Hello, everyone! I'm 31, and was recently diagnosed with ADD. I have been taking adderall for 5 mths. A friend recently told me that stimulant medications can cause dopamine depletion. Does anyone have any information about this? I'm really glad I found this forum, because I desperately need a support system. I have several people who are totally against taking meds., but I have had success and don't want to stop.

Thanks,
Anna

David’s ADHD

I always knew that there was something wrong I just didn't know what.

I think a part of me was always fighting taking medication because I felt it's somehow cheating, that I should be able to get things done if I just had enough self-will and determination. I *know*, intellectually, that my ADHD is real and biological, but emotionally...

When I first began taking medication for ADHD, I was overwhelmed by the amount of quietness in my head. It was extremely scarey and made me hesitant to do anything. For the first time in my life I could actually hear my own thoughts without interruption. It's difficult to explain but I will try to explain by an analogy. It was like sitting at a rail road crossing watching as the train goes by, trying to read the graffiti written on each car, wondering what’s in each car, how long is the train and how many cars are there, does the conductor like his job and I wonder how does he get back home? The train disappears in the distance, some horn blows, the lights green and I can't remember what my last thought was...:( Driving forward waiting on my mind to catch up! So I can get back to what I was supposed to be doing. I have become accustomed to the diverting traffic in my head, but now on medication the traffic has come to an immediate halt. But, because of my experience, I am afraid it might be a trick to get me in the middle of the road, where the train would come speeding down the track and kill me. With Adderall I have gained the ability to stay focused and trust that I’m not going to lose concentration and get hit and learned that it is safe... Not jump over cars, run to the other side of the road in the wrong direction or wait for another car to go by, so that I could make it to the next safety point.

I started looking into ADD a few months ago and said "this is just like me." It angers me sometimes that I wasn't helped a long time ago. I hated school, hated my job, never really had friends ( my way or no way), and my parents were so unaware of my problem. Of course, my self esteem lacks, because I was always told that I was lazy, a dreamer, always take the easy way out, overly sensitive, never finish anything, unapproachable, etc. The knowledge coupled with the medication has given me the freedom to be able to change. In essence, however, medication does not change one; there is still work to be done. I wish that it were like a magic wand because I struggle in many areas of coping with what some view as basics.

I have been doing a lot of reading on the internet, message boards and chat. Trying to gather as much information as possible on how to implement some necessary changes, adjust to the quietness and comparing medication dosing and reactions. There are many POTENTIAL risks involved with stimulants as with ANY medication. I don't want to be scared off from them just because of the horror stories I have read and heard. When I read of people taking 10mg a day and having bad side effects, it makes me think twice about asking for a dosage increase. Although there are far more success stories than failures. On October 3 I will be 40 years old, I was diagnosed a few months ago with ADHD. I am currently prescribed Adderall xr 30 mg/once daily. I'm 6'5'' and weigh 235lbs. I have been involved in starting my own business the last year. I wake up around 3:30/4:00a.m. go to the gym and out the door to work by 7:00/7:30a.m. Business moves at the speed of life, so I never know when I am going to have a long day or a really long day.

Within the past few weeks it has become easier to recognize when the medication is increasing my concentration and focus and when it is wearing off. Taking my medication as prescribed (1x30mg) the past three months I’ve experienced about 6 hrs of focus and concentration max before I start to hear the train coming. I have recently decided to try taking 60mg (2x30mg) on the weekend ( I finally feel like I had one and got a few things accomplished as well) spacing out the dosing 7hrs apart starting at 5/6 a.m. this worked really well for a minimum of 12 hrs and I’m still able to fall asleep at a decent hour. Monday through Friday I have either skipped a day or taken a total of 60mg (2x30mg) 6hrs apart. More often than not my business requires me to work late physically and mentally. First I tried taking my dose later in the day, but that’s like putting out a forest fire with a squirt gun, might as well let it burn its self out. So, I have realized that taking one 30mg is just not enough for the entire day. I feel worse in the afternoon (around 1p.m./2p.m.) than if I didn’t take any medication at all (falling back on caffeine).

I've had a really good few months: clarity, depression better (because I can think better), less squirming, better concentration, etc. Not a single bad effect, and I have had no adverse effects from the med. In fact, in my opinion I'm calmer, sleep better, coffee consumption reduced dramatically, my appetite is fine ( not taking Zantac on a daily basis) and certainly not having any negative effects on my sex life ( because we get along better). I exercise (cardio and weights) almost every day. My personal relationships as well as social have improved dramatically. When I hear of these horror stories people tell about Adderall it leaves me to believe that they must not suffer from the same thing I have for the last 40yrs. The medication creates an instant quietness in my head which has given me the ability to attempt to change many of my ingrained coping with ADHD mechanisms... I realize the medication is not magic. Yet, it is so much better than it ever was prior to the medication. Now I know, I have spent most of my life unaware of my behavior, and these behaviors have greatly impacted the quality of my life and the lives of those around me. For example my poor time management, confusion, interrupting others, poor study skills and even overeating have fostered low self-esteem and ill with others.

When it comes down to it, I personally believe that every individual should weigh their options and choose what's best for them. For me, it is to take Adderall. Yes, there are many potential side effects from it, but you only get one chance at life, and for me, I would rather spend my life at least somewhat "put-together."

Quite frankly, every drug has its dangers and side effects....it's a matter of what works for a particular person.



I'm finally being treated and I'm looking forward to a better and successful life ;)

David Mauller

Sunday, August 21, 2005

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Okay...I'm no Scientist but I'll explain what I know in simple terms. I'll leave it up to others to correct me.

Neurotransmitters(brain message chemicals) like Dopamine travel across the synaptic gap(the microscopic space inbetween two separate neurons) to pass a message along a series of neurons(neurons are like multipronged extension cords). After the message has been sent the neurotransmitters are recycled by a neurotransmitter reuptake (this is like a vacuum cleaner which sucks the neurotransmitters back to their original place to get ready for the next message). People with ADHD have neurotransmitter reuptakes that often work too efficiently and don't allow some neurotransmitters to cross the gap. So messages are often lost. If I remember this correctly, there is different wiring for different purposes. ADHD people seem to lose the internal no messages. Stimulants simply make this system work more like it should.

I don't understand how you would deplete your dopamine in this system and what role stimulants would have in this. You have most likely been reading Scientology/ ICSPP scare literature and I seem to remember this issue on one of their websites. Please send a link along of your information source. I'll gladly try to confirm this if a link is given.

More on stimulants and possible pitfalls. ->http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17742

This is a great explanation, Scuro. I would like to add a few things.

Simulants help release more dopamine and noreprenephrine.

Medications like Strattera, help with the noreprenephrine reuptake. Again, the noreprenephrine reuptake is the "pump" that transmits the signals across the synopsis. Dopamine is one that gets transmitted.

Serotonin is another, but this is the "happiness" neurotransmitter.

I take a stimulant, a noreprenephrine reuptake inhibitor and a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. They are a very effective combination for me. Other's have reported achieving the same results from this combo, as well.

Wow! This is really great information. I really appreciate it! Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any solid info. regarding this topic. A friend just thought she would mention this to me. She said that since stimulants flood your system with dopamine, that over time your body will not release dopamine on it's own. My psych. said that it's a possiblity, but that she has never heard of a case. My psych. also said, "That's why you should take it as needed. You should also take breaks on the weekends." I haven't been taking breaks. I'm in college, have a 10 mth old and 10 yr old. I take it everyday, because I don't know exactly when I'll get to study. Adderall has also helped me keep my home organized. I am like night and day. I guess what I battle with is that there isn't much research on long term side effects. I don't like to think I could be harming myself in the long run. I'm confused. Also, I am hispanic, and my culture really doesn't believe that ADD exists. My brother calls me a "crack head", and my mom says that I'm going to have a heart attack. I'm sorry for rambling on, this is just really hard for me. I don't take medication, and I'm lazy, unorganized, etc. I take medication and I'm a crack head.

I think shes thinking of extacy.

Thats so true!!My best friend is hispanic and her mom is always rolling her eyes at me.Whenever I talk about it she quickly dismisses it!!It ticks me off.She has known me since I was 14!!!!M friend just dosnt say anything,I didnt realize that the hispanic community felt this way but I do know that your culture is hard working and proud so that may have something to do with it.They may see it as a weakness.

Do stimulants actually produce more neurotransmitters or just make what we have more effective? As I understand it, it's the second case. So if this logic follows, you can't deplete your neurotransmitters if your not making more. Stimulants have a lengthy track record of success.

I did a net search and the source of misinformation may be Dr. Peter Breggin.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:SUg4Ea-ekd8J:www.breggin.com/Newstimulants.pdf+adhd+and+stimulants+and+%22dopam ine+depletion%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en

Here is an excerpt from his report.

"8.6. Methylphenidate Mach, Nader, Ehrenkaufer, Line, Smith et al. (1997) used PET in Rhesus monkeys to confirm the similarity of effects among MPH, AMPH, M-AMPH, and cocaine on dopamine release in the basal ganglia. It should therefore be expected that MPH will produce the same neurotoxic effects as other psychostimulants. Barnett and Kuczenksi (1986) found downregulation of dopamine receptors after MPH administration to animals but did not test for recovery. Mathieu, Ferron, Dewar, and Reader (1989) found reduction of the density of the norepinephrine receptors after treatment with MPH. Lacroix and Ferron (1988) after 7 days of MPH treatment in rats found that “the efficacy of cortical NA [noradrenergic] neurotransmission is markedly reduced following methylphenidate treatment” (p. 277). Neurons became less responsive to various forms of stimulation, indicating desensitization. The changes persisted at the last testing, 18 hours after drug exposure. Juan et al. (1997) found dopamine depletion in the mouse striatum 5 days after terminating treatment with MPH but not two weeks after. The few studies that have tested for longer-term dopamine depletion from MPH have failed to document it (Wagner et al., 1980; Yuan et al., 1997; Zaczek et al., 1989). However, this does not rule out irreversible neurotoxicity. Given the findings of short-term abnormalities, and the lessons from AMPH and M-AMPH, suspicion must remain high that irreversible changes are also caused by MPH.


I'll leave it to others to disect his logic. Dr. Breggin's two most famous books are Toxic Psychiatry and Talking back to Ritalin. He is a known ADHD basher with an agenda.

More on the Antipsychiatry movement and Dr. Breggin.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18139
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16872
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16873
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18118

Recently I read that wearing high healed shoes can cause dopamine depletion (indirectly). Dopamine is produced in muscles and the shoes force your posture to change stretching and contracting muscles unnaturally. Not a lot, but just enough to keep them from releasing the normal amount of dopamine.

Only slightly related to the question, but I thought it was interesting. :rolleyes:

I think everyone interested in the topic should read this link:

http://www.utexas.edu/research/asrec/dopamine.html

it seems to say that adderall does nothing for us but give us more tolerance to its effects

Ok sorry I clicked on this cause the title caught my eye. But too much going on here for me to focus on the comments. I don't know much about all the side effects myself. I do know I was on ritallin at age 3-13 and off til 25. @5 I was in college for a yr and half ways through started ritalin again. It made a huge difference for me. I am now 29 and starting meds again cause so much in my life has changed I am finding it hard to adapt to them. As far as long term side effects i haven't had any. But, w/ all meds you have risks of side effects. Even the over the counter meds you have that risk. I was having regular checkups w/ my DR for heart rate and blood pressure when I was on Adderall. I was only on it for 6months cause my sinus problems got worse so I am prolly allergic to it unfortunately. I really liked it alot made more of a difference than ritalin. LOL!!! I am not sure if this helps ya any at all. I seem to have started rambling. Sorry i tend to do that at times. Good Luck!

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to post information. It's been a long journey for me.

Wow! This is really great information. I really appreciate it! Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any solid info. regarding this topic. A friend just thought she would mention this to me. She said that since stimulants flood your system with dopamine, that over time your body will not release dopamine on it's own. My psych. said that it's a possiblity, but that she has never heard of a case. My psych. also said, "That's why you should take it as needed. You should also take breaks on the weekends." I haven't been taking breaks. I'm in college, have a 10 mth old and 10 yr old. I take it everyday, because I don't know exactly when I'll get to study. Adderall has also helped me keep my home organized. I am like night and day. I guess what I battle with is that there isn't much research on long term side effects. I don't like to think I could be harming myself in the long run. I'm confused. Also, I am hispanic, and my culture really doesn't believe that ADD exists. My brother calls me a "crack head", and my mom says that I'm going to have a heart attack. I'm sorry for rambling on, this is just really hard for me. I don't take medication, and I'm lazy, unorganized, etc. I take medication and I'm a crack head.
Hey sweetie... I go through the same thing with my family. My mother tells me things like, "You don't need to get DOPED UP in order to study!! You're killing yourself with those drugs. You're going to be addicted and dependent on drugs all your life..." Things like "drugged up" and "doped up" and "killing yourself" I hear all the time. I got to the point where I actually felt guilty about taking Adderall. Finally, it was my psychiatrist in fact who told me to just say something along the lines of, "I feel that taking Adderall helps me" to every single thing she says. Example:
Mom- "Why do you think you need drugs to function?"
me- "I feel that taking Adderall helps me"
Mom- "You know you're killing yourself with drugs..."
me- "well, I feel that taking Adderall helps me"
Mom- "You're doping yourself up is all you're doing. It doesn't help!"
me- "actually,I feel like taking the Adderall helps me"

You get the idea. Things have been better because she knows she isn't going to get to me anymore. My psychiatrist has really helped me deal with all the negativity and stigma attached to taking Adderall. I also have concerns about long term effects, dependency, addiction, etc. He reassures me of its safety during every single appointment. He's been absolutely incredible. Having a great psychiatrist is key.

Here is the link to my "raving" about my psych... Scroll down to the last few posts of mine. I only hope everyone feels the same way about their doctor.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19666

PM me if you ever need to talk about anything. Good luck hun!:D

It's so frustrating to hear people tell you what you do and don't need. They clearly have no idea. "Well, I don't take drugs and I do just fine," they say. "You don't have a problem you're just lazy," they say. It's all crap.

Tom Cruse drives me crazy. I always thought he was just a weirdo. Now I know he's a frickin' crazy idiot. I can't believe the things he says. You know some people actually take was he says seriously because he's famous too.

And have you guys heard of "Dr." Thomas Armstrong? He wrote a book about ADD/ADHD being fake and suggests that the attention problem is caused by bad foods and low self esteem. He says it can be solved by dietary changes and discipline. It's all so infuriating. ADD/ADHD has been proven by actual medical doctors. These people just don't know what they're talking about, nor do they know what it's like to struggle with ADD/ADHD.

It's embarrassing enough to be the last person in the room every time there is an exam, or take so much longer to do homework than other students who take more credit hours. They have to tell us that we're doped up too, because everything else just isn't enough.

I think there was a 20/20 show on adderall. They called it the academic steroid. Some students felt that those on adderall were cheating because they took a medication that made them study better.:confused:

A friend recently told me that stimulant medications can cause dopamine depletion. Does anyone have any information about this?
Last night I stumbled upon a quick few sentances about this in a book by Jonathan Scott Halverstadt, M.S. It was in the section about medication options.
"Since the causes of ADD behaviors are an inadequate supply of the neurotransmitter dopamine in the brain and decreased activity in the prefrontal cortex, we can begin to solve the problem by increasing the amount of dopamine."
Then it continues to list off Ritalin, Dexedrine, Cylert, Desoxyn, and everybody's favorite amphetamine salt; Adderall. :D

Here's the thing.... we NEED the adderall. To everyone else, it's just speed!! It places us on a level playing field with non-ADD people. I did fine in school w/o it, but I had to work REALLY hard to stay focused and study as much as I needed to (that's where the bottomless Dr. Pepper, cigarettes and heavy metal music came into play... can you say "self medication"?). To say it gives us an "advantage" because it's the "academic steroid" is stupid! That's like saying just because someone wears glasses they have an advantage because they can see things other people can't!

Now, that's not to say I haven't known people who've bought other people's meds and used them to stay up, prepare and perform in a crunch and w/ little sleep. Again, they're abusing the meds we use to be "normal".