View Full Version : "Ring of Fire" ,lifelong ADHDer-need supplement help


addhelp23
12-27-16, 09:44 PM
Hi all,

First off, been following these forums for probably 5+ years and appreciate all the feedback people give. It's great to see a resource that has a good amount of members. I truly believe its hard to find help because there really isn't money in "natural" help as the pharmaceutical route is then the easier choice...(unfortunately).

I have tried most pharmaceutical meds. Some worked great, but almost all had side effects. And side effects that I wasn't willing to live with the rest of my life. Through reading books, forums, and research I have been able to get along "decently" but have has cost me in multiple areas of my life. For me personally, Omega 3 supplementation, small meals every few hours, high protein and low sugars is key but cannot get me where I want to be. Also, fitting a workout in as often as possible. #1 is the sleep...

Anywho, I read Dr. Amen's 7 types of ADHD and easily identified with "Ring of Fire" type on almost all its descriptions as I still feel the hyperactivity and other issues that come along with being the energizer bunny. I need to be a little better with a wife and family. So the last few weeks I started a stack of L-Tyrosine, 5-HTP, and Gaba. And taking 4k milligrams of omega 3.

The book does a bad job of indicating what dosage Dr. Amen recommends and times of day/etc.. Dr. Amen does a good job of giving "case studies" and what supplements he usually uses for the different types (without days/time). From the book information, I have somewhat come up with my own dosage. I am about 210 lbs and I am doing l-tyrosine (500mg at 4x per day, morning, mid morning, mid afternoon, early evening--was thinking of increasing dosage), 5-htp (100mg-2x per day, early afternoon and before bed), Gaba (750 mg-1 x per day, early afternoon).

Does anyone else have experience with this stack? Is there anything I should be doing differently? I am extreme hyper, restless leg, bad on memory and remembering things and shutting down. Have always talked too much and blurted out things without thinking them thru... I have seen products which carry b6 and magnesium as well. Should this be added?

It is amazing how little there is informational wise of these three combined? It's like finding a needle in a haystack. I do feel like it's working on some fronts. Concentration is definitely better, not so sure about hyperactivity.

-Side note, Straterra worked the best for me out of 10+ products but the headaches and sexual side effects were too much for me. I am trying to find a stack that comes somewhat close to the effectiveness of that.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO RESPOND. It's been a battle. I am ready to get my life together at the ripe age of 36.

Cheers,

J

sarahsweets
12-28-16, 03:58 AM
Hi all,

First off, been following these forums for probably 5+ years and appreciate all the feedback people give. It's great to see a resource that has a good amount of members. I truly believe its hard to find help because there really isn't money in "natural" help as the pharmaceutical route is then the easier choice...(unfortunately).
Welcome. I wanted to disagree with this one point. The supplement industry makes tons of money off of their own "cures" and treatments except that there are no oversights of their claims and safety.

Anywho, I read Dr. Amen's 7 types of ADHD and easily identified with "Ring of Fire" type on almost all its descriptions as I still feel the hyperactivity and other issues that come along with being the energizer bunny. I need to be a little better with a wife and family. So the last few weeks I started a stack of L-Tyrosine, 5-HTP, and Gaba. And taking 4k milligrams of omega 3.

I have read a lot about Amen and I will admit that some of what he says sounds good. There are a lot of red flags though
https://www.quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/amen.html

His adhd theories when it comes to subtypes an treatments are not supported as much in the medical community.

I wouldnt want you to be afraid to try medications simply because of what one person has said.

Lunacie
12-28-16, 10:06 AM
There can also be side effects from supplements. For instance, too much Omega 3
can lead to bleeding issues. I take Omega 3 myself and it's been very helpful,
but I always notify doctors and nurses and surgeons that I'm taking it along with
my other supplements and medications.

None of the supplements were as helpful for my anxiety/depression but a SSRI
has made my life so much better and more peaceful.

Without my meds my blood pressure would probably have caused a heart attack
or a stroke years ago. So I take what works for each medical issue and am very
grateful to have so many options available,.

addhelp23
12-28-16, 11:23 AM
SarahSweets,

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I am not taking into account the profits supplement companies make and I am forming my own opinion based on the billions I believe pharma make. I have never done enough research-thats on me. It's a very opinionated statement, but I just feel like there is not nearly as much value in a cure naturally as pharma would be out of biz-at least for ADHD. L-Tyrosine is a super cheap supplement. The others seem quite affordable.

On the second point, I am not sure what I believe of Dr. Amen. I will say that he makes money off his Spect's, books, and supplements so there probably is a bias. However, he does not steer people clear of pharma...he essentially says sometime that it is the only thing that works. I take all these guys with grain assault. I have read about 15 books on ADHD, I will say however that tyrosine, 5 htp or trytophan and others have seemingly come up alot.

The stack I speak about taking currently I have seen on many forums. Mostly the Tyrosine-5 HTP. I am just trying to get guidance from the community on if they have taken all three and what amounts, etc...

I think meds are right for some people. I think adderall and straterra helped me in some ways. I also think they might have impacted me poorly long term. I just don't want to be tied to a med the rest of my life which hasn't been on the market for 30 years. I am not hating, just not sure what that does to the brain/body.

Lunacie-I am not saying meds are not the answer. Especially in cases for bp, heart, etc. I think with ADHD, you can succeed highly with nothing (supplement or med) but there are pros/cons. I am just trying to find people who have had success with the supplements I am trying. In regards to the Omegas, how much is too much? 4000 mg alright? When you say bleeding, you don't mean internal? You just mean if you were to get a cut or go under surgery that you could bleed more than most?

Does anyone have any experience with the three supplements I have mentioned?

THanks!

sarahsweets
12-28-16, 12:11 PM
SarahSweets,

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I am not taking into account the profits supplement companies make and I am forming my own opinion based on the billions I believe pharma make. I have never done enough research-thats on me. It's a very opinionated statement, but I just feel like there is not nearly as much value in a cure naturally as pharma would be out of biz-at least for ADHD. L-Tyrosine is a super cheap supplement. The others seem quite affordable.
Listen, I wasnt trying to invalidate you and I hope I didnt do that. What would make me most happy would be equal monitoring of both industries and fair pricing-that way everyone could afford one, the other or both.


On the second point, I am not sure what I believe of Dr. Amen. I will say that he makes money off his Spect's, books, and supplements so there probably is a bias. However, he does not steer people clear of pharma...he essentially says sometime that it is the only thing that works. I take all these guys with grain assault. I have read about 15 books on ADHD, I will say however that tyrosine, 5 htp or trytophan and others have seemingly come up alot.

I guess my issue with him is his theories havent been supported as much by the adhd medical community as a whole-and sometimes people will read only his 7 types of adhd and think that thats the way the medical community labels and treats them. I am not sure how easy it is to get into see him or if he takes insurance. My gut says he doesnt which means he makes a LOT of money.
I wish Spect scans or genetic testing helped diagnose and treat adhd but there isnt enough common research that supports it. Thats the thing with research, it needs to be able to be replicated by other scientists for it to be considered fact or at least widely accepted. I dont think all research is secretly funded by Big Pharma and in fact I think Big Pharma gets a bad rap in certain ways. When something doesnt work-its always Big Pharma's fault- when in fact sometimes things just plain dont work.
I have three kids and a husband and myself who have adhd. My son took stimulants until about age 15 and they saved his life(there is a sticky about it in children's diagnosis if you are interested). My daughter couldnt tolerate meds until 5th grade and stopped them by 8th grade and my youngest has never been able to tolerate them at all. I take stimulants and my husband used to take ritalin but he also has narcolepsy-so he takes provigil instead.

I guess I am just trying to share my angle with you and that its not purely pro med-
My kids all take fish oil and other supplements and my son who is almost 21 now just started to try wellbutrin.

I think meds are right for some people. I think adderall and straterra helped me in some ways. I also think they might have impacted me poorly long term. I just don't want to be tied to a med the rest of my life which hasn't been on the market for 30 years. I am not hating, just not sure what that does to the brain/body.

I know none of us would ever choose to need medication. But being on it forever isnt horrible and certainly not a moral failing. Regarding adderall, it was introduced in 1996- however dexedrine which I believe is 3 out of the 4 salts in adderall has been around for over 70. The addition of the levoamphetamine is what made adderall a new thing. I am just trying to ease your mind, even if its not something you want to try.

Fuzzy12
12-28-16, 01:45 PM
SarahSweets,

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I am not taking into account the profits supplement companies make and I am forming my own opinion based on the billions I believe pharma make. I have never done enough research-thats on me. It's a very opinionated statement, but I just feel like there is not nearly as much value in a cure naturally as pharma would be out of biz-at least for ADHD. L-Tyrosine is a super cheap supplement. The others seem quite affordable.

On the second point, I am not sure what I believe of Dr. Amen. I will say that he makes money off his Spect's, books, and supplements so there probably is a bias. However, he does not steer people clear of pharma...he essentially says sometime that it is the only thing that works. I take all these guys with grain assault. I have read about 15 books on ADHD, I will say however that tyrosine, 5 htp or trytophan and others have seemingly come up alot.

The stack I speak about taking currently I have seen on many forums. Mostly the Tyrosine-5 HTP. I am just trying to get guidance from the community on if they have taken all three and what amounts, etc...

I think meds are right for some people. I think adderall and straterra helped me in some ways. I also think they might have impacted me poorly long term. I just don't want to be tied to a med the rest of my life which hasn't been on the market for 30 years. I am not hating, just not sure what that does to the brain/body.

Lunacie-I am not saying meds are not the answer. Especially in cases for bp, heart, etc. I think with ADHD, you can succeed highly with nothing (supplement or med) but there are pros/cons. I am just trying to find people who have had success with the supplements I am trying. In regards to the Omegas, how much is too much? 4000 mg alright? When you say bleeding, you don't mean internal? You just mean if you were to get a cut or go under surgery that you could bleed more than most?

Does anyone have any experience with the three supplements I have mentioned?

THanks!

Omega 3 thins the blood I believe. It's fine for most people but if you are taking a blood thinning medication such as aspirin for cardiovascular issues then you should only yale omega 3 after consulting your doctor.

Lunacie
12-28-16, 06:25 PM
SarahSweets,

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I am not taking into account the profits supplement companies make and I am forming my own opinion based on the billions I believe pharma make. I have never done enough research-thats on me. It's a very opinionated statement, but I just feel like there is not nearly as much value in a cure naturally as pharma would be out of biz-at least for ADHD. L-Tyrosine is a super cheap supplement. The others seem quite affordable.

On the second point, I am not sure what I believe of Dr. Amen. I will say that he makes money off his Spect's, books, and supplements so there probably is a bias. However, he does not steer people clear of pharma...he essentially says sometime that it is the only thing that works. I take all these guys with grain assault. I have read about 15 books on ADHD, I will say however that tyrosine, 5 htp or trytophan and others have seemingly come up alot.

The stack I speak about taking currently I have seen on many forums. Mostly the Tyrosine-5 HTP. I am just trying to get guidance from the community on if they have taken all three and what amounts, etc...

I think meds are right for some people. I think adderall and straterra helped me in some ways. I also think they might have impacted me poorly long term. I just don't want to be tied to a med the rest of my life which hasn't been on the market for 30 years. I am not hating, just not sure what that does to the brain/body.

Lunacie-I am not saying meds are not the answer. Especially in cases for bp, heart, etc. I think with ADHD, you can succeed highly with nothing (supplement or med) but there are pros/cons. I am just trying to find people who have had success with the supplements I am trying. In regards to the Omegas, how much is too much? 4000 mg alright? When you say bleeding, you don't mean internal? You just mean if you were to get a cut or go under surgery that you could bleed more than most?

Does anyone have any experience with the three supplements I have mentioned?

THanks!

The insurance companies are gouging us much worse than the pharmaceutical companies.

Mayo Clinic recommends a max dose of 3 g per day, unless under a doctor's care.

Yes, large doses of Omega 3 DO increase the risk of internal bleeding and increased risk of stroke.

Less scary is increased risk of nosebleed, blood in the urine, bleeding gums and skin bruising.

Those are rare, but so are serious risks with prescription stimulant meds.

Do not mix Omega 3 with other blood thinners such as warfarin, heparin or aspirin without approval from the doctor.

Do not mix Omega 3 with supplements that also have blood thinning effects such as ginko, garlic, red clover and oregano.

addhelp23
12-29-16, 06:18 PM
The insurance companies are gouging us much worse than the pharmaceutical companies.

Mayo Clinic recommends a max dose of 3 g per day, unless under a doctor's care.

Yes, large doses of Omega 3 DO increase the risk of internal bleeding and increased risk of stroke.

Less scary is increased risk of nosebleed, blood in the urine, bleeding gums and skin bruising.

Those are rare, but so are serious risks with prescription stimulant meds.

Do not mix Omega 3 with other blood thinners such as warfarin, heparin or aspirin without approval from the doctor.

Do not mix Omega 3 with supplements that also have blood thinning effects such as ginko, garlic, red clover and oregano.

Are you saying all Omega 3's or fish oil specifically? I put UDO's Oil in my smoothies and they have about 4-6g of Omega 3 in each servicing from flax and other things. Serving size is 4 x per day so potentially 16 g of omega 3.

Can't believe no one has experience with the other supplements or most slow to respond? Just curious to see people's experience with the others.

Lunacie
12-30-16, 01:09 PM
Are you saying all Omega 3's or fish oil specifically? I put UDO's Oil in my smoothies and they have about 4-6g of Omega 3 in each servicing from flax and other things. Serving size is 4 x per day so potentially 16 g of omega 3.

Can't believe no one has experience with the other supplements or most slow to respond? Just curious to see people's experience with the others.

I don't know much about Omega 3 from plant sources, except that some people
lack the enzymes or something to convert the ALA into EPA. I'll stick with fish oil.

But a quick Google shows that flaxseed oil also increases the risk of bleeding.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/flaxseed-and-flaxseed-oil/safety/hrb-20059416

And that site lists further risks from flaxseed that could exerbate conditions I have.

Flax may also cause abdominal pain and bloating, altered estrogen activity, bowel obstruction, cell damage, change in bowel habits, decreased absorption of drugs, vitamins or minerals, diarrhea, eye itching and weeping, gas, headache, higher or lower cholesterol, hives, increase in total red blood cell count, increased bleeding time, increased blood cyanide levels, increased prostate cancer risk, indigestion, itching, loose stools, malaise (feeling unwell), mania or hypomania, nausea, paralysis, prolonged luteal phase, rapid breathing, seizures, shortness of breath, sneezing, unstable gait, vomiting, watery discharge, weakness, weight gain or loss.

Even "natural" supplements carry some risks. Drinking too much water can kill you.

ginniebean
12-30-16, 01:22 PM
My body cannot tolerate medication. i take none. i have tried supplements and all I've done is waste my money.

Big pharma at least makes it's billions off penicillan and drugs for many life threatening conditions. the billions made by big alt have sweet sounding narratives but not much to back them up.

ToneTone
12-30-16, 02:45 PM
Pharma companies make money, but so do car manufacturers ... and coat makers and eyeglass makers and housing builders ... I don't see how money making weighs against pharma companies in some special way.

One problem with supplements is that they are unregulated by the FDA. So they don't have to submit studies to show any efficacy. And you had better believe supplements are often made by private companies that are seeking a profit just like any other business seeks a profit.

Just make sure to do research on whatever supplement you take to make sure it contains the level of active ingredient it claims it has. That's been a problem in a number of cases ... that supplements don't contain what their makers claim they contain ... so it's hard to judge what dose you are getting. But there are testing outfits out there that test for this, so you can search and find them online.

And supplements do interact with other medications and other supplements, but unfortunately the research on this is usually much weaker and much more sparse than the research on pharma meds.

I don't really see the difference between supplements and medications. Both are dependent on an active ingredient. Both have fillers or inactive ingredients. Both have to have delivery systems. Both have side effects. Both have interactions with other medications and other supplements. Both are made by profit-making companies.

You're probably going to have to do the trial-and-error thing that the rest of us do with pharma meds. Try out a stack, see how it goes and adjust. Again, another downside of supplements is that people often don't tell their doctors they are taking them, and people often don't go to doctors who are monitoring their reactions to the supplements in the same way doctors monitor reactions to pharma meds.

Might be a good idea to find a practitioner who is comfortable with supplements.

Good luck.

Tone

addhelp23
01-04-17, 02:18 PM
Hi all, thanks for all your feedback. I wasn't trying to do a pro/con pharma vs supplements even though it may have came off that way.

I am trying to see if anyone has used the three supplements I have mentioned and had success? Dosage/cycling, etc...or if anyone has similar to "Ring of Fire" what they do...

Thanks in advance!

Little Missy
01-04-17, 04:44 PM
All I can think of is Johnny Cash.

Take some Pre-Natal vitamins. They have it all in one convenient capsule.

max4488
01-15-17, 11:59 PM
Hi Addhelp 23,
I have tried the three supplements you are asking about and they were very successful to calm him, but it did not help with his focus. I think I didn't add the ones you are currently talking. I am going to revisit this.

Good luck.
I would love to hear how it goes when you add the additional supplements.

dvdnvwls
01-16-17, 04:25 AM
"Big pharma" has its problems all right, but "little pharma" and the world of supplements has looser regulations and is littered with shysters and criminals.

Fraser_0762
01-16-17, 07:41 AM
I take a combination of 5htp, Ginkgo Biloba, Magnesium, Omega-3, Multi-Vitamin and Pro-Biotics.

Quite a few things and not cheap, however I do find they help to regulate my mood better. My concentration and memory still suck, but I haven't been taking this combination for very long.

20thcenturyfox
02-13-17, 05:56 AM
... So the last few weeks I started a stack of L-Tyrosine, 5-HTP, and Gaba. And taking 4k milligrams of omega 3.

The book does a bad job of indicating what dosage Dr. Amen recommends and times of day/etc.. Dr. Amen does a good job of giving "case studies" and what supplements he usually uses for the different types (without days/time). From the book information, I have somewhat come up with my own dosage. I am about 210 lbs and I am doing l-tyrosine (500mg at 4x per day, morning, mid morning, mid afternoon, early evening--was thinking of increasing dosage), 5-htp (100mg-2x per day, early afternoon and before bed), Gaba (750 mg-1 x per day, early afternoon).

Does anyone else have experience with this stack? Is there anything I should be doing differently? I am extreme hyper, restless leg, bad on memory and remembering things and shutting down. Have always talked too much and blurted out things without thinking them thru... I have seen products which carry b6 and magnesium as well. Should this be added?

It is amazing how little there is informational wise of these three combined? It's like finding a needle in a haystack. I do feel like it's working on some fronts. Concentration is definitely better, not so sure about hyperactivity.

-Side note, Straterra worked the best for me out of 10+ products but the headaches and sexual side effects were too much for me. I am trying to find a stack that comes somewhat close to the effectiveness of that....J

I don't identify at all with Ring of Fire (I'm all inattentive and depressed--I could sure use a little hyperactivity if anyone has any to spare), but I have tried all the supplements you mention. And I am on generic Strattera.

First of all, Strattera made me feel ill for the first few days (and still does after I miss a day). But after that it settles down, and combined with Vyvanse or Adderall it is the best for concentration and productivity I have tried. Not fantastic, but clearly better than nothing.

The supplements have nowhere near the same effect, though it's entirely possible I don't take enough to find out.

L-Tyrosine is an amino acid precursor to other catecholamines including dopamine, but I don't think there's any guarantee that you can take it by mouth and expect it to be automatically converted to dopamine and delivered to the extracellular spaces between neurons just in time for you to do your income tax return. My understanding is that you take specific amino acids on an empty stomach to reduce the chances they will get mixed up with competing substances or recombined into something else, so I only take activating amino acids like 500mg L-Tyrosine (or Glutamine, Taurine, Argenine, etc) on an empty stomach in the morning. Any effect is pretty slight, and doesn't continue beyone the first day or 2. (I also recently got hold of some Mucuna Pruriens, which is supposed to have a bigger effect on brain dopamine than L-Tyrosine. Taken in the morning on an empty stomach, with L-Theanine as recommended, I can still notice only a mild effect, far from blowing my head off as some post I read exclaimed. But then the new-fangled marijuana which is supposed to be 50x stronger than when I was in college doesn't affect me in the slightest either.)

GABA I do take daily at bedtime, around 300-400mg in powder form, and I do think it probably promotes sleep when taken on an empty stomach.

5-HTP, another amino acid, precursor to serotonin and melatonin, I have tried many times because it is supposed to promote sleep. But for me it seems to trigger migraines, so not worth it.

Fish Oil I recently increased from 700mg to 2100-2500mg at bedtime after re-reading studies using 2-3 grams is the therapeutic dose for depression. 4g would be the top of the range, I think, but you are a much bigger guy than I. I don't notice any cognitive effects, but it's supposed to be good for heart and brain generally, so I take it more or less on faith.

B6 I normally take only in small amounts and only to balance B12, which I consider important, but labs show I have plenty. Other B's are more important to me personally, B1 for perpiheral neuropathy, B2 for migraine, B3 niacinamide, B5, inositol for sleep, skin, brain...but what do I know?

Mg I take in 2 forms, citrate and threonate, partly to increase absorption and partly to ensure plenty to cross BBB (blood-brain barrier) and plenty to remain in circulation. I take both at night because I often eat high-fiber breakfasts which inhibit absorption of most minerals.

TBH, even as an Inattentive, I can barely function without stimulants, so side effects would have to be really intolerable to move me off of meds. If I were hyperactive I think I would be even more motivated to get as much relief as possible from meds for at least some part of the day. Good luck in your quest.

dvdnvwls
02-13-17, 06:07 AM
"Ring of Fire" is nothing but a marketing gimmick, to sell books and supplements. That's why people aren't responding much to that part.