View Full Version : School Projects and Parent Help


Vandeluca
03-13-17, 09:06 AM
Hey all. Been lurking lots but things pretty stable so have not posted much. But I have a question.

How much help with school work do you find you guys give to any 12-13 year olds? We have other issues (i.e. very controlled epilepsy). On meds for that which they plan to remove post puberty. Some rare Abnormal scan but no seizures anymore...At one time it affected learning but thankfully gone so we are back on track..

Anyway problem is my child does well in school and is organized and at times to most people would seem that she has nothing "different" going on. (meanwhile ADHA/E).... Accommodations are in place but they never seem to be used (i.e. she often doesn't need them i.e. extra time for tests).

She may take longer at home to do hw because if she is 'stuck' it is easier for her to get a second round of reinforcement or explanation and then she is off to the races. It is really weird to see but that is how the brain works. I think her processing time takes longer but once there...she is fine..Sometimes she forget things to and needs refresher. Also, like most of our kids if she is overloaded with info or work, she shuts down and can't tell you anything about what she just spend lots of time on.

That leads to my question. Our biggest issue is when they have some Big Grande Project or Science Fair due. I am not talking simplicity. I won these things in high school competitions and it is MORE THAN that level in the expectations.

Along the way they have all these due dates, cards, etc....on top of REGULAR HW and also IMO they give them too much of this type of project, above level. To me not sensible how to write a paper...Just a lot of fluff to get the job done.

That being said, these project/papers TAKE FOREVER IN OUR HOUSE. Lots of arguments(she does not love to write but again, once the arguing stops she is average).

When these Grande projects come around, it is very difficult for me to watch a kid sit multiple times for 3 hours to get something done. I would rather them give a smaller writing assignment a few times per week than this kind of thing. And it is difficult for people/teacher to understand when on the outside all look ok, doing well in school, etc....But she works really hard and maybe even takes longer to get to that point than others.

So my point is..how do you handle these bigger projects and the amount of time you know it will take your child (almost unfair)? Do you assist them? In the past, I have had to majorly help and then backtrack later and show how or why we did what we did. But I find this useless and not fair to either of us.

How about you all?

Caco3girl
03-13-17, 09:16 AM
It's built into his IEP that he and the teacher have to create checkpoints for large projects. This is to ensure he is on track and doing it correctly.

8th grade was the last time I helped with a project. I'm going with the theory now that he HAS to figure out how to do these things on his own. If he can't do them on his own then he needs an accommodation or something else.

We are using 9-12th grade to determine what he alone is capable of. The last thing I want is for him to be in college and say "I don't know how to do this project on my own". I'd rather he say "Well, the last time I was stuck like this I talked to my teacher, talked to the case holder...what else did I do to get help without asking my mom?"

I am more educated than most parents and sometimes I am not sure if that is a blessing or a curse with my kids.

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 10:26 AM
Thanks for the response. I guess they all in that grade have those timeline checkpoints that you mentioned. However, I feel it is an overload and it gets done 'just to get done' type of thing when it is due during the week. It doesn't work for us when she has HW, maybe 4 tests the same week and writing papers for other classes the same week....The project part, even if in due parts, becomes a stressor/overload. Then how many weeks later to write a paper.....By then it's forgotten. I guess what I am saying is those little checkpoints don't help...they create more work/overload. Perhaps those checkpoints work better for her if due on a Monday ie..After the weekend so she has time....They hardly ever are though. Once I had to actually complain that they had 9 or 10 tests/quizzes and checkpoint for major project due in one week....PLUS a state Std test the Friday. It was ridiculous....

Unfortunately our society in the US thinks that TESTING TESTING TESTING and overload is the way to go..It is not. I have seen proof of this elsewhere....

The regular work/writing is fine and she is learning and independent...Part of her issue is she needs repetition and reinforcement and direction following..She has really come a LONG WAY and as I said at times not noticeable issue.......But I will glance at her work to make sure she followed directions...And in math I suggest that she show me the first few problems if I am around to make sure she gets it before doing 2 pages wrong and therefore learning wrong.....I don't mind this.....I actually like to help reinforce....I missed my calling! I think I would be a fantastic tutor or math specialist/resource person!


.

In my head, I was thinking grade 8 cut off for help. Sure I don't mind proofreading..but that is it...Another big issue I find (even as a detailed adult) is that instructions on these things are vague (directions are in her accommodations...some teachers ignore this IMO)...which never helps....

I get what you mean about being educated....lol...I find the way they are teaching to write big papers and projects is a big circle...That is half of my problem and it is make more work type of thing.....I think it is good to use those things to be organized, in a way that suits the learner... but I don't like her having to write "INFO ON A CARD ANSWERING ONE RESEARCH TOPIC PER CARD PER SOURCE" on an index card... If they were able to write the Cards by source (with multiple details and not just one research question)..I find that easier...but she is NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT...

Index Cards never worked for me either...(now these are digital cards)..If they are rushing to get these cards done throughout just to get them done, the paper will be mediocre....and the cards were a waste because to me it seems hard to put together a paper and I think she has my brain in that matter.

Anyway..maybe I am ranting..Watched long hours of work the past few days and this weekend....;(And of course I had to help!!!

sarahsweets
03-13-17, 10:47 AM
Homework and projects are a pet peeve of mine. IMO it is given way too much and the expectations seem to be that kids will be doing half their learning and understanding at home and half at school plus learning skills needed for the newest and latest standardized testing they have to pass. When it comes to projects, I have always personally believed that the emphasis should be on demonstrating creative, critical thinking, outside the box thinking, artistic vision and stuff like that. When my kids were younger they each had a major project that my husband helped them with. He helped with the planning, gathering of materials and assembly- the kids handled any written parts, designing and creative aspects. My son had to build an invention-so he decided to design a clip-board type object that you would be able to speak into and it would translate speech into writing. This was pre-dragon software days so I wish we had patented it, but my husband helped with the planning an building and my son did the written work. My daughter had to build a sort of 3d scene from one of the units on greece and chose to build an aqueduct system. My sweet husband helped build what she designed and they even made it a working aqueduct. My other daughter just this year had to design a product that would involved innovation, marketing and pretend sales projections. Hubby helped her design a mug completely out of Velcro that could hold liquid but stick to any sort of velcro capable material with the idea being it wouldnt get knocked over. I am proud of my kids for being able to think and help make their vision a reality. Those skills are what I wanted them to glean from these projects. I dont think filling out index cards and outlines were necessarily the most necessary lesson because they were able to use the book with the MLA format, which I assume an adult in then working world would also use.
Busy work makes me mad. Getting the mind working and creating independent thinkers to me, is more important.

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 11:10 AM
Yes, that is the page I am on:)....

I should clarify....They also use the digital MLA, etc so in that regard yes I like it. Anything that saves time helps this household.

I don't like the process of getting this whole thing together....and in this case the cards that go along with digital MLA...I just don't like way the cards have to be organized. In that regard I am still old fashioned.Some of my best papers came from sitting down and just doing it or making facts on a mutliple papers (fine now they can use digital cards; and (sources) next to each piece of info and revise, revise, revise.... You can use many sources to get the best ideas...Their way traps them and they just need to meet the deadline of the '# of cards due today". Suppose a source she chose only had just 2 facts but incredible ones on that issue she is researching but it has tons of other info maybe needed?? She will probably forgo that source to find another lesser quality because she can better fill the digital card because SHE HAS to...it's due....So when she has to write....She's missing what is maybe needed

Your projects sound really interesting. And hard!! She has abilities that are not tapped in this manner....

I just wish on our end, the word big project didn't give her stress. They have 2 major ones per year and then they need to start working on the science one again in the spring of this year for next fall and experiment over the summer.

I will add that age appropriate things...She does well....Creative.... I was shocked the other day and came home to this lovely powerpoint that she did..I thought it was an adults! And so nice and creative and informative.

Anyway, I guess it goes back to maturity. Maybe she is not ready for this step of the game yet..But I wanted those baby steps stronger..not rushed:) THanks@

Caco3girl
03-13-17, 01:33 PM
One of the MAJOR things my son is lacking is planning ahead. I know Sarahsweets has discussed this as well.

If I hear or see that there are a bunch of quizes/tests/assignments coming up I sit my son down and make him walk through it with me when he is doing what. I often say things like "Really, you are only studying the science vocab on Monday...that's it? Seems a shame when you have 8 things due this week and only ONE thing listed for Monday."

He gets the hint and reorganizes until we are both happy, but he does it on paper so it's easily crossed off. It may very well be that the checkpoint that is due next Wednesday has to be done on Friday night...that is if he wants his weekends free. Also, the notecards you spoke about...why only do the amount that is due? Why not do a months worth the first time around?

This year every Friday a science article is due. Small article, write a few sentences, hand it in on Friday...easy right? NOPE! He kept forgetting. I warned him and warned him and then finally I told him he wasn't going out with his buddies until I had 11 articles in a notebook completed! Why 11? Because that is how many were left in the semester and I didn't want to have this talk with him again. He mumbled and grumbled but he didn't get another zero because he did them WAY ahead of time.

Perhaps teaching her to plan WAY ahead is method you could use?

dvdnvwls
03-13-17, 01:53 PM
Teaching an ADHD kid to plan ahead...

It's like teaching a garden gnome to plan ahead. You can "teach" all you want, and if they are people-pleasers they'll say yes yes I get it, but it has to go in one ear and out the other. The planning parts of the brain don't connect like they do for average people. They can't be made to connect with extra effort - the connector is missing.

Teaching them something to do instead of planning might help them - but I'm not sure exactly what that would be.

Anyway, just watch - teach them to plan ahead, and then when they need it again, silently wait for them to make a plan on their own. Just be silent and observe.

And then ... go back to the drawing board. :(

ajaxblu
03-13-17, 02:40 PM
We constantly redirect which helps as long as we remember to do it. But that won't help her when she's out on her own.

Postulate
03-13-17, 03:04 PM
She's doing really well from what you're describing. I graduated with BA and many other investment credentials, I honestly don't remember when I did my homework in high school, if it was ever done...it must have done itself cause I don't remember. I usually went play Counter Strike in a gaming shop down street with 7 or 8 mates and skip 2-3 classes at a time. Teachers knew where we were. If she understands and doing well, give her some time to relax instead of a homework.

Also, humans don't function nor overload. We aren't batteries or computers, we're beings with feelings. I would avoid machine language when speaking to a child, it's super annoying for them and crushes their sense of humanity. I know some of these words are technical terms used by psychiatrists to describe ADHD behaviour...NOT for home use.

Also with big writing projects, the temptation for the parents is to do it themselves. Bad idea, unless they are in imminent year failure and you don't want them to repeat, you want them to contribute to it 100%.

dvdnvwls
03-13-17, 03:07 PM
We constantly redirect which helps as long as we remember to do it. But that won't help her when she's out on her own.
Exactly.

Maybe teaching kids how to get help with planning, how to find helpers that are respectful and trustworthy and non-judgmental, would be more useful in the end.

I can tell you from hard experience that a lot of ADHD kids DO NOT grow out of this AT ALL. I'm 47, and I plan just exactly the way your kids plan.

Caco3girl
03-13-17, 03:09 PM
Teaching an ADHD kid to plan ahead...

It's like teaching a garden gnome to plan ahead. You can "teach" all you want, and if they are people-pleasers they'll say yes yes I get it, but it has to go in one ear and out the other. The planning parts of the brain don't connect like they do for average people. They can't be made to connect with extra effort - the connector is missing.

Teaching them something to do instead of planning might help them - but I'm not sure exactly what that would be.

Anyway, just watch - teach them to plan ahead, and then when they need it again, silently wait for them to make a plan on their own. Just be silent and observe.

And then ... go back to the drawing board. :(

Sounds like you have had a tough time of it. I'm thankful it works for my ADHD kid, or something else is accounting for his work being turned in and massive improvements in grades.

dvdnvwls
03-13-17, 03:10 PM
Sounds like you have had a tough time of it. I'm thankful it works for my ADHD kid, or something else is accounting for his work being turned in and massive improvements in grades.
It works without your supervision?

It's very different having mom looking over your shoulder.

When you're not looking over an ADHD kid's shoulder, he is more likely than other kids to forget what you said, and forget that there was even something to remember.

ajaxblu
03-13-17, 03:22 PM
Exactly.

Maybe teaching kids how to get help with planning, how to find helpers that are respectful and trustworthy and non-judgmental, would be more useful in the end.

I can tell you from hard experience that a lot of ADHD kids DO NOT grow out of this AT ALL. I'm 47, and I plan just exactly the way your kids plan.


Great idea.:goodpost:

Postulate
03-13-17, 03:30 PM
Exactly.

Maybe teaching kids how to get help with planning, how to find helpers that are respectful and trustworthy and non-judgmental, would be more useful in the end.

I can tell you from hard experience that a lot of ADHD kids DO NOT grow out of this AT ALL. I'm 47, and I plan just exactly the way your kids plan.

My opinion is that if they have a thorough understanding of the subject and can score high in exams, I wouldn't worry too much that they didn't plan their homework and projects really well. Sometimes, if you don't crowd them with schedules and 1,000 things to do, they get creative and overall acquire a better understanding. This, also within limits, you still want them to be compliant with demands. With me, project management came later and I did fine. High school was too early for me.

For example, these are the comments my French teacher made at the end of the semester when I was 14:

Name: Gerald
Subject: French
Term average: 16/20

"Gerald chose to remain silent, deaf and blind to everything going on in class. His lack of respect and insolence, by means of never doing homework and skipping most classes, shocks, upsets and weighs heavy. His 80% term average is only due to his mastery of the French language and impeccable grammar/punctuation he shows in term exams. He got zeros in smaller class evaluations because he never listens! What a waste and a shame! Outrageous!"

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 04:43 PM
She's doing really well from what you're describing. I graduated with BA and many other investment credentials, I honestly don't remember when I did my homework in high school, if it was ever done...it must have done itself cause I don't remember. I usually went play Counter Strike in a gaming shop down street with 7 or 8 mates and skip 2-3 classes at a time. Teachers knew where we were. If she understands and doing well, give her some time to relax instead of a homework.

Also, humans don't function nor overload. We aren't batteries or computers, we're beings with feelings. I would avoid machine language when speaking to a child, it's super annoying for them and crushes their sense of humanity. I know some of these words are technical terms used by psychiatrists to describe ADHD behaviour...NOT for home use.

Also with big writing projects, the temptation for the parents is to do it themselves. Bad idea, unless they are in imminent year failure and you don't want them to repeat, you want them to contribute to it 100%.

She does do well. My concern is never 'good grades' like a lot of parents..Sure its nice when she gets them...especially if people understood the rarity and danger of her other issue she had...that she got through it...It is a miracle itself...Some don't recover....My goal is her LEARNING and living life to the fullest. My point of posting was asking what parents do when these big projects (above level/) creep in and how they assist if at all.

I am not sure if I misunderstand you...or you understand me. I would never speak to her as if she is a robot or a machine. But I disagree...We as humans can have 'too much on our plates'. It makes our brains tired and not able to act as we want them too. For lack of a better word "shut down" or function. I am not about semantics.I don't care what terms Psychiatrists use. They tell me she has ADHD....sure at times she acts like it other times no way....but she has another condition t that can mimic adhd....Those meds can make effects that mimic it too. An active EEG mimics it too. So I know they have to label her with something. That is their 'Job". ..so ADHD it is....

She doesn't even know that she has ADHD. It does not define her
She knows she has one issue, why put 2 on her...

Anyway, I still maintain that too much can make any of us 'shut down' aka 'not feel ourselves' aka 'overload'. As parents I think we all know what it means and we don't mean it negatively.:)

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 04:58 PM
One of the MAJOR things my son is lacking is planning ahead. I know Sarahsweets has discussed this as well.

If I hear or see that there are a bunch of quizes/tests/assignments coming up I sit my son down and make him walk through it with me when he is doing what. I often say things like "Really, you are only studying the science vocab on Monday...that's it? Seems a shame when you have 8 things due this week and only ONE thing listed for Monday."

He gets the hint and reorganizes until we are both happy, but he does it on paper so it's easily crossed off. It may very well be that the checkpoint that is due next Wednesday has to be done on Friday night...that is if he wants his weekends free. Also, the notecards you spoke about...why only do the amount that is due? Why not do a months worth the first time around?

This year every Friday a science article is due. Small article, write a few sentences, hand it in on Friday...easy right? NOPE! He kept forgetting. I warned him and warned him and then finally I told him he wasn't going out with his buddies until I had 11 articles in a notebook completed! Why 11? Because that is how many were left in the semester and I didn't want to have this talk with him again. He mumbled and grumbled but he didn't get another zero because he did them WAY ahead of time.

Perhaps teaching her to plan WAY ahead is method you could use?

TX. She does kind if plan. I perhaps have to get her to plan better in terms of time /calendar and school and outside events. I always suggest she get things done ahead.. and have used the Friday night bait. That does work:) However, i do feel bad when I have to do it because she does get a lot of work during the week. Sometimes it is cram--like 5 tests...Crazy. So when these project have checkpoints, it is tough

Regarding the notecards: As I said, it is kind of intense. They usually have 5 due at a time. While I agree to do those ahead of time, time itself does not permit. They take a long time. They get a lot of work and I want her to have an outside life too. I don't think they get enough down overall. Last year was 3 hours of HW/night. It was tough. Her tipping point is these projects. I noticed they would help at school for the 1st one in the fall. For this other one (different teacher) can't even get instructions or details. Our kids have harder times if teacher is not organized....We can all probably agree on that.:)

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 05:03 PM
My opinion is that if they have a thorough understanding of the subject and can score high in exams, I wouldn't worry too much that they didn't plan their homework and projects really well. Sometimes, if you don't crowd them with schedules and 1,000 things to do, they get creative and overall acquire a better understanding. This, also within limits, you still want them to be compliant with demands. With me, project management came later and I did fine. High school was too early for me.

For example, these are the comments my French teacher made at the end of the semester when I was 14:

Name: Gerald
Subject: French
Term average: 16/20

"Gerald chose to remain silent, deaf and blind to everything going on in class. His lack of respect and insolence, by means of never doing homework and skipping most classes, shocks, upsets and weighs heavy. His 80% term average is only due to his mastery of the French language and impeccable grammar/punctuation he shows in term exams. He got zeros in smaller class evaluations because he never listens! What a waste and a shame! Outrageous!"

:goodpost: Yep. I believe she is behind in those ways...perhaps like you she just needs the time. I believe so.

I guess I should know what I am in for. I love when the PARENTS have to sign almost a permission slip...when things are due, checkpoints, etc and the topic. That was the case with these both.

dvdnvwls
03-13-17, 05:05 PM
Sure, we all can have too much on our plates, from time to time.

But in saying that, you're belittling your daughter, and putting labels on her yourself that are much worse than the other labels that you've been trying so hard to avoid.

Imagine having "too much on your plate" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for your entire life including childhood and including vacations and including eating your meals and brushing your teeth. This is NOT a girl whose "plate is a little full just now". Letting her think that, is a major disservice to her, and a block to her future success.

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 06:03 PM
Sure, we all can have too much on our plates, from time to time.

But in saying that, you're belittling your daughter, and putting labels on her yourself that are much worse than the other labels that you've been trying so hard to avoid.

Imagine having "too much on your plate" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for your entire life including childhood and including vacations and including eating your meals and brushing your teeth. This is NOT a girl whose "plate is a little full just now". Letting her think that, is a major disservice to her, and a block to her future success.

Wondering how I am belittling her letting her think that her plate is full 7 days a week? That is why I basically said I make it a pointer her to have life besides school. She doesn't realize I think things are too much..

I must be missing something (again) here. Being overly busy is not a good thing. That is what I am saying. Unfortunately our society makes us think it is good and supposed to be that way.

Postulate
03-13-17, 08:32 PM
Wondering how I am belittling her letting her think that her plate is full 7 days a week? That is why I basically said I make it a pointer her to have life besides school. She doesn't realize I think things are too much..

I must be missing something (again) here. Being overly busy is not a good thing. That is what I am saying. Unfortunately our society makes us think it is good and supposed to be that way.

Look at it this way, if I make a post on ADDforums somewhat similar in length to yours and I make you read my post. Then I remove the post and ask you to write it again. How much of it do you get right? 10%? 15% at best.

Now, if I remove YOUR post and ask you to write it back how much can you reproduce? 90%? All of it? Why? Because you did the thinking! You were thinking. And you're just following your train of thoughts all over again.

If you do the thinking for her, how can she follow your train of thoughts? No one can. So it is nothing but normal, that when you teach her this this and that, she only gets part of it and the mental effort to reproduce the rest is so intense that it causes dopamine antagonism. In fact, if you give somebody Haloperidol or Risperidone in good doses, they will stare at you with a blank face and not say anything. It's the same thing when you say she "shuts down". She's out of dopamine.

She needs to write these papers herself, she needs to do the thinking. And if she cannot, see a doctor for better medication. And machine language like "you're not very functional today" might bother her a bit right now, but when she's 16 and her boyfriend tells her that if she didn't exist he would invent her, and love her, and then when she gets back home you say "go to bed early or you won't function tomorrow properly, at 6pm you'll overload on your homework again" you're going to ignite a blaze you don't have the fire retardants for.

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 09:06 PM
Look at it this way, if I make a post on ADDforums somewhat similar in length to yours and I make you read my post. Then I remove the post and ask you to write it again. How much of it do you get right? 10%? 15% at best.

Now, if I remove YOUR post and ask you to write it back how much can you reproduce? 90%? All of it? Why? Because you did the thinking! You were thinking. And you're just following your train of thoughts all over again.

If you do the thinking for her, how can she follow your train of thoughts? No one can. So it is nothing but normal, that when you teach her this this and that, she only gets part of it and the mental effort to reproduce the rest is so intense that it causes dopamine antagonism. In fact, if you give somebody Haloperidol or Risperidone in good doses, they will stare at you with a blank face and not say anything. It's the same thing when you say she "shuts down". She's out of dopamine.

She needs to write these papers herself, she needs to do the thinking. And if she cannot, see a doctor for better medication. And machine language like "you're not very functional today" might bother her a bit right now, but when she's 16 and her boyfriend tells her that if she didn't exist he would invent her, and love her, and then when she gets back home you say "go to bed early or you won't function tomorrow properly, at 6pm you'll overload on your homework again" you're going to ignite a blaze you don't have the fire retardants for.


Ok good analogy/details- I see what you are trying to see but it doesn't fit anything that occurs here. First, she is not on meds for ADHD. She is a clear thinker except when there is too much going on for her to manage We all have limits.

I never said that I make any of those kinds of comments to her..nor do I. She would not anything know along these lines. I am not quite sure why you assumed that.

Lastly...writing the paper was never the issue nor would it be. That is HER job...I don't like that it takes forever when she has other things scheduled. I expect fair amount of work....I simply asked how PARENTS manage kids or help them who are in our situation. Guiding or sitting down talking things out or explaining or putting someone on the right track is far different than writing a paper...
However, I am seeking better 'executive functioning' as I was not pleased with the amount of time this last one took.

Thanks for the responses just not sure where and why you took the conversation down that road....and why you made the assumptions that you did. You don't have to answer...all is cool

Postulate
03-13-17, 09:44 PM
Ok good analogy/details- I see what you are trying to see but it doesn't fit anything that occurs here. First, she is not on meds for ADHD. She is a clear thinker except when there is too much going on for her to manage

Aka. ADHD

I never said that I make any of those kinds of comments to her..nor do I. She would not anything know along these lines. I am not quite sure why you assumed that.

Lastly...writing the paper was never the issue nor would it be. That is HER job...I don't like that it takes forever when she has other things scheduled. I expect fair amount of work....I simply asked how PARENTS manage kids or help them who are in our situation. Guiding or sitting down talking things out or explaining or putting someone on the right track is far different than writing a paper...
However, I am seeking better 'executive functioning' as I was not pleased with the amount of time this last one took.

Thanks for the responses just not sure where and why you took the conversation down that road....and why you made the assumptions that you did. You don't have to answer...all is cool

If I understood well, your daughter writes these papers, does a good job writing them, BUT, it takes her 3 hours and...you would like to take her to the movies, go out biking, and because she takes so much time in writing them, it causes logistical problems on your end, because you would like to do certain activities that involve her and she's not available, correct?

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 10:07 PM
Aka. ADHD



If I understood well, your daughter writes these papers, does a good job writing them, BUT, it takes her 3 hours and...you would like to take her to the movies, go out biking, and because she takes so much time in writing them, it causes logistical problems on your end, because you would like to do certain activities that involve her and she's not available, correct?

Said the armchair analyst who has it all wrong.

Postulate
03-13-17, 10:35 PM
Said the armchair analyst who has it all wrong.
We're just trying to help you here, so if you can describe what you want from us clearly, do it.

You keep telling your daughter she has too much on her plate and we have no idea what you're talking about. I'm asking. If anyone knows, they can reply with the answer. I think your daughter is a bright kid, and she likes what she's doing. You said you don't like that she took 3 hours to work on a project? What do you mean by that? Is she not allowed to take her time to learn?

You also seem to have trouble admitting that your daughter has ADHD. You're not doing her a favor. You also seem to know better than the doctors! What was that about the EEG and her meds that could mimic ADHD? I hope this is not you at your best:

I don't care what terms Psychiatrists use. They tell me she has ADHD....sure at times she acts like it other times no way....but she has another condition t that can mimic adhd....Those meds can make effects that mimic it too. An active EEG mimics it too. So I know they have to label her with something. That is their 'Job". ..so ADHD it is....

She doesn't even know that she has ADHD. It does not define her
She knows she has one issue, why put 2 on her...

So doctors diagnosed her with ADHD because they had to label her with something. Seriously? And you chose not to have her ADHD treated in order not to put another issue on her.

dvdnvwls
03-13-17, 11:15 PM
Wondering how I am belittling her letting her think that her plate is full 7 days a week? That is why I basically said I make it a pointer her to have life besides school. She doesn't realize I think things are too much..

I must be missing something (again) here. Being overly busy is not a good thing. That is what I am saying. Unfortunately our society makes us think it is good and supposed to be that way.
Knowing she has ADHD and not telling her, minimizing what's really going on - it's wishful thinking at best, and at worst you're lying to yourself and lying to your daughter. She needs to know, now. You need to face facts, now. Sorry.

When she has ADHD and you hide that from her, it leads her to blame herself. She's not stupid - she figured out long ago that other kids have an easier time than she does, and she is going to make up reasons in her own mind that are far more damaging than "Oh, I have ADHD".

I grew up never knowing I have ADHD. Result? Marriage breakdown, financial failure, always believing I was lazy/crazy/stupid, total lack of coping skills. I wish I had known when I was 7.

Postulate
03-13-17, 11:23 PM
Knowing she has ADHD and not telling her, minimizing what's really going on - it's wishful thinking at best, and at worst you're lying to yourself and lying to your daughter. She needs to know, now. You need to face facts, now. Sorry.

When she has ADHD and you hide that from her, it leads her to blame herself. She's not stupid - she figured out long ago that other kids have an easier time than she does, and she is going to make up reasons in her own mind that are far more damaging than "Oh, I have ADHD".

I grew up never knowing I have ADHD. Result? Marriage breakdown, financial failure, always believing I was lazy/crazy/stupid, total lack of coping skills. I wish I had known when I was 7.

Exactly. And let's have a look at what happens when the mother does not tell her daughter she has ADHD:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1928210#post1928210

Read that topic carefully in its entirety.

Vandeluca
03-13-17, 11:58 PM
Well, I tried my best to read and understand what you wrote. If what you wrote was a term paper and was graded according to grammar/structure/fluency, you wouldn't pass grade 4! I encourage you to let your daughter post here instead! We're just trying to help you here, so if you can describe what you want from us clearly, do it.

You keep telling your daughter she has too much on her plate and we have no idea what you're talking about. I'm asking. If anyone knows, they can reply with the answer. I think your daughter is a bright kid, and she likes what she's doing. You said you don't like that she took 3 hours to work on a project? What do you mean by that? Is she not allowed to take her time to learn?

You also seem to have trouble admitting that your daughter has ADHD. You're not doing her a favor. You also seem to know better than the doctors! What was that about the EEG and her meds that could mimic ADHD? I hope this is not you at your best:



So doctors diagnosed her with ADHD because they had to label her with something. Seriously? And you chose not to have her ADHD treated in order not to "put" another issue on her.

Look, if my writing is not flowing it is because I am rushed and type quickly.

As repeatedly mentioned, I never told her or tell her there is too much on her plate. That is my opinion.

I have NO PROBLEM in admitting the ADHD..it may be and WHO CARES the name..It is either THAT or her other condition or both.

Her condition is/was complicated and yes having a very active EEG can give a person a misdiagnosis and create ADHD type behaviors. And, so can some seizure medications. However, I am not going to give you details of the medical condition. I DEFINITELY do not know better than the Docs... Contrary, we have consulted with many and have a team...we have learned a lot and are fortunate to have the best of them. The condition is very rare (classified as a rare disease) but it creates ADHD tendencies as well.

Once again, you say we are not treating it. How do you know what we do? Are meds the only treatment? No.

And be honest with yourself--most people that get tested by a Nueropsychologist will come out with a diagnosis..We all will.

Vandeluca
03-14-17, 12:08 AM
Knowing she has ADHD and not telling her, minimizing what's really going on - it's wishful thinking at best, and at worst you're lying to yourself and lying to your daughter. She needs to know, now. You need to face facts, now. Sorry.

When she has ADHD and you hide that from her, it leads her to blame herself. She's not stupid - she figured out long ago that other kids have an easier time than she does, and she is going to make up reasons in her own mind that are far more damaging than "Oh, I have ADHD".

I grew up never knowing I have ADHD. Result? Marriage breakdown, financial failure, always believing I was lazy/crazy/stupid, total lack of coping skills. I wish I had known when I was 7.

Thanks for the concern. It is complicated with her. She has another condition that produces ADHD behaviors. A Nueropsych says ADHD but the neurologist disagrees--so I am not hiding it. She is a tricky kid..

It does wax and wane consistent with her EEG (active/more abnormal) means more ADHD behavior...

The things that you mentioned above (i.e. coping skills)..Well she seems to have a scapegoat already for those things...and that is her other condition. I should mention if we (and MD) were all sure it is true ADHD perhaps I would tell her. I don't know if you 'grow it out'...

dvdnvwls
03-14-17, 12:33 AM
I'm not talking about having a scapegoat. I'm talking about knowing the whole truth.

The scapegoat idea is again a way of denying the truth or hiding from the truth.

Postulate
03-14-17, 12:46 AM
Wait, what? Her daughter has Landau-Keffler Syndrome? Adderall works with her epilepsy meds just fine...talk to your doctor.

namazu
03-14-17, 01:19 AM
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Vandeluca
03-14-17, 03:24 AM
Wait, what? Her daughter has Landau-Keffler Syndrome? Adderall works with her epilepsy meds just fine...talk to your doctor.

No...that's not it...Dr. Google may have his license revoked...Would love to have a visual of you pounding that keyboard to try to figure it out...

"Carry on"

Fuzzy12
03-14-17, 04:56 AM
Are the projects mainly writing? Like researching a topic and then writing it up? That doesn't sound like much fun.

I'm wondering if you could make ut more fun so that even if it takes a long time it's at least fulfilling. That way she might be able to get more put of it and also remember more.

Eg take her to a relevant museum. Watch relevant movies. Draw pictures.

Most importantly I guess break up the project into smaller chunks that she can work on for short periods of time. Let her do the brain storming and anything that requires creativity but you could help by just guiding her along, eg with organisation (only to an extent though) or writing up notes of her ideas etc.

sarahsweets
03-14-17, 05:40 AM
If you do the thinking for her, how can she follow your train of thoughts? No one can. So it is nothing but normal, that when you teach her this this and that, she only gets part of it and the mental effort to reproduce the rest is so intense that it causes dopamine antagonism. In fact, if you give somebody Haloperidol or Risperidone in good doses, they will stare at you with a blank face and not say anything. It's the same thing when you say she "shuts down". She's out of dopamine.

What is dopamine antagonism?

She needs to write these papers herself, she needs to do the thinking. And if she cannot, see a doctor for better medication. And machine language like "you're not very functional today" might bother her a bit right now, but when she's 16 and her boyfriend tells her that if she didn't exist he would invent her, and love her, and then when she gets back home you say "go to bed early or you won't function tomorrow properly, at 6pm you'll overload on your homework again" you're going to ignite a blaze you don't have the fire retardants for.
I did not get the impression at all that the OP is trying to do the thinking for her daughter or encouraging her not to write the papers herself.

sarahsweets
03-14-17, 05:44 AM
Lastly...writing the paper was never the issue nor would it be. That is HER job...I don't like that it takes forever when she has other things scheduled. I expect fair amount of work....I simply asked how PARENTS manage kids or help them who are in our situation. Guiding or sitting down talking things out or explaining or putting someone on the right track is far different than writing a paper...
However, I am seeking better 'executive functioning' as I was not pleased with the amount of time this last one took.

Thanks for the responses just not sure where and why you took the conversation down that road....and why you made the assumptions that you did. You don't have to answer...all is cool

I understand your concern for how long it takes her, and that she may have other things scheduled. As long as she is not one of those over-scheduled kids and expected to be a star and do it all, I think you are on the right path. I dont get the impression that you have overscheduled her though. It might come to a point where you have to let natural consequences happen regarding her getting something done, in the steps that the teacher wants. I am not saying you should willingly allow her to fail and keep failing, but it might be worth allowing her to do poorly a bit and push for accommodations that might be put in place with an IEP or 504.

sarahsweets
03-14-17, 05:45 AM
Aka. ADHD



If I understood well, your daughter writes these papers, does a good job writing them, BUT, it takes her 3 hours and...you would like to take her to the movies, go out biking, and because she takes so much time in writing them, it causes logistical problems on your end, because you would like to do certain activities that involve her and she's not available, correct?
No, I understood that her daughter does the writing and work but has trouble with the steps leading up to the work. The OP is concerned about how much time it takes her compared to other kids without adhd, doing the same work.

sarahsweets
03-14-17, 05:47 AM
We're just trying to help you here, so if you can describe what you want from us clearly, do it.

You keep telling your daughter she has too much on her plate and we have no idea what you're talking about. I'm asking. If anyone knows, they can reply with the answer. I think your daughter is a bright kid, and she likes what she's doing. You said you don't like that she took 3 hours to work on a project? What do you mean by that? Is she not allowed to take her time to learn?

You also seem to have trouble admitting that your daughter has ADHD. You're not doing her a favor. You also seem to know better than the doctors! What was that about the EEG and her meds that could mimic ADHD? I hope this is not you at your best:



So doctors diagnosed her with ADHD because they had to label her with something. Seriously? And you chose not to have her ADHD treated in order not to put another issue on her.

The Op has every right to be concerned about how much time it takes her daughter to do things, and she seems to be well aware of some of the issues with adhd. I dont think this has to do with other activities that are more important then the work, I think its just overall concern for her daughter's struggles.

sarahsweets
03-14-17, 05:51 AM
And be honest with yourself--most people that get tested by a Nueropsychologist will come out with a diagnosis..We all will.
Can you explain what you mean? Do you mean an adhd diagnosis is easy to get? Or were you referring to her other diagnosis?

Postulate
03-14-17, 08:39 AM
No...that's not it...Dr. Google may have his license revoked...Would love to have a visual of you pounding that keyboard to try to figure it out...

"Carry on"

Looks amazing. It's a Razer gaming keyboard that does green lights all over the walls and ceiling. It's very expensive.

Vandeluca
03-14-17, 11:50 AM
Are the projects mainly writing? Like researching a topic and then writing it up? That doesn't sound like much fun.

I'm wondering if you could make ut more fun so that even if it takes a long time it's at least fulfilling. That way she might be able to get more put of it and also remember more.

Eg take her to a relevant museum. Watch relevant movies. Draw pictures.

Most importantly I guess break up the project into smaller chunks that she can work on for short periods of time. Let her do the brain storming and anything that requires creativity but you could help by just guiding her along, eg with organisation (only to an extent though) or writing up notes of her ideas etc.

Yes...bingo. That is the issue The long writing projects. Meanwhile, when she gets going she is not bad. I have had to leave her at home, explaining that I cannot help her, that what she is asking me I know she can do. After resistance and arguing, I com home and she did a great job. There was a time where writing was really difficult for here and I think it stresses her.

I plan on doing more museums. She is intelligent though.. Whenever I explain what she is seeing or "remember this topic when"...she gets annoyed and the excursion in her mind turns into something for school. She is getting better with that though and making connections...Maturity :)

Vandeluca
03-14-17, 11:55 AM
Can you explain what you mean? Do you mean an adhd diagnosis is easy to get? Or were you referring to her other diagnosis?

Yes Sarah, it is the time it takes comparatively, (this is not all of the time mainly these big ones). All of your posts have described what my concerns were. She is definitely not in too many activities I truly don't believe in over scheduling. Downtime is important in our house.

My 'we all will get a diagnosis' if we go to a Neuropsychologist was a tongue in check bit of sarcasm. Nothing negative more like a smile. I am not an overly serious person..If we are all under their microscope and they get to analyze us, they will find something:). I do believe it is easy to get a ADHD Diagnosis. I know parents who have kids with other condition, and because the NP doesn't know about the other, it is just ADHD. They have be educated on the other conditions. That being said, I believe ADHD truly exists....clearly..I am here:)

Caco3girl
03-15-17, 09:33 AM
And back to the topic.
1. 3 hours of homework per night is not healthy for any child's mental stability.
2. Do you have an IEP?
3. 5 tests in one week is too much unless it's finals and everyone has been given a study guide. Are you given study guides?
4. IEP's can shorten projects or change them to a more creative rather than written type, have you explored that option?
5. In my OPINION the school needs to change to suit your daughters needs....how you can do that you will have to discuss with the school.

Vandeluca
03-15-17, 10:38 AM
And back to the topic.
1. 3 hours of homework per night is not healthy for any child's mental stability.
2. Do you have an IEP?
3. 5 tests in one week is too much unless it's finals and everyone has been given a study guide. Are you given study guides?
4. IEP's can shorten projects or change them to a more creative rather than written type, have you explored that option?
5. In my OPINION the school needs to change to suit your daughters needs....how you can do that you will have to discuss with the school.

Thanks..:)

1. 3 hours==> yes that was how it was last year. On a good night it was maybe And some of it was 'busy work' like writing vocabulary words on index card..lol..Cards don't work for her. Anyway, that is done I would "GAGE" her as well, trying to figure out if it was her taking the 3 hours because she can move slow sometimes or like lightning..Depends on the day. But it was not Just her. It was all of them. Other kids in a higher math for example would add an hour for math...so they were up to 4 hours at times so we were in the 3 range. Thank God it is done. Ironically I liked the teacher as did she. We had differing HW views. I did go to the school for the first time ever about a request and explain that please though I liked the teacher, you cannot put her through this again this year with that kind of HW. You will kill her liking school- it traumatized her! This year has a great group/classmates that she travels to classes with and didn't get the HW people either.

Im very analytical and could not help myself--I actually 'analyzed' it percentage how many tests/quizzes she had per week. That does not count HW, papers, etc. The number was 4.5 AVERAGE. I forget the percentage I worked out but I did this before my meeting.

2. IEP/504- This is a private school so they have what they call 'accommodations' which is like the IEP/504. So yes, that is on file. I do know I didn't have anything on file pertaining to projects because they never had these over the top projects until last year (i.e.state competition level requirements). I do know that for example, the public school would have a project like this 'optional'. I have teacher friends.

3. Tests/Quizzes/Finals- Most classes give study guides. They have midterms and finals.. Midterms since grade 5...It's a lot.....I once had to complain about 9 or 10 in a week last year. I was furious. I don't know how parents would not complain about this (I did). What got me is that fiasco was the same week as the state type standardized testing beginning that Friday that they covet so much.
This year they get no science study guide and I find it a plethora of notes. I wind up helping her organize it to be able to better organize it. But I 100% agree with you 5 is crazy. This week I know she has 3 tests/quiz (plus that big project that started this post was due Monday).

4. Thanks for the tip about IEP/shorten projects. I am definitely going to explore that option. We don't have that.. Can I ask who writes something like that or structures it? You the parent?? or the school? Thanks in advance

5. I agree- re school. They are always willing and do what they can. I don't know how to make sure all teachers comply ...She is so deceptive because as I said she does well, so it is easy to forget something is going on with her. But then other days she may completely forget something or get overwhelmed and I know they are good about telling her 'not to worry'. I guess I need some advice on how to make sure it is enforced. Does mom send the teacher or resource person an email telling them she is overwhelmed? OR that she never received written instruction on the project ??? etc...Or at this age is she responsible for that?? She has one more year after this....so I am really analyzing high schools regarding her getting help if needed. It sounds contradictory but the school has been good for her in many ways. It is this piece that drives me nuts

I am considering public school for high school. Our high school is small so I think that may suit her well and I heard it is good. I don't know how to find out how 'welcoming/accomodating' they are.

Thanks for that suggestion #4....Very good.

Caco3girl
03-15-17, 02:01 PM
Here is the complication.....in order to be accepted by a college the high school has to be "accredited". In order to be an accredited high school there are certain federal and or state standards that must be adhered to. These standards dictate what is allowed to be replaced and what isn't allowed to be replaced in the core curriculum. A school can not for example say "They watched the movie Tom Sawyer rather than reading the book"...that is NOT the standard. They also can't say Jen Smith we think you are special so YOU get to watch the movie rather than read the book. If that happens then the state can say Jen Smith didn't complete the requirements for the course therefore you never took 9th grade literature.

In other words, it's a very fine line and only the school knows where that line is so your kids work load can be lightened but also they still fulfill the requirements of the course and get credit for it. Since you are in a private school you are actually kind of up a creek. They get to pick and choose which areas of the IEP program they want to follow and they don't have to fill out any of the federal paperwork or give her the accommodations she needs.

Also, private school usually equals more homework. In a public school that isn't what happens. However, if a person graduates from a private school they usually get the college spot over a public high school kid because the private school curriculum is so much more challenging. It's a tough call. You would need to meet with the IEP coordinator at the public school prior to her starting there so everything is set when she gets there. I think if you put her in public school she will get A's in everything with 1/2 the work load...but it could affect which college she gets into.

sarahsweets
03-18-17, 10:44 AM
I do believe it is easy to get a ADHD Diagnosis. I know parents who have kids with other condition, and because the NP doesn't know about the other, it is just ADHD. They have be educated on the other conditions. That being said, I believe ADHD truly exists....clearly..I am here:)
Adhd is actually underdiagnosed especially in girls.I think a lot of people think its something easy to walk in and walk out with a diagnosis. Sure, there are people who are misdiagnosed but its sort of more of a myth that is so easy. But youre right, a doctor must rule out all other things before coming to the conclusion that its adhd. Many doctors dont worry about those distinctions and would rather slap any old label on someone less they look incompetent.

Postulate
03-19-17, 07:32 PM
Adhd is actually underdiagnosed especially in girls.I think a lot of people think its something easy to walk in and walk out with a diagnosis. Sure, there are people who are misdiagnosed but its sort of more of a myth that is so easy. But youre right, a doctor must rule out all other things before coming to the conclusion that its adhd. Many doctors dont worry about those distinctions and would rather slap any old label on someone less they look incompetent.

You know, I would go as far as saying that doctors should not disclose the terminology of the diagnosis to the patients. Instead of saying "she has ADHD" the doctor should say "your daughter's attention span is deficient, way below average, so we'll get her some Dexedrine for attention".

The wording of the diagnosis can cause confusion people who go to the doctor like they go to the mechanic to get their car fixed, and don't know much about how the brain works.

Vandeluca
03-23-17, 01:24 AM
You know, I would go as far as saying that doctors should not disclose the terminology of the diagnosis to the patients. Instead of saying "she has ADHD" the doctor should say "your daughter's attention span is deficient, way below average, so we'll get her some Dexedrine for attention".

The wording of the diagnosis can cause confusion people who go to the doctor like they go to the mechanic to get their car fixed, and don't know much about how the brain works.

I logged on here late night after a really busy week plus of not having the luxury to do so, with the plan to catch up on some reading for my and a few other threads I was reading.

TygerSan
03-23-17, 08:32 AM
Things that worked for me to lessen homework load (as a kid in advanced classes with an IEP) were reduced workload (helps with the busy work, especially in subjects that she grasps well). What that looked like for me was doing every other math problem in order to show that I understood the concept, but not beat that concept to death.

That obviously doesn't help with the writing. I write very well, but I also can take a long while to organize my thoughts, especially for longer projects. I don't know that having an extra day or two to work would've helped me any (I am an inveterate procrastinator), but having someone to bounce ideas off of would have.

The index cards are supposed to help kids organize (especially those who have trouble with the structure and function of writing). Unfortunately, standard ways of doing things often don't fit non-standard thinkers.

Caco3girl
03-23-17, 09:41 AM
Things that worked for me to lessen homework load (as a kid in advanced classes with an IEP) were reduced workload (helps with the busy work, especially in subjects that she grasps well). What that looked like for me was doing every other math problem in order to show that I understood the concept, but not beat that concept to death.

That obviously doesn't help with the writing. I write very well, but I also can take a long while to organize my thoughts, especially for longer projects. I don't know that having an extra day or two to work would've helped me any (I am an inveterate procrastinator), but having someone to bounce ideas off of would have.

The index cards are supposed to help kids organize (especially those who have trouble with the structure and function of writing). Unfortunately, standard ways of doing things often don't fit non-standard thinkers.

That's where my son and daughter both are. Standard ways of doing things are not working for them. My son was finally able to get in classes that have linear teaching. XYZ happened. you will be tested on XYZ. The classes he use to have were more of a free thinking style of teaching asking the students:
1. Why do you think Mercutio died in Romeo and Juliet?
2. Could it have been avoided?
3. What resulted from his death?

My son didn't understand what the teacher wanted. His responses would have been literal:
1. Because he had a sword in his chest.
2. Maybe if he had moved to the side he could have avoided the sword.
3. He was dead.

TygerSan
03-23-17, 02:42 PM
My son didn't understand what the teacher wanted. His responses would have been literal:
1. Because he had a sword in his chest.
2. Maybe if he had moved to the side he could have avoided the sword.
3. He was dead.

Any one of the students in the classes I frequent would answer those questions exactly the way your son did. Fortunately, the teachers are tuned in, and redirect/prompt/poke/prod the kids into the more abstract lines of thought.

Part of that is just maturity, however. Kids develop the ability to think abstractly at different ages (from as young as 11 to still struggling to grasp them as adults). If you're not ready, then you're not ready. That's what makes math classes like algebra a challenge as well. If you can't understand what a variable is, it's very difficult to do well in a class that is nothing but abstraction with variables.

Caco3girl
03-23-17, 02:46 PM
Any one of the students in the classes I frequent would answer those questions exactly the way your son did. Fortunately, the teachers are tuned in, and redirect/prompt/poke/prod the kids into the more abstract lines of thought.

Part of that is just maturity, however. Kids develop the ability to think abstractly at different ages (from as young as 11 to still struggling to grasp them as adults). If you're not ready, then you're not ready. That's what makes math classes like algebra a challenge as well. If you can't understand what a variable is, it's very difficult to do well in a class that is nothing but abstraction with variables.

I once asked him why math was his favorite and best subject and he said "Because there is ONE answer." He's 14, last year is when he was diagnosed with ADHD and it was me jumping up and down saying "He is failing three classes but has an A in advanced Math you can't tell me something isn't wrong here!"

Vandeluca
03-23-17, 04:58 PM
Funny...mine likes math too! She has to work at it but does really well..Never in a million years did I think math would be one of her best. She also has a knack for grammar too, which is difficult so I am told for some.

dvdnvwls
03-24-17, 12:54 AM
There are so many "it dependses". :)

I don't think it's always clear why one thing and why not another, though I'm sure there are some general trends.

I ended up with a strength in language (grammar, spelling, vocabulary, foreign languages, etc) and a major weakness in spatial and visual.

So, I may be a bit of a language master, but in terms of space I'm definitely not a master - more like one of those novice space trainees... what were they called again... Oh yeah - I'm a space cadet. ;)

sarahsweets
03-24-17, 02:53 AM
You know, I would go as far as saying that doctors should not disclose the terminology of the diagnosis to the patients. Instead of saying "she has ADHD" the doctor should say "your daughter's attention span is deficient, way below average, so we'll get her some Dexedrine for attention".

The wording of the diagnosis can cause confusion people who go to the doctor like they go to the mechanic to get their car fixed, and don't know much about how the brain works.

I think in the case of a child the idea of going to a doc like someone who would go to the mechanic wouldnt apply.