View Full Version : Can someone PLEASE explain how adoption twin studies rule out distresses of adoption?


mildadhd
05-23-17, 10:33 PM
Can someone PLEASE explain how adoption twin studies, rule out obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of the adoptions, as partial determining factors, used by researchers to explain ADHD as solely genetic?

I am BEGGING someone to explain how obvious adoption distresses are ruled out?

Please ask your doctors, your favourite AD(H)D researchers, genetic researchers or anyone else that might know?

I do not doubt that genetic factors are involved in some way, but I cannot accept any solely genetic ADHD theory until someone explains how.

I wish I could.

But until then I cannot stop thinking that there is so much more we could possibly learn and do as a society to help prevent or lessen severity in early life.



m

dvdnvwls
05-25-17, 07:04 PM
Who is claiming that adoption twin studies rule that out?

Lunacie
05-25-17, 08:17 PM
Can someone PLEASE explain how adoption twin studies, rule out obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of the adoptions, as partial determining factors, used by researchers to explain ADHD as solely genetic?



m

There is a difference between saying that twin studies prove that there is a
genetic component to adhd, and saying that they rule out other factors.

Research does seem to indicate that genetics is the largest factor, but that's
not the same as saying it's "solely genetic."

mildadhd
05-26-17, 03:58 AM
Who is claiming that adoption twin studies rule that out?

Anyone who rules out the obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of the adoption as possible determining factors in genetic expression.


m

mildadhd
05-26-17, 05:07 AM
There is a difference between saying that twin studies prove that there is a
genetic component to adhd, and saying that they rule out other factors.

Research does seem to indicate that genetics is the largest factor, but that's
not the same as saying it's "solely genetic."

In the opening post there is no doubting that any known genetic factors are involved in the adoption twin studies.

But how do people rule out the obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of the adoption as determining factors in causing any known genetic variants to be expressed?

There are people who have the known genetic variants associated with AD(H)D, but do not have AD(H)D, so there must be also other factors involved in expression of genetic variants associated with AD(H)D.

How do researchers know that the obvious distresses involved in the adoptions, are not determining factors in the expression of any known genetic variants associated with AD(H)D?

In other words, how do researchers know if genetic variants associated with AD(H)D are determining factors and obvious distresses of the adoptions are not determining factors?


m

Lunacie
05-26-17, 10:37 AM
In the opening post there is no doubting that any known genetic factors are involved in the adoption twin studies.

But how do people rule out the obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of the adoption as determining factors in causing any known genetic variants to be expressed?

There are people who have the known genetic variants associated with AD(H)D, but do not have AD(H)D, so there must be also other factors involved in expression of genetic variants associated with AD(H)D.

How do researchers know that the obvious distresses involved in the adoptions, are not determining factors in the expression of any known genetic variants associated with AD(H)D?

In other words, how do researchers know if genetic variants associated with AD(H)D are determining factors and obvious distresses of the adoptions are not determining factors?


m

Ah, I see what you are asking now. Maybe this will help answer your question:

A study of 25 children and adolescents with ADHD (aged 5–18 years) who were adopted within the first year of life reported that rates of ADHD are significantly higher between biological relatives (parent–child or sibling) compared with adoptive relatives.

http://adhd-institute.com/burden-of-adhd/aetiology/heritability/
(I hope that link is okay)

So they are not ruling out distress or other factors, they are only showing
that genetics are definitely involved.

mildadhd
05-26-17, 07:25 PM
Ah, I see what you are asking now. Maybe this will help answer your question:



http://adhd-institute.com/burden-of-adhd/aetiology/heritability/
(I hope that link is okay)

So they are not ruling out distress or other factors, they are only showing
that genetics are definitely involved.


I appreciate you trying, but again in this thread, I am not doubting inherited genetic factors are involved.

A much larger study than 25 people would be needed, to make the conclusions of the study you are quoting are concluding.


A much larger study of involving 17 000 people called the Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) concluded that children with one or more ACE's are more likely to have a diagnosis of ADHD.




m

mildadhd
05-26-17, 07:40 PM
Conclusions

• Children with ADHD have a higher prevalence of ACEs compared to children without ADHD

• Children who report one or more ACEs are more likely to have a diagnosis of ADHD and report moderate to severe ADHD, but are less likely to use ADHD medications


http://nfpaonline.org/Resources/Documents/Confr2015/presentations/Adverse%20Childhood%20Experiences%20and%20ADHD.pdf


Adoption obviously being an ACE (adverse childhood experience).


m

Lunacie
05-26-17, 08:24 PM
The main point of twin studies has been to determine heritability.

I haven't seen any twin studies on adhd where they were looking into other factors.

That doesn't mean they are making the claim that genetics is the only factor.

I've never seen any studies that make such a claim. If you've seen any studies
that come to that conclusion, it might help if you provide a link to that study.



BTW the link I posted also contained conclusions from many studies, not just
one study with a small number of participants.

mildadhd
05-26-17, 10:49 PM
The main point of twin studies has been to determine heritability.




Have you ever heard of a phenotypic trait?


A phenotypic trait, or simply trait, is a distinct variant of a phenotypic characteristic of an organism; it may be either inherited or determined environmentally, but typically occurs as a combination of the two.[1]


-Wiki

dvdnvwls
05-27-17, 05:32 AM
mild... Are you trying to say that there is never any genetic component to ADHD?

If that's not what you mean to say, then I think there's no problem to be solved here, because I think you and the researchers don't disagree about anything.

ginniebean
05-27-17, 05:35 PM
One question? Is adhd one disorder? We have people who have mild impairment, we have people with impairment and social deficits, we have severe adhd and social impairment, we have adhd with autistic traits, we have adhd from consumption of lead, we have brain trauma adhd. These are only some of the permutations adhd comes as.

Even tho adhd is classified as one syndrome this does not rule out that there may be more than one or even several varieties.

Given these ranges and confounding factors, both genetic and environmental causes are clearly in play. There are people who do not have inherited adhd, this takes nothing away from heritabilty or environment. Both can and do stand.

dvdnvwls
05-27-17, 06:28 PM
mildadhd... I was thinking, are you intending to get across that studies of ADHD in adopted twins have inherently low validity because adoption should be viewed as a huge confound that renders the entire study meaningless?

mildadhd
05-27-17, 06:45 PM
mild... Are you trying to say that there is never any genetic component to ADHD?



In general, hypersensitive temperament or not, unhealthy or healthy circumstances, there are always both genetic and environmental components involved in development.

In this thread discussion, I am focusing on both a more sensitive inherited temperament and distressful environmental circumstances.

But since you asked, there does not need to be any inherited more sensitive temperament/genetic predisposition, to have symptoms of ADHD, if distressful environmental circumstances are severe enough to interfere with healthy early neurodevelopment.

In some people, there will be greater concentration of developmental problems.

This may be because their specific circumstances were worse, or because they were more sensitive, deeply affected by conditions that others with more robust temperaments could better withstand.

They are the ones likely to be diagnosed with AD(H)D or some other "disorder".



-Gabor Mate, "Scattered", p 42.




m

Fuzzy12
05-27-17, 06:48 PM
I'm pretty sure that the environment plays a big rule in determining impairments. Maybe it affects symptom severity as well. If it can switch on or not adhd in someone with a genetic vulnerability I don't know (this is your stand isn't it?) I think it's likely as other disorders like depression or anxiety are likely to work that way. Well or maybe adhd is nothing like these. As far as I know no one knows for sure yet. Toll then we definitely can't Rule out environmental Factors.

I wonder 2gat factors are controlled for I'm adoption twin studies. I assume it would be possible to control for factors such as excessive alcohol consumption during pregnant or other substance abuse (which is relevant to some kids in care/adopted I think).

Also the age at which these kids have gone into care would matter or more importantly their earliest environment. I suppose they are more likely to have come from dysfunctional birth families anyway. Also.I don't think it's just the adoption that's distressing but also.the process of being removed from your birthday family, passing through different foster homes, etc

Lunacie
05-27-17, 07:37 PM
BiPolar and Autism are both highly heritible as well.

I'm curious as to whether a stressful infancy can also trigger those disorders?

mildadhd
05-28-17, 12:29 AM
One question? Is adhd one disorder? We have people who have mild impairment, we have people with impairment and social deficits, we have severe adhd and social impairment, we have adhd with autistic traits, we have adhd from consumption of lead, we have brain trauma adhd. These are only some of the permutations adhd comes as.

Even tho adhd is classified as one syndrome this does not rule out that there may be more than one or even several varieties.

Given these ranges and confounding factors, both genetic and environmental causes are clearly in play. There are people who do not have inherited adhd, this takes nothing away from heritabilty or environment. Both can and do stand.

Thanks ginniebean,

There are many inherited and environmental circumstances that can influence brain development resulting in a more sensitive temperament and symptoms associated with ADHD.

Interestingly twin studies research shows before birth and the first 6 years of life is the most environmentally influential period of brain development, and people who have ADHD, have symptoms of AD(H)D before the age of 7.

I really appreciate you focusing on both possible genetic and environmental factors, involved.

Considering heritability statistics without considering possible temperament and environmental factors does not promote best possible individual treatment options. (the main focus of this thread discussion)

It would be interesting to start more in depth thread discussions on each of the different possible scenarios you mentioned and other scenarios mentioned in this thread that may result in symptoms associated with ADHD, considering possible genetic, environmental and treatment factors.


m

mildadhd
05-28-17, 06:53 PM
I'm pretty sure that the environment plays a big rule in determining impairments. Maybe it affects symptom severity as well. If it can switch on or not adhd in someone with a genetic vulnerability I don't know (this is your stand isn't it?) I think it's likely as other disorders like depression or anxiety are likely to work that way. Well or maybe adhd is nothing like these. As far as I know no one knows for sure yet. Toll then we definitely can't Rule out environmental Factors.

I wonder 2gat factors are controlled for I'm adoption twin studies. I assume it would be possible to control for factors such as excessive alcohol consumption during pregnant or other substance abuse (which is relevant to some kids in care/adopted I think).

Also the age at which these kids have gone into care would matter or more importantly their earliest environment. I suppose they are more likely to have come from dysfunctional birth families anyway. Also.I don't think it's just the adoption that's distressing but also.the process of being removed from your birthday family, passing through different foster homes, etc

My stand is..

The hyperactivity, inattention and impulsivity symptoms associated with ADHD are normal traits in early life.

Children normally develop the basic foundation for self control in early childhood, before the age of 7.

Genetic variants associated with ADHD, influence the sensitivity of the individual temperament's, genetic variants do not "create" separate forms (for lack of better words) of hyperactivity, inattention and implusitivity (these traits are still the same normal traits, normal in early life)

Children who inherit more sensitive temperaments are more likely to distress easier, during both perceived or real circumstances, interfering with the natural critical period of self regulation.(before birth and the age of 7)

Some development of self regulation is always possible if not distressed (perceived or real) through out life, but the rapid decline in the rate of the basic foundation of self regulation, normally declines dramatically between the age of 1 and 7.

Leaving people with more sensitive temperaments who are easier distressed, (distress due to a more sensitive temperament and/or life circumstances) stuck with these young traits.

Many of us, with more sensitive temperaments and/or distressful circumstances, never outgrow what where originally normal hyperactive, inattention and impulsive traits, in early life, that now are seen as symptoms.

Some people do outgrow these traits/symptoms, depending on individual temperament and individual circumstances.




m

mildadhd
05-28-17, 07:31 PM
I personally do not think it is worth distressing ourselves over whether we will out grow traits/symptoms, or not.

I do think it helps to accept and understand the situation.


m

mildadhd
05-28-17, 10:32 PM
BiPolar and Autism are both highly heritible as well.

I'm curious as to whether a stressful infancy can also trigger those disorders?

I do not think symptoms of ADHD, are "triggered"

I think inherited hypersensitive temperament and distressed circumstances, can interfere in the development of self control that inhibits normal early childhood hyperactivity, inattention and impulsivity traits.

I do not know about the inherited genetic predisposition related to Bi Polar and Autism, but I think that similar factors involved in any underdevelopment associated with ADHD symptoms, that people with Bi Polar and Autism also experience would be similar in regards to inherited temperament and individual circumstances associated with ADHD symptoms, in general.

I did read about 3 years ago, that there was some type of imaging/research, that shows some developmental differences associated in at least some people with Autism that could be noticed as early as the second trimester, while developmental differences associated with at least some people with ADHD could be noticed as early as the third trimester.

There is some research involving pregnant woman who witnessed the distressful 9/11 attack in New York.

And follow up studies on the children after birth concluded that development of infants that were in the third trimester, was more influenced by the environmental distresses experienced, than infants that where in the 2nd trimester.

So I think environmental factors involved in Autism would be less, at least in the second trimester.

To be clear, I have never doubted that there are possible inherited genetic factors in Autism, Bipolar or ADHD.

The main point of this thread discussion is that considering, individual inherited temperament and determining environmental circumstances promote the best options for individual ADHD treatment.

m

dvdnvwls
05-29-17, 02:01 AM
mildadhd... Is there one particular study or publication you could point to, in which the authors insist that twin studies rule out the stress of adoption as a factor in ADHD development? I'm having a hard time imagining that someone would make that claim.

mildadhd
05-29-17, 04:27 AM
mildadhd... Is there one particular study or publication you could point to, in which the authors insist that twin studies rule out the stress of adoption as a factor in ADHD development? I'm having a hard time imagining that someone would make that claim.


If I knew of adoption twin research that explained how obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of adoption are ruled out as determining factors, in the thread's opening post I would not have asked other ADDForum members to help me understand how?

If adoption distresses are not ruled out as determining factors, I think it is extremely important to know whenever considering adoption twin research, in regards to origin and treatment.

Do you think we should know how adoption distresses are ruled out as determining factors, whenever considering adoption twin research?


M

Fuzzy12
05-29-17, 05:48 AM
My stand is..

The hyperactivity, inattention and impulsivity symptoms associated with ADHD are normal traits in early life.

Children normally develop the basic foundation for self control in early childhood, before the age of 7.

Genetic variants associated with ADHD, influence the sensitivity of the individual temperament's, genetic variants do not "create" separate forms (for lack of better words) of hyperactivity, inattention and implusitivity (these traits are still the same normal traits, normal in early life)

Children who inherit more sensitive temperaments are more likely to distress easier, during both perceived or real circumstances, interfering with the natural critical period of self regulation.(before birth and the age of 7)

Some development of self regulation is always possible if not distressed (perceived or real) through out life, but the rapid decline in the rate of the basic foundation of self regulation, normally declines dramatically between the age of 1 and 7.

Leaving people with more sensitive temperaments who are easier distressed, (distress due to a more sensitive temperament and/or life circumstances) stuck with these young traits.

Many of us, with more sensitive temperaments and/or distressful circumstances, never outgrow what where originally normal hyperactive, inattention and impulsive traits, in early life, that now are seen as symptoms.

Some people do outgrow these traits/symptoms, depending on individual temperament and individual circumstances.




m

Interesting. Thanks for explaining it to me again.

However, this would mean that everyone with adhd has experienced stress before the age of 7. Unless you are saying that people with adhd are so hypersensitive to stress that even normal expected stressors that every child experiences interferes with their normal development.

Fuzzy12
05-29-17, 06:04 AM
If I knew of adoption twin research that explained how obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of adoption are ruled out as determining factors, in the thread's opening post I would not have asked other ADDForum members to help me understand how?

If adoption distresses are not ruled out as determining factors, I think it is extremely important to know whenever considering adoption twin research, in regards to origin and treatment.

Do you think we should know how adoption distresses are ruled out as determining factors, whenever considering adoption twin research?


M

I think trying to quantify the stress caused by adoption would warrant an entire field of study.

Maybe one way to determine this would be to have several control groups. Or rather to get different groups of results.

So let's say you have a population of twins, separated at birth and adopted immediately. One twin goes into a low stress family and the other twin into a high stress family. Now you should see the following results if stress in early life triggers adhd in hypersensitive kids.

1. Neither of the twins develops adhd

2. The twin in the low stress family does not develop adhd but the twin in the high stress family does. This would support your theory.

However if we find that

2a. The twin in the low stress family as well as the twin in the high stress family both develop adhd this would disprove your theory.


I realise that the above does not exactly study the effect of distress causes purely by the process if adoption but I'm assuming that it's not the fact that someone is adopted that causes them stress but their early life in a dysfunctional family, being taken away from their birth family and put into care/foster homes and then having to adjust to life in the adoptive family.

Maybe by doing the adoption immediately after birth these confounding factors can be avoided (in my hypothetical study. In reality I'm not even sure if you can adopt immediately after birth). Also you'd have to control for factors affecting the pregnancy like substance abuse, alcohol etc. In my study I'm substituting the distress caused by the adoption process with distress caused by the stress level of the adoptive family. Does this make sense?

Fuzzy12
05-29-17, 06:25 AM
Thanks ginniebean,

There are many inherited and environmental circumstances that can influence brain development resulting in a more sensitive temperament and symptoms associated with ADHD.

Interestingly twin studies research shows before birth and the first 6 years of life is the most environmentally influential period of brain development, and people who have ADHD, have symptoms of AD(H)D before the age of 7.

I really appreciate you focusing on both possible genetic and environmental factors, involved.

Considering heritability statistics without considering possible temperament and environmental factors does not promote best possible individual treatment options. (the main focus of this thread discussion)

It would be interesting to start more in depth thread discussions on each of the different possible scenarios you mentioned and other scenarios mentioned in this thread that may result in symptoms associated with ADHD, considering possible genetic, environmental and treatment factors.


m

I think these early years are vital as well (no pressure then....:rolleyes:). It would be really interesting (for me) to discuss what can be done in those early years to best promote development and how to possibly mitigate the presence of adhd, the severity of symptoms or impairments (if adhd is is slightly more likely eg because the parents have it or because of risk factors like pre and postnatal stressors)

Lunacie
05-29-17, 11:00 AM
I think trying to quantify the stress caused by adoption would warrant an entire field of study.

Maybe one way to determine this would be to have several control groups. Or rather to get different groups of results.

So let's say you have a population of twins, separated at birth and adopted immediately. One twin goes into a low stress family and the other twin into a high stress family. Now you should see the following results if stress in early life triggers adhd in hypersensitive kids.

1. Neither of the twins develops adhd

2. The twin in the low stress family does not develop adhd but the twin in the high stress family does. This would support your theory.

However if we find that

2a. The twin in the low stress family as well as the twin in the high stress family both develop adhd this would disprove your theory.


I realise that the above does not exactly study the effect of distress causes purely by the process if adoption but I'm assuming that it's not the fact that someone is adopted that causes them stress but their early life in a dysfunctional family, being taken away from their birth family and put into care/foster homes and then having to adjust to life in the adoptive family.

Maybe by doing the adoption immediately after birth these confounding factors can be avoided (in my hypothetical study. In reality I'm not even sure if you can adopt immediately after birth). Also you'd have to control for factors affecting the pregnancy like substance abuse, alcohol etc. In my study I'm substituting the distress caused by the adoption process with distress caused by the stress level of the adoptive family. Does this make sense?

I wonder if they also take into account whether the twins are identical or
fraternal?

However, I may finally understand Mild to be saying that he agrees there is a
genetic component, as shown by twin studies.

His concern is the early stressors and traumas (including adoption) and any
helpful parenting techniques that can make adhd either more or less severe.

Clearly there isn't anything that can be done about some stressors, such as
the 911 attack ... or the tornado that my young granddaughter and her fetus
baby sister went through. Did it make Katlin's adhd more severe, contribute
to her anxiety and depression? Did it change the development of the baby
inside my daughter and cause her to have autism?

How much does trauma to the expectant mother play into the baby's brain
development?

dvdnvwls
05-29-17, 01:11 PM
If I knew of adoption twin research that explained how obvious prenatal and postnatal distresses of adoption are ruled out as determining factors, in the thread's opening post I would not have asked other ADDForum members to help me understand how?

If adoption distresses are not ruled out as determining factors, I think it is extremely important to know whenever considering adoption twin research, in regards to origin and treatment.

Do you think we should know how adoption distresses are ruled out as determining factors, whenever considering adoption twin research?


Oh! I think I get it!

Well, they can't ever rule anything out, so they instead have to find reasonable ways to allow for such factors when analyzing their data.

If you wanted to survey which brand makes the most popular ice cream, but one of the brands only comes in flavours that have peanuts in them, you'd have to realize that some people like peanuts so much that they'll score that brand too high, others hate peanuts and will score that brand too low, and others are allergic to peanuts and can't touch that brand at all. You can't make the allergic people not-allergic, and you can't change the preferences of the others, so you have to come up with ways to make sure the peanuts aren't skewing people's scores too much.

peripatetic
05-29-17, 04:25 PM
How much does trauma to the expectant mother play into the baby's brain
development?

i hope this isn't off topic, but i worried about this ceaselessly when i found out i was pregnant, and how pregnant, up until giving birth. i read some study that mum's anxiety can predispose baby to anxiety/depression and with my current diagnoses and their genetic components...i was terrified my baby would end up with all three of my diagnoses, plus some other anxiety and depression.

my psychiatrist encouraged me to get a grip and pointed out that mentally healthy children have been born in times of war and famine. no, it's not ideal, but worrying about all of the things your worrying might do to your child is just going to make life hell. and he practically begged me to add two more medications to the mix, not because he was worried about her, but he was worried about me.

i just want to note that because, and this is luna clarifying what she sees mild as saying... and i'm not looking to disagree with either of them...but pregnancy is a time when i was so looking for what i could control that i found nothing but what i couldn't control or was unable to despite wanting to. it made my postpartum OCD manifest even worse than my OCD had been prepartum and it took me from being a person who's generally passively suicidal to being an actively suicidal one thinking the only way to not traumatise my child by my mere existence would be to remove said existence from her. (and the graphic violent intrusive thoughts didn't help either.)

i don't know what "trauma" is defined as in this thread...or if it's exampled best by domestic violence...yes, the woman should be out of the situation for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the pregnancy, but not exclusively because of that either...or if it's exampled by the mum's mental instability/health or lack thereof... but i'm wary of linking mental illness to mum's mental health during pregnancy because it is really only making it worse for a pregnant mum out there reading that.

i hope that makes sense. i just heard my small girl, so must run

mildadhd
05-29-17, 04:27 PM
Interesting. Thanks for explaining it to me again.

However, this would mean that everyone with adhd has experienced stress before the age of 7. Unless you are saying that people with adhd are so hypersensitive to stress that even normal expected stressors that every child experiences interferes with their normal development.

Thanks You

Your raising some very important points, that are helping me to understand the topics more in depth.

I think in general all the possible factors mentioned by Everyone in this thread can be organized into two groups.

Temperament and Circumstances.

Hypersensitive temperaments can be distressed much easier, than more robust temperaments.

People with hypersensitive temperaments can perceive that something is distressful, while people with more robust temperaments will not understand, unless they consider the situation from the hypersensitive perspective. (If they can)

These differences in perception can influence development.

If primary caregivers are aware of this, they can make accommodations for children with more sensitive temperaments, but only if they understand the differences. (Extremely important)

If not, treating a person with more sensitive temperament, like they should have a more robust temperament can even make things worse.

Of course not all people are adopted, but there are many other unavoidable family circumstances, Adverse Childhood Experiences that can result in chronic exposure to distress hormones.(which are general possible transcription factors)

Example, a parent or other family member that gets hospitalized for numerous reasons, a parent in a car accident, etc.

Certainly not the parents fault if they get separated from their child as a result, but the separation must be addressed, that is partly why I think these topics are important for society to realize, for the long term.

ACE studies show that children only need to be exposed to one ACE, for ADHD to be more likely.

All the topics considered in this thread, always have at least two general factors to consider, temperament and circumstances.





M

dvdnvwls
05-29-17, 04:31 PM
Being anxious about the fact that you might become anxious, is an unfortunate trap to be caught in.

Fuzzy12
05-29-17, 05:06 PM
i hope this isn't off topic, but i worried about this ceaselessly when i found out i was pregnant, and how pregnant, up until giving birth. i read some study that mum's anxiety can predispose baby to anxiety/depression and with my current diagnoses and their genetic components...i was terrified my baby would end up with all three of my diagnoses, plus some other anxiety and depression.

my psychiatrist encouraged me to get a grip and pointed out that mentally healthy children have been born in times of war and famine. no, it's not ideal, but worrying about all of the things your worrying might do to your child is just going to make life hell. and he practically begged me to add two more medications to the mix, not because he was worried about her, but he was worried about me.

i just want to note that because, and this is luna clarifying what she sees mild as saying... and i'm not looking to disagree with either of them...but pregnancy is a time when i was so looking for what i could control that i found nothing but what i couldn't control or was unable to despite wanting to. it made my postpartum OCD manifest even worse than my OCD had been prepartum and it took me from being a person who's generally passively suicidal to being an actively suicidal one thinking the only way to not traumatise my child by my mere existence would be to remove said existence from her. (and the graphic violent intrusive thoughts didn't help either.)

i don't know what "trauma" is defined as in this thread...or if it's exampled best by domestic violence...yes, the woman should be out of the situation for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the pregnancy, but not exclusively because of that either...or if it's exampled by the mum's mental instability/health or lack thereof... but i'm wary of linking mental illness to mum's mental health during pregnancy because it is really only making it worse for a pregnant mum out there reading that.

i hope that makes sense. i just heard my small girl, so must run

Same here. I read the same thing but then in my first trimester I went through a fairly bad bout of depression and terrible anxiety (funnily enough not related to the pregnancy but to an argument with a family member). It lasted for a long time too and I kept worrying about the effect this might have on my baby.

I considered taking anti depressants but then since I'm in psychiatric care I'd have to see my psychiatrist and I thought that would take a few months (to get an appointment). Besides I hate my psychiatrists and just didn't want to see them.

Hm maybe that's the kind of support mild talks about..psychiatric support in pregnancy.

So I'm hoping that it didn't effect fuzzling and if it did that at least I can provide an environment now that is more conducive.

And I worry hugely about genetics, if she could inherit any of my disorders. In fact for many years I didn't want to have kids because of that risk. Well I did want I just thought I shouldn't.

Lunacie
05-29-17, 05:07 PM
Thanks You

Your raising some very important points, that are helping me to understand the topics more in depth.

I think in general all the possible factors mentioned by Everyone in this thread can be organized into two groups.

Temperament and Circumstances.

Hypersensitive temperaments can be distressed much easier, than more robust temperaments.

People with hypersensitive temperaments can perceive that something is distressful, while people with more robust temperaments will not understand, unless they consider the situation from the hypersensitive perspective. (If they can)

These differences in perception can influence development.

If primary caregivers are aware of this, they can make accommodations for children with more sensitive temperaments, but only if they understand the differences. (Extremely important)

If not, treating a person with more sensitive temperament, like they should have a more robust temperament can even make things worse.

Of course not all people are adopted, but there are many other unavoidable family circumstances, Adverse Childhood Experiences that can result in chronic exposure to distress hormones.(which are general possible transcription factors)

Example, a parent or other family member that gets hospitalized for numerous reasons, a parent in a car accident, etc.

Certainly not the parents fault if they get separated from their child as a result, but the separation must be addressed, that is partly why I think these topics are important for society to realize, for the long term.

ACE studies show that children only need to be exposed to one ACE, for ADHD to be more likely.

All the topics considered in this thread, always have at least two general factors to consider, temperament and circumstances.





M

Hm ... what causes the hypersensitive temperament?

mildadhd
05-29-17, 09:52 PM
Hm ... what causes the hypersensitive temperament?


A person who is allergic to dust, is born with a inherited hypersensitive temperament to dust.

The combination of a hypersensitive temperament and exposure to dusty circumstances causes a hyperreactive response.

If there is no exposure to dusty circumstances, there will be no hyperreactive response, even if the person is born with a inherited hypersensitive temperament.








m

peripatetic
05-29-17, 09:56 PM
A person who is allergic to dust has a inherited hypersensitive temperament to dust, is more reactive to dusty circumstances.








m

i'm confused by this. it seems like an off comparison. allergies can be caused by any number of things but a true allergy is not the same as a sensitivity in my mind (i'm deathly allergic to penicillin, literally...deathly). but, how would that compare with temperament?

how do you define temperament, i suppose is the question. do you mean disposition or do you mean level of emotional resilience or...?

mildadhd
05-29-17, 10:23 PM
i'm confused by this. it seems like an off comparison. allergies can be caused by any number of things but a true allergy is not the same as a sensitivity in my mind (i'm deathly allergic to penicillin, literally...deathly). but, how would that compare with temperament?

how do you define temperament, i suppose is the question. do you mean disposition or do you mean level of emotional resilience or...?


It is an off comparison...

I was trying to avoid triggering emotional distressful response by using a homeostatic example instead of a emotional example.

There are 3 macro types of response systems...

-emotional
-sensory
-homeostatic

One definition of temperament is hard to express because chemistries in the body and brain, have evolved to have more than one "job".

Example cortisol is involved in regulation of blood sugar and emotional distress, and has other "jobs", as well.

m

Lunacie
05-29-17, 10:23 PM
A person who is allergic to dust, is born with a inherited hypersensitive temperament to dust.

The combination of a hypersensitive temperament and exposure to dusty circumstances causes a hyperreactive response.

If there is no exposure to dusty circumstances, there will be no hyperreactive response, even if the person is born with a inherited hypersensitive temperament.

m

I see you saying that the hypersensitive temperament is genetic, or inherited.


Okay then, if a person who is hypersensitive to dust is never exposed to dust,
they don't develop a full allergy, right?

The dust "triggers" the allergy.

But you said that you "do not think symptoms of ADHD, are "triggered."


Color me very confused. Can you help me understand?

mildadhd
05-29-17, 10:47 PM
I see you saying that the hypersensitive temperament is genetic, or inherited.


Okay then, if a person who is hypersensitive to dust is never exposed to dust,
they don't develop a full allergy, right?

The dust "triggers" the allergy.

But you said that you "do not think symptoms of ADHD, are "triggered."


Color me very confused. Can you help me understand?

Yes the hypersensitive temperament is inherited.

Hyperactivity, inattention and impulsivity are normal traits in early childhood.

As higher areas in our brain mature they develop the ability to self regulate/inhibit hyperactivity, inattention and implusive behaviour.

The more sensitive temperament (hypersensitive temperament) interferes with development of brain areas involved in self regulation when exposed to certain environments that the inherited temperament is sensitive to.

Both inherited temperament and circumstances are always involved.





m

peripatetic
05-29-17, 10:48 PM
It is an off comparison...

I was trying to avoid triggering emotional distressful response by using a homeostatic example instead of a emotional example.

There are 3 macro types of response systems...

-emotional
-sensory
-homeostatic

One definition of temperament is hard to express because chemistries in the body and brain, have evolved to have more than one "job".

Example cortisol is involved in regulation of blood sugar and emotional distress, and has other "jobs", as well.

m

i understand that hormones would "influence" temperament...but what is temperament itself?

when you say hypersensitive temperament, it seems there would be a hyposensitive one as well. that (hypo-sensitive) sounds like having a flattened affect. that can be caused by numerous things.

but, bottom line, is temperament equivalent, roughly, to affect (affect the noun, not the verb)?

Lunacie
05-29-17, 11:07 PM
Yes the hypersensitive temperament is inherited.

Hyperactivity, inattention and impulsivity are normal traits in early childhood.

As higher areas in our brain mature they develop the ability to self regulate/inhibit hyperactivity, inattention and implusive behaviour.

The more sensitive temperament (hypersensitive temperament) interferes with development of brain areas involved in self regulation when exposed to certain environments that the inherited temperament is sensitive to.

Both inherited temperament and circumstances are always involved.


m


If both inherited temperament and stressful circumstances are involved,
then why wouldn't you say that the circumstances "trigger" a temperament
to delay some areas of development?

mildadhd
05-29-17, 11:34 PM
i understand that hormones would "influence" temperament...but what is temperament itself?

when you say hypersensitive temperament, it seems there would be a hyposensitive one as well. that (hypo-sensitive) sounds like having a flattened affect. that can be caused by numerous things.

but, bottom line, is temperament equivalent, roughly, to affect (affect the noun, not the verb)?

On the primary level of brain control these are the "Three general types of affects" quoted below, but there are also secondary "basic learning mechanisms" and tertiary "representive awareness functions of the neocortex (which relies completely on loops down through the basal ganglia to the thalamus, looping back to the neocortex before it can fully elaborate both thoughts and behavior)" information processing levels, that make up the global levels of control within the brain. I am not sure if is enough to describe temperament as the primary level but I think it might be considered the foundation?

I am just beginning to learn how the body systems are involved and communicate with the brain systems, but the body and global brain would not "function" without the primary level state controls. Affective consciousness originates on the primary level but I do not think affective consciousness could exist without the secondary processing level? But children born without the neocortex do have affective consciousness.

Is that what you are asking?

I was thinking global temperament would involve global function of all 3 brain control and levels, and body?

but to be honest I never though about it like that til you asked?

Primary-Process, Basic-Primordial Affects (Sub-neocortical)

i)Emotional Affects (Emotional Action Systems: Intentions-in-Actions)

ii) Homeostatic Affects (Brain-body Interoceptors; Hunger, Hunger, Thrist, etc)

iii) Sensory Affects (Exteroceptive-Sensory triggered pleasurable and unpleasurable/disgusting feelings)


-Jaak Panksepp, "The Archaeology Of Mind", P10.

mildadhd
05-29-17, 11:38 PM
Side Note: I might have made a mistake to call dust allergies homeostatic, maybe a interaction between all three affects I am not sure.

Awesome questions.


m

mildadhd
05-30-17, 12:01 AM
If both inherited temperament and stressful circumstances are involved,
then why wouldn't you say that the circumstances "trigger" a temperament
to delay some areas of development?

I guess you could say "trigger" if you want, in this example.

Edit: I think I would probably write... "the circumstances "stimulate" a hypersensitive response that delays some areas of self regulation development, resulting in ADHD symptoms" (or something like that)(in this example)(it is hard to know exactly what I would write without a more specific example with affect involved)

Hyperactivity, inattention and impulsivity are normal traits in early life, before we develop more mature self regulation, the traits are viewed as symptoms when there is a delay in the maturity of self regulation, which results in a deficit to regulate of these traits.







m

peripatetic
05-30-17, 12:17 AM
maybe it's not affect...maybe by temperament you mean "orientation to processing the world" ...?

dvdnvwls
05-30-17, 12:36 AM
Any normal trait that a person has at birth is inherited.

mildadhd
05-30-17, 01:57 AM
maybe it's not affect...maybe by temperament you mean "orientation to processing the world" ...?

I was reading an article involving development of self regulation and the term orientation was in it, let me look for it and get back to you.

Sometimes some articles do not consider the primary affect level below the amygdala, so I do not read them. They start at the secondary level and above the amygdala which is learning and memories.

But primary affects are the foundation of behavior.

But when I consider all three primary, secondary and tertiary levels from the bottom up, (order of evolution), then from the top down tertiary, secondary, primary level, things are much easier to understand how things work depending on the context.


I cannot remember where I read...

Primary level temperament? ( more genetic)

Secondary level temperament? (more epigenetic)

Tertiary level temperament? (more epigenetic)


-Mood disorder's may involve primary sensitivities and secondary sensitivites?

-ADHD may involve secondary sensitivities and tertiary sensitivities?

Even if this is on the right track, I think we need to always consider all 3 levels on a global perspective to understand the whole picture.

Example, lack of Emotional self regulation (top down condition) although there is not a "problem" with the primary level, we need to consider how behavor in general originates from the primary emotional affects and may be amplified due to a lack of higher emotional self regulation, even though we are not speaking about Emotional disregulation (bottom up condition) mood condition, in this example.

primary/secondary experiences (implicit) memories (before the ability) of secondary/tertiary expereinces (explicit) memories are "online" possible.

I really do not know? but this is a really fun conversation, I will keep an eye out for more information.



m

mildadhd
05-30-17, 02:11 AM
Any normal trait that a person has at birth is inherited.

I do not know the exact definition, but we are not born with the ability for (top down) self regulation, is that considered a trait? (I do not know)

We might be the first people to figure this stuff out. LOL:D

On wiki they wrote, "none, though, has achieved general consensus in academia.[1]"

Lunacie posted this link a year or so ago, and I have been meaning to read it.

In psychology, temperament refers to those aspects of an individual's personality, such that are often regarded as biologically based and sometimes innate rather than learned. A great many classificatory schemes for temperament have been developed; none, though, has achieved general consensus in academia.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperament

Lunacie
05-30-17, 11:14 AM
I do not know the exact definition, but we are not born with the ability for (top down) self regulation, is that considered a trait? (I do not know)

We might be the first people to figure this stuff out. LOL:D

On wiki they wrote, "none, though, has achieved general consensus in academia.[1]"

Lunacie posted this link a year or so ago, and I have been meaning to read it.

I believe we are born with the ability to self-regulate, but it must be
developed.

Consider our muscles, they are there at birth but we have little control
of them as infants. Over time, with use, we develop our control of them.

Consider our speech. We are born with the ability to speak, and we do make
noises, but it takes time and practice to develop recognizable speech.

ADHD delays the development of some of our abilities and our competence in
using them.

dvdnvwls
05-30-17, 02:33 PM
I think it's not a delay but a deficiency. I'm nearing 50 years old, and if I had a delay, I would obviously function normally by now.

Lunacie
05-30-17, 03:01 PM
I think it's not a delay but a deficiency. I'm nearing 50 years old, and if I had a delay, I would obviously function normally by now.

Researchers are paying more attention to the neocortex these days, the lining
of the brain that contains the neural connections. Studies show that the
frontal area of this lining is thinner in the brains of children with adhd. This
frontal neocortex is important for the ability to control thinking, attention and
planning.

Before puberty, new neurons are being formed and the lining thickens. After
puberty a pruning process happens with some unused neural connections
being deleted.

So perhaps a brain that is 30% delayed in maturation stops that growth
process at puberty and never reaches the same thickness as a neuro-normal
brain?

That would make you right I guess. In children adhd is a developmental delay.
In adults, adhd is a developmental deficiency.

dvdnvwls
05-30-17, 03:24 PM
Researchers are paying more attention to the neocortex these days, the lining
of the brain that contains the neural connections. Studies show that the
frontal area of this lining is thinner in the brains of children with adhd. This
frontal neocortex is important for the ability to control thinking, attention and
planning.

Before puberty, new neurons are being formed and the lining thickens. After
puberty a pruning process happens with some unused neural connections
being deleted.

So perhaps a brain that is 30% delayed in maturation stops that growth
process at puberty and never reaches the same thickness as a neuro-normal
brain?

That would make you right I guess. In children adhd is a developmental delay.
In adults, adhd is a developmental deficiency.
I think the insistence on calling things "delay" is nothing but a cop-out, one that may have started as a patronizing comment from a professional to a pestering parent.

When your airline flight is delayed, it's still going to arrive. Kids with ADHD are not going to become neurologically normal when they're older. Their trip to Normal has been cancelled, not delayed.

Lunacie
05-30-17, 03:58 PM
I think the insistence on calling things "delay" is nothing but a cop-out, one that may have started as a patronizing comment from a professional to a pestering parent.

When your airline flight is delayed, it's still going to arrive. Kids with ADHD are not going to become neurologically normal when they're older. Their trip to Normal has been cancelled, not delayed.

Some are not as delayed as others, and have such mild symptoms as an adult
that they don't qualify for a diagnosis anymore.

mildadhd
05-30-17, 11:31 PM
sorry, my mistake

mildadhd
05-30-17, 11:42 PM
In regards to this specific thread topic question..

Does anyone disagree with the conclusion...that nobody can rule out obvious pre and post natal distressful circumstances of adoption, in adoption twin studies/research, as possible transcription factors in (inherited) genetic expression (in general)?



m

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 12:52 AM
I think the study setup I outlined below would rule it out or confirm that. If anyone has done such a study (or controlled for factors such as adoption stress in some other way) I don't know.

I think trying to quantify the stress caused by adoption would warrant an entire field of study.

Maybe one way to determine this would be to have several control groups. Or rather to get different groups of results.

So let's say you have a population of twins, separated at birth and adopted immediately. One twin goes into a low stress family and the other twin into a high stress family. Now you should see the following results if stress in early life triggers adhd in hypersensitive kids.

1. Neither of the twins develops adhd

2. The twin in the low stress family does not develop adhd but the twin in the high stress family does. This would support your theory.

However if we find that

2a. The twin in the low stress family as well as the twin in the high stress family both develop adhd this would disprove your theory.


I realise that the above does not exactly study the effect of distress causes purely by the process if adoption but I'm assuming that it's not the fact that someone is adopted that causes them stress but their early life in a dysfunctional family, being taken away from their birth family and put into care/foster homes and then having to adjust to life in the adoptive family.

Maybe by doing the adoption immediately after birth these confounding factors can be avoided (in my hypothetical study. In reality I'm not even sure if you can adopt immediately after birth). Also you'd have to control for factors affecting the pregnancy like substance abuse, alcohol etc. In my study I'm substituting the distress caused by the adoption process with distress caused by the stress level of the adoptive family. Does this make sense?

mildadhd
05-31-17, 02:21 AM
I think trying to quantify the stress caused by adoption would warrant an entire field of study.

Maybe one way to determine this would be to have several control groups. Or rather to get different groups of results.

So let's say you have a population of twins, separated at birth and adopted immediately. One twin goes into a low stress family and the other twin into a high stress family. Now you should see the following results if stress in early life triggers adhd in hypersensitive kids.

1. Neither of the twins develops adhd

2. The twin in the low stress family does not develop adhd but the twin in the high stress family does. This would support your theory.

However if we find that

2a. The twin in the low stress family as well as the twin in the high stress family both develop adhd this would disprove your theory.


I realise that the above does not exactly study the effect of distress causes purely by the process if adoption but I'm assuming that it's not the fact that someone is adopted that causes them stress but their early life in a dysfunctional family, being taken away from their birth family and put into care/foster homes and then having to adjust to life in the adoptive family.

Maybe by doing the adoption immediately after birth these confounding factors can be avoided (in my hypothetical study. In reality I'm not even sure if you can adopt immediately after birth). Also you'd have to control for factors affecting the pregnancy like substance abuse, alcohol etc. In my study I'm substituting the distress caused by the adoption process with distress caused by the stress level of the adoptive family. Does this make sense?

Sorry I missed your post earlier.

-How do you rule out obvious chronic prenatal distresses experienced by the mother (and infants) the months before birth because she giving up her infants as factors.

-The very large Adverse Childhood Experiences research concluded that children are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD if they experienced one or more ACEs.

Side Note: I have a relative who adopted two babies about 9 and 10 years ago, and she was actually allowed in the delivery room and they where interviewed and keep in contact with the biological mothers both before and after the adoption.

This is the kind of stuff I am trying to support.

Which is amazing to hear, because this may really help reduce prenatal and post natal distresses. (transcription factors)

Which is the reason why the adoption protocol was changed in those circumstances.

When I was young that would have been unheard of, and am not sure if other states/provinces are as advanced/aware as where she lives.

I think understanding the inherited predisposition is not the only important factor involved, but also possible transcription factors, not only in regards to ADHD but many other health issues that children may be predisposed to.


m

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 04:11 AM
Sorry I missed your post earlier.

-How do you rule out obvious chronic prenatal distresses experienced by the mother (and infants) the months before birth because she giving up her infants as factors.

-The very large Adverse Childhood Experiences research concluded that children are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD if they experienced one or more ACEs.

Side Note: I have a relative who adopted two babies about 9 and 10 years ago, and she was actually allowed in the delivery room and they where interviewed and keep in contact with the biological mothers both before and after the adoption.

This is the kind of stuff I am trying to support.

Which is amazing to hear, because this may really help reduce prenatal and post natal distresses. (transcription factors)

Which is the reason why the adoption protocol was changed in those circumstances.

When I was young that would have been unheard of, and am not sure if other states/provinces are as advanced/aware as where she lives.

I think understanding the inherited predisposition is not the only important factor involved, but also possible transcription factors, not only in regards to ADHD but many other health issues that children may be predisposed to.


m

Yes good question. I'm assuming there is a possibility to know whether the mother was drinking or doing drugs but mental stress would be more difficult to quantify. I'm current studies (as opposed to.looking at adoption data retrospectively) you might be able to give to questionnaires to ascertain their mood.

I could be wrong but I can imagine that in a lot of cases a mother who is considering giving up her baby is probably going through a lot of stress either because if the unwanted (or just not feasible) pregnancy or because of the circumstances making her give up her baby or both.

Also.it would be quite difficult to control for distress experiences by a child before the adoption.

We've been thinking about adoption for years now and it seems like in the uk most kids in care were taken away from their birth parents so I yhink it's safe to assume that their environment even before adoption was not very conducive. It's so incredibly sad really. A lot of these kids have just really been given a very rough deal and once they've has a bad start things just seem to get worse.

So yes I guess I agree with you (as everyone else seems to do) that it would be incredibly difficult to rule out environmental influences from twin adoption studies.

mildadhd
05-31-17, 05:25 AM
My father and Mother adopted 3 children, from 3 different mothers. My father has type one diabetes and part of the reason they wanted to adopt was to try and avoid inheriting my fathers type one diabetes. Instead they have 2 out of 3 children, who now have ADHD, etc.

I won't get into the details, but what information we do know about about each of our circumstances fits.

:)


M

mildadhd
05-31-17, 06:55 AM
Thinking about the fact that my parents tried their best to avoid us getting an one condition.

And then us get a different condition, is fascinating to me.

Even when we try to do what what we think is best, the best thing is not always within our control, and the best thing we can do is to keep trying.


M

Little Missy
05-31-17, 06:58 AM
Thinking about the fact that my parents tried their best to avoid us getting an one condition.

And then us get a different condition.

Is fascinating to me, because, even when try to do what what we think is best, the best thing is not always within our control, and the best thing we can do is to keep trying.


M

Such love they had to do so. So Much Love.

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 07:08 AM
Thinking about the fact that my parents tried their best to avoid us getting an one condition.

And then us get a different condition, is fascinating to me.

Even when we try to do what what we think is best, the best thing is not always within our control, and the best thing we can do is to keep trying.


M

I can't speak for your parents but it's not the same I think. Your parents wanted to avoid passing on diabetes but it's not necessarily that they didn't want a child with diabetes or any other condition.

As I said we've been considering adoption and one of my main reasons is that I don't want to take the risk of passing on any of my mental health conditions (sorry fuzzling). It's not that I don't want a child with a mental health problem (well ideally of course I don't. No one wants to see a child suffer) or that i dont want to look after a child with a mental health problem but just that I don't want to pass it on. I dont want to create this problem for a child. I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well. :scratch:

mildadhd
05-31-17, 07:24 AM
I can't speak for your parents but it's not the same I think. Your parents wanted to avoid passing on diabetes but it's not necessarily that they didn't want a child with diabetes or any other condition.

As I said we've been considering adoption and one of my main reasons is that I don't want to take the risk of passing on any of my mental health conditions (sorry fuzzling). It's not that I don't want a child with a mental health problem (well ideally of course I don't. No one wants to see a child suffer) or that i dont want to look after a child with a mental health problem but just that I don't want to pass it on. I dont want to create this problem for a child. I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well. :scratch:

I know my parents love me.

I appreciate you saying.

I know you love Fuzzling12.

My point is even when we try our best.

Not everything is within our control.

Fuzzling12 has parents that try their best either way.

All we can do is try our best.

I think all most parents do.

This distress thing is not an individual issue, it is a social issue.


M

mildadhd
05-31-17, 07:36 AM
We can epigenetically inherit distressful experiences, from back 3 to 5 generations.

Causation our children's inherited phenotypic traits may have little to do with the immediate parents, even when the parents have the condition.

If they adopt they might get another inherted condition instead.

Like me. :D

The odds might be better if you have your own children.

Not discouraging adoption but due to the unavoidable obvious adoption distresses, the odds may be less.


M

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 07:58 AM
We can epigenetically inherit distressful experiences, from back 3 to 5 generations.

Causation our children's inherited phenotypic traits may have little to do with the immediate parents, even when the parents have the condition.

If they adopt they might get another inherted condition instead.

Like me. :D

The odds might be better if you have your own children.

Not discouraging adoption but due to the unavoidable obvious adoption distresses, the odds may be less.


M

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262890/

mildadhd
05-31-17, 08:05 AM
Then there is the fact that some young women (and men) who have ADHD are not prepared to have children, and have to give their children up for adoption.

I do not think the statistic is enough to rule out adoption distresses, even in this case adoption distresses cannot be ruled out as determining factors, but it is possible that some of those children will have a inherited/epigenetically inherited predisposition that may make them more likely to get ADHD, depending on circumstances.

Again I am not discouraging adoption, it is just better to be aware to promote possible prevention, lessening of severity, and/or best early treatment.




M

mildadhd
05-31-17, 08:15 AM
Considering all the facts inherited and circumstances the best thing we can do is stop blaming ourselves and do our best.






M

mildadhd
05-31-17, 09:43 AM
Considering all the facts inherited and circumstances the best thing we can do is stop blaming ourselves and do our best.



Correction

Considering all the inherited and circumstance factors, the best thing we can do is to learn that worrying about our children everyday is normal.

I still worry everyday about my 20 year old son, and if I am being a good parent, and it drives him nuts.

Then I get ****** off, and tell him I won't worry then, and go sulk for a little while.

Only to worry and have this scenario happen all over again the next day.

I am trying not to, it is really hard not to.





M

Lunacie
05-31-17, 10:41 AM
In regards to this specific thread topic question..

Does anyone disagree with the conclusion...that nobody can rule out obvious pre and post natal distressful circumstances of adoption, in adoption twin studies/research, as possible transcription factors in (inherited) genetic expression (in general)?



m

As I understand it, the twin studies were done to rule in or rule out genetic
basis for adhd.

They weren't looking at any other factors, so those were not ruled in or ruled out.

It would take doing a study specifically to look at possible adoption stresses
as a basis for adhd to rule it in or rule it out.

mildadhd
05-31-17, 05:25 PM
As I understand it, the twin studies were done to rule in or rule out genetic
basis for adhd.

They weren't looking at any other factors, so those were not ruled in or ruled out.

It would take doing a study specifically to look at possible adoption stresses
as a basis for adhd to rule it in or rule it out.


There are animal studies.

The Adverse Childhood Experiences studies i posted earlier in this thread, is the best research on humans I have found related to distresses and ADHD. (Of course there are more than one type of ACE, adoption being one)(and does not rule out other non genetic and genetic factors sometimes possibly also involved)

I just started listening/understanding the audiobook "When The Body Says No" by Dr Mate, and there is already some strong human studies/research mentioned, involving emotional distresses/repression that make unhealth medical issues more likely that I want to understand better.




m

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 06:53 PM
We can epigenetically inherit distressful experiences, from back 3 to 5 generations.

Causation our children's inherited phenotypic traits may have little to do with the immediate parents, even when the parents have the condition.

If they adopt they might get another inherted condition instead.

Like me. :D

The odds might be better if you have your own children.

Not discouraging adoption but due to the unavoidable obvious adoption distresses, the odds may be less.


M

Im not sure if this was in response to my post. If it wasn't then please ignore this post.

I'm not considering adoption because I dont want to raise a child with mental health conditions
I'm considering adoption because I don't want to take the risk (again :scratch:) of giving another human being a condition that I know will lower their quality of life. If my adopted child turned out to have a mental health problem that would be different and I couldn't regret having adopted them.

I was thinking maybe it was the same for your parents. They did not want to be guilty of passing on diabetes.

Apologies for the tangent and yes I've realised we've moved on and that this thread is not about individuals but the general situation. :)

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 06:59 PM
As I understand it, the twin studies were done to rule in or rule out genetic
basis for adhd.

They weren't looking at any other factors, so those were not ruled in or ruled out.

It would take doing a study specifically to look at possible adoption stresses
as a basis for adhd to rule it in or rule it out.

OK but i am curious now how do people control for factors like post natal stress causing adhd if they can't control for it in twin studies?

And if they can't then how csn adoption twin studies be used to rule in or rule out a genetic basis?

dvdnvwls
05-31-17, 07:04 PM
OK but i am curious now how do people control for factors like post natal stress causing adhd if they can't control for it in twin studies?

And if they can't then how csn adoption twin studies be used to rule in or rule out a genetic basis?
For a very rough example, two sets of twins are all adopted, and the twins from one birth mother both have ADHD, while the twins from the other birth mother both don't.

Of course real studies use a larger sample size, and study the statistical likelihoods, not just the bare facts.

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 07:08 PM
For a very rough example, two sets of twins are all adopted, and the twins from one birth mother both have ADHD, while the twins from the other birth mother both don't.

Of course real studies use a larger sample size, and study the statistical likelihoods, not just the bare facts.

Yes that makes sense.:lol::doh:

mildadhd
05-31-17, 07:31 PM
Im not sure if this was in response to my post. If it wasn't then please ignore this post.

I'm not considering adoption because I dont want to raise a child with mental health conditions
I'm considering adoption because I don't want to take the risk (again :scratch:) of giving another human being a condition that I know will lower their quality of life. If my adopted child turned out to have a mental health problem that would be different and I couldn't regret having adopted them.

I was thinking maybe it was the same for your parents. They did not want to be guilty of passing on diabetes.

Apologies for the tangent and yes I've realised we've moved on and that this thread is not about individuals but the general situation. :)

The quote below is part of a previous post I made earlier.

Describing changes in adoption protocol, in one State/Province to dramatically lessen both prenatal distresses on the biological mother (and infant) and dramatically reduce post natal distresses on the infant. (As well as the adoptive parents)(and any other children and adults who might be affected by abnormal chronic distresses in general, in some way)

I am interested in these topics because I do not want any guilt when I could have done something for your children, my children or any body else's children who may develop emotional/mental conditions, when I could have promoted the topics throughout this thread to possibly help all children, prevent, lessen severity or provide best early treatment options.

....I have a relative who adopted two babies about 9 and 10 years ago, and she was actually allowed in the delivery room and they where interviewed and keep in contact with the biological mothers both before and after the adoption.

This is the kind of stuff I am trying to support.

Which is amazing to hear, because this may really help reduce prenatal and post natal distresses. (transcription factors)

Which is the reason why the adoption protocol was changed in those circumstances.

When I was young that would have been unheard of, and am not sure if other states/provinces are as advanced/aware as where she lives.



M

mildadhd
05-31-17, 08:15 PM
Trigger warning. (I do not want this post to be removed, but if the moderators think it is best, I would be okay with me)

I also understand how a mother would feel guilty, because they where/are distressed.

But from a preventive perspective, would it not be better, to raise the topics to try help mothers and their children in the future.

It is not like anyone wants or chooses to be distressed.

I am also sure the children of the mother's (that I know), would be better off with their mothers even if exposed to the distresses .

Who else would be better to help their children, if they do inherit similar conditions and nobody can prevent the inherited part of these conditions, or some types of unavoidable distresses of life. (And the reason why their children inherit a condition, may not always have to do with distressed mothers)

There is no way to know for sure, all we can do is try.

Distresses on the mother are not the only factors in these conditions.

Possibly Preventing transcription factor parts, may help some people.

I was suicidal, because I wrongly quite taking a anxiety medication cold turkey, and I know a fantastatic mother, who struggles with these topics, who helped talk to me through that experience.

She was the only person on earth I trusted to ask for help at the time, what would I have done without her.

She literally may have helped save my life.


M

peripatetic
05-31-17, 10:29 PM
I also understand how a mother would feel guilty, because they where/are distressed.

But

no...i think that's where you go wrong. with the "but". you don't understand how a mother would feel. i've been that mother. i feel exceedingly guilty that i persist when i'm mentally ill and around my child. there is no "but". if you truly understand...there is no "but". empathy requires there not to be a "but".

have you seen this video: https://youtu.be/1Evwgu369Jw




from a preventive perspective, would it not be better, to raise the topics to try help mothers and their children in the future.

It is not like anyone wants or chooses to be distressed.this right here...it's not a matter of what's been chosen. i'm distressed. all of the time. i take a buttload of medication and i'm in partial and i'm still distressed about the impact my illnesses have on her. choosing to live is in itself possibly harmful to her...oftentimes, and only now not because my meds got increased...that feels oppressive enough to make me have incredibly strong urges and practice plans.

raising these topics...no...it's not necessarily better. it further divides women who are IN the actual position of caring for an infant and making that choice to give up for adoption or not. and not all adoptions have the opportunity to be ...cathartic, in the way you describe above. what about the woman whose infant is the result of incest or rape? what about the woman who cannot take care of herself and cannot give the baby that time, but wants to give the baby an opportunity? those women are not blameworthy either.

I am also sure the children of the mother's (that I know), would be better off with their mothers even if exposed to the distresses .i'm not sure at all. and it wrecks me to think about it.

Who else would be better to help their children, if they do inherit similar conditions and nobody can prevent the inherited part of these conditions, or some types of unavoidable distresses of life. (And the reason why their children inherit a condition, may not always have to do with distressed mothers)someone not requiring inpatient hospitalization regularly...someone who doesn't have my ailments...someone dependable...someone who doesn't have urges to die all of the time.

the ONLY thing i have on anyone else is that nobody will love my small girl like i love her.

it takes more than love to raise a healthy child, though. love is a great start...but it's insufficient on its own and not all love is even healthy...i'd like to think i love her in a healthy way...i don't physically discipline her out of "love", for example. but i love her enough to recognize where i fall short.

There is no way to know for sure, all we can do is try.

Distresses on the mother are not the only factors in these conditions.
it feels very much like mothers are the ones tagged with playing the role though and i find that problematic on a lot of levels. the main one is not permitted to discuss on the open forum, but where the **** are the men in these scenarios? why is there not fifteen threads on distress of men and that consequence on children? why is it always directed toward/about the mum? this bothers me.


Possibly Preventing transcription factor parts, may help some people.

I was suicidal, because I wrongly quite taking a anxiety medication cold turkey, and I know a fantastatic mother, who struggles with these topics, who helped talk to me through that experience.

She was the only person on earth I trusted to ask for help at the time, what would I have done without her.

She literally may have helped save my life.


Mi am so glad that you had her and reached out. i would be there for you in any way i could and i hope and trust you know that. i'm sorry that you've struggled. that sucks. that super sucks. i hear you and i have nothing but love for you. xx

mildadhd
05-31-17, 10:58 PM
Good bye take care

peripatetic
05-31-17, 11:02 PM
i never said that women couldn't be those things!

and i never said that you couldn't feel guilty about things.

i'm just offering a different perspective. i'm not suggesting you leave. did you read my whole post?

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 11:02 PM
Peri I think, yes, it's true that a baby needs more than love. They also need food, clothes, shelter, warmth,
And medical care but apart from that from everything that I've read and learnt from fuzzling what she needs is truckloads of love and time and attention

peripatetic
05-31-17, 11:06 PM
Peri I think, yes, it's true that a baby needs more than love. They also need food, clothes, shelter, warmth,
And medical care but apart from that from everything that I've read and learnt from fuzzling what she needs is truckloads of love and time and attention

i certainly agree that love, time, and attention are huge. i worry about the time i spend away in PHP...but, yes, i do see your point :)

peripatetic
05-31-17, 11:09 PM
Load of crap

Same group of people do anything to derail this topic.

**** you all

this is the first thread i've participated in in this section in a LONG time. i feel pretty upset at your accusations.

did you even read my *entire* post?

and, no, everybody doesn't feel exactly the same. that's why it's important to listen to one another. i listened to you on your posts above and this one i'm quoting. did you hear me at all? it's hurtful that you react this way to a post i made sincerely, about one i believe you made sincerely, just because we disagree. not that we're "wrong", but we disagree. can't i feel as strongly about a subject and have a different opinion without being told my post is a load of crap and to **** me?


Please erase this thread, and ignore everything said in it,



Takes care

Female shovanistuc pigs

that's really unkind. i hope at some point you read my entire post and think about the person you know me to be and realise how hurtful you're being. if you feel hurt...you can say THAT instead of attacking.

i'm feeling hurt and i want to attack back, but i won't, and not because of the obvious guidelines, but because i know you're not really such an unkind person. please stop being unkind to me and others on this thread that was a "learning experience" until i shared my perspective on ONE post...

i tried to understand and reach out to you in that post of mine and it seems like you completely either ignored that or didn't seem to care about what i was sharing AT ALL, despite my being glad you'd felt comfortable sharing what you did.

i hope you take a step back, as i'm going to, and rethink your approach to hearing another's perspective, even when it's hurtful, and find a way to not lash out.

Fuzzy12
05-31-17, 11:10 PM
Peri I think, yes, it's true that a baby needs more than love. They also need food, clothes, shelter, warmth,
And medical care but apart from that from everything that I've read and learnt from fuzzling what she needs is truckloads of love and time and attention. Sometimes I struggle with the attention bit and that's the bit I need to work on (and that gibes me a lot of guilt) but at this age (I'm trying to find a non soppy way of saying this ) one of their most important needs is ti be loved and that goes a very long way in building a healthy human.

Oops double post. Am falling asleep and pressed sent without realising it.

mildadhd
05-31-17, 11:13 PM
See ya,

namazu
05-31-17, 11:15 PM
Thread temporarily closed for review.

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