View Full Version : Unconditioned emotional response system and comorbidities.


mildadhd
06-16-17, 02:21 PM
This thread is inspired by the thread discussion "Co-morbidity identification issue", in regards to psychological terminology and the confusion created using when using subjective terminology discussed in the quote below.


It might help to clarify that "anxiety" is an emotion, not a disorder or condition. Disorders can mess up your emotions, such as by causing anxiety, and disorders that have anxiety as a key symptom are collectively called anxiety disorders. OCD is one example,

I think to me that is an important information which helps me to understand the implications and uses of terminology in psychatry. That understanding is very vital when we read psychatric litrature. " Emotion, condition, disorder " are common words, but significant are the differences in this context. Thanks for Clarifying that factor.



http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1952515&postcount=16





This thread is meant to consider what we do know about the physiology of the homologous unconditioned primary emotional response systems to help us understand all bottom up co-morbidity and all top down co-morbidity better, as well as identify which co-morbity came first and which co-morbity(s) came second.

Please always capitalize 7 terms used to describe primary emotional response systems, they are..

.. the RAGE system, the FEAR system, the SEEKING system, the LUST system, the CARE system, the GRIEF system, and the PLAY system.

Capitalization is essential to differentiate between the basic instinctual genetic behaviors associated with each of the homologous primary genetic unconditioned emotional response systems originating in deeply subcortical areas of the BrainMind, that are at the primary level constant (homologous) in all humans (and all other mammals), and more subjective MindBrain secondary and tertiary terminologies used to describe our individual experiences.

Will focus on any questions about this thread discussion as it proceeds, if needed.

Basically the idea is to start with brain functions from the bottom up considering known constant basic instinctual behavior of each of the unconditioned homologous primary emotional response systems, and fill in any associated secondary and tertiary behavior involved in emotional and mental health co-morbity issues.

(I will not focus on any possible secondary behavior associated with interacting primary emotional response systems, until each primary emotional response system is considered individually first, except for the important fact that general motivation associated with the SEEKING system is always involved in every situation.

This is the first time I have attempted to fill in the blanks and differentiate between both bottom up and top down co-morbidities using this method.

Adjustments my made as we fill in the blanks and learn more.

All thoughts and insight appreciated.



m

mildadhd
06-16-17, 03:03 PM
Definition of a constant in this thread in regards to basic instinctual genetic behavior associated primary unconditioned emotional response systems, is similar the definition of a constant in math.

In general, we are all born with a RAGE system, a FEAR system, a SEEKING system, a LUST system, a social CARE system, a social GRIEF system, and a social PLAY system.(along with each of basic raw behaviors associated)

Considering the much less subjective evolutionary constants, can help us fill in the more subjective variables presently existing in the much more subjective psychological terminology, which was based on observations without much of the biology due to lack of past technology, that now exists.

A fixed value.

In Algebra, a constant is a number on its own, or sometimes a letter such as a, b or c to stand for a fixed number.

Example: in "x + 5 = 9", 5 and 9 are constants.

If it is not a constant it is called a variable.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/constant.html


M

mildadhd
06-16-17, 03:52 PM
Example.

In general, all children feel like playing.

Basically, children do not need to learn how to play.

Basic PLAY is a constant instinctual raw emotional behavior already built into our subcortical brains, like the other capitalized constant basic raw emotional behaviors associated the unconditioned emotional response systems.

If these primary emotional response system become chronically underaroused or overaroused, due to experiencing internal environmental emotional factors inside the brain, and/or, external environmental emotional factors outside the brain, co-morbidity may occur.

Let's pretend that I was born with some type of genetic predisposition that caused my PLAY system to be underaroused if expressed, and I experienced external environmental circumstances that expressed the genetic variable associated with the predisposition.

Having an underactive PLAY system would be the origin of the first (bottom up) commorbidity and a type of depression due to lack of play would be the origin of second commorbidity.




m

mildadhd
06-17-17, 03:06 PM
Primary emotional-affects and secondary emotional-affective feelings

Primary emotions________________Secondary affective-feelings

SEEKING_______________________Enthusiastic
RAGE__________________________[Angry]
FEAR__________________________Anxious
LUST__________________________Horny
Social CARE ____________________Tender and Loving
Social GRIEF____________________Lonely and Sad
Social PLAY_____________________Joyous


Quote video timeline starting approx: 4:20

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=65e2qScV_K8


m

mildadhd
06-21-17, 01:22 AM
(In progress) Help me fill in the blanks in this post, correct this post, etc.. partly about bottom up chronic underarousal and bottom up chronic overarousal of primary emotional response systems and secondary comorbidities


-Chronically underaroused primary emotions___________Secondary affective-feelings


Chronically underaroused SEEKING_______________________Lack of enthusiastic feelings?, Lack of motivation? Type of Depression?, AD(H)D?

Chronically underaroused RAGE_________________________ (____?____) type of depression?

Chronically underaroused FEAR_________________________ (____?____) type of depression?

Chronically underaroused LUST_________________________ Lack of randy feelings?, Type of depression?

Chronically underaroused Social CARE ____________________Lack of Tender and Loving?, Type of depression?

Chronically underaroused Social GRIEF____________________(____?____) (____?____)

Chronically underaroused Social PLAY_____________________Lack of Joy? Type of Depression?





-Chronically overaroused primary emotions____________Secondary affective-feelings



Chronically overaroused SEEKING_______________________Over-enthusiastic feelings? (____?____)

Chronically overaroused RAGE__________________________Irritable?, Really ******-off?, Overarousal of secondary fight response?

Chronically overaroused FEAR__________________________Type of Anxiety?, Overarousal of secondary flight response?

Chronically overaroused LUST__________________________(____?____) Type of anxiety?

Chronically overaroused Social CARE ____________________(____?____) (____?____)

Chronically overaroused Social GRIEF____________________Separation type of Anxiety?, Type of Depression?

Chronically overaroused Social PLAY_____________________(____?____) (____?____)






m

userguide
06-21-17, 05:02 AM
I was trying to make sense out of these equations and you're gonna pay for my coffee...;)

quick question : under/overarousal - what's your definition for those and why do you apply them across
all those 7 primary mechanisms if they're most probably not wired(the mechanisms) in a simple more juice/less juice scheme ?

Side note - is this how psychologists talk about human mind now? It reminds me of the ancient greek concepts from 2500 years ago. A simple model with 5 cogs. Let's see maybe there is a 6th little one and we have a working model.

mildadhd
06-22-17, 04:00 PM
Coffees are on me.

(I usually get hyper for about 5 minutes, then look for a place to fall asleep), another equation to think about?

side note: I typed the previous thread posts on a computer screen , but when I viewed the same posts on a phone screen, the formate appears more mixed up, if possible, view the posts on computer screen at least once. I can't even easily follow the equations on my phone. Will need to figure out how to fix for future posts.

Focusing on changes in secondary behaviors involved in layman definitions of "chronic underarousal or chronic overarousal" of each primary system individually.

To be honest, interestingly, I have not had the motivation to focus and learn the specifics of each systems arousal,appetite, reward, electrical, neurochemical, etc, related subjects until yesterday, when you asked.

I know there is lots of information, I know I need to learn but I never felt I was ready to learn the specifics at that level, until you asked.

Interesting how that works.

I have a copy of "Affective Neuroscience, The Foundations Of Human And Animal Emotions, By Jaak Panksepp", that provides basic information on each of primary emotional response systems, as well as how they are interconnected biologically with each other, and other mechanisms.

Let me get back to you.

When I post threads I usually do not know the answers to the questions, but feel I better understand the topics, after discussing with other ADDForum members.

You have asked some very important questions, I think we can understand, using the 7 unconditioned emotional response systems affective terminology (and associated affective neuroscientific data) as constants.

Up to now in this discussion the scientific data associated with these primary secondary has been vague to say the least.

I need to study more specifically about parts of each of the primary emotional response systems and how they are stimulated, regulated, interact with other systems, internal environment and/or external environments, etc.

Please excuse my layman approach, I really appreciated the help.

In this thread I want to learn to include more in-depth scientific data oriented approach to the present thread discussion, using what is scientifically known about the brain's 7 unconditioned emotional response systems as constants to possibly understand variables involved and help understand questions.

Hopefully my next few posts will make a little more sence and will lean more toward the know scientific data involved, in a working triune brain model, focusing on your questions.






m

mildadhd
06-22-17, 09:33 PM
User guide,

here is a excellent working model of the brain considering...

http://www.simpitalia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/SchemaPanksepp.png

Bottom up

Red = Primary emotional responses systems
Green = Secondary affective feelings
Tertiary = Tertiary (____?____)

Top down

Blue = Tertiary (____?____)
Green = Secondary (___?___)
Red = Primary emotional response systems

So far I have only focused on the relationship between bottom up (red square) 7 primary affects state/processing and (green circle) secondary affective processing.


I want to understand a little better, the neurostatics and neurodynamics of bottom up (red square) primary emotional affects and bottom up (green circle) secondary affective feelings before I consider the relationship between bottom up (red square), (green circle) and (blue rectangle) tertiary processing.

The relationship between top down (blue)(green) processing levels are well discussed here at ADDForums.

Although the relationship between top down (blue)(green) and (red) primary state/processing are not discussed much, yet.


M

mildadhd
06-22-17, 10:33 PM
The figure below focuses more specifically on the CARE/empathic, tender and loving secondary affective feelings and other primary, secondary/tertiary bottom up and top down functions involved in a working model.

http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2007952822/2030523595/gr1b1.jpg


M

userguide
06-23-17, 06:49 AM
Coffees are on me.


To be honest, interestingly, I have not had the motivation to focus and learn the specifics of each systems arousal,appetite, reward, electrical, neurochemical, etc, related subjects until yesterday, when you asked.

I know there is lots of information, I know I need to learn but I never felt I was ready to learn the specifics at that level, until you asked.

Interesting how that works.

Indeed. I relate.
Is that anxiety ? That someone asked and you can't provide the answer?
Or maybe, SEEKING refueled ?




I have a copy of "Affective Neuroscience, The Foundations Of Human And Animal Emotions, By Jaak Panksepp", that provides basic information on each of primary emotional response systems, as well as how they are interconnected biologically with each other, and other mechanisms.

I will look into that when I burn out next time - so thx for the source :)


I like your hopeless quest for understanding human brain :)
But you really believe this 3 squares and 5 arrows is a working model for my mind ?:eyebrow:

Are you trying to insult me or what ? :lol:

mildadhd
06-23-17, 11:19 AM
Indeed. I relate.
Is that anxiety ? That someone asked and you can't provide the answer?
Or maybe, SEEKING refueled ?




I will look into that when I burn out next time - so thx for the source :)


I like your hopeless quest for understanding human brain :)
But you really believe this 3 squares and 5 arrows is a working model for my mind ?:eyebrow:

Are you trying to insult me or what ? :lol:

I do not think it was anxiety of not knowing, more like enthusiasm that you where interested in a particular area of study involving the topics, that I have not studied yet, but have been planning to return to and understand more in depth, now that I have a good idea overall of how my brain develops and works from the bottom up and top down.

Basically i was happy to meet someone who I thought was interested in the topics, instead of ignoring the topics.

I am working on answering your first questions, there is a enormous amount of information for me to review and learn more in depth, to answer accurately.

That is okay because it is the more indepth type of information I was hoping to learn more about in this thread, and your questions gave me a good area to start a more in depth understanding.

I am sorry if you feel insulted, your earlier complex questions gave me the impression that you would be able to interprete what the different symbols and arrows meant and that you had a good understanding of the topics already without me having to spell everything out in long posts.

The figures also have enough information written on them, that you should be able to explain what you think is missing, in general.

Or at least ask more great questions.







M

mildadhd
06-23-17, 10:51 PM
Or maybe, SEEKING refueled ?





The primary dopamine driven SEEKING system inside our brain becomes more stimulated, generating the appetite (general motivation) to go get what we want.

When we get the reward we wanted, the general appetite of the SEEKING system becomes less stimulated, and feels temporarily satisfied.

Because of many physiological reasons, like brain researcher's discovered more than one type of neurochemical reward systems in our mammalian brains'.

Example, primary orphine CARE/empathic system. (See figure in post #9)

The emotional motivational brain researchers changed the primary name of the dopamine reward system to the "the primary SEEKING system"

I think the tertiary feeling of the thought of possibly having a discussion with you considering the bottom up affective terminology as constants along with top down cognitive terminology, filling the the blanks as we consider a working model of the human triune brain, stimulated my primary SEEKING/curious and PLAY/joyous systems.

In other words, maybe the SEEKING and PLAY systems' stimulated felt like a fun quest for friendship/understanding?

Fuel = essential needs?





m

userguide
06-25-17, 06:57 AM
I am sorry if you feel insulted, your earlier complex questions gave me the impression that you would be able to interprete what the different symbols and arrows meant and that you had a good understanding of the topics already without me having to spell everything out in long posts.


This was a joke :) I don't feel offended ;)

I recently noticed, that sometimes I can't see emoticons. Might be device dependent,
I will try to use the "print" versions :)

Besides, I don't know how to prove it, but I think your toolset here is wrong,
and it is going to take you nowhere :)

But I might be wrong :)

mildadhd
06-25-17, 10:18 AM
This was a joke :) I don't feel offended ;)

I recently noticed, that sometimes I can't see emoticons. Might be device dependent,
I will try to use the "print" versions :)

Besides, I don't know how to prove it, but I think your toolset here is wrong,
and it is going to take you nowhere :)

But I might be wrong :)

Could you post what you think the right "toolset" is, so I can compare the parts.

I have not been able to prove Panksepp wrong.

My biggest problem is time it takes for me to learn information that is new to me, but anything I have learned and compared is accurate and that has been fascinating to me.

I might be saying something's wrong presenting Panksepp's theories, but when I compare Panksepp's theory, with other theory, "toolsets" involved are accurate depending on the context or Panksepp is more accurate, considering the parts of the whole functioning brain.

And I think that scares researchers who have considered top down ADHD functions and commorbidities but have not considered bottom up development in regards to the foundation of the mind and bottom up origin AD(H)D

I have been researching your original question in regards to arousal and I think the best way is to learn each system individually in parts, then consider how they work together.

There are also more than one way arousal could be influenced.

That is why I was looking at each system separately in the beginning.

I did mention in the beginning of this thread that I would like to consider each system individually before understanding how they work together.


m

userguide
06-26-17, 06:39 AM
Could you post what you think the right "toolset" is, so I can compare the parts.

I guess it would give me a Nobel Prize if I could :)
Or at least tons of loads of piles of ...


I have not been able to prove Panksepp wrong.


Wrong toolset to satisfy your original drive !== Panskepp is wrong.



My biggest problem is time it takes for me to learn information that is new to me, but anything I have learned and compared is accurate and that has been fascinating to me.


I have the same biggest problem!
So let's give each other some more time :)



And I think that scares researchers who have considered top down ADHD functions and commorbidities but have not considered bottom up development in regards to the foundation of the mind and bottom up origin AD(H)D

Sounds interesting.


I did mention in the beginning of this thread that I would like to consider each system individually before understanding how they work together.


I was actually thinking of this moment when you start putting it together and realize something is missing. I am not saying I know what it is, of course.

mildadhd
07-22-17, 12:44 AM
I would like to add this information to help promote thread discussion.

http://i1.wp.com/the-mouse-trap.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/emotions.png


M

someothertime
07-22-17, 05:55 AM
If these primary emotional response system become chronically underaroused or overaroused, due to experiencing internal environmental emotional factors inside the brain, and/or, external environmental emotional factors outside the brain, co-morbidity may occur.

m

Here is the question mark in this equation. Specifically, I focus on the word aroused.

Where does internalisation/externalisation fit arousal as defined? As a BEHAVIOR that IMPEDES both EXPERIENCE and DEVELOPMENT? INTERNALLY and EXTERNALLY ( cyclical ).

I draw focus to the gap in between the primary and the secondary. And the point that arousal alone is not indicative of Secondary disorders. So, I guess i'm HIGHLIGHTING:

PHYSIOLOGICAL PROCESSING DISORDERS in the EXPERIENCE of DEVELOPMENT.

To move that on in the context of this thread;

WHERE ARE THE KEY KNOWN BREAKDOWNS in DEVELOPMENTAL INTERACTION/PROCESSING WHICH DEFINE INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE.

or in simpler terms;

What leads to overarousal or underarousal?

mildadhd
07-24-17, 01:27 AM
Here is the question mark in this equation. Specifically, I focus on the word aroused.

Where does internalisation/externalisation fit arousal as defined? As a BEHAVIOR that IMPEDES both EXPERIENCE and DEVELOPMENT? INTERNALLY and EXTERNALLY ( cyclical ).

I draw focus to the gap in between the primary and the secondary. And the point that arousal alone is not indicative of Secondary disorders. So, I guess i'm HIGHLIGHTING:

PHYSIOLOGICAL PROCESSING DISORDERS in the EXPERIENCE of DEVELOPMENT.

To move that on in the context of this thread;

WHERE ARE THE KEY KNOWN BREAKDOWNS in DEVELOPMENTAL INTERACTION/PROCESSING WHICH DEFINE INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE.

or in simpler terms;

What leads to overarousal or underarousal?

Inborn temperament and individual circumstances?




m