...I mean it!!! (not really --but somtimes GRRR!!!)

School has been in a total of 2 weeks & he has asked me 4 -5 times if he can stay home b/c he doesn't FEEEEL like going.

Fri I'm at work & my DH calls & asks me if I want the bad news now or later. I figure he means the car (it's in the shop) he says no that son's teacher called today b/c he FLIPPED off the safety patrol & told them he could do "...whatever the hell he wanted!!" He's in 3rd grade!!!!!! So needless to say he's grounded for the holiday weekend & has 3 unfinished math papers to do & 2 apology letters to write.

So Fri night he spent the night at g-ma & g-pas house so I can go out with a friend (bachloerette party). I told them he was grounded & not to let him watch tv or anything..of course they let him...I was NOT happy!!!

Today it has been nothing but whineing & yelling---he grabbed a plastic bag on the way to his room . When I went in there, I asked him what he was doing w/ it & he told me he was going to suffocate himself!!! i called my mom & asked her why they let him watch tv & then I started balling b/c I just don't know what to do!!!! She apologized for it but didn't know what else to say...

I have called places I've been reffered to but have not had any luck with any of them. He's too old or he doesn't qualify for some reason or another..

I don't know what to do...husband says he (son) needs to go some where ..away from him & that he can't handle it anymore. I know that I can't live with the both of them together...I'm going to have a nervous breakdown if it continues.

..he still hasn't done his school work, & doesn't care that he'll get detention if it's not done. What can I do?

awww hugs to you...your plate is running over, isn't it?

First of all, you have to take care of yourself. How can you be there for your husband or son, if you aren't meeting your own basic needs? I understand from your post that you are attempting to find some type of counseling. While you pursue that venue, please try and find a free support group of some type that is face to face.

There are always places listed in the yellow and blue pages. Please do not give up. The fact that you recognize you are heading for a break down is, in my opinion, a good sign that you haven't at this point. Have you spoken to your family doctor about the anxiety and stress happening in your daily life? If you have a religious affiliation, they often have free counseling. If there is a local women's group, for anyone experiencing now or in the past any type of abuse, they also often offer free group and/or one on one counseling.

Naturally, you can always post here. Big, big hugs to you. I'm not totally famiar with the circumstances at your house, but I know that you should not be in the middle of things between your role with your husband, and your role with your son.

As far as the school situation, I'm not sure what else is going on with your son. That is rather extreme behavior for a child in third grade, in my opinion. If I knew your son's diagnosis, I would feel more able to make suggestions. Just based upon what your post said, I would be inclined to ask if there is an alternative setting classroom available in your district, and maybe look into whether or not he would qualify. However, without all the facts, this would be just a random suggestion. Please feel free to pm me any time, and know that you are NOT alone.

The forums community is here for you whever you need to vent.

Cynde

:mad: GRRRR!!!! :mad: He's at it AGAIN!!!! Yesterday while I'm at PTA & getting ready to leave, he's on the lower field playing ball with a friend the friend's dad & brother, when one of the mom's comes in with her daughter & a friend & the kids tell me that my son called them a MFer!!! :eek: WHAT THE HECK???? :eek: I don't get it???? :confused: He was just busted not even a week ago for the middle finger thing & now this???!!! Does he think this is better?? Or that I won't find out? Needless to say he's grounded AGAIN!!! INDEFINATLY!! How do I get through to him that this is unaccecptable!!!??? what to do? His dad is ready to ship him off somewhere because of his lack of impulse control & not to mention his INCESSANT WHINING!!!!! IF ANYONE HAS ANY SUGGESTIONS....PLEASE!!!!!!!!

Do you think grounding your son is working?

Witsend,
I'm sorry if I'm missing something here? Has your son been diagnosed yet?
Or are you looking?
My oldest son, was dx at 5 yrs old. After he tried to throw a chair through a pre-school window and the teacher in front of it.
We went thru problems again when he hit his teenage years. The best advice I can give you is if he's not dx yet. Find a good phychiatrist that specializes in ADD and other childhood disorders...

Get educated. Come here often. Read read read,,,
If he has been dx , then maybe he needs another med or different dose?
This was key with my oldest , who has been a "monster" since 5.
I recently filed unruly on him, because he missed 45 days of school last year, cause he didn't want to go!

Since we found an excellent doc, and he has been willing to try him on all kinds of meds to see what is best for him! Yureeka! I have a whole new kid !!!
I ask him at least once a day now, who are you and where is my son!
I do agree with Sunshine though,
You do need to get some support for yourself. Esp if you don't have the luxery of being ADD yourself. It makes it heard to identify. Heck I have it and he still drives me nuts!
Kids with Add are very hypersensitive. If you are not healthly, your "negative" feelings may aggrevate the problem more.

Take some time out for you and get some support for all the great folks here and in your community.

Take what you want and leave the rest!

For hyperactive kids, the ONLY therapy that works is a rewards based behavior management/home token charting program.

The state of the art now is to do Family therapy with those kids and use that as a means of teaching parents how to set up and maintain those programs.

One of the things that has come out in the research is that the rewards must be "immediate (or as close as you can get) "and happen at the "Point of performance,"which is where the behavior occurred.

As I've posted before, the very best book I've seen on that is The Parents Guide to Attention Deficit Disorder, by Stephen McCarney & Angela Marie Bauer (Hawthorne Press).

Its 100% practical and gives many suggestions about how to deal with whatever problem you're experiencing right then and there.

Lastly, even tho we're all guilty of this, punishment doesnt work to change long term behavior and is only effective when in the presence of the punishing agent.

There has to be a "balance" between consequences and positive reinforcement. All grounding doesn't work. It never has.

Also, a kid in 3rd grade is old enough to "take his lumps". Put the responsibility back on him. If he thinks he can do whatever the H he wants then back and let him for a week or so and see what he reaps.
I've done that with my kids and then help them pickup the pieces after and we talk about what went wrong and why it went wrong and teach them to learn from their mistakes.

That's how I did it when I was a kid.....with ADD (unknown to me then)...I wrote my parents a note that said I know should learn from my brothers and sisters stupid mistakes but I just don't get it. Ihave to make my own mistakes and learn from them. I was 10 and I had run away right after that...for nearly 4 hours. :D

You can't protect your kids you have to teach them to do it themselves. Even at the young age of 3rd grade. I mean how long do you think it takes to get him to stop beating his head against the wall when you TELL him to stop compared to if he beats his head against the wall...gets a headache and maybe starts bleeding. Some kids don't learn from proactive parenting...the learn from doing stupid things in a safe environment and then being shown how they could have avoided it so they know how to avoid it in the future.

Like I said, in a safe environment. You don't teach your kids how to swim by throwing them in a lake....or teach them that riding a bike in traffic is unsafe by having them get hit by a car!

Until you can let go enough to let him see the world he lives in come crashing down because of his behavior he will never get it! He will just think "mommy is on another of her tirades because she doesn't like me or she is stressed about work or she hasn't had sex."

Maybe I'm wrong....but consider the possibility that I AM right.

As I read your second post, I was struck with a thought: is it possible he's doing some of this because he gets attention? Negative attention is still attention. Perhaps your reactions are feeding into his need for attention, no matter if it's bad or good.

I urge you to find a family counselor as soon as possible. Sliding scale fees are available in many cases, you just have to ask to determine if you qualify.

I don't think the grounding is working. I was often grounded as a kid. One year, I missed winter (as in the whole season), because I was failing math. They didn't believe me when I said I really was trying. I resented them for not listening, and not believing what I said. I rarely recalled why I was being grounded to begin with. I agree with McTavish on the charts and goals/consequences thing. It helped at my house, but consistancy was key. My kids also helped create their own goals, and had a say in the consequences when constructing the chart.

Hang in there :)

Ok Just to let everyone know.....

Appl~~ I don't know if the grounding is working or not..I guess if it did he wouldn't be a repeat offender...

Just hope~~~ he was dx at 4 & again last yr..we had him on meds but that was a problem in it's self...& when we finally did get him to take them we didn't notice much of a diff. I have been here & have had many great & wonderful bits of advice given to me~~ I am udx ADD ..we've been to psychs but not to much avail.

Mctavish~~~We do have a chart set up with all his various behaviors/things to do for the day...it's one of those teacher incentive charts with all the boxes on it. I have it in sections with behaviors~~including being respectful/no whining/no yelling/ keeping hands to self etc...then his studies~~reading/homework/ spelling etc....then his life skills~~brush teeth/hair/shower/etc...& then his chores~~keeping his room /bath room tidy/ hermit crab fed etc...He gets a sticker for each one. At the end of the week I give him his allowance for his chores. He's a visual kid so this seems to work the best ~~so far.

Boredom~~~ we've tried the "if you can't take it, don't dish it out" route with him. He's had in school detention for it. No effect. It's has.had gotten to the point where his friends didn't want to play with him & were making excuses for why "they couldn't play". He got really mad but it didn't seem to change anything. His environment couldn't be any "safer", we support him in so many ways ...If my kid did the hitting his head against the wall example you wrote about ...It wouldn't take just that one time for hm to learn. I joke about it, but I always say he is the 7/10 kid. Meaning it usually takes him 7- 10 times of the repeatedly doing something before he figures it out that maybe..just maybe, that won't work. Some times it takes longer....

Sunshine~~~I value your opinion as a teacher (I have that right don't I?). You've always given great advice & suggestions. That being said..... It is possible he's doing this for attention..but I don't think so. At least not on my end..his dad's maybe. The only time I see his dad give his FULL attention to his son is when he's in trouble...Before you suggest I tell him this...I already have. It didn't go over very well. I too was grounded alot as a kid..for bad grades...bad behavior....etc...I don't believe in grounding for bad grades. If a kids is getting bad grades it's 1) b/c of the teacher's lack of teaching or 2) the child doesn't understand what is being taught. This..thankfully is not a problem with my son. His grades are at or above agerage. It's getting him to do his schoolwork that is the problem!!! When he does it it's done quickly & correctly.

If any one has ideas on some rewards for good behavior~~~please share what has worked for you..

OK, HERE'S SOMETHING I USUALLY ASK FIRST AND FORGOT!!! Sorry! :p

Have you tested to see if he has food allergies?

My 6 year old son turns into a monster if he gets Red dye. And you would be amazed at how much of what we eat has dye in it.

It took nearly a year for me to prove it to my wife. I figured it out because I read this book called "Allergies and the Hyperactive Child".

Whatever is happening with him is probably being amplified by something in the food he eats or the perfumed laundry detergent you use.

You can't put your kid in a bubble....but you can do things like read labels and eliminate foods from his diet that have ANY dye in them and any artifical sweeteners minimize the preservatives if you can't eliminate them
Get him on a controlled diet and remove air fresheners and scented detergents, shampoos, fabric softener from the house.

Oh yeah, and get the book from the library if you can't buy one. I bought one and still have it and refer to it now and then.

Like I said, it may not CAUSE the problem such add fuel to the fire.

He was tested for allergies at 2 b/c of his wheezing in the winter. They all came back clear. Now at 8 he hasn't had a prob w/ wheezing in almost 2 yrs. YEAH!!!! I will have to check out that book & do some research on what it may or may not be. Thanks....


OK~~~how do you ppl regulate the TV & video game usage in your homes??? Today (even tho he's "grounded") I told him if he read for 30 mins he could earn 30 mins of video game time.....I think this might become a regular thing. The only thing I'm scared about is that today it was easy b/c he was in a good mood but there's no telling what tomorrow will bring....or the next day.

I told him if he read for 30 mins he could earn 30 mins of video game time..... This sounds like a great plan.

The only thing I'm scared about is that today it was easy b/c he was in a good mood but there's no telling what tomorrow will bring....or the next day. Trust yourself. You are the parent.

ADHD kids, and some adults :D, do better with structure.

Self-esteem improves when you earn it.

Less stress + better self-esteem = less angry, acting out behaviour.

witsend -

I read that your son has a behavior chart. What does he get for appropriate behavior?
and how often?

Although you said you're not providing attention to your son's behavior, other people are. Due to this, your son's behavior is intermittently reinforced, which means his behavior will continue to occur unless everyone in his life is consistent.
I know it's easier said than done.

Imnapl made asked a great question earlier. If grounding works as a punishment for him, his behavior would have changed.

That's the whole thing about behavior modification. If the consequences placed do not change behavior, then the consequences need to change.

Positive reinforcement is a great thing. Ask your son what would motivate him to display appropriate behavior and use those things as positive reinforcement (AKA reward). Have him make a list for you. We can give you ideas, but only your son really knows what motivates him.

I suggest stepping up how often he gets positive reinforcement (in the form of an item/activity and/or praise), instead of every week, make it once a day - if not more. Anytime he displays appropriate behavior, verbally acknowledge it. It makes him think and be more aware of what he's doing.

Best wishes!!

Chaos~~~He gets a sticker.:o He doesn't really care that he doesn't "get" anything for his good behavior. It's more of a visual for him, and that works for him...I would like to give him something for say a week of doing what he needs to with out too much trouble. But I don't know what would be appropriate. If I were to ask him he would say something extravagant like Disneyland or some thing to stay home from school...which is not going to fly w/me....I already told him I would take him to Disneyland for a weekend if he read the books on the book list for Calif STAR test for his reading level....he has yet to start. Not much motivates him....He actually told me the other day that he doesn't want to amount to much....GRR!:faint:

He was tested for allergies at 2 b/c of his wheezing in the winter. They all came back clear. Now at 8 he hasn't had a prob w/ wheezing in almost 2 yrs. YEAH!!!! I will have to check out that book & do some research on what it may or may not be. Thanks....


OK~~~how do you ppl regulate the TV & video game usage in your homes??? Today (even tho he's "grounded") I told him if he read for 30 mins he could earn 30 mins of video game time.....I think this might become a regular thing. The only thing I'm scared about is that today it was easy b/c he was in a good mood but there's no telling what tomorrow will bring....or the next day.
Your response MUST NOT be dependant on his moods.
Your drive and determination and will to make it happen must be STRONGER than his when he is at his very worst. He's a smart kid. If you are inconsitent with anything he will catch you in it and that will be enough to give him justification for not following the plan.

IMPORTANT: Keep it simple. ONE thing at a time for several weeks. JUST ONE. So, if you are using read in exchange for game play then use that for at least 21 days and then see what the result is.

This is back to the basics of human behavior whether ADHD or not. It takes 21 days to build or break a habit. If you focus on ONE at a time you will master it.
Then add the fact that kids, ADHD or not, are learning to express their emotions. With an ADHD kid it is at least 4 times harder to get out what they are feeling.

So, if you try more than one behavior modification at a time with someone who has ADHD you will likely be creating a violent reaction....especially in a child whose only real emotional outlet becomes acting out.

It's a simple PAINSTAKING process that seems to take forever but you WILL see progress.

Think about it this way also: it's a lot easier on you when you focus only on ONE thing at a time and build upon each success.

Keep your perspective too! When things don't workout one day just laugh it off and say "Well, I guess we're back on day 1 of 21" and start over with the behavior modification. But stay with it until you make 21 days.

If you can stay with it....you will be modeling the behavior that you want him to achieve. So, resist the temptation to get frustrated when the process breaks down. It will! :D

Just laugh it off and start it over. Laugh it off and start it over. After a while the stuff that ticks him off so he wants to flip someone off will end up with him laughing it off and thinking about something else.

Holy crud, I forgot to mention the allergy thing!

You probably won't see any rash or wheezing or any of those "seasonal allergy" symptoms. Food allergies can commonly present themselves in many behavioral ways rather than physical. They mess with the body's ability to process just about anything.
Some kids will show physical signs that they're allergic to something...like peanuts....but even those kids might eat peanuts for years before it presents as an allergy.

Your son's physiology is changing....seemingly on a daily basis....so what he was or wasn't allergic to at 2 years old has no real bearing on what he might be allergic too NOW.

Hadn't thought of it that way...I'll mention it to his Dr....

So many thoughts...your son sounds so much like my oldest. If it's any help, he's now 15 and we are all still ALIVE! Hang in there and hugs to you.

Being the one in the middle is really tough! I know from experience and it is very important to watch out for your needs, too. I also know how IMPOSSIBLE that sometimes is. Vent here any time, regardless whether it makes sense or not. I hope you have someone outside of your immediate family who also supports you and will let you lean on them...sometimes just having a good cry and rant with a friend who knew our situation and supported us was able to re-charge me.

Talking to YOUR doctor may also be helpful. Exhaustion is a killer (I know). It may be that they can recommend a therapist for yourself or a support group. At a minimum, they are aware of your state and that's important!

On to the allergies...I agree that most family physicians aren't able to test for those odd chemicals, food allergies, etc. Try and get a referral to an "allergist" who can do far more extensive testing.

You could also try keeping a log of what he's eating and his behaviour. Maybe you'll see a pattern emerge that would give you a clue to a food or drink that aggravates his situation.

Also, the suggestion to keep it small is a good one. I (we) often over-estimated what our son was capable of doing. It can be so confusing when all of the "other" 3rd graders are doing _____ and ours couldn't. Was it us, was it him, was that he was capable and WOULDN'T do it or that he was not capable, where should WE draw the line? The agony of these questions I understand and, generally speaking, we most often over-estimated his capabilities.

Even at 15, he as the maturity levels of someone much, much younger combined with perceptual disorders and puberty. It remains a fine line, but time has brought improvement. Try and focus on him and not on what the other's are like. Painful, yes, but you will find lots of support here for all of those "looks" and "comments" from people who just don't understand.

As far as his swearing, I had a friend who's ADHD child did this and the more she punished the worse it got. Again, it sounds a bit like a 4-5 year old who is testing limits and it's painful because he isn't 4 or 5 and outside expectations hammer at us. With little tykes they usually recommend ignoring it...if they don't get a reaction, they eventually stop.

One suggestion that worked for us was to tell him that how he wanted to talk with his friends, in private, was his business, but that such language is not to be used around adults. When we heard something we simply told him to take it to a private area...we didn't want to hear it. It allowed him to use the language which was so "intriguing" to him, but let us react calmly.

Okay, I've really rambled here. The advice from others is all so good, but I needed to add my experiences to the list. I'm here for you...

HUGS

Kim

When we heard something we simply told him to take it to a private area...we didn't want to hear it. It allowed him to use the language which was so "intriguing" to him, but let us react calmly. Brilliant!

Every kid is different, and in the cases of mine, we had to do the chart on a day by day basis. You said your son is visual, right? My kids are, too. And the younger ones aren't reading yet, so they rely on the visuals. We made pictures on the charts that they could identify. Often, they colored them, themselves. The goals were daily, the rewards or consequences were also daily. My kids couldn't always handle waiting several days for a reward, so I tried to make the rewards within the same day. Gradually, we built up waiting for the bigger rewards, and these were marked on the charts. It became a counting thing for the kids still learning their numbers. It didn't always work. Some days, my son would be miserable, and argue about everything. (NO, the sky is NOT blue.) Some days, my daughter would still be dramatic (her latest thing is that allllll her friends are wearing make up. she's not even twelve yet, and her friends are not all wearing make up yet). The daily rewards and consequences helped on those days. They lost privileges for that particular day, but didn't cancel out completely the overall goal they were working toward. The next day, clean slate, and they start over.

I agree with Kima about you venting whenever, and no matter if it makes sense or not. You need to have that kind of outlet. I'm frustrated about your husband not being more supportive. He does contribute to the dynamics of the family, good or bad. It sounds as if you are trying everything, and I applaud you for trying so hard. :) It matters. He's lucky to have you for a mother.
(and yes, you got my profession correct :) )

I know what you mean by "ALLLLL My friends....." Our argument w/ that is "ALLLLL my friends have quads to ride around ..I'm the ONLY kid who doesn't have one!!!!!"~~~~YEAH RIGHT!!!! :D Do you have any ideas for daily rewards that are age appropriate?

Rewards are a very personal thing; you know your son and we don't.
Can you give us a list of what your son likes and we can vote on it? :D

We don't have a ton of money, and like Imnapl suggested, it's going to be different according to the individual kid. For mine, the reward for making the bed, carrying dirty clothes to the laundry room, having backpack prepared for the next day, etc. These types of basic goals...the reward could be anything from "you get to pick the dvd we watch together," to "you've earned 30 more minutes on your cdrom that allows you to make power points." It could be fifteen extra minutes with me, or who gets to ride in the front seat when we go somewhere. One big one was earning the ability to have a friend stay overnight. LOL and yes, it's ALLLLLLL or ONLLLLYYYY. It will be a miracle if we both make it through her teen years intact.

It will be a miracle if we both make it through her teen years intact. We did. :D

One thing that we did because the costs of "rewarding" can be enormous was to buy a lego and break it down into little packets. That way we could reinforce every day and he was building up to a "big" goal at the same time.

Another thing that worked for us was that he earned a piece of gum and collected the wrappers. We then had a stash of bigger rewards that he could turn in so many gum wrappers for.

Finally, as difficult as it was for me, sometimes the best reward was playing a game with him or taking him for an ice cream. It was hard because my anger, frustration, sadness, made it seem a bit hypocritical and I felt so "robotic", but it pushed me to new levels, too. Often the simple joy I could see on his face turned it around, so who knows who benefited more?

Just a couple of thoughts.

Kim

When I was a kid, my parents gave me all sorts of rewards when I achieved goals. It was the only way I got anything done. The ones that worked the best were "baking cookies with mom" or "Going for a bike ride with Dad", or "Going to the park with the family and everyone (mom and dad too) playing on the playground", or even just "reading with a parent".

Looking back, I don't think that what we did mattered very much, so long as it was time spent getting positive attention from mom and/or dad for a task well done, and time where me being a little off the wall, even with mom/dad around, was OK. I got things done on time and well, and so why would mom and dad get mad if I spent the bike ride riding off drops and using stumps as jumps? OK I digress..sorry.

And as an added bonus, I think that it reinforces that good behaviour gets good attention, and makes everyone (mom, dad, kids) happier TOGETHER. If my childhood experiences are typical, ADD families get into negative situations too often, and with ADD kids being over/hypersensitive, it can take a big toll on them.

Then again, I don't have kids, so I could very well be wrong. However, I was a kid not so long ago, so I might have something going for me :)

Then again, I don't have kids, so I could very well be wrong. However, I was a kid not so long ago, so I might have something going for me :)
Nope, I think you hit the nail on the head! Well said!

witsend,

we use a token system to reward the kids for time spent outside. they get 1 token for each 30 minutes spent outside. they turn the tokens in for 15 minutes of computer, t.v. show, or playstation time.

it reminds me of what you're doing with 30 min of reading = 30 minutes of t.v. game time.

so, the tokens are an immediate reward. the tokens i use are from a "telling time" learning set. so, my youngest (5yrs) likes to see if he's gotten "bingos" (that's what we call anything that end in "o'clock") my eldest (8yrs) likes having something to put in her purse ... :)

they can use their tokens after school when chores and homework are done.

we started doing this this summer when they wanted to spend too much time inside and i wanted them outside. it has worked well and they can now earn tokens for getting ready early enough to walk to school. but, i don't want to give them tokens for everything, it'll dilute their power ... ;)

when i was looking for a way to reward and reinforce getting homework done, i asked my daughter for ideas ... she wanted one-on-one time with me.

if one of your son's favorite things to do is play consule games, maybe having you sit down and play a 2 player game with him would work as a reward .... my son loves it when we do that togther.

i hope you got some ideas you could use from this thread. i know i have!

thanks everyone,

w.

Kim~~I like the gum wrapper idea..sort of the same as the game arcades & the tickets for prizes....but not as expensive!! =) I will have to get some gum that he doesn't know about & maybe some pennies to use as tokens..I was in his classroom this morning & I was trying to get ideas from the way his teacher does things...

A great magazine that has many creative ideas in it is called Instructor. It addresses kids kindergarten to eighth grade. You can find these in many college libraries. I have always pulled lots of ideas from there. :)

tahnks sunshine! I was beginning to wonder if there were any mags for parents of school-aged kids....I'll check it out...