View Full Version : How best to help my ADHD husband?


Tabitha123
04-06-17, 11:09 AM
I feel really alone right now. My husband was diagnosed with ADHD a few months ago and has been on Adderall, which helps. He's also seeing an ADHD therapist. But he's not doing well. He goes through these "foggy" periods where he has very limited focus times. Last month was unusually foggy, so he's frustrated with himself because he's getting almost nothing done at work and is trying to work nights and weekends just to keep up.

- He had a 10 year cap on his PhD program and worked on it UNTIL TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE DEADLINE because he just couldn't stay focused enough to finish it before then

- I'm an Ebay power seller and my husband works on the business with me. We specialize in rare vintage, and he's an expert in the field, so he does the buying. But he's struggled with compulsive spending - can't let a good deal pass, even if it puts us into debt to buy it. And you wouldn't believe the endless towers of merchandise in our basement. He has spent YEARS 'organizing' it - to my eyes, shifting piles from one place to another, instead of just incorporating it into inventory.

- When he's fuzzy-headed (a lot of the time), he's grumpy. He needs a lot of "alone time" so he can try to force himself to focus. He's exhausted from the effort and doesn't have the energy to do much with me.

- There are lots of tasks that I want us to work together on or that need to get done (house stuff, etc.). Because of his poor time management, most of his free time gets spend in his special way of puttering and organizing in our basement, which I can't participate in because it's illogical to me and the puttering is soothing to him, so I don't want to take this relaxing activity away from him.

I love my husband, more than anything. He is so sweet, so kind, and so gentle. I would do anything for him. I hate to see him suffering. I want to help him. But nagging hasn't helped. Buying books hasn't helped. Giving him notebooks and timers hasn't helped. I don't want to DO EVERYTHING, but I don't want things to go undone. I want to support and encourage him, but I'm continually frustrated by his methods. I'm ultra logical and organized, and his ways are pretty maddening.

Just not sure what to do.

dvdnvwls
04-06-17, 12:48 PM
Can you describe exactly what one of the fuzzy-headed times is like for you?

Separate question: What does he say those times are like for him?

The most basic and most correct advice I can give so far is about needs vs wants, and about expectations.

Do you need him to stop spending into debt, or is that just a want? (I'm guessing it's a real need, but it's better to ask.)

Do you need most of the basement items to be in inventory, or is that a want?

He needs the alone time, it's not a want. Are you happy to go along with that?

Tabitha123
04-06-17, 04:16 PM
His 'fuzzy-headed' times are, for me, like interacting with someone who has a severe migraine, or who's just woken up.

For him, he'd say that during those times, he is absolutely unable to focus a thought to get projects done. He can pick away at the edges of things - tidy his workspace, answer a few emails, so some minor things - but he is 100% unable to focus enough to get anything meaningful done. There are varying degrees of fogginess but the last month has been the worst ever.

Mostly, for me, it's a WANT. I *want* the basement to be clean and organized, not like a hoarder's nest. I *want* (and need) him to stop overspending (he is genuinely trying - he now runs all bigger purchases past me first). I'm just now understanding about the NEED for alone time. I do let him have it when he needs it, but it's hard because I'm home alone all day and love to talk to him when he gets home. I've asked for him to be specific with me: "I need x-hours undisturbed time." It's not easy, though.

Pilgrim
04-06-17, 05:50 PM
A big mistake is to think that ist by choice.

When. I struggle supportive people get me through.

dvdnvwls
04-06-17, 06:25 PM
The difference I was trying to get at was, a want is something you'd be able to let go of, to resolve to permanently do without and never worry about it again. A need, you cannot do without - you must have it or else.

For example, the basement - are you seriously satisfied if it never changes one bit? What is your need vs your want? Be honest - it's you who has to live with it.

Little Missy
04-06-17, 06:27 PM
There is a big difference between need and want.

dvdnvwls
04-06-17, 06:33 PM
About the thread title...

Who needs and wants this help? Is your husband satisfied with the basement? If he's satisfied, then he doesn't need help.

ToneTone
04-07-17, 12:01 AM
This may seem like a minor point, but it's not.

Are you the one recommending timers and the like or he is trying those out on his own, based on his own research and his own discoveries?

We can benefit from support from other people, but frankly to make real progress, the person with the condition needs to own the condition and the process of minimizing the condition.

There is something about having autonomy and making our own choices that paradoxically makes it possible to make changes. Changes are threatening and when we are constantly told by someone we love that we need to change in x way, well it's like being parented ... and no adult likes being parented ... at least not regularly so. Even if you are sweet and polite and all of that, it really gets tiring to be the subject of so many "suggestions."

Owning the process of change really allows the person to feel powerful when they make a discovery that helps them. When you recommend everything, he can't really credit himself for the progress. He's only doing what he "should" be doing. What he needs is encouragement, especially when he makes constructive moods ...

Also, it's much better for the relationship if he were to take charge of his own ADHD issues ... You sound really wonderful and loving ... But that can wear down if you are parenting him over time ... On the other hand, if you see him taking the initiative, you are much more likely to feel good about him and your relationship with him.

Finally, ADHD people ideally will work jobs that do NOT involve tedious work and record keeping and all of that ... that's not our strength. What does he do well that's outside of the business you run? ...

So yes, part of our journey is to do better with tedious stuff ... and another part of the journey is to find ways to contribute to the world and to work that do not involve us spending hours and hours on work that wears down our brains and leaves us drained.

Tone

dvdnvwls
04-07-17, 02:14 AM
I agree with Tone in every detail.

Just want to add that it's perfectly legitimate if (for example) you're the one who needs help with the basement. But it's very important to have the who's who straight.

Tabitha123
04-07-17, 10:03 AM
I'm the one making the suggestions. Truthfully, he's so harried from working all day at work and then coming home and trying to get caught up - plus his PT work with our business - he just doesn't have the time or the energy to do research. So he's encouraged me to pass along any tips that I find.

About the basement - the issue is not "Oh, he's so messy, I can't stand the clutter." The issue is that I think it's unhealthy for him to spend four years of weekends continually working on something that never gets done. In my eyes, it's a huge time waste, our personal time together as well as his own time. Our basement is not very big, but is stacked to the ceiling with boxes of merchandise for our business that are unpacked, repacked, and pushed into a stack. I've tried to come up with a system - "Something comes in, let's examine it and file it. Move to the next." but he can't keep up with it. He has a million non-basement things that he WANTS to do, but he seems doomed to push piles around with no progress - a true sisyphean task. I've said: "Let's take a weekend. We'll do the whole basement together." I'm very logical/organized and can clearly see what needs to be done. We've tried it. He gets bogged down with little things and can't make progress/decisions. I think it's affecting his quality of life, truly. I suppose the counterargument is that it's his time to waste. I guess I can't argue with that, other than to say that I think it's unhealthy when something becomes so time-consuming that it negatively affects many aspects of one's life.

Johnny Slick
04-07-17, 12:45 PM
I agree and disagree with what Pilgrim is saying. I disagree because everyone has their own ways of dealing with ADHD and just because relying on a support network is what worked for Pilgrim doesn't mean it's going to work for your husband. At the same time I do agree with the basic tenets of it in that IMO the real insidious aspect of ADHD isn't so much the way you tend to blurt out stuff or get easily distracted by squirrels, it's the coping mechanisms you come up with to deal with all of this stuff. For me, a big fat part of that coping was to not allow other people into my life*. It would not surprise me if your husband has similar issues.

If I were you I might work to pay less attention to the straight-up ADHD stuff - although even there you'll do well to accept that that the procrastination and so on are just part of his condition, even if he doesn't accept this himself - and focus more on the ancillary stuff. Some doctors have even given it a name: Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. If your husband hasn't introduced this to your dyad's vocabulary, maybe research it?

Beyond that, I have to recommend the book You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid, or Crazy?

The strength of this book is how it goes beyond the ADHD and gets into the RSD (which they don't use by name, but its "spirit" is clearly invoked) and coping mechanisms and how people deal (and sometimes don't deal) with all of it. If you're thinking about starting a family with this person, I'd doubly recommend it because ADHD appears to have a very strong genetic component (in my case, it's my dad's side of the family, and by "his side" I mean, like, him and his mom and his brother and a whole crap-ton of my cousins all have it, oh and also both me and at least one and perhaps two of my brothers and I'm not going to count out my sister either) and if you have kids chances are that at least one of them will *totally* have this condition as well.

OK, this is now novel-length but HEY YOU ARE THE ONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE ADHD SO I WILL STILL CONTINUE and I just wanted to touch briefly on each of your specifics:

- The foggy periods. Yeah, I think it's just part of the territory unfortunately. Is your hubby experiencing any bad side effects (like nausea, for example) that make him not want to maybe try upping the dosage? Conversely, has he tried taking something different like Ritalin? I know that both Adderall and Ritalin are *supposed* to act on the same receptors but they do behave differently in different people.

- The deadlines are also a big thing and I would go so far as to say that they can be a really great positive motivator for those of us with this condition. It's not that he's lazy per se (and I can read that you know this from your post but I still want to make this clear), it's that it is, like, virtually impossible for us to not be distracted unless we contort our brains into hyperfocus.

- I totally get the grumpiness too. TBH before I started taking Ritalin last December, what you are describing out of your husband sounds to me like "mornings before my cup of coffee". Thank you, by the way, for perceiving (correctly, I think) that he's cross because of the effort it takes to concentrate, not because he's necessarily mad at you or something.

- Regarding doing housework and so on, can you maybe collaborate on that by setting up schedules for both him and yourself? Personally, as an ADHD person my phone is a godsend because otherwise I would totally forget about important appointments. It's not even that I'm doing other things that are "soothing", it's that, well, the inability to concentrate while off my meds coupled with the weird (to me) concentration I get when I'm on them means that I will just plain forget about stuff unless I'm reminded. I'm not saying you have to be "that person" in your relationship - I'm sure neither you nor your husband want you to act like a micromanaging boss or anything - but, you know, maybe if you sat down with him and said "okay, on Saturday from 10 to 2 I want to clean the house, let's put that on your phone", that might work?

- Finally, yeah, I don't know that there's a lot of getting around the fact that a lot of us with ADHD kind of live our lives with this general sense of lightly organized chaos. It's how our brain naturally works and especially for those of us who were diagnosed late, it's sometimes hard to even imagine there are other ways of doing things. I will say that *some* ADHDers go to the other extreme - outlining their lives in meticulous detail precisely because they know that they *can't* do this all in their head - but that doesn't sound like your husband. I'm not going to say "hey, just let him be him and stuff will get done" because IME a fat lot of things don't get done until it's almost too late or it is too late. So... I guess all I can say here is... I feel your pain and while I can't offer solutions to this, you do have my condolences?

*It's a long story and I've told it a zillion times in here I think so people are likely bored with it, but hey, maybe it'll help cast insight on your husband so I'll try to explain it as briefly as possible. In order to get myself to keep the blurty outbursts and the interrupting and the getting easily distracted stuff to a dull roar of ADHDness I had to tell myself "dude, nobody wants to hear that crap; THINK before you talk". In turn this led to "dude, nobody is going to want to know you all that well once they understand that the core of your being is a lazy, unempathetic *******". As a result of all of this I just kind of maintained a calm, easygoing shell and never let myself get too close to anyone. I'm not saying this "worked" in the sense of "in spite of undiagnosed ADHD I totally led a productive and happy life", but it absolutely *did* cut down on the number of times I said dumb things to complete strangers and, since I treated even people nominally close to me as something akin to strangers, I'm sure it made me easier to be around in general.

Now that I know that the "laziness" was just my brain not filtering out outside stimuli and the "unempathetic *******" bit was also my brain not prefiltering thoughts before they escaped my mouth, and I'm lucky enough that medication (and, I've discovered, dopamine) makes the filter work much better, I can now accept that the self-hate is no longer necessary and in fact is actually pretty damn self-destructive. However, even that has been a process; I feel a whole hell of a lot less self-hate and narcissism than I did 3 months ago but I'd be lying if I told you it was all gone.

dvdnvwls
04-07-17, 02:18 PM
There are probably better ways to look at this, but I think I have some insight here because I have a very similar situation in my life. I too have stacks of stuff that get shuffled endlessly without progress, and I have a friend who feels the same ways you do about it. For me, the things in question are in storage, so it's also costing me money to not move them.

First, there's an incorrect assumption that I even know what's there. I don't have the spatial awareness or the working memory to keep the things in mind. My friend just can't conceive of the possibility that I go in among my own stuff and feel lost and confused and overwhelmed, because (short of developing dementia) she could never have that experience with her own things. She knows I have ADHD, but is not particularly sensitive or curious about it - to her, it's an insignificant obstacle to be bulldozed aside in order to "git 'er dun".

Second, that scares me. I feel threatened that she wants to get through my stuff as quickly as possible, before I even have a chance to get everything straightened out in my mind. I need a LOT of time to organize, because unless I personally and laboriously keep track of every detail, I feel lost and out of control.

Third, ... that last word, "control". Or even "ownership". My inadequate skills don't suddenly make it not my stuff. I feel, much like an old person with dementia I suppose, an acute sense of loss of independence when anyone (even a loved one, though in my case it's just a kind friend) tries to go through my things without my specific control of each item.

I feel as though a lot of what I need and want in this situation are things that average people are able to take for granted - autonomy, ownership of one's things, control of the disposition of those things.

Tabitha123
04-07-17, 04:05 PM
dvdnvwls, thanks for your comments. I think the problem is twofold: 1) he enjoys organizing and re-organizing these piles (into other piles). 2) he feels overwhelmed at the thought of actually putting them away. I try to be sensitive about this. Heck, I didn't say anything about it for FOUR YEARS because I understood that...but finally I had to say: can't we just be DONE with this already?

Johnny Slick, thanks for the book idea. I'm getting ready to check the library. I've actually heard of that book before. I hope it helps! He isn't experiencing nausea or anything but hesitates to up his dosage since it's so addictive. I wouldn't say that he's grumpy with ME. He tries really hard to be 'normal.' I think that's the whole problem. He feels like he's letting his boss down, since he's suddenly not getting anything done. He feels like he's letting me down, since he's not really very 'present' right now and has to spend so much time alone. He feels like he's letting himself down, because no matter how hard he pushes/tries, he can't get any better. It's just a really sad time for both of us. :(

dvdnvwls
04-07-17, 04:49 PM
Short version: It's a serious insult and a frightening experience to have another person take charge of my things without my specific consent - and even the perceived threat that that might happen is enough to cause me pretty serious distress.

dormammau2008
04-07-17, 05:25 PM
its a stuff call? to say I have adhd and I don't do the drugs as they make me worce but for others its a god send I live be a very restic diet and what I wash with clean with it all adds up the loud I call it if I push it to hard and go over the loud then I pay the price, but again others it works diff in,,,,theres some very intresting reseach which might be making things worce for him,,,,i would perhaps space the meditcan or lower the dose....it might help him I hope he imporves

Lunacie
04-07-17, 05:35 PM
dvdnvwls, thanks for your comments. I think the problem is twofold: 1) he enjoys organizing and re-organizing these piles (into other piles). 2) he feels overwhelmed at the thought of actually putting them away. I try to be sensitive about this. Heck, I didn't say anything about it for FOUR YEARS because I understood that...but finally I had to say: can't we just be DONE with this already?

Johnny Slick, thanks for the book idea. I'm getting ready to check the library. I've actually heard of that book before. I hope it helps! He isn't experiencing nausea or anything but hesitates to up his dosage since it's so addictive. I wouldn't say that he's grumpy with ME. He tries really hard to be 'normal.' I think that's the whole problem. He feels like he's letting his boss down, since he's suddenly not getting anything done. He feels like he's letting me down, since he's not really very 'present' right now and has to spend so much time alone. He feels like he's letting himself down, because no matter how hard he pushes/tries, he can't get any better. It's just a really sad time for both of us. :(

If stimulant meds like Adderall are taken as prescribed by the doctor
and monitored by the doctor at appropriate intervals (like 3 months),
the chance of addiction is very, very low.

It would be like getting addicted to insulin because your body needs it.
If the brain needs these meds and you're giving it what it needs, addiction
is just not a real concern as long as you're not chasing some euphoric feel.

dvdnvwls
04-07-17, 05:55 PM
Maybe trying hard to be "normal" is one of the main problems.

It's very much as if you tried - all on your own, without moving and without taking any courses - to be from Iceland, so that Icelanders couldn't spot that you were a foreigner.

My ex-wife waited many more years than you have - at least triple the amount of time, perhaps more. I don't think she felt in the end that it had been worth the wait.

Instead of waiting, find out in your own mind exactly what YOUR real difficulties are with the current situation. Not ways that you think he should improve, not things that you think he needs to do - but parts of the situation that you are not going to accept any more. Keep the personalities and the names out of it.

Then: Recognize that your current methods for trying to deal with those things are all proven failures. (More than a year is already ample proof.) Get creative. Think of some possible new ways to solve your problems.

Then: Run those ideas past your husband and see what he thinks of them. Maybe he'll be happy with them. Maybe he'll be inspired to help you with the problems you have, and come up with other ideas.

But keep in mind, and keep emphasizing to yourself, that what you're out to solve are YOUR problems. As soon as you get involved with solving someone else's problems, you're out of bounds. For example, "I can't handle the basement being this cluttered" is your problem and you can try to solve it. "My husband needs to clean the basement", on the other hand, is (for this purpose) none of your business.

Sunflower009
04-07-17, 07:46 PM
Is your husband in therapy? Does he bring up these issues with the therapist so he can work out some ideas for how to deal with it? I agree with the other comments that he won't really get anywhere unless HE is in charge of his ADHD (meaning that he is actively trying to understand it and improve, and actively looking for new ways to work with it). It sounds kind of like he is delegating this job to you becuase he feels like he doesn't have time for it. Remind him that taking out an hour a week or so is a lot less than the hours and hours lost to being distracted and disorganized. (Beleieve me I know from experience!!!!!) It is an investment with exponential returns.

Regarding medication, what makes him say that it is so addictive? Could it be that he likes the feeling of it being effective, and that makes him think it's wrong? I am not a psychiatrist, but my feeling is that maybe he is shying away from getting the full effect out of it becuase it feels foreign to him. And with ADHD it really is fine if the medication lasts your whole life, so why would he worry about becoming "addicted"? Does he want to stop taking it after finishing the PhD? I think he should discuss this fear (and his plans for how to continue or stop in the future with the psychaiatrist and maybe they will shed some light for him.

Regarding the piles - I know the problem all too well. When I used to try to clean out my old school papers I would get bogged down in every tiny detail, either reminiscing about stuff, or being confused about how to sort them into different categories, becuase there were just so many different unique things about each item. It got to the point where I just threw almost everything away becuase I couldn't deal with it. I'm still a bit traumatized about it....

One thing I've found VERY important when trying to sort things or put things away, is to have designated places for things. I'm not sure how this would apply to his boxes (like what types of things are in there...? And where would they go if they were put away?) But basically it is nearly impossible to organize if you haven't first established a system, a place where things should go (which is actually EMPTY!!) and a set of rules for how to sort stuff. Then you can go through the whole thing working more like a robot, and you don't get bogged down in details of stuff, and it is easier to re-focus by simply reading the rules again.

You might think you have all that, but for ADHD it has to be SUPER clear - and visable. For example actually make physical boxes with colors on them and big signs saying which stuff goes in that box. Also define and print out a copy of the "rules for sorting", and tape it on the wall next to him so he can keep refering to it. It is important though, that he is on board with all this - he can define the rules or you can help him define them, but don't just do it and tell him about it. What I mean by rules is really more like an algorythm or a set of steps to do... for example: Items older than 100 years - identify the date and write it on a sticker, then put it in the red box.

Even if this may seem totally obvious to you, believe me it helps us with ADHD a TON to just sit down and make the rules, and then to have them right in front of you while working. Especially if you are facing a lot of clutter or overwhealm, it is very difficult to keep focused on what you came there to do.

Another idea of what may be causing the fuzzy brain feeling when he is working on the basement is this - are there too many inputs at the same time? ADHD causes problems with working memory, which means we often can't handle more than a few inputs at once. So for example, if all the boxes are closed, it will be a LOT easier than if all the boxes are slightly open and he can see the stuff inside them. Maybe he even has to take one box into another room to work on it so he doesn't get distracted by the other boxes. I am very curious what is his thinking behind reorganizing the piles rather than putting the stuff away? Is he trying to categorize them first? Does he maybe have the idea that it will be more efficient to put them away once they are sorted a certain way? It would help us give suggestions if you could elaborate that here.

GOod luck to both of you!

dvdnvwls
04-07-17, 08:23 PM
I believe having a non-ADHD spouse's strategy determine how an ADHD spouse's belongings will be sorted and put away would be a complete disaster. Sure, the things would be put away - but the ADHD spouse would be so lost, and feel so belittled and disregarded, that things might never be OK between them again.

ToneTone
04-08-17, 01:27 AM
Hate to say, but you know ... there is no such thing as "organizing a space" with finality. I've organized various living spaces and rooms hundreds of times, but as others have said, without a system, things quickly return to the previous disorganization.

This conversation has been so helpful ... in recent years, I've gotten more comfortable with throwing things out ... so many records are online now ... I don't try to keep them ... I try to purge excess clothes ... books ... I even donated underwear to a charity when I realized I had so many pair that I was delaying my wash cycle for far too long.

It's just really hard to have a romantic partner help us with organizing our stuff beyond a certain point ... Too easy for that person to start to feel more mature/more serious/more grownup ... and too easy for the other person to feel more immature and incompetent.

I have a non-romantic friend who helps me a lot with organizing my things. At this point, he understands that any organizing system for me needs to be EXTREMELY SIMPLE. Anything complicated, and I'm not following through ... I won't even remember how to follow through--let alone do the follow through. What's so helpful is that my friend has ZERO emotional investment in my organization or messiness. He is simply willing to help me ... and he knows I'd like a prettier living space.

So interesting to think this: I'm totally willing to be with a highly organized partner, but I can't go into the relationship at all apologizing about my ways with space. What a challenge, it seems, huh?!

Tone

dvdnvwls
04-08-17, 12:47 PM
Huh. Thanks, Tone. That's an important point for me - my helpful friend/acquaintance is extremely effective in her brusque way, but even though it's not her stuff, she does seem emotionally invested in its getting done. And that multiplies my stress... which (irritatingly for both of us) also multiplies the time till completion.


Sunflower: I wanted to say something earlier, and I couldn't figure out what it was, but now I think I know.

I think this whole conversation has to be about politics and sensitivity and successful relationships, not about organizing tips. Because IMO the point is helping the husband, not helping the wife to help the husband to clean the basement. Cleaning basements is relatively easy. Relationships are not.

Nobody hangs wallpaper anymore. :)
(There's an old half-true joke that putting up wallpaper together is the ultimate test of a relationship.) ...But we still have basements. :)

Tabitha123
04-09-17, 10:52 AM
He just started therapy and hasn't gotten around to "time management strategies" yet...still giving all the background information.

I mentioned the ADHD/Adderall/not addictive/chemical replacement info to him and he's going to talk to his doctor about it!

I wasn't trying to put away his stuff for him so I wouldn't have to see it, but wanted to make it into something we could do together. What we're talking about now is to have set times for him to be in the basement and other times where he leaves it alone. I hope it works.

Something really exciting that we're talking about is him leaving his professional career and building up my business to make it a full-time job for BOTH of us. He has the knowledge and the contacts and the experience. I'm positive that he would be SO much happier if he could structure his work time around his hyper-focus times. Really, everything about running the business is appealing to him. The only thing that's slowing us down is the (sigh) health insurance aspect. Scary and expensive to self-pay. Anyway, just something we're talking about.

sarahsweets
04-20-17, 12:57 AM
He just started therapy and hasn't gotten around to "time management strategies" yet...still giving all the background information.

I mentioned the ADHD/Adderall/not addictive/chemical replacement info to him and he's going to talk to his doctor about it!

I wasn't trying to put away his stuff for him so I wouldn't have to see it, but wanted to make it into something we could do together. What we're talking about now is to have set times for him to be in the basement and other times where he leaves it alone. I hope it works.
Its good to do things together, my husband and I do this when something is overwhelming. We pre-set an amount of time and then take breaks. We might say "we are working on this for a half hour (or hour, or 15 min) and then we take a 15 min break. It works.


Something really exciting that we're talking about is him leaving his professional career and building up my business to make it a full-time job for BOTH of us. He has the knowledge and the contacts and the experience. I'm positive that he would be SO much happier if he could structure his work time around his hyper-focus times. Really, everything about running the business is appealing to him. The only thing that's slowing us down is the (sigh) health insurance aspect. Scary and expensive to self-pay. Anyway, just something we're talking about.

This sounds like a good possibility but I urge you to remain realistic. You may think he would be more happier and more of a go-getter with his contacts and experience but it he fails he will be letting down the woman he loves instead of a boss at work.