it, or other times when they would talk to me and I wouldn't respond.

It turns out my ears worked fine, but the test results came back and the doctor explained that I do not "hear" people speaking sometimes, explained that it is like having gauze wrapped tightly around my head, and that it's a brain thing and not my fault. That I didn't hear my parents talking to me sometimes even if they were speaking to me and it seemed like I must've heard.

Btw I didn't even know I was getting tested or had an issue with hearing people.

Anyway I believe it is all part of just the way I am because of being autistic, but just because I don't process or "hear" people telling me things sometimes or may seem blank or non communicative doesn't mean I'm not here in this world.

This right there was why I described it as not being in this world. If a person is standing in front of you and you are talking to them and they are looking at you and they don't acknowledge anything you have said, or even attempt to read your lips...they stand there like a doll, what would you call it? I was once with an autistic child in one of these non-communicative states when a bookcase shelf collapsed. No one was hurt, just a bunch of books fell to the floor and made a loud noise,the child didn't even blink. It was experiences like this that lead me to use the term not in this world...do you have another way to describe it?

My ADHD son may not hear me at first but once I get him to come back by saying his name or touching his shoulder he's back and we can talk. My experience with Autistic children are that they are just sometimes gone and they will not come back until they are ready to.

Lunacie
12-02-16, 02:18 PM
This right there was why I described it as not being in this world. If a person is standing in front of you and you are talking to them and they are looking at you and they don't acknowledge anything you have said, or even attempt to read your lips...they stand there like a doll, what would you call it? I was once with an autistic child in one of these non-communicative states when a bookcase shelf collapsed. No one was hurt, just a bunch of books fell to the floor and made a loud noise,the child didn't even blink. It was experiences like this that lead me to use the term not in this world...do you have another way to describe it?

My ADHD son may not hear me at first but once I get him to come back by saying his name or touching his shoulder he's back and we can talk. My experience with Autistic children are that they are just sometimes gone and they will not come back until they are ready to.

What you describe is generally called Withdrawal or Shutdown caused by
Sensory Overload.

http://www.autism.org.uk/sensory

The autistic person has not gone away to another world, they've gone inside
themselves. Since they can't physically escape from the Sensory Overload,
they retreat within themselves.

There's so much sensory stuff bombarding them that they can't focus on just
one thing, like a person standing face-to-face talking, or the bookcase falling.

“It’s like when your computer freezes because there are too many tasks open or a task is stuck. And your brain hits ‘Ctrl-Alt-Del’ automatically. In my case, this means sudden fatigue, balance problems, speaking problems, disorientation.” — Zahra Khan


https://themighty.com/2016/02/people-explain-what-sensory-overload-feels-like/

BellaVita
12-02-16, 09:38 PM
This right there was why I described it as not being in this world. If a person is standing in front of you and you are talking to them and they are looking at you and they don't acknowledge anything you have said, or even attempt to read your lips...they stand there like a doll, what would you call it? I was once with an autistic child in one of these non-communicative states when a bookcase shelf collapsed. No one was hurt, just a bunch of books fell to the floor and made a loud noise,the child didn't even blink. It was experiences like this that lead me to use the term not in this world...do you have another way to describe it?

Lunacie made some really good points and this is basically repeating what she said....If they were autistic, I wouldn't know for sure what was going on, but it could be called shutdown, or having trouble processing auditory information, or sensory overload, or a mix of those even. Maybe even losing the ability to speak, going mute.

I want to assure you we are still "here" in this world when those things occur. We are just different and process things differently and may sometimes have trouble expressing ourselves verbally/communicating and have different body language. :)

My ADHD son may not hear me at first but once I get him to come back by saying his name or touching his shoulder he's back and we can talk. My experience with Autistic children are that they are just sometimes gone and they will not come back until they are ready to.

I guess I can see how it can seem that they are "gone."

But it's actually just a different way of being. We never leave our bodies. We may be unable to communicate or show that we want to communicate. Or maybe we are misunderstood sometimes. But we never "leave" like as in there isn't a human being there with you anymore.

You are right though that they can't communicate in the way wanted by the listener until they are ready/able to.

peripatetic
12-03-16, 04:48 AM
I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.

you don't have autism though, correct? so, people telling you their experiences with it supersede your observations and suppositions about the minds of others, i would think.

some of your posts sound incredibly cynical on this thread. i find it unsettling.

i think the point though i wanted to discuss the book and i get you've not read it, but it seems you are disagreeing with it without any real grounds to do so. and i'm unsure why you've moved to pass judgment on the experiences of those on the spectrum, unless you are...i'm sorry i don't really know what your diagnostic situation is.

your "shrug" seemed to be shrugging off the ideas that you've not read and arguing against it.

i'm possibly a bit discombobulated, but i'm skimming through this thread and it seems like you're going quite a distance to tell people on the spectrum what they're like instead of listening to them tell you what they're like and accepting that their firsthand experience outweighs yours, by definition.

peripatetic
12-04-16, 11:59 PM
so, i read through again and thought i'd share an excerpt from the book that explains why i think it's an important read for me. because these goals are my goals. and i'm committed to finding alternatives to punishment/reward models because i think the numerous studies he cites showing that that encourages self interest and reduces social responsibility and social conscience... i don't want to tread any political lines here so i'll leave it at that or am happy to discuss in debates, so i'll leave it at that.

anyway, in chapter ten entitled "the child's perspective" he opens,

how do we raise our children to be happy? that's an important question, but here's another one: how do we raise our children to be concerned about whether other people are happy?

it's important that we don't allow the first issue to upstage the second--or, for that matter, that we don't spend more energy trying to get kids to be polite and well behaved than on trying to help them become genuinely compassionate and committed to doing the right thing. we need to focus on our children's moral* development.

to do so is to recast various ideas that are discussed in other parenting books. for example, "boundaries" and "limits" are usually thought of as restrictions that adults impose on children. but shouldn't our goal be for the children to refrain from doing certain things not because we've forbidden them, but just because they're wrong? the limits on kids' behavior, in other words, should be experienced as intrinsic to the situation. we want them to ask "how will doing x make that other kid feel?"--not "am i allowed to do x?" or "will i get in trouble for doing x?"

this is an ambitious goal, but not an unrealistic one because we have good material to work with. human beings are born with the capacity to care. thus, parents hoping to raise a child who is responsive to the needs of others already have "an ally within the child," as martin hoffman once put it.

of course, that doesn't mean that kids will automatically grow into ethical people if left to their own devices. they need our help. to begin with, they need us to stop doing things that interfere with moral growth, things like punishments and rewards, which are rooted in--and underscore a child's preoccupation with--self-interest. the elimination of these staples of traditional discipline is an important step toward helping children become attuned to the well-being of others...

(bolding mine)
*i would substitute "ethical", but "moral" is what he uses here

Caco3girl
12-05-16, 11:11 AM
you don't have autism though, correct? so, people telling you their experiences with it supersede your observations and suppositions about the minds of others, i would think.

some of your posts sound incredibly cynical on this thread. i find it unsettling.

i think the point though i wanted to discuss the book and i get you've not read it, but it seems you are disagreeing with it without any real grounds to do so. and i'm unsure why you've moved to pass judgment on the experiences of those on the spectrum, unless you are...i'm sorry i don't really know what your diagnostic situation is.

your "shrug" seemed to be shrugging off the ideas that you've not read and arguing against it.

i'm possibly a bit discombobulated, but i'm skimming through this thread and it seems like you're going quite a distance to tell people on the spectrum what they're like instead of listening to them tell you what they're like and accepting that their firsthand experience outweighs yours, by definition.

I have not read the book and I am not autistic. I was responding to something that was posted with my first post. My shrug really was meant to display, as stated, to each their own. I personally am not interested in exploring unconditional parenting with my children because I think children need hard rules, as long as the reasons for the rules are explained and it's not a dictatorship.

The autism discussion kind of spiraled away from the thread because I made a reference comparing and contrasting autistic vs ADHD. Some people who have autism, or more experience with autism, were disagreeing with my interpretation of what I had been seeing. It was more of a clarification discussion, not meant to be cynical.

Lunacie
12-05-16, 12:15 PM
Shrug, to each their own. Every kid is different, I hope that by telling my kids the reasons why I handled the situations the way I handled them, it will help them to understand their own moral compasses. As my 14 year old gets older I can see the defiance in his eyes that he disagrees, I then ask him why he disagrees. 9 times out of 10 he didn't understand my reasoning, so I explained it again, but every now and then he does have a different take on things that makes me reevaluate.

I don't think any kind of dictatorship would work with a child, they need to know they have a voice in their life. However, my kids are also aware of certain expectations and rules, and they are unbreakable. If you do not have an 80% average in your core subjects you are grounded is an example of one. Notice I didn't say an 80% in ALL subjects, I said an average. My boy dislikes science with a passion, I am lucky if he is passing, but a higher math grade (which he loves) can compensate for his science grade. He has the power over if he is grounded, but he also knows it is a firm rule.

That sounds like you expect your child to listen and consider what you're explaining as your reasons.

And you also are willing to listen to your child if he doesn't agree with your reasoning. That's good.

I have not read the book and I am not autistic. I was responding to something that was posted with my first post. My shrug really was meant to display, as stated, to each their own. I personally am not interested in exploring unconditional parenting with my children because I think children need hard rules, as long as the reasons for the rules are explained and it's not a dictatorship.

The autism discussion kind of spiraled away from the thread because I made a reference comparing and contrasting autistic vs ADHD. Some people who have autism, or more experience with autism, were disagreeing with my interpretation of what I had been seeing. It was more of a clarification discussion, not meant to be cynical.

As you aren't interested in reading anything about the book or the subject of unconditional parenting,
I don't understand why you decided to join the discussion. :scratch:

Caco3girl
12-05-16, 12:30 PM
it's more about developing a child with a social conscience or ethical compass or however you prefer to phrase it. more about respect and love and steering away from coercion or carrot/stick, punishment/reward systems. it's a process though, not a how to list.

i think of self regulation as still, with respect to ADHD, quite possibly needing more than love to develop self regulation. this would be less about shaping behaviour in favor of fostering creation of self. kids without self regulation still can need medication or other treatments.

with length, i want to say it's under 250. i just take forever nowadays...

To answer the question of why I posted on this topic...the above in bold is why. While I have not read the book, as I think everyone else who posted on this topic has not read the book, I believe strongly that behavior can be shaped when the parent shares their own moral compass and it's included in the carrot/stick, punishment/reward system.

I think sharing our experience and views on the world is a great help to our children. While I am showing them MY moral compass and MY conscience I think that is all valuable information. Why let them flounder to figure out right and wrong? As they get older they will decide for themselves what they truly believe is right and wrong, but there will be many times in their lives that they will have to follow someone elses belief system, such as their boss, and they may not agree but they DO have to follow it if they want to not get in trouble. Our society is based on the punishment/reward system so why not raise our kids that way?

Lunacie
12-05-16, 03:37 PM
To answer the question of why I posted on this topic...the above in bold is why. While I have not read the book, as I think everyone else who posted on this topic has not read the book, I believe strongly that behavior can be shaped when the parent shares their own moral compass and it's included in the carrot/stick, punishment/reward system.

I think sharing our experience and views on the world is a great help to our children. While I am showing them MY moral compass and MY conscience I think that is all valuable information. Why let them flounder to figure out right and wrong? As they get older they will decide for themselves what they truly believe is right and wrong, but there will be many times in their lives that they will have to follow someone elses belief system, such as their boss, and they may not agree but they DO have to follow it if they want to not get in trouble. Our society is based on the punishment/reward system so why not raise our kids that way?

Who said anything about letting the child "flounder?"

You start simple, give a child two choices: this food or that food?
This shirt or that shirt?
Read this book or listen to a song at bedtime?
Wear your coat or carry it?
Put on your shoes yourself or have some help?

If you don't like the food they chose, you've learned something about what you like or don't like.
If they get cold they can put the coat on.
It's bedtime, no choice there, but you can choose a book or a music video.
No choice about wearing shoes, but you can choose to put them on yourself
or have someone do it for you.

So when they grow up and get a job, they know that even when it seems like
there isn't a choice, like with the boss, there is still a choice.
Discuss the options that the boss may not have considered, get along or get out.

It's about naturally-following consequences rather than arbitrary punishment or reward.

peripatetic
12-05-16, 05:08 PM
Why let them flounder to figure out right and wrong?


i'm with luna...nobody said "let them flounder". in fact, in the excerpt i quoted he states clearly:


of course, that doesn't mean that kids will automatically grow into ethical people if left to their own devices. they need our help.

As they get older they will decide for themselves what they truly believe is right and wrong, but there will be many times in their lives that they will have to follow someone elses belief system, such as their boss, and they may not agree but they DO have to follow it if they want to not get in trouble.


actually, one of the points he makes in the book is to cite numerous studies indicating that they WON'T be equipped to decide for themselves what's right/wrong intrinsically because they've been coerced into seeing right/wrong as a function of consequences only, and, specifically, consequences that promote/deny them their self interests.

and with having to follow others' systems, like a boss...i would rather my child stand up and refuse to do something unethical regardless of whether her "boss" tells her to. and it seems reasonable to me that fostering that ability in her requires me to cultivate her developing her own critical thinking and ethical compass, and if i'm only telling her what's right/wrong and punishing/reward based on whether she complies...the only thinking she's doing is how to manipulate a system.

Our society is based on the punishment/reward system so why not raise our kids that way?

because my perspective/belief/position is that the system is flawed and we can do better than promulgating it...we can do better than teaching to act from self interest; e.g. to act to avoid getting into trouble, to be utilitarians.

sarahsweets
12-06-16, 05:01 AM
For the record... I didnt read the book either I kind of ran with the topic, I hope thats ok. And I dont think I am some parental guru but I come from a place of experience in having an adult child now, a 16 year old and a 13 year old all with adhd and other comorbids. My son will be 21 in Feb. He was the first child to very young parents. ( I was 20). I taught him about compassion and empathy, sympathy and kindness. I taught him to be a free-thinker even if it means thinking differently then I do. I taught him to respect women and himself. I taught him to treasure memories and to not sweat the small stuff. When he played 'camping' in the woods behind our house with the neighborhood kids and tried lighting an actual fire at 8 years old- we made him apologize to each child's parents. We didnt let him in the woods for awhile. We did not ground him or take something away because after the fact I think the punishment part would have been more about making me feel like I was an adequate parent, and not about teaching him anything.

When he stole a lolipop from the convienence store, I made him go in with money and buy it. I didnt shame him. I tried to teach him how you are supposed to acquire things in this world. When he was a sophomore he went through a period where his politics were very pro-gun/conservative which were not at all what we believed in our house, and I listened to him make his case for what he thought I should support. I gritted my teeth, disagreed and let him find his own way. We sure butted heads-but never did I shame, or punish him. I tried very hard to have him experience natural consequences-and if there were no obvious ones-I did my best to talk to him about it. The few times I lost my temper and did punish him was purely because I was angry that he disobeyed me and I wanted to make him feel bad about it.
Ive learned

He is 20 now and a great person.I can say that with confidence.Looking at him I know that despite my alcoholism, depression and bipolar, I still raised a good human. He isnt without fault, but he isnt cruel or mean.
My daughters are on this path as well- but differently. They get the kinder, softer and thoughtful mom-someone with more patience and time for them. With their brother, I had to work, go to school and take care of him.
I dont know how to wrap this up very well.
And I dont want anyone to think I am bragging or a know-it-all.I just wanted to share my perspective.

mildadhd
08-20-17, 07:36 PM
it's more about developing a child with a social conscience or ethical compass or however you prefer to phrase it. more about respect and love and steering away from coercion or carrot/stick, punishment/reward systems. it's a process though, not a how to list.

i think of self regulation as still, with respect to ADHD, quite possibly needing more than love to develop self regulation. this would be less about shaping behaviour in favor of fostering creation of self. kids without self regulation still can need medication or other treatments.

with length, i want to say it's under 250. i just take forever nowadays...

I will look for the book, and after I finish it ..

..could we discuss these topics in parts, in posts under 250 , over a long period of time?

Because I mostly agree, and i am not sure why we are appearing to disagree?

Edit: It might have something to do with context?

Let me get back to you after I read the book.


G

I downloaded the audiobook.

Have listened to 4 chapters, and I recommend the audiobook to every family.

Thanks peripatetic.

I understand now, what you mean.

So far, in my own words, I would equate it to the difference between the child who receives loving attachment needs but lacks more complex individual attunement needs.

Children with AD(H)D temperaments have even more attunement needs than normal.

This is a great book so far.

I want to listen to the whole audiobook before I comment more.

Looking forward to discussing the information focusing on terminologies the author prefers in about a week, when I finish.






M

peripatetic
08-20-17, 10:45 PM
it's been a really useful perspective for me to have read. i can't even count the number of times e has wanted to do something or been frustrated at her inability to communicate (especially before she could talk very well and even still at 2.5) and when i stop and get on her level and try to figure out WITH HER what's wrong and how we can work together... it has (touch wood) thus far worked.

example:

the other day we were going to brother in law's. we wanted her to get into the vehicle. she lost it and wanted to play chalk. i took a minute to realize she was under slept (her nap that day was only twenty minutes), she hadn't eaten a great deal, and we'd given her 1/2 a dramamine (she has car sickness to the point of vomiting for anything that's longer than a thirty minute ride...and even then it can happen), and we were asking her to get into her carseat, which she's not the biggest fan of.

i ended up asking her if we did chalk for ten minutes whilst eating a light snack, telling her that i understood we're asking a lot and it's frustrating, if we could play chalk for a bit and then get into the car seat. she agreed. brother in law got a call that we'd be a good fifteen minutes late, which he understood. she played for less than ten minutes, ate an apple, and climbed up into the seat herself.

i really like the book.

mildadhd
08-28-17, 12:28 AM
it's been a really useful perspective for me to have read. i can't even count the number of times e has wanted to do something or been frustrated at her inability to communicate (especially before she could talk very well and even still at 2.5) and when i stop and get on her level and try to figure out WITH HER what's wrong and how we can work together... it has (touch wood) thus far worked.

example:

the other day we were going to brother in law's. we wanted her to get into the vehicle. she lost it and wanted to play chalk. i took a minute to realize she was under slept (her nap that day was only twenty minutes), she hadn't eaten a great deal, and we'd given her 1/2 a dramamine (she has car sickness to the point of vomiting for anything that's longer than a thirty minute ride...and even then it can happen), and we were asking her to get into her carseat, which she's not the biggest fan of.

i ended up asking her if we did chalk for ten minutes whilst eating a light snack, telling her that i understood we're asking a lot and it's frustrating, if we could play chalk for a bit and then get into the car seat. she agreed. brother in law got a call that we'd be a good fifteen minutes late, which he understood. she played for less than ten minutes, ate an apple, and climbed up into the seat herself.

i really like the book.



Thanks Peripatetic

Your example above is exactly what I have been trying to express for several years.

This is really fun learning these things with you and everyone.

I think I am more preverbal. :D

These discussions really help me to learn to verbally express what I am feeling.


(14:26) ..There is a big difference after all, between a child who does something because he or she believes it's the right thing to do, and one who does it out of a sense of compulsion. Ensuring the children internalize our values isn't the same thing as helping them to develop their own. And it's diametrically apposed to the goal of having kids become independent thinkers...

-Alfie Kohn, "Unconditional Parenting", (Audiobook) Introduction.


M

mildadhd
08-28-17, 01:05 AM
There are parts in National Geographic's tv series "Einstein", when Einstein is separated from his young sons' without visiting them for several years, because of factors including work, war and the divorce. In a scene Albert Einstein visits his son in the hospital after Einstein learns his son tried to commit suicide. Until then Einstein assumed his sons' knew that he loved them. But when he saw his son in the hospital Einstein realized, perhaps his son did not know his father loved him.




(Paraphrasing)




M

Lunacie
08-28-17, 10:55 AM
it's been a really useful perspective for me to have read. i can't even count the number of times e has wanted to do something or been frustrated at her inability to communicate (especially before she could talk very well and even still at 2.5) and when i stop and get on her level and try to figure out WITH HER what's wrong and how we can work together... it has (touch wood) thus far worked.

example:

the other day we were going to brother in law's. we wanted her to get into the vehicle. she lost it and wanted to play chalk. i took a minute to realize she was under slept (her nap that day was only twenty minutes), she hadn't eaten a great deal, and we'd given her 1/2 a dramamine (she has car sickness to the point of vomiting for anything that's longer than a thirty minute ride...and even then it can happen), and we were asking her to get into her carseat, which she's not the biggest fan of.

i ended up asking her if we did chalk for ten minutes whilst eating a light snack, telling her that i understood we're asking a lot and it's frustrating, if we could play chalk for a bit and then get into the car seat. she agreed. brother in law got a call that we'd be a good fifteen minutes late, which he understood. she played for less than ten minutes, ate an apple, and climbed up into the seat herself.

i really like the book.

I guess it's important to take the time to understand our children when they
are young, because once they start school we don't always have the time to
take the time. I woke up this morning to loud voices just before the "bus"
arrived to take my granddaughter to school.

Most of the time my daughter is patient and awesome and will give my GD
space to talk about it ... saying if she doesn't ride on the bus that mommy
will drive her to school because she has to go to school. But this morning
mommy had a doctor's appointment so no time to drive the kiddo to school.

peripatetic
08-28-17, 10:59 AM
I think I am more preverbal. :D



thanks!

one thing i should note is that i say all of the things i said above, and have been talking to her like that for as long as i've read the book. however, until the last couple of months i don't know how much she really understood. now, because she seems to be cognitively "getting" things more, she's got words for all sorts of stuff, and she's like a little learning parrot, i think she understands.

but her agreement was chalk now, eat now. and then after we'd done those things she willingly climbed into her carseat. i think she catches on to a lot of what's said, but only recently been able to verbalize things in her slightly broken fashion.

my hope is that we're laying a good foundation.

mildadhd
08-28-17, 12:34 PM
There are parts in National Geographic's tv series "Einstein", when Einstein is separated from his young sons' without visiting them for several years, because of factors including work, war and the divorce. In a scene Albert Einstein visits his son in the hospital after Einstein learns his son tried to commit suicide. Until then Einstein assumed his sons' knew that he loved them. But when he saw his son in the hospital Einstein realized, perhaps his son did not know his father loved him.




(Paraphrasing)




M

I forgot to includ the quote below in post #56 above.

"P 11..what counts is not just that we believe we love them unconditionally, but that they feel loved in that way"


-Alfie Kohn, "Unconditional Parenting", p 11.




M

mildadhd
08-28-17, 01:11 PM
thanks!

one thing i should note is that i say all of the things i said above, and have been talking to her like that for as long as i've read the book. however, until the last couple of months i don't know how much she really understood. now, because she seems to be cognitively "getting" things more, she's got words for all sorts of stuff, and she's like a little learning parrot, i think she understands.

but her agreement was chalk now, eat now. and then after we'd done those things she willingly climbed into her carseat. i think she catches on to a lot of what's said, but only recently been able to verbalize things in her slightly broken fashion.

my hope is that we're laying a good foundation.

I have a hard time expressing how I feel in words.

I am a step dad so I did not have the option for traditional forms of punishment.

I think I might have made that mistake if I was his biological parent.

I often worried that I should be more strict, when things where not going so well.

But I did not have any other options anyway.

My worries turned out to be unnecessary as I learned my step son took a little longer to learn than some.

Some of my relatives are amazed at how mature and independent thinking my step son is now.

I guess they thought he was doomed because I did not use traditional forms of punishment?

Gabor Mate also refers a lot to "unconditional positive regard" by Carl Rogers, in his book "Scattered. (Keeping attachment and attunement relationship first and foremost.)

There have been times when I had to be more strict raise my voice for safety sake, but I never had much problem getting my step son's attention during those times, I am guessing he could recognize the seriousness in my voice, that was not always present unless necessary.

There are sometimes when I am cranky and always try to apologies after I realize when I am at fault. (My step son will now also apologize after the fact, if he is the cranky)

My step son is in his early 20's now, and now looking back I would not change anything.

We do not hang out as much now, but when we do it is a real blast discussing things with him.

Judging by your previous example, I think you got it already Peripatetic. (It is about unconditional love and individual respect, like you mentioned earlier)

I am looking forward to having this conversation again from your perspective, in about 20 years or so!



M