Well we got a little worried when out daughter came home with some red circles on her homework. She gets those for misbehavior apparently, but she never seems to recall what she got it for. So with 3 days of orange,which is sort of bad, and a red, which is bad bad, we arranged to meet her teacher and the principle, thinking it was a major problem. Well, it was not a problem, in some ways. The teacher was surprised our daugher was even upset about the orange or red, because she never acts in class like it bothered her. She was under the impression that she doesn't really care about that, and was wondering why. Now at least the teacher knows that she cares very much.

Well, we also found out that our girl is ahead of all the other first
graders, in language and reading. She said she was testing to see what level she is at, and ran out of levels in first grade to test her on, and has to go to the second grade teacher to get more testing materials to determine where she is at in reading. She said in language usage, she is far beyond the other children, using very large words that she is surprised a first grader would know. When the class was asked what was a word similar to empty, Our girl raised her hand and said "hollow" which the teacher said was very much a surprise. Well, I guess my wife and I are just used to this precociousness, because our other daugher was precosious too and it didn't seem out of the ordinary for out girl to know that empty and hollow were the same. As it turns out, she is also bored in school, and has reported that the math work they are doing is baby stuff, and
she says they repeat and learn the same thing every day, and she is tired of it. So the school is starting the process to determine what level she is at, get her tested for gifted possibly. The teacher said she was already planning seperate curriculum for her because she knew she could not stay learning the same things the class was learning... or she would be bored. twice in a week She has called home saying she had a tummy ache, so today i asked her if she was bored in school, and she said she was bored and she had a tummy ache, yet she wanted
ice cream...hmmmm...sounds like bored to me. She is in one of the best programs the system offers, so I'm worried the system might not be able to provide for her needs. However, they said once she gets identified as gifted she will receive special teaching from the gifted teacher, who will come to her class and teach her seperately in some things and also involve the whole class in more advanced things for her sake. I arranged for our older daugher to start giving the younger one spanish and hebrew lessons after school, for a sum of $5 a week allowance, which we are still negotiating. I will probably accept that deal, which she proposed...less than a tutor would cost. They are not allowed to watch tv until the language lesson is done, and then a half an hour only. So the older one says to me she doesn't want to do it, and Isaid I might reward her for it, and she says monetarily? and then she says I'll do it for $5 a week and I get saturday and sundays off, the same as a school teacher. I almost laughed because it was such excellent negotiating skill being demonstrated by her.

The older one revealed to me today that she is not challenged in her
new school, and she is in the most advanced program the system
offers. I am thinking of having her take 8th grade courses rather
than 7th grade, and am going to talk to the school about how to do
this. I want her to stay in some 7th grade classes, but her teachers
are going to have to agree to notch up her material considerably. She
is in all advanced gifted courses, yet she is bored and feels it is
not challenging. She didnt start reading until late in the end of 1st
grade, and then she all of a sudden started reading voracioiusly at
the end of first grade, and in 2nd grade we had her tested and she
was reading at 7th grade level....so...this is a pattern.

I have to find ways to keep them challenged academically and in other
balanced ways.

Well, those are my girls!

Jon

Jon,

It's great that you realize your children's gifts. Sure it may still be challenging trying to find the right educational environment for both of them. But, there are so many kids in the school system who are bored and are given negative labels and have thier self esteem killed.

Keep up the great work you are doind with your children.

I second Tara's complements. Keep up the incredible work, Jon.

My daughter was also identified as being "gifted" and has really taken to the extra Gifted Classes that we were able to arrange, via IEP.

I'm just hoping they have a similar program in NYC, as we just moved here from Florida.

I'll keep you posted as to how this works out and what we experience. Maybe as we are going along, you might have some experiences with the system that might help us navigate it better. I know so much depends on how much interest the parents take and how pro-active we are. Without being proactive, I wonder if the schools would notice the gifted children without the parents going in and talking about it.

Thanks for the input

Jonathan

Why not let the girls tell you what they would like to learn ???

I don't know...why not Gary?

Jon

If ADD and gifted kids get bored at learning the norm why not let them excell at what interests them

Sounds like a great idea to me:)

In this case, its not boredom with learning the norm, it is boredom with the pace.

Fortunately, they are both getting A's in everything. My concern is keeping them interested, and making sure they are still challenged. I don't think a first grader is capable of determining her educational needs just yet, although we have adapted her education so far by the interests she has indicated or we have seen. Right now the first grader has a great program, including ballet, violin, art, and science along with the other required curriculum. She is bored because the required curriculum is too remedial for her and she wants to learn faster. The speed of the class is based on the class average. As for the 7th grader, she is more able to determine what she wants to take, but she likes all her subjects. She wants to learn more in all her classes. She is just not CHALLENGED, they are too unchallenging; she wants MORE faster also. But her grades remain top notch as well as her behavior. My finger is on the pulse, trying to stay a step ahead or at least in step. So far, so good, but seeing that I will need to do some supplementing. For instance, they both need to get more foreign language than they are getting, and more Judaic studies. I do take them twice a week to martial arts classes, becasue the younger one was very interested, and we all 3 take it together, and I take them horse back riding, where they also learn how to care for the horses, to round things out. Now I ahve to find a way to get them advanced Hebrew and Judaics, outside of a private Hebrew school, which may be challengin to locate. I've even considered signing the older one up for a college level class, as i think she could test out of one year of college Hebrew already. On the other hand, there is only so much time in a week, and everyone needs to have and appreciate having down time too, to just do nothing.

Thanks for the ideas Gary; its always good to listen to the kids!

Jonathan

Jon -- I don't see Hebrew as an ADD friendly language to learn...no matter how smart or advaned your daughter....In my opinion, I would not recommend advanced classes in Hebrew at all, to anyone, unless they're taken in Israel or something.....(Judaic studies? maybe)...

I would not try to test her out of any Hebrew class levels....If she's going to learn Hebrew, I would have her go through an entire curriculum.... ..THerefore I suggest you make sure she actually wants to do this.....(hence Garry's suggestion)....I don't believe it's worth pursuing unless she plans to use in her life, i.e. plans to visit Israel or some other country where Hebrew is spoken, going to be Bat-Mitzvahed, planning to practice Judiasm or attend temple, etc. Perhaps use in a career somehow (my sister-in-law teaches Hebrew school)

Also, it would be best for her in my opinion to learn Hebrew and Judiasm with other boys and girls her own age, not in an college level class....(in classes, they LISTEN to each other and speak and repeat together as part of the learning).... and just be bored....slow is best with Hebrew....repetition is the norm....bordom is the norm.....practice, practice, practice...NOT ADD-friendly, I know.....but this is how she will learn it and RETAIN it the rest of her life....and when she is an adult she will (still) be able to say she can read and speak it fluently.....What I am saying is just because she may be able to learn other subjects fast, doesn't mean it's the best way as far as Hebrew learning and retention goes....if she is learning slowly but is retaining, that is best....fast is not the best way with Hebrew as it's a TOUGH language to learn....Being "challenged" is not necessarily the goal here.....Long term retention is the goal...And retention of Hebrew is attained with slow steady learning of it.....

Again, I suggest you make sure she really wants to learn it...and suggest she do so with other girls and boys her own age....and suggest combine Hebrew WITH Judaic studies....

Just my opinion and all based on my own experience....:)

All points of view considered; thanks. However, there are some misconceptions. My children are not new comers to learning Hebrew. The eldest has had more than 7 solid years of Hebrew every day of school. She fluently reads and writes Hebrew, and speaks less fluently, but writes essays and does moral and ethical analysis of writings in Hebrew. She has been an A student in Hebrew and was earning 100% on her tests and grades. She is not a beginner at this. She already is a very motivated student who does not find Hebrew boring at all, and misses it and asks for it.

I am seeing signs here today, understandably, that the ADD community may be so used to hearing about ADD students doing poorly in school that it is assuming ADD students could not be interested in difficult subjects or do well in them, and that ADD students will be bored in the tough or monotonous courses. This is a bias the ADD community might want to self-assess. WE, the older generation of ADDers may have had a very tough time in school, so we naturally assume the same for the kids of today.

With medication beginning in third grade, as recommended by psychology research, and surgery for her sleep apnea before 3rd grade, we have a 12 year old child who is very vivacious, motivated, attentive and active in her academics. This should be a positive example and proof to the ADD community that proper treatment of ADD children at an early age is very effective, prior to the learning of bad habits and poor self esteem. We should not wait until a child is in dire shape and has formed a negative opinion of school and of themselves; we should jump in and resolve these issues in the most efficient manner right away, while they are forming their own opinion of themselves at the earliest age possible.

My daugher, thankfully, sees no obstacles in her way, takes her medicine voluntarily every day, and feels no shame in taking her medicine nor in having ADD. She in no way believes that having ADD will stop her from achieving her goals. In this way, she is able to form a complete life, without all the baggage the rest of us have acquired by not being able to concentrate or do well in school as children. She is actually performing academically not at expected levels, but beyond expected levels, as I suspect many of us would have done as children, had we the support and medication at a very early age, prior to our being pegged as underachievers, etc.

Lets assume there is a new generation of ADD children growing up, who will actually not have our baggage, and not see learning as an obstacle, and be able to freely perform in the superior range if they are capable of that. We didn't have the advantages they have today, and there is no reason why they should be seen under a generalization that children of ADD have no interest in school. It is untrue and would be a great disservice to assume this. Many ADD children will be extremely interested in school, as long as they can concentrate, which I support as being with the assistance of medication, and will do exceedingly well.

I have done a few unorthodox things in my children's education. I don't look at report cards with them. I laugh at poor grades when they get them and ask them what they could have done to do better, and tell them that if a C is the worst grade they get, they will be in very good shape. I even tell them that everyone probably gets an F once or more in their school career. My children are agast at the thought of course, of an F! But I wanted them to know a grade does not mean much in the big picture. I worked hard to make sure my children cared about learning, and cared not in the least about grades, becaue my father only looked at my report cards and I hated it. I want them to just love school and learning and their friends and their play time, and thats what I tell them. I ask about their time on the playground when I ask about school. I literally did not show Abby a report card until she was almost done with 6th grade, and then only because she asked to see one, at which time she discoovered she was a straight A student and an honor roll student. Until then, she never saw a report card in her life. That was my philosophy, that the grades did not matter, that the love of books, classes, teachers and students was more important.

She recently wrote a very touching essay in her new school English language class about missing her Hebrew language classes, and her Judaics classes, and mentioned in that essay, that getting good grades didn't mean a thing, only the learning mattered. So she learned something from my bias against grades. By the way, I attended a college that had no grades.... so that also influenced me, but I wonder why I did that? Could it be because my father looked so carefully at grades? And the school was the hardest and most enjoyable school I ever attended. Not getting grades is harder than most people think, in college. There are other higher demands that can be made of a student, much harder than coming up with an A on a test.

But back to kids with ADD and school; they don't have to be bored with school if we give them what they are capable of, and they are capable of so much if they have medicine and supportive services to attend to any learning difficulties they may encounter. Testing is necessary to identify their needs. With all that, some ADD students can be superior students, not just good students. And they don't have to feel their future is limited just because they have ADD. That is my beef, that gifted ADD students are not getting the opportunity to be all they can be, because someone didn't diagnose them early enough, or a parent didn't give them medication early enough as an intervention. I hope this changes as people realize how much early intervention can do. By the way, I got very bad grades in school as a child, and I nearly did not graduate high school, and then graduated 3rd from the bottom of my class out of 400 students, with a D average. I didn't have the opportunites, the diagnosis, the medication, or the support. I don't want any other child to have to go through that, for any reason.


Jonathan

Originally posted by healthwiz
My children are not new comers to learning Hebrew. The eldest has had more than 7 solid years of Hebrew every day of school. She fluently reads and writes Hebrew, and speaks less fluently, but writes essays and does moral and ethical analysis of writings in Hebrew. She has been an A student in Hebrew and was earning 100% on her tests and grades. She is not a beginner at this. She already is a very motivated student who does not find Hebrew boring at all, and misses it and asks for it.



Once learned, Hebrew is NOT boring...it's a delight...All I'm saying is she's YOUNG....If she wants to still be able to read and write Hebrew (the way she is able to now so fluently) 5, 10, 15 or 20 years from now, she will have to keep practicing it....and keep practicing it....long after the lessons are over....long after the motivation and excitement of it wears off....which is why I say long and slow learning initially is the best way to achieve this....

So many kids go to Hebrew school and don't retain it as adults....make sure she keeps it up....that's all I am saying...:) You may want to get her Bat-Mitzvahed....it will really get herself feeling good about the fact that she's so fluent....the only requirement REALLY for a Bat-mitzvah is that she be 13 and she be able to sing (read) in Hebrew.....Since she's already been to Hebrew school, she's all set....

Im not saying let them det5ermine there own educational program

let them find something that interests them and then let them learn as much as they want at there own pace

Just my humble opinion

Agree with Garry:)

One more thing: a Bat-Mitzvah sigifies that a girl is becoming a "woman"....sounds like this suits your daughter perfectly...since she's growing so much faster than her peers....emotionally, academically, socially, etc. Something to think about:)

By the way, I think it's great that her Hebrew skills are so advanced at such a young age. I myself did not become that "fluent" until after I was 13.....so she's really ahead of the game...Good for her...Maybe she should teach and get paid for it....other students besides her sister:)

Joan,

All I can say is that not all solutions fall into the same mold. There are always more than one way to slice a cookie. Its when there is only one way to do something that life seems bland and less filled with choices. When money is no option, your suggestion is more viable, but at $20,000 per year for Private Hebrew Judaics study schools, I will pass and put that money to other uses. We can do a lot more for our children by supplementing their educations and enriching them.

There is no reason to block out college Hebrew as a viable option, unless one compares only to the expensive private school options. And as you yourself testified, many of these high socio- economic Jewish children still grow up without Hebrew, even after spending nearly a hundred thousand dollars per child to put them through that school system, so what is the point? I'd rather do it with a little creativity, get the college system to work to our advantage, and get the job done, without all the hoopla of private schools.

Life is full of surprises and the great surprise for me is the joy I am taking in finding what my children need, even if I have to resort to the strangest solutions. Its more of an adventure this way, and everyone involved will remember it well and with good humour as we look back upon our journey. Most importantly, it is our journey and we are the captains of our ship!

Jon

Gary

Maybe it would help if you explained to me how you and your children were educated. Then I might understand where you are coming from. If such a school system exists, where children can find an interest and learn at their own pace, I have not seen it, and I have looked at alot of programs. Is there a program you or your children attended that meets the desciption of allowing children to choose an interest and go at their own pace? Or are you just suggesting this as a beautiful concept that might not exist in real life?

Jon

Jon: If my parents had sent me to hebrew school as an 11 or 12 year old and I was learning with others who were twice my age, that environment would not have been conducive to learning for me.....trust me....and money is not the issue here.....If they could not have afforded to send me to Hebrew School where I could learn with boys and girls my own age, they would not have sent me at all..The issue was not about a private, expensive hebrew school -- the issue was about being with peers to make for a pleasing learning environment... I went to Hebrew school sponsored by our temple by the way....It was not private....Members could send their children to the Hebrew school there.....and it was all a choice....there are always choices.....always options......one for you is to join a temple....

And the option to be with college age kids came for me when I was actually college age myself....NOT when I was 11 or 12 years old....I would have felt SOOOO conspicuous and out of place....Again, I understand your daugher loves the Hebrew thing....does she WANT to be with college age kids (in order for her parents to save money?) or would she rather be with boys and girls her own age? Or would she rather not go at all? Does she want to intermingle with this age group as she learns? Again learning Hebrew, the class is interactive.....

Does she realize that with this agegroup she may feel out of place? Nothing worse than an ADD child (even on meds and stable) feeling out of place. She may already feel out of place to begin with just by being an ADD child...

Again, what does SHE want? You don't need to answer here, Jon, just stuff to ponder.....:) and questions to ask her.....:)

P.S. One of the reasons I am still quite fluent today, many many years later is because I have pretty fond memories of Hebrew school....lots of laughter with many of my peers...I had some pretty strange Hebrew School teachers and we used to laugh hysterically, had a GREAT time:D..between serious learning sessions....I doubt that would have happened had I been with adults......

Well, too many questions and too much critic Joan. I would not send my daughter into college alone, I would attend with her.

As for your repeated repeated repeated concerns, thank you but I truly know my family.

Your comments about her wanting to be with college age kids (in order for her parents to save money) are not appreciated, rude, and I'm over it.

thanks

Jon

Speaking from my own experience and working in school settings. Many kids feel out of place even in their own age group. Sometimes the social stigma takes away from learning itself.

There are some kids who do fit in better with adults. If those kids feel better about themselves in an adult setting than in a setting with their own peers they may actually learn better.

There are other actvities like sports and clubs outside of school where children can learn social skills and be around their own peers.

Parenting is always full of challenges. No one person is ever born or infused with all the knowledge to make the "perfect" decisions. Thus, we draw upon our own experiences in life, balanced with the knowledge and ideas gleaned from others, to make decisions that work for our own family.

It is often hard to make suggestions that fit someone else's life to a "T", since we draw upon our own experiences. Therefore, its often necessary to peel away the anecdote to find the one or two ideas that best apply to our own situation.

Jon, thanks for opening up to the forum for ideas, and sharing your current situation.

Joan, thanks for sharing your own experiences and ideas as well.

I for one, have taken all that has been said, and will continue to think about it as I put my own child through school.

From my own personal experiences, I enjoyed being in the company of older kids much more than with my peers. I found them to be more mature, less cruel, and more accepting of me.

Originally posted by healthwiz
Gary

Maybe it would help if you explained to me how you and your children were educated. Then I might understand where you are coming from. If such a school system exists, where children can find an interest and learn at their own pace, I have not seen it, and I have looked at alot of programs. Is there a program you or your children attended that meets the desciption of allowing children to choose an interest and go at their own pace? Or are you just suggesting this as a beautiful concept that might not exist in real life?

Jon

They were educated in the typical public school system but taking my one son who took an interest in computers but of coarse at first all he wanted to do was play on the net so when he was given enough pieces of computers to build one it wasn't long before he had it up and running and working fine .

I supplied him with all the used parts he needed , was there to help him find the information he needed if he asked and let him go.

The other son was given a set of carving tools and paint brushes and paint

neither one of them carried on with what they learned as a profession but they sure had fun and learned a lot and will always have that self taught education

I learned to late for them to get the best of there curiousity /knowlage but better is better than never

You are correct Gary, in the sense that you are sharing with me, and letting them find their interests is a wonderful idea. We all need to remember that, especially for ourselves, at least in my own life. thanks

Jon

Yes, Tara and Big, it is true that some kids will feel better or comfortable at least in an older group, and others won't . My brother took college courses in extracurricular studies, not the main subjects, when he was very young. the local university cooperated with my parents to let him take a course there. He did fine and he learned a lot and it didn't harm him socially.

As for advice that cannot fit to a T, correct. Everyone has to find their own path, their own decisions, that is what makes us unique.

Thanks for balancing things Big and Tara. I appreciate the input Joan, but sometimes advice can become overbearing to the point being rude. I try to watch myself for this tendency to become too emotional about someone else's situation and realize I am drawing from my own life which may be different from the other person's life and views.

Anyhow, a lively little conversation. Thanks

Jon

I would likek to put in my concluding remarks if I may:

In kindergarten, grammar school, junior high and high school, I would have LOVED to have been with older kids....YES....having been obese throughout all of these years as well as feeling awkward about ADD....I definitely might have gotten along better with adults.....And in fact when I was in inpatient institutions for treatment I actually got along better with the counselors than my peers....Not so with Hebrew school for ME.


Jon: you're "over it"?

I apolgize for offending you since you believe I was rude -- please remember you brought this up for discussion in your opening thread -- and as well as started the thread....:)

And it was not advice, it was suggestions...."take what you like, leave the rest" as they say....Okay I'm done here:)

Thanks Garry, Andrew and Tara as well for an enlightening discussion:)

Facinating thread! Oldie but a goodie.
I think we have the learning utopia here at my home.
Whereas my kid homeschools and learns a lot naturally when he wants to with all the free time.
Speaking of fitting in in college.....,
My brother went to college when he was 14or 15 I think. He also was lecturing about computers. He used to hang out with the Plato Terminals back when they were state of the art. He knew so much they asked him to give talks in the classes. Later one of the professors was shocked at his age and said he just thought he was a very small man. Most or all of the kids in my family felt much more comfortable among older people. I had 5 of my friends over one morning. When a student of mine stopped by briefly (a 40year old woman, same age as I) to pick up some music. Later she asked if there was a senior citizen meeting going on at my house earlier, and why? No that's my peer group I told her, and it is. The youngest one there was in her earliy 70's. I have younger friends too. But I am in most ways more comfortable with people older. Always have been. I would have loved college when I was 14 or younger. They wouldn't let me in without a GED, and wouldn't let me get a GED untill I was 16. They didn't have that rule for my brother he just got super scores on college entrance exams. I was the youngest in our community orchestra at 1o or and I shared a stand with the oldest member who was in her late 90's and early 100"s, she was truly an inspiration. Lived to104. Still drove, didn't wear glasses. Imagine the grace she had aquired!
Anyway, I am off track! Gifted children was it. Well I do believe gifted children are often inclined to older people. And are often not so age concious. More conscious of connecting mentally with others. Wouldn't that more likely be the basis of our peer groups?
Although when it comes to hide and seek I suppose one needs to play with kids so theres a good chase.
J9

thanks J9

Very interesting first hand experience you are sharing. It helps keep my mind open to all possibilities as I follow my children's progress in education. If you have any other insights or memories about being with adults at a young age, or about your brothers college exp at a young age, they are appreciated.

Jon
:)

Have you read and considered some of the points brought up in the book, "The Hurried Child?"