View Full Version : The two way relationship between bottom up and top down


mildadhd
08-18-17, 10:29 AM
This thread is meant to explore the two way relationship between bottom up and top down brain functions and AD(H)D.

All mammals are close evolutionary relatives with regard to subcortical affect and motivation networks and their vast mind-supporting, consciousness-creating neural networks and chemistries. Although abundant genetic polymorphisms code brain chemistries – from transmitters to receptors to all the intermediate neuronal housekeeping processes – the bottom line is simple: we humans are not special in the types and neurogeographical distributions of our genetically selected brain circuits and their neural chemistries, an understanding of which will lead the way to new psychiatric therapeutics.

For human social neuroscience to have substantial impact on human psychiatric therapeutics, it needs insights from affective neuroscience approaches that can access the actual neural mechanisms of the affective mind. For instance, the fundamental psychological-pain mechanisms that mediate separation-distress in mammals are clearly self-similar (3), potentially allowing us better medical treatments of depression than behavioral and cognitive approaches of the past have provided (e.g., 8-11). So, when we speak about human loneliness and social bonding, our understanding of the underlying raw affects may be illuminated more by animal studies than by human ones (12,13,) a key strategic issue social neuroscience would be wise to consider.

I look forward to a human social neuroscience that becomes fully integrated with the affective neurosciences that have long dealt with issues of psychiatric interest. We now need better two-way communication among the human and animal neurosciences. Our own efforts to link cross-species affective neuroscience findings to fundamental human psychiatric issues can be found in Panksepp 3 and Panksepp and Biven 14.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4102280/


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namazu
08-18-17, 08:06 PM
So that we're all on the same page, it might be helpful to start by defining the concepts of "bottom up" and "top down" processing, as someone requested in another thread.

(The quotes you provided in the OP didn't mention those terms.)

Is there a reference you could recommend that explains these concepts clearly? I've seen those terms being used in different ways in different papers.

mildadhd
08-18-17, 11:04 PM
Bottom Up

Brains are built over time, from the bottom up.

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/inbrief-science-of-ecd/


..emotion-generating brain regions are concentrated in the most ancient medial (midline) and ventral (belly-side) brain areas, ranging from (i) the midbrain, especially a region known as the periaqueductal gray (PAG), or "central gray" as it used to be called; (ii) the hypothalamus and medial thalamus, connected massively to (iii) higher brain regions, traditionally known as "the limbic system," which include the amygdala, basal ganglia, cingulate cortex, insular cortex, hippocampus, and septal regions...; as well as (iv) various medial frontal cortical and ventral forebrain regions (e.g., orbitofrontal cortex) that provide higher controls for emotional reactivity.

Although the concept of the subcortical "limbic system" has been under assault for some time, all would have to admit that it was a great advance over some earlier views (e.g. the James-Lang theory) that situated emotions in higher brain regions.

-Jaak Panksepp/Lucy Biven, "The Archaeology Of Mind". Chapter, "Ancestral Passions", p 2-4.



Top Down

(5:40) ..emotions once provoked get expressed without the top down management that other people would be doing, using the frontal lobe, to reach in, take hold, and fine tune the limbic system..


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-QC4voqmRg







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peripatetic
08-18-17, 11:32 PM
i can't watch videos right now (potentially overstimulating) and i can't wade through links..

could you explain top down/bottom up in your own words in just a sentence or two?

mildadhd
08-18-17, 11:33 PM
When Fear Is Near

Abstract
Humans, like other animals, alter their behavior depending on whether a threat is close or distant. We investigated spatial imminence of threat by developing an active avoidance paradigm in which volunteers were pursued through a maze by a virtual predator endowed with an ability to chase, capture, and inflict pain. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging, we found that as the virtual predator grew closer, brain activity shifted from the ventromedial prefrontal cortex to the periaqueductal gray. This shift showed maximal expression when a high degree of pain was anticipated. Moreover, imminence-driven periaqueductal gray activity correlated with increased subjective degree of dread and decreased confidence of escape. Our findings cast light on the neural dynamics of threat anticipation and have implications for the neurobiology of human anxiety-related disorders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2648508/

When a human's survival is threatened, primitive bottom up emotional management overrides top down cognitive management.



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mildadhd
08-18-17, 11:35 PM
i can't watch videos right now (potentially overstimulating) and i can't wade through links..

could you explain top down/bottom up in your own words in just a sentence or two?

Bottom up = primary feelings.

Top down = tertiary thoughts about feelings.





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peripatetic
08-18-17, 11:37 PM
Bottom up = feelings.

Top down = thoughts about feelings.





M

cheers :)

mildadhd
08-18-17, 11:39 PM
cheers :)

I took my medication as prescribed.



:D

mildadhd
08-19-17, 12:10 AM
So that we're all on the same page, it might be helpful to start by defining the concepts of "bottom up" and "top down" processing, as someone requested in another thread.

(The quotes you provided in the OP didn't mention those terms.)

Is there a reference you could recommend that explains these concepts clearly? I've seen those terms being used in different ways in different papers.

Thanks

I've posted the video and all these quotes in this thread, each in separate different thread discussions in the past.

(Except for the opening post article, quoted in this thread.)

I wanted to post the all the information in this Scientific Discussion Forum, so next time I am asked what do I mean by bottom up and top down, I can refer to this scientific data oriented thread discussion, instead of posting the information over and over in different threads.

In This forum is limited to published/presented scientific research, in a quasi-academic format, with references where appropriate; clear and structured discourse is encouraged

Hopefully we are all more on the same page now, because there is lots more exciting bottom up and related topics to discuss, considering the two way relationship between affective consciousness and cognitive consciousness in regards to the bottom up development of self-regulation and AD(H)D. (As well as all other conditions/disorders)




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mildadhd
08-22-17, 07:20 PM
Although we think of attention as a function of the intellect, its deepest roots are in the subsoil of emotion.

From the evolutionary point of view, this could not have been otherwise.

Imagine a nutritionally challenged saber-tooth tiger charging us: to motivate us in that situation, we don't need intellect but raw fear.

Better to scoot first and ask questions later.

Emotion divorced from thought is hazardous, but human life is equally impossible when thought rules without emotion.

The emotionless Vulcan space traveler in Star Trek, Mr. Spock, may be the television ideal of rationality, but as a human being he couldn't think his way out of paper bag.




-Gabor Mate M.D.,"Scattered", p 124.






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mildadhd
09-10-17, 03:55 PM
Types of Consciouness


-AFFECTIVE -COGNITIVE
-More Subcortical -More Neocortical
-More Analog -More Digital
-Intention in Action -Intentions to Act
-Action to Perception -Perception to Action
-Neuromodulator codes (Neuropeptides)-Neurotransmitter codes (Glutamate, etc)

A major goal of psychotherapy is to promote
cognitive controls of affective processes.

Figure 1.3. A summary of the major differences between brain systems that mediate affective and cognitive processes in the brain. Overall, the affective system controls global states of the brain, while cognitions process incoming information from the external senses.



-Panksepp/Biven, "The Archaeology of Mind", chapter , "Ancestral Passions", p 8.

Some major differences between affective and cognitive brain processes.



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