View Full Version : I never expected the anger .... I'm desperate


TylerDurdon
06-06-17, 09:07 AM
He's 17 and he has terrible melt downs. He breaks things, he says awful things to us, he screams that he doesn't want to live here anymore.

He will do absolutely anything to avoid any task that is not immediately fun and gratifying.

He sent me a string of insulting text messages at work last week because I took my own car to work and he had wanted to borrow it.

He will not put down his mobile phone. Ever. he hides in the bathroom for 30 minutes at a time when we ask him to do anything.

He will argue for 3 hours about doing something that would have taken him 10 minutes to finish.

He refuses to sit down and have a discussion with me about anything to do with school, employment, college etc. because, as he puts it, "we'll just have a fight" -- but he's always the one who starts the fight to end the conversation. He's actually told me that he does that as a strategy.

Tried 4 different kinds of medication, 4 different therapists from pill-pushers to feel-good therapists.

I'm just coming to sickening realization that he's going to have a pretty tough life and there's not much I can do about that.

His friends are announcing their college choices, talking about their plans, parents are bragging about their scholarships. We're planning a gap year out of sheer desperation and the knowledge that if we spend our savings to send him to college there is a high likelihood that he'll sleep through his classes, ignore the assignments and blame the teachers for his failures.

When you dream throughout their childhood of where they'll go and what they'll become and then you start getting the phone calls from the teachers about the inability to shut up in class, the missed assignments, the shoddy half-completed work -- your hope starts being slowly ground down to nothing.

Thanks for listening.

peripatetic
06-06-17, 10:25 AM
greetings and welcome to the forums,

has he been assessed as having anything apart from adhd?

i'm sorry you're going through this. x

dvdnvwls
06-06-17, 01:15 PM
Welcome to the forum!

You mentioned some therapists being pill pushers - is your son currently taking any ADHD medication?

I have inattentive-type ADHD, and I was confused as a younger teen, because I'd heard about rebellious teenagers and I was not rebellious at all. I was always the mild-mannered kid who didn't have anything to do with the "teenager stuff" that most of my friends did. I listened to my parents the best I could, didn't get in trouble at school, nothing.

But I did have a very... I don't know, a "dark day" in my life, when I was also 17. (I'm over 40 now.) I can't even remember what the argument was about, but I remember with shame that I punched my mother on the shoulder, pretty hard, out of anger at the way that argument was going.

I was a kid with unmedicated (and actually undiagnosed) ADHD. I think it's only luck that prevented me from being worse back then. I probably argued a lot when I was 17 and have just forgotten all the rest of the times - remembered this one because it was so bad.

My mother, in a tiny farm village in the 1970s, had no way of knowing about ADHD.

If you've known for some time about your son's ADHD and have decided against medication, I think maybe your level of surprise is not really warranted.

TylerDurdon
06-06-17, 01:33 PM
he uses terms like depression, but I also know that he spends a lot of time on the internet; I've asked his ADHD therapist to evaluate him for other issues, we're just getting into the normal cadence of regular visits to an expensive private pay therapist. My son absolutely loves talking about himself. When he starts a conversation with us and we suggest that his anxiety might be coming from his terrible time management or organizational skills, his defensive wall goes up and he accuses us of not listening to him. Essentially he just wants to vent and complain and externalize the reasons for his stress "my teacher doesn't like me.. my teacher never told us this was due ... the other kids don't the teacher either.." then we check with the teachers and get a whole different story.

TylerDurdon
06-06-17, 01:38 PM
Yes - he's on Vyvanse for focus, a followup dose of ritalin after school for extra focus and Amantadine which is an off-label use for the drug but is supposed to enhance executive functioning. Part of this is teenage behavioral stuff -- part is immaturity caused by ADHD - just can't figure out how to handle it. My wife and I are exhausted - if they're alone for more than a few hours they're fighting when I come home. I'm lost.

dvdnvwls
06-06-17, 01:47 PM
Anxiety can come from dealing with ADHD, it's true...

If you put it like "because of your terrible skills" though, I mean, what kind of reaction DID you expect? Blaming him for ADHD is not going to solve anything, and in fact blaming him for his symptoms is a textbook example of how parents can turn kids oppositional and defiant. He knows bad time management is part of ADHD and not his fault. If he's blamed for it by someone who ought to know better, he is going to label that person a liar, and he's going to stop listening to them.

mildadhd
06-06-17, 02:03 PM
Hi Tyler,

Thanks for posting, consider the information quoted below and compare it with your son's reactions/behavior that you have noticed.

Your son's reactions' have the combination of ADHD and counterwill, "written" all over them.

Considering what is called "counterwill"*, has helped me tremendously in understanding myself, my family, friends and even people I do not know much better.

Especially people like me who suffer from emotional/mental conditions that can make individual success even more of a challenge.

In this post I am quoting some general information about the term counterwill.

In later posts I will quote/post more specifically about counterwill and AD(H)D

After those posts I will quote/post even more about ADHD and how to "diffusing counterwill"

I now consider the concept of counterwill everyday, especially in my relationship with my son as he strives to be more independent.

I am not a professional, I am speaking as a parent, all information not quoted are descriptions of my own experiences, based on what I have learned having ADHD myself and being a parent, what I have learned in books, audiobooks and videos about ADHD and Counterwill by Dr.Mate and Dr. Neufeld.

I think counterwill is the most helpful concept a parent could know in general, ADHD or not, but especially in regards to a family members who have AD(H)D, simply because having AD(H)D and all the fustrations and misunderstanding that come with ADHD, make motivation, achievements and independance that much harder.


Counterwill is a natural inclination and does not mean there is anything intrinsically wrong with the child.

It is not as if the individual does it; it happens to the child rather than being instigated by him.

It may take the child as much by surprise as the parent.

"It really is simply a counterforce," says Dr.Neufeld.

"The counterwill dynamic is simply a manifestation of a universal principle. The same principle is seen in physics, where it is considered fundamental to keeping the universe together: for every centripetal force there has to be a centrifugal one; for every force, a counterforce."

Like all natural phenomena and all stages in the child's life, counterwill has a positive purpose.

It first appears in the toddler to help in the task of individuating, of beginning to separate from the parent.

In essence, the child erects a wall of no's.

Behind this wall, the child can gradually learn her likes and dislikes, aversions or preferences, without being overwhelmed by the far more powerful force generated by the parent's will.

Counterwill may be likened to the small fence one places around a tender young shoot to protect it from being eaten.

The vulnerable little plant here is the child's will. Without that protective fence, it cannot survive.

In adolescence, counterwill serves the same goal, helping the young person loosen his psychological dependence on the family.

It comes when the sense of self is having to emerge out of the cocoon of the family.

It is a defense mechanism to protect this fragile, threatened sense of self.

By keeping out the parent's expectations and demands, counterwill helps to make room for the growth of the child's own self-generated motivations and preferences.


-Gabor Mate, "Scattered", Chapter "Oppositionality", p.187.


*The term counterwill was originally coined by the psychoanalyst Otto Rank. The description of the concept in this chapter is based on the synthesis arrived at by Gordon Neufeld and is, by his kind persmission, adapted from Dr. Neufeld's lecture series on counterwill.



m

mildadhd
06-06-17, 03:23 PM
Counterwill is natural in everyone.

When ever possible I first gave my son the chance to do things his own way, in general.

By giving him the option, he is more open to asking me for help, receiving my help, or at least considering my help.

In early childhood, everyday I would spare some time, usually at least an hour in the evening, sometimes exploring for a whole day on the weekend, depending on the circumstances, doing what he wanted, and I would follow him along making sure he was safe.

What is amazing, is when using this approach together, as we got older, is sometimes he comes up with better ideas, sometimes I come up with better ideas (that he is willing to try) and sometimes the best idea at the time is a combination of both our ideas.

My son is now in his early 20's and he does not want to hang out as much, but when he wants, I love going to the hardware store, grocery store with him and discussing about the foods, new tools/technology and materials. etc.

He teaches me a lot.



Figuring out what we want has to begin with having the freedom to not want.

"Far from being depraved, counterwill is bequeathed by nature, to serve the ultimate purpose of becoming a separate being," says Dr. Neufeld.

"Counterwill, the dynamic, should not be identified with the child's self. This is really important. It is not the person that we are getting to know when we get to know the resistance. Nature designed the child that way. It is really Nature that has a purpose, not the child."

-Gabor Mate, "Scattered", P 188.


m

dvdnvwls
06-06-17, 04:56 PM
Saying that your son just wants to vent and complain and externalize things: You're on very shaky ground, trying to speak for him in this way.

If others put words into your mouth like that, claiming they know exactly what you're thinking, I don't suppose you're inclined to accept it.

Nobody deserves respect. You don't, I don't, your wife doesn't, your son doesn't. But to be a family, respect is needed - not just from son to parents, but equally from parents to son. Treating him disrespectfully (by dismissing his point of view, or in whatever other ways) is destructive.

I'm not saying you take every word at face value necessarily. He shouldn't take all your words at face value either. You have to cut each other some slack. But basic two-way respect, no matter what, is the only way you can work this. He is going to be disrespectful from time to time. Or let's be honest, a lot of the time - he is 17 after all. You may find yourself being disrespectful toward him sometimes too, because you're human. But it's important that you respect him the way you want him to respect you, because you're his main example.

mildadhd
06-06-17, 10:25 PM
Hi Tyler,

Because I am not sure whether you are interested in the information or not, I decided to posted the chapter information that preceded Dr. Mate's quotes I made in this thread, in another thread in the oppositionality section here at ADDForums. If your interested in learning more about counterwill?

I still have lots of (what I think is) very helpful information to post more about counterwill and ADHD and diffusing counterwill, when I get a chance.


m

Cyllya
06-07-17, 05:45 AM
Here's an underappreciated unofficial ADHD symptom: initiation impairment. I typed a big detailed description up here (http://cyllyathoughts.blogspot.com/2016/10/initiation-motivation-procrastination.html), but the short description is that it's a weird urge to not do things. (This multiplies any other reasons you wouldn't want to do something, e.g. other ADHD symptoms make it hard, it's a legitimately unpleasant task, counterwill, etc.) Not everyone with ADHD has this problem, but it sounds like it's a contributing factor in your son's case, since almost every sentence in your description is about him trying to avoid doing something.

This sounds like a fairly minor problem, because there aren't words to describe how horrible and soul-crushing it is.

I've found medication very helpful yet horribly inadequate. Medication lets me just barely hold a job. Otherwise, I just have to set life up to do as little as possible. I have a college degree, but at age 30, I am not a functional adult. I cannot live independently. I believe that life will get better someday, but that is a completely baseless faith.

I wish I could be more of a success story, because I know it sucks for your son to have this problem and it sucks for you to have a loved one with this problem.

Hopefully you can obtain at least some kind of improvement. I think it would require working together with a solution-oriented mindset, which requires that he trusts you to have both good intentions and good sense. Unfortunately, it seems like when parent-child relationships become adversarial for long time, it gets to where the child views every interaction with the parent though a lens of suspicion, even after the parent changes their behavior. Not sure if some kind of family therapy could help speed up the process of regaining trust? Possible relevant books are
How to talk so that kids will listen & listen so kids will talk (Adele Faber, Elaine Mazlish)
How to win friends and influence people (Dale Carnegie)

(They're similar ideas, but one is more parenting-related.)

Has he always been fairly angry or is this some kind of change? If it's a change, can you think of any other changes in circumstances that correlate with it? Two factors to pay particular attention to:
Medication. Especially since your son is on a fairly unusual combination of three simultaneous dopaminergic drugs. I think there's been very little, if any, research on the effects of a combination of lisdexamphetamine plus methylphenidate plus amantadine, but each of those individually are known to sometimes cause mood problems. That doesn't mean someone shouldn't take such a combination of meds, but I would say it should be approached with even more caution than a more typical treatment plan.
Quantity of expected activities. In my experience, it starts out fairly easy to make yourself do stuff in spite of initiation impairment, but the more stuff you have to do, the harder it gets. Number of classes? Number of class locations? Amount of actual activity during class? Amount of homework or "studying," not only in the amount of time required but in the number of different assignments per night and steps per assignment? Clubs, sports teams, or other hobbies where participation becomes an obligation? Expected household chores, or how complicated the chores are? Job? Work activities within a job? Number of self-care tasks he handles for himself?



When he starts a conversation with us and we suggest that his anxiety might be coming from his terrible time management or organizational skills, his defensive wall goes up and he accuses us of not listening to him.

Gee, I wonder why he would accuse you of such a thing.

Yes, executive dysfunction (including poor time management, poor organization skills, or others) will cause anxiety. That is not a particularly useful or insightful observation in most cases.

Essentially he just wants to vent and complain and externalize the reasons for his stress

Lots of people like to vent. I've never understood the appeal, but I do know that sympathy is usually the only socially acceptable response to someone's vent. (If you cannot bring yourself to act sympathetic but you don't want to start a fight, you can usually get away with something vague and neutral, but you probably don't want to resort to that too often with a family member.)

Caco3girl
06-07-17, 08:40 AM
Honestly, and this will not be a popular response....I would take away privileges. ADHD can cause some issues. I have two kids with it, but what you have there sounds like a spoiled entitled brat who doesn't want the help you are trying to provide. This happens to ADHD kids and non ADHD kids.

He doesn't appreciate what he has....so take it all away. I wouldn't let him have a car, or money, or any other fun thing he likes to do. I would also charge him rent after high school. He doesn't know the challenges of real life....so I would show him. Otherwise he will be in your house for the extended future and letting you know that YOU are the bad person here. You are the parent...you need to parent.

P.S. That texting insults to you because you took your own car is totally unacceptable. What was your punishment to him?

Caco3girl
06-07-17, 08:48 AM
Anxiety can come from dealing with ADHD, it's true...

If you put it like "because of your terrible skills" though, I mean, what kind of reaction DID you expect? Blaming him for ADHD is not going to solve anything, and in fact blaming him for his symptoms is a textbook example of how parents can turn kids oppositional and defiant. He knows bad time management is part of ADHD and not his fault. If he's blamed for it by someone who ought to know better, he is going to label that person a liar, and he's going to stop listening to them.

I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.

Little Missy
06-07-17, 08:51 AM
Honestly, and this will not be a popular response....I would take away privileges. ADHD can cause some issues. I have two kids with it, but what you have there sounds like a spoiled entitled brat who doesn't want the help you are trying to provide. This happens to ADHD kids and non ADHD kids.

He doesn't appreciate what he has....so take it all away. I wouldn't let him have a car, or money, or any other fun thing he likes to do. I would also charge him rent after high school. He doesn't know the challenges of real life....so I would show him. Otherwise he will be in your house for the extended future and letting you know that YOU are the bad person here. You are the parent...you need to parent.

P.S. That texting insults to you because you took your own car is totally unacceptable. What was your punishment to him?

:goodpost:

Little Missy
06-07-17, 08:53 AM
Why would a 17 year old have a phone in the first place? Does he have a job to pay for it?

TylerDurdon
06-07-17, 02:22 PM
I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.
Of course I didn't phrase it that way to him. I was in the room when the therapist (who also has ADHD kids) just told him that he needs to learn to accept help in doing the things that challenge him until he learns to do that himself, like using a planner, putting appointments on his phone, setting an alarm that will get him up etc.

sarahsweets
06-07-17, 02:23 PM
Honestly, and this will not be a popular response....I would take away privileges. ADHD can cause some issues. I have two kids with it, but what you have there sounds like a spoiled entitled brat who doesn't want the help you are trying to provide. This happens to ADHD kids and non ADHD kids.
How do you know he doesnt want help? I get it that he is acting a certain way, but teens are notorious for acting in ways that do not accurately reflect what they really want or think.


He doesn't appreciate what he has....so take it all away. I wouldn't let him have a car, or money, or any other fun thing he likes to do. I would also charge him rent after high school. He doesn't know the challenges of real life....so I would show him.
Definitely agree with no car. Its a weapon. That kind of anger doesnt need a 3000lb weapon. I dont agree with taking away everything that is fun though.

Otherwise he will be in your house for the extended future and letting you know that YOU are the bad person here. You are the parent...you need to parent.

P.S. That texting insults to you because you took your own car is totally unacceptable. What was your punishment to him?
I can imagine it would be hard to punish an angry 17 year old male. What do you suggest? And what happens if he doesnt abide by the punishment?

TylerDurdon
06-07-17, 02:24 PM
Why would a 17 year old have a phone in the first place? Does he have a job to pay for it?
How many 17 year olds do you know who don't have cell phones? Yes, he has a job to pay for it.

sarahsweets
06-07-17, 02:26 PM
I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.

lets suppose what you say is true. All he wants to do is break stuff, he wants no help and refuses help. What then? Should they just throw in the towel? Send him to boot camp or millitary school?

Caco3girl
06-07-17, 02:32 PM
Of course I didn't phrase it that way to him. I was in the room when the therapist (who also has ADHD kids) just told him that he needs to learn to accept help in doing the things that challenge him until he learns to do that himself, like using a planner, putting appointments on his phone, setting an alarm that will get him up etc.

TylerDurdon, I wasn't talking to you I was talking to dvdnvwls when he said he this high lighted part below:

Quote:
<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="6" border="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by dvdnvwls http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1951086#post1951086)
Anxiety can come from dealing with ADHD, it's true...

If you put it like "because of your terrible skills" though, I mean, what kind of reaction DID you expect? Blaming him for ADHD is not going to solve anything, and in fact blaming him for his symptoms is a textbook example of how parents can turn kids oppositional and defiant. He knows bad time management is part of ADHD and not his fault. If he's blamed for it by someone who ought to know better, he is going to label that person a liar, and he's going to stop listening to them.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.

sarahsweets
06-07-17, 02:34 PM
I have a problem with this....while the deficit may not be his "fault" there are ways to adapt, ways to counter balance the deficit....this kid won't try to adapt or help himself. It sounds to me like these parents are trying to talk to their kid, trying to get him help when it's obviously over their head, and he refuses to listen and refuses to even attempt to help himself. That is not on them, that is on the kid. He doesn't want help, he doesn't want to attempt to help himself, and he wants to rant and break things in his parents home because he thinks he is entitled to do that, and that is the problem.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=641396&postcount=18
The 30% rule.

With ADHD, there are a number of parts of the brain involved and each kid has a different mixture of symptoms characterized by a slower development of these areas. Having said that some useful generalizations can be made. In general ADHD can be seen as a deficit in self regulation-self control. These kids have developmental deficits in the ability to resist impulse, stay on focus, connect what they do with the consequences, seeing ahead, planning for upcoming events, following rules and a number of other issues. ADHD kids are seen as more impulsive and having difficulty regulating behaviors and emotions. They do not see as far into the future as their age mates. They can be seen as functioning on a younger age level-immaturity if you would. Be aware that this has little to do with intelligence or achievement. It involves only those areas affected by adhd.

A number of years ago Russell Barkley examined studies looking at the amount of this deficit and he found an average of around 30%.

What this means is that you can take 30% (or a third which ever is easier) off a child's age and this will give you a rough idea how you should be treating this child.

If you have a 10 year old you should be treating him more like a 7 year old. Would you hand a 7 year old a book and tell him to have a report ready in one month? No way! What will happen is that "you" will do the assignment, not the kid. If we expect the child to operate like the normal 10 year old then it is our problem not the child's. What we might do is approach the assignment as you would a 7 year old. Break it down into smaller segments. Have the child read a few pages each day and write a few sentences covering what he just read. Again he has the ability to understand the material. This effects the amount of work that can be done.

The same principle applies to emotional issues. A 6 year old child will be operating more like a child almost 2 years younger. In other words, he will be reacting emotionally more like a 4 year old. Like a 4 year old, he will show his emotions faster and they will be more intense. If you expect him to exhibit an emotional control of a normal 6 year old it is your problem, not the child's. You are expecting the child to behave in a way of which he is not capable. If you expect him to see and react to events coming at him in the future again the 30% rule applies. "Didn't you see that coming?" The answer is likely "No". The child is simply not capable of looking that far into the future.

On discipline, take an 8 year old. He is likely to be operating on the level of a 5-6 year old. If you expect him to follow rules, connect behaviors to consequences, see problems and head them off like a 8 year old, it your problem. If you expect him to do like a 5 year old then you can successfully make it his problem. If you insist on dealing with him as a 8 year old then you will have battles, struggles and not a lot of behavior changes. If you deal with him as you would a 5 years old, then you will probably see some positive changes. This is in your control. Younger kids tend to forget more, goof up more, test the parents more but we do not think much about it because we expect the younger child to act this way. It is when we expect the child to act in a developmentally inappropriate manner is when we get into trouble.

Your child wants to drive at 16. Using the 30% rule, you are letting an someone with the emotional maturity of an 11 year drive your car. Wow! Not a good thing. Many parents link driving privileges to taking medication. Medication can, on some, bring them up to almost normal. This is to a good extent a treatable issue.

The 30% rule is based on unmedicated.

sarahsweets
06-07-17, 02:42 PM
he uses terms like depression, but I also know that he spends a lot of time on the internet; I've asked his ADHD therapist to evaluate him for other issues, we're just getting into the normal cadence of regular visits to an expensive private pay therapist. My son absolutely loves talking about himself. When he starts a conversation with us and we suggest that his anxiety might be coming from his terrible time management or organizational skills, his defensive wall goes up and he accuses us of not listening to him. Essentially he just wants to vent and complain and externalize the reasons for his stress "my teacher doesn't like me.. my teacher never told us this was due ... the other kids don't the teacher either.." then we check with the teachers and get a whole different story.

TIME SENSE IN CHILDREN

Some theory first: The ability to sense and use time is a developmental issue. As our brain grows we begin to see farther into the future, foresight if you would. Adults sometimes plan decades into the future, the four year old none. The frontal part of the brain that pretty much controls this continues to develop to around age thirty. You can see then that kids and teenagers are not as good at this as their parents. If you are over thirty, think about what you can do now that you couldn't do when you were twenty-brain development. If you are under thirty be aware that you will likely get better at it in the coming years.

The young adolescent (twelve, thirteen, fourteen) is somewhere around three days. Your kid can get a book report assignment and while you nag, remind, fuss, complain, and warn; about three days before it is due, he will begin to think about needing to do the report. Trying to get him to think about it much earlier is probably an exercise in futility. You can try to get him to see further ahead but don't expect a lot of success. Note that I said think about it not do it. Starting to read the book the night before is not particular unusual especially with ADHD kids. It is however almost guaranteed to drive parents into a state of abject frustration.

I estimate that college freshman, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, to be about a week to ten days which explains cram sessions, all nighters etc-Time Sense.

Those who go back to school later in life tend to do spread sheets detailing what they need to be doing at any given moment and often cannot understand why their kids could not do this. Now you know why.



Now, ADHD can really disrupt the time sense in a significant way. It can cause a very real and sometimes major defect in the ability to sense time but but more importantly in the ability to use time. What you see is, if you would, "Temporal Myopia": time nearsightedness-a deficit in seeing into the future and responding to upcoming events. These individuals will not react until the event is very close in time often moving into action only when the event has arrived. This helps explain why many adult ADHD'ers are always doing things at the last moment, why always late, why always in a rush. Their lives may bounce from crisis to crises due to the lack of seeing into the future (foresight) and heading off problems. They may tend to react to events only as they arrive-recipe for chaos.

Parents ask their kids "Couldn't you see that coming?" and the answer is probably not. I think the 30% rule (read here) probably applies. These kids use time much like someone about 30% younger. In other words a ten year old probably has the foresight of someone around seven. Kids are not real good at foresight anyway and ADHD can make it much worse.

Another aspect of a lack of time awareness: An ADHD child will be doing his homework and an hour has gone past and nothing much was done. The parent gets upset.

What often happens is that the kid does not have anything resembling an accurate sense of time passage. As far as he is concerned only a short amount of time has passed. This is not willful but a function of ADHD. They have little internal time sense. The trick is to "Make Time Visible". Put a clock on the desk or wherever the homework is done, use alarms to mark time points. At random intervals ask the kid what he is doing right now, focusing or something else.



from:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=649512&postcount=1

Little Missy
06-07-17, 02:44 PM
How many 17 year olds do you know who don't have cell phones? Yes, he has a job to pay for it.

Let me apologize.

I'm older than all of you here, a cell phone in the hands of a teenager texting his father crap over your own car riles me. I wouldn't put up with it. Especially since a 17 year old just totaled my car on her cell phone with an unrestrained child and her dog flew out the window and landed on the pavement she hit me so hard last week.

I'm glad he has a job.

Your life, my life, I shouldn't have commented. I do apologize.

Caco3girl
06-07-17, 02:45 PM
lets suppose what you say is true. All he wants to do is break stuff, he wants no help and refuses help. What then? Should they just throw in the towel? Send him to boot camp or millitary school?

Sarah, I didn't say that's all he wants to do I said he feels entitled to do that. We have heard a lot about him and what he does, but we haven't heard what the parents are doing to attempt to curb this behavior.

What would the average parent do if they received a ranting text from their child about how it was wrong of them to take their own car to work? This "child" feels entitled to act out in this way.

By the way, I have no problem with either of my children having phones. It makes it easier for me to get a hold of them, and no they aren't required to pay for them but there are rules about hours of usage. Also, if there is phone misconduct I have the power to shut off the internet/data portion so it is just truly a phone and a text machine and no longer a small computer hooked up to the internet.

dvdnvwls
06-07-17, 09:35 PM
Deciding that someone who you don't know and have never met feels entitled, based on your own third-hand analysis of someone else's second-hand reports of his actions, is neither valid nor useful.

If you don't know a kid's feelings - or even if you're certain that you do - try asking him. It can bring surprising (and surprisingly good) results.

sarahsweets
06-08-17, 04:54 AM
Sarah, I didn't say that's all he wants to do I said he feels entitled to do that. We have heard a lot about him and what he does, but we haven't heard what the parents are doing to attempt to curb this behavior.

True, but using the word 'entitled' to me goes beyond asking how the parents are handling their kid. I think someone truly entitled would just be entitled. I dont think they would have to have a mental illness or disability, or depression, or be on medication. I think their impairments, if any would be barely noticable, and the glaring issue would be the entitlement, and I just dont see that here. The kid needs help and needs to participate in his own care, but the idea of it being a lack of parenting, or lack of punishment and entitlement is not doing right by what the cause actually is.


What would the average parent do if they received a ranting text from their child about how it was wrong of them to take their own car to work? This "child" feels entitled to act out in this way.

I do not think this is the same thing as an entitled kid demanding a huge sweet 16 bash while driving their Dad's mercedes and staying out all night. I dont think he feels its ok to act that way. People that think their behavior is ok do not generally have the accompanying issues that he seems to have.

By the way, I have no problem with either of my children having phones. It makes it easier for me to get a hold of them, and no they aren't required to pay for them but there are rules about hours of usage. Also, if there is phone misconduct I have the power to shut off the internet/data portion so it is just truly a phone and a text machine and no longer a small computer hooked up to the internet.

I am with you on this one. I just enabled "share my location" on everyone's iphones so now when I want to know where exactly they are they just text me and it Gps's their location and sends it to me with a map.

TylerDurdon
06-08-17, 06:43 AM
It's very interesting, I hand't heard of it before.

TylerDurdon
06-08-17, 06:48 AM
Thanks for apologizing - I think that a lot of people weigh in on these topics when it's truly impossible to understand the dynamics of someone else's situation. I've dealt with condescending inferences from people before who's assessment seems to be that if I really know how to parent, these things wouldn't happen. When I see comments like "I wouldn't put up with it" I know that you don't quote understand what's happening in my life. It's like commenting on a forum for parents with blind children that you wouldn't put up with them bumping into things.

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

TylerDurdon
06-08-17, 06:59 AM
"I can imagine it would be hard to punish an angry 17 year old male. What do you suggest? And what happens if he doesn't abide by the punishment?"

Thanks for hearing what I'm really saying. What do you really do? In fits of anger he's not rationale - if you discuss a punishment then he just says "I don't care." When he finishes the cycle of anger he becomes more rationale and you can have discussions with him about behavior. He's above average intelligence, he's been able to articulate since he was 11 that he understands what he's he's supposed to do, but "in the moment" he just can't control himself. I know that there are choices intermingled with the ADHD, perhaps others have a better perspective on exactly where to slice that situation up into what he can control and what he can't. I was obviously venting when I typed my initial post so I understand that it probably evoked emotional responses in everyone. We had a great day yesterday, controlled the conversation, clarified lots of feelings, and it was like talking to a young adult; when the storm hits again I'll just have to do my best.

Caco3girl
06-08-17, 09:00 AM
I don't think anyone knows instinctively how to parent in every given situation. I also don't think any of us are going to be perfect at it. I also will admit to not knowing your child and only knowing how I would react if my child were to do these things to me.

Could I stop him from breaking things, nope. Could I stop him from texting nasty things to me, nope. Could I make him work on his issues, nope. However, sometimes on this site we focus too much on the disability/medical issues that our kids have and don't focus enough on the abilities that they do have.

Could your son stop himself from going into these rages...it doesn't sound like it. Sometimes people have bursts of emotions that they MUST get out, it's a physical need...but could he get it out onto a workout dummy in the living room, or leave the room and go to the garage and hit a punching bag, or some other such non-destructive thing? I think he could if the options were there and he was taught to recognize the rages.

Sometimes it isn't about stopping the impulse, it's about channeling the impulse.

dvdnvwls
06-08-17, 03:08 PM
"Acting out" is all that's left, if no one heeds your words. "Acting out" is a desperate form of communication for when all else fails. It's also used by people who for whatever reason don't usually talk.

I've certainly "acted out" before, and I hate doing it and I do a very poor job of it.

Every parent knows there are times when a child is hearing but not paying attention. If an intelligent 17-year-old is resorting to stupid behaviour tricks, I'd urge parents to consider that the same thing can easily happen in reverse: parents hearing the kid's words but not paying attention.

ADHD often seriously complicates this picture in several ways - here are a few that I can think of:

- Alexithymia: having feelings but being truly unable to express them; can also include having feelings but himself having no clue which feelings they are. This can be extremely frustrating for the person who has it and for those around him, because on several levels he will not make sense. When a 17-year-old has strong feelings he can't explain, or doesn't even know he has them, generally everyone will end up frustrated and angry, including him.

- Anxiety: Anxiety is constantly very high for most with ADHD. It can be crippling. Anxiety over knowing you're 17 but have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old is huge - and believe me, he knows. Anxiety over being judged not good enough for parents, teachers, and other authorities is huge also. If you had a job where you were put in a probationary period for seventeen years, and you had to attend a performance assessment meeting every single day of that time, you'd understand.

- Working Memory: In ADHD, the part of the brain that you use for putting together a list of instructions is faulty. You can see that there's a list, but you're poor at figuring out how the items on that list fit together - for example, not being able to see why they go in a certain order, not seeing why the order could or could not be changed in certain ways, and not being able to tell which items are more important. Also not being able to perform with "Do A, but keep in mind B" - because "keep in mind" is part of the brain that doesn't work right. The 17-year-old knows that some things don't work for him, but he probably can't explain them because he hasn't studied ADHD textbooks much. His responses can be confusion, frustration, self-blame, blaming others after realizing self-blame is incorrect and unhelpful, anger, ... a broad range.

When parents and teachers don't know these things, or know them but don't act accordingly, the 17-year-old has few options.

Pilgrim
06-20-17, 02:57 PM
I spent 20 years trying to make decisions that I didn't make after high school, and some of them still haven't been made. I just come out of a toxic relationship with my mother and this is what inevitably destroyed it. Both feeling like we were right, standing up for what we believed in, it just turning in to a bloody stalemate. But as the offspring always feeling like I was lectured when all I wanted to be was understood. No one said it would be easy, but the results last a life time.