Drugs, broad term which covers the spectrum from asprin to heroin. I see so many posts about people having trouble getting medicated properly or it is to costly for them to get help. What I dont see is anyone standing up and saying, you know what i am a full grown person with a functioning brain and I should be allowed to make any and all decisions regarding what i put into my body. Have we been so brainwashed by the Government that you guys really believe that the laws surrounding prescription and non prescription drugs are right and just. I was under the impression that freedom was the mantra on which this country was founded. I belive that all drugs should be legalized. I also belive that health care should be free for all. Why, simply because no one, no matter how many guns they have should be able to tell me what to do with my body or when to do it, or if i have this or that or any other reason. Where is the outrage that a corrupt system decides when, what, where, and if you are allowed to injest a substance. Where will things have to get before people wake up?
Pith

Drugs, broad term which covers the spectrum from asprin to heroin. I see so many posts about people having trouble getting medicated properly or it is to costly for them to get help. What I dont see is anyone standing up and saying, you know what i am a full grown person with a functioning brain and I should be allowed to make any and all decisions regarding what i put into my body. Have we been so brainwashed by the Government that you guys really believe that the laws surrounding prescription and non prescription drugs are right and just. I was under the impression that freedom was the mantra on which this country was founded. I belive that all drugs should be legalized. I also belive that health care should be free for all. Why, simply because no one, no matter how many guns they have should be able to tell me what to do with my body or when to do it, or if i have this or that or any other reason. Where is the outrage that a corrupt system decides when, what, where, and if you are allowed to injest a substance. Where will things have to get before people wake up?
Pith


I believe your wrong. Many addicts are not in the right frame of mind to begin with and are a danger to society when hopped up on some narc. The statistics of violent crime in abusers is incredibly high and that is not even counting petty theft and robbery.

what are the specific drugs you are refering to?
is crystal meth one of the drugs you advocate for legalization ?do know any successful users of that drug ?
how about pcp -
how about Lsd -
Crack -

any of the above addicts of those drugs you can spot a mile away -you know them- slurred speech ,slovenly,thieves ,jobless

or were you talking about Grass ?

What I dont see is anyone standing up and saying, you know what i am a full grown person with a functioning brain and I should be allowed to make any and all decisions regarding what i put into my body.

I am grown and have put all sort of stuff in my body through out my life time. realistically if you can afford it you can buy what ever you want and do with it what you please. However I do not think things like crack, herion, or LSD should be legal and sold over the counter.

It is the goverments job to up hold the priniciplas of the majority!!!! The majority would prefer "hard drugs" not be legal.

I do not believe the goverment is doing a good job in reflecting what the majority want however I do NOT believe I am "brain washed".

I have a brain and know how to use it. When I wanted to party down I did just that when I wanted to stop with help I did!!!! Please do not refer to me or any one else who doesn't share your prespective as stupid, brain washed or any other name. I am most presuaded by results, the result of using crack, herion, crystal are ?????? NOT GOOD at least not the many "results" I have seen!!!!!

Yes there are drugs that are definitly bad for you, dont do them. And what good has Heroin done? Where it avalible to doctors maybe some people dying of cancer and aids would spend there last days on earth with a little relief. Meth only came into existence because of the lack of drugs avalible that come from the very ground we stand on. I would rather see those who suffer from cancer be able to get the relife that they need. And as far as what you concider "hard" drugs to be, I belive that if access to certian drugs was legal then there would be no market for cheep black market drugs like PCP and crack. It all boils down to weather or not you would rather live in a free society or one in which you are treated like a little kid who has no control over his actions. What will you say when they eventualy outlaw something that you may take for a medical or mental condition?

Conceptually, I see your point, and I agree. However, from a practical standpoint, economics play a large part in why things are the way they are. Cost and availablily of any drug is determined in our free market system here in the US....and as things stand, both are determined by the pharmaceutical firms. We could insist that, for us to have more 'freedom', the pharmaceutical firms should be controled by the government.

However, government control of any firm inevitably affects (adversely) the employees....and that's us. (You can bet the upper eschelon will strike a good deal for themselves....and the line workers pay will be reduced so as to reduce costs....or they'll have to work harder to increase volume).

Then there is the Health Insurance Industry. Do you want your health insurance to pay for the meds you choose to consume? Do you want to pay premiums that are raised exponentially, because not only you, but everybody else, wants the 'freedom' to take any drug they want?

It's not a perfect system, by any means. But I read posts from the UK....and I think we've got it lots better.....our health care isn't 'rationed'...we can see the doctor when we want....we don't have to justify to the government our desire to see a specialist....or get a second opinion. Mostly we don't have to wait months to see a doctor. Many of us have employer subsidised insurance....and for a price, we are covered for most medical expenses, including surgery, psychotherapy....and some of us even get a new pair of glasses every two years!

I know you probably didn't want all this Pith.....I wish I could rub a magic lamp and have my way, but alas.....

The drug that causes the greatest pain and suffering (overdoses, violence --domestic and otherwise-- injuries, auto deaths) also causes birth defects, is known to produce organic brain damage from long-term use. That drug is perfectly legal and is sold in great quantities in my local grocery store, right next to the icecream freezers and candy isle right behind where the milk is sold.

That drug dwarfs the effects upon society of all other illegal drugs combined, that drug is alcohol.

Someone who drinks a quart of scotch wandering the streets, driving from bar to bar, how is that person different than someone who ran through a quantity of crack or crystal meth?

I remember a day when I would argue for your point ,although now I am not there .
We all go through phases in our lives ,many ,in fact .A big one is when you have to be responsible for someone else ,
someone who is helpless and depend on you for their everything .would you advocate your presant thoughts for your son or daughter ? keeping in mind that all drug abuse is self medicating ? notice I said abuse ,I'm not speaking of one toke of crack a year ,or one joint a year .
there are so many things that can fulfil our lives why must it center around a fix ?

You are right; in theory what you put into your body should be your decision/problem.
BUT, you need to understand that as long as society has to pay the price for the damage caused by these drugs, you are not going to get your wish.

Conceptually, I see your point, and I agree. However, from a practical standpoint, economics play a large part in why things are the way they are. Cost and availablily of any drug is determined in our free market system here in the US....and as things stand, both are determined by the pharmaceutical firms. We could insist that, for us to have more 'freedom', the pharmaceutical firms should be controled by the government.

However, government control of any firm inevitably affects (adversely) the employees....and that's us. (You can bet the upper eschelon will strike a good deal for themselves....and the line workers pay will be reduced so as to reduce costs....or they'll have to work harder to increase volume).
Not only that, but they would become government sanctioned monopolies. Their continued existance would be guaranteed so they would stagnate. For instance they would be less likely to take chances on developing new drugs that may not pan out, probably out of the desire to control costs in the short term.

Then there is the Health Insurance Industry. Do you want your health insurance to pay for the meds you choose to consume? Do you want to pay premiums that are raised exponentially, because not only you, but everybody else, wants the 'freedom' to take any drug they want?

It's not a perfect system, by any means. But I read posts from the UK....and I think we've got it lots better.....our health care isn't 'rationed'...we can see the doctor when we want....we don't have to justify to the government our desire to see a specialist....or get a second opinion. Mostly we don't have to wait months to see a doctor. Many of us have employer subsidised insurance....and for a price, we are covered for most medical expenses, including surgery, psychotherapy....and some of us even get a new pair of glasses every two years!
The British NHS is the perfect example of a government sanctioned monopoly I was talking about above. They are hesitant to sanction new areas of medicine because they know it will increase their costs. So things like adult ADHD are looked upon skeptically.

I'm not going to argue that our system is perfect. Things need to be done to expand coverage to that middle group that earns too much for Medicaid and not enough to afford a private plan. But we need to be smart about it. The 'uninsured' number that is often quoted in the media is misleading because it counts things like people who have the means but opt out of insurance b/c they don't think it's a good value (often young people who pay more in than they receive back), people who might be uninsured for a month or so due to a job change, and people who qualify for medicaid but haven't enrolled. So we need to cut through all that, see what the real problems are and address those. Well enough :soapbox: for now! :D

First there were drugs, then came Psychology.

T-Bass

First there were drugs, then came Psychology.

Drug induced psychology I like it!!!!!!!

I belive that all drugs should be legalized. I also belive that health care should be free for all.

Most useful drugs are legal just only through prescription for the ones with addictive potiential, with exception of alcohol which is worse than marjuana, but not as bad as say crack!!!!! My opnion only.

Drugs being made illegal do keep people from doing them I am an example. I do not smoke pot because it is illegal. If I do "partake" and I get caught I would loose my nursing license. I can drink alcohol which to me is more addictive but I won't loose my nursing license unless I get a conviction for DWI or am found intoxicated while at work.

It does not make scense to me but it is a boundary that is in place and if I want to keep nursing license I have to "play by the rules". All healthy societies have boundaries, as do healthy individuals. I am not brain washed I just do not think "partaking" is worth loosing my license over.

No matter how many laws are passed or how few laws we obide by not all will be happy.

So if you believe all drugs should be legal and medical care free what have you done to "promote" your cause???? You do have a right to work within the system for changes in our current laws. A daunting feet to say the least but you do have the right to do so.

would you advocate your presant thoughts for your son or daughter ?

Well said William!!!! Having children changed my out look drasticially and NO I would not avocate having crack, herion, ect... legal because it would make it easier for my children to obtain. So I guess I am writting from a parential perspective. Thanks for the insight.

What's the difference between someone who medicates their ADD with ritalin and someone who medicates their addiction problem with heroin/cocaine/meth/whatever else?

The ADD sufferer is considered to have a medical issue, while the addict is considered a criminal, all because someone somewhere decided that some drugs were to be deemed "illegal".

Has it ever occured to anyone that making something "illegal" encourages MORE crime and violence? Or that drinking, coffee use, and the smoking of cigarettes (all legal products), are all acts of drug abuse?

It's painfully obvious to me that none of you live in a place where drugs have actually had an impact on the community. I'd love to show you the downtown eastside of my city and what ridiculous, assbackwards enforcement of silly outdated drug laws can do to people. Marginalization and poverty are but two of the many effects. Thankfully, we're slowly understanding that treating addicts with compassion, while being ruthless with those who exploit their problems IE drug cartels and importers, is a better way to go. The first step is giving addicts access to information and a non-judgemental support system, including a safe, controlled supply of drugs that aren't laced with all sorts of substances to up some drug dealer's profit margin, and eventually, rehab. No ADD sufferer would ever just "quit" drugs cold turkey, they'd wean themselves off, and this works well for people addicted to street drugs as well. Societal support in helping these people get back on their feet is also important. Realistic welfare programs, job placements, and good old fashion helping each other out and being respectful of all go a long way. I'm happy to say that we're at least making some progress here.

If you want to keep drugs away from your children, nothing works better than parental involvement in their lives. No child who feels loved, respected, and with a good idea of the effects of drugs would EVER consider using them. Hiding under the idea that "drugs are illegal" and avoiding the subject with your kids, as I see too many parents and even society in general doing today, will only result in problems for those kids. In other words, you have to PARENT your children. Don't expect school to do it, don't expect society to do it for you, and don't rely on TV or the internet either. You had children, RAISE THEM. It worked just fine for me and the hundreds of other people I know, it can work for yours.

Education works a whole lot better than enforcement.

Interesting post. I agree that economics is a huge factor.

One of the other prominent forces that is often behind the scenes is the impact of the Managed Care/third party payer "insurance " companies.

They help "set the stage" for the economics driving the health care industry as much as the pharmaceutical companies.

In terms of "freedom of choice," the severity of my ADHD is such that I need my meds to work to be able to cognitively do my job.

When they stop working, we (meaning my psychiatrist and my wife as my partner and I ) look to make the necessary changes.

In terms of "freedom of choice," the severity of my ADHD is such that I need my meds to work to be able to cognitively do my job.


I feel you on the meds. I've found myself to also be in need of them. The effects they have on my ability to stay organized and focused has been tremendous so far. The other thing that has helped me is being able to recognize that I have a problem, and finding realistic every day techniques to deal with it in a positive fashion. One wouldn't work without the other. Drugs have certainly helped me.

Pith30 you seem really hung up on drugs and I gotta wonder if you drink coffee or smoke cigs. Caffenine and nictonine are the two biggest drugs out there but noone seems to be talking about them.

Pith, I hear you and feel your pain and kinda understand your frustrations...
but your perspective will probably change drastically when you have kids (if you do). Having children is one the most important steps to "growing up", I think. Once you have kids (as when one marries), you begin to learn humility, humbleness, and a long, unconditional love towards more people than just yourself. (Please note that this is not a slam on you at all. Nothing personal. I've just learned these things and I've watched my friends learn, too). You begin to learn that life is not all about what "I need and want", but about what "my spouse and children, need and want". Once you actually "get" this concept, you get a whole new perspective on the world and the people around you. And while your own self is still very important (and should remain thruout life), you spend more time helping others with their needs and things start to fall into place. This is not geared just toward you, but most young folks. Right now, your inward frustrations, rants and concerns are very real and that's cool... but someday i believe you'll have a different respective on life.
Take care man. There's a lot of folks right here on this forum that know how to help other folks thru there own experiences. Some may be full of s*** (self edit), but many know some things and most all of them care about you and would like to see you do well.

So, go ahead and vent. Get it out. But don't think we don't care.

So take care of yourself, man.
-HocusFocus :)

being on any particular altered substance isn't a moral call in my book. laws are arbitrary as far as drugs are concerned for me. i don't care if the government tells me something is illegal- they are my source of morality thank goodness. LOL..
so for me its a matter of impact on my life, my health, benefits..so i would never do heroin or crystal meth for instance. but thats my choice, not b/c some law said i couldn't.

bcaddkid you have some valid points and many here including myself have needed assistence in "recovering" from addictions.

I will say that realistically legality plays only as much of a roll in our decision to "partake" or not "partake" as we allow it to. We as adults can usually find and do what it is we decide we want weather it is help in recovering from addiction, locating chemicals, or seeking to improve our education, ect...yes it is easier for some than it is for others but hey who said life was fair!!!!!!!

Im glad this thread has stayed peacfull for the most part. A couple of questions where asked about me so I will respond to them. First of all I do have a child, I have a stepdaughter who is three and I love her more than anyone on this planet. Second, what have I done to help promote this cause? Well one of the magazines I work for is a first amendments rights magazine in which I have defended my view on the drug war. Third, I spend half my year in San Franciso, the Haight/Ashbury to be exact so I do know what it is like to live somewhere where illegal drug use is rampant, so now that I have countered all of some people assuptions about me I will counter other claims. First off I am sorry if i offended anyone by calling people in general brainwashed, that was wrong, so sincerly except my apology. My feeling and point is not that I want the street loaded with everybody somking PCP and crank. I happen to think that those drugs would dissapear if things like marijuana, pure MDMA, and opium where leagized. I think the rules regarding legal drugs should be simalr to those of achol I dont think that they should be sold at the corrner candy store for crying out loud. When it comes to seeing the tragedy that some illegal drugs cause I happen to belive that if you took the billions of dollars spent on the drug war and used them for education and rehiblitation that it would do a world of good because lets face it those who are going to abuse drugs will find a way no matter what there status legaly. As far as the person who comented that she only does not smoke pot because she is a nurse is kind of week, I mean if heroin where legalize tomorrow Im not going to run to the drug store and start shooting smack just because I have the right to, the person who would would be, predomently, a current user who would then be able to buy a drug that he knows the purity of (no Oding) it would be less expensive (drugs being illegal drives up the price tenfold) and there for crime would go down (if you have ever seen someone high on smack then you know that you could basicly push them over with one finger) and he would have access to clean needles (lets not forget about Hep C and Aids). Now who would ever go through the trouble of making a meth lab when they could legaly obtain speed at a governement store for a resonable price? Are kids going to be more apt to use hard drugs if they are legal? Well they are getting them now because there comes that time when they are maybe 16 or so and looking for some pot and their illegal dealer may have something else on hand for them to try. And when was the last time you saw someone whose drug of choice was PCP? I have never heard of such an addict, they do it because it is all that is around or all they can afford. Besides all of this does anyone besides me think it is funny (not in the ha ha sence) that our govenrnment will through you in jail for longer than a rapist for posessing a plant. Not just pot but the coca leaf and the poppy plant. These are things that grow naturaly in our world no evil demon came down and created a plant to destroy peoples lives, and how long did human kind sucessfully use these plants for medicinal, spiritual, and recreationl perposes? Why do our brains have the ability to change according to there concumption? Well because they came into being long before we did and they have use to human beings. If i thought for a second that crime, addiction, and children using drugs would go up because of legalization I wouldent belive as i do. I think that a responsible adult has the right and the inteligence to make choices for him or her self in regards to what substances they put into their own bodies. By the way, I dont drink even though many people do but I like the idea that if ever I wanted a beer that i could get one and not spend the rest of my life behind bars.

I think the reason some drugs are legal and others are not is due more to politics and the "class level" of the primary users at the time the drug becomes prominent. If the drug is used by the upper classes, it won't be demonized as readily - and if the Government makes money on it too, well, then it'll never be made illegal.
Common drugs like caffein, nicotine and alcohol would never be allowed if they discovered today. Could you imagine trying to market cigarettes as a new product? "now let me get this straight, you want to licence a product that's being marketed as a way to look "cool". It's dangerous to your health AND highly addictive. It's also bad for those around you when you are using it, and the delivery system utilizes an unprotected heat source that will certainly cause numerous house fires as the popularity of the product grows. ......." - you wouldn't be able to get insurance for a business like this, nevermind Gov approval!
I don't think that all drugs should be legalized - it would be the most marginalized people who would suffer most - those who are least able to make prudent life choices. And for who's gain - the drug companies profit margin and the pleasures of the few who ARE capable of making their own choices and can control their drug use.
What does bother me enourmously is the penalties that the government uses to discourage drug use - and here they are extreamly immoral sometimes. When the penalty for the use of a drug is worse than the negative effects of the drug itself, then I have a big moral issue. The criminal record that comes with a conviction for something like sitting on a park bench and smoking a joint is many times worse than the effect of the joint - either on the person or on society - and this is simply wrong. And this "pee in a cup or we won't even consider you for a job" thing that is so prevalent in the USA is disgusting (unless you're an ATC or Pilot or Ship's Captain, etc.) and benefits no-one. It's a kind of war really - a war waged against "ultra-liberals" by "ultra-conservatives" would be how I would classify it.

i meant to say that the government does NOT influence my morality in general or
of my choice to do or not to do any drug.

As far as the person who comented that she only does not smoke pot because she is a nurse is kind of week


EXCUSE the cr@p out of me if I want to KEEP my nursing license!!!!!(note slightly offended tone) Not only do medical professionals have to pee in a cup to get a job because drugs (pharmicuitical grade no less) are so availible in the medical profession employeers have these things called "random" drug screen where employees can be rounded up when ever they are working and asked to give a witness urine specimen!!!!

Now that I have had my rant to let you know exactly how un-educated you are about my situation I'll simmer down.

I happen to like the effects of marjuana, I have smoked it before when taking a break from nursing and working jobs that do not do drug screens.

The herion arguement doesn't fly here because in nursing most drugs are surprizingly easy to obtain and I have choosen not to obtain them as I do not wish to "partake".

I do drink on rare occasions and smoke pot in about the same way, I would just like the choice as you put it!!! So pith when it comes to good ole marjuana I agree with you.

Now you are also correct in saying just because drugs are easy to obtain it does not mean every one will do them however if availibilty is increased it does increase the incidence of substance abuse.

1 in 4 nurse have (or had) a drug probelm 1 in 5 docotrs have (or had) a drug problem!!!! These are actual stats and not numbers pulled out of my head at whim. This is a drastic increase when comapired to the over all population which is more along the numbers of 1-35 having expermented with drugs by the age of 21 even less when speaking of addiction I simply can't seem to access that number in my brain at present.


originally posted by gregster:
When the penalty for the use of a drug is worse than the negative effects of the drug itself, then I have a big moral issue. The criminal record that comes with a conviction for something like sitting on a park bench and smoking a joint is many times worse than the effect of the joint - either on the person or on society - and this is simply wrong. And this "pee in a cup or we won't even consider you for a job" thing that is so prevalent in the USA is disgusting (unless you're an ATC or Pilot or Ship's Captain, etc.) and benefits no-one. It's a kind of war really - a war waged against "ultra-liberals" by "ultra-conservatives" would be how I would classify it.
__________________


I would like to see drug test that determines weather or not the piolet, surgeon ect is currently under the influence of said drug.

I so agree with you gregster, with the joint thing there!!!!! :D

Because you have to keep in mind that there are addicts out there that have children and families as well as myself.I sure dont want some doped up idiot running over my kid because HE felt it was his body and he wants to take drugs and endanger others.Believe me,Im a total hippie but Im level.The way of the world is unfair,yes.Some can handle things better than others.It made me completly outraged with the hard time I had getting my meds because of my drug history.I dont think that they realize its a vicious circle.I know for a fact I would have gone right back to self medicating if I hadnt gotten help.But,you have to keep in mind-there are really,really inconsiderate people out there who only think or care for themselves.There are even some who dont even do that.Thats why I feel that we do need to keep control over hard substances.All are diffrent.I feel pot should be legal myself.Ive never seen a fight break out amonst stoners!LOL!!!!But I have seen many bar brawls involving alcohol!Also,Im going to put myself out there-I myself was a abuser of the needle.Im very ashamed and it was a long time ago.I did it for about two years,so Im not just pulling these opinions out of the air.I lived it.Ive seen the damage done(neil young)and we have to protect the people who need protecting including ourselves.

Pith, I hear you and feel your pain and kinda understand your frustrations...
but your perspective will probably change drastically when you have kids (if you do). Having children is one the most important steps to "growing up", I think. Once you have kids (as when one marries), you begin to learn humility, humbleness, and a long, unconditional love towards more people than just yourself. (Please note that this is not a slam on you at all. Nothing personal. I've just learned these things and I've watched my friends learn, too). You begin to learn that life is not all about what "I need and want", but about what "my spouse and children, need and want". Once you actually "get" this concept, you get a whole new perspective on the world and the people around you. And while your own self is still very important (and should remain thruout life), you spend more time helping others with their needs and things start to fall into place. This is not geared just toward you, but most young folks. Right now, your inward frustrations, rants and concerns are very real and that's cool... but someday i believe you'll have a different respective on life.
I don't have kids, and I find this post EXTREMELY offensive and patronizing. I have deep respect for people with children, and know that parenthood is a very noble, generous calling. But to talk down to people who aren't parents, and assume that until one becomes a parent one won't "get" that life isn't about what "I need and want" is incredibly ignorant and judgmental.

Oh, and I'm not young, either. But life has taught me a good deal about humility and unconditional love.

And about not being judgmental of others.

[QUOTE]What's the difference between someone who medicates their ADD with Ritalin and someone who medicates their addiction problem with heroin/cocaine/meth/whatever else?

Ritalin is FDA approved and insurance pays for it. Heroin, Cocaine and Meth can kill you after just one hit not to mention destroy your quality of life. I am a recovering addict and meth was my drug of choice. I lost everything except my kids and I didn't even want them around because they messed with my high. Now in all fairness,,,, I also abused Ritalin but thankfully, Ritalin did not destroy my sinus cavities and parts of my brain like meth did. Now that I am a recovering addict,,, I try to stay as far away from any stimulant at all. No way on this earth should meth crank heroin or any other illegal substance be legalized except for when it is prescribed by a doctor for something valid because an addict can think of a million reasons to do meth or anything else. not to mention that Ritalin is to help ADD and Disease of addiction is worsened by illegal drugs,,,, this quate is unrealistic. Drug abuse is only a symptom of addiction and to give an addict drugs is like giving someone with ADD ten lectures a day on why grass is green. That **** kills and people need to stop justifying!

I think we should have doctor-prescribed alcohol and cigarettes.

Step on up. Set your prescription down on the bar there. Your barmasist is here to serve.

Oh, sorry. Doc sez you get up to three shots or five Bud lights in any two hour period. You've had your fill. ;)

And sez here you're not supposed to drive under the influence (doc feels he may be liable for something or other) so I'm forced to lojak your car until you can pass the breathalyser. So sorry.



What kind of physician would prescribe cigarettes? Josef Mengela?

I don't have kids, and I find this post EXTREMELY offensive and patronizing.
Yep; I've know plenty of compassionate, caring folks with no kid.

And plenty of parents that aren't tempermentaly qualified to own a cat.

And there is no point in predicting that a childless person will magically change once he/she becomes a parent. Might happen, might not. But it's a good idea to avoid 'em if they're driving funny.

Before we had kids, I was occasionally asked how I could be a child psychologist if I didn't have any?

My response was something along the lines of "If it "takes one to know one" was required for everything, then there'd be no male OB-GYN's".

Seriously, I do think having my having ADHD gives me a distinct advantage over a clinician who doesn't have it. However, I wouldn't want everything to be so literal.
That would require all brain surgeons to first have brain damage in order to understand it.


In terms of "what's the difference?...," if you go to the Adderall section of the Forum, I posted some research there that covers 3 studies over a period of 13 years that shows that taking stimulants (any stimulant) to treat ADHD... REDUCES THE RISK OF SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER BY UP TO 85%.

The reason for that is that is treats the impulsivity and inhibition.

But most of the damage is caused by them being illegal. Overpriced due to black market causes theft, impure causes disease and overdose and just the general black market crime scene leading people toward more criminal situations. Enforcement money should go to treatment. There is a long waiting list for treatment centers, at least as long as the list waiting to get out of jail for drug crimes.


You are right; in theory what you put into your body should be your decision/problem.
BUT, you need to understand that as long as society has to pay the price for the damage caused by these drugs, you are not going to get your wish.

I see a functional difference between medication for a legitimate medical condition/disorder and recreational use solely for the sake of pleasure.

I agree wit you Mc. Medication prescribed is regulated where as illegal drugs are made with just about anything under the kitchen sink and depends on who is cooking up your dope decides what chemical your putting in your body. Ritalin and other prescribed meds are made the same way everytime. You never know if you are taking rat poison, ajax, chicken feed or baking soda when you get your dope from your dealer. If illegal drugs were regulated, they would not be made the way they are now and therefore would not be as effective and i believe that yor local dope man would still be cooken up next door. As a recovering addict, illegal drugs are deadly and there is no way that anyone can justify why they should be used or legal. One is too many and a thousand is never enough!

Can all of you at least agree that nothing that grew on this earth before we evolved should be legalized? I mean think about the fact that our government sends people to jail for something that grows naturally from the earth. If you still disagree what is to stop the government from banning crab grass because it doesnt look good and makes your lawn look uneven and that could be a real downer for our good christian way of life, would you find that strange or would you run down to the nearest lawn care store and poision the crap out of your yard so as not to feel the rath of the lawmakers? Where do you draw the line? Oh and maybe when caffine is banned and you do 25 to life in the pen for having an old can of Mountan Dew lying around you would still agree that we are so week minded that your punishment fits the crime...what do you think, is banning a plat only strange to me? If it is then well those adds with your egg brain on drugs really took hold, thank goodness for propaganda.

Can all of you at least agree that nothing that grew on this earth before we evolved should be legalized?

Nope, I can't go along with you on that. I've had my share of drugs & agree pot should be at least decriminalized, same for heroin for that matter as they've done in Holland to soften the black market felony crime aspect of it all.

I recently tried a few hard drugs out of curiousity and I can tell you that smoking opium is quite a bit more powerful than alcohol, even though alcohol is very dangerous and potentially destructive, it really is not on the same level as opium at all.

There was a time in the US when cocaine was legal, I'm not clear if a lot of people got addicted but these days they make it into crack or shoot it up and that is extremely powerful dangerous addictive stuff. A long ways from chewing on a coca leaf and something that very few people can 'handle' quite frankly.

Alcohol, as dangerous as it is, in many ways is not as destructive of mental functioning as pot. Pot spaces you out & sticks in your body for a month or so if used more than occasionally so there are reasons for the control.

So I'm for softening penalties but I'm not for legalizing heroin or cocaine. Many of you take speed for the ADD but the fact is amphetamines are also very addictive dangerous drugs to use recreationally. The phrase "Speed Kills' came about before that nasty meth, it refers to the ADD meds.

LSD is a whole 'nother thing that very few people would abuse extensively so it's not dangerous that way. It is dangerous but fascinating and potentially valuable to experiment with a few times carefully. It certainly should not be a felony to take LSD. And frankly I'd prefer synthetic LSD over natural mushrooms so that whole 'comes from the earth' thing just doesn't fly.

But I encourage you to fight for decriminalization and even though I love smoking pot, it is not the best thing for me. I wish I could go to a pot bar occasionally instead of having to buy a week's supply on the street 'cause I just love the stuff and can't put it down when I have it. Lots of my friends like pot but they don't buy it for that reason any more at around age 40. But if I have some they'll still take a toke. It really does interfere with your life for most people as they grow up & have responsibilities so in that way is worse than alcohol even if less narcotic and less addictive.

the amount of tax payer money put into the enforcement of illegal substances is astronomical. imagine, if you will, that same money redirected into medical researchor a tax break or whatever. i forget the figures but heres some interesting reading http://www.leap.cc/

as a father i am confident in my parenting skills, i know that to tell my child not to use is advice. the ultimate decision will fall upon the child eventually. all substances legal or not.

a legalized substance that is regulated is more difficult to obtain than illegal substances. a kid walks into a liquor store to buy a 5th, if the seller wishes to continue business he has to decline the sale. ofcourse this kid could find alternative ways to get his hands on it, but this is a deterrent. a street corner drug dealer doesnt care how old the purchaser is, so long as he has money. much easier to obtain.

i understand that these laws are in place in an attempt to protect people. but the hypocrisy of allowing tobacco and alcohol? i personally do not use any illegal substances. because of the risk involved in selling illegal drugs there are hardened criminal dealers. to legalize all illegal drugs would better protect the people by removing the business from these people. and by regulating and taxing the sales the current street value prices, some profits in excess of 1,000%, would drop considerably. due to the drop in price a drop in crime would follow.
if you can get past the usual thought of people flocking to become addicts as soon as legalization is made it makes sense. some people will try it, others wont. that, to me anyways, is freedom of choice.

Since the masses have lost the ability to "self regulate", it became necessary for "DADDY" to lay down the law and provide a moral compass. "Thou shalt not kill". Oh, I'm sure glad that was cleared up for me. I was thinking about spending the afternoon killing people. Now I know better. Thanks DAD.

As I look out my back window and watch the deer playing in the yard, I can't help but be thankful for the "deer police". I'm sure that if they weren't on the job, then that playful activity that I am witnessing, would surely result in a bloodbath.

I agree with you Pith. In a healthy world, all these laws would be superfluous. The real question is; why are so many people starving for pleasure?

[I agree with you Pith. In a healthy world, all these laws would be superfluous. The real question is; why are so many people starving for pleasure?[/QUOTE]



In my humble opinion;
They are trying to fill a need, an empty part inside of them. They attempt to do it with food, drugs, overspending, working too much etc. Of course as the behavior accelerates they are pushed further and further from what would really make them happy.

I for the life of me can't figure out where you would get a drop in crime if drugs were legalized. From everything I've ever been able to gather that the legalization of alcohol brought an increase in crime rate and violent offenses, wouldn't legalized drugs do the same?

Most drugs inhibit your ability to hold a steady job, if no one will hire you how do you support your habit? While mommy and daddy are all doped out on the couch because its legal who's taking care of the kids? Can we by law take the kids away if their parents are passed out on the couch and not taking care of their needs because drugs are legal?

As far as I can tell we may notice a slight decrease in the crime rate for a short period of time; but, once people trully start getting addicted the rates will increase drastically.

As a mother I tell my children don't drink, don't use but my mother told me that too and warned me what could happen. when faced with the pressure of my peers my mother's words couldn't compete and it took me years to put my life back together.

Jesseandrew I can't agree with you more. My opinion is we should be able to do what we want to our bodies. Less regulation=less use. (by the way, I'm NOT a drug user, never been) When you don't allow something, people want it more. It's forbidden and that makes it more intriguing along with much more profitable. Look at Jamaica for instance, no drinking age. They don't have a drinking problem with thier youth, but we sure do. Just food for thought.

If they don't have a drinking age in Jamaica and claim they don't have a problem with their youth drinking how do we know?

I mean if its not illegal how do they know who is drinking and who is not? NO, I'm not being a smart %%% I'm just wondering if there is seriously some kind of tracking system.

If not then wouldn't their information be rather invalid?

Teenagers have told me they have more difficulty procurring cigarettes (legal for people over age 18) than marijuana (illegal).

pith30...sounds like you need to move to Europe. You should...really go there.

The drug that causes the greatest pain and suffering (overdoses, violence --domestic and otherwise-- injuries, auto deaths) also causes birth defects, is known to produce organic brain damage from long-term use. That drug is perfectly legal and is sold in great quantities in my local grocery store, right next to the icecream freezers and candy isle right behind where the milk is sold.

That drug dwarfs the effects upon society of all other illegal drugs combined, that drug is alcohol.

Someone who drinks a quart of scotch wandering the streets, driving from bar to bar, how is that person different than someone who ran through a quantity of crack or crystal meth?
It has the most affect on society because its legal...Its cheap and easy to obtain. If you could get weed and coke at gas stations for a buck a hit I'd be willing to be you'd see more problems with them.

the whole drug war, worldwide, is hypocritical. and it's annoyingly irritating. i love being european and 22 years old in 2006, love having the internet to do deep research on these matters, love being able to separate hysteria and interest-driven propaganda from fact-based information, and overall enjoying the sense of not being gullible. if it weren't for the drug war, in 2006 the world would already be looking much closer to utopia. unfortunately, we're gonna have to wait a looot longer. but i'll be here waiting. by the way, give mdma a try to bring your emotions back, to those of you adders that feel they're out of emotions, like i've been feeling for years before doing mdma. and hey, mdma kills, mdma fries, mdma destroys... - bull****. give it 5-htp (serotonin precursor to counter post-e-depression) and antioxidants (for neurotoxicity - hey and alcohol is also neurotoxic btw) and a sports drink (for great hydration) and you'll be safest and growing and having that great time. damn i hate the hypocrisy and how much harm alcohol and tobacco do and how much they are seen as harmless. they won't even ever be made illegal because they make the governments huge profits in tax money, and the lobbies are also already cemented... they don't even consider it. also one of the biggest things here, i'd hypothesize with conviction, is that conservative, religious, dogma-driven people demonize psychoactives as sin and such, when one of the greatest insights a religious person can have is to consider how much psychoactives - that have been with us through all times - have influenced religious insights.

anyway i still have my procrastination and a tolerance and desensitivisation for failure and letting people down, even in high responsibility situations. is it possible that i can cure this by putting back an emotional charge in failing, so that i will have the proactive attitude to prevent failure in the first place? i'm going to go have a psychologist session tomorrow and i'm going there rolling on mdma, to take chance of the emotional openness and learning enhancement. i'll let you know how it went afterwards...

by the way for those who don't know mdma is the commonly called ecstasy...
you guinea pigs like me get in touch... let's share experiences... ehehe

hey and i'm outta concerta... and it has only been helping me pull all nighters... humm... but i'll get more anyway. lol.

The entire drug war is a huge joke and it's pushed out in front of every other MAJOR problem by the media/government.

How many people do you think die in a year or have an organ replaced due to alcohol or tobacco

How many people have died due to an overdose on alchool vrs weed/speed/ etc etc whatever you want to put here.

How many of you know that opium production actually sky rocketed after the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> invaded <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1 ="">Afghanistan</st1></st1:country-region>. Don't believe me, research it yourself.

How many people die every year due to cancer vs. drug overdose?

If you look at all the major health issues the actually kill people every year drug related deaths would be at the bottom of the totem poll.

It reminds me of the entire gun control issue <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1 ="">UK</st1> </st1:country-region>has a total gun ban and crime is soaring (look it up for yourself) because what kind of criminal is going to turn in there gun, hahah. The law abiding citizen sure will though

My rant is over, the entire drug war is on huge scam that casts a shadow over the REAL IMPORTANT issues. People no longer question/research what’s put out in front of them and tend to believe whatever government/media has to say. It actually kind of worries me sometimes knowing that the majority of people (not saying everyone) are turning in to mindless zombies.
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Call me and idiot or whatever, but I can prove EVERY point I made here, and I won’t do it by calling people names like Bill Oreily or however you spell his name haha.

just a quick update to anyone interested the psychologist says we'll be doing some sessions before giving mdma a go. but we'll get there, i've convinced her lol. and mum is willing to use it to get rid of some ugly useless trauma that's been with her for too long. but the damn d€al€r has his phone off since 31st dec 2005... has he been busted? bah...

Ricardo,

I agree in principle with a lot of what you are saying- I've seen how a 'softly, softly' approach to drugs has lowered crime in the place I lived (Brixton UK) as well as living in mainland Europe for a while now and seeing the attitude to drugs in these places.
I dont live in the states, although I have for a couple of years and saw what it was like there also. I also correspond with a couple of people in prison on drugs charges (I didn't know them beforehand- it is just something I do)
I do think that the way the US perceives drugs as a criminal act is morally wrong and unfair.

But, I've done a hell of a lot of drugs in my time and come to the conclusion that they are a pretty destructive thing, ultimately- especially for people with ADD, most specifically me.
I've done everything up to but not including heroin on a monthly basis.
We are talking coke, E, grass, meth, GHB, 2CB, alcohol, tobacco, crack, uppers, downers... the lot. Often all at once.
It didn't interfere with my job, life, work or really impact my life at all in the beginning.
After a while it became a regular bi-weekly event and then went to weekly (Basically Friday until Sunday)
I had a ****load of fun doing it- it was really, really brilliant, especially in the context I was doing them in.
Coke, I noticed (and there is medical evidence to support this) initially helped my ADHD a lot also. At this stage I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD but I had a few 'problems' that went away when doing it.
This continued for about a year.
I always used with other people- but then I would find myself alone on a Thursday night with a bottle of whisky, 1/2 a litre of ghb and some coke and I'd do it by myself.

One night I called in a suicide to my ex-girlfriend who called the ambulance.
I had passed out so they broke the door down.
I woke up at that point, very scared and had to deal with the aftermath.

I was extremely lucky.
I didn't get caught by the police- the ambulance made sure I was alright and then left me to sort myself out.
I got away with it (except for a broken door and lock I had to replace) but then stopped habitually using drugs.

Eventually I ended up quite depressed- something ADHD people need to be aware of- coming off drugs, even if you are a casual user, can be quite difficult for an adhd person.
We are always chasing a high and drugs are a very easy way to find it.
They are cheap, plentiful and quick acting.
They are seductive and attractive because we get to tap into the shamanistic and sacred part of ourselves with a minimum of effort- plus people think you are cool if you do them, and you connect temporarily with every other living being on the planet- well, you think you do.
People take drugs because they work.

Coming off drugs has been extremely easy on one level- I was never an addict in the conventionl sense. I never missed work- but I wasn't feeling great for Mon-wednesday either.
I was using 5HTP from friday-sunday so my serotonin levels would re-establish themselves asap after using.

But, it has taken me a fair while to get my act together where I feel happy in my own body again.
I know that using drugs didn't help me really.
It didn't hurt as much as some people in the government would like you to believe, but they did damage they I am still repairing.

I try not to regret anything, but I know I won't be touching illegal drugs again- it simply isn't worth the emotional fallout.

These days I chase my highs by doing a hell of a lot of exercise and concentrating on my work- which I find much more fullfilling.

That is my take on it all.

James

Hi James,

Thanks for your post :)

Curiosity, how old are you, what do you work on?

And can one smoke weed in Switzerland? I have the idea it's even more legalize than the Netherlands?

Be well! :D

Ric

With respect to ADHD, which is where this thread originally was trying to tie in with drug abuse, there have been several posts made on the 3 research studies covering a span of 13 years, that show the use of ANY stimulant can reduce the likelihood of Substance Use Disorder (SUD) by up to a maximum of 85%.

The reason for that is that the meds decrease the impulsivity.

Hi James,

Thanks for your post :)
Curiosity, how old are you, what do you work on?
And can one smoke weed in Switzerland? I have the idea it's even more legalize than the Netherlands?
Be well! :D

Ric

I'm 34 and a professional musician.
Weed is illegal here but no-one gets arrested for posession of small amounts.
Hard Drug use is treated as an illness, not a crime- for the most part, although people do get arrested for possession.
Posession with intent is still a series thing to get done for.

JR

BAck to the original post here... free healthcare. A wonderful idea, but how on earth would it be funded? Sorry, but not interested in having my taxes raised yet again, and by the significant amount required to fund free health care.

Also, I have heard way too many stories of people in Germany and Canada unable to get into a doctor in a timely manner. Need heart surgery? okay, we'll see you in six months to a year.... No thank you.

My husband's company, and many others, screen for drug use. They have to do this. Employees operating machinery are too dangerous to be around if they have drugs in their system. They are a danger to themselves as well as others. In a perfect world, those who operate machinery for a living would not take drugs, but you would not believe how many accidents are caused by idiots operating machines with illegal drugs in their system.

Using pot to counter effects of cancer treatment is a whole different matter. Whatever it takes to kill the pain of someone in that situation should be considered.

In Australia healthcare works this way.
You have state provided health care but you can also purchase private healthcare.
If you pay for privaate healthcare you get a tax reduction of 1%- which means if you earn around 50k a year you basically break even.
It works pretty well.
Tax is roughly 30-40% for most professional people.

In Switzerland private healthcare is mandatory as there is no state supplied healthcare.
Tax is roughly 20% here though so at the end of the day I kinda prefer to live here.

accually in some part of the American constitution it says something like; we have the freedom to put whatever into our bodies whenever we feel the need to. But this clause(i think thats what it is) is basically ignored and overided by the gov

I am 20 years old and although I have been offered drugs and beer I have never taken them. This had a lot to do with the fact that I didn't want my brain and life to be controlled by a drug to the point where I couldn't live without it. I don't tihnk I am a better person because I don't use drugs, although I do think I"m better off, mentally.
I also know people who made the descision to take drugs and drink and in some cases they control it and in others it controls them.
I tend to think that if people really want to take drugs to self medicate, they will find a way. Just as some people use food to medicate. You arn't going to stop people from getting drugs by makeing them illigal. If that were so, there wouldn't be such a huge drug problem. Education is the key, because at the end of the day, if you know somthing's going to kill you, destroy your brain and your body and you still choose to take it, you're pretty much asking for a disaster. I"m not saying illigal drugs should legalized at all. Because people who take drugs innevitably hurt people, whether directly or by there actions.
That sounds harsh, but you have to consider that millions of young people who have emotional problems and hard lives are offered drugs and they refuse. These people are brave enough to deal with life head on instead of numbing it behind a drug. You don't need beer or drugs to be content or have a good time. Personally If I go to party and have a good time, I"d like to remember it. Lot's of peoplel have tried to tell me that marijuana opens your mind, or makes you more creative and thoughtful. Well maybe the do,But I"d rather my thohts come from me, not from artificial inducement.
That said I do take Concerta for my ADD. however, I don't get high of it, it doesn't fix anything and I don't use it to avoid problems. I still have to get up every morning, make descisions about my life alone, and deal with hard issues. I don't up my dose and try to forget about my problems.

*deep breath*

Sorry guys. I"m done venting

to be honest, i don't see much of a difference between bungee jumping and using drugs to get high. both are recreational activities. both are risky and dangerous. from the beginning of time, people have risked their safety for exhileration. i see drug use and extreme sports as exactly the same thing. it's that risk or, in the case of drugs, it's the risk AND the chemical that causes a rush of endorphins, making it so appealing. it's human nature.

...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. and when i say happiness, i mean "happiness as defined by the federal government."

I don't believe that any drug other than pot should be completely legalized and sold over the counter, in gas stations, etc. Some say that pot makes you stupid and lazy, well DUH if you smoke it every day all day, but of all the drugs I've done (and I've done a lot, ranging from lsd to ecstacy, to a massive variation of pharmaceuticals and many more) the two most aweful substances I've ever put in my body are tobbacco and alcohol. Nicotine addiction is aweful, and expensive, and getting drunk has only caused me problems. I stopped drinking and am in the process of quitting my nasty smoking habit. Nowadays I only associate myself with drugs that have a low chance of addiction, mostly psychedelics, and my life has never been so clear and in control. I started drug usage to self medicate mid teen depression, but I approached from a knowledgable and responsible angle, mostly because a peer of mine got hooked on coke in ighschool and dropped out his junior year.
Anyways, in my opinion, legalizing drugs is a rediculous idea, because too many jobs ride on it and many other stupid issues. People should be educated properly on what drugs do and drugs with the potential to heal, both physically and mentally, should be recognized and should no longer be demonized.

Marijuana and Booze make for good sedate citizens. Pot is the MTV of the drug world, about as subversive or as interesting as newest rock band that play three chords and try to look angry. If the government could figure out how to keep citizens from growing their own it would be legal in a second.

Drugs, broad term which covers the spectrum from asprin to heroin. I see so many posts about people having trouble getting medicated properly or it is to costly for them to get help. What I dont see is anyone standing up and saying, you know what i am a full grown person with a functioning brain and I should be allowed to make any and all decisions regarding what i put into my body. Have we been so brainwashed by the Government that you guys really believe that the laws surrounding prescription and non prescription drugs are right and just. I was under the impression that freedom was the mantra on which this country was founded. I belive that all drugs should be legalized. I also belive that health care should be free for all. Why, simply because no one, no matter how many guns they have should be able to tell me what to do with my body or when to do it, or if i have this or that or any other reason. Where is the outrage that a corrupt system decides when, what, where, and if you are allowed to injest a substance. Where will things have to get before people wake up?
Pith
People that have these opinions do not understand the reasoning why these substances are made illegal. It is not to directly to take away a freedom, but the substances that are made illegal are to prevent the burden that they can place on society.

Take for example, the motorcycle helmet law. You have to wear a helmet to ride a motorocycle in most states. The law isnt just for your safety, it is for the well being of society in a whole. What happens if you wreck, you get sent to the hospital, who pays for the medical bills? what if you dont have insurance? who pays for the bills? The money to pay your medical bills is taken from society!

Go back to drugs, what if someone overdoses, who pays for the medical treatment? Most junkies dont have money, say they decide they need help, who pays for the medical treatment? SOCIETY!!!!

while you say that you should have the freedom to put any drug into your body and that all this should be made legal, others are saying we shouldnt have to pay for his medical bills if he overdoses!

re: #1

Politically, you would be called a Libertarian.

In my opinion, unless you need them because a Dr prescribed them to you, drugs are a waste of time and money, you shouldn't be asking why are drugs illegal, you should be asking why you would want to do drugs—including ethanol—when they haven't been prescribed to you.

Drug Prohibition is obviously a success in the United States, once there they realize how to make the laws better (e.g., double the mandatory sentences and fines for dealers every year that there were not half the number of dealers arrested as the pervious year) and as technolgy advances, our government will eventually make ethanol and nicotine schedualed substances.

You see, we just didn't have the means to control ethanol in the 20s, but once we have a tight squeeze on the currently schedualed drugs, we will do as I explained in the pervious paragraph.

The botanical form of the dried flowers of cannabis will never become over the counter in the United States, and it will never become medically prescribed either, perhaps a mixture similar to the opium tincture will be optional for presciption, but, just as opioids pharmaceuticals have replaced the use opium tincture, so will cannabinoid pharmaceuticals replace any crude form of cannabis where the exact doses of the many chemicals are not standarized.

People over 21 should not be alloud to buy or consume more then one drink of ethanol a day, if this was the law then there would be significantly less deaths resulting from drunk driving and ethanol poisoning becuase 1 drink is fine to drive on.

Now I ususally feel too awkward to express my feelings, as I have in this post, in everyday life, but I believe this topic in this forum is the appropriate place.

An addict, left to his/her own devices, can't and will not use drugs/alcohol in moderation. It isn't a question of standing up, being a man/woman and saying "You know what, I'm not going to do it anymore" Many of us have tried and failed a thousand times. The only real way to stay sober is through a 12 step program, having a conscious contact with a Higher Power, being of service and doing what is suggested by others that have stayed sober. A non-addict/alcoholic will never understand the disease unless they are willing to go to an al-anon meeting to understand it. I understand what you are saying though. Often times, I have submitted to that opinion as well, but then I realized that I couldn't stay sober.

i beleive they should put VERY high sentences on some drugs like heroin and meth, and low the sentences for MDMA, weed and stuff

to keep ppl away from using the more addictive stuff

everyone should have the right to put what they want in their body, put ppl get addicted fast! how many addicts planned to get addicted?