View Full Version : Very early signs of psychiatric disorders


Fuzzy12
01-28-17, 09:38 PM
Any disorder but I'm mostly wondering about adhd and autism.

As far as I know it's not possible to diagnose adhd or autism in infants (I mean babies under the age of 1) but I was wondering if anyone noticed anything a bit different in their kids that possibly in hindsight they thought might have been an early indicator.

Anecdotes, opinions, personal experience... everything is welcome.

Kunga Dorji
01-28-17, 11:19 PM
Classic autism is present from birth, but it is hard to pick up with any confidence prior to about 2 months- when the child should be getting more engaged socially (smiling starts, on average at around 6 weeks).

Regressive autism (where a child appears to be developing well, then stops, and goes backwards) can appear into the second year (maybe third).

Early detection is important as there is now evidence showing that intensive socialisation programs early on can greatly improve the outcome. Autistic children withdraw from contact, that discourages the parents and a loop of diminishing interaction is set up-- all at a time when the brain should be stimulated and growing maximally from movement and social contact-- so the child lags further behind.

Re ADHD - I've never heard of a way of reliably diagnosing it in infants.

BellaVita
01-29-17, 12:45 AM
Classic autism is present from birth, but it is hard to pick up with any confidence prior to about 2 months- when the child should be getting more engaged socially (smiling starts, on average at around 6 weeks).

Regressive autism (where a child appears to be developing well, then stops, and goes backwards) can appear into the second year (maybe third).

Early detection is important as there is now evidence showing that intensive socialisation programs early on can greatly improve the outcome. Autistic children withdraw from contact, that discourages the parents and a loop of diminishing interaction is set up-- all at a time when the brain should be stimulated and growing maximally from movement and social contact-- so the child lags further behind.

Re ADHD - I've never heard of a way of reliably diagnosing it in infants.

Greatly improve the outcome according to who?

According to the autistic or according to the parents and other typical adults?

Glad I was never put into any intensive socialization programs. :)

sarahsweets
01-29-17, 09:27 AM
My sister was diagnosed with asbergers before it was even an official dx when she was 3. She is 27 now. She had signs of stimming and intolerance to a lot of unusual textures, stimulation, tastes, smells and other issues that at the time were confusing. I remember when she was about 2.5 she used to always eat gravel and mulch from the playground no matter how many times she was corrected or told not to and she wasnt being bad , you could see that she couldnt help it. It was because of my Dad's business relationship with the EDEN institute that she was able to get what was considered ground breaking therapy that was afforable and I think its part of the reason why she is so functional today.

amberwillow
01-29-17, 10:35 AM
My second child over-reacted to stimuli, even in the womb.

Fuzzy12
01-29-17, 02:33 PM
My second child over-reacted to stimuli, even in the womb.

As in? Do you mean you could feel her move more in response to stimuli? What stimuli?

amberwillow
01-29-17, 10:27 PM
As in? Do you mean you could feel her move more in response to stimuli? What stimuli?

He would respond violently to sudden changes in sound levels. It felt as he was bracing outwards in the startle reflex... All of my children ended up as large babies (between 10 and 11 pounds), but he responded very differently to his sisters and his size towards the end of the pregnancy meant there wasn't much room to startle in. :doh:

It was VERY uncomfortable!!

Kunga Dorji
01-30-17, 02:04 AM
Greatly improve the outcome according to who?

According to the autistic or according to the parents and other typical adults?

Glad I was never put into any intensive socialization programs. :)


I would have to hunt for the paper for you.
However the focus was on functional disability, and severe classic autism can be a very severe disability. The outcomes were that when this program was followed, the rate of severe autism requiring special disability support was much lower.

The main aim of the programs were to help the parents persist in engaging with a small child who was persistently disengaging from them and was breaking eye contact.

The theory was that the parents of the child showing these symptoms got the feeling that their child did not love them and that they then disengaged.

Children at that age are developing rapidly and it would be expected that underuse of a particular function or brain area would lead to pruning of those neurones, so an initially small lag could turn into something much more substantial just because of the impact of the initial behavioural differences.

A friend of mine is just now having to face putting his 18 year old autistic son into full time care because of his significant disability and tendency to lash out. So, I'm sure you can see that that is the sort of outcome that most people would be keen to avoid.

BellaVita
01-30-17, 02:31 AM
I would have to hunt for the paper for you.
However the focus was on functional disability, and severe classic autism can be a very severe disability. The outcomes were that when this program was followed, the rate of severe autism requiring special disability support was much lower.

The main aim of the programs were to help the parents persist in engaging with a small child who was persistently disengaging from them and was breaking eye contact.

The theory was that the parents of the child showing these symptoms got the feeling that their child did not love them and that they then disengaged.

Children at that age are developing rapidly and it would be expected that underuse of a particular function or brain area would lead to pruning of those neurones, so an initially small lag could turn into something much more substantial just because of the impact of the initial behavioural differences.

A friend of mine is just now having to face putting his 18 year old autistic son into full time care because of his significant disability and tendency to lash out. So, I'm sure you can see that that is the sort of outcome that most people would be keen to avoid.

I see, thank you for kindly explaining. I'm sorry for sounding snappy up there, I was having a hard night when I responded to your post and this type of topic can trigger an emotional reaction in me.

I guess it can kind of make me feel the wrong way when I read these types of posts. I hope that one day parents can focus less on getting their autistic child to act more like them, and focus more on learning and understanding the autistic behaviors. For example, you mentioned breaking eye contact, eye contact can be something really painful for autistics and I wish it wasn't attempted to get trained into so many of them.

Maybe one day there will be more acceptance of different types of behavior and body language and ways of showing social communication.

I get it that some parents of autistic children feel like their autistic child doesn't love them, but I think a lot of that stems from misunderstanding how the two different Neurotypes communicate.

sarahsweets
01-30-17, 05:00 AM
Maybe one day there will be more acceptance of different types of behavior and body language and ways of showing social communication.

I hope one day this can apply to all of us here.

Lunacie
01-30-17, 11:49 AM
Is it typical for kids to stand up on the bed and walk off the edge of it?
My oldest granddaughter did that when she was 2 or 3.

She would also get frustrated and bang her head on the floor, usually just once.
That was scary though.

She was 3.5 when I was able to start taking her to story time at the library.
The other kids sat quietly while being read to and participated in activities.
My g-daughter interrupted with questions and comments and could not sit still.

She would do some tip toe walking and some spinning, but it didn't last long.
She was eventually diagnosed with severe adhd.


My youngest g-daughter began spinning soon after she began walking, so not
even a year old. Just standing with her head looking up and spinning until
you'd think she'd be too dizzy to stand up. She continued doing this for years.

But even before that, along with the colic, she would get so upset and very
difficult to console. Her dad spent many hours standing next to the furnace,
rocking her in his arms, as the noise and the motion seemed to sooth her.

I found that taking her outside for a short walk, or just to sit on the porch,
talking to her quietly, seemed to distract her and she could be soothed.

She was diagnosed with autism after her pre-K teacher noticed that she'd get
very upset if someone bumped into her. There were probably other things the
teacher picked up on, but that's the only one I remember.

She didn't talk until she was 4, just before starting pre-K, and would get very
frustrated at the inability to communicate her wants and needs.

BellaVita
01-30-17, 07:08 PM
Is it typical for kids to stand up on the bed and walk off the edge of it?
My oldest granddaughter did that when she was 2 or 3.

She would also get frustrated and bang her head on the floor, usually just once.
That was scary though.

She was 3.5 when I was able to start taking her to story time at the library.
The other kids sat quietly while being read to and participated in activities.
My g-daughter interrupted with questions and comments and could not sit still.

She would do some tip toe walking and some spinning, but it didn't last long.
She was eventually diagnosed with severe adhd.


My youngest g-daughter began spinning soon after she began walking, so not
even a year old. Just standing with her head looking up and spinning until
you'd think she'd be too dizzy to stand up. She continued doing this for years.

But even before that, along with the colic, she would get so upset and very
difficult to console. Her dad spent many hours standing next to the furnace,
rocking her in his arms, as the noise and the motion seemed to sooth her.

I found that taking her outside for a short walk, or just to sit on the porch,
talking to her quietly, seemed to distract her and she could be soothed.

She was diagnosed with autism after her pre-K teacher noticed that she'd get
very upset if someone bumped into her. There were probably other things the
teacher picked up on, but that's the only one I remember.

She didn't talk until she was 4, just before starting pre-K, and would get very
frustrated at the inability to communicate her wants and needs.

Interesting that she had colic, I was a colic baby too.

Did she ever line up her toys?

I remember doing that in my crib often. I think I did it on the floor too.

I continued lining up my toys all the way through high school, but in high school it was confined to either side of me in my bed. I think I liked the pressure of the stuffed animals against me.

Heck, I still feel the natural instinct to do it sometimes, my husband has pointed it out to me.

Kunga Dorji
01-30-17, 09:29 PM
I see, thank you for kindly explaining. I'm sorry for sounding snappy up there, I was having a hard night when I responded to your post and this type of topic can trigger an emotional reaction in me.



No problems- we can all react too intensely at times.
I think we need to distinguish between accepting diversity in our adult population and ensuring that our children get the best chance at a free and independent adulthood that they can get.

It is tricky to do this without sounding elitist in some way.


For example, you mentioned breaking eye contact, eye contact can be something really painful for autistics and I wish it wasn't attempted to get trained into so many of them.

Maybe one day there will be more acceptance of different types of behavior and body language and ways of showing social communication.


Nowadays it is well accepted that the most important body language that we pick up comes, in most cases, from microexpressions in the forehead and across the eyebrows.
(The work of Prof Stephen Porges [Polyvagal Theory] and Paul Eckman [a psychologist specialising in emotion and facial expression] covers the key theory behind this understanding.

Being aware of this body language requires eye contact and if one really can't do it then one is at a disadvantage in interaction with other people, a disadvantage that may well prove dangerous.

The point is that it is much easier to deal with that stress response with eye contact earlier rather than later and that if it is not dealt with the ongoing consequences will make life harder for the child later on- no matter how hard we all try to be inclusive.

[/quote]
I get it that some parents of autistic children feel like their autistic child doesn't love them, but I think a lot of that stems from misunderstanding how the two different Neurotypes communicate.[/quote]

I think that viewing it this way (of two equal neurotypes) just does not sit well with biological reality. All mammals are wired the same way to respond to similar subsets of body language.

The issue of the importance of mutual gaze between mother and child in normal right brain development is also well understood. Dr Alan Schore's works on Affect regulation cover it in detail.

As a rule aversion of gaze is seen as a sign of either subservience or concealed threat. Educating the whole population to react in a way that goes against their basic instincts is a big challenge. However, without that level of education the individual with ASD type difficulties is going to struggle in the wider world.

I could go on some more but I have to dash-- but I can respond later.

BellaVita
01-30-17, 09:47 PM
No problems- we can all react too intensely at times.
I think we need to distinguish between accepting diversity in our adult population and ensuring that our children get the best chance at a free and independent adulthood that they can get.

It is tricky to do this without sounding elitist in some way.



Nowadays it is well accepted that the most important body language that we pick up comes, in most cases, from microexpressions in the forehead and across the eyebrows.
(The work of Prof Stephen Porges [Polyvagal Theory] and Paul Eckman [a psychologist specialising in emotion and facial expression] covers the key theory behind this understanding.

Being aware of this body language requires eye contact and if one really can't do it then one is at a disadvantage in interaction with other people, a disadvantage that may well prove dangerous.

The point is that it is much easier to deal with that stress response with eye contact earlier rather than later and that if it is not dealt with the ongoing consequences will make life harder for the child later on- no matter how hard we all try to be inclusive.


I think that viewing it this way (of two equal neurotypes) just does not sit well with biological reality. All mammals are wired the same way to respond to similar subsets of body language.

The issue of the importance of mutual gaze between mother and child in normal right brain development is also well understood. Dr Alan Schore's works on Affect regulation cover it in detail.

As a rule aversion of gaze is seen as a sign of either subservience or concealed threat. Educating the whole population to react in a way that goes against their basic instincts is a big challenge. However, without that level of education the individual with ASD type difficulties is going to struggle in the wider world.

I could go on some more but I have to dash-- but I can respond later.

I appreciate the response, and I think I can see where you are coming from.

I studied Paul Ekman's books growing up, I guess I sensed my inability to detect body language/ read facial expressions , I didn't know that everyone didn't have to learn body language and facial expressions with study, I didn't get that it came naturally to them.

I really do think that our neurotype is equal to the other neurotypes out there, and I really do believe that with education and acceptance our society can come a long way.

I believe it is OK to teach other neurotypes The body language of autistics and encourage acceptance of that, it seems like a fair trade off when autistics spend their entire lives trying to understand and mimic the unnatural (to them) body language of the most common neurotype.

And autistics are actually becoming more recognized now, as in they aren't so rare, I believe it is one in 50 something people?

I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you on some points, but my brain is too jumbled right now to respond and It probably isn't really worth getting any more detailed about. But I again thank you for your kind approach to discussing, even if we do disagree.

I also don't want to further D rail the thread, sorry about that OP.

Kunga Dorji
01-31-17, 02:41 AM
I appreciate the response, and I think I can see where you are coming from.

I studied Paul Ekman's books growing up, I guess I sensed my inability to detect body language/ read facial expressions , I didn't know that everyone didn't have to learn body language and facial expressions with study, I didn't get that it came naturally to them.

I really do think that our neurotype is equal to the other neurotypes out there, and I really do believe that with education and acceptance our society can come a long way.

I believe it is OK to teach other neurotypes The body language of autistics and encourage acceptance of that, it seems like a fair trade off when autistics spend their entire lives trying to understand and mimic the unnatural (to them) body language of the most common neurotype.

And autistics are actually becoming more recognized now, as in they aren't so rare, I believe it is one in 50 something people?

I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you on some points, but my brain is too jumbled right now to respond and It probably isn't really worth getting any more detailed about. But I again thank you for your kind approach to discussing, even if we do disagree.

I also don't want to further D rail the thread, sorry about that OP.

There's a great deal more that could be said on the subject, but I do not think this is a thread hijack. The OP was asking about the capacity to identify ASD and ADHD early. The main reason for doing so, that I can see anyhow, is that of optimising outcomes for the children identified, so what we have said is very much legitimately related to the question asked in the original post.

Fuzzy12
02-01-17, 09:04 AM
I don't mind the odd tangent (especially because there are plenty of threads where i go off topic) but I am more interested in signs and early symptoms rather than outcome.

Fraser_0762
02-01-17, 09:16 AM
I must be honest, i'm very wary of children having labels applied to them before the age of 5. Their brains are still in the predevelopment stage and just because they may show "symptoms" that meet the diagnostic criteria for a neurological condition, doesn't necessarily mean that those symptoms are going to continue on when they reach the elementary stage of their lives.

Needless to say, I don't agree with babies having labels applied to them before they even get the chance to walk.

Lunacie
02-01-17, 11:52 AM
I must be honest, i'm very wary of children having labels applied to them before the age of 5. Their brains are still in the predevelopment stage and just because they may show "symptoms" that meet the diagnostic criteria for a neurological condition, doesn't necessarily mean that those symptoms are going to continue on when they reach the elementary stage of their lives.

Needless to say, I don't agree with babies having labels applied to them before they even get the chance to walk.

On the other hand ...

Children may be deemed "at risk" even without a formal diagnosis or label.
And they can benefit greatly from early interventions.

Fuzzy12
02-01-17, 11:56 AM
Normally kids have mastered the art of walking well before the age of 5. ;)

Fuzzy12
02-01-17, 12:02 PM
I must be honest, i'm very wary of children having labels applied to them before the age of 5. Their brains are still in the predevelopment stage and just because they may show "symptoms" that meet the diagnostic criteria for a neurological condition, doesn't necessarily mean that those symptoms are going to continue on when they reach the elementary stage of their lives.

Needless to say, I don't agree with babies having labels applied to them before they even get the chance to walk.

I'm not sure what you mean by label. Child or adult I think.it's always important to be aware of the fact that nothing is set in stone especially not psychiatric diagnoses. If you mean that you can't diagnose a one year old child, d3 code on a treatment plan and stick to that plan at any cost for the next 18 years I agree with you

Otherwise I think it might help to diagnose kids who are at risk. Even if you don't intervene or treat in any way the parents can start educating themselves. More importantly anything thst aids understanding can only help.

Eg I chart fuzzling's growth not so that I can label her as small average or big baby but so that I can spot early potential issues abd if necessary take measures to help her.

With potential psych disorders o haven't spotted anything yet but i would like to know what to potentially look out for. More tgsn anything I'm just curious.

Lunacie
02-01-17, 12:14 PM
Normally kids have mastered the art of walking well before the age of 5. ;)

Also talking. We were concerned when my youngest g-daughter wasn't talking
at age 3. By age 4 we were seriously concerned. And then ... she talked.

In complete sentences. Using big words that she seemed to understand.

What WE didn't understand was that it was a form of echolalia, repeating what
she had heard, often from videos and movies that she watched endlessly.

Even adults with autism may have a "file" of words and phrases that they can
sort through very quickly to give what seems to be a suitable response.

sarahsweets
02-01-17, 01:46 PM
I must be honest, i'm very wary of children having labels applied to them before the age of 5. Their brains are still in the predevelopment stage and just because they may show "symptoms" that meet the diagnostic criteria for a neurological condition, doesn't necessarily mean that those symptoms are going to continue on when they reach the elementary stage of their lives.

Needless to say, I don't agree with babies having labels applied to them before they even get the chance to walk.

I think if you had children you may feel differently. There is a sticky in children's diagnosis that talks about my son's story and I can only offer it as anecdotal experience, but early intervention saved his life. He was dx'd when he was 3.5 and began meds at age 4. I didnt just walk in to the peds' office and talk to them about it, I found a pediatric neuro/psyche doctor who knows her stuff. She wasnt pushy about meds but she saw that he was brilliant but unable to put that to good use. She realized that in order for him to put that intelligence to good use, he was going to need a lot of pre-k early interventions so that he could start school on time. He had OT and PT in addition to admission to a preschool that specialized in kids with LD's and stuff like adhd. He had regular kindergarten and we realized he still was having issues.
He was in special ed from 1-5 grade and ironically at the same time in 3rd grade, participating in the gifted/talented classes.

I think people who do not have kids-or have kids that have no issues are quick to rebuff labels as if its a death-stamp that will forever doom the child. They seem to think that a label is written in stone, cant be changed or grown out of, or is cruel and shameful. That's their issue and has nothing to do with what is best for the child.

I had my son when I was 21, he was my first and there was no internet to speak of then- I knew something was wrong and hauled my butt to the library and used the awful card catalogue to find the right books. This was all instinct. I didnt listen to people that categorized him as in "boys will be boys". I didnt listen to people telling me he would grow out of it and I certainly had to fight the guilt that I had when people found out he was on medication.

It wasnt an easy choice-and it seems like, along with the preconceived notions about labels, that people are also more concerned about medications for younger children. They should be BUT not if it flies in the face of science and research. Would any parent blindly put their child on medication if they hadnt learned about it for themselves? And I dont mean learn from the doctor prescribing it, I mean learn via research.

I learned that certain medications had been around for 50 years and well studied on kids. In fact, back then adult adhd wasnt around so these medications were extensively studied for use in children.

Anyhow, he turns 21 this month. He is in college, politically active, a good driver,open and honest-compassionate and kind.

At one point we feared for his safety-now I fear when he wants to leave the nest.
People without kids can identify with things all they want- they can say they understand- but the fact is you cant understand; because there is no way to understand until you raise your own children.

Fraser- I know you werent trying to sound judgemental- youre not an as*hole-but I cant help but get surly and salty over comments and beliefs like yours when they do not come from a place of experience.

maple17
02-01-17, 06:49 PM
I wish our we would have identified that something was up with our daughter when she was 3 and 4. First of all, it would have given her the support she needed and she wouldn't have been dismissed by her teachers as over emotional, difficult, whatever.

We as her parents wouldn't have been so hard on her all these years trying to deal with anxiety and meltdowns and asking her, "What is the deal? Why can't you get it together?"

No one...her teachers, doctors, none of us suspected any disorders. She was bright, social, great language skills, went into kindergarten already knowing how to read thanks to being so self driven, she had no academic problems. So she was a late walker and never crawled...it's no big deal now, look she's in school. So her gross motor skills were noticeably off...some kids aren't good at sports. So she has separation anxiety and unexplicably bursts into tears during fire drills, school lockdowns, or thunderstorms...some kids are just sensitive.

All those years being hard on her for something that wasn't her fault and all the struggle she went through. It breaks my heart.

Fraser_0762
02-01-17, 07:25 PM
On the other hand ...

Children may be deemed "at risk" even without a formal diagnosis or label.
And they can benefit greatly from early interventions.

All children before the age of 5 are "at risk". It's pretty standard at that age!

Fraser_0762
02-01-17, 07:50 PM
Would any parent blindly put their child on medication if they hadnt learned about it for themselves? And I dont mean learn from the doctor prescribing it, I mean learn via research.

Sadly, yes they would. Many parents are willing to put their trust in the "professionals" without doing any prior research of their own.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if most parents who put their children on ADHD meds lacked even a basic understanding on how they actually work.

Many treat it like cough syrup. They don't care how it actually works, as long as they believe it to be working.

Now i'm not saying that this makes them "bad parents". It's just the type of society that we live in now. Parents are more willing to put the health of their own offspring into the hands of people who carry fancy job titles.

Fuzzy12
02-01-17, 08:43 PM
I think if you had children you may feel differently. There is a sticky in children's diagnosis that talks about my son's story and I can only offer it as anecdotal experience, but early intervention saved his life. He was dx'd when he was 3.5 and began meds at age 4. I didnt just walk in to the peds' office and talk to them about it, I found a pediatric neuro/psyche doctor who knows her stuff. She wasnt pushy about meds but she saw that he was brilliant but unable to put that to good use. She realized that in order for him to put that intelligence to good use, he was going to need a lot of pre-k early interventions so that he could start school on time. He had OT and PT in addition to admission to a preschool that specialized in kids with LD's and stuff like adhd. He had regular kindergarten and we realized he still was having issues.
He was in special ed from 1-5 grade and ironically at the same time in 3rd grade, participating in the gifted/talented classes.

I think people who do not have kids-or have kids that have no issues are quick to rebuff labels as if its a death-stamp that will forever doom the child. They seem to think that a label is written in stone, cant be changed or grown out of, or is cruel and shameful. That's their issue and has nothing to do with what is best for the child.

I had my son when I was 21, he was my first and there was no internet to speak of then- I knew something was wrong and hauled my butt to the library and used the awful card catalogue to find the right books. This was all instinct. I didnt listen to people that categorized him as in "boys will be boys". I didnt listen to people telling me he would grow out of it and I certainly had to fight the guilt that I had when people found out he was on medication.

It wasnt an easy choice-and it seems like, along with the preconceived notions about labels, that people are also more concerned about medications for younger children. They should be BUT not if it flies in the face of science and research. Would any parent blindly put their child on medication if they hadnt learned about it for themselves? And I dont mean learn from the doctor prescribing it, I mean learn via research.

I learned that certain medications had been around for 50 years and well studied on kids. In fact, back then adult adhd wasnt around so these medications were extensively studied for use in children.

Anyhow, he turns 21 this month. He is in college, politically active, a good driver,open and honest-compassionate and kind.

At one point we feared for his safety-now I fear when he wants to leave the nest.
People without kids can identify with things all they want- they can say they understand- but the fact is you cant understand; because there is no way to understand until you raise your own children.

Fraser- I know you werent trying to sound judgemental- youre not an as*hole-but I cant help but get surly and salty over comments and beliefs like yours when they do not come from a place of experience.

Sarah you know you are my parenting hero and I agree with everything you've said so much except that people without kids can't possibly understand what parents go through or how they feel. Maybe it's true and maybe it isn't. We've got no way of knowing how much someone can understand something or not.

I think it's unfair to dismiss someone's opinion because they don't have kids or to even just use the fact that they don't have kids as an argument.

Lunacie
02-01-17, 08:46 PM
All children before the age of 5 are "at risk". It's pretty standard at that age!

The risk for most children is pretty low. Certain circumstances can make the
risk much higher: genetics, environment, parental drinking or smoking, etc.

And certain behaviors are often warning signs of future diagnoses, or greater
"at risk."

sarahsweets
02-02-17, 07:10 AM
Sarah you know you are my parenting hero and I agree with everything you've said so much except that people without kids can't possibly understand what parents go through or how they feel. Maybe it's true and maybe it isn't. We've got no way of knowing how much someone can understand something or not.

I think it's unfair to dismiss someone's opinion because they don't have kids or to even just use the fact that they don't have kids as an argument.

Well, the truth is, if you do not have kids or kids with a disability, or been a primary caregiver for kids, you cant understand well enough to have an opinion that dismisses current research and recommendations. Fraser said he doesnt think labels(paraphrasing) should be used with kids under age 5. The current research says that adhd can be diagnosed at age 4. I believe he is saying this because he hasnt had experience with a child that young and that impaired.
If he did, I believe he would have a different opinion. His opinion is his business but I truly believe he would think differently if he had kids. Of course he has a right to the opinion, as do I. I cant possibly understand what its like to be a man in Scotland with adhd or a disability. I wouldnt tell other men from Scotland how its supposed to be. Fraser knows what its like to be a man with a disability in Scotland and can probably break it down more. If he told me I couldnt understand what its like he would be right, I am not a man from Scotland with adhd or other disabilities.
I guess it boils down to the differences between opinion,fact and judgement.
You can state facts and opinions without judgement. But judgement on its own can sway a person on the fence about getting their child diagnosed or treated. I have to speak up for the younger children that could get shoved to the back of the line or dismissed due to their age and parents thinking they must wait until a child reaches a certain age to intervene. Thats all I am trying to do.

Fraser_0762
02-02-17, 09:25 AM
Well, ADHD in Scotland is ADHD in any other part of the world. It's ADHD. If I decide to move to any other part of the world, i'm pretty sure it will follow me there! :)

However, i'm still curious to know how you can diagnose a neurological condition when that area of the brain is still undergoing major developmental changes?

I'm not trying to be disrespectul to your view. I am however trying to figure out why I should change my own. Because I don't feel this question ever gets adequately addressed on here.

Simply saying "You've never been a parent, therefore you just don't understand" doesn't address the question. I'm sorry, but it doesn't.

Lunacie
02-02-17, 11:06 AM
Well, ADHD in Scotland is ADHD in any other part of the world. It's ADHD. If I decide to move to any other part of the world, i'm pretty sure it will follow me there! :)

However, i'm still curious to know how you can diagnose a neurological condition when that area of the brain is still undergoing major developmental changes?

I'm not trying to be disrespectul to your view. I am however trying to figure out why I should change my own. Because I don't feel this question ever gets adequately addressed on here.

Simply saying "You've never been a parent, therefore you just don't understand" doesn't address the question. I'm sorry, but it doesn't.

ADHD is characterized as a delay in development. So you start by comparing
whether your child is slower in development in the areas that are known to be
affected than most children of that age group.

Most children, by the age of 3, are learning to take turns. Children with adhd
are much too impatient to take turns, and interrupt often.

Most children, by the age of 3, can remember two or three inter-connected
directions. Children with adhd will either remember the first or the last, but
cannot remember both or all of the instructions.

(example: "Put your toys in the toy box and then put your clothes in the
basket" ... chances are that a child with adhd will start well, then get
distracted and start playing with one of the toys, forgetting all about picking
up the clothes)

Most children, by the age of 2, are able to stay seated and listen to a story
being told for up to 10 minutes. Children with adhd can't seem to stay seated
and tend to interrupt and voice their thoughts.

These were all things we saw in my granddaughter long before she started
school at the age of 4.

Fuzzy12
02-02-17, 01:17 PM
Well, the truth is, if you do not have kids or kids with a disability, or been a primary caregiver for kids, you cant understand well enough to have an opinion that dismisses current research and recommendations. Fraser said he doesnt think labels(paraphrasing) should be used with kids under age 5. The current research says that adhd can be diagnosed at age 4. I believe he is saying this because he hasnt had experience with a child that young and that impaired.
If he did, I believe he would have a different opinion. His opinion is his business but I truly believe he would think differently if he had kids. Of course he has a right to the opinion, as do I. I cant possibly understand what its like to be a man in Scotland with adhd or a disability. I wouldnt tell other men from Scotland how its supposed to be. Fraser knows what its like to be a man with a disability in Scotland and can probably break it down more. If he told me I couldnt understand what its like he would be right, I am not a man from Scotland with adhd or other disabilities.
I guess it boils down to the differences between opinion,fact and judgement.
You can state facts and opinions without judgement. But judgement on its own can sway a person on the fence about getting their child diagnosed or treated. I have to speak up for the younger children that could get shoved to the back of the line or dismissed due to their age and parents thinking they must wait until a child reaches a certain age to intervene. Thats all I am trying to do.

I'm hijacking my own thread but I still disagree. If you were right we could never voice an opinion about anything that we don't have any personal experience with. It would be the end of the forum as you can't ever have exactly the same experience as someone else.

you can't possibly know what someone else can understand and what not. You are not them and you dont know everything about them. They night not have your exact experience to understand but they might have something else...or not. I'm just saying we can't make that judgment.

I understand what you are trying to do and I agree with the message you want to spread.

I don't agree with doing it by being unfair and needlessly dismissive though.

Lunacie
02-02-17, 02:06 PM
I must be honest, i'm very wary of children having labels applied to them before the age of 5. Their brains are still in the predevelopment stage and just because they may show "symptoms" that meet the diagnostic criteria for a neurological condition, doesn't necessarily mean that those symptoms are going to continue on when they reach the elementary stage of their lives.

Needless to say, I don't agree with babies having labels applied to them before they even get the chance to walk.

Some diseases and disorders are often diagnosed in babies, here are just two.

Down Syndrome is recognizable and diagnosable at birth, and can even be
detected in utero, long before they even get the chance to walk. These kids
get early intervention that can enable them to participate in regular classes
at school and thrive.

A baby with Tay-Sachs disease appears healthy at birth, and seems to be
developing normally for a few months. Symptoms generally appear by six
months of age. While symptoms vary from one child to the next, there is
always a slowing down of development. Gradually, Tay-Sachs children lose
motor skills and mental functions. Over time, the child becomes blind, deaf,
mentally retarded, paralyzed and non responsive to the environment. Tay-
Sachs children usually die by age five.

Getting early intervention can mean the difference between having a lifelong
impairment or not. Without a diagnosis, even a suspected diagnosis, how do
we know which kids would benefit from those early interventions?

Fuzzy12
02-24-17, 01:44 PM
What about getting overstimulated easily? When we go out fuzzling cries nonstop, refuses to feed or to sleep, etc.

Maybe it's just my sense of confusion and my agitation rubbing off on her though. I don't like being out of my comfort zone so maybe that shows.

Even when I'm fine the moment she starts crying I get very confused and maybe that makes it worse for her? Maybe she'd calm down otherwise? It's not like I'm a nervous wreck though so it's quite subtle signs she must be picking up. The moment we get home she's fine again.

I guess no baby deals well with stimulation but other babies don't seem as affected.