View Full Version : Sexual harassement or just trouble embracing diversity?


Postulate
04-25-17, 06:58 PM
I have experienced many times, and confirmed with my male friends the existence of a trend in certain men and women who flirt with you without having any interest in you. Whether their interest could have been material, sexual or spiritual, there is absolutely no interest involved but they're all over you! And when you finally ask them out they reply "What? Are you drunk? "

Comments can range from the casual "doing anything tonight?" to things not allowed to be read on this forum but it can get pretty sexual, pretty fast. My friends often report feeling worthless, without value and being laughed at when a woman makes interest-less advances towards them.

I also found out that in certain cultures, it's perfectly fine to flirt without interest and both parties profit from it. I was just wondering since this seems to make me and my friends uncomfortable, is this not sexual harassment? And if we ask them to stop, could this be interpreted as not embracing diversity?

finallyfound10
04-25-17, 08:36 PM
I am single, never married so still theoretically in a position to experience this type of behavior and have in the past when I actually went out socially.

I think that some people have flirtatious personalities and they really aren't aware of it but then there are those who take things right to the edge by sending out all kinds of signals but they really aren't interested romantically. I don't understand guys or girls who do this. Maybe it gives them a sense of power or control.

I guess the old adage of "If a guy likes you, he will ask you out" still holds true and not all that other other nonsense that they do.

If someone is perpetrating real sexually harassment that falls into a different class and people are legally protected and it needs to be reported but I think that some people innocently don't know where the line is when they are interacting with people and what one person considers sexual harassment another may not at all.

I don't have any real advice but I understand.

Postulate
04-25-17, 09:02 PM
I am single, never married so still theoretically in a position to experience this type of behavior and have in the past when I actually went out socially.

I think that some people have flirtatious personalities and they really aren't aware of it but then there are those who take things right to the edge by sending out all kinds of signals but they really aren't interested romantically. I don't understand guys or girls who do this. Maybe it gives them a sense of power or control.

I guess the old adage of "If a guy likes you, he will ask you out" still holds true and not all that other other nonsense that they do.

If someone is perpetrating real sexually harassment that falls into a different class and people are legally protected and it needs to be reported but I think that some people innocently don't know where the line is when they are interacting with people and what one person considers sexual harassment another may not at all.

I don't have any real advice but I understand.

Well, Romanians have a saying "if you enter the woodshed, the pigs will eat you" referring to the fact that if a person from a higher socio-economic status mingles with people of a much lower socio-economic status, he will experience rough times. But socio-economic status doesn't seem to be the explanation to this misery! I have experienced this miserable behaviour from educated women, father a lawyer, mother an accountant, I asked her if she would like me to buy her a gift for the weekend she's like, I'm into this I'm into that, so I buy her something, then I ask her what time she can go out with me she's like, oh I'm seeing someone right now, but thanks!

Has anyone experienced this misery? Where is this coming from? How can she not know, if I told her that I like her, that I would date her and if I told her I would buy her something for the date, how can she say yes and then decline on the date saying I'm not her type? I expect this type of misery to occur if you're walking in a drug-infested neighborhood where people hang out with needles in their arms, if you walk in such a neighborhood, bad things may happen to you, you may catch a beer bottle on your head or a prostitute can tell you you're awesome and she likes you and ask you for your pin, but, here we're not talking about that type of setting. Why is this misery occurring in a classy setting is what I don't understand. Did she expect me to buy her a gift so she could date someone else? How can anybody bear this insult?

Postulate
04-25-17, 09:41 PM
See, I come from a culture where men respect women and vice-versa. When a woman makes sexual comments to me, I act genuine, I reciprocate if I like her, or tell her she's not my type if I don't. I'm being serious and mature about the whole thing, a bit naive perhaps, but serious. Because respecting her is taking what she says seriously right? If I assume she doesn't know what she's talking about, that she's drunk or on drugs and don't take what she says seriously, how would that be respectful towards her? So if she says she likes me, I consider she's sober, not drunk, not on drugs, and that she means it. Am I wrong in doing so?

Hermus
04-26-17, 02:55 AM
I have experienced many times, and confirmed with my male friends the existence of a trend in certain men and women who flirt with you without having any interest in you. Whether their interest could have been material, sexual or spiritual, there is absolutely no interest involved but they're all over you! And when you finally ask them out they reply "What? Are you drunk? "

Comments can range from the casual "doing anything tonight?" to things not allowed to be read on this forum but it can get pretty sexual, pretty fast. My friends often report feeling worthless, without value and being laughed at when a woman makes interest-less advances towards them.

I also found out that in certain cultures, it's perfectly fine to flirt without interest and both parties profit from it. I was just wondering since this seems to make me and my friends uncomfortable, is this not sexual harassment? And if we ask them to stop, could this be interpreted as not embracing diversity?

Maybe you have your expectations too high. When someone flirts with you, it doesn't necessarily mean she is interested in more. (At least not in my culture.) Flirting can be satisfactory in it's own right, without needing to take it to a further level. Learn to enjoy the moment, instead of forming expectations.

I don't completely see how flirting without wanting to take it to a further level would constitute sexual harassment. Although if it makes you uncomfortable, you express that and someone goes on regardless of that, that is harassment. I think it all has to do with consent. If someone makes advances despite the absence of consent, that's where it becomes harassment.

Well, Romanians have a saying "if you enter the woodshed, the pigs will eat you" referring to the fact that if a person from a higher socio-economic status mingles with people of a much lower socio-economic status, he will experience rough times. But socio-economic status doesn't seem to be the explanation to this misery! I have experienced this miserable behaviour from educated women, father a lawyer, mother an accountant, I asked her if she would like me to buy her a gift for the weekend she's like, I'm into this I'm into that, so I buy her something, then I ask her what time she can go out with me she's like, oh I'm seeing someone right now, but thanks!

Has anyone experienced this misery? Where is this coming from? How can she not know, if I told her that I like her, that I would date her and if I told her I would buy her something for the date, how can she say yes and then decline on the date saying I'm not her type? I expect this type of misery to occur if you're walking in a drug-infested neighborhood where people hang out with needles in their arms, if you walk in such a neighborhood, bad things may happen to you, you may catch a beer bottle on your head or a prostitute can tell you you're awesome and she likes you and ask you for your pin, but, here we're not talking about that type of setting. Why is this misery occurring in a classy setting is what I don't understand. Did she expect me to buy her a gift so she could date someone else? How can anybody bear this insult?

Maybe you should stop trying to win women over by gifts. Instead win them over with your character and the way you treat her. If you offer someone a gift, that doesn't mean that they owe you anything in return.

See, I come from a culture where men respect women and vice-versa. When a woman makes sexual comments to me, I act genuine, I reciprocate if I like her, or tell her she's not my type if I don't. I'm being serious and mature about the whole thing, a bit naive perhaps, but serious. Because respecting her is taking what she says seriously right? If I assume she doesn't know what she's talking about, that she's drunk or on drugs and don't take what she says seriously, how would that be respectful towards her? So if she says she likes me, I consider she's sober, not drunk, not on drugs, and that she means it. Am I wrong in doing so?

Yes, if someone says she likes you, you are right by respecting that and taking her serious. You might say you like her or that she's not your type. But that a woman likes you still doesn't mean you automatically can expect more.

It seems to me like you have a lot of expectations. Instead enjoy the moment without immediately expecting anything more.

sarahsweets
04-26-17, 04:37 AM
I have experienced many times, and confirmed with my male friends the existence of a trend in certain men and women who flirt with you without having any interest in you. Whether their interest could have been material, sexual or spiritual, there is absolutely no interest involved but they're all over you! And when you finally ask them out they reply "What? Are you drunk? "

Comments can range from the casual "doing anything tonight?" to things not allowed to be read on this forum but it can get pretty sexual, pretty fast. My friends often report feeling worthless, without value and being laughed at when a woman makes interest-less advances towards them.

I also found out that in certain cultures, it's perfectly fine to flirt without interest and both parties profit from it. I was just wondering since this seems to make me and my friends uncomfortable, is this not sexual harassment? And if we ask them to stop, could this be interpreted as not embracing diversity?

Sexual Harassment usually has to do with a person being in a position of power, like a boss and suboridnate. Not always but a lot of times. So if a supervisor makes comments to the employee that are sexually harassing the employee feels obligated to take it because they fear losing their job. Sexual harassment is also prevalent in jobs dominated by a certain sex, where the majority of workers are one sex and they make comments and create an unsafe workspace for the worker in the minority or of the less prevalent, opposite sex.
Saying someone is sexually harassing you because they say say no to your advances after they flirt with you is ridiculous. No one has obligation to say yes even if they are flirting. That sort of thing is subjective. what you might see as flirting, someone else may see as being friendly.

EuropeanADHD
04-26-17, 06:50 AM
See, I come from a culture where men respect women and vice-versa. When a woman makes sexual comments to me, I act genuine, I reciprocate if I like her, or tell her she's not my type if I don't. I'm being serious and mature about the whole thing, a bit naive perhaps, but serious. Because respecting her is taking what she says seriously right? If I assume she doesn't know what she's talking about, that she's drunk or on drugs and don't take what she says seriously, how would that be respectful towards her? So if she says she likes me, I consider she's sober, not drunk, not on drugs, and that she means it. Am I wrong in doing so?

Not sure if you mean you come from a different culture (country) than the one you're living in now or if you mean your family background here.

You don't clarify in your messages what you mean as "sexual comments". What are these? Smiling at someone and being flirty definitely isn't sexual harassment, it doesn't even mean someone is into you. Not to mention that both women and men do that. Sexual harassment would be if these women touched you at work without you letting them know they can touch you. Or if they comment on your, to give you an example, hot body. Or if they ask you directly if you want to have sex with them if they haven't had a serious reason to think you do (it would be different if, for example, you date for a while and then they ask you that).

If you come from a more conservative country then you probably just don't understand all the signals that are sent by other people in the culture you are currently living in.

And this has nothing to do with women not respecting you. The fact that a woman likes you doesn't mean she wants to date you or have sex with you.

Unmanagable
04-26-17, 10:14 AM
You seem to be defining sexual harassment as being a case where someone does what you perceive as flirting, you then buy them a gift fully expecting the flirting to lead to sex, but then you are denied that opportunity. No. That's not sexual harassment.

midnightstar
04-26-17, 10:22 AM
You seem to be defining sexual harassment as being a case where someone does what you perceive as flirting, you then buy them a gift fully expecting the flirting to lead to sex, but then you are denied that opportunity. No. That's not sexual harassment.

:goodpost: My understanding of sexual harassment is when one gender is giving the other one unwanted attention and refuses to take no for an answer. If they are actively flirting with you and you tell them to stop and they don't stop and instead start to increase the sexual advances and make sexual comments, my understanding is that is sexual harassment.

I could be misunderstanding what sexual harassment is (stupid learning disability) but that's what I understand it to be :)

sarahsweets
04-26-17, 01:27 PM
See, I come from a culture where men respect women and vice-versa. When a woman makes sexual comments to me, I act genuine, I reciprocate if I like her, or tell her she's not my type if I don't. I'm being serious and mature about the whole thing, a bit naive perhaps, but serious.
I think sexual comments need to be defined here. If she says " I bet you are well endowed" and is talking about your naughty bits, I would sat that can be taken as out of line. If she says something like " your a cutie pie" I dont see that as sexual. And i dont know if saying "youre not my type" is the same thing as "your comments make me uncomfortable". if you say she is not your type, she could get the impression that sexual comments are welcome.

Because respecting her is taking what she says seriously right? If I assume she doesn't know what she's talking about, that she's drunk or on drugs and don't take what she says seriously, how would that be respectful towards her?
I think being respectful is not playing the quid pro quo game when it comes to sexual comments. It shows much more respect to treat her as a person rather than an object even if she is not doing the same to you.

dvdnvwls
04-26-17, 03:40 PM
Original post: Did the situation really happen just that way, or was it somewhat fictionalized for forum purposes?

Postulate
04-26-17, 07:44 PM
Sexual Harassment usually has to do with a person being in a position of power, like a boss and suboridnate. Not always but a lot of times. So if a supervisor makes comments to the employee that are sexually harassing the employee feels obligated to take it because they fear losing their job. Sexual harassment is also prevalent in jobs dominated by a certain sex, where the majority of workers are one sex and they make comments and create an unsafe workspace for the worker in the minority or of the less prevalent, opposite sex.
Saying someone is sexually harassing you because they say say no to your advances after they flirt with you is ridiculous. No one has obligation to say yes even if they are flirting. That sort of thing is subjective. what you might see as flirting, someone else may see as being friendly.

Very much appreciate everyone's comments. Thank you Sarah!

The women I'm sexually attracted to have no business being my friends, and if they are co-workers, they better behave in a professional way or I'm definitely asking them out on the spot! Lol. If one of these co-workers would tell me "I'm playing (a sport) after work...all by myself ...doing anything tonight?" To me that means "I'm asking for your company because I'm single, I like you and want to date you".

I honestly don't know what it's like to have a hot woman I'm sexually attracted to as my best friend, I have no clue. I have no friends like that lol. If she's hot she's either with me or she's without me. All my female friends are women I'm not particularly attracted to, but I do enjoy talking to them and we have points in common but that's it.

That's because I feel uncomfortable being around women for which I may have feelings, without disclosing these feelings to them when they act flirtatious towards me. You see what I mean? It's a stressor because, if she's sending me clear signals, like the one I phrased above, that she wants to date me, I'll go for it because I like her and want to get to know her better.

Also with the gift and sex and so on, guys, you haven't seen me in real life but I don't pay for sex lol. That was because I was out of the country and it was a unique occasion to get something from abroad. It was polite to ask since I knew her, had seen her many times.

Greyhound1
04-27-17, 01:26 AM
The women I'm sexually attracted to have no business being my friends,

I honestly don't know what it's like to have a hot woman I'm sexually attracted to as my best friend, I have no clue. I have no friends like that lol.

This is where you are going wrong. Why would a woman you're attracted to have no business being your friend? If you ever want a happy long term relationship being best friends is critical.

I started dating my wife because she was beautiful, intelligent and had a great personality. The longer we have been together the better friends we have become. After 3 years of dating we realized we were best friends and always wanted to be together so we soon got married.

We have been married for over 17 years now and we get closer everyday. Now, you know someone who married their best friend and is still a hot woman & I am still attracted to her.

A relationship without friendship isn't a real relationship, it's just convenience.

dvdnvwls
04-27-17, 02:47 AM
I get the concept of being attracted to someone who you think is "too good for you" or something.

Unfortunately, when a guy thinks a girl is "too good for him", I think it's too often just his excuse for deciding to remain "bad" instead of being himself. A desire to maintain a false image of power.

Postulate
04-27-17, 09:05 AM
This is where you are going wrong. Why would a woman you're attracted to have no business being your friend? If you ever want a happy long term relationship being best friends is critical.

I started dating my wife because she was beautiful, intelligent and had a great personality. The longer we have been together the better friends we have become. After 3 years of dating we realized we were best friends and always wanted to be together so we soon got married.

We have been married for over 17 years now and we get closer everyday. Now, you know someone who married their best friend and is still a hot woman & I am still attracted to her.

A relationship without friendship isn't a real relationship, it's just convenience.

Well Grey...go back to the definition of a friend, what's a friend? It's 2 persons who can converge to mutual interest and benefit from eachother. Now, if the ONE thing I ask of her, she cannot give, what's the point to ask for a second? What would this friendship even be based on?

I'm glad that it worked out with your wife, you're a good example in this community.

aeon
04-27-17, 09:56 AM
This is where you are going wrong. Why would a woman you're attracted to have no business being your friend? If you ever want a happy long term relationship being best friends is critical.

I started dating my wife because she was beautiful, intelligent and had a great personality. The longer we have been together the better friends we have become. After 3 years of dating we realized we were best friends and always wanted to be together so we soon got married.

We have been married for over 17 years now and we get closer everyday. Now, you know someone who married their best friend and is still a hot woman & I am still attracted to her.

A relationship without friendship isn't a real relationship, it's just convenience.

:yes:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Greyhound1 again.

Go suck it, Forum! http://www.sympato.ch/smileys/Grrr.gif


Best To You,
Ian

Postulate
04-27-17, 09:59 AM
I get the concept of being attracted to someone who you think is "too good for you" or something.

Unfortunately, when a guy thinks a girl is "too good for him", I think it's too often just his excuse for deciding to remain "bad" instead of being himself. A desire to maintain a false image of power.

That's a very relative notion you play with, and that's being too good for another. Since I haven't yet found my soul mate, guess what: Over 50 women I met to whom I was sexually attracted to thought they were too good for me and that they could get better. And another 50 thought I was too good for them since I wasn't sexually attracted to them. At the end of the day, attraction is key and the concepts of good or bad are just interpolations around it.

Sure that's 50 extra women I could be friends with, but once they refused my advances, what position would I be in as their so called friend, if they can get what they want from me and I cannot get what I want from them? Not only it would be a bad friendship but it would also place me in a position of inferiority, not to mention that every common ground I may find will always be interpreted by the other party as a made up artifact to get into their pants.

EuropeanADHD
04-27-17, 01:55 PM
Over 50 women I met to whom I was sexually attracted to thought they were too good for me and that they could get better. And another 50 thought I was too good for them since I wasn't sexually attracted to them. At the end of the day, attraction is key and the concepts of good or bad are just interpolations around it.

I get the impression you're simply incredibly fixed on sexuality. At least for me that's something totally off-putting when I meet a man.

Maybe you shouldn't analyse every woman you meet in these categories - as "those interested in you sexually" and "those you find sexually attracted to".

Sexuality is only one aspect in life, you know.

Postulate
04-27-17, 01:58 PM
I was hoping to get some female feedback on why a woman would flirt and send sexual signals to an average dude that doesn't interest her from any point of view, sexually, financially, etc. It would be nice if we could explore some motives behind that.

I personally find it very insulting and diminuishing, because it tells me that she isn't looking at me as a potential sexual partner to any woman, so she does not expect for anything to come out of her flirting. So when a woman places me in this "safe to practice" territory I lose all respect for her and once lost it's nearly impossible for her to regain it. So this is a problen in a work setting.

Postulate
04-27-17, 02:13 PM
I get the impression you're simply incredibly fixed on sexuality. At least for me that's something totally off-putting when I meet a man.

Maybe you shouldn't analyse every woman you meet in these categories - as "those interested in you sexually" and "those you find sexually attracted to".

Sexuality is only one aspect in life, you know.

If that is so why are they refusing the dates, a date is an opportunity to get to know eachother, so if she's so hungry to get to know me at the cafeteria why say no to a date? I'm not even talking to them about sex, they are!! So it's like I was saying before, is it a lack of self awareness that they're seating next to a 200lb man talking funny and not realizing I might ask them out or are they trying to sell my virility short?

midnightstar
04-27-17, 02:26 PM
If that is so why are they refusing the dates, a date is an opportunity to get to know eachother, so if she's so hungry to get to know me at the cafeteria why say no to a date? I'm not even talking to them about sex, they are!! So it's like I was saying before, is it a lack of self awareness that they're seating next to a 200lb man talking funny and not realizing I might ask them out or are they trying to sell my virility short?

Could they just think they're being friendly and don't realise you're reading them a different way to what they mean?

EuropeanADHD
04-27-17, 02:57 PM
Could they just think they're being friendly and don't realise you're reading them a different way to what they mean?

Or they just don't like you.

That's more probable than them not being attracted to you sexually IMHO. Maybe you're behaving in a way that makes you unacceptable for them.

Or maybe there's a huge status/ personality/ lifestyle disparity between you and them, which makes them think you're not an option. I used to meet guys via app after graduating. I didn't have a job then, was searching intensively for a new one. It was shocking for me for how many guys my unemployment was a problem.

aeon
04-27-17, 03:23 PM
So it's like I was saying before, is it a lack of self awareness that they're seating next to a 200lb man talking funny and not realizing I might ask them out or are they trying to sell my virility short?

No, it’s the combination of intuition, people skills, spidey-sense, well-honed defender instinct, experience, and awareness of the animal self that leads to a “sense of smell,” and perhaps something smacks of “don’t go there” to their “nose.”

So many women have written about how from the time they are pubescent they are looked upon as objects of desire by men with the eyes of wolves.

They know that look, and they know it is a danger to them. As well it should be—no woman is an object, or means to an end—and to be regarded as such, even at a distance, is a disrespect.


Cheers,
Ian

Postulate
04-27-17, 05:44 PM
No, it’s the combination of intuition, people skills, spidey-sense, well-honed defender instinct, experience, and awareness of the animal self that leads to a “sense of smell,” and perhaps something smacks of “don’t go there” to their “nose.”

So many women have written about how from the time they are pubescent they are looked upon as objects of desire by men with the eyes of wolves.

They know that look, and they know it is a danger to them. As well it should be—no woman is an object, or means to an end—and to be regarded as such, even at a distance, is a disrespect.


Cheers,
Ian

If they sense danger why aren't they behaving conservative rather than in an obviously provocative way, it doesn't add up.

Also, women with a severe sexual deficiency will find bliss in a relationship with a man that's impotent or seriously lacking virility. I am happy for them until they start formulating rethorics similar to the one you just put forth. I know it doesn't come from you so someone must have told you that. They sold you a nice salad with some broccoli on top.

If a man does not look at his partner with the eyes of desire, he has a medical problem. He should see a doctor.

Or they just don't like you.

That's more probable than them not being attracted to you sexually IMHO. Maybe you're behaving in a way that makes you unacceptable for them.

Or maybe there's a huge status/ personality/ lifestyle disparity between you and them, which makes them think you're not an option. I used to meet guys via app after graduating. I didn't have a job then, was searching intensively for a new one. It was shocking for me for how many guys my unemployment was a problem.

This still isn't answering the question, if they don't like me, why are they all over me and engaging me in a flirtatious way? I'm polite, assertive, compassionate with women I'm not interested in, but I don't flirt with them also! Because I don't want to hurt her feelings or be embarassed, having to decline a date! What would be the point? Like, do you guys understand what I'm asking?

Postulate
04-27-17, 06:25 PM
Could they just think they're being friendly and don't realise you're reading them a different way to what they mean?

None of the women I flirt with suffer of severe intellectual deficiency, I usually pay close attention if they're sharp or not, so no. If we're talking about IQ's below 70, sure, it might happen that she can make sexual comments like "I feel lonely, doing anything tonight?" and when I ask her out it finally hits her, like "oh God! I was sitting next to a 200lb single man saying I feel lonely and asking for his company, what's wrong with me?!"

So, in theory yes it's possible but I don't expose myself to women like that. They're sharp and know what's up.

Greyhound1
04-27-17, 07:35 PM
Well Grey...go back to the definition of a friend, what's a friend? It's 2 persons who can converge to mutual interest and benefit from eachother. Now, if the ONE thing I ask of her, she cannot give, what's the point to ask for a second? What would this friendship even be based on?

I'm glad that it worked out with your wife, you're a good example in this community.
Thank you for calling me a good example. Not used to that.:) Normally, I was always the bad example. My marriage is about the only major thing I have ever really done right.


I am sorry if you already mentioned this and I missed it but what's the reference to your quote "the ONE thing I ask of her, she cannot give" as mentioned above?

I am confused.

Greyhound1
04-27-17, 07:54 PM
If they sense danger why aren't they behaving conservative rather than in an obviously provocative way, it doesn't add up.

Also, women with a severe sexual deficiency will find bliss in a relationship with a man that's impotent or seriously lacking virility. I am happy for them until they start formulating rethorics similar to the one you just put forth. I know it doesn't come from you so someone must have told you that. They sold you a nice salad with some broccoli on top.

If a man does not look at his partner with the eyes of desire, he has a medical problem. He should see a doctor.



This still isn't answering the question, if they don't like me, why are they all over me and engaging me in a flirtatious way? I'm polite, assertive, compassionate with women I'm not interested in, but I don't flirt with them also! Because I don't want to hurt her feelings or be embarassed, having to decline a date! What would be the point? Like, do you guys understand what I'm asking?

I think the answer is that some people flirt just to feed their ego or self esteem. Both men and women. It's a ego power play to see if they are still desirable. They may have no interest in you or me but by being receptive to their flirting it's an attempt to stroke their ego, boost their self esteem/confidence. A game.

Some people just like to play games is my best guess to your question.

Postulate
04-27-17, 08:25 PM
Thank you for calling me a good example. Not used to that.:) Normally, I was always the bad example. My marriage is about the only major thing I have ever really done right.


I am sorry if you already mentioned this and I missed it but what's the reference to your quote "the ONE thing I ask of her, she cannot give" as mentioned above?

I am confused.

Don't sell yourself short there Grey haha!

What I mean by that is love, itself broken into sex, affection and care resulting from good intentions towards each other.

The rest of it, such as matching personalities, same hobbies, common interest, sense of humor, tastes in music etc. are just symptoms of 2 humans co-existing. Those aren't bound to couples, they also seen in army dorm rooms, locker rooms, the boys get along with each other really well, they find each-other funny, they laugh at each-other's jokes, they enjoy being with each-other, but they don't sleep together because of that also!

The way I see it, sex, affection and care are the 3 components of love that distinguish a romantic relationship where I am in love with a woman, from me and Max going for a beer or have a chill together. Sure, couples can also enjoy same hobbies or each-other's sense of humor, but that's just a symptom of two humans being together. Nothing more, it has nothing to do with love that you find the other person funny. See what I mean?

To me, a woman who posts on Tinder:

"I want a guy that's funny, surprises me, makes me laugh, gets along with my friends, is social and has good taste in music."

To me it means:

"Sex is not my thing so don't ask for it and I'm not too affectionate either so don't expect me to touch you on the shoulder or prepare your meal. And when I have a child, I won't be affectionate towards my child either. Affection is just not my thing and when you have a problem at work, I don't wana know about it because that's not funny...remember...you have to make me laugh. Problems don't make anyone laugh. Hello? Doh!"

Postulate
04-27-17, 08:55 PM
I think the answer is that some people flirt just to feed their ego or self esteem. Both men and women. It's a ego power play to see if they are still desirable. They may have no interest in you or me but by being receptive to their flirting it's an attempt to stroke their ego, boost their self esteem/confidence. A game.

Some people just like to play games is my best guess to your question.

Very interesting. I have noticed something very similar, that, both some men and some women, smile all the time, in order to hide the fact that they are very mean, in every way, jealous, envious, vengeful, you name it, they have it, and so they smile. Big smile, so you say, look at that pretty face, always smiling, how lovely! All smile, blush and pink cotton candy! And then you curse your luck for having met the person. Lol :lol:

I still can't believe how naive I am. You mean they could use me, as an object, in order to verify that they are still desirable? So they go like "let's see if he's gona ask me out. Ok. He asked me out, I'm still good! Yes! One more trophy added to the list!" Wasn't Aeon who was talking about objects earlier?

Aeon! Look! I'm being used as an object for a woman building her self-image! I protest! :lol:

Any other protesters around?

Greyhound1
04-27-17, 08:58 PM
Don't sell yourself short there Grey haha!

What I mean by that is love, itself broken into sex, affection and care resulting from good intentions towards each other.
I think you have greatly simplified love. It's soooo much more! It's also about being life partners, companionship, faithfulness, trust/honesty and a real friend you can confide in. Someone who shares all your concerns and worries and wants only the best for you and you for them. Someone you would sacrifice your life for to save them. The list goes on and on.

The rest of it, such as matching personalities, same hobbies, common interest, sense of humor, tastes in music etc. are just symptoms of 2 humans co-existing. Those aren't bound to couples, they also seen in army dorm rooms, locker rooms, the boys get along with each other really well, they find each-other funny, they laugh at each-other's jokes, they enjoy being with each-other, but they don't sleep together because of that also!
My wife and I don't have that many hobbies in common. We just really enjoy each other's company and usually would rather spend our time together doing something we both enjoy.


To me, a woman who posts on Tinder:

"I want a guy that's funny, surprises me, makes me laugh, gets along with my friends, is social and has good taste in music."

To me it means:

"Sex is not my thing so don't ask for it and I'm not too affectionate either so don't expect me to touch you on the shoulder or prepare your meal. And when I have a child, I won't be affectionate towards my child either. Affection is just not my thing and when you have a problem at work, I don't wana know about it because that's not funny...remember...you have to make me laugh. Problems don't make anyone laugh. Hello? Doh!"

I don't think you are giving anyone a chance. You jumped to so many conclusions from a simple tinder post. She only mentioned traits she prefers and you have totally written her off as dysfunctional and super needy. I don't think it's fair or accurate way to determine anything really about this person.

Postulate
04-27-17, 09:01 PM
I honestly thought that they either were practicing their seduction skills, or were just mean, had noticed my attention and wanted to hurt my feelings. But Grey had an interesting theory, so they are trying to verify that a man will still want to date them.

Unbelievable. Good post Grey!

Postulate
04-27-17, 09:09 PM
I think you have greatly simplified love. It's soooo much more! It's also about being life partners, companionship, faithfulness, trust/honesty and a real friend you can confide in. Someone who shares all your concerns and worries and wants only the best for you and you for them. Someone you would sacrifice your life for to save them. The list goes on and on.

= care

I did not simplify, I simply didn't expand the concept of care, you did, fairly well too!

Greyhound1
04-27-17, 09:13 PM
I still can't believe how naive I am. You mean they could use me, as an object, in order to verify that they are still desirable? So they go like "let's see if he's gona ask me out. Ok. He asked me out, I'm still good! Yes! One more trophy added to the list!" Wasn't Aeon who was talking about objects earlier?

Aeon! Look! I'm being used as an object for a woman building her self-image! I protest! :lol:

Any other protesters around?

That's my take on it for sure. Everyone likes compliments and wants to feel desired. Needy people may unfortunately mess with your emotions flirting for their own personal validations.

Greyhound1
04-27-17, 09:26 PM
= care

I did not simplify, I simply didn't expand the concept of care, you did, fairly well too!

I think in order to achieve that level of emotional care for someone it has to be based on a great relationship. I know, I am very lucky but I just don't see how a couple can have a great relationship without it blossoming into being great or best friends first.

How can you really care for or love someone you wouldn't or couldn't consider a great friend? That's where I am confused.

Postulate
04-27-17, 09:42 PM
I think in order to achieve that level of emotional care for someone it has to be based a great relationship. I know, I am very lucky but I just don't see how a couple can have a great relationship without it blossoming into being great or best friends first.

How can you really care for or love someone you wouldn't or couldn't consider a great friend? That's where I am confused.

Well, friendship is a fishy ordeal, meant to be thought of carefully. You don't wana paint love in such a mediocre dye in my opinion. You see, when I bought a $50,000 car I lost half my friends and when I would fail an exam in University, everybody was my friend and they showed a lot of compassion, yes.

You see what I mean, so we'll leave friendship alone when speaking of love. I think what happened with you two is that you were already lovers without knowing it for a while and you mistook that for friendship. Half your friends will stab you in the back so lol.

Greyhound1
04-27-17, 10:12 PM
Well, friendship is a fishy ordeal, meant to be thought of carefully. You don't wana paint love in such a mediocre dye in my opinion. You see, when I bought a $50,000 car I lost half my friends and when I would fail an exam in University, everybody was my friend and they showed a lot of compassion, yes.

You see what I mean, so we'll leave friendship alone when speaking of love. I think what happened with you two is that you were already lovers without knowing it for a while and you mistook that for friendship. Half your friends will stab you in the back so lol.

I totally disagree. I think you may be mistaking acquaintances for real friends. A real friend won't stab you in the back. They will stick with you through thick and thin and always have your back. If they don't they were never a real friend to begin with.

My mother always said you will make many great acquaintances in your life but you will be lucky to make just one true friend. There is a ton of truth to that.

When you develop a deep meaningful friendship with someone it becomes a type of love and a bond you share. Being best friends obviously isn't enough to maintain a romantic relationship. It just enhances love and the romantic relationship.

Spending time in a relationship with someone you feel you can't trust to be your friend seems painful and pointless to me.

ToneTone
04-28-17, 12:19 AM
Seems like you're feeling frustrated in deciphering the whole male-female, attraction/seduction/dating dance. Seems like you're feeling that women send you all kinds of mixed and confusing signals ... and you sense there is a gap between what signals you're picking up and the behavior of the people sending the signals--in this case the women you are meeting.

I admit: for much of my life I was comically terrible at reading dating and romance cues. I could have a woman falling all over me and I would be completely oblivious to her interest. On the other hand, I asked out women who had showed exactly no interest in me. None.

"I'm playing (a sport) after work...all by myself ...doing anything tonight?" To me that means "I'm asking for your company because I'm single, I like you and want to date you."

Ok, here is the problem. I don't see any flirting here. Sorry--just do not see it. She was simply asking if you wanted to hang out. That's it. She could have invited a woman colleague out on a different night, using the exact same language. Single people are often looking to spend time with others ...

Here's what I hear in those words: You're a coworker. I'm not doing anything with anyone tonight. I like being social. You don't seem to be an ax-murderer. You might be interesting to get to know a little more. You wanna hang out?

People ask friends to hang out all the time ... men can ask other men ... women go out with other women ... and these days men and women can go out for dinner, lunch--walks--and have nothing romantic going on.

I am close to a number of my women colleagues, including several who are married. When I don't see them for a while, if we run into each other, one might say to me, "you got time for coffee?" ... Means absolutely nothing other than that we have a friendship and this friend enjoys catching up with me over coffee. That's it.

People can want to hang out with other people in a less structured way ... and it does not at all mean they want romance or sex.

Tone

dvdnvwls
04-28-17, 02:05 AM
A woman is a woman, but two women is a culture. :)

When a woman is out with her friends, she is there as herself, but also as a member of a group - a group that has shared expectations, and a shared sense of what's good and what's normal.

If you as an outsider try to enter that group, you are playing by their rules whether you like it or not. If you happen to not share their expectations or their sense of right and normal, you are very likely to be rejected.

But this is not a surprise - when you go somewhere with a group of your friends, you do the same. (Though some men are a bit less focused on their group than some women are).

Postulate
04-28-17, 08:32 AM
Seems like you're feeling frustrated in deciphering the whole male-female, attraction/seduction/dating dance. Seems like you're feeling that women send you all kinds of mixed and confusing signals ... and you sense there is a gap between what signals you're picking up and the behavior of the people sending the signals--in this case the women you are meeting.

I admit: for much of my life I was comically terrible at reading dating and romance cues. I could have a woman falling all over me and I would be completely oblivious to her interest. On the other hand, I asked out women who had showed exactly no interest in me. None.

If you gave an acting assignment to an actress to seduce a man, Julia Roberts couldn't do better. One woman even asked me if I'm bothered by her feet, and that she had done her pedicure recently, then started getting her feet up in the air, only to tell me that she has unfinished business with her ex and doesn't date anyone. So I appreciate your input but it's not the case, I'm not misreading those cues.

Oh, I have unfinished business with my ex so that would be unfair to you. I'm like, wow, where does she learn to talk like that. She must be doing that all day long.

aeon
04-28-17, 10:24 AM
If they sense danger why aren't they behaving conservative rather than in an obviously provocative way, it doesn't add up.

It never does add up when projecting onto, or judging, another person.

Each and every woman will do as she will, but you are the one placing the value judgments of “conservative” and “obviously provocative” on them. That’s all about you, and is yours to own, and has nothing to do with the women so judged. If something doesn’t add up, it is because your internal model of values don’t fit, reflect, or describe the real world.

Also, women with a severe sexual deficiency will find bliss in a relationship with a man that's impotent or seriously lacking virility.

Surely you know describing women as some homogenized cohort is tantamount to purposely playing the fool.

I am happy for them until they start formulating rethorics similar to the one you just put forth. I know it doesn't come from you so someone must have told you that. They sold you a nice salad with some broccoli on top.

Setting aside the anecdotes of family, friends, and lovers, I know the number of sources is varied and long, but for sure, one of the first was Shere Hite’s The Hite Report: A National Study of Female Sexuality. That book changed my life, tender age that I was.

If a man does not look at his partner with the eyes of desire, he has a medical problem. He should see a doctor.

if-then-else logics are both too facile and too inflexible to be an aid in the consideration of behavior, male or otherwise.

And just as with the women above, men are no singular entity that can be captured, described, or judged in any substantive way.

This still isn't answering the question, if they don't like me, why are they all over me and engaging me in a flirtatious way? I'm polite, assertive, compassionate with women I'm not interested in, but I don't flirt with them also! Because I don't want to hurt her feelings or be embarassed, having to decline a date! What would be the point? Like, do you guys understand what I'm asking?

Different women will have different reasons.

In a given situation, if you really want to know, ask...it’s as simple as that.

As to declining an invitation to a date, why would there be reason to be embarassed? Also, if you are both kind and honest about it, the likelihood of hurt feelings is less, and regardless, if they occur, they are hers to own and take responsibility for.

I still can't believe how naive I am.

I still can’t believe it either, so we are in each other’s company.

You mean they could use me, as an object, in order to verify that they are still desirable? So they go like "let's see if he's gona ask me out. Ok. He asked me out, I'm still good! Yes! One more trophy added to the list!" Wasn't Aeon who was talking about objects earlier?

Some people do that, yes, and some people treat others as abstractions from the idea:

women are sex objects
men are success objects

Aeon! Look! I'm being used as an object for a woman building her self-image! I protest! :lol:

It works both ways, and in either case, it is a disrespect.


Cheers,
Ian

Postulate
04-28-17, 11:31 AM
It never does add up when projecting onto, or judging, another person.

Each and every woman will do as she will, but you are the one placing the value judgments of “conservative” and “obviously provocative” on them. That’s all about you, and is yours to own, and has nothing to do with the women so judged. If something doesn’t add up, it is because your internal model of values don’t fit, reflect, or describe the real world.

So you're saying that one should not have any values in life, because there will always be people behaving outside the boundaries of these values, rendering them invalid? So if I meet a woman who neglects her hygene, smells bad, wears dirty clothes and has an inch of dirt on the soles of her feet, since that doesn't add up it means my internal model of values doesn't fit to describe reality?

I think it's her that neglects herself and has mental problems, not me!

if-then-else logics are both too facile and too inflexible to be an aid in the consideration of behavior, male or otherwise.

And just as with the women above, men are no singular entity that can be captured, described, or judged in any substantive way.

Artifices aside, if a man feels nothing when looking at the body of a hot woman he's attracted to, he has a medical problem. The doctor should check his testicles because he might have testicular cancer, or another problem preventing testosterone from being produced and released inside the body. There is no debate about this. Looking at a woman with the eyes of desire is a symptom of testosterone being present inside the male body.

This has nothing to do with self-control. If a man has no self-control then yes, she should run. But if he has self-control, while erect, where is the problem? I feel like your rhetoric is attempting to punish men for being men, that's why I said earlier that this cannot come from you. It is a fiction, you read that somewhere, and the author did not have any intent to benefit the community or be truthful in any way, only to fulfil a personal want.

I agree with everything else you said :)

sarahsweets
04-28-17, 11:41 AM
I honestly thought that they either were practicing their seduction skills, or were just mean, had noticed my attention and wanted to hurt my feelings. But Grey had an interesting theory, so they are trying to verify that a man will still want to date them.

Unbelievable. Good post Grey!

I find it hard to believe that they were trying to verify if a man will date them. Most women do not think this way. We dont walk around looking for viable mates, we just live life.

sarahsweets
04-28-17, 11:47 AM
Well, friendship is a fishy ordeal, meant to be thought of carefully. You don't wana paint love in such a mediocre dye in my opinion. You see, when I bought a $50,000 car I lost half my friends and when I would fail an exam in University, everybody was my friend and they showed a lot of compassion, yes.

You see what I mean, so we'll leave friendship alone when speaking of love. I think what happened with you two is that you were already lovers without knowing it for a while and you mistook that for friendship. Half your friends will stab you in the back so lol.

Met my quiet husband when I was 18 and a freshman in college. I didnt start hanging out with him until december. The first time I went to his room looking for a friend we chatted for awhile and when I left I heard a voice " you are going to marry this man". it sounds hokey, unbelievable and not at all like me. I pursued him as a friend because he was very quiet. By that April we were dating, by that October we were engaged and by the following september we were married. We basically became best friends. I dont recall a rush to get intimate physically because i was too busy being stimulated by his mind to care. When it happened it was lovely and natural but I would take a friendship over sex any day. If we could never have sex again I could still be happy.
We fit like legos. I will take 15 minutes of spectacular over a lifetime of nothing special any day.

sarahsweets
04-28-17, 11:59 AM
So you're saying that one should not have any values in life, because there will always be people behaving outside the boundaries of these values, rendering them invalid? So if I meet a woman who neglects her hygene, smells bad, wears dirty clothes and has an inch of dirt on the soles of her feet, since that doesn't add up it means my internal model of values doesn't fit to describe reality?
You can describe reality without judging someone for it.


I think it's her that neglects herself and has mental problems, not me!

That may be true, and how sad for her if it is.



Artifices aside, if a man feels nothing when looking at the body of a hot woman he's attracted to, he has a medical problem. The doctor should check his testicles because he might have testicular cancer, or another problem preventing testosterone from being produced and released inside the body. There is no debate about this. Looking at a woman with the eyes of desire is a symptom of testosterone being present inside the male body.

You can adore a woman, become taken with her, appreciate her, admire her, respect her, want to spend time with her, engage with her and respect her without physically desiring her body. There is nothing wrong with you if you know she is attractive and you do not desire her. Testosterone isnt some blanket excuse for men.Sure all men have testosterone, and not all men view beautiful women as sexual objects or entertain the idea of sleeping with them. The ability to appreciate beauty without expecting a physical payday is the truest form of flattery.

This has nothing to do with self-control. If a man has no self-control then yes, she should run. But if he has self-control, while erect, where is the problem? I feel like your rhetoric is attempting to punish men for being men, that's why I said earlier that this cannot come from you. It is a fiction, you read that somewhere, and the author did not have any intent to benefit the community or be truthful in any way, only to fulfil a personal want.

I agree with everything else you said :)

Way to go telling AEON what he read and believes is fiction. If you have read anything to support your statements do share. Fiction goes both ways.

Postulate
04-28-17, 12:45 PM
You can adore a woman, become taken with her, appreciate her, admire her, respect her, want to spend time with her, engage with her and respect her without physically desiring her body. There is nothing wrong with you if you know she is attractive and you do not desire her. Testosterone isnt some blanket excuse for men.Sure all men have testosterone, and not all men view beautiful women as sexual objects or entertain the idea of sleeping with them. The ability to appreciate beauty without expecting a physical payday is the truest form of flattery.

The fact that both men and women become sexual objects during sex does not mean they see each other as sexual objects outside of sex. If outside of sex your husband would look at you only in terms of when he'll do you next, then yes, I agree with you that it would be a toxic relationship. I have never met a man like that. I have met however, women who were extremely reluctant to be touched or have sex, but they had a problem, like incest or psychological incest dating all the way back from childhood. So that's also dysfunctional. See, only sex is dysfunctional, no sex is also dysfunctional. Hope I clarified the point :)

Now, scientifically speaking, women, as men, are objects because they have a mass, a density, and each human generates over 40,000 kJ/Kg of heat when burned. So we have to be objects. There's no debate about that. Now, you can say, we are love, we are spirit, we are compassion, we are electromagnetic waves, whatever crosses your mind but at the end of day science says we are objects. When you bump into somebody on the street you feel the force of the impact. You don't feel the spirit.

midnightstar
04-28-17, 03:52 PM
So you're saying that one should not have any values in life, because there will always be people behaving outside the boundaries of these values, rendering them invalid? So if I meet a woman who neglects her hygene, smells bad, wears dirty clothes and has an inch of dirt on the soles of her feet, since that doesn't add up it means my internal model of values doesn't fit to describe reality?

I think it's her that neglects herself and has mental problems, not me!

It goes two ways, yes someone of either gender who neglects themselves might have mental health problems or they may just have come off duty from a manual job. I know from my job that not everybody likes the smell of chemicals, are you saying that just because someone is wearing "dirty clothes" and "smells bad" that they are neglecting themselves due to mental health problems?

Postulate
04-28-17, 04:34 PM
It goes two ways, yes someone of either gender who neglects themselves might have mental health problems or they may just have come off duty from a manual job. I know from my job that not everybody likes the smell of chemicals, are you saying that just because someone is wearing "dirty clothes" and "smells bad" that they are neglecting themselves due to mental health problems?

I don't know, I don't like what I hear from the western culture. I may have to look to places like Asia for a wife. Who knows? When I hear things like, having sex turns women into objects or expressions like "physical payday", I know I wouldn't wanna hear that nonsense in my house.

I'm very disappointed so far. I refused to believe that things were this bad but I keep getting more and more clues that things are even worse than what I thought they were. I don't know if it's the SSRI medication, the lack of urbanism or whatever factors trigger this problem but I'm not happy with what I hear especially from you ladies.

Fuzzy12
04-28-17, 04:54 PM
I think it's not that complicated. Stop assuming. Anything.

If you want to date a woman, ask her on a date and if she says yes it means she wants to date you.

If a woman says she wants to have sex with you then she wants to have sex with you. If you ask a woman if she wants to have sex with you and she says yes then she wants to have sex with you.

In any other situation you just can't assume anything. Forget about signals and signs and flirtations and games. They are too arbitrary, individual and diverse to play by them. Just tell a woman honestly what you want and more likely than not you will get an honest reply in return.

Postulate
04-28-17, 05:11 PM
I think it's not that complicated. Stop assuming. Anything.

If you want to date a woman, ask her on a date and if she says yes it means she wants to date you.

If a woman says she wants to have sex with you then she wants to have sex with you. If you ask a woman if she wants to have sex with you and she says yes then she wants to have sex with you.

In any other situation you just can't assume anything. Forget about signals and signs and flirtations and games. They are too arbitrary, individual and diverse to play by them. Just tell a woman honestly what you want and more likely than not you will get an honest reply in return.

Well, I've gotten a few honest replies in here as well haven't you noticed.

I'm not into chastity play. I don't observe beauty from far away. I value affection. I can't believe what I'm reading out here. If that's how most women think, then there is no hope.

I don't intend to disrespect any woman in my relationship with her but I'm not down to being anyone's mockery or laboratory test subject. I refuse to take part in this experimentation, whatever it is.

ToneTone
04-28-17, 06:36 PM
Very interesting ...

You don't accept any of the wisdom people have offered here.

So I really encourage you to approach one of the women you think is flirting inappropriately ... or just a woman you feel comfortable talking to ... and ask her about how you can tell if someone is attracted to you, how to tell if someone is romantically interested in you.

You can run the scenarios you present here--none of which I find to be come-ons--with these people.

But it seems as if you don't really trust women. So perhaps a good move would be to find a socially confident guy who dates a lot and ask him how he knows a woman is interested ... There is a lot of subtle body language and posture and facial expression and pauses ... and a lot of subtle exchange of energy ... that goes on when two people are eyeing each other for romance or sex. Showing a pedicure ain't it.

Tone

Postulate
04-28-17, 06:42 PM
Very interesting ...

You don't accept any of the wisdom people have offered here.

So I really encourage you to approach one of the women you think is flirting inappropriately ... or just a woman you feel comfortable talking to ... and ask her about how you can tell if someone is attracted to you, how to tell if someone is romantically interested in you.

You can run the scenarios you present here--none of which I find to be come-ons--with these people.

But it seems as if you don't really trust women. So perhaps a good move would be to find a socially confident guy who dates a lot and ask him how he knows a woman is interested ... There is a lot of subtle body language and posture and facial expression and pauses ... and a lot of subtle exchange of energy ... that goes on when two people are eyeing each other for romance or sex. Showing a pedicure ain't it.

Tone

Well I accept most of it, I surely don't reject all of it, but, it's how Aeon adequately put it, my spider sense is acting up and when I smell the whole thing, it ain't Fragonard!

dvdnvwls
04-28-17, 07:02 PM
Well, I've gotten a few honest replies in here as well haven't you noticed.

I'm not into chastity play. I don't observe beauty from far away. I value affection. I can't believe what I'm reading out here. If that's how most women think, then there is no hope.

I don't intend to disrespect any woman in my relationship with her but I'm not down to being anyone's mockery or laboratory test subject. I refuse to take part in this experimentation, whatever it is.
The "no hope" you've referred to is only no hope for you, and only with your current set of assumptions. You can ( a ) make large changes in your assumptions, or ( b ) recognize that only other people will get what they want and not you.

It doesn't matter where people are from. Asian women don't want a guy with wrong assumptions either.

Fuzzy12
04-28-17, 07:16 PM
Well, I've gotten a few honest replies in here as well haven't you noticed.

I'm not into chastity play. I don't observe beauty from far away. I value affection. I can't believe what I'm reading out here. If that's how most women think, then there is no hope.

I don't intend to disrespect any woman in my relationship with her but I'm not down to being anyone's mockery or laboratory test subject. I refuse to take part in this experimentation, whatever it is.
I'm sorry but I don't understand how your reply is related to what I wrote.:scratch:

Johnny Slick
04-28-17, 07:22 PM
I don't know, I don't like what I hear from the western culture. I may have to look to places like Asia for a wife.Oh sweet Mary, mother of Jesus... as a man who enjoys women of all colors, can I just say one thing in response here?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOO

also

OH GOD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO

It's stuff like this that is why, when a white guy like me starts chatting up a woman with Asian features, we have to get past the "yellow fever" question. These stereotypes you've heard about women in Asian cultures? They're *stereotypes*. They're not necessarily true and they're becoming even less true as the years go by. And even in the cultures where it's still sort of true, an awful lot of women come to the West to escape that. And on top of *that*, in a society that is that stratified for women, *men* are expected to do an awful lot of things as well... you seem to be against "playing games", as some people in my cohort like to call it. Well, I know that when the West was as stratified as you think Asia is, women kind of had to play all *kinds* of games, from the "pretend that I don't enjoy sex" game to the "all this faffing around had better lead up to something" game (which, by the way, thank *god* this stuff is mostly going by the wayside now), and it would not surprise me if there were similar "games" that women from these "Asian cultures" you desire feel that they have to play in order to weed out bad men.

The thing is, it doesn't really even sound like you actually *want* that stereotype, or else you do and you need to, like, seriously reconsider your priorities. Are you into the idea of a woman from "an Asian culture" because she's supposed to be more submissive and demure and won't, like, raise a fuss when you do something with her body that she doesn't really want you to do? Because that's how I'm reading this and if so, that's freaking horrible, man.

Postulate
04-28-17, 07:44 PM
The "no hope" you've referred to is only no hope for you, and only with your current set of assumptions. You can ( a ) make large changes in your assumptions, or ( b ) recognize that only other people will get what they want and not you.

It doesn't matter where people are from. Asian women don't want a guy with wrong assumptions either.

Wait, hold on a minute, there's a dude on the 5th floor of a condo that pays me rent every month, CCL Industries pays me dividends, Teck Ressources pays me dividends...even Boswana PULA is giving me capital gain...I just sit here, do f all, all day, go to the gym and argue with you and when I don't argue with you I drive my Acura to clubs and restaurants, and my Honda Fit 2007 when I go dating. Since when I'm not getting what I want? You're making a laughable argument. I'm just upset that I'm not getting everything. Do you get that? Everything. Every, thing.

I have to love birds singing in my house, female Kuku and male Kaki. What I'm saying is I don't want a third that sings rhetoric similar to what was posted in this topic. I'm not saying I'm right and you guys are wrong, I'm saying I don't like it. It gives me a gag reflex to know a woman considers that sex with me is my payday. It makes me vomit my lunch. How can I explain this to you any clearer?

Postulate
04-28-17, 07:53 PM
Oh sweet Mary, mother of Jesus... as a man who enjoys women of all colors, can I just say one thing in response here?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOO

also

OH GOD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO

It's stuff like this that is why, when a white guy like me starts chatting up a woman with Asian features, we have to get past the "yellow fever" question. These stereotypes you've heard about women in Asian cultures? They're *stereotypes*. They're not necessarily true and they're becoming even less true as the years go by. And even in the cultures where it's still sort of true, an awful lot of women come to the West to escape that. And on top of *that*, in a society that is that stratified for women, *men* are expected to do an awful lot of things as well... you seem to be against "playing games", as some people in my cohort like to call it. Well, I know that when the West was as stratified as you think Asia is, women kind of had to play all *kinds* of games, from the "pretend that I don't enjoy sex" game to the "all this faffing around had better lead up to something" game (which, by the way, thank *god* this stuff is mostly going by the wayside now), and it would not surprise me if there were similar "games" that women from these "Asian cultures" you desire feel that they have to play in order to weed out bad men.

The thing is, it doesn't really even sound like you actually *want* that stereotype, or else you do and you need to, like, seriously reconsider your priorities. Are you into the idea of a woman from "an Asian culture" because she's supposed to be more submissive and demure and won't, like, raise a fuss when you do something with her body that she doesn't really want you to do? Because that's how I'm reading this and if so, that's freaking horrible, man.

Hah! I appreciate your post, you're funny man! No that would be horrible indeed, I just want a woman that doesn't make me vomit my lunch. I drink my eggs before going to the gym, that's a fragile lunch right there ;)

Greyhound1
04-28-17, 08:56 PM
It gives me a gag reflex to know a woman considers that sex with me is my payday. It makes me vomit my lunch. How can I explain this to you any clearer?

I totally get what you are saying with this part. If the sex is out of pity, obligation or as you put it "my payday" that's a huge turn off for me.

I could never be with a woman that used sex to bargain or negotiate with. If she's not into it solely because she wants to be with me than I am not interested.

Don't give up on the women in your culture. You just need to be patient and find the right one. I promise you many of them are totally different than the stereotype you are placing on women in our culture.

Perhaps try meeting women through different methods other than how you have been. Obviously, you have been meeting em somewhere that has perpetuated your feelings of this stereotype. I would avoid trying places like bars, gyms and night clubs in less you are just looking for sex or to hook up.

Finding someone you will love having a relationship with is challenging for sure but getting to know the person first has to be the first step imo. Even the best sex in the world will eventually get old if you don't love spending time with that person.

sarahsweets
04-29-17, 05:34 AM
I don't know, I don't like what I hear from the western culture. I may have to look to places like Asia for a wife. Who knows? When I hear things like, having sex turns women into objects or expressions like "physical payday", I know I wouldn't wanna hear that nonsense in my house.

I'm very disappointed so far. I refused to believe that things were this bad but I keep getting more and more clues that things are even worse than what I thought they were. I don't know if it's the SSRI medication, the lack of urbanism or whatever factors trigger this problem but I'm not happy with what I hear especially from you ladies.

I dont think sex turns women into sexual objects, but evaluating women based on whether you think they would have sex with you, or if they are looking for sex kind of does. It leaves no rooms for the important stuff like friendship, trust and respect.
When you say "asian wife" what do you mean? It sounds like a generalization but maybe I am missing what you mean?
When you say you are not happy with what you hear from "you ladies" do you mean womem here on ADDF or just women in general?

Postulate
04-29-17, 01:33 PM
I dont think sex turns women into sexual objects, but evaluating women based on whether you think they would have sex with you, or if they are looking for sex kind of does. It leaves no rooms for the important stuff like friendship, trust and respect.
When you say "asian wife" what do you mean? It sounds like a generalization but maybe I am missing what you mean?
When you say you are not happy with what you hear from "you ladies" do you mean womem here on ADDF or just women in general?

Sarah, let's say for the sake of the argument, if we live under the same roof out of a normal day, how much time can I spend on having sex with you? Per day? 15 minutes? 30 minutes? I say, 30 minutes per day, for a weekly total of 3.5 hours/week. And that's the maximum I can ever think of in a case where you would ask for 10 hours a week, I would say sorry, I can only handle 3.5 hours. Even if I double on my medication to do 2 or 3 hours in a row, I have to give it a break for a day or two.

So we're left with how many hours/week to be friends, trust and respect each other? 30 hours? 40 hours? 50 hours? So where is the question that sex leaves no room for other things?

Unless those 30 minutes traumatise you to the point where you can no longer live your life and feel good about yourself. Then I will ask you, what do you want me to do differently, so that you can feel good. And if you say that what I have to do differently during sex is not have sex, then I don't wana know you. I don't wana know your name, your age, your worries, your problems. I really don't. I don't wana see you within my visual space.

I hope that clarified my perspective :)

dvdnvwls
04-29-17, 02:22 PM
If some woman considers sex as a commodity to exchange with you, then I don't agree with her and furthermore I think she's not very bright.

BUT... I really question how you think you found out her attitude on this, and I question your ability to do so based on what you've said in this thread. (Especially your ability to do so based on short encounters in public places.)

She would be wrong to act that way, but I just don't think you "get" her at all.

Or if you do, then please start hanging out somewhere where she would never go. :)

sarahsweets
04-29-17, 04:30 PM
Sarah, let's say for the sake of the argument, if we live under the same roof out of a normal day, how much time can I spend on having sex with you? Per day? 15 minutes? 30 minutes? I say, 30 minutes per day, for a weekly total of 3.5 hours/week. And that's the maximum I can ever think of in a case where you would ask for 10 hours a week, I would say sorry, I can only handle 3.5 hours. Even if I double on my medication to do 2 or 3 hours in a row, I have to give it a break for a day or two.
I dont understand how this relates to anything I said.


So we're left with how many hours/week to be friends, trust and respect each other? 30 hours? 40 hours? 50 hours? So where is the question that sex leaves no room for other things?

I never said sex leaves no room for other things. Treating women like sexual objects, evaluating them on a fantasy scale of whether or not you would have sex with them and pretending to know how they think or feel is what I meant.


Unless those 30 minutes traumatise you to the point where you can no longer live your life and feel good about yourself. Then I will ask you, what do you want me to do differently, so that you can feel good. And if you say that what I have to do differently during sex is not have sex, then I don't wana know you. I don't wana know your name, your age, your worries, your problems. I really don't. I don't wana see you within my visual space.

I hope that clarified my perspective :)

The above made no sense at all and seems to be more about titilating then actually discussing misguided theories.

Postulate
04-29-17, 05:50 PM
I never said sex leaves no room for other things. Treating women like sexual objects, evaluating them on a fantasy scale of whether or not you would have sex with them and pretending to know how they think or feel is what I meant.

You said it clearly, evaluating you based on sex, or, from a sexual perspective, leaves NO ROOM, for the important stuff like friendship, trust and respect.

In other words, you tell me that, if when I see you for the first time, I think you're a 9 out of 10 and I ask you on a date because I know that I would enjoy sex with you, there can't ever be friendship, mutual trust and mutual respect between us.

If so, I want you to explain to me, bearing in mind, my maximum 3.5 hours a week of sex that I can deliver, how come, with the remaining 40 or 50 hours per week, there is no room for building friendship, trust and respect? How? You got the math wrong! 50 hours minus 3.5 hours equals 46.5 hours!

Even though I disagree, I think that during sex it's the best time to earn trust, respect and friendship, but, for the sake of the argument, where is the problem? You have 46.5 hours left to do so. What is keeping you from doing it? If I prepare a nice breakfast the next morning, aren't you gona eat it? You're gona eat or not?

Greyhound1
04-29-17, 06:34 PM
I find it hard to believe that they were trying to verify if a man will date them. Most women do not think this way. We dont walk around looking for viable mates, we just live life.

I don't think most women intentionally try to verify if a man will date them or be a viable mate. I do think many women and men like to flirt for fun or for some type of validation from any reciprocation. I know people that play this game and have no desire or intentions of it ever going beyond just flirting. To them it's just harmless fun and most likely an ego or self esteem boost imo.

Unfortunately, this can easily send mixed messages and perhaps this has happened to Postulate was my point.

dvdnvwls
04-29-17, 08:23 PM
...I do think many women and men like to flirt for fun or for some type of validation from any reciprocation. I know people that play this game and have no desire or intentions of it ever going beyond just flirting. To them it's just harmless fun and most likely an ego or self esteem boost imo.

Unfortunately, this can easily send mixed messages and perhaps this has happened to Postulate was my point.
Yes, quite possible. I think people who have no actual interest in seeing anyone are the ones who would do this the most, or at least in the most obvious ways.

ADHD problem: We often don't get hints that are obvious to non-ADHD people. That could play a part here.

One of my own problems is that I think I'm getting the hints, when it's obvious to any observer that I'm not getting them at all. And I am absolutely convinced of my own false knowledge, until it's too late.

That experience of mine comes from general social situations; only two people have ever seen me in anything like flirt mode. :)

And the experience of observers knowing I'm not getting hints: it's obvious to my wife. My wife is autistic. Do I get social hints? You do the math. ;)

Postulate
04-29-17, 08:43 PM
Yes, quite possible. I think people who have no actual interest in seeing anyone are the ones who would do this the most, or at least in the most obvious ways.

ADHD problem: We often don't get hints that are obvious to non-ADHD people. That could play a part here.

One of my own problems is that I think I'm getting the hints, when it's obvious to any observer that I'm not getting them at all. And I am absolutely convinced of my own false knowledge, until it's too late.

That experience of mine comes from general social situations; only two people have ever seen me in anything like flirt mode. :)

And the experience of observers knowing I'm not getting hints: it's obvious to my wife. My wife is autistic. Do I get social hints? You do the math. ;)

Great posts guys yes, I started taking Dexedrine when I was 22, and now being 31, my head spins at how naive and ignorant I was at 22. For 22 years I noticed nothing. Not a f thing. So in the last 9 years it was a speed learning, speed maturing process, I'm saying, this amphetamine really works because I'm learning things at a quick rate and getting less naive pretty fast. This is why I encourage medicating kids, basically, when you go out the door, you need to have all your head with you, whether you're a kid or an adult.

Greyhound1
04-30-17, 12:10 AM
Great posts guys yes, I started taking Dexedrine when I was 22, and now being 31, my head spins at how naive and ignorant I was at 22. For 22 years I noticed nothing. Not a f thing. So in the last 9 years it was a speed learning, speed maturing process, I'm saying, this amphetamine really works because I'm learning things at a quick rate and getting less naive pretty fast.

I know what your sayin.

I am even further behind. :lol: I spent 45 years living on my own undiagnosed ADHD bizarre planet. I was actually relieved it was ADHD and not something even worse when I was finally diagnosed.

I had spent so many years seeking treatment and answers and only being misdiagnosed time after time again from so called experts.

I was extremely reluctant when I was diagnosed ADHD. My new Dr. picked up on it basically just from our initial consultation. She asked if I had ever been evaluated for ADHD before and I was shocked. She picked up on it in 10 minutes by accident whereas others Dr's never even considered for decades. I was only there for a check up. I soon got evaluated and she was right.

Treatment began to work immediately and my entire life changed and finally started to make sense.

I have learned and discovered more about myself since treatment began 4 years ago than in my entire life prior.

I finally learned why I was different in so many ways from my peers my whole life. This forum has greatly helped me realize my symptoms and issues I had that I had no prior explanations for growing up. Treatment and the accelerated rate of learning have greatly helped me too.

I have never read an entire book in my whole life. No way could I stay focused nearly enough to complete or comprehend it. Somehow, I even managed to get a degree in English from a major university. Thank god for Cliff Notes and taking mainly writing courses. We didn't have the internet back then.

I never used the internet before treatment except to check email and maybe look at some news from Yahoo. Now, I spend most of my free time researching any and everything that interests me online and on the forum. I certainly couldn't and wouldn't be a moderator here without treatment. Ain't no way. I would have never even joined or been able to keep up with my username and password.

Treatment has definitely accelerated my will, ability, motivation and desire for learning. I wish, I could have begun treatment when I was young. I often wonder how myself and my life may have been different had I. Better late than never I guess.

aeon
05-01-17, 03:14 PM
My new Dr. picked up on it basically just from our initial consultation. She asked if I had ever been evaluated for ADHD before and I was shocked. She picked up on it in 10 minutes by accident whereas others Dr's never even considered for decades.

Me too. Was my new doctor just that good, or were the rest of them worthless in this regard?

Granted, he has a specialty in ADHD, but still, when psychiatrists, psychotherapists, and doctors before were clueless. :doh:

41...better late that never...7 years on meds now...oh what could have been.


Cheers,
Ian

Postulate
05-01-17, 03:29 PM
Me too. Was my new doctor just that good, or were the rest of them worthless in this regard?

Granted, he has a specialty in ADHD, but still, when psychiatrists, psychotherapists, and doctors before were clueless. :doh:

41...better late that never...7 years on meds now...oh what could have been.


Cheers,
Ian

Ahhh! My friend Aeon :) doctors know enough to finish their shift at 4:30pm.