View Full Version : Riding a bike with no hands: Promoting development of self-regulation


mildadhd
01-07-17, 01:16 PM
This thread is meant to promote discussion among members interested in non pharma treatment approaches.

(This discussion is not an anti-pharma thread, this thread is meant for members who cannot use or choose not to use pharma treatment approaches)


G

mildadhd
01-07-17, 01:19 PM
(Question below is meant to promote discussion but not limited to.)

I have been wondering what the differences are between promoting coping mechanisms and promoting development self-regulation?

All thoughts appreciated!


G

ginniebean
01-07-17, 01:40 PM
Although my ADHD was not aquired I was born with it I am unable to take medication for it. If you're not interested in hearing from people who were born with adhd then just me know tho I do think that excluding such a vast majority is short sighted because our symtpoms are very much the same.


Self regulation does develop in people with ADHD but may never meet the same level as our peers. I have noticed this over time in my own life. Even now, in my 50's I am finding and discovering things about myself that I think "why didn't I put this together 30 years ago?" well, and reallyadhd in a nutshell. That delay in development, of being able to put those pieces together where others do it in a timely way because their brains just work better and more efficiently.

Coping skills is about developing routines, externalizing reminders like post it notes, white boards, to keep yourself on track. I have not heard of any effective means outside of medication to develop or force the development of self regulation. Well, I've heard claims but none of them have so far been backed by real evidence that is encouraging.

That said, I've tried any number of things and likely will continue to as I have no choice.

Here's a good article that touches on your theme very accurately I think.

"Self-Regulation and Barkley's Theory of ADHD" (http://www.printfriendly.com/print?source=homepage&url_s=uGGC%25dN%25cS%25cSFunECoEnvAFmpBz%25cSoyBt% 25cScaai%25cSac%25cScd%25cSFrys-ErtHynGvBA-nAq-onExyrLF-GurBEL-Bs-nquq%25cS) by David Rabiner

mildadhd
01-07-17, 01:57 PM
Although my ADHD was not aquired I was born with it I am unable to take medication for it. If you're not interested in hearing from people who were born with adhd then just me know tho I do think that excluding such a vast majority is short sighted because our symtpoms are very much the same.


Nobody is born with developed self-regulation.

Nobody is diagnosed with ADHD before the age of 4.


777

ginniebean
01-07-17, 02:05 PM
Nobody is born with developed self-regulation.

Nobody is diagnosed with ADHD before the age of 4.


777

Actually children as young as three have been diagnosed and the symptoms have been witnessed in infants. However, you're right no one is born with a developed self regulation. That's why the word "development" is in there. It 'develops'. People ARE born with impairments in the brain that delay and stunt the normal development. ADHD is a developmental disorder, meaning something is interfering with the normal development of self regulation. That something, results in the cluster of impairments we call adhd which reveal themselves over time as development increases. That's why the delays show up at various ages because when a child with an efficient brain reaches their milestones we notice, hey , this kid isn't. I was born with this something, as others my age reached thier developmental milestones I did not because something in my brain interfered with that process. I didn't eat any lead paint, I didn't have a head injury or a difficult birth, or any of these postulations. Nature just gave me this brain and it is a bit faulty.

mildadhd
01-07-17, 02:26 PM
Actually children as young as three have been diagnosed and the symptoms have been witnessed in infants. However, you're right no one is born with a developed self regulation. That's why the word "development" is in there. It 'develops'. People ARE born with impairments in the brain that delay and stunt the normal development. ADHD is a developmental disorder, meaning something is interfering with the normal development of self regulation. That something, results in the cluster of impairments we call adhd which reveal themselves over time as development increases. That's why the delays show up at various ages because when a child with an efficient brain reaches their milestones we notice, hey , this kid isn't. I was born with this something, as others my age reached thier developmental milestones I did not because something in my brain interfered with that process. I didn't eat any lead paint, I didn't have a head injury or a difficult birth, or any of these postulations. Nature just gave me this brain and it is a bit faulty.

Human implicit self-regulation normally naturally develops between the last trimester and the age of 3.

Your right nobody is diagnosed with ADHD before the age of 3-4.


777

mildadhd
01-07-17, 02:35 PM
Self regulation does develop in people with ADHD but may never meet the same level as our peers. I have noticed this over time in my own life. Even now, in my 50's I am finding and discovering things about myself that I think "why didn't I put this together 30 years ago?" well, and reallyadhd in a nutshell. That delay in development, of being able to put those pieces together where others do it in a timely way because their brains just work better and more efficiently.

Coping skills is about developing routines, externalizing reminders like post it notes, white boards, to keep yourself on track. I have not heard of any effective means outside of medication to develop or force the development of self regulation. Well, I've heard claims but none of them have so far been backed by real evidence that is encouraging.

That said, I've tried any number of things and likely will continue to as I have no choice.

Here's a good article that touches on your theme very accurately I think.

"Self-Regulation and Barkley's Theory of ADHD" (http://www.printfriendly.com/print?source=homepage&url_s=uGGC%25dN%25cS%25cSFunECoEnvAFmpBz%25cSoyBt% 25cScaai%25cSac%25cScd%25cSFrys-ErtHynGvBA-nAq-onExyrLF-GurBEL-Bs-nquq%25cS) by David Rabiner

It freezes me when you come out swinging in your first post, but I really appreciate the rest of your quote above, as great guidelines for further thread discussion.




777

ginniebean
01-07-17, 02:49 PM
I came out swinging? Really? I thought I was pretty even toned and reasonable. Perception eh?

So, what did you find interesting and what would you like to discuss?

mildadhd
01-07-17, 03:12 PM
So, what did you find interesting and what would you like to discuss?

Differences between...?

-Promoting development of human self-regulation.

-Promoting development of coping mechanisms.


777

ginniebean
01-07-17, 03:24 PM
Differences between...?

-Promoting development of human self-regulation.

-Promoting development of coping mechanisms.


777


Ok, not being an ***, but when you say 'human self regulation" I take that to mean not exclusive to those with adhd but all people everywhere.

IN case you did mean in humans with adhd, so far we don't know how to promote the development of self regulation, medication and external cues are temporary and the person reverts without these supports. If you have found evidence in the form of robust studies using people with adhd to show otherwise, many people want to know.


Yes, we can promote development of coping mechanisms a lot thru education of what is known to work. Like, white boards, day planners, post it notes, getting someone to help you prioritize, allowing yourself shut down time, to name a bare few.

The difference between promoting coping mechanism and promoting development of self regulation is we have known tips and tricks that assist with coping, we don't have any reliable information on what would promote development of self regulation mostly because it's not a voluntary system.
Meaning, it appears to be hard ware and not soft ware. I suppose it's nice to dream tho. I buy lotto tickets.

mildadhd
01-07-17, 05:39 PM
The difference between promoting coping mechanism and promoting development of self regulation is we have known tips and tricks that assist with coping, we don't have any reliable information on what would promote development of self regulation mostly because it's not a voluntary system.
Meaning, it appears to be hard ware and not soft ware. I suppose it's nice to dream tho. I buy lotto tickets.


To answer that we do not have enough information on how human self-regulation develops normally before the age of 3 is short sighted.

Especially when we are discussing a delay in neurodevelopment of human self regulation before the age of 4, don't you think?




777

mildadhd
01-07-17, 08:04 PM
To understand how to promote the development of self-regulation in adulthood, we must understand how implicit self-regulation develops in early infancy/toddlerhood.


777

ginniebean
01-07-17, 10:36 PM
To answer that we do not have enough information on how human self-regulation develops normally before the age of 3 is short sighted.

Especially when we are discussing a delay in neurodevelopment of human self regulation before the age of 4, don't you think?




777

I never said we don't have information on NORMAL development of self regulation. What I said was, "we don't have any reliable information on what would promote development of self regulation mostly because it's not a voluntary system."

I'm not interested in promoting the development of self regulation in people who do not have deficits because we'd be just as for behind or worse. My interest in in people WITH adhd, and that includes those who lived thru ages 1-4 with the defective brain that caused the delay to show up in the first place.

mildadhd
01-08-17, 01:52 PM
I never said we don't have information on NORMAL development of self regulation. What I said was, "we don't have any reliable information on what would promote development of self regulation mostly because it's not a voluntary system."

I'm not interested in promoting the development of self regulation in people who do not have deficits because we'd be just as for behind or worse. My interest in in people WITH adhd, and that includes those who lived thru ages 1-4 with the defective brain that caused the delay to show up in the first place.


At this time, I am interested in basic development of human implicit self-regulation. (Hypersensitive emotional temperament or not).

Differences between...?

-Promoting development of human self-regulation.

-Promoting development of coping mechanisms.


777





777

mildadhd
01-08-17, 02:22 PM
Now, it does need to be borne in mind that just as genes do not control our destiny, neither does our upbringing. However it is influential and this needs to be understood.

-Kunga Kanga Dorji


http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1581922&postcount=1

The basic relationship between environment and gene.


777

ginniebean
01-08-17, 03:14 PM
At this time, I am interested in basic development of human implicit self-regulation. (Hypersensitive emotional temperament or not).





In your opening post you said;

This thread is meant to promote discussion among members interested in non pharma treatment approaches.

(This discussion is not an anti-pharma thread, this thread is meant for members who cannot use or choose not to use pharma treatment approaches)I am interested in a discussion of non pharma treatment as I cannot take meds. I am not anti pharma, I meet the set out criteria, but now you're saying the thread is about something else.

Why don't you want to have discussions with people who cannot take meds, aren't anti pharma, and who are interested on non pharma treatment approache(s) (plural?) You say people are welcome to discuss things when you invite us in? I did bring an article right on topic and you ignored it completely.

While gene's are not destiny in how your life turns out the genetic component of adhd has something like a 60% - 80% chance of getting adhd when you are born. So, no one's saying your destiny is failure but often your destiny is a diagnosis.

john2100
01-08-17, 03:23 PM
Sorry to join in without having to add anything of any value, but Mildadhd , you can see
You are basically doing one on one with ginniebean because the issue is way to complex or not interesting for many. You really just need to go back truth your posts and pm all the users who are capable of understanding you and interested in the discussion.
This is regarding the yesterdays tread about you starting a new forum.

Hope it helps, sorry,no intention to hijack the tread, I'm out of here.

mildadhd
01-08-17, 07:50 PM
In your opening post you said;

I am interested in a discussion of non pharma treatment as I cannot take meds. I am not anti pharma, I meet the set out criteria, but now you're saying the thread is about something else.

Why don't you want to have discussions with people who cannot take meds, aren't anti pharma, and who are interested on non pharma treatment approache(s) (plural?) You say people are welcome to discuss things when you invite us in? I did bring an article right on topic and you ignored it completely.

While gene's are not destiny in how your life turns out the genetic component of adhd has something like a 60% - 80% chance of getting adhd when you are born. So, no one's saying your destiny is failure but often your destiny is a diagnosis.


Ginniebean, you wrote you were not interested in discussing the development of human implicit self-regulation?

Human self-regulation develops in interaction with the environment.

I am interested in the differences between development of coping mechanisms and development of human implicit self-regulation.



777

mildadhd
01-08-17, 08:13 PM
I I did bring an article right on topic and you ignored it completely.



I read the longer version of the articles you posted.

The article you presented was based on explicit development after the age of 4-adulthood

First, we are discussing implicit period of development before birth and the age of 4, which comes before the longer explicit period of development after the age of 4-adulhood.

We do not intentionally do ADHD on purpose, therefore ADHD must involve implicit.





777

ginniebean
01-08-17, 08:16 PM
Ginniebean, you wrote you were not interested in discussing the development of human implicit self-regulation?

Human self-regulation develops in interaction with the environment.

I am interested in the differences between development of coping mechanisms and development of human implicit self-regulation.



777

I don't know where in this thread I said that. That's twice now you've attributed to me something |I haven't said. However, I am not interested in the word salad that I can't make any sense out of that you find of such interest. up down, tertiary, implicit, and not much to help anyone understand what it is you might be saying, and as has been shown in this thread you don't respond to what people actually say, you'll mis-attribute, you'll misquote, but respond to what's been said that doesn't happen.

A conversation is like building blocks not just one person demanding the conversation go a specific way.

Your posted topic is interesting to me, had you posted you were interested in some non-adhd child stuff, as you continually go on about, I wouldn't bother posting.

I don't understand why you post a topic and then don't want to talk about your stated purpose.

I have responded to the difference between coping mechanisms, and development of self regulation, you chose to ignore it and are still doing so.

I'll try again, would you like to discuss anything in the article I posted that relates to choosing or not being able to take meds? Different coping mechanisms and how a person diagnosed with adhd (those are the people who take or don't take meds for adhd and clearly you must be referring to them as infants and people without adhd would not have this problem/dilemma) would go about developing self regulation?

mildadhd
01-08-17, 08:32 PM
Sorry to join in without having to add anything of any value, but Mildadhd , you can see
You are basically doing one on one with ginniebean because the issue is way to complex or not interesting for many. You really just need to go back truth your posts and pm all the users who are capable of understanding you and interested in the discussion.
This is regarding the yesterdays tread about you starting a new forum.

Hope it helps, sorry,no intention to hijack the tread, I'm out of here.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YJCeDtNh_Aw

ginniebean
01-08-17, 08:51 PM
Good article on adhd coping skills.


http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/9134.html

ginniebean
01-08-17, 09:17 PM
I found an interview about developing self regulation thru mindfulness. It also suggests executive skills can be improved however, I haven't seen any of the studies.

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/How_does_mindfulness_help_control_behavior

mildadhd
01-09-17, 10:10 PM
Ginniebean

Could you help me figure something out?

Could you explain why you started this discussion by calling me short sighted, in the first paragraph, of your first post?

I am sorry for calling you short sighted, in return.





777

ginniebean
01-10-17, 05:19 AM
i know you have in the past said you are interested in aquired adhd and I have thought you have been so predominantly so I wondered if you were also asking those without the aquired adhd but also those who were born this way. I did not call you short sighted. I thought it would be short sighted to exclude so many but sincerely had no idea if you had or not. .

Perhaps how I say things triggers you, there was no offense intended with what I said. Had someone said the same to me I would not take offence, I'd probably just consider what they say and see if I agree or diaagree with the assessment.

I am sorry you were hurt by what I said. i'm actually surprised you were. i know my style can be a little rough and tumble but I don't seek to be cruel.

Maybe I should stay away from your topics even the ones I find interesting. When I came back after a long absense I was determined to only do what I enjoy and one of those things is to sink my teeth into meaty posts or sometimes controversial ones. You tend to enjoy controversial stuff and I avoid it because it's clear you very much enjoy discovering new things related to your interest and I have no desire to be connie contradictor. i have my own passions ans interests as well.

i feel you see me as some sort of threat, and with hostility. You have made threads about me that hurt me a great deal. i don't want to deal with it anymore. i just want to post and have fun. i'm not here to steal your joy, I don't want to make you miserable. i am tired of being "the enemy". if I can't be myself in your posts, I will bow out.

mildadhd
01-10-17, 10:41 PM
i know you have in the past said you are interested in aquired adhd and I have thought you have been so predominantly so I wondered if you were also asking those without the aquired adhd but also those who were born this way. I did not call you short sighted. I thought it would be short sighted to exclude so many but sincerely had no idea if you had or not. .

Perhaps how I say things triggers you, there was no offense intended with what I said. Had someone said the same to me I would not take offence, I'd probably just consider what they say and see if I agree or diaagree with the assessment.

I am sorry you were hurt by what I said. i'm actually surprised you were. i know my style can be a little rough and tumble but I don't seek to be cruel.

Maybe I should stay away from your topics even the ones I find interesting. When I came back after a long absense I was determined to only do what I enjoy and one of those things is to sink my teeth into meaty posts or sometimes controversial ones. You tend to enjoy controversial stuff and I avoid it because it's clear you very much enjoy discovering new things related to your interest and I have no desire to be connie contradictor. i have my own passions ans interests as well.

i feel you see me as some sort of threat, and with hostility. You have made threads about me that hurt me a great deal. i don't want to deal with it anymore. i just want to post and have fun. i'm not here to steal your joy, I don't want to make you miserable. i am tired of being "the enemy". if I can't be myself in your posts, I will bow out.


I was born with a more emotionally hypersensitive temperament.

Sometimes I can also be the least sensitive of others.

Let's try letting each other know, if we are hurt by the other?



777

ginniebean
01-11-17, 12:20 AM
Sounds good to me.

Lunacie
01-11-17, 12:03 PM
I read the longer version of the articles you posted.

The article you presented was based on explicit development after the age of 4-adulthood

First, we are discussing implicit period of development before birth and the age of 4, which comes before the longer explicit period of development after the age of 4-adulhood.

We do not intentionally do ADHD on purpose, therefore ADHD must involve implicit.





777

Discussion of the implicit period of development before birth and the age of 4?

That wasn't in either of your first two posts, which don't really seem to be
connected.

What, exactly, do you want to discuss?

mctavish23
01-11-17, 12:46 PM
mild,

Albeit, I'm now retired and no longer licensed or practicing, I spent 30 years as a Licensed Clinical / Child Psychologist, with an

evidenced based specialty practice in ADHD, which also included some adults.

There are no age restrictions on diagnosis. Hope that helps some.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

mildadhd
01-11-17, 10:57 PM
How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age one?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age two?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age three?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age four?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age five?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age six?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age seven?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age eight?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age nine?

How many humans are diagnosed with deficits of self-regulation (aka, AD(H)D) at age ten?



786

Lunacie
01-11-17, 11:21 PM
Yes, it's much harder to diagnose a pre-verbal child, but that doesn't actually
mean that the differences in the brain cannot be seen with the right tools.

The ability to diagnose this disorder is not perfected or standardized.

mildadhd
01-12-17, 12:58 AM
Yes, it's much harder to diagnose a pre-verbal child, but that doesn't actually
mean that the differences in the brain cannot be seen with the right tools.

The ability to diagnose this disorder is not perfected or standardized.


No human is born with the ability to self-regulate.

Inattentive, hyperactive and impulsive behavior are considered normal behavior during early toddlerhood because human self -regulation has normally not developed yet.

Point being...

..human implicit self-regulation normally develops in interaction with the environment between birth and the age of 3.







787

ginniebean
01-12-17, 03:44 AM
Point being...

..human implicit self-regulation normally develops in interaction with the environment between birth and the age of 3.
787


This is true, but it will not develop along the normal path no matter what the interaction with the environment is, if that which causes adhd in the first place is present at birth. This does not mean environment is not important, it simply means environment doesn't cause adhd in the vast majority of cases.

ginniebean
01-12-17, 04:07 AM
No human is born with the ability to self-regulate.

Inattentive, hyperactive and impulsive behavior are considered normal behavior during early toddlerhood because human self -regulation has normally not developed yet.

Point being...

..human implicit self-regulation normally develops in interaction with the environment between birth and the age of 3.

787

That which causes ADHD interferes with implicit self regulation, that's why it shows up. I was diagnosed at 4 my symptoms showed up before my diagnosis. They problem was there at birth.

sarahsweets
01-12-17, 05:45 AM
Nobody is born with developed self-regulation.

Nobody is diagnosed with ADHD before the age of 4.


777

My son was diagnosed at age 3.5.

Lunacie
01-12-17, 11:13 AM
No human is born with the ability to self-regulate.

Inattentive, hyperactive and impulsive behavior are considered normal behavior during early toddlerhood because human self -regulation has normally not developed yet.

Point being...

...human implicit self-regulation normally develops in interaction with the environment between birth and the age of 3.


787

Bolding added as this is the part I'm responding to.

In ADHD, self-regulation does not develop normally because of wonky wiring
or smaller lobes or unbalanced chemicals inside the brain.

The environment the child lives in daily can promote better development, or
can delay development even further.

But the child was born with a problem inside the brain before they were even
born.

Yes, children can develop something that is almost identical to ADHD if they
experience trauma during their early years, and that is a shame because it
could be prevented.



My son was diagnosed at age 3.5.

My granddaughter was 3.5 when I first took her to story time at the library.

The difference between her and the other children was quite noticable,

even the ones who were younger than her could sit still for a few minutes
without interrupting. She could not.

Back then I didn't know anyone but hyperactive little boys had this thing called
ADHD or I would have encouraged her mom to get her diagnosed.

Once I knew what the symptoms looked like, I realized a lot of her earlier
behaviors were recognizable ADHD traits.

Her self-regulation skills had always been delayed compare to her peers.

mildadhd
01-12-17, 09:42 PM
Bolding added as this is the part I'm responding to.

In ADHD, self-regulation does not develop normally because of wonky wiring
or smaller lobes or unbalanced chemicals inside the brain.

The environment the child lives in daily can promote better development, or
can delay development even further.

But the child was born with a problem inside the brain before they were even
born.

We are born with more sensitive temperaments.

Interferes with normal development of implicit self-regulation.



788

mildadhd
01-12-17, 09:58 PM
Our sensitive temperaments are more reactive to distresses.

(Distresses perceived or real).

We can epigenetically inherit our ancestors hypersensitive temperaments back 3-5 generations.



788

Lunacie
01-12-17, 10:49 PM
We are born with more sensitive temperaments.

Interferes with normal development of implicit self-regulation.



788

Yep, most who have ADHD are more sensitive.

But not all who are sensitive have ADHD?

Here's some interesting information on temperament and diagnosing ADHD:

http://www.livescience.com/46730-new-adhd-types.html

mildadhd
01-12-17, 11:42 PM
I wonder what we could learn about an emotionally hypersensitive temperament using emotional affective neuroscience personality scales?

The brain's emotional foundations of human personality and the Affective Neuroscience Personality Scales.

Abstract
Six of the primary-process subcortical brain emotion systems - SEEKING, RAGE, FEAR, CARE, GRIEF and PLAY - are presented as foundational for human personality development, and hence as a potentially novel template for personality assessment as in the Affective Neurosciences Personality Scales (ANPS), described here. The ANPS was conceptualized as a potential clinical research tool, which would help experimentalists and clinicians situate subjects and clients in primary-process affective space. These emotion systems are reviewed in the context of a multi-tiered framing of consciousness spanning from primary affect, which encodes biological valences, to higher level tertiary (thought mediated) processing. Supporting neuroscience research is presented along with comparisons to Cloninger's Temperament and Character Inventory and the Five Factor Model (FFM). Suggestions are made for grounding the internal structure of the FFM on the primal emotional systems recognized in affective neuroscience, which may promote substantive dialog between human and animal research traditions. Personality is viewed in the context of Darwinian "continuity" with the inherited subcortical brain emotion systems being foundational, providing major forces for personality development in both humans and animals, and providing an affective infrastructure for an expanded five factor descriptive model applying to normal and clinical human populations as well as mammals generally. Links with ontogenetic and epigenetic models of personality development are also presented. Potential novel clinical applications of the CARE maternal-nurturance system and the PLAY system are also discussed.
Copyright 2011 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21527289

mildadhd
01-14-17, 01:25 PM
Yep, most who have ADHD are more sensitive.

But not all who are sensitive have ADHD?

Here's some interesting information on temperament and diagnosing ADHD:

http://www.livescience.com/46730-new-adhd-types.html


Hypersensitivity alone does not cause deficits of implicit self-regulation.

Emotionally hypersensitive people are more emotionally reactive to the emotional environment.

It is the relationship between the internal emotional temperament and the external emotional environment.



793

mildadhd
01-14-17, 02:03 PM
In some people, there will be a greater concentration of developmental problems.

This may be because their specific circumstances were worse, or because they were more sensitive, deeply affected by conditions that others with more robust temperaments could better withstand.

They are the ones likely to be diagnosed with ADD or with some other disorder.


-Gabor Mate M.D., "Scattered", p 43.



793