View Full Version : Is AD(H)D always a morbidity of a mood disorder?


mildadhd
08-10-17, 05:51 PM
Is AD(H)D always a morbidity of a mood disorder/mood condition?







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mildadhd
08-10-17, 07:06 PM
Could AD(H)D be partially caused by different types of anxiety and depression, in early early childhood?

-Chronic distress does interfere with the development of self-regulation?

-Types of anxiety and depression can be chronically distressful?

-The early period of development before the age of 7, is the most environmentally influenced period of brain development?



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aeon
08-10-17, 07:24 PM
By definition, no, it never is.


Cheers,
Ian

mildadhd
08-10-17, 07:34 PM
By definition, no, it never is.


Cheers,
Ian

What definition are you referring to?




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mildadhd
08-10-17, 07:42 PM
Brains are built over time, from the bottom up



-Center on the Developing Child, Harvard University




http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/inbrief-science-of-ecd/









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namazu
08-10-17, 07:51 PM
Is AD(H)D always a morbidity of a mood disorder/mood condition?
When you say "morbidity", do you mean "comorbidity" (a condition occurring at the same time), or do you mean something else?

mildadhd
08-10-17, 08:09 PM
When you say "morbidity", do you mean "comorbidity" (a condition occurring at the same time), or do you mean something else?

Morbidity as in a medical condition/disorder.



In this case..

A disorder partly or directly as a result of another disorder.

A condition partly or directly as a result another condition.

A morbidity partly or directly as a result of another morbidity.








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namazu
08-10-17, 08:20 PM
Morbidity as in a medical condition/disorder.

A disorder partly or directly as a result of another disorder.

A condition partly or directly as a result another condition.

A morbidity partly or directly as a result of another morbidity.
Then are you asking if ADHD is always a result of a mood disorder?

If so, my answer is "no".

There are people with ADHD who do not have any mood disorder (in the technical sense).

There are also people with both ADHD and mood disorder(s) who met the criteria for ADHD long before meeting any criteria for a mood disorder. Mood disorders often emerge in adolescence or adulthood, while ADHD (as currently defined) typically starts in childhood. In some cases, it is possible that there could be some shared underlying cause for both conditions (or a shared diathesis, as daveddd likes to call it), but that doesn't imply that the mood disorder caused the ADHD, or vice-versa.

I think it is also possible that ADHD could lead (indirectly) to mood and anxiety disorders or make them worse due to the stresses it can cause throughout life.

mildadhd
08-10-17, 11:20 PM
I think it is also possible that ADHD could lead (indirectly) to mood and anxiety disorders or make them worse due to the stresses it can cause throughout life.

I do not disagree with your top down perspective.

But I am not sure we share the same bottom perspective or definition of mood disorders/mood conditions, or mood in general.

Example

People are born with a type of mild depression/lack of motivation due to being born with a lower number and density of dopamine receptors.

And dopaminergic pathways originate in the midbrain. (Below the amygdala)

And some dopaminergic pathways "branch", from the subcortical midbrain to the neocortical OrbitoFrontalCortex.

And the brain develops from the bottom up.

So I think AD(H)D could have a bottom up origin.







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namazu
08-10-17, 11:26 PM
But I am not sure we share the same bottom perspective or definition of mood disorders/mood conditions, or mood in general.
Since you said "mood disorders", I assumed you meant those currently defined in the DSM. It helps to have standardized terminology so that we are talking about the same things.

If you mean something else, could you clarify? Do you have a personal definition of "mood disorders"?

In general, I do not have strong reasons to believe that ADHD is solely or primarily the result of negative emotions interfering with development. (I do believe that negative / traumatic experiences can interfere with development, though.)

mildadhd
08-11-17, 06:29 PM
Since you said "mood disorders", I assumed you meant those currently defined in the DSM. It helps to have standardized terminology so that we are talking about the same things.



I think considering standardized emotional-affective neuroscientific terminology, to help best understand (affective) mood disorders/conditions, and can help to improve the accuracy of the DSM standardized terminology.


Can neuroscience be integrated into the DSM-V?

Abstract
To date, the diagnosis of mental disorders has been based on clinical observation, specifically: the identification of symptoms that tend to cluster together, the timing of the symptoms' appearance, and their tendency to resolve, recur or become chronic. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and the International Classification of Disease, the manuals that specify these diagnoses and the criteria for making them, are currently undergoing revision. It is thus timely to ask whether neuroscience has progressed to the point that the next editions of these manuals can usefully incorporate information about brain structure and function.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17704814





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mildadhd
08-11-17, 06:55 PM
In general, I do not have strong reasons to believe that ADHD is solely or primarily the result of negative emotions interfering with development. (I do believe that negative / traumatic experiences can interfere with development, though.)


"Negative emotions interfering with development", and, "negative/traumatic experiences can interfere with development", involve the same systems in the brain, from a primary-secondary affective perspective.

Example,

Secondary fight or freeze-flight distress response systems, are the same thing as primary RAGE and FEAR emotional-affective response systems, focusing on different brain processing levels.

SEEKING/interest
RAGE/fight
FEAR/freeze-flight



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Lunacie
08-11-17, 08:06 PM
I think considering standardized emotional-affective neuroscientific terminology, to help best understand (affective) mood disorders/conditions, and can help to improve the accuracy of the DSM standardized terminology.







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That link is from before the new DSM-IV was released.

ADHD is not considered a mood disorder in the DSM-IV.

People with adhd are more emotionally reactive to events or situations they
encounter.

Mood disorders are distorted or inconsistent with current circumstances.

mildadhd
08-11-17, 08:26 PM
That link is from before the new DSM-IV was released.

ADHD is not considered a mood disorder in the DSM-IV.

People with adhd are more emotionally reactive to events or situations they
encounter.

Mood disorders are distorted or inconsistent with current circumstances.


I am not sure what you mean, if you quote me, maybe I could understand your reply?





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Lunacie
08-11-17, 08:38 PM
I am not sure what you mean, if you quote me, maybe I could understand your reply?





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I did quote you ... post #11.

I'm sorry, I misposted when I wrote that the DSM-IV was released after that
PubMed abstract you posted from was written. That should have been DSM-V.
The abstract from PubMed was released in 2007, the DSM-V was released in
2013. The DSM is what most of us base our definitions on.

mildadhd
08-11-17, 08:53 PM
I did quote you ... post #11.

I'm sorry, I misposted when I wrote that the DSM-IV was released after that
PubMed abstract you posted from was written. That should have been DSM-V.
The abstract from PubMed was released in 2007, the DSM-V was released in
2013. The DSM is what most of us base our definitions on.

Standardized primary emotional affective neuroscientific terminology was not considered in the DSM V, either.

I understand the importance of the DSM.

But I learn a lot more by considering the neurophysiology involved in the observation, than arguing about DSM terminology based on observations alone.

I mean we are focusing on affective moods, that originate from one or more of the 7 unconditioned emotional-affective response systems.

Why not consider standardized affective neuroscience?




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aeon
08-11-17, 09:36 PM
Why not consider standardized affective neuroscience?

Because if you are talking about ADHD, you work within the framework of the DSM, for that is where ADHD is defined and articulated, simple as that.

Cheers,
Ian

Lunacie
08-11-17, 09:58 PM
Standardized primary emotional affective neuroscientific terminology was not considered in the DSM V, either.

I understand the importance of the DSM.

But I learn a lot more by considering the neurophysiology involved in the observation, than arguing about DSM terminology based on observations alone.

I mean we are focusing on affective moods, that originate from one or more of the 7 unconditioned emotional-affective response systems.

Why not consider standardized affective neuroscience?




M



ADHD is not considered to be an affective mood disorder.

Does standardized affective neuroscience challenge that?

mildadhd
08-11-17, 10:20 PM
ADHD is not considered to be an affective mood disorder.

Does standardized affective neuroscience challenge that?

AD(H)D is not a mood disorder.

I never said AD(H)D was a mood disorder.

The affective brain systems mature before the cognitive brain systems.

I am wondering if living with the emotional distresses of having mood disorders can partly cause AD(H)D, before birth and the age of 4-7?






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mildadhd
08-11-17, 10:41 PM
If the chronic emotional distresses of living with AD(H)D can result in top down secondary and primary anxiety, depression and addiction.

Can the chronic emotional distresses of being born and living with mood disorder result in bottom up secondary and tertiary AD(H)D?








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Lunacie
08-12-17, 11:26 AM
Is AD(H)D always a morbidity of a mood disorder/mood condition?

M



When you say "morbidity", do you mean "comorbidity" (a condition occurring at the same time), or do you mean something else?



Morbidity as in a medical condition/disorder.

In this case..

A disorder partly or directly as a result of another disorder.

A condition partly or directly as a result another condition.

A morbidity partly or directly as a result of another morbidity.

M



AD(H)D is not a mood disorder.

I never said AD(H)D was a mood disorder.

The affective brain systems mature before the cognitive brain systems.

I am wondering if living with the emotional distresses of having mood disorders can partly cause AD(H)D, before birth and the age of 4-7?

M


Okay ... I think I've got it now. Before I thought you were telling Namazu
that you did not mean "comorbidity" but in rereading it, I think that's what
you must have meant.

If that's not correct, please clarify.


I assume you're referring to people who are highly sensitive, which you seem
to think leads to the development of adhd. Current research does not show
such a link.

There does seem to be a link between being highly sensitive and mood
disorders such as bipolar and depression.


So in my opinion, for what it's worth, you've got the cart before the horse ...
adhd does not seem to follow mood disorders like bipolar and depression ...
mood disorders like depression and anxiety seem to follow adhd.

Abi
08-12-17, 03:18 PM
The initial post makes no sense in terms of both content and language.

peripatetic
08-12-17, 09:13 PM
Is AD(H)D always a morbidity of a mood disorder/mood condition?







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if by "adhd always a morbidity" you mean comorbid with: no. i have three diagnoses, one is adhd, none are mood disorders. so they are definitely not always comorbid.

if .....you mean the cause of: i see often people with adhd who have comorbid anxiety or depression (which would count as a mood disorder) and suggest their anxiety/depression is the result of (sometimes untreated, almost always misunderstood) adhd if you're asking if adhd causes a mood disorder. i don't know that it works that way ever, but i cannot discount others' experiences who certainly find that applies to their lives, so it sounds like sometimes adhd can bring about depression (mood disorder) and other things (that aren't mood disorders).

if .....you mean caused by: i don't think a neurological issue can be caused by depression/other mood disorders, but one of the *symptoms* of mood disturbance is inattention/inability to focus, among other things, so certainly having a mood disturbance could cause adhd-like symptoms, but i don't think it could "cause" adhd.

i hope that covers your question. x

mildadhd
08-13-17, 09:31 PM
if .....you mean caused by: i don't think a neurological issue can be caused by depression/other mood disorders, but one of the *symptoms* of mood disturbance is inattention/inability to focus, among other things, so certainly having a mood disturbance could cause adhd-like symptoms, but i don't think it could "cause" adhd.

i hope that covers your question. x

Thank You

If emotional pains and emotional distresses of having a top down cognitive disorder like AD(H)D, can cause affective morbidity.

Can emotional pains and emotional distresses of having a bottom up affective disorder like anxiety, cause cognitive morbidity?


(I am using the term morbidity, to clarify between the cause and effect)








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peripatetic
08-13-17, 09:46 PM
I think that emotional disturbance/anxiety could *affect* cognitive processing, but not cause (create) the disorder, ADHD. If ADHD is already present, however, other things could exacerbate the challenges created by ADHD a

namazu
08-13-17, 09:52 PM
Can emotional pains and emotional distresses of having a bottom up affective disorder like anxiety, cause cognitive morbidity?
People with depression or anxiety may experience cognitive impairments (sometimes subtle, sometimes more pronounced).

Whether the cognitive impairment is directly the result of "emotional pains and distresses", or whether it is due to some underlying state that also caused the proneness to emotional pains and distresses is not always clear (and there could be some of both, depending on the situation).

Sometimes these cognitive impairments can include things like difficulty concentrating, which can also occur in ADHD.

There tend to be some differences in the overall patterns of cognitive impairment with different disorders, as well as in the onset and duration.

Some researchers are also looking at symptoms that occur across diagnoses to see if they can understand better how the symptoms occur, and if there are shared mechanisms.

mildadhd
08-13-17, 10:23 PM
I think that emotional disturbance/anxiety could *affect* cognitive processing, but not cause (create) the disorder, ADHD. If ADHD is already present, however, other things could exacerbate the challenges created by ADHD a

Considering bottom up brain processing develops/matures before top down brain processes.

I think, if a baby was born with a affective anxiety disorder (or other affective disorder), emotional pain and emotional distresses caused by being born with affective anxiety disorder, could cause a cognitive disorder like AD(H)D, during the early bottom up critical period of development, but not after.






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peripatetic
08-13-17, 10:35 PM
Affective disorders are mood disorders
Anxiety disorders aren't in the affective disorders category

So I'm confused when you say affective anxiety disorder. Can you give an example?

mildadhd
08-13-17, 10:52 PM
I think that emotional disturbance/anxiety could *affect* cognitive processing, but not cause (create) the disorder, ADHD. If ADHD is already present, however, other things could exacerbate the challenges created by ADHD a


I agree with you, when we are considering development after the age of 7.









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mildadhd
08-13-17, 11:07 PM
Affective disorders are mood disorders
Anxiety disorders aren't in the affective disorders category

So I'm confused when you say affective anxiety disorder. Can you give an example?

Moods are secondary feelings.

Feelings are affective.

I have no idea why DSM does not consider at least some types of anxiety disorders as affective mood disorders?


Biological examples of affective (anxiety) disorders.

-Chronically aroused FEAR/anxiety
-Chronically aroused GRIEF/separation anxiety




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