View Full Version : O.D.D?? Oppositional Defiant Disorder


scbagrl
08-04-05, 06:58 PM
Hello Everyone,

I am new here and have looked around abit but didn't see anything on this subject. My son has ADHD and has been on a couple different medications, just started a new one, Medadate..so with the new school year having just started I am crossing my fingers. Anyway..my son visited with his grandparents for a week over the summer and I got a call from her suggesting that my son also has O.D.D. and is sending some books on the subject. From the ADHD books that I have read some say that these two "disorders" go hand in hand.

Is anyone familuar with O.D.D? I just can't figure out if his behavior is puberty related, ADHD related, kid being a kid related and now I have a new one to contend with..the Oppositional Defiant Disorder. :eek:

Any help is appreciated.

adhdxyz
08-04-05, 07:25 PM
Welcome to the forum scbagrl. You're at the right place.

My 12 year old son is on Metadate. His diagnosis is adhd, ocd, mood disorder and learning disabilities in math and reading.

When he was 3, he was kicked out of every preschool and daycare in our area and I was told to bring him back when he was properly medicated. We started the holistic/homeopathic route. Then introduced Ritalin in addition to a homepathic remedy. Then just Ritalin. Then Dexatrine. Then Ritalin again. Then Metadate.

He was on Metadate a few years. In June we wanted to try him on Adderall because my husband and I both started Adderall with great results. My husband is add and I am adhd. My son did very well for a few weeks on Adderall. At the same time, we were lowering his Respirdal because it causes him to gain weight. (Respirdal is for behavior).

We are not sure if starting the Adderall or stopping the Respiral caused a noise tic to surface but after several days of a constant tic, we went back to Metadate and upped his Respirdal back up.

We went to the doctor this past Monday and he upped his nighttime Clonidine because that too helps with tics. (It also helps behavior issues.) We haven't seen an improvement with his noise tic yet but we still have another week or so until school starts.

My son does not have a diagnosis of ODD but his mood disorder issues may be similar. One minute he's flying off the handle because he can't find something and a minute later he's helping set the table, cutting tomatoes, and he actually surprised us and hung up crete paper and a sign that said Party at our house. This just happened an hour ago for dinner. We can never tell from one minute to the next how he will be.

As my mom tells me constantly, he was given to us for a reason. Not sure what the reason is, but it's gonna be big. He'll probably discover a cure for cancer or something. Who knows.

Good luck.

scbagrl
08-05-05, 11:49 AM
So is this something that needs to be "diagnosed" and treated or is this something you deal with along with the ADHD? Are you happy with the Adderall, my Dr. didn't want to put my son on it, she said that she thought he would have better results with a Ritalin based product, he did really well on the Ritalin, but with the increase and needing to take it 2 and 3 times a day she felt that the Medadate was the way to go.

adhdxyz
08-05-05, 12:06 PM
scbagrl,

First of all, you are very lucky to have grandparents that would take your son for an entire week. My 12 year old son has never gone anywhere except to my sisters house and that's just for the night. A week would be heaven.

I typed odd into the forum search engine and pages and pages of info came up. Go head and try that. I am not familiar with how odd is diagnosed.

As far as Adderall, my husband and I like it but my son is sticking with Metadate for the time being.

scbagrl
08-05-05, 12:41 PM
Yesterday I received the books him grandmother sent, so I will start reading those to see what they say, she said when she read the checklist my son had all of them, poor kid.
Thank you for your assistance with this, I will do a search and see what it has to say.

mctavish23
08-05-05, 01:20 PM
ODD is a diagnosed condition that needs treatment via individual & family therapy.These days, ODD isn't usually seen as the primary problem, at least not around here at our community mental health center.

It often occurs with ADHD Predominantly Hyperactive-Impulsive & ADHD Combined types.When that happens, ODD is the secondary problem.

If you wanted to get really technical about it, I suppose you could classify it as a type of mood disorder. Obviously tho, it's a behavioral diagnosis.

adhdxyz
08-05-05, 04:34 PM
In addition to my son's adhd and ocd, I have mentioned possibly ODD and Bipolar to my son's doctor in the past. He said that a better diagnosis at this time would be "mood disorder". This is in my son's IEP because some of the things he does is not necessarily adhd, but ocd or mood disorder. It's important that the doctor give you a written diagnosis that also carries over to the IEP.

My son does not purposely defy authority or anything like that. That's what I have always considered ODD but when he gets mad, he doesn't care whether he's taking it out verbally on a child or an adult. If you are in his space when he is upset, you will know it.

Good luck on your ODD research and please share your knowledge.

mctavish23
08-05-05, 06:27 PM
Please keep in mind that the term "mood disorder" is used for depression.Affective mood disorder ususally implies Bipolar disorder.

scuro
08-06-05, 01:08 AM
Subjective observation...but I see the ODD/ ADHD combination so often that they seem joined at the hip. Only ever saw one case of a diagnosis of straight ODD...and he has gone into depression so he is a mutt now. At work, I see ODD typically as just a different shade of ADHD.

Imnapl
08-06-05, 01:26 AM
At work, I see ODD typically as just a different shade of ADHD.
That's interesting. I've known several kids who were correctly assessed and diagnosed with just O.D.D..

scuro
08-06-05, 01:44 AM
This kid was gifted too...

fiona1
08-16-05, 04:50 AM
scbagrl, my daughter has ADHD and ODD she is 7 and the looks of a little girl that butter wouldnt melt in her mouth but theres another side to her she is vindictive, annoying (on purpose) arguementive and can be a real cow and since there is no medication for ODD there is a great disapline programme called 1 2 3 magic and that it is i cant believe how something so simple works but when we put it into action i realized i wasnt yelling at her anymore there for she wasnt acting back you give them a warning by saying there name and thats 1 then if they continue the unaceptable behavour you say thats 2 then again if they continue thats 3 "take 5 and go to your room. Nothing else can be said and when they come out of room stillnothing can be said eg(i told you not to do that ect) this can be used for any child but was reccomended for kids with ODD i use iton both my kids 7 and 3 and i only get to the count of 2 now sometimes it hits 3 but things are alot better the book or video is well worth it

jlscott252
08-16-05, 09:05 AM
I have a son, that has ADHD combined, and ODD. He also has IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder). With the ODD, they are argumentative, talk back, are defiant about rules, and doing what they are told. They'll negotiate, and they can be manipulative at times, and try to play on against the other. My son's ODD is pretty bad, and they listed him as having a conduct disorder.

karennerak
08-23-05, 12:33 PM
Hello...

I have 3 of my 5 children diagnosed with ADHD and CONDUCTS DISORDER..
They all take Concerta for ADHD, but there seems to be no medication to help with their Conducts Disorder (Individual and Family Therapy hasn't done a thing for the lads!).

My 10 year old Son has Respiridone for his violent behavior... It does work to a degree!

I've been Diagnosed with ADHD and Chronic Depression, but i feel, that i too have some sort of Mood Disorder?

Anyone know of any online test i can do, about Mood Disorders, to test myself ? .. For my own curiosity.

Karen :eyebrow:

mctavish23
09-04-05, 03:47 PM
When a child's acting out behavior goes beyond the bounds of the 4 of 8 symptoms required for substantiating an 313.81 ODD diagnosis, you're left with 312.9 Disruptive Behavior Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (NOS) and the 312.8 Conduct Disorders;with either childhood onset or adolescent onset.The last one is a bit of a misnomer, as it includes symptoms appearing after the age of 10.

Like anything else, the earlier the behaviors appear, the worse it usually is.

Here's the diagnostic criteria for both ODD and Conduct Disorder (s).Please keep in mind tho that for a child with ADHD, that is the primary problem, as it came first.
Where I become concerned is when schools want to focus more on the behavior problems, as opposed to what's helping create the problem.

All this is from the DSM-IV desk reference, pages 68 (ODD),66-67(Conduct Disorder). The dx of Disruptive Behavior Disorder NOS is on p. 69.It's really a "catch all" category for behavior problems that do not meet the criteria for either of the other two.

Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD):

A. A pattern of negativistic,hostile and defiant behavior lasting for at least 6 months,during which four (or more) of the following are present:

1)often loses temper
2)often argues with adults
3)often actively defies or refuses to comply with adult rules and requests
4)often deliberately annoys others
5)often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
6)is touchy or easily annoyed by others
7)is often spiteful and vindictive

NOTE: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level.

B. The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic or occupational functioning.

C. The behaviors do not occur exclusively during the course of a Psychotic or Mood Disorder.

D. Criteria are not met for Conduct Disorder, and, if the individual is past 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

312.8 Conduct DIsorder :

A. A repetitive and persistent pattern of behaviors in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following criteria in the past 12 months,with at least one criterion present in the last 6 months.


AGRESSION TO PEOPLE OR ANIMALS:

1) often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others

2) often initiates physical fights

3) has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat,brick,broken bottle, knife or gun )

4)has been physically cruel to people

5) has been physically cruel to animals

6) has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g.,mugging,purse snatching,extortion,armed robbery)

7) has forced someone into sexual activity


DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY :

8) has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage

9) has deliberately destroyed others property (other than by fire setting )

DECEITFULNESS OR THEFT :

10) has broken into someone else's house,building or car

11) often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., "cons" others)

12) has stole items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)

SERIOUS VIOLATIONS OF RULES :

13) often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions,beginnig before age 13 years

14) has runaway from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lenghty period)

15) often truant from school, begining before age 13 years.


B. The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

C. If the individual is age 18years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Specify type based on age :

CHILDHOOD ONSET TYPE : onset of at least one criterion characteristic of Conduct Disorder prior to age 10 years;

ADOLESCENT ONSET TYPE: absence of any criterion characetrisitic of Conduct DIsorder prior to age 10 years.


Specify severity :

MILD : few if any conduct problems in excess of those required to make the diagnosis AND conduct problems cause only minor damage (e.g.,lying, truancy,staying out after dark without permission)

MODERATE:number of conduct problems and effect on others intermediate between "mild" and "severe" (e.g., stealing without confronting a victim, vandalism)

SEVERE: many conduct problems in excess of those required to make a diagnosis OR conduct problems cause considerable harm to others (e.g.,forced sex,physical cruelty,use of a weapon,stealing while confronting a victim, reaking and entering ).


312.9 DISRUPTIVE BEHAVIOR DISORDER NOT OTHERWISE SPECIFIED (NOS) :

This category is for disorders characterized by conduct or oppositional defiant behaviors that do not meet the criteria for Conduct Disorder or Oppostional Defiant Disorder, but in which there is clinically significant impairment.


I hope this helps some .Please notice how the term "clinically significant impairment" permeates thru all of these. Just like with ADHD : Impairments in major life actitivites are what help define a "disorder."

One of the biggest risk factors for unmedicated ADHD kids is invlolvement in the criminal justice system,as medication helps reduce impulsivity.

Good luck and take care :)

mctavish23 (Robert)

Shawn9
09-11-05, 02:42 AM
wow. another label they have created. i wonder what pills they will give for this one.

scuro
09-11-05, 07:16 AM
wow. another label they have created, i wonder what pills they will give for this one.

Yeah...another label. Why don't you take care of kid with conduct disorder for a weekend. Better yet, be a special education teacher and work with kids like this day in, day out for a decade.

It's a pattern of behaviour very easily identifable to those who see it every day. Just like other disorders, like..say..BiPolar, OCD, Schizophrenia, or Autism.

To date there are no pills so I guess that would ruin the often quoted Scientology theory which states that disorders are invented to make new markets for the Pharmicutatical companies.

mctavish23
09-11-05, 03:08 PM
First off, ODD has been around a long time.

EVERY diagnosis in the DSM is evidenced based (supported by research).The current DSM-IV TR includes the latest round of ongoing research on the diagnoses.

TR stands for "Text Revison." That's where the research supporting (or not) is discussed.

If a diagnosis isn't still supported by the research, then its pulled.

There are NO MEDS for ODD. According to Russ Barkley, a child with ODD alone (pure ODD) generally outgrows it by ages 7 -8.

However, it is VERY rare to find a kid presenting with only one problem these days.

The prevailing notion is that the ODD behavior is an artifact (caused by) of the ADHD.


The original research study on the use of stimulants on behavior was done in 1937.At that time, a Rhode Island physician named Bradley gave a group of behavior problem kids benezine (dexedrine) for headhaches ( at least I think it was for that ).

What happened is that thier behavior improved.


Every one of these is empirically based.

Wheezie
09-12-05, 03:03 PM
Sarcasm is not an acceptable means of communication in a support forum.

Please refrain from making antagonistic comments.

jlscott252
09-14-05, 08:09 PM
There are no pills, for ODD or conduct disorder. Taking care of a child with ODD or a conduct disorder, is very difficult. :eek: I have a son that has ADHD combined, ODD but seems to be heading toward a conduct disorder, and IED.



wow. another label they have created. i wonder what pills they will give for this one.

centaurmyst
09-28-05, 10:42 PM
Subjective observation...but I see the ODD/ ADHD combination so often that they seem joined at the hip. Only ever saw one case of a diagnosis of straight ODD...and he has gone into depression so he is a mutt now. At work, I see ODD typically as just a different shade of ADHD.


My 14 year old son was diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder when he was about 10 years old. He doesn't have any other conditions...no ADHD or other disorders. My son is incredibly intelligent...too smart for his own good at times, extremely difficult on his bad days but what is most remarkable about him is that when he chooses to be, he can be in complete control of himself...IF it suits him. School is easy for him. He taught himself to read when he was 5 and to multiply at 6. By the 2nd grade he was reading books adults would typically read. He still will read any book he can get his hands on...repeatedly if he likes them. He's never had any problems focusing and he's very calm, calculating and in no way hyperactive. I'd have to disagree about ODD being a different shade of ADHD. I'd be more inclined to believe that in cases of ADHD that perhaps the inability to pay attention and follow directions tends to be mistaken for opposition and defiance when it's actually due to the inability to focus. What I see in my son is not behavior he can't control, because he can when he wants to. It's more of a case where if he is bored he feels the need to create conflict and excitement by manipulating those around him. He's quite good at it, too. It's almost as if (with my son, at least) that ODD is more of a personality disorder than a conduct disorder. From what I understand it's very rare for a child to have only ODD, so I'm not sure how much of an opportunity there has been to really study the Disorder in and of itself. Part of me wonders if ODD might actually be Sociopath Personality in a child...or perhaps a predisposition to it.

scuro
09-28-05, 10:54 PM
These days, ODD isn't usually seen as the primary problem, at least not around here at our community mental health center.

It often occurs with ADHD Predominantly Hyperactive-Impulsive & ADHD Combined types.When that happens, ODD is the secondary problem.


Good point. Take care of the ADHD needs and the ODD is often more managable. Let this person flounder and watch the ODD mushroom like Hiroshima 1945.

scuro
09-28-05, 11:07 PM
My 14 year old son was diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder when he was about 10 years old. He doesn't have any other conditions...no ADHD or other disorders. My son is incredibly intelligent...too smart for his own good at times, extremely difficult on his bad days but what is most remarkable about him is that when he chooses to be, he can be in complete control of himself...IF it suits him. School is easy for him. He taught himself to read when he was 5 and to multiply at 6. By the 2nd grade he was reading books adults would typically read. He still will read any book he can get his hands on...repeatedly if he likes them. He's never had any problems focusing and he's very calm, calculating and in no way hyperactive. I'd have to disagree about ODD being a different shade of ADHD. I'd be more inclined to believe that in cases of ADHD that perhaps the inability to pay attention and follow directions tends to be mistaken for opposition and defiance when it's actually due to the inability to focus. What I see in my son is not behavior he can't control, because he can when he wants to. It's more of a case where if he is bored he feels the need to create conflict and excitement by manipulating those around him. He's quite good at it, too. It's almost as if (with my son, at least) that ODD is more of a personality disorder than a conduct disorder. From what I understand it's very rare for a child to have only ODD, so I'm not sure how much of an opportunity there has been to really study the Disorder in and of itself. Part of me wonders if ODD might actually be Sociopath Personality in a child...or perhaps a predisposition to it.


An excellent post. Honestly 99.9 % of the ODD I have seen is part of ADHD. Yet that one kid...he was gifted, and used his talents mostly in a negative way. What motivated him? Money. When I had an interview with him I left the room. I came back and there was what I believe to be, one of his pubic hairs on the table. Sweet as pie to me but he could get into serious trouble. For instance, he stole the plastic fetus's in the display case of our Catholic school. That's a big no no at our school. It was cleverly done.

In the end, by grade 11, he had no good friends and became even dependent on his sister. The school work had become difficult and he never ever had to work before in his life. His father and him always fought and the mother was in the middle. As he got into more trouble and he actually started failing, the rifts grew and the mother started to buckle a little. The sister left for college and he crashed. We never saw him in school again. This type of kid needs the best sort of coach and advocate. They need unconditional love from at least one person because they are tolerated but in the end so utterly rejected by society.

centaurmyst
09-28-05, 11:23 PM
An excellent post. Honestly 99.9 % of the ODD I have seen is part of ODD. Yet that one kid...he was gifted, and used his talents mostly in a negative way. What motivated him? Money. When I had an interview with him I left the room. I came back and there was one of his pubic hairs on the table. Sweet as pie to me but he could get into serious trouble. He instance, he stole the plastic fetus's in the display case of our Catholic school. That's a big no no at our school.

In the end, by grade 11, he had no good friends and became even dependent on his sister. The work was become difficult and he never ever had to work before in his life. His father and him always fought and the mother was in the middle. As he got into more trouble and he actually started failing, the rifts grew and the mother started to buckle. The sister left for college and he crashed. We never saw him in school again. This type of kid needs the best sort of coach and advocate. They need unconditional love from at least one person.

My son is motivated by money as well. Luckily, where we live he is able to have a job at 14. He works at Wendy's. His behavior over the summer was 100 times better than it normally would be thanks to him working and not being bored. I often say that my son is going to make a lasting mark on the world. It will either be a wonderful mark or a horrible one...and it yet remains to be seen which way he's going to go. So far he's doing well in school...but all it takes is for one teacher to handle him the wrong way and it could turn around. Despite the fact that he doesn't even have to try...if one of his teachers chooses to try to win a battle of wits and will with him he will put more effort into doing nothing out of spite than it would take him to get straight As. Luckily, he is in highschool this year and the teachers tend to treat the kids more like adults and less like children. That's going over well with him. I also met with the staff before school began and begged and pleaded with them to PLEASE listen to what I tell them about handling him properly.

He's not in therapy but has been in the past. Unfortunately, I can't find a therapist that's craftier than he is. He outsmarts every one of them and makes sure he lets them know it, too. He just ends up getting them to take him to skate parks or out to eat and gets them talking about THEIR home lives...lol. He's not abusive to animals in any way and he's very judgemental of anyone who steals and he's opposed to drugs. I figure that will all come in handy as long as he continues believing those things. In fact, he's judgemental of everyone, except himself, of course. ;)

With how he loves to argue I tell him he should be a lawyer...he could wear anyone down, lol. On one hand he's delightful and on the other he's diabolical. What a combination...

I can still laugh and at 39 I still don't have any gray hairs, so all in all I think we're doing okay. :D

Jaycee
09-28-05, 11:50 PM
It's more of a case where if he is bored he feels the need to create conflict and excitement by manipulating those around him. He's quite good at it, too. It's almost as if (with my son, at least) that ODD is more of a personality disorder than a conduct disorder. From what I understand it's very rare for a child to have only ODD, so I'm not sure how much of an opportunity there has been to really study the Disorder in and of itself. Part of me wonders if ODD might actually be Sociopath Personality in a child...or perhaps a predisposition to it.<!-- / message -->
One of the things that is common with some ADDers is that they tend to be beligerant and start arguements...especially those unmedicated. The theory that I read behind this is that agueing produces adrenalin which produces dopamine which is the brains natural stimulant that tends to settle ADD down. So if we're bored or out of sorts we start an arguement and bam instant natural drug supply.
I'm personally not so sure that ODD isn't something that is generally comorbid with ADHD. It tends to be all about control issues and attention seaking behaviors.

centaurmyst
09-29-05, 12:58 AM
One of the things that is common with some ADDers is that they tend to be beligerant and start arguements...especially those unmedicated. The theory that I read behind this is that agueing produces adrenalin which produces dopamine which is the brains natural stimulant that tends to settle ADD down. So if we're bored or out of sorts we start an arguement and bam instant natural drug supply.
I'm personally not so sure that ODD isn't something that is generally comorbid with ADHD. It tends to be all about control issues and attention seaking behaviors.

All I know is that my son definately has ODD based on a thorough pscyh evaluation but doesn't have any other disorders or any learning disabilities at all. I do know a 16 year old boy who has ODD, ADHD and has the violent outbursts on occassion (IEP?)...and his ODD is quite different from my son's. The other boy doesn't seem to have any real control over himself. My son has almost too much control over himself. The other boy is very reactive where my son is extremely calculating in his behaviors. There's a very clear difference in how the disorder manifests itself. The arguing and defiance is the same, but based on what I see in my son, when it's only ODD there seems to be the ability to turn it on and off at will. That doesn't seem so much the case in kids with ADHD. That's why I wonder if perhaps ADHD can have it's own symptoms that mimic ODD but is really just ADHD.

RebeccaA
10-01-05, 05:14 PM
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My son is 13 years old. He has been seeing a therapist off and on sinse he was 8 years old for Oppisitional and defiant behaviors. He has not been "formally" diagnosed with ODD but rather with anxiety and is on Effexor. The Effexor has helped with his anxiety greatly but he still cannot sleep alone in a room and has other fear issues. He meets almost every criteria for ODD and the last "counselor" agreed with me that he probably has it. We just started with a new therapist- who seems hesitent to label ODD because he only displays the behaviors in the home- at school he is an A student, respects teachers and other authority figures and is a complete angel with his friends parents, etc. This has been so frustrating because no one can believe how he is at home with his family. But I read that some ODD kids CAN have great behaviors outside the home, so I am convinced. My husband and I are trying to follow allof the recommended parenting techniques for children with ODD.
I love my child fiercely (he is the oldest of 3) but I don't "like" him much of the time. We don't lkike to ground him for the weekend because we don't want him stuck here at home- we want him to go to friends houses, etc so we can have some peace in the house. Doesn't that seem terrible? But it's true. He is nervous, high-strung, mouthy, unconcerned about anyone's feelings....he torments his siblings (always adding that he's "joking" after teasing them).... he isn't violent in the "mean" sense of the term- rather getting physical with his borther and sister in a "playing around" way- giving them giant wedgies, flicking them in the heaqd, flinging spit at them, tackling, getting them into headlocks- etc., while at the same time saing he was just "kidding around"....... we have a strict rule for him to keep his hands off of them, but he still does it. The list goes on.
I just need a place to vent, to meet others in a similar situation.
Thanks,

mctavish23
10-01-05, 07:37 PM
ODD doesn't have to occur in more than one setting to substantiate the diagnosis.

All you need is meeting 4 out of 8 symptoms of defiant, negativistic and hostile behavior for a period of at least 6 months.

A rewards based behavior managment charting/home token economy works well for behavior problems of all types, as well as hyperactivity.

A great reference is : The Parents Guide to Attention Deficit Disorder...by Stephen McCarney & Angela Marie Bauer.


Good luck.:)

mctavish23 (Robert)

jlscott252
10-01-05, 09:24 PM
Question..How do you know, if ODD is turning into a conduct disorder? He's had some signs of conduct disorder in the past, but it is getting worse with him. The ODD went from bad, to worse. He hits me, is really mean to his brother, has been really mean to our cat..trying to scare her. We've punished him, and we yell at him EVERY time, but it isn't working. He has tried conning me several times, into trying to pay me to do his homework. He even told his brother, that he'd pay him to get in trouble. He was afraid of his dad, but has become more gutsy. In the past, He has stolen my keys out of my purse before. I caught him, as he ran out, and locked the car, put it in the ignition, and started the car. I was SO scared. Locked us out of the house 2 times. He tests us constantly. He said that he is fooling around, when his teacher isn't looking, and sees how much he can get away with. He's off the meds, because it stunted his growth, but we're considering putting him back on. He was in therapy, but they stopped covering our insurance. Does this sound like conduct disorder????? Please advise!Thanks!!

mctavish23
10-01-05, 11:09 PM
Physical aggression is not part of ODD.

You need 3 symptoms from each of the following categories: Aggression to people and/or animals,Destruction of property,Deceitfulness or theft and Major violations of rules.

Within those categories are : physical cruelty to people or animals, fire setting,stealing while confronting a victim,use of a weapon,breaking and entering, truancy, staying out w/o permission, running away from home onvernight at least twice,lying to obtain goods ("cons" others), forcing someone into sexual activity.

I can't answer specific questions on line.

However, I can post the criteria for you to look at.

scuro
10-01-05, 11:10 PM
Aggression to people and animals:

often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity


Destruction of property:

has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage has deliberately destroyed others' property (other than by fire setting)


Deceitfulness or theft:

has broken into someone else's house, building, or car often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., "cons" others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking andentering; forgery)


Serious violations of rules:

often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period) is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 year

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

If the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

http://www.psychologynet.org/conduct.html


I don't know if your child would meet this critera. Stunting of growth seems the smaller issue here. Here is Dr. Russell Barkley on growth;"Also notice this. There is no effect on bone growth or adult stature in most AD/HD children. The effect is mainly a little bit of weight loss during the first year, often recovered in the second year. There’s a very small subgroup of AD/HD children who do have some weight gain problems".

What I have personally noticed, is that some of the most hyper kids are small. You don't see as many tall super hyper people. I'm scratching my head trying to think of one.

jlscott252
10-02-05, 09:51 AM
Thank you for replying, Mctavish. He is meeting the criteria for 3 symptoms, for conduct disorder. We've also noticed, that he tries to deceive us, and tries to play one against the other, for personal gratification. We were doing a wrap-around with him for a while, because he was talking about setting the electical wires in house on fire before, wanting to hurt himself, and he was getting in these rages that were distructive. He was throwing things, and breaking things.

Thanks again!




Physical aggression is not part of ODD.

You need 3 symptoms from each of the following categories: Aggression to people and/or animals,Destruction of property,Deceitfulness or theft and Major violations of rules.

Within those categories are : physical cruelty to people or animals, fire setting,stealing while confronting a victim,use of a weapon,breaking and entering, truancy, staying out w/o permission, running away from home onvernight at least twice,lying to obtain goods ("cons" others), forcing someone into sexual activity.

I can't answer specific questions on line.

However, I can post the criteria for you to look at.

jlscott252
10-02-05, 10:05 AM
Thanks for replying, scuro.

The weight issue has been worrisome, for us, with putting him back on the meds. He was on the meds for 2 years, and he hasn't been able to gaining weight. He lost a little, but hasn't been able to regain what he lost. He was always on the 5th percentile for his weight, but fell below, and the ped. and the psychiatrist were really worried about this. His ADHD is more on the severe side, and with the ODD and probably conduct disorder, we're really considering putting him back on the meds, at least for the school day.

He has been begging us to home-school him. We had a 504 plan set up for him last year, and they haven't implemented it yet, this year, so he isn't getting the added help that he needs. I just received a note home, that he's missed 5 assignments in school.

In regard to the conduct disorder, he hasn't done the breaking and entering, sexual activity and running away, but he does fit a lot of the other criterias.

Thanks again for the replying!




Aggression to people and animals:

often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity


Destruction of property:

has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage has deliberately destroyed others' property (other than by fire setting)


Deceitfulness or theft:

has broken into someone else's house, building, or car often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., "cons" others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking andentering; forgery)


Serious violations of rules:

often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period) is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 year

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

If the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

http://www.psychologynet.org/conduct.html


I don't know if your child would meet this critera. Stunting of growth seems the smaller issue here. Here is Dr. Russell Barkley on growth;"Also notice this. There is no effect on bone growth or adult stature in most AD/HD children. The effect is mainly a little bit of weight loss during the first year, often recovered in the second year. There’s a very small subgroup of AD/HD children who do have some weight gain problems".

What I have personally noticed, is that some of the most hyper kids are small. You don't see as many tall super hyper people. I'm scratching my head trying to think of one.

scuro
10-02-05, 10:20 AM
ODD and Conduct disorder are on a spectrum. You go from ODD to Conduct disorder. It doesn't really matter that he fit the criteria, it matters that things look to be getting worse.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for help on many fronts. Starting with him, he probably isn't happy with himself, doesn't like who he is. You folks are probably exhausted, worried, in need of a plan. The school is probably just containing him, keeping things stable.

Look for specialists in the field. You can do this by word of mouth of other parents who may be in support groups. There may be a specific message board online or a community support group. Your school board should be another resource. Special Ed has a chain of command and the higher you go up the board, the more they know. At the board also are specialists. I'm sure they would give you advice. Your Dr. may also be a good source of information. Then there are books and the internet....read. Hopefully someone on the board can steer you in the right direction. Basically what you need is a plan that is proven to work. A plan that will work at school and home and is seamless.

Then find supports for your family. Does, he or anyone in your family need a chance to unload, vent, or cry. Counselling should be considered. Also don't forget that you need a break. Find relatives, anyone that will allow you to get out of the house so that you can something like go to the movies and dinner and relax a little here and there. You should also look for possibilities of getting away for a day or two.

Hope this helps a little and I hope others on the board can provide further assistance.

jlscott252
10-02-05, 10:30 AM
Your advice was excellent. Thank you. He was diagnosed with ODD, but said that he had traits of the CD. You are right, it is on a spectrum. Things are getting worse, with him. Especially the defiance, and the aggression towards us, and our cat.

I am going to call his special ed teacher tomorrow, and see if we can get the 504 implemented. If that doesn't work, I am going to meet with the school board.

You are right, we do need a break. I can imagine, that this is really difficult for him as well. I don't want his self-esteem to be affected.

Thanks again for the advice, scuro!



ODD and Conduct disorder are on a spectrum. You go from ODD to Conduct disorder. It doesn't really matter that he fit the criteria, it matters that things look to be getting worse.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for help on many fronts. Starting with him, he probably isn't happy with himself, doesn't like who he is. You folks are probably exhausted, worried, in need of a plan. The school is probably just containing him, keeping things stable.

Look for specialists in the field. You can do this by word of mouth of other parents who may be support groups. There may be a specific message board online or a community support group. Your school board should be another resource. Special Ed has a chain of command and the higher you go up the board, the more they know. At the board are also specialists. I'm sure they would give you advice. May also be a good source of information. Basically what you need is a plan that is proven to work. A plan that will work at school and home and is seamless.

Then find supports for your family. Does, he or anyone in your family need a chance to unload, vent, or cry. Also don't forget that you need a break. Find relatives, anyone that will allow you to get out of the house so that you can something like go to the movies and dinner and relax a little here and there. You should also look for possibilities of being away for a day or two.

Hope this helps a little and I hope others on the board can provide further assistance.

mctavish23
10-02-05, 10:58 AM
Stuck between the two is 312.9 Disruptive Behavior Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (NOS).

Simply put, you have more symptoms that go beyond the necessary 4 of 8 for ODD, but fall short of the 3 for CD.

Often times, the whole issue of ADHD gets clouded over by the intensity of the behavior problems.

Actually, the behavior problems are artifacts of the ADHD;and not the other way around.

I believe that Section 504 Plans are wonderful in scope and intent. However, my experience has been that they don't have enough "teeth" in the Accomodation Plan;compared to an IEP.

Realistically, it's very difficult to get every teacher to consistently apply the needed accomodations.

More over, if there's more than one child on such a plan, it can be overwhelming to the teacher.

In a "perfect world," every teacher uses a multi-sensory approach that tries to cover all the various learning styles in the room by teaching to their strenghts.

I wish you luck.:)

jlscott252
10-02-05, 01:16 PM
Question..he has the aggression towards people, aggression towards animals, destruction of property, conning others, use of a weapon, breaking and entering (he broke into our car and tried to start it), deception, refusal to follow rules. These are daily symptoms. Are these all enough for a diagnosis of CD??. He has more than 3.Things seem to be getting a lot worse with him, behavioral-wise.

We have a 504 plan, but they aren't implementing it. I am waiting for the special ed teacher to call, but I am wondering if we can use a IEP instead. I know realistically the teacher has a lot of children to teach, and it is hard for the teachers to consistently apply the accomodations. I am wondering if we should put him back on the meds, to make it easier on he and his teacher.

The hard part is, that on top of the ADHD symptoms that are noticeable, we have the behavioral issues, which seems to be compounding the problem.

Thank you for replying!




Stuck between the two is 312.9 Disruptive Behavior Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (NOS).

Simply put, you have more symptoms that go beyond the necessary 4 of 8 for ODD, but fall short of the 3 for CD.

Often times, the whole issue of ADHD gets clouded over by the intensity of the behavior problems.

Actually, the behavior problems are artifacts of the ADHD;and not the other way around.

I believe that Section 504 Plans are wonderful in scope and intent. However, my experience has been that they don't have enough "teeth" in the Accomodation Plan;compared to an IEP.

Realistically, it's very difficult to get every teacher to consistently apply the needed accomodations.

More over, if there's more than one child on such a plan, it can be overwhelming to the teacher.

In a "perfect world," every teacher uses a multi-sensory approach that tries to cover all the various learning styles in the room by teaching to their strenghts.

I wish you luck.:)

mctavish23
10-02-05, 02:17 PM
I'm sorry but I can't answer specific individual questions like that.

Passing info.on to the therapist and/or psychiatrist is always helpful.

For ADHD, an Other Health Impaired IEP makes the most sense, as it can cover the ADHD related impairments such as doing the work but forgetting to turn it in, not being prepared for class, not finishing work on time,etc.

Crybaby1898
10-02-05, 03:36 PM
hey i have odd

scuro
10-02-05, 07:38 PM
Here is a message board specifically on Conduct disorders, on first glance it looked good. Let me know if it is, if you spend some time there.

http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi


I'm not sure how it works in the states but I'd have your son identified and on an IEP in a flash, at our school here in Canada. He would fall under the catagory of Behaviour and recieve a school based identification. The IPRC and IEP would be just as binding as it would be in the states. Accommodations that I could think of that would be useful off the bat would be reduced workload, sitting near the front of the class, assigning only doable chunks of work during class time...the list could go on and on. I don't buy excuses why things can't be done. This is in the best interest of the child, remember school staff are getting paid. Your son has to go there, his needs should be met.

scuro
10-03-05, 08:09 AM
Barkley states in Taking Charge of ADHD; "A full program as it should be conducted by a professional is detailed in my text Defiant Children: A Clinician's Manual for Parent Training.

With a possible CD child, there is a good chance that things will get worse not better. Time to plan now. A consistent proven program is the first place that I would begin as a parent. It will be one of the few things that will impact his behaviour over time.

jlscott252
10-03-05, 09:06 AM
Scuro,
Thank you so much, for the link. I was on the CD message board for a little while, and added it to my favorites.

Your help is greatly appreciated! :)




Here is a message board specifically on Conduct disorders, on first glance it looked good. Let me know if it is, if you spend some time there.

http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi


I'm not sure how it works in the states but I'd have your son identified and on an IEP in a flash, at our school here in Canada. He would fall under the catagory of Behaviour and recieve a school based identification. The IPRC and IEP would be just as binding as it would be in the states. Accommodations that I could think of that would be useful off the bat would be reduced workload, sitting near the front of the class, assigning only doable chunks of work during class time...the list could go on and on. I don't buy excuses why things can't be done. This is in the best interest of the child, remember school staff are getting paid. Your son has to go there, his needs should be met.

queenbear5
10-18-05, 06:51 AM
My son is 10 years old. He is on Stateria 60mg. once a day. I am very worried about him. He has ADHD and ODD. And now from reading this I believe he may have a Conduct Disorder or IDD. I really do not know who to contact. My Sons principal has threatened my Son that if he did not stop causing trouble he was going to turn him over to the police. My Son has been exspelled from school twice already this year. He keeps getting into fights. Look I am very concerned about my Son I do not want him to be took away from me. I love him and will do anything to help him. Please advise.

Queenbear5

scuro
10-18-05, 04:39 PM
Quick solution here...contact the people who did the original diagnosis and ask them if they can reassess based on new info. Then ask for help and see if they can suggest where you could get help.

Scattered
12-12-05, 10:01 AM
Welcome to the forums Queenbear5,

I'm sorry for the rough time you're going through right now. Dr. Barkley has some good material on working with ODD and Conduct Disordered children. His book Taking Charge of ADHD is good. He also wrote Your Defiant Child:Eight
Steps to Better Behavior. There is an ADD Warehouse with lots of books about anything related to ADHD on line where you can order books at www.addwarehouse.com (http://www.addwarehouse.com) or call 1-800-233-9273. Look through their catalog and perhaps you'll find some good information.

I also encourage you to get back in touch with the diagnosising doctor and ask for help or a referral to a specialist for help. Hang in there and be sure and get support for yourself too!

Scattered

shay_brandy
09-20-07, 02:30 PM
diagnosed when he was 4.5. He is now 6. Its only getting worse every year dealing with new teachers...having to teach them all over again about ODD....

what is the deal with teachers these days?

shay_brandy
09-20-07, 03:09 PM
but ODD is enough. there is no meds for this. only parental education. he also is gifted. no learning disabilities.

Crazygirl79
09-20-07, 07:53 PM
Hi There.

My younger brother whose in high school has mild signs of ODD, he's been to a child specialist who agreed that there is a mild ADD/ODD issue but since it's not interfering with his academics or social life he didn't see the need to medicate or otherwise treat him.

This is a real diagnostic issue and it can co-exist with ADD/ADHD along with other conditions and on it's own as well and is sure to become more of an issue in puberty as this boy would be undergoing the normal hormonal changes along with trying to find his identity and so on.

With K, there was recent issues of swearing and speaking disrespectfully to Mum he would call her a f**king b**th and so on Mum kind of lost her temper and shoved him into his room and he replied "Is that all you've got" in a aggressive tone with this Mum went on to ring Juvenile Aid Bureau (This is a police department in Australia that deals with Juvenile offenders and deals with youth issues) and they gave her this number of a youth and family serivce, she called it and they were going to come out and K threatened to "take them on and knock them out" Mum is often worried that he will hit her as he's made threats of violence before.

At the moment K is back to behaving a little better, he's still doing well at school, he's also doing ok with his job and his social life but he and Mum have up's and down's from time to time, compared to some kids with ODD K isn't that severe and he's usually manageable.

I would assume there are support groups that you can go to and meet other parents dealing with this issue?

Good Luck
Selena:)
Hello Everyone,

I am new here and have looked around abit but didn't see anything on this subject. My son has ADHD and has been on a couple different medications, just started a new one, Medadate..so with the new school year having just started I am crossing my fingers. Anyway..my son visited with his grandparents for a week over the summer and I got a call from her suggesting that my son also has O.D.D. and is sending some books on the subject. From the ADHD books that I have read some say that these two "disorders" go hand in hand.

Is anyone familuar with O.D.D? I just can't figure out if his behavior is puberty related, ADHD related, kid being a kid related and now I have a new one to contend with..the Oppositional Defiant Disorder. :eek:

Any help is appreciated.

Fishman33
08-26-09, 08:42 AM
Parents of oppositional defiant children (http://www.thetotaltransformation.com) may need to look in to a child behavior modification program to get a handle on the behavior.