View Full Version : Cigarettes or dextroamphetamine


shadowzero26
09-12-17, 01:08 PM
Hello.
I have done independent amateur research into ADD since I was young. I have been able to self-medicate with exercise, meditation, writing, coffee, and alcohol. I have avoided smoking simply because I saw that all of the men and women in my family struggled with smoking. I thought if I avoided it I would be healthier. While I have enjoyed some benefit or presumably increased breath support and slightly whiter teeth, I am afraid that nicotine might have a positive effect on the problems I encounter with ADD.

I am very easily distracted. Only after plenty of exercise, intense mental productiveness, and drinking can I feel "clear." I feel most "clear" specifically after playing music for at least an hour and drinking alcohol. Interestingly enough, the effect seems to carry on into the next day, meaning that my "drunkenness" isn't the key contributor. I rate my "clarity" on my ability to communicate verbally and my reading comprehension. Of course, as many self-medicators know, this is a very unreliable method and often cannot be maintained in many circumstances. I would love to be a professional musician/alcoholic. I would probably be very happy. However, I am not at that point in my life and wish for a different fix to help me to do specific things:

Goal setting
Focus and self confidence / commitment of mind.
Verbal Communication
Listening skills

I have never used any drugs other than Ritalin as a child, which was a horrifying experience. Always hungry, could never eat, don't remember waking moments.

I don't know if I would have the same effects today, and my brother had some positive results with Straterra.


My research has led me to assume, (with only a little professional help) that I could benefit from dextroamphetamine sulfate (or some itineration of it, amphetamine sulfate, other), adderal (which contains some), and nicotine, (curious).

I'm going to make an appointment with a physician to try to get some, but in the mean time, has anyone had positive experience with nicotine?

aeon
09-12-17, 03:21 PM
I'm going to make an appointment with a physician to try to get some, but in the mean time, has anyone had positive experience with nicotine?

My experience is that nicotine has a noticeable, but minimal effect on my ADHD.

This is from vaping 1.8% (18mg) nicotine in a 100% VG base.

I smoked for a total of 13 months of my life, but the effects are better from vaping, yet still minimal.

I take dextroamphetamine sulfate for my ADHD, so I have something to compare and contrast against.


Cheers,
Ian

shadowzero26
09-12-17, 03:29 PM
My experience is that nicotine has a noticeable, but minimal effect on my ADHD.

This is from vaping 1.8% (18mg) nicotine in a 100% VG base.

I smoked for a total of 13 months of my life, but the effects are better from vaping, yet still minimal.

I take dextroamphetamine sulfate for my ADHD, so I have something to compare and contrast against.


Cheers,
Ian

Thanks, Ian. Smoking seems attractive because frankly it's cooler and arguably easier. Stepping outside for a drag is easier than locating pills and water. Since we are on the topic, do you mind if I ask the dose you take, and if you have had experience with adderall or other medication?

aeon
09-12-17, 04:06 PM
Thanks, Ian. Smoking seems attractive because frankly it's cooler and arguably easier. Stepping outside for a drag is easier than locating pills and water. Since we are on the topic, do you mind if I ask the dose you take, and if you have had experience with adderall or other medication?

If you are going to pursue nicotine, please vape, and do not smoke.

Iíve been prescribed Ritalin/Concerta (methylphenidate), Focalin (dexmethylphenidate), Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine), and Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine sulfate).

Additionally, as part of a medical study, I have had Desoxyn (methamphetamine hydrochloride).

Iíve never had Adderall.

My current prescription is for 60mg IR dextroamphetamine sulfate per day.


Cheers,
Ian

anonymouslyadd
09-12-17, 04:09 PM
I've noticed a difference using the patch. It's not as strong as the meds, though.

Emre22
09-12-17, 06:34 PM
You can't compare nicotine with ADHD medication. I am a smoker no matter i use medication or not. I use concerta 54mg and comparing concerta's effect with nicotine would be insult to concerta .
Smoking helps little bit but if you want a clear answer

if you give 5 out of 100 to nicotine(it depends on how much and how often u smoke it is it can be 1/100 if u often smoke)
ADHD medicine is 100/100

CharlesH
09-13-17, 01:38 AM
I can't seem to find it, but I recently saw somewhere that Russell Barkley (renowned ADHD expert) said that, unfortunately, nicotine just failed a clinical trial for ADHD.

sarahsweets
09-13-17, 04:17 AM
I was under the impression that there were studies that noted some (if minimal) benefits of nictotine relative to adhd. I think member "bellavita" uses/used the patch for this reason.

shadowzero26
09-14-17, 05:17 PM
I don't think nicotine will be the silver bullet, I am just always curious. I'll try to make an appointment with a physician.

nuvisys
09-22-17, 11:04 AM
Dr Bob Beck has said that the most difficult addiction to 'cure' is nicotine. It is easier to 'cure' other substance addictions like meth or coke.

Pls see my attached info about the CES electronic device for stress, depression, anxiety, insomnia and substance addiction on the 'depression' thread.

I am a user of the CES device for my depression and insomnia. I also practice brainwave entrainment tones on Youtube. As much as possible, I will not use prescription drugs unless necessary, e.g., diclofenac for gout pain. I use tones for my 'hypertension' and had never taken any pharmaceutical drugs for my bp.

aeon
09-22-17, 11:41 AM
Dr Bob Beck has said that the most difficult addiction to 'cure' is nicotine. It is easier to 'cure' other substance addictions like meth or coke.

Yet, when I decided to stop smoking, I just stopped.

I made a decision, and changed my behavior.

Things are only as difficult as you decide to make them for yourself when it comes to choices of what you do.


Cheers,
Ian

namazu
09-22-17, 02:16 PM
Things are only as difficult as you decide to make them for yourself when it comes to choices of what you do.
Some people's experiences are different from yours.

Also, even if you're a "vaper" now, instead of a "smoker", you're still intentionally delivering nicotine to your lungs.



OP, my suggestion would be to not start smoking (nor vaping). Optimize your health (sleep, diet, exercise, etc.) to the extent you can, and see a doctor who's knowledgable about ADHD. Some of the side effects you experienced as a kid could have been due to too high a dose, or a medication that wasn't right for you.

aeon
09-22-17, 05:25 PM
Some people's experiences are different from yours.

Indeed, and they most certainly are.

Also, even if you're a "vaper" now, instead of a "smoker", you're still intentionally delivering nicotine to your lungs.

Yep, but even that is falling away because when I take bupropion, I canít feel it much at all.


Cheers,
Ian

CharlesH
09-22-17, 11:13 PM
Yet, when I decided to stop smoking, I just stopped.

I made a decision, and changed my behavior.

Things are only as difficult as you decide to make them for yourself when it comes to choices of what you do.


Cheers,
Ian

I think nuvisys was making the point that nicotine is addictive. Smoking is not addictive. You're right that vaping is probably a less unhealthy route of administration, but the fact that you merely switched routes of administration doesn't detract from nuvisys's point that nicotine can be addictive.

It's great that you don't have an addiction to nicotine, but that doesn't mean that people who are addicted are so because they neglected to just decide to stop. The whole point of the concept of addiction is that the person cannot stop, even when they try to do so.

There's been research to show that there are likely genetic factors that predispose certain individuals to be much likelier to get addicted, whether it be to alcohol, nicotine, opiates, etc. I'm not asserting that addicts should have no personal responsibility for their actions, or that they wouldn't benefit from changing their mindset, but I do think it's important to acknowledge that the solution is not as simple as merely telling them to chose to say no.

sarahsweets
09-23-17, 08:08 AM
I believe I am addicted to the act of smoking and the nicotine and would love to wake up one day and be able to just stop.

shadowzero26
09-29-17, 03:57 PM
In lab animals, scientists had a very difficult time finding an addiction to just nicotine and often resorted to a cocktail of chemicals. The adage is you don't have a nicotine addition but a nicotine and 500 other chemicals together addiction, which would also explain why so many different coping behaviors exist.

Anyway, update, I'm seeing a psychiatrist PA tomorrow. Apparently, I may pay an arm and a leg for insurance but finding an in group doctor is like finding substance in Hollywood.

aeon
09-29-17, 04:26 PM
Yes, repeated tests of nicotine only has shown that nicotine is about as addictive as caffeine.

So the government has lied to us all these years...no surprise.


Cheers,
Ian

shadowzero26
10-02-17, 02:31 PM
So my visit on Saturday went well. Dr. Dan and I had a great time talking about habits and drugs and he said before I do anything else I should try Rhodiola, which I have had some experience with in the past, very positive experience. I have totally forgotten about it and will be ordering his brand of choice on Amazon tonight: Rosavin Plus.

He also recommended I try a Zinc supplement and he wrote a prescription for tiny 5mg adderall to see if I had the same adverse effect I had to ritalin in the past. If I have no adverse effects then he said the insurance will pay more for another medicine provided there is evidence I tried adderall or ritalin first.

I took one today, at 9:48, and started experiencing dry mouth around 11, other than that, I am not experiencing anything out of the ordinary. I will take another one later then attempt reading an hour after, since reading comprehension is a measurable test I can perform. I feel like I am more interested in music listening today, but it could be incidental. Also, 5mg is super low, and the dry mouth could be from being out in the sun all day yesterday and not drinking enough water.

Any dry mouth from dexadrine?

aeon
10-02-17, 02:33 PM
Any dry mouth from dexadrine?

All the time, but then again, I take 60mg/day.


Cheers,
Ian

Batman55
10-02-17, 11:46 PM
So my visit on Saturday went well. Dr. Dan and I had a great time talking about habits and drugs and he said before I do anything else I should try Rhodiola, which I have had some experience with in the past, very positive experience. I have totally forgotten about it and will be ordering his brand of choice on Amazon tonight: Rosavin Plus.

He also recommended I try a Zinc supplement and he wrote a prescription for tiny 5mg adderall to see if I had the same adverse effect I had to ritalin in the past. If I have no adverse effects then he said the insurance will pay more for another medicine provided there is evidence I tried adderall or ritalin first.


A psychiatrist recommending herbal supplements and/or specific vitamins?

That's new to me, or at least unusual. It's not something I've ever encountered.

At any rate, it's interesting what he recommended. Zinc is a supplement that had a tremendous effect on me--but mostly in a bad way. I'm a low-energy inattentive type, and can always use more energy but zinc went too far in the other direction, it was too energizing and with that my irritability got really bad, and insomnia got really bad.

I've long been interested in trying Rhodiola but since I take an SSRI, it is contraindicated, and I think it's probably better to be cautious.

Little Missy
10-03-17, 06:21 AM
Zinc makes me barf.

CharlesH
10-03-17, 12:28 PM
Yes, repeated tests of nicotine only has shown that nicotine is about as addictive as caffeine.

So the government has lied to us all these years...no surprise.


Cheers,
Ian

To be clear, your implication is that nicotine is not very addictive (rather than than that caffeine is very addictive)? I guess the data speaks for itself. I haven't taken a close look, but it just seems weird to me that there are so many people struggling to quit smoking, whereas you don't see nearly the same amount of people struggling to quit caffeine (nor do those people suffer nearly as much through the process).

What financial or political incentive would the government have to exaggerate the addictiveness of nicotine? It's not a controlled substance or prescription medicine that they regulate, it's freely available to any adult, and there was (and still is) actually a huge financial lobby promoting the country's tobacco industry.

This is complete speculation on my part about people on this thread, but my impression is that there are a lot of people who personally don't find nicotine to be addictive and/or who resent being pressured by others to quit. Obviously, everyone is different, and there are definitely many people who don't find nicotine addictive. But I think the research is pretty legitimate and clear that nicotine carries a particularly high risk for addiction. If the research itself is wrong, then that's a different matter, but I haven't seen anything concrete to that effect.

aeon
10-03-17, 12:44 PM
To be clear, your implication is that nicotine is not very addictive (rather than than that caffeine is very addictive)? I guess the data speaks for itself. I haven't taken a close look, but it just seems weird to me that there are so many people struggling to quit smoking, whereas you don't see nearly the same amount of people struggling to quit caffeine (nor do those people suffer nearly as much through the process).

Nicotine itself is not particularly addictive.

There are hundreds of other chemicals in a cigarette, and some of them are very addictive.

As is the social context of smoking itself.

But for years and years, the government targeted nicotine, and no one knew better because nicotine wasnít consumed in a way other than smoking tobacco, and in turn, no studies were done.

Times have changed, as has the game, as has the data. We know better now.


Cheers,
Ian

CharlesH
10-03-17, 02:00 PM
Nicotine itself is not particularly addictive.

There are hundreds of other chemicals in a cigarette, and some of them are very addictive.

As is the social context of smoking itself.

But for years and years, the government targeted nicotine, and no one knew better because nicotine wasnít consumed in a way other than smoking tobacco, and in turn, no studies were done.

Times have changed, as has the game, as has the data. We know better now.


Cheers,
Ian

I guess what we can agree upon is that more research is needed! If what you're saying is true, then the question becomes what mystery chemicals are in tobacco that cause addiction, and how social habits can reinforce addictive tendencies. People are clearly smoking tobacco because they find some chemical(s) pleasurable. It'd be interesting if nicotine only has therapeutic and/or pleasurable effects, without significant addictive effects.

aeon
10-03-17, 02:15 PM
I guess what we can agree upon is that more research is needed!

Yes, thatís always true.

If what you're saying is true, then the question becomes what mystery chemicals are in tobacco that cause addiction, and how social habits can reinforce addictive tendencies.

These things are well-studied and well-documented.

People are clearly smoking tobacco because they find some chemical(s) pleasurable.

Indeed, and certainly nicotine is amongst them.

It'd be interesting if nicotine only has therapeutic and/or pleasurable effects, without significant addictive effects.

Anything that is pleasurable tends to have some degree of reinforcing effect in human beings, and indeed, most mammals.

So nicotine has some degree of reinforcement...as to whether a person will choose to use it compulsively is dependent upon the nature of the person in question.

It can have pleasureable effects, stimulant effects, anxiolytic effects, and negative effects.

It is also a neurotoxin, with a long history as an insecticide, as well as its derivative chemical analogues.


Cheers,
Ian

aeon
10-03-17, 02:20 PM
Just to note, tobacco addiction is in part fueled by the consumption of whole tobacco alkaloids, which have been used as a constituent of the juice used in vaping by those transitioning from cigarettes.


Thanks,
Ian

Little Missy
10-03-17, 03:43 PM
oh bourgeois!

Chew it baby, chew it. :cool:

shadowzero26
10-03-17, 04:11 PM
From my amateur research, it looks like anything big tobacco or big pharma do makes them money and since all major tobacco products are either prohibitively expensive or meth level addicting they make money by tainting the cheep stuff. Why on earth would a stick of gum cost the same as a pack of cigs? Or a piece of paper laced with freebase nicotine?
The truth is cigs cost 1 cent each but are taxed to hell and the majority of that tax is in the form of incentive to get you to smoke more.
Same with any drug. I can fill a bottle of adderall for $10 but dexadrine will probably cost 10 times as much when it is quite literally 1/4th of the product.

I'm just talking out of my butt now.

Today, I took one adderall at 6:48am. I am just as forgetful and flighty.
At Noon I took two more 5mg totaling ten. My doctor said I could double up.
The drymouth is barely noticeable. My only comment right now is, I was bored at work before, now I am bored and energetic.
I need almost no coffee to stay awake. (still need some)

I find music much more involving than it has been. It could be a phase, but normally I digest music with great hunger, now I am listening more pleasantly.

Reading comprehension is the same. I need some sort of control study. I'll have to try testing during my morning read, which is usually flighty and attentive-less.

Little Missy
10-03-17, 04:50 PM
From my amateur research, it looks like anything big tobacco or big pharma do makes them money and since all major tobacco products are either prohibitively expensive or meth level addicting they make money by tainting the cheep stuff. Why on earth would a stick of gum cost the same as a pack of cigs? Or a piece of paper laced with freebase nicotine?
The truth is cigs cost 1 cent each but are taxed to hell and the majority of that tax is in the form of incentive to get you to smoke more.
Same with any drug. I can fill a bottle of adderall for $10 but dexadrine will probably cost 10 times as much when it is quite literally 1/4th of the product.

I'm just talking out of my butt now.

Today, I took one adderall at 6:48am. I am just as forgetful and flighty.
At Noon I took two more 5mg totaling ten. My doctor said I could double up.
The drymouth is barely noticeable. My only comment right now is, I was bored at work before, now I am bored and energetic.
I need almost no coffee to stay awake. (still need some)

I find music much more involving than it has been. It could be a phase, but normally I digest music with great hunger, now I am listening more pleasantly.

Reading comprehension is the same. I need some sort of control study. I'll have to try testing during my morning read, which is usually flighty and attentive-less.

Welcome to the world of meds. Hit or miss!

namazu
10-03-17, 06:08 PM
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shadowzero26
10-04-17, 05:21 PM
My wife kept waking me up last night, so I only got four hours of sleep.

I woke up at ~4:30 and couldn't fall back asleep (probably should have just slept on the couch)

I did not feel that tired until around 8:30, when I also had the "not enough sleep stomach ache"

Getting to work I felt very fatigued, so I took 10 mg of adderall at 9:52. Shy of an hour later ~10:45 I felt much better. Could have been oatmeal kicking in, could have been workload, probably was adderall. Feeling no pain I went the rest of the morning without problems. At 2:33 was getting sleepy. First time in a couple weeks I felt I could just fall asleep right at my desk. I probably will not take anymore medicine as I want to attempt a full nights sleep tonight.

Perhaps the adderall contributed to my inability to fall back asleep after 4, but I think I never properly wound down last night. I will make sure I exercise and have a relaxing beer tonight instead of a stimulating dirty martini. (btw, this is a love it or hate it combination, but do 2:2:1 vodka, vermouth, olive juice, but swap out vermouth for club soda.)

I think 10 mg will be my normal dose from now on, since the 5mg really only keeps me awake and doesn't appear to offer any other benefits. I've been reading that I might need to "build it up" in my system, since it takes up to 3 days to fully leave the system even without feeling any effects.

shadowzero26
10-06-17, 06:11 PM
Yesterday I took 5mg in the morning at ~9:50 and another 5mg at 5:00pm. I was very tired at midnight.

took 10mg this morning, I didn't notice as much effect as last time when I took 5mg in the morning before taking 10 mg afternoon. I will take 10mg again tomorrow, but next week I will start by taking 5 mg in the morning and another 10 mg after noon, then reverse that dosage. I don't know that I would need more than 15mg to get the mental acuity associated with taking the 15 mg in one day in the past.

I suspect diet and sleep is negatively effecting my mood. I am working out everyday, however, and I feel like the adderall is giving me pain relief and endurance.

shadowzero26
10-07-17, 01:24 PM
Yesterday I got my rhodiola in the mail. Most people say 30 minutes before you eat is okay, so I ate eggs at ~7:15 and took the Rhodiola at 8:30. Then I ate my second breakfast at 930 on the way out the door. at 10 I took 5 mg of adderall. I noticed some effects within minutes (could be imaginary), but the normal acuity and alertness associated with takeing 10 mg after lunch started at 11:07 and continued for an extended time.

The Rhodiola seemed to have a positive effect on my energy by 9:50, which should be around the expected reaction time.

I will be off work for a few days, and will update probably on tuesday if I don't have anything intelligent to ad.

I have some ashwagandha that I will be trying as well.

shadowzero26
10-19-17, 05:17 PM
This week has been extremely busy. Everyday I am swamped. Good test.

I have been very tired. Taking it at around 10am seems to last until around 7-8, or later.

I have noticed that if I take adderall, but then go a day without it, the following day I write way too fast and I can barely read it. Typing is a little different. I might make less mistakes when I have adderall, which kind of makes sense, but I'll have to test it.

I'm always stomach grumbling hungry 2 hours after taking adderall. I also drink a lot of water and retain urine longer. I need to remember to take more frequent bathroom breaks.

Planning is going well. I do seem to be able to focus much longer on tasks than I was, and I am not as drained. Yesterday I did not take any adderall and I worked myself to brain failure by mid afternoon, whereas when I take adderall I haven't been at that point until late in the evening.

I am making an appointment with my doctor to ask to have the dosage upped to 10mg.