View Full Version : Stimulant use by the misdiagnosed


Greyhound1
12-08-16, 01:11 AM
I am not sure if this is the right section but it fits the best I can think of for a question I have. I just want people's opinions and not really looking for a "science" discussion. I am just more curious what you guys/gals think. I think your educated opinions on this topic will help me much more. Science is overrated to me compared to people's experiences.

I know, I am not the first here to question an ADHD diagnosis. I feel, I am about 80% sure I am ADHD-PI screw DSM V. My other 20% believes my issues may be caused by anxiety/OCD, SCT and dyslexia. Not sure what's a culprit or what's co-morbid.

My question is what do you think the long term affects would be, taking stimulants at prescribed therapeutic doses for decades of your life, having ADHD VS. NOT HAVING ADHD?

Would stimulants possibly harm a non ADHD brain more so than an ADHD brain? Too much dopamine possibly. Just interested in hearing anyone's unscientific opinions and explanations.

I am just wondering how risky it is to be misdiagnosed and continue to follow treatment.

Thanks for any and all responses!

john2100
12-08-16, 01:44 AM
Science is overrated to me compared to people's experiences.
My grandfather smoked for 80 years 2 packs a day and died when he was 102 in his sleep.Thanks to that experience and many others, I'm been a heavy smoker myself in perfect healh too. So I definitely agree here with you. .

But regarding stimulants in ADD and ADHD ,the negative or positive effects at therapeutic doses should be the same. ADD person doesn;t get the same levels of dopamine with stimulants as non ADHD person without meds.

What are therapeutic doses? Daily mg dosage?

C15H25N3O
12-08-16, 05:30 AM
I think amphetamines affect brains of diagnosed ADHDs and undiagnosed non-ADHDs
in the same way depending on hitting the sweetspot of dopamine-levels and norepinephrine-
levels but also adrenaline, histamine, glutamate and serotonine in relation to the users personality.
I believe amphetamines never could fit perfectly to regulate someones neuro-chemics-deficits
because the meds are standard formulas but our brains are not standardized cloned like
the amphetamine pills.

Having a ADHD diagnose or not can not evaluate if someone benefits from amphetamines effects
but one thing is sure amphetamines at low dosages can improve everyones life-quality having also
undiagnosed neuro-chemical deficits. There is a reason why people abuse the meds: They feel
better or function better. On the other side you can be diagnosed or not and feel worse or function
worse with the meds.

From that thinking having or not having a prescription and using or abusing the amphetamines
I honestly believe there is no difference between being diagnosed or not. Therapeutical dosages
can be manipulated by the patient to get a stronger effect and a therapeutical dosage cannot be
measured by neuro-chemical levels in our brains as we are no clones again. The effects of the meds
are only emotional-measurable by a psychiatrist knowledge, empathy and functioning in scociety.

So using the amphetamines with or without a diagnose is only a thumb times pi if using the meds
legal or not.

Methylpenidate is different. I believe it is damaging a non-ADHD brain due to its only reuptake
mechanism. Finally both meds are not only used for ADHD so I dont give a **** who takes them
but I care twice as much for my self and check myselfs condition while having repetitive breaks.

I am diagnosed with ADHD, Autism Spectrum and high intelligence but I also could be diagnosed
with PTSD, a low bi-polarity, low synesthesia, some depressions, low OCD, a huge dyscalculia and
what ever.

I believe our personalities are built of all disgnosable psychiatric spectrums but not every single
needs to be treated but there is a right to feel better if someone feels bad.

Science is just a kind of modern religion. Nothing better – and as idividuals we are not measurable
in empiric studies.

I believe ADHD is a classification of the past and it should be called "neuro-chemical dysbalance"
in the future. On thing is sure: Everyone has a dysbalance but different.

Pilgrim
12-08-16, 06:57 AM
There's a couple of issues hear. I know where your coming from in regards to questioning diagnosis and it's a fair point. In the beginning Stimulints treatment seemed to work and life was zombieland, although I did manage to hold down a job.

I don't know how others feel but a question I like to ask myself is where do medications end and my aptitude sort of kick into high gear.

Watching my family as a youngster was actually like watching high speed accidents one after the other. One crisis after another emotional discord and just not enjoying life in anyway. And you know what happens in this next sequence.

When finally treated, mistreatment was another thunderstorm that I would have rathered to avoid. The team of doctor specialists was just what the doctor ordered. They started the process and weren't money grubbing opportunists that I helped pay there education. They gave me ever facility to profess and make the most out of it. As I trusted my Psyciatrist and immunologist I began to enquire as to why I suffered the way I did, I think what convinced me of ADD was the way they applied treatment ,meds, therapy. And I sort of did not have to ask but I did anyway. I stoped believing that doctors think they know heaps and I wanted to be treated like a customer that is receiving their best. I'm doing most of the work hear.

I think it's really important to understand comorbidities conditions because of symptoms and interactions. I'm always just a bit depressed and I've come to realise this won't change, and although meds help they won't take all the pain away.

I think dyslexia would be a terrible burden, I guess that you can only take one on at a time. And I wish you all gods courage.
I think by reading this forum and knowing who's knowledgable and who's not I really don't believe Stimulints are harmful if used appropriately. If all you think about is Stimulints I think they are integral but their place in effective treatment isn't huge. They help me with the depression and anxiety also.

I do think long term sustained treatment by Stimulints to the non ADD brain is walking on thin ice seriously. I think they do a lot to the mind, hence why dosage and pattern of use is critical.
I just sort of knew I personally had ADD because at times everything in my life just stopped and I was powerless to get my **** going again, I blamed myself and this was hurtful.

Goodluck, Greyhound.

Unmanagable
12-08-16, 08:35 AM
From my experiences of having previous professionals totally ignore the ptsd related events in my life, I've painfully learned that anything I ingest or use on and/or around my being that isn't recognized and healthily processed by my body is just flirting with disaster.

The severity and realization of the results may vary, and may be quite subtle at first, but will very much be present and will only serve to add yet another layer of issues that needs to be healed to the ever-growing list. I had to be the one to put a stop to it because the professionals that my insurance was paying certainly weren't being mindful of the impending disaster(s).

Much of my dis-ease has been a result of things that were beyond my control at the time they happened, and then compounded by many years of unhealthy/bad choices and incomplete/misguided treatment/education, but I didn't truly know any better for myself until now. (it's a hard space to be in when you're suffering so badly yet also tend to be one who likes to question ALL of the authorities ALL of the time)

Dis-ease manifests itself in many different ways. However, until I was able to step away from the cluster f*** of highly stressful events that used to be my full-time job, have the offspring grown and gone, moved to the peaceful space that is known as the forest, and flipped the script on my dietary intake and such, I wasn't able to see it all for what it really was.

Stimulants come to us in many forms. My adrenal glands, et al, no longer wish to handle the tsunami of synthetic options, regardless of the various labels I've acquired through the years. No stimulant has worked as well as improved overall health beginning with my fork and significant environmental changes has felt, thus far.

Mileage always varies depending on the make and model, weather conditions, type of fuel, how well you maintain the engine in between trips, how much baggage is in the trunk, etc., etc. :)

Lunacie
12-08-16, 10:59 AM
I don't think stimulant meds harm the brain of a person with adhd any more
than taking insulin harms the person with diabetes.

I've read that stimulant meds can even help the unregulated parts of the brain
become more regulated (more normal, more connected, more effective).

I have no idea what they might or might not do to the brain of someone without adhd.

Greyhound1
12-08-16, 12:29 PM
What are therapeutic doses? Daily mg dosage?

I was referring to staying within the FDA maximum recommended dosage range for ADHD. For example, I believe it's 40 mg. daily max for Adderall.

I know for narcolepsy it's a higher max. I thinks it's 60 mg/day.

john2100
12-08-16, 02:19 PM
I was referring to staying within the FDA maximum recommended dosage range for ADHD. For example, I believe it's 40 mg. daily max for Adderall.

I know for narcolepsy it's a higher max. I thinks it's 60 mg/day.

60mg/daily max for adderal for ADHD
120mg or more for necrolepsy.

I'm not sure i you read throughout all the responses,but you can't mess up anything with add meds anymore then a person who has ADD and is on meds.

It is not exact science and not all about dopamine. If it was all about dopamine only, it would be an easier fix.

When ADD person takes meds, it doesn't mean that their brain is automatically working the same way as non-ADD brain. That extra dopamine and other effected chemicals help you function better.

The purpose of ADD meds is to help patient replicate as close of possible non ADD brain. But it doesn't mean that medicated ADD brain will work the same as non ADD brain. It will appear to do so with stimulants but the exact mechanism of action and ADHD disorder is not known it.

So to sum up, you can't do anymore damage then an ADD person who is on meds.
60mg or 40 mg are equally high doses for ADD or no -ADD people and the negative effects and positive effects should be the same for both groups.

Greyhound1
12-08-16, 09:26 PM
60mg/daily max for adderal for ADHD
120mg or more for necrolepsy.

I am pretty sure with Adderall IR it's 40 mg. daily max for ADHD. 60 mg. for narcolepsy. Unless, it has recently changed this is what I've gone with below. Do you have any conflicting literature you could post?
https://www.cms.gov/Medicare-Medicaid-Coordination/Fraud-Prevention/Medicaid-Integrity-Education/Pharmacy-Education-Materials/Downloads/stim-adult-dosingchart.pdf

C15H25N3O
12-08-16, 09:59 PM
Ok, thinking never stops:
You could read wikipedias enhancing performance on amphetamines and check
if they affect you like a non-ADHD or if there is something else affecting you like this.
(wikipedia is not scientific)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine#Enhancing_performance

john2100
12-08-16, 10:12 PM
I am pretty sure with Adderall IR it's 40 mg. daily max for ADHD. 60 mg. for narcolepsy. Unless, it has recently changed this is what I've gone with below. Do you have any conflicting literature you could post?
https://www.cms.gov/Medicare-Medicaid-Coordination/Fraud-Prevention/Medicaid-Integrity-Education/Pharmacy-Education-Materials/Downloads/stim-adult-dosingchart.pdf

maybe medicare and medicate has different guidelines. Also in OTHER INFORMATION it says , only in rare cases will it be necessary to exceed a total of 40mg per day

https://providers.amerigroup.com/Public%20Documents/KSKS_CAID_RequiredADHDMaxDoseLimits.pdf

I can't find a maximum dosage on FDA website, you can ask your insurance to call FDA, or you can call or have your doctor verify the max. dosage

Too many people take over 40mg a day for adhd, so even if you were right, there is a way around it.
I'm sure doctors are not risking their licence when they go over 40mg. But i'm pretty sure it is 60mg daily for non medicare and medicate

C15H25N3O
12-08-16, 10:35 PM
What is the goal of a therapeutic dosage?
Is it optimizing deficits, making malfunction
functioning, building a happier emotional base?
Why do we experience side-effects?

What is the limit?

leah.faith
12-08-16, 10:49 PM
ADD drugs do chemically the exact same thing to people with or without ADD. So you'll have no more or less damage to your brain than someone who takes ADD drugs for fun.

(science-y stuff ahead)
ADD drugs cause a build up of dopamine between the dopamine transmitters and receptors in the brain (the space is called the synapses) . Whether your transmitters aren't releasing enough or your receptors aren't taking enough or the reuptake* of dopamine is happening too fast or too much, Ritalin and Adderall both cause excess dopamine in the synapses. But this also happens in people who don't have ADD.

*(if theres too much dopamine in your synapses, the transmitters take back some of the dopamine and store it for later. The medication prevents this from happening)

If theres a lot of dopamine sitting in the synapses, the receptors have more time to take it in, which is why you feel focused for long periods of time.

People without ADD feel more "high" from ADD medication, for sure. But they also get the same benefits because it does essentially the same thing.

Greyhound1
12-08-16, 10:52 PM
What is the goal of a therapeutic dosage?
Is it optimizing deficits, making malfunction
functioning, building a happier emotional base?
Why do we experience side-effects?

What is the limit?

I personally feel that's the goal of therapeutic doses. I think side effects indicate taking more or less of the optimal dose or perhaps the wrong medication. Lifestyle, eating and sleeping habits etc. contribute as well IMO.

I think the limit is when side effects outweigh the benefits to me.

john2100
12-08-16, 10:55 PM
What is the goal of a therapeutic dosage?
Is it optimizing deficits, making malfunction
functioning, building a happier emotional base?
Why do we experience side-effects?

What is the limit?


I see what you are doing, but I think OP is not at that point yet. He wants to take it because he sees the benefits. Everybody has to come to the conclusion you came to on their own or ask for that kind of help. Your idea about micro dosing is truly excellent, the best I ever heard on this forum . I wish doctors would realize that therapeutic dose is 1mg and not 40mg ,but if shire , sorry I meant FDA recommend a staring dose 20mg adderall a day,,,how insane is that,But i have to stop here.

C15H25N3O
12-08-16, 11:14 PM
Four question marks mean nothing else but questioning; no intention.

The only excellence about micro-dosaging I believe is it works like a
diet or to avoid a crash when taking huge dosages and having some
amphetamine breaks. 7 days a week 60mg of adderall are 420mg a
week. so why not 210mg twice a week or 420mg once a week to go
to amphetamine-church? :faint:

john2100
12-08-16, 11:30 PM
Four question marks mean nothing else but questioning; no intention.

The only excellence about micro-dosaging I believe is it works like a
diet or to avoid a crash when taking huge dosages and having some
amphetamine breaks. 7 days a week 60mg of adderall are 420mg a
week. so why not 210mg twice a week or 420mg once a week to go
to amphetamine-church? :faint:

There are many more benefits, but I don't wanna hi-jack the tread,the biggest one is psychological that outweighs the physiological for me.

aeon
12-08-16, 11:36 PM
Unmedicated, I am a daydreaming spaceflake, in a chronic state of dissociation, in a constant search for stimulation so my brain will "wake up."

I am diagnosed with ADHD-PI (yeah baby, DSM-IV old school, lol). That diagnosis fits better than anything else, but I think it is just as likely that I have a developmental trauma disorder from a childhood where I was concussed more times than I can remember.

Then I think of my father, Captain Oblivious, and wonder if I got the double whammy of a cracked bell that was rung quite often.

Regardless, one thing I know for sure is Dexedrine is a miracle to me. I mean, I can now hold a job long-term, these days I don't (often) drive my car in excess of 85mph on public roads, and I am on time for things more often than not.

Granted, I am hotwiring and jumpstarting my brain and nervous system every morning with three different psychostimulants, and maybe one day I'll slip a lobe because of that. Until then, this is the best working solution I have found yet that offers me a chance at living a life that has some measure of meaning, control, and self-direction.

Without meds, I am playful, and I put on a good dog and pony show, but it becomes a way to distract myself and forget that, in truth, I am a hot mess.

Better living through chemistry, I say.

I'm not really worried about Dex changing my brain. Like a pair of shoes already scuffed, I don't have anything pristine and unsullied to protect or defend.

Plus, there was a time in my life when I regularly took LSD. I cast psychopharmacologic caution to the four winds long, long ago.


Best to You,
Ian

Greyhound1
12-09-16, 12:50 AM
Unmedicated, I am a daydreaming spaceflake, in a chronic state of dissociation, in a constant search for stimulation so my brain will "wake up."

I am diagnosed with ADHD-PI (yeah baby, DSM-IV old school, lol). That diagnosis fits better than anything else, but I think it is just as likely that I have a developmental trauma disorder from a childhood where I was concussed more times than I can remember.

Then I think of my father, Captain Oblivious, and wonder if I got the double whammy of a cracked bell that was rung quite often.

Regardless, one thing I know for sure is Dexedrine is a miracle to me. I mean, I can now hold a job long-term, these days I don't (often) drive my car in excess of 85mph on public roads, and I am on time for things more often than not.

Granted, I am hotwiring and jumpstarting my brain and nervous system every morning with three different psychostimulants, and maybe one day I'll slip a lobe because of that. Until then, this is the best working solution I have found yet that offers me a chance at living a life that has some measure of meaning, control, and self-direction.

Without meds, I am playful, and I put on a good dog and pony show, but it becomes a way to distract myself and forget that, in truth, I am a hot mess.

Better living through chemistry, I say.

I'm not really worried about Dex changing my brain. Like a pair of shoes already scuffed, I don't have anything pristine and unsullied to protect or defend.

Plus, there was a time in my life when I regularly took LSD. I cast psychopharmacologic caution to the four winds long, long ago.


Best to You,
Ian
I relate with you Ian, probably as one of the best on the forum. My symptoms are the same and our childhood stories are right in line with each other's. I got up to 115 mph up an empty off ramp 3 mos. ago. Didn't go faster only because the ramp was running out coming to an intersection.

I did that medicated!:o Well, actually probably not well medicated. I don't take my afternoon dose so it had been about 12 hrs. It was just a wild impulse to see how fast I could get up to before the ramp ended.

Anyway, sorry to get off track. I think, I question my diagnosis only because I don't get great results from meds. I know they help me but not close to the extent Dex. helps you.

I've been through titrations with Adderall, Dextroamphetamine, Vyvanse, Provigil and Straterra.

Adderall and Dex. have been the best by far. I just can't seem to find a dose that works consistently. One day it's too little and one day it's too much. I currently take my dose based each day on how I feel.

My Dr is fine with it as long as I don't exceed my prescribed dosage. I never do and normally have better results with much less.

I feel like stimulants really help but don't seem as effective as they could or should be.

I was mainly wondering if I am misdiagnosed and continue my life on stimulants, will I do more harm. I know they help much better than nothing and plan on continuing. Maybe my expectations are just too high.

I think the inconsistency of efficacy from day to day causes me questions. Some days they work great and other days not at all. Another factor for me is extreme stress and anxiety. They both can crush my med. effects.

Overall, meds. usually curbs my daily anxiety but really fail when the going gets tough.

I am all over the place right now. Meds. are worn off.:) Anyway, I just hope if I was misdiagnosed and taking stimulants at relatively low doses won't be extra detrimental to a brain that can't afford it.

aeon
12-09-16, 02:21 AM
I relate with you Ian, probably as one of the best on the forum. My symptoms are the same and our childhood stories are right in line with each other's.

That felt good to hear even if the reason for the company sucks.

I got up to 115 mph up an empty off ramp 3 mos. ago. Didn't go faster only because the ramp was running out coming to an intersection.

I did that medicated!:o Well, actually probably not well medicated. I don't take my afternoon dose so it had been about 12 hrs. It was just a wild impulse to see how fast I could get up to before the ramp ended.

Meds done, let's have some fun, lol, been there.

But then, there are those times when it isn't impulsive so much as it is testing skills, or tires, or limits, you know, in an auto enthusiast kind of way, or at least that is what I tell myself.

Winter is here at last in Minnesota, so with my RWD I have to keep myself on the short leash. ;)

Anyway, sorry to get off track. I think, I question my diagnosis only because I don't get great results from meds. I know they help me but not close to the extent Dex. helps you.

I've been through titrations with Adderall, Dextroamphetamine, Vyvanse, Provigil and Straterra.

Adderall and Dex. have been the best by far. I just can't seem to find a dose that works consistently. One day it's too little and one day it's too much. I currently take my dose based each day on how I feel.

My Dr is fine with it as long as I don't exceed my prescribed dosage. I never do and normally have better results with much less.

I feel like stimulants really help but don't seem as effective as they could or should be.

Any experience with Focalin, Ritalin, Concerta?

And for sure, my experience is one of varying success, and one or two wrong steps with sleep or food means I am still working twice as hard to go half the distance, and with the bonus of a dry mouth and cold fingers and toes.

I mean, Dex does work a treat, but I'm coming from a place of profound disability, so relative to 40-something years before diagnosis, this seems like a miracle. But if I'm honest, I'm still not anywhere close to right...I just have a chance.

I was mainly wondering if I am misdiagnosed and continue my life on stimulants, will I do more harm. I know they help much better than nothing and plan on continuing. Maybe my expectations are just too high.

I think the inconsistency of efficacy from day to day causes me questions. Some days they work great and other days not at all. Another factor for me is extreme stress and anxiety. They both can crush my med. effects.

Overall, meds. usually curbs my daily anxiety but really fail when the going gets tough.

I am all over the place right now. Meds. are worn off.:) Anyway, I just hope if I was misdiagnosed and taking stimulants at relatively low doses won't be extra detrimental to a brain that can't afford it.

At clinical doses, I think there is little to worry about.

That said, my sense of time is so completely...not there... that even with meds, I'm worthless for worrying about anything that is long-range, i.e., beyond this week, lol.


I Should Be In Bed,
Ian

bluefoxicy
12-09-16, 03:28 PM
Science is overrated to me compared to people's experiences.


Medical science is a field of probabilities. It tells you what's safe and what's not, as well as what's effective and what's not; however, your biochemistry will vary, and different problems with it can express the same effects. Likewise, you may respond to various treatments differently.

The point of medical science is we know a certain amount of various drugs will usually be effective, and cause no dangerous and permanent injuries except in extreme and unpredictable cases. Beyond that, people's experiences give you a qualitative idea of what to expect, which enhances judgment.


My question is what do you think the long term affects would be, taking stimulants at prescribed therapeutic doses for decades of your life, having ADHD VS. NOT HAVING ADHD?

Would stimulants possibly harm a non ADHD brain more so than an ADHD brain?

The primary risk of most stimulant treatments is abuse. Amphetamine users of all types have a chance of not quite understanding the medical consequences of various types of drugs because drugs are pills that do things. We're all tool users, meaning we all make use of tools; but there's a difference between "I have a headache, so I took a Tylenol" and "when I take Amphetamine, it makes me perform better": the former eliminates a problem, the latter adds a beneficial state. Both are pills taken when some change is desired.

Stimulants tend to make you feel good, which is always going to seem beneficial: your brain tells you life is better under the stimulant than without it because the stimulant pokes the part of your brain that says life is good. Thus it is relatively-easy for the unprepared to reason that a bad day or a lot of stress is easily-dealt-with by taking more of the drug. This leads to good responses, and a habit of using more of the drug.

Under medical supervision and following the prescription properly, the drugs are in general not harmful.

Further, you will likely notice if you don't have a condition appropriately treated by stimulants. They'll wire you up good. If the drug improves your life, then it's likely doing something good--but watch out for the drug improving your subjective view of your life while everyone else sees that you're now an impulsive, hyperactive git. You probably want to solicit the opinions of others as part of your evaluation of the drug's impact on yourself.

If it seems to do bad things to you--whatever you feel about it--bring that to your doctor's attention.

Greyhound1
12-09-16, 03:36 PM
Any experience with Focalin, Ritalin, Concerta?
Unfortunately, I have not. My Dr. and I have discussed Focalin but it was cost prohibitive with my crappy insurance.

We discussed Ritalin & Concerta briefly and she was not a fan at all for adults. I prolly need to discuss it further with her and find out why she isn't.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Greyhound1
12-09-16, 04:28 PM
Medical science is a field of probabilities. It tells you what's safe and what's not, as well as what's effective and what's not; however, your biochemistry will vary, and different problems with it can express the same effects. Likewise, you may respond to various treatments differently.

The point of medical science is we know a certain amount of various drugs will usually be effective, and cause no dangerous and permanent injuries except in extreme and unpredictable cases. Beyond that, people's experiences give you a qualitative idea of what to expect, which enhances judgment.

Thanks for your response. I was partially joking when I said science is overrated. I said overrated only because we tend to believe science as fact. "Facts" usually change as science continues to evolve. I am still confused whether eggs and butter are bad or good and science may change the "facts" on them again tomorrow.:lol:

Little Missy
12-09-16, 05:39 PM
Unfortunately, I have not. My Dr. and I have discussed Focalin but it was cost prohibitive with my crappy insurance.

We discussed Ritalin & Concerta briefly and she was not a fan at all for adults. I prolly need to discuss it further with her and find out why she isn't.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'll tell you why! Hungry and a headache, that's why. And snippy.

namazu
12-09-16, 07:00 PM
For what it's worth, at the clinic where my pdoc and psychologist work, I know that at least 2 of the clinicians have ADHD themselves, and (a little birdie has told me) one takes Concerta and the other is partial to Daytrana. Methylphenidate-based meds are used all the time for adults, and overall, they appear to be roughly as effective and as side-effect-prone as the stuff in the amphetamine family -- at least for people with ADHD. Your individual mileage may vary.

C15H25N3O
12-10-16, 01:20 AM
Thanks for your response. I was partially joking when I said science is overrated. I said overrated only because we tend to believe science as fact. "Facts" usually change as science continues to evolve. I am still confused whether eggs and butter are bad or good and science may change the "facts" on them again tomorrow.:lol:

In religion facts dont change but in science? Whats evidence? Is science weird? Yes it is. :faint:

Greyhound1
12-10-16, 01:23 AM
In religion facts dont change but in science? Whats evidence? Is science weird? Yes it is.

Dude, you lost me.:scratch:

Fuzzy12
12-10-16, 04:57 AM
Thanks for your response. I was partially joking when I said science is overrated. I said overrated only because we tend to believe science as fact. "Facts" usually change as science continues to evolve. I am still confused whether eggs and butter are bad or good and science may change the "facts" on them again tomorrow.:lol:
Currently, both are good for you. :);)

C15H25N3O
12-10-16, 10:16 AM
Dude, you lost me.:scratch:

Nah .

Pilgrim
12-10-16, 12:03 PM
Depends what your trying to achieve. I spoke to my brilliant doctor when your going through a bad period go and do something that agrees with your personality.

This is where medication is tough, it adds to my anxiety but it can't change what I can't change, it's a process.

I've come to some challenging places. I should be working on changing these things. But my anxiety takes away my common sense.

My brilliant dr said, ' do something that suits your personality, extrovert go hang out with people, if your introverted go somewhere just you'

C15H25N3O
12-10-16, 12:30 PM
Doing something that benefits personality works better than amphetamine. Period! Period! Period!

salleh
12-10-16, 01:20 PM
whew ......there's several reasons why I didn't just read the first few of these posts and then move on .....and that is to challenge some of the ideas that have been tossed around here ....

1) while science ain't perfect, it is constantly seeking out the truth .....daily, hourly, scientists are searching for the truth ....it's the main defining quality of a scientist .....no one goes into science without that as their core value .....some may be corrupted along the way and fall for the lure of fame or money .....but they start out wanting to look for the truth .....and what's more, if someone abuses science .....fellow scientists are soon on their trail and calling them out on it .....

2) anyone who is not a trained scientist personal "opinion" on a scientific problem is worthless...the US is in a lot of trouble because of denying loudly that a certain fact is a fact ......opinion is not fact ......it's what someone thinks about something ....and if it in denial of facts....it is worthless.......basing anything on people's opinion leads to serious trouble .....


3) if the posters who said this were actually being playful ....stop it please, that kind of playful cause misunderstanding ....


4) speaking to John ....., it's your opinion that too many people take more than 40 mg of adderall a day ....you do not have a scientific leg to stand on ....it's only your opinion ....and when you opine such a thing you are passing judgement on people who take more than that ....you have no right to do that ....Those people are taking what their doctor with 4 years college, 4 years medical school, 2 years general training as a doctor, and then an additional 5 years specializing in physciatry ( wish I could spell) has prescribed for them .......but it's your opinion that they take too much ????? when you have that much medical training behind you ....then you have the right to say something about it ....few, if any, doctors prescribe higher amounts of a stimulant without due diligence ....those patients are either titrated up to a higher dosage, or have been transfered from a previous pdoc and the amount they are used to taking ....

5) .....any scientist or doctor should be viewed to begin with as competent, they hold degrees that are not handed out to someone without their having gone through a specific training ..that's why there IS training .....but doctors and scientists are humans ....some better than other, some with questionable skills that is for sure ....but they have at least earned the initial respect of the people they deal with in their fields ....and the people who come to them for answers ......and with the specific case of an ADD patient, it is vitally important to have a feedback loop between doctor and patient .....while we respect the doctor, a good doctor will respect the patient's input on what is working and what is not .....

.6) the so-called standard top dosage of stimulants was set decades ago, and many pdocs recognize that some patients fall outside the norm ....and I could be wrong, but the last I knew.....there is no adult recommendation for dosage for adults .....it is only comparatively recently that adult ADD has been recognized....

7) I know for a fact that the gov't does not yet recognize adult ADD, as they won't pay for Medicade or pay anything or any part of my prescription ....


...and the reason I am writing all this is that literally hundreds, more probably thousands of people who are not members here, come to this site for answers .....and I could not let some of ideas stand as truth .....they are beliefs.....and should be taken as such ....

Little Missy
12-10-16, 02:19 PM
Salleh! Medicaid will pay for your Adderall in MI. I know they do. :)

Greyhound1
12-10-16, 02:27 PM
This thread has really headed off topic. I created this thread to discuss the pontential consequences of being misdiagnosed and continuing on a path with stimulants.

I am looking for personal opinions rather than scientific studies. I am not trying to bash science or scientists. I do have respect for both.

I am just more interested in finding out what others here think about prescribed stimulant use on a non-Adhd brain.

Thanks to all for your responses. Just wanted to clarify what I am seeking.:)

C15H25N3O
12-10-16, 03:05 PM
I am just more interested in finding out what others here think about prescribed stimulant use on a non-Adhd brain.

I am OK with that. Better it is prescribed and the patient is mentally checked than nothing.
ADHD meds are no supplements from the supermarket someone without self-control should intake.

john2100
12-10-16, 07:23 PM
I am just more interested in finding out what others here think about prescribed stimulant use on a non-Adhd brain.

Most people are misdiagnosed anyway, so you could just as well ask people who are on stimulants and are diagnosed what they think.

Print out the typital 5min test for adhd from the net.
Cover the adhd reference on it and give it to 10 people , I woudn;t be surprised if 5 had adhd based on the test, my dog would pass adhd test and be given adderal if the vet could do it.

If coffee was illegal , we would have the same discussion,,,,well my fried who has narcolepsy takes that schedule 2 coffee pill, is it ok if I take if I'm not diagnoses ?

I would say it is a fair compression.

aeon
12-10-16, 08:53 PM
Most people are misdiagnosed anyway

And you know this because...?

Oh, right...you donít. :rolleyes:


Pfft,
Ian

Lunacie
12-10-16, 09:37 PM
Most people are misdiagnosed anyway, so you could just as well ask people who are on stimulants and are diagnosed what they think.

Print out the typital 5min test for adhd from the net.
Cover the adhd reference on it and give it to 10 people , I woudn;t be surprised if 5 had adhd based on the test, my dog would pass adhd test and be given adderal if the vet could do it.

If coffee was illegal , we would have the same discussion,,,,well my fried who has narcolepsy takes that schedule 2 coffee pill, is it ok if I take if I'm not diagnoses ?

I would say it is a fair compression.

Hm, I wasn't aware that people self-diagnose that way and convince
a doctor that they have adhd and need stimulant meds.

Or that doctors used "the typical 5min test for adhd from the net."

In my experience, they use a more complex questionniare like
the Connor's Evaluation.

john2100
12-10-16, 09:50 PM
Hm, I wasn't aware that people self-diagnose that way and convince
a doctor that they have adhd and need stimulant meds.


You are not really convincing a doctor that you have adhd, but a test will show you do.

Just look at a unusual rise of adderal prescription in adults, that isn't just a statistical anomaly. ADHD is an epidemic and if you look at the rate of spread , it should be one of great concern. What is causing that rise ?

A test for depression is very similar, if you go in when you have a bad day, you will answer in more self critical way ,pessimistic way,then on a great day, there certainly is a bias, big pharma and health care is not a charity , it is business that has to show profit, they have shareholders and are publicly traded. Why would people think there isn't any bias.

Little Missy
12-10-16, 10:24 PM
You are not really convincing a doctor that you have adhd, but a test will show you do.

Just look at a unusual rise of adderal prescription in adults, that isn't just a statistical anomaly. ADHD is an epidemic and if you look at the rate of spread , it should be one of great concern. What is causing that rise ?

A test for depression is very similar, if you go in when you have a bad day, you will answer in more self critical way ,pessimistic way,then on a great day, there certainly is a bias, big pharma and health care is not a charity , it is business that has to show profit, they have shareholders and are publicly traded. Why would people think there isn't any bias.

what happened? did you run out?

Lunacie
12-10-16, 11:12 PM
You are not really convincing a doctor that you have adhd, but a test will show you do.

Just look at a unusual rise of adderal prescription in adults, that isn't just a statistical anomaly. ADHD is an epidemic and if you look at the rate of spread , it should be one of great concern. What is causing that rise ?

A test for depression is very similar, if you go in when you have a bad day, you will answer in more self critical way ,pessimistic way,then on a great day, there certainly is a bias, big pharma and health care is not a charity , it is business that has to show profit, they have shareholders and are publicly traded. Why would people think there isn't any bias.

Just because there has been a rise in diagnoses doesn't mean there's a
corresponding rise in the number of adults who have adhd.

Professionals like Dr. Russell Barkley believe it's simply not been recognized
as adhd until recently, the last 10 years or less.

I am more concerned that it's still under-diagnosed as some doctors haven't
caught up with the understanding that we don't all grow out of adhd.

And research has not caught up with whether treatment for adults may be
somewhat different than treatment for kids.


Added: there is no "test" for adhd.

C15H25N3O
12-11-16, 07:33 AM
Most people are misdiagnosed anyway ... and give it to 10 people , I woudn;t be surprised if 5 had adhd based on the test, my dog would pass adhd test and be given adderal if the vet could do it.

I believe if you give it 10 random people it will affect everyone with any kind of effectiveness. 2 of them will obviously benefit from it and 3 could have an ADHD diagnosis.

Amphetamines poisoning dogs (http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/poisoning-toxicity/c_dg_amphetamine_poisoning_in_dogs)

Little Missy
12-11-16, 08:17 AM
The rise in population also may possibly be a factor.

john2100
12-11-16, 08:51 AM
I believe if you give it 10 random people it will affect everyone with any kind of effectiveness. 2 of them will obviously benefit from it and 3 could have an ADHD diagnosis.

Amphetamines poisoning dogs (http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/poisoning-toxicity/c_dg_amphetamine_poisoning_in_dogs)

sorry , my mistake

midnightstar
12-11-16, 08:58 AM
This thread has been closed by your friendly moderating team for staff review :)

midnightstar
12-12-16, 03:36 PM
This is a friendly reminder from your local friendly moderating team to remain on topic, the OP is this:

I am not sure if this is the right section but it fits the best I can think of for a question I have. I just want people's opinions and not really looking for a "science" discussion. I am just more curious what you guys/gals think. I think your educated opinions on this topic will help me much more. Science is overrated to me compared to people's experiences.

I know, I am not the first here to question an ADHD diagnosis. I feel, I am about 80% sure I am ADHD-PI screw DSM V. My other 20% believes my issues may be caused by anxiety/OCD, SCT and dyslexia. Not sure what's a culprit or what's co-morbid.

My question is what do you think the long term affects would be, taking stimulants at prescribed therapeutic doses for decades of your life, having ADHD VS. NOT HAVING ADHD?

Would stimulants possibly harm a non ADHD brain more so than an ADHD brain? Too much dopamine possibly. Just interested in hearing anyone's unscientific opinions and explanations.

I am just wondering how risky it is to be misdiagnosed and continue to follow treatment.

Thanks for any and all responses!

Also, please remember the etiquette guidelines when posting:


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Thanks and enjoy the thread :)

jkimbo
12-12-16, 03:54 PM
I guess since this thread has been reopened I can throw my 2 cents in the mix :)

I am old school. Forget about the diagnosis and "labels", and treat the symptoms. A diagnosis is nothing but a doctors opinion. And btw, treatment is also based on doctors opinions.

So therefore with all due respect, I suggest there is equal amount of misdiagnosis for every mental illness. Treatment is trial and error. What works for one, may not work for someone else. Treating the symptoms is what we need to worry about, not the diagnosis, which could change with your next doctor :)

daveddd
12-13-16, 10:17 PM
greyhound, im extremely confused by this thread

i think you're asking if you dont have ADHD , but you take a therapeutic dose that is helpful to you, will it hurt you because you dont have ADHD?

if thats what your asking, my somewhat informed opinion is no

Greyhound1
12-13-16, 10:36 PM
greyhound, im extremely confused by this thread

i think you're asking if you dont have ADHD , but you take a therapeutic dose that is helpful to you, will it hurt you because you dont have ADHD?

if thats what your asking, my somewhat informed opinion is no

Thank you daveddd, you are not confused at all. This thread has slippped of track a few times.

That is actually what I am looking for. Please feel free to elaborate on your opinion.

Thanks

daveddd
12-13-16, 10:45 PM
Thank you daveddd, you are not confused at all. This thread has slippped of track a few times.

That is actually what I am looking for. Please feel free to elaborate on your opinion.

Thanks

ADHD meds are generally just not harmful substances

the effects of abusing them is what would cause harm (dehydration , hypertension, whatever other consequences of abuse )

the adhd vs non adhd brain part

there isnt really one specific brain abnormality in the many different presentations of the ADHD symptom group that is specifically corrected by adderall itself

it simply stimulates the cns in a way that makes executive functions much easier for us, so do other things

Greyhound1
12-14-16, 12:03 AM
ADHD meds are generally just not harmful substances

the effects of abusing them is what would cause harm (dehydration , hypertension, whatever other consequences of abuse )

the adhd vs non adhd brain part

there isnt really one specific brain abnormality in the many different presentations of the ADHD symptom group that is specifically corrected by adderall itself

it simply stimulates the cns in a way that makes executive functions much easier for us, so do other things

What do you think of the dopamine effects on the Non Adhd brain? Would the brains own dopamine production seek equilibrium after a period of time for the increase?

daveddd
12-14-16, 01:13 AM
i imagine it would be a rough couple months after you stopped

jkimbo
12-14-16, 02:06 AM
What do you think of the dopamine effects on the Non Adhd brain? Would the brains own dopamine production seek equilibrium after a period of time for the increase?

The dopamine effects of each brain, add, adhd, or anything, take your pick, will be different for each person. Any drug that increases dopamine you will eventually grow a tolerance for it. This is why we don't all feel the same thing, with or without stimulants. Your question is rather difficult to address because it over looks many factors. Will stimulants effect the brain any differently to none add or adhd people? No I think not. Everything is a chemical reaction in our brain. Everything you see, taste, touch, feel and hear, are all chemical reactions. Dopamine is kind of like the reward system in our brain. A certain amount of dopamine is released when you eat chocolate cake or have sex.

Crystal meth releases a very unusual amount of dopamine, I think some where in the vicinity of 1000 times more then we ever experience. Your system would eventually build a tolerance even for that much, and it would require even more meth to feel the same.

It makes no difference if your adhd or just plain normal. The effects would be the same, and the results of abuse would be the same.

ADDonnatella
12-21-16, 04:22 PM
My logic:
ADHD person has lower Dopamine
Stimulants increade Dopamine
Brain ajusts to the new level of Dopamine (it's the reward chemical)
So I guess you will have the same Dopamine level just like those who use it for ADHD

Stevuke79
03-02-17, 05:24 PM
ADD drugs do chemically the exact same thing to people with or without ADD. So you'll have no more or less damage to your brain than someone who takes ADD drugs for fun.

(science-y stuff ahead)
ADD drugs cause a build up of dopamine between the dopamine transmitters and receptors in the brain (the space is called the synapses) . Whether your transmitters aren't releasing enough or your receptors aren't taking enough or the reuptake* of dopamine is happening too fast or too much, Ritalin and Adderall both cause excess dopamine in the synapses. But this also happens in people who don't have ADD.

*(if theres too much dopamine in your synapses, the transmitters take back some of the dopamine and store it for later. The medication prevents this from happening)

If theres a lot of dopamine sitting in the synapses, the receptors have more time to take it in, which is why you feel focused for long periods of time.

People without ADD feel more "high" from ADD medication, for sure. But they also get the same benefits because it does essentially the same thing.

That's half true and it's certainly true if you take it recreationally. The recreational value is the same for everyone.

And when taken as perscribed, in the beginning what you describe is what happens.

After a few months of taking the medication, we all develop tolerance which means we start producing less dopamine to compensate for the limited reuptake.

At that point the effect is different. If you dont have adhd, you're back to where you started. If you do, your dopamine levels are more level and you dont suffer the same highs and lows throughout the day. For those without adhd, their dopamine was more level to begin with.