If the world were not so conformed and wrapped around "what is normal" and such, would we have ADD? I don't know...sometimes, I contemplate on this...if people weren't around constantly pointing out our mistakes, maybe we wouldn't make them? or maybe we just aren't perfect? and it's those mistakes that make us different, but not ADD? Just a thought....I know it's prolly not true...but I like to think that way...:o

Nope. We would just have different people who would have to do things out of the ordinary to earn a living. ADHD is spotlighted in structured arenas, such as school and most desk jobs. Back when we had to hunt for survival, or grow food and build our own house (way back obviously) you did what your heart and brain led you to. Today we can't do that very often and our 'abnormal' tendancies are shown in contrast to the norm.

Personally I like being different. I just find it hard to do middle class American life sometimes.

Craig

Yes we would. ADHD is a proven brainbased,neurobiological disorder.

Yeah, I think we'd still have it, but I think we'd be a lot more accomodating of what helps each type of person function at their best. My dad took my 7 year old ADHD daughter canoeing. Her behavior was impeccable. He was amazed -- I wasn't. The circumstances were perfect for her. She was out in nature (her favorite thing in the world), she was mentally stimulated by the things she was learning about the wildlife, she was getting physical activity paddling, and she had one on one attention from someone who loved her very much.

I know every moment can't be that perfectly attuned to an ADHD person's needs, but if we structured our teaching and work environments more around enhancing people's strengths so that everybody had the opportunity to do what they do best with out ineffectual ideas of fair and normal and instead focused on unique giftedness and accomodating rather than judging weaknesses things sure would be more pleasant!:soapbox:

Yes we would. ADHD is a proven brainbased,neurobiological disorder.
I'm of the opinion it's only a disorder because it prevents us from functioning in a normal manner. And I have no doubt for some it's a very severe issue. But my point wasn't that the differences in our neurology would be gone, (far from it!) simply that they would not be spotlighted because we are trying to put our minds to task doing the mundane in order to fit into modern society.

Think about it- Attention Deficit Disorder, yet in our element we thrive, we are (generally) creative and see things people skilled in getting to work on time (for a generic example) cannot. In a society or reality that put us to work according to our true strengths and abilities, *we* would be the lucky ones. It wouldn't be a disorder as much as a gift.

But such a society is a ways off I think.

Be well,

Craig

People would still have the physiological make up. So, "Yes", the tendancy of ADHD would always be present. Remember, it's not a disorder unless it is affecting one's life in a negative manner. Once one get's a hold of the ADHD symptoms, think of it as the person is a "Recovering ADHDer".

Those with ADHD tendancies are in the minority. What usually happens when the majority rule? Things get designed, implemented and enforced the the majorities "way". It's just a fact of life in a democratic society. When you're in the minority, you have to develop your own processes to fit in with the majority (if you choose). Or you can go against the majority, which usually causes tension and stress, which could bring out the disorder of ADHD.

I think so. I still have ADD even when no one is there to see it - when I shatter my favorite coffee cup, put the chicken wings in the silverware drawer instead of the fridge or catch myself multi-multi-tasking again.

I also think, though, that many people have disorders of one kind or another. Maybe not in terms of neurology and brain chemistry, but psychological, hormonal and so on. I just think of my mother-in-law with her menopause issues, my husband with his major control issues, my mom with her anxieties and phobias. All loveable people (well, my MIL could be nicer sometimes, but that's another story, LOL) who I value, but who have their issues just like I do.

I think it's important to remember that ADD is not just about thinking differently. It's a real problem, although it does have some wonderful compensations in terms of creativity, empathy, and finding the courage to try something new.

That's just it...... we DON'T thrive.

We make lower grades and are more likely (78%) to quit highschool (this applies to untreated/medicated hyperactive-impulsive and combined types only).

Of the 22% that do graduate, only 5-10% of them go on to complete their higher education.

We have trouble holding/keeping a job.

We're more likely to be in (more serious) car accidents, and/or get tickets,lose our license.

ADHD has also been called "The world's most debilitating time management disorder." Among the Executive Function deficits caused by ADHD, are "Working Memory" and "Plan/Organize."

Working Memory is the ablity to hold information in mind long enough to complete a task.

Plan/Organize refers to planning for current and future task(s) completion.It is also critical to carrying out multistep tasks (sequencing) and mental arithmetic.

Thats only two of the impairments.

If you get a chance, please checkout Sandra Rief's 2003 book THE ADHD BOOK OF LISTS.

There's an entire section on the RISK FACTORS ;complete with references.

Remember, to have ADHD there must be Impairment.No impairment/No disorder. They go hand in glove.

I see what you're trying to say and I think it's interesting, as well as fun to discuss it.

If the world were not so conformed and wrapped around "what is normal" and such, would we have ADD? I don't know...sometimes, I contemplate on this...if people weren't around constantly pointing out our mistakes, maybe we wouldn't make them? or maybe we just aren't perfect? and it's those mistakes that make us different, but not ADD? Just a thought....I know it's prolly not true...but I like to think that way...:o
If that were all it took, it would be a pretty sad commentary on the human animal that we continue to have problems with it.

It’s pretty instructive to consider how much you’re personally willing to think ill of your fellow beings and their intent. We can’t accept that people have bad intentions, especially to the universal extent that people experience problems with having/being AD/HD.

That might not seem to be much of a leap, but it implies some pretty deep stuff, including some answers to your particular questions.

We are in fact different, and the difference is not an ordinary difference. This must be true, or people would be able to deal with the difference at least as easily as they deal with the fact that some of us wear glasses, or have blonde hair (for example).

As far as us not making mistakes if people weren’t constantly pointing them out, the answer is a bit more complex. Some mistakes wouldn’t occur if we weren’t as distracted by stuff like people kibitzing about what we’re doing (and how we’re doing it).

But this is an external behavioral manifestation of an internal mechanism that is part of the social impulse, a collection of low level drives and impulses that have the purpose of maintaining conformity among individuals in some very deep ways.

We have the same impulses as everyone else, and so we are, as the saying goes, indeed our own harshest critics. So even if everybody that would comment on our behavior were to be whisked away, we would still tend to imagine their criticism anyway, and be distracted by it without their actual intervention.

Just to confuse things more, some things we screw up because they’re pointed out as mistakes would cease being considered mistakes if people stopped pointing them out. We would be doing the same stuff, perhaps something that seems scatter-brained, but it would actually no longer be incorrect.

We don’t believe the situation will ever resolve in a simple way. In fact, everything we see points to AD/HD being a sign of an ongoing speciation event, one that is apparently at the cusp as we speak.

A speciation event is characterized by a particular property; it’s an emergent event, an artifact of a mechanism known as an emergent system. As such it’s entirely possible that it will all be over (including the shouting) in only a few years, perhaps as few as fifteen or twenty.

At that point, of course, your questions will be completely moot, and we’ll all be able to get on with the business of being without these outrageous interruptions.

Kay has two rules, both of which derive from the same stuff your questions address:

Always look for the benevolent view, especially of yourself;

and

We’re never more dangerous than when we think it’s OK to beat ourselves up.


--Tom & Kay

That's just it...... we DON'T thrive.

We make lower grades and are more likely (78%) to quit highschool (this applies to untreated/medicated hyperactive-impulsive and combined types only).

Of the 22% that do graduate, only 5-10% of them go on to complete their higher education.

We have trouble holding/keeping a job.

We're more likely to be in (more serious) car accidents, and/or get tickets,lose our license.
These stats are only that, though. Nothing about the raw stat particularly indicts our behavior.

For example, I know how to not have automobile accidents. But it involves an awareness of other drivers’ intent in a way not commonly thought possible; I literally read their minds.

Before you dismiss the idea, note that I have successfully taught Kay and both of our kids the same trick. And it works, for all of us: three ADDers and one (supposedly) normal.

Now, a part of the trick is understanding yourself in a particular way, especially being able to accept that you could have prevented something that was not your fault in any way. But it also involves realizing that other drivers are out to get you, at times, and I mean this in a very literal way.

Do other drivers actually seek to cause accidents involving my vehicle? Not exactly; it’s more like they’re willing to take chances and posture in ways that don’t have much margin of safety.

But they do this in recognition, conscious or not, of my own mental processes as I drive. They can see me as well as I can see them, and they don’t like what they see. (What else is new, eh?) So in a very real way, other drivers are seeking to make my driving experience as unpleasant (and consequently dangerous) as possible, principally because I have AD/HD.

This situation is strongly reflected in the stats you cite. The truth is that you can’t break those stats out into convenient sub-classes that fall into the pattern you would expect, like didn’t notice the light had changed (for example).

In that regard the insurance stats are as plain vanilla for ADDers as the rest of the population. We have about the same relative numbers of the same kinds of accidents. If it were really due to an underlying defect in our ability to focus or maintain attention, you would expect to see a significant skew in the pattern. The last time I checked, it wasn’t there; the only picture was the big one, AD/HD == accidents.

There are equivalent possible mechanisms for every other stat you mention, and it would be wrong to assume the problem in any case was us, or our AD/HD. We’re different, and that’s the only significance that you can place on this stuff. With the auto accident stats, we know exactly what’s going on, and it’s not us.

And we suspect the rest have a similar derivation.


ADHD has also been called "The world's most debilitating time management disorder." Among the Executive Function deficits caused by ADHD, are "Working Memory" and "Plan/Organize."

Working Memory is the ablity to hold information in mind long enough to complete a task.

Plan/Organize refers to planning for current and future task(s) completion.It is also critical to carrying out multistep tasks (sequencing) and mental arithmetic.

Thats only two of the impairments.
Again, I have to point out that these impairments only exist in a certain narrow context. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that there are many contexts in which no sign of impairment appears and that the same behavioral artifacts would be perceived in a positive light.

As an example, consider Hallowell and Ratey’s observation that ADDers are drawn to professions like medicine, because they're a good fit with our ability to think on our feet in fluid situations. The same abilities would probably spell disaster for an accountant.

In that sense, we have to consider the judgment that AD/HD is "the world's most debilitating time management disorder" can only be valid if we apply a certain arbitrary standard about what constitutes proper management of time.

It doesn’t matter a whit how many people are lined up ready to accept a particular definition; it can only be considered an impairment if we want to get in line, too, and then don’t do a very good job of playing by the rules.

That doesn’t mean that the rules are correct, or that we’re actually impaired in the sense that we have some defect. Trying to fit in and failing can certainly impair the quality of our life experience, and this is usually the only measurable impairment associated with having/being AD/HD. This is the stuff reflected in the stats cited.

But again, there is an element of opinion about how we should live that comes into play here.

In addition, the models of ‘Working Memory’, ‘Plan/Organize’ and ‘the Executive Function’ are only that, models intended to serve as a convenient basis for discussion and hypothesis. It is a mistake to assume such constructs are actually realized in neurons in our brains, or that a perceived deficit in function actually reflects a defect in the brain itself.

I’ll repeat that, because we need to be very careful about the mistaken impressions these terms create. We know of no research or proposed theory that establishes actual neural structures equivalent to ‘Working Memory’, or Plan/Organize, ‘the Executive Function’, or any of the related models in use.

Damaged brains exhibit defects that can be interpreted in these terms, but that doesn’t mean that the region of the brain sustaining the injury is literally directly responsible for the abstraction the term describes. These are logical fictions, abstractions constructed to help us imagine how the brain might function logically. It is not a literal description of the brain or any structure in it, and it’s a mistake to assume such structures must exist.


Remember, to have ADHD there must be Impairment. No impairment/No disorder. They go hand in glove.
But by the same token, be sure what it is that’s impaired. Most often, it’s the quality of life of a frustrated ADDer trying to meet a normal standard.

There isn’t any reason to assume that the impaired quality of life couldn’t or shouldn’t be improved by making some adjustment in the ADDers brain or way of thinking about the problem of conforming. Obviously, this is one way to help us adjust to standards that may not be as appropriate to our brains as to a normal brain. (And yes, we still take our drugs every day.)

But it’s equally compelling to consider that the standards are inappropriate, and the impaired quality of life experience might be just as well improved by choosing a more appropriate standard, where possible. (And yes, we also do that, big time.)

Most importantly we need to understand what we mean when we use the term impairment. In almost every case, we judge impairment by comparing the ADDer’s experience with that of a normal in a particular situation.

It’s the experience that’s impaired, not necessarily the brain that gives rise to it. An impaired brain can certainly give rise to an impaired quality of life experience, but an underlying physical defect is only one of many possible (and in many cases, more plausible) causes.

hey i just think people love to point out the difference of others to make them feel soo much better.

The stats are empirically based. Like all research,there's individual differences.

These are valid statements,though.

They are meant to cover ADHD as a whole.

If you mean ADD as in the binding or the label that is associated to the disorder not existing, then I would say it is possible.

What is a disorder?

* A state in which something operates in a manner other than what was intended.
-OR-
* A state in which something operates in a manner that conflicts with its context.

We can assume that ADD is a state, and many believe that this state is also a disorder, based on either of the above definitions.

So if we have a state in which something malfunctions, the way to change the state is to fix the malfunction.

If we have a state in which one's operation conflicts the environment, we could also change the environment. Although the problem is neurological, the malfunction becomes evident with the environment, so changing the environment can hide the malfunction.

People simply changing their views about ADD does not adequately change the environment to mask the malfunction. Fundamental changes would need to be made (being able to synchronize action without clocks, having automated ways of checking everything, distractionless environments when needed, etc.).

If one were to ask whether or not would the label of ADD would exist, then it is very possible that it wouldn't. But the disorder, according to both of the above definitions, would.

The stats are empirically based. Like all research,there's individual differences.

These are valid statements,though.

They are meant to cover ADHD as a whole.
I hope we didn’t give the impression we thought there was anything wrong or misleading about the stats. As far as we know, there’s no reason to suggest they’re flawed in any way.

We mean to engage the debate about what they represent, and whether the idea that they imply the expectation of an impaired life experience is something we should be willing to accept.

If anything, they seem more like a warning of what could be, rather than what must be. Looking at stats like that and then hearing Hallowell talk about how working in a reactive profession is not only fitting but personally rewarding should be a beacon to all of us, don’t you think?

I don’t know that there is any reason to accept the idea that we are doomed to a poor quality of life. Our ability to perform in certain specific scenarios may be impaired by some measures, but life is not a test, and tests aren’t life.

We can imagine any number of tests that would show normals in a poor light; that scene from the W. C. Fields movie in which he shuffled through a non-descript pile of papers to find a specific document comes to mind.

But an inability to perform in those circumstances (or something similar) isn’t judged to represent a significant impairment. We’re forced to conclude that the characterization of impairment depends solely on comparison to a deeper model of conforming behavior.

In that sense, the tests are carrying an unacknowledged set of further constraints that should be open to examination and debate, exactly as are the circumstances under which the determination of impaired performance is nominally made.

That said, I should say we have no problem with the idea that a particular person’s performance may be considered impaired by their AD/HD in certain circumstances, and that they should be treated with respect and compassion if they feel it impacts their quality of life significantly.

All good people deserve to feel good about themselves, and we’re certain everyone here is deserving.

--T&K

If you mean ADD as in the binding or the label that is associated to the disorder not existing, then I would say it is possible.

What is a disorder?

* A state in which something operates in a manner other than what was intended.
-OR-
* A state in which something operates in a manner that conflicts with its context.

We can assume that ADD is a state, and many believe that this state is also a disorder, based on either of the above definitions.

So if we have a state in which something malfunctions, the way to change the state is to fix the malfunction.

If we have a state in which one's operation conflicts the environment, we could also change the environment. Although the problem is neurological, the malfunction becomes evident with the environment, so changing the environment can hide the malfunction.


People simply changing their views about ADD does not adequately change the environment to mask the malfunction. Fundamental changes would need to be made (being able to synchronize action without clocks, having automated ways of checking everything, distractionless environments when needed, etc.).

If one were to ask whether or not would the label of ADD would exist, then it is very possible that it wouldn't. But the disorder, according to both of the above definitions, would.
I’m not so sure that these definitions are canonical, but that’s OK.

The idea that something about our experience can be characterized as a malfunction doesn’t seem to be established here, however. It looks like it just snuck in, and that’s part of the problem as we see it.

The characterization of the experience of having/being AD/HD as a state doesn’t seem particularly appropriate to us, either. It’s more correct to characterize being as a process, whether we’re talking about high-level experience (and the associated behavior from which it arises) or the neural mechanisms at work to give rise to the logical structures that support that experience and behavior.

It doesn’t really matter whether we’re talking about the AD/HD or the normal experience when we take this view, and that’s a good indication that it’s a pretty solid way to observe the system at work at all levels.

When you look at the processes at work in our minds as we have these experiences, you won’t see anything malfunctioning at all. The mechanisms on all levels must be very nearly perfectly functional for anything recognizable to occur. We can ‘see’ differences in how the AD/HD brain works as compared to the normal brain, but in neither case is there anything one could think of as a malfunction.

It’s like observing two vehicles from above, each taking a different route to the same destination. There are many ways that we could imagine criticizing one route as compared to the other, but the process of getting there can’t be considered incorrect or flawed as long as they both do get there.

That’s essentially what we’re looking at; the question of whether there is some malfunction is equivalent to saying one car didn’t get to it’s destination. What we see, on both a neural and high-level experiential level, is a nice smooth drive from one point to another. Nothing is wrong with the trip itself (in terms of how it progresses), or the equipment, or the competence of the drivers.

The defects we’re talking about are generally on the level of a criticism of the route one driver took. Perhaps it was a little longer, or used more gas, or took the car through a dangerous part of town. Regardless of these perceived problems, the system itself performed flawlessly, from the top most level to the very bottom.

We understand how the states you’ve identified seem to imply a malfunction, and also how that implication might seem obvious on a level that begs discussion. But the states describe the same exact behavior and experience that arises from the processes we see as these systems operate. The states must be equivalent to the direct characterization of the processes that give rise to them, subject to some arbitrary transform.

A crucial test of any transform is invariance of the fundamental nature of the system it operates on. If the transform that produces the view of the experience of having/being AD/HD as states were accurate and appropriate, it would correctly replicate the entirely harmonious nature of the processes that actually produce the behavior and experiences we’re considering.

The fact that it doesn’t indicates we need to examine the transform itself and correct the distortion it’s introducing into the view of the system.

Usually the deep expectation of normal behavior is at fault. It’s implicit in the definition of the mechanisms we see at work to produce the behavior and experience in the first place. Few people approaching this problem consider its effect on their models, which is exactly the behavior expected.

It isn’t until you begin to consider the view of experience as a process, rather than the states it might produce, that this inherent bias becomes obvious. From our perspective, it’s impossible to call what’s happening in the AD/HD brain a problem, and in particular the idea that there is a neural problem seems downright silly.

These systems are humming along just fine. It’s an interesting question why they look different in some views, but we really can’t indict a malfunction on any level. It just isn’t there, and if it seems like there’s a problem when you take a snapshot of the system’s state and compare it to a different system, there’s got to be something wrong with the camera.

--T&K

No problem. I understand.This is a cool topic.

It amazes me what can happen with a simple question around here I find the varied answers very well interesting.

One gives some stats about higher education I believe this would have been mctavish who did the precentage of high school graduates:

That's just it...... we DON'T thrive.

Of the 22% that do graduate, only 5-10% of them go on to complete their higher education.

We have trouble holding/keeping a job.

We're more likely to be in (more serious) car accidents, and/or get tickets,lose our license.

ADHD has also been called "The world's most debilitating time management disorder." Among the Executive Function deficits caused by ADHD, are "Working Memory" and "Plan/Organize."


The first high school states followed by the lower continueing to high education precenteges only tell me of the many people who have been actually diagnosed with ADHD only a small precentage like or are interested in school/class room settings

As some one who is also educated allow me to ask how many of these people who did NOT like school (graduate high school/go to college ect) now live on skid row being unable to feed or clothe them selves. Now I do not want states about saleries. Not all value money the same money does not equate happyness. One man may feel like a failure making $100,000.00 a year and live in a mansion. While a second person may feel successsful living in a small home in the counrty living on 10,000.00 yearly. Not functioning means not being able to obtain basic needs for living.....

Although I choose medication as a means of being successful in a would NOT of my making...having to live up to expectations made that are contrary to my interest.....I managed to arrive at this point in life with two degress.....am I more succesful than my partner!!!!

He fits your high school drop out rate and has never persued a college or vocational education. Although he was also incapible of holding down jobs working for others and felt himself a hopelss failure for some time. Upon a new dawning in his life he learned he hated working when others told him want he needed to do nor He did he time clocks poorly as well as office politics, or organization in a fasion that most would be able to idenify....Are you telling me this man is a failure ...based on all you figures he would be...

This leaves you to the task of explaining why this individual as able to earn as much money as registered nurses..... he wakes up when he wants, he goes to work when he wants, quites when he wants,,he is also able to feed himself, pay for housing and sell sand to the arabs....clearing about 45-60 thousand yearly re-selling stuff others throw away is a failure????? According to your states he is....yet he is happy and more than able to provide for himself and his family while saving this planets rescouces with his recycling business!!!!! We need more failures of this kind our planet would be sooo much better off!!!!!!

Refusing to change his brain chemistry so he would fit into others expectations. Instead he changed his world to suite his his abilities. He is able to function time management speaking effectivly enough to make deliveries and meet with customers ect!!!!!

This would have me agreeing with stable here:
But by the same token, be sure what it is that’s impaired. Most often, it’s the quality of life of a frustrated ADDer trying to meet a normal standard



If anything, they seem more like a warning of what could be, rather than what must be. Looking at stats like that and then hearing Hallowell talk about how working in a reactive profession is not only fitting but personally rewarding should be a beacon to all of us, don’t you think?

I don’t know that there is any reason to accept the idea that we are doomed to a poor quality of life. Our ability to perform in certain specific scenarios may be impaired by some measures, but life is not a test, and tests aren’t life.

and to complete this thought Iwill include it is often "normal" for people to place their expectations upon others. Because accepting differences in others as just differences isn't what society does readly. People who do not "fit the mold must be "disabled" The existence of your stats in and of them selves is a testement to this.

Some times this labling is due to some seperiority issues crybaby states

hey i just think people love to point out the difference of others to make them feel soo much better.



Highfunctioning makes a point here;
What is a disorder?

* A state in which something operates in a manner other than what was intended.
-OR-
* A state in which something operates in a manner that conflicts with its context.


Which to me boils down is one can take medications so we can functin in there world or we can do as my partner and change our world so we can function to suite ourselves in thier world.

Would we still have ADD if the world wasn't so "wrapped around normal" well no we would just be different than some of the other people whom we share this planet!!!!! But we wouldn't have a name for it!!!!! ;)

The operational definition of a "disorder" that is used the most is contained in the journal article International Consensus 2002.

It's available at chadd's website or Russ Barkley's.

It's by Rutger's ethics researcher James Wakefield (1997).

What it boils down to is "impairments in major life activities (of which school is one for kids)" that cause "harmful dysfunction."

One of the (many) definitions of ADHD is that it's a developmental disability, as the symptoms are "developmentally inappropriate (delays) " for that person's age group.

So what you're ultimately comparing the ADHD population to is the expected rate of graduation for the non ADHD population.

The best and easiest place to read about the risk factors associated with ADHD is The ADHD Book of Lists by Sandra Rief.

So what you're ultimately comparing the ADHD population to is the expected rate of graduation for the non ADHD population

This would mean failure only if graduation from schools were the ONLY qualfiying factor for sucess.

Maybe it's the defining of success that we differ upon!!!

Yes we would. ADHD is a proven brainbased,neurobiological disorder.

A proven brainbased neurological disorder BY linear thinking medical professionals who have defined what it means to be "normal" based essentially on what it really means to be part of the average or common populace.

So, I take your answer to mean that those aspects that make up ADHD are scientifically proven to exist.

I think that the question of this thread was geared more toward; what if the world wasn't a post industrial war machine that must have a linear framework to cope with life after the cold war for a majority of the population?

Would the "symptoms" or aspects of how the ADHD brainbased person works be seen as a disorder? I think not.
We are "out of order(disorder)" because we think and do things that are evolved beyond the linear sequential cog in the machine type mentality. We don't wait around for our orders before we take action. OR we don't want to wait for our orders and we see what needs to be done...but we have learned the pain of taking action without waiting for our orders...so we procrastinate....but the orders never come...and we become anxious...and we find it hard to speak because we don't want to say the wrong thing that might make people think that we are thinking about taking action before we get our marching orders. That would just be insubordination...and who wants to deal with that?

The problem is that we are in a society that is a linear cog in the machine society and if you don't fit into one of the slots that make the machine go (mis-fit?) you gotta fit somewhere and because the machine still has to keep moving it makes accomodations for the "mis-fits" by labeling them as "ADHD; a proven brainbased,neurobiological disorder" and it tries to figure out how we can be useful.

I'm not saying the machine is good or bad...it's just the way it is. At every evolutionary point in the history of mankind I'm sure you could find a set of "mis-fits" that actually became the norm. People like the Wright brothers...or even farther back...who was that chap that thought the Earth was round? Then there was that crackpot Louie who went and created the worlds first antibiotic.

I'm sure if we reach way back to when fire was first put to use by man it was some "mis-fit" that picked up a stick out of a pool of lava and started a bunch of other sticks on fire because it was too darn cold out one night.

I'm sure that if you look at ADHD in from this perspective you will begin to see where it is really an evolutionary step in the use of the human brain and it does cause a HUGE problem NOW. 150 years from now we (ADHD'ers) would all most likely seem like the linear thinkers of that time.

Consider this: maybe we are people of the future and we have to take meds to make us fit in to the present just like a soldier dropped into a foreign land must put chemicals in the water so they can drink it.

Who was that crackpot that wrote a book about time machines? Oh yeah, I remember, but he's not anywhere near as nutty as the team of scient_mis-fits that will actually make it work in 312 years.


ANOTHER THOUGHT:
On the vein of this thread about poor quality of life for peeps with AD/HD?
I've consistently earned an upper 5 figure income for most of the past 15 years and two of those were closer to $150k. So, it's not a disability as much as it is a mis-fit into society. I've managed to modify the way the machine works around me and make my quality of life pretty nice. I think the problem is trying to force your ADDself into the mold of linear society. It ain't gonna work.

In fairness to Robert, I should point out that there is a difference between discussing whether water or prevention is the best weapon to fight a fire, and turning the hose on the fire when you’re standing in it.

ADDers that are experiencing a problem with the quality of their experience of being do fit the definition of impaired, and they deserve our attention and compassion.

The definition could use a little clarification, perhaps, but that’s not really the fault of those that created it. These issues are difficult to delineate, and it sure seems to make sense that impairment must be due to some defect.

That leap is the problem, not the definition itself or those that apply it.


…to complete this thought I will include it is often "normal" for people to place their expectations upon others. Because accepting differences in others as just differences isn't what society does readily. People who do not "fit the mold must be "disabled"…


A proven brainbased neurological disorder BY linear thinking medical professionals who have defined what it means to be "normal" based essentially on what it really means to be part of the average or common populace…
These are excellent points, and they go directly to the heart of the problem we have discussing these issues.

There is a deeper force at work here, far more insidious than just an abstract set of expectations, or linear thinking on the part of medical professionals. The impulse to sanction nonconforming behavior is implicit in our own definition, as primal a force as the drive to procreate.

This is not generally recognized, and that failure is a feature of the system itself: we’re not supposed to ‘see’ the impulse in its most basic form. We all have mechanisms built in that effectively block our view of them, and their influence on our every thought and action.

So when we ‘see’ the shadow of these impulses and drives, as evidenced in the (apparently) unthinking attitudes of another, we assume that there must be something personal in their makeup that causes them to single us out unfairly.

It’s not personal. It’s human, and the impulse is designed to prevent us from losing that.

So: it goes far deeper than people putting their expectations on others, or any thought on the part of the medical community at all about what it means to be normal. We all feel empowered to literally force others to meet these standards, and the standard itself is so much a part of our sense of ourselves that it is indistinguishable from the background.

In a way, we could say that the primary definition of normal that we are struggling with is the background against which all of us see ourselves defined. If we eliminate it, or even change it in any way, we risk losing ourselves and everyone around us.

It’s important on that level, and we all feel it. That’s why Kay’s rule says We’re never more dangerous than when we feel it’s OK to beat ourselves up. We are literally our own harshest critics, exactly because of the hidden operation of these primal impulses.

But the important point is that this impulse is largely hidden from our ordinary conscious awareness. Because we don’t see it (or appreciate its strength) we logically conclude that the effects must be due to conscious, intentional behavior on the part of other individuals, or perhaps even the social group as a whole.

It’s easy to see why the discussion can become a little contentious, isn’t it? We work constantly to cut the other guy a break, forcing ourselves to account for the influence of these deep impulses even when our own impulses scream otherwise. That’s the essence of Kay’s other rule, Always look for the benevolent view, especially of yourself.

I'm saying that ADHD impairs a person's Executive Functions to the point where they quit highschool, make less money, have trouble keeping a job, get into more accidents.

For (untreated) ADHD children, there is a significantly higher risk of teen pregnancy, STD's and substance use disorders.

These data are OLD. Please read the risk factors associated with untreated ADHD.

(Untreated)ADHD is NOT a good thing.

I had the pleasure of going to dinner with a neurodevelopmental pediatrician from Plhiladelphia last pm.

Her primary expertise is ADHD. She's taken Joe Bierderman's ADHD class at Harvard.What's more impressive is that she took Mel Levine's class at UNC Chapel Hill over 20 yrs ago.

He pioneered the idea of "teaching to a child's strenghts."

Her talk was excellent and I'll be glad to post some of it when I get a chance.She explained the neuroanatomy part better than Ive ever seen it done before.

Stablie, you would have enjoyed it.


take care:)

It’s pretty instructive to consider how much you’re personally willing to think ill of your fellow beings and their intent. We can’t accept that people have bad intentions, especially to the universal extent that people experience problems with having/being AD/HD.


In my life, intent has been my biggest road-block. So many people are unwilling to suspend the close-minded thought process they beligerently call logic, and refuse to believe my intent just might have been not to screw up.

Our wonderful planet has an awesome history of such fine examples of logic and reason. One only has to mention religion or politics to start what may end up in nuclear conflict ( ok, thats a bit of a stretch, but I like to think BIG ) So I suppose a little misunderstanding regarding my intent is a little drop in the grand scheme of life.

BUT ITS A BIG DEAL TO ME ! ! !

And besides, sometimes my left of center action provides me entertaiment watching the normals try to figure me out. My definition of warp theory is a little different, but I suspect there's a few here..... Whats the question ?

I am not a victim ! !
I am a free man ! !

Smoochy

Consider this: maybe we are people of the future and we have to take meds to make us fit in to the present just like a soldier dropped into a foreign land must put chemicals in the water so they can drink it.
This is an interesting idea. Maybe nature is getting ready for some big event where the "Hunter" (ADHDers) will help keep the human race alive again and the "Farmer's" (linear thinkers) methods will stop working.

Perhaps a return to the car analogy would be the easiest way to delineate this point.

There are some aspects of the common model of Executive Functions that are analogous to direct control of the driver’s abilities, or the condition of the vehicle itself. All of this will, of course, affect the drive, and indirectly the route taken, too.

There are other aspects of Executive Functions that are on the level of criticism of the route taken, a sort of overview of the process of driving from above. In this analogy, we see ADDers are taking improper routes, and are (for example) apparently unable to control their planning and the execution of those plans to take a better one.

Understanding of the processes by which conscious behavior arises allows one to dismiss any idea that there is a defect in the driver or vehicle, or in how either is constructed or maintained. If it works at all, it’s working the way it must. This is a fundamental truth about the function of neural structures when we’re considering high-level behavior.

So (for example) something like failing to understand an advanced mathematical concept must be viewed as normal and correct function of correctly designed neural structures. It’s not even a failure of the process; in the proper view, it’s merely a process that is incomplete.

Thus, the view (and criticism) of the route taken from above is all that’s left to assign to the Executive Functions, and it does seem reasonable to think in terms of this sort of ‘overview’ of the self as the seat of some sort of executive control. Everybody from the Greeks through Freud and on to Barkley and beyond has their model of this little inner ‘ubermensch’.

But this, too, is not a feature of any real neural structures. More so than the appearance of control on the levels at which the drive takes place, these ‘uber’ functions are illusions generated by the process of trying to understand the behavior they generate.

Every time we take a drive, it appears that we’re making command decisions about the route we’ll take. But it’s not so; the choice of route is also implied in the functions that allow us to drive. The overview is an illusion, too. The Executive Functions don’t exist, except in the imagination.

Maybe the best way to explain it is this: we don’t think much about the pattern of streets and highways that we drive through; they’re defined by default, as an essential element without which the entire abstraction of driving is meaningless.

But they do, of course exist, and in terms of the analogy to the brain this is comparable to the fact that we have a natural expectation that behavior is possible, naturally occurring in an appropriate context. Like the streets and highways of the example, there are much deeper implications to the existence of the context than we are normally aware.

The definition of any particular route is implicit in the pattern of roads available to travel. The ‘planning’ of the route taken is implicit in the context and process of driving, as much an artifact of being there and doing it by taking the roads available as any other part of the experience.

Make no mistake: we are clearly saying that nobody’s in charge, no hand sits at the helm. To most people this isn’t a very stable view, but it does have the charm of being accurate. This is the way our brains really work; the control of the whole is also distributed, inherent in the structure and function itself.

Control is real, but it isn’t implemented in any discrete Executive.

When we observe high-level behavior, it does seem self-evident that there must be some sort of ubermensch making executive decisions. But this is only an artifact of the process of trying to interpret the behavior, a very compelling one, to be sure, but an illusion nonetheless.



I'm saying that ADHD impairs a person's Executive Functions to the point where they quit highschool, make less money, have trouble keeping a job, get into more accidents…
…and all we’re saying that while this stuff indeed happens, and is certainly related to having/being AD/HD, the characterization of the Executive Functions is deeply flawed.

We’re not knocking your models, or how you apply them in your work. We’re trying to unravel the language that has become embedded in the subject, because it has implications we’re not considering (other than by complaint).

In our opinion, the common understanding of these models needs to be corrected before we place too much emphasis on the apparent significance of how we’re impaired, and whether that implies an impairment in the (apparent) Executive Functions.

We addressed this recently in another thread, dealing with attention. The descriptions are more specific than we can be here, and may aid in understanding the counter-intuitive way that real neural structures function.


(Untreated)ADHD is NOT a good thing.
To be sure…


I had the pleasure of going to dinner with a neurodevelopmental pediatrician from Philadelphia last pm.

Her primary expertise is ADHD. She's taken Joe Bierderman's ADHD class at Harvard. What's more impressive is that she took Mel Levine's class at UNC Chapel Hill over 20 yrs ago.

He pioneered the idea of "teaching to a child's strengths."

Her talk was excellent and I'll be glad to post some of it when I get a chance. She explained the neuroanatomy part better than I’ve ever seen it done before.

Stabile, you would have enjoyed it.


take care:)
Dang, and we’re from Philadelphia, too. I’m sure we would have enjoyed it.

We don’t deny significant anatomical features exist, but we’re pretty solidly certain that the common interpretation of their function is skewed by the perceptual problems we described above.

Perhaps we should refer to Executive Functions as ‘virtual’ functions, arising as a consequence of the normal operation of the brain, but not necessarily supported by any specific structure.

That way, we could work productively in conceptual terms with the problems associated with these virtual functions without inadvertently falling prey to the idea that a defect in some underlying structure is necessarily the cause.

We’re not trying to nag, but the implied logical chain functional impairment --> physical impairment --> physical defect is dragging some ADDers down unnecessarily. We don’t need that; it’s only misdirecting our focus.

Thanks again.

I understand. I was trying to clarify what I said in response to meadd823's post.

As some one is supposed to be moderating and keeping on subject. I will re-post ofiginal question not necesarily for you guys but for me and others who read through the many complex answers that have been given

If the world were not so conformed and wrapped around "what is normal" and such, would we have ADD? I don't know...sometimes, I contemplate on this...if people weren't around constantly pointing out our mistakes, maybe we wouldn't make them? or maybe we just aren't perfect? and it's those mistakes that make us different, but not ADD? Just a thought....I know it's prolly not true...but I like to think that way...


I believe that although the differences in our neuro chemistry would still exist the "lable" of ADD would not be. What is NOT a mistake in privite would be a mistake in front of others (I'll leave you to your own imaginations here)



I understand. I was trying to clarify what I said in response to meadd823's post.


I appreciate this and do agree if some one is struggling and there is a way to relieve said difficulty then by all means we should exercise all availble options to find one that will work.....

my point is that #1 what is considered as sucessful to you may not mean success to me. You used ability to graduate high school and obtain a higher education as a means of measuring success. Although yes it is a form of success my point was that it is NOT the only means of success. That just because one does not obtain a college degree does not mean they are doomed to a life of poverity and failure. Education isonly one means of success....

Now if I remember right you mctavish do child psycology therefore you prespective would be geared toward educational success...however....understandible.

I have been exposed to many who are not formally education in schools and have been made to feel they are doomed to a life of failure because they were unable to tolerate sitting in a class room and did want to have their brain chemistry changed by drugs just so they could function in a pre-determined manner by following pre-set steps!!!!!It isn't your prespective I dis-agreed with it was the over all application of determining success in educational measurements only leaving no room for alternitive ways of obtaining success......

Beside leaving ADHD un-treated is also an ambigious term in and of itself however you did not expound. Now medicatins are one way of treating ADHD only part at that,,education on the disorder as well as education about self are two more components....

Now instead of taking pills to change an ADDers brain chemistry some have decided to leave their brain chemicals alone and mererly change other aspect of thier enviroment..some make more ADD friendly systems, others go as far as my partner and change his entire employment world to accomedate his ADD....

He is as successful as managing his ADD as I. We have both accomedated our brain chemistry. I changed my chemisrty to function in a non-ADD world. He changed his external world to accomedate his brain chemsitry...both avenues work.....both in reality treat ADD.....

Just an attempt to remind of the varying degress in which function can be obtained. I agree with Stable here


It’s easy to see why the discussion can become a little contentious, isn’t it? We work constantly to cut the other guy a break, forcing ourselves to account for the influence of these deep impulses even when our own impulses scream otherwise. That’s the essence of Kay’s other rule, Always look for the benevolent view, especially of yourself.


Too many circular people being made to feel bad because they weren't born squares. Squares are good when designing refigators but not such a functional design for a car tire!!!!!!!!

Tammy, you wrote ".....both in reality treat ADD....."

I don't get what you mean. Taking meds to alter your brain chemistry is treating ADD. Finding or creating an environment that ADD works well in is NOT treating ADD.

Please explain this thought a little more please. I'm not clear on how you see the two as the same.

If we apply the same logic to...say...a cashier at a grocery store who blows out a knee.....would having surgery to fix the blown knee cap be treating the knee injury? Yes.
Would switching jobs to being a computer programmer be treating the knee injury? No.

So, what am I missing? Really, I'm trying to understand this point.

Tammy, you wrote ".....both in reality treat ADD....."

I don't get what you mean. Taking meds to alter your brain chemistry is treating ADD. Finding or creating an environment that ADD works well in is NOT treating ADD.



Taking meds doesn't treat ADD. It masks it. If it treated it, the ADD itself would get better over time from taking the medication.

Hmmm...wow! You are VERY intelligent people. I am amazed by your interpretations. Took me all night to read them, but wow! Thanks for elaborating on my topic..

Thanks for elaborating on my topic..


Tis amazing huh??? Now if you were looking for detailed explianations not one of us would have complied. Scense you weren't well hail hail the gangs all here!!!! The dyslexia of life cause it all comes out backwards!!!


originally posted by highfunctioning:
Taking meds doesn't treat ADD. It masks it. If it treated it, the ADD itself would get better over time from taking the medication.


Hmmmm well meds are a treatment for ADD like insulin is a treatment for diabetes, in that it gives some control over the "disease" but does not provide a cure. The minute one quits taking insulin the blood sugar returns to it's elevated state. Once we quit taking ADD medications our sysmtoms return.

Antibiotics cure some bacterial infections in that by after taking the medications for a specified period of time the infection ceases to be a problem.The infection is gone even after the medications are discontinued!!!!!


Originaly posted by FightingBoredom:
I don't get what you mean. Taking meds to alter your brain chemistry is treating ADD. Finding or creating an environment that ADD works well in is NOT treating ADD.

Please explain this thought a little more please. I'm not clear on how you see the two as the same.

the defination of treatment by Websters:
care by procedures or applications that are intended to relieve illness or injury...


Now taking medication that changes our neuro transmitters behavior (changed brain chemistry) we relieve the symptoms of ADD. Yes we still have ADD but the Temporary changes in our brain chemistry provide symptom relief temporarily....

Okay changing your enviroment also provides relief of ADD symptoms. Lets take my partner Gary for instance...he had difficulty with getting to work in time, he also liked doing things his own way,didn't like "having to conform" to some one elses expectations, he had a a lot of motivation and energy but little tolerance for social politics and BS.......

By working for him self Gary has eliminated these problem symptoms of his ADHD..no he still can't get to work at a certain time however there is no boss/time clocks to care there fore this is no longer a problem...he doesn't have to answer to a boss nor tolerate social politics...so easily furstrated with office politics and BS is no longer a problem. He does have customers and his products do have to serve thier prepoius but poor quality work was not amoung his problems only being told what to do and when to do it ......but by changing his working enviroment he has eliminated the problematic aspects off his ADD. Yes he still has ADD but it is no longer preventing him from functioning.....

..is that not the same reason we take medications.

Don't we take medications to increase our ability to function....changing his work enviroment allows him to increase his ability to function as well!!!!!! Thus it is treating his ADD just like my medications treat mine!!!!

While I do not believe that everyone who says they have ADD/ADHD actually have it. What I do know is that I was throughly tested and proven to have this neurological disorder. The diagnosis explained a lot, but nothing compares to hearing what others who have ADD say about themselves. I NEVER get caught up in the notion if it is real or not. It is real, it ruined my career before I was diagnosed, and I am now looking for a career that is ADD/ADHD "friendly".

Hmmmm well meds are a treatment for ADD like insulin is a treatment for diabetes, in that it gives some control over the "disease" but does not provide a cure. The minute one quits taking insulin the blood sugar returns to it's elevated state. Once we quit taking ADD medications our sysmtoms return.

.......

Don't we take medications to increase our ability to function....changing his work enviroment allows him to increase his ability to function as well!!!!!! Thus it is treating his ADD just like my medications treat mine!!!!



That's all very true. Respective of the definition you give, doing anything, from taking meds to changing the environment, is considered treatment. But they are treatment at the same level. They do not fix the fundamental problem or problems involved. The meds help increase neurotramitter levels, but they don't affect what is causing the lack of neurotransmitters in the first place. Just like insulin injections do not cause the pancreas to start secreting the correct levels of insulin in each situation.

Those are all excellent points.

I have to say that the "linear thinking professionals" are some of the world's leading experts on ADHD.

Their not having ADHD means nothing in terms of whether the research is accurate;which it is.

ALL of what I posted is researched based and is the current mainstream accepted state of the research.

I would encourage you (and everyone else) to read and learn as much as you can.

They do not fix the fundamental problem or problems involved. The meds help increase neurotramitter levels, but they don't affect what is causing the lack of neurotransmitters in the first place. Just like insulin injections do not cause the pancreas to start secreting the correct levels of insulin in each situation.


Correct...this was my point the difination for treatment was Websters!!!!!!



Their not having ADHD means nothing in terms of whether the research is accurate;which it is.

Never questioned that the gene factors....scientific data.... ect....they don't have to actually have ADHD to research this....



ALL of what I posted is researched based and is the current mainstream accepted state of the research.


I agree 100% you do excelent in this area I have read your post and still refer to some of this data myself......this data is relevent in the discussion of neurological differences....I keep ADD research material on hand , update and refer to it often....of this I never doubted......


I would encourage you (and everyone else) to read and learn as much as you can.


Actually I am a firm believer in education being one of the most important aspects of treatment for any condition, disease, disfunction, difference, Education is the only way any of us can make a truly informed decision about the best treatment plan for us as individuals......plus education will keep us from falling pray to unfounded claims, arms us against mis-information and scams!!!!!!!


I have done my own research and have for many years...see I have been diagnosed with ADHD for over 12 years......when I was diagnosed there was little information out about adult ADD and even less about women and ADHD...

so please understand why in my persepective:
I not only believe in education along the lines of scientifiac data and medical science but also educationing your self about your self and the effects ADD/ADHD has upon us individually

All the sceintific data inthe world won't help ADDers with there differences nor will the research data increase our ability to function as a productive parts of society. If the learning about self is left out...then fuctioning will remain less than optamal........treatment success formula:
education + self awareness = benifit(thus treatment)!!!!


There are people who have choosen not to take medications. Those whom are in recovery programs for addiction and do not wish to ingest any mood/mind altering chemicals often feel an adversion to the daily ingesting of a medication that alters there brain chemistry. This for them goes against there soberity "programs".....this is only one example where enviromental change as opposed to chemical changes may be sought!!!!!


I never refuted your research nor your data. I was only challenging your focus on measuring success by means of formal education only!!!!!

There are people who have choosen different routes than formal education to achieve success... just like some people have found success in changing thier enviroment instead of taking medications as a means of treating ADD...different approaches work for different people......




No ADD did not exist before "civalization" but the brain chemsrty may very well have!!!!!

…The meds help increase neurotransmitter levels, but they don't affect what is causing the lack of neurotransmitters in the first place. Just like insulin injections do not cause the pancreas to start secreting the correct levels of insulin in each situation.
Unlike diabetes, which is a pretty well understood physical functional deficiency, AD/HD cannot be interpreted in such simple terms.

AD/HD is a functional difference defined purely in logical terms. Although there is certainly a physical neural structure that supports the logical functions we analyze when we talk about or study AD/HD, there is no direct relationship to a simple deficiency like we know exists in diabetes.

Neither you nor anybody else out there knows that there is a lack of neurotransmitters in the AD/HD brain; there is no research that shows this. What has been shown is an indirect indication that there may be a difference in the relative availability of neurotransmitters in the AD/HD brain as compared to the normal brain.

But there is no research that has actually measured neurotransmitters in active healthy human brains under ordinary conditions, and there is certainly no scientific reason to apply terms like ‘lack’ or ‘deficiency’. Everything about the idea that AD/HD should have a simple physical etiology like diabetes is based in deeply held assumptions that fail at the first light of day.

This is where the good science turns bad, and despite the good that Robert and his peers can do with the framework that science has provided us, further progress will be frustrated until these underlying incorrect assumptions are dug out and discarded.

See how the idea that there is a difference gets transformed into deficiency by the incorrect association to the mechanisms of diabetes? This is why we hammer on the point that you can’t interpret the mechanisms of neural structures in the familiar cause-and-effect way that is suitable for stuff like diabetes.

The brain’s activity is, in some ways, entirely counterintuitive. No understanding of something like AD/HD can progress very far without first gaining a grasp of how the engine driving the show actually works.

Comparing AD/HD to diabetes is completely incorrect; if you see a parallel in your own mind, it’s a valuable clue to where your models are flawed. Chasing down the assumptions with brutally honest questions (How do I know…?) shouldn’t take you too long, but forming a new, more accurate framework could take a while.

As the Amish say, patience furthers.

No ADD did not exist before "civilization" but the brain chemistry may very well have!!!!!
Another interesting comment. Where does this stuff come from, anyway? (grins…)

Brain chemistry certainly did exist before either AD/HD or civilization. But both the rise of civilization and the rise of AD/HD are connected in a particular way: they are apparently similar emergent events.

The emergent event that gave rise to modern man ultimately created the opportunity for modern civilization, first through the creation of the human social group (which is intimately connected with our ability to use language, and thus serves a very different purpose than other social groups in the animal kingdom) and then through the codification of the formal nature of larger groups as smaller groups coalesced.

That original event, defined by the sudden emergence of the ability to communicate verbally in complex abstract terms, is the demarcation of the appearance of our species. The appearance of AD/HD is an emergent event of even greater complexity and potential impact.

It’s entirely reasonable to expect it to result in the rise of what will ultimately come to be recognized as a new species, transcending the one created when humans acquired language.

And brain chemistry appears to have everything to do with it, although it’s likely only a long, slow and relatively small shift over the last five to ten thousand years. We see no evidence of a major difference, or anything that could be called a defect. The mechanisms required to produce an emergent system are in place and functioning in all of us as we speak, and they don’t require much difference at all to drive them.

They sure make a bang when they go off, though, which is why most researchers instinctively look around for something big at work. They won’t find it, and it’s not required; emergent systems are somewhat counterintuitive in the same way that neural mechanisms are.

Like I said, you make an interesting connection. How did you figure it out?

…brain chemistry appears to have everything to do with it, although it’s likely only a long, slow and relatively small shift over the last five to ten thousand years.
Incidentally, this small shift we posit may very well be a natural response to the differences in our brains, rather than the cause of the differences. It may be more of an indicator than an instigator.

The differences in the AD/HD brain are primarily related to the fact that we are beginning to take advantage of a property of logic that occurs in nature. Our brains are evolving the ability to make use of this aspect of logic, but it has been around as long as the Universe. It arises by the existence of physical reality in the form that defines the nature of nature itself.

The advantage available to us in using this additional logical property in constructing our internal models is all that is necessary to drive the process. The changes in brain chemistry may just be along for the ride, gravy on top of (and reflecting) the underlying logical changes.

Meadd,


That's cool. I understand and agree with what you said.:)

What I try to do is keep the Forum members abreast of what the mainstream/accepted state of the art research is saying.

The thing about research is that it could change tomorrow.If it does, my concern is to stop using what doesnt work in my practice and switch over to what does.

Ive said this before, but the level of sophistication among the Forum members on ADHD is EXCELLENT.

Sometimes I wish my colleagues would pick up on some of it. You guys are very impressive.:)

In all fairness tho, I'm the only one who has ADHD and who spends as much time on it.

Some of the research might not apply to individual issues. I use it to educate parents and point them in the direction of what works.

Thanks for the feedback.

take care

mctavish23 (Robert)

In all fairness tho, I'm the only one who has ADHD and who spends as much time on it.
I think this gives you (and those with ADHD) the upperhand.

Your colleagues have the ability to leave work and leave ADHD until tomorrow. They can focus on other tasks (family, chores, hobbies). You (we) have to live with this 24 hours a day. We know what works and what doesn't and can share this knowledge with others diagnosed with ADHD. Those without have to rely on what others tell them. Then they can make the best decision if something is effective or not. Hey, we eliminate the middle-man. :)

Don't forget that thing called "hyper-focus". Sometimes it can be a good thing. :D

In all fairness tho, I'm the only one who has ADHD and who spends as much time on it…
You’re the only one?

I thought I was the only one,

and Kay thought she was the only one,

and round and round and round it goes…


* * * * *

Really, if our work is anywhere near to on the mark, literally everybody ‘has’ the potential to evidence AD/HD. Whatever changes are involved are in place in the entire population; the effects have been percolating away for thousands of years, and we’ve been busy compensating for them as they grow more and more omnipresent.

This is the nature of an emergent system: some small, relatively slow change that accrues because a mechanism exists to counter its visible effect. You don’t begin to see signs of the change until it has grown to the point that the compensating mechanism is overloaded, ready to break.

The countering mechanism is the impulse to conform and to seek conformity in others; we’re all willing to fit in as well as we can, because the alternative isn’t thinkable. We all need to be recognizably human, to belong to the big club, to meet the expectations of those that care for us and ultimately, ourselves.

The world is populated with individuals that have faithfully constructed an image of the normal human face to present to a world that uniformly presents the same mask. We believe that those masks are about to come off, as we all begin to realize that the thing we’re trying to portray has been gone for centuries.

Or maybe they’ll be blown off, and the whole thing will be mildly traumatic. We don’t know; that’s the nature of an emergent event – you know it blows up, but you can’t predict how. All we can be sure of is that we will all once again embrace a single model of cognition, this time utilizing metalevels.

The advantages are compelling; virtually every admirable historical act by an individual is associated in some way with a single piece of reasoning that takes advantage of metalevels. From the dawn of civilization, to the ancient Greeks, to Einstein and beyond, this pattern flows through recorded history.

Kurt Gödel’s magnum opus was essentially a proof that metalevels exist and are significant in an ordinary world. He saw this as a failure, but the brilliance of his approach is unmistakable; he couldn’t have achieved any other result.

Metalevels let us step out of the problem and rise above it, to a point where we can see why the solution isn’t visible from within it’s context. That single extraordinary act of perception gives us the understanding we need to transcend the limitations that otherwise keep us grinding away with no end in sight, and in some cases, no end possible.

* * * * *

So maybe what we need is to be a bit fairer to ourselves. If you have AD/HD, it’s because you’ve risen to the challenge to embrace and examine the potential we all share, and begun to explore what it has to offer. It’s a journey that even at the earliest steps leaves us profoundly changed, and how could you not be consumed with the effort to understand it?

We certainly are…

I'm simply speaking of my colleagues who do the same thing I do and don't have ADHD (believe me).:)

The bottom line is that I want them to GET IT RIGHT in diagnosing it.If my personal struggles can lead to a better understanding, then something positive happens.

It's frustrtating trying to get them to let go of old habits. I know they'll come around because the level of quality and competency is there.

A great deal of what I do is parent education. In many instances you have to help allay their fears, etc.

With educating other professionals, it's not that difficult provided I can get them all in the same place at the same time. We're scattered across several offices.

The idea of becoming an accredited internship site is exciting.We will now be presenting different workshops and inservices as a part of that.

Everyone has their own niche in terms of their strengths. It gives us all an opportunity to learn from each other.

The main thing (for me personally) is that I respect all of them and know that they'll always do an excellent job.

In my 28 + years in the profession, our current group is the best I've ever worked with (anywhere).


We are what is called a Rule 29 Community Mental Health Center.What that means is that for our different programs, there must be so many licensed providers, as well as psychiatrists (or clinical nurse specialists). It's complicated but it provides an excellent strucuture.For example, whe have to have an all staff meeting weekly to discuss cases.Then the clinical staff meets twice a month to do that on a smaller basis.

I'll share this with you, we have Peer Review (for our own work) once a year. That's where a rotating team looks at random samples of your charts.

We also have random reviews by the state regarding Rule 29 compliance, as well as different Managed Care companies.

For one of the larger ones, whe've consistently scored the best in the state for Rule 29 clinics, of which there are quite a few.

(Private practices do not get reviewed by anyone).

Our Medical Records Administrator goes over the charting requirements for our Minnesota Rule 29 Community Mental Health Center, as well as HIPAA and other regulations.

Then a group of colleagues takes one or two of your cases and goes over them. In the process, at least 2 psychological evaluations are reviewed.

I have aways had excellent Peer Reviews, including more than one "Perfect" rating.
This time I was curious what would happen because of all the cognitive impairments I'm struggling with due to my meds not working.

I still did very well and even received another "Perfect" score for one chart.The main thing tho is that everyone of my colleagues commented on how my dictation had changed and that they could see that I was struggling (cognitively) . They've all worked with me for years and have read my work many times, so this was "different."

My feedback was to thank them for the insights on what I needed to do for those particular charts.

In addition, I used the corrections as an opportunity to teach them about "impairments in major life activities."

My clinical skills remain excellent. My ability to do my paperwork has suffered.

I was also able to point out how what I was going thru would be so much worse for a kid who didn't understand what was happening.

You could see it gave them a deeper insight, which helps put a positive spin on things.


Thanks for the excellent feedback. I enjoyed it.

Mctavish23,

Thank you for sharing with us. :)

These discussion are always great. They are a perfect example of where we are today (Mctavish23 post) and where we might be headed (Stabile posts).

I hope you get your medication situation straightened out. :( Even though you still received a perfect score on your review, I am sure it had been a real struggle for you to complete the work (as opposed to when the medication was working).

Thanks to Stabile, I have been looking up information on emergent systems/events. Really cool stuff. Ahh, I sense a hyper-focus shift coming on. :eek: Where is my Adderall! :confused:

Thanks.

I agree and thank you stabile. Very thought provoking.

That is such a great situation, Robert. You've really worked hard for your success, and it shows. Very cool. We’re jealous. (grins…)

* * * * *

Tim, let us know if you find anything really good out there on emergent systems. There’s a lot more emphasis on chaos theory these days, which is a sort of compliment to emergent system theory.

In a sense, chaos theory tries to develop methods that enable you to look back into an event to find information about the initial conditions. Emergent systems theory works from the other end, with methods that allow you to follow how an event unfolds from certain initial conditions.

Much of the best emergent systems work is associated with cultural anthropology, in particular research into the speciation event that gave rise to modern humans. We haven’t looked in a while; there’s quite a bit of statistically based evolutionary psych stuff going on right now, which is more aligned with the chaos theory work.

We have little use for tools that look back into chaotic data. Our work has always been first principles based; we started with behavior, by asking ‘what if’ questions about the logical structures that support cognition, and then were immediately drawn to the level below to look at how neural structures support that logic.

So existing neural network theory gives us a constraint on the lower level that serves as an independent validation of the logical structures we posit, and (of course) they must also correctly give rise to the behavioral artifacts we’re interested in understanding.

We’re kind of caught in the middle, and those hypotheses that have stood the test of time are pretty solid as a result. The process is much more complex than this simple description, of course; the logical models have to dynamically produce the artifacts of interest when we ‘turn the crank’, and the required supporting neural structures have to dynamically form when we turn the big crank of evolution.

And that, of course, is responding to forces that are influenced by what the logical structure does, and it’s all very complicated. So you can understand why chaos theory and statistical methods are attractive to some.

Our approach only allows us to look at a few relatively big effects, like the rise of language and why certain problems occur when we try to communicate with it. But these are necessarily intertwined with the way the whole organism functions, both internally and externally, in the social context in which language operates.

So our work touches a lot of different elements of the whole, including the stuff we present here about AD/HD. But it’s nowhere near to complete, and we’ll never do much more than scratch the surface ourselves.

It is something to do, though, in that Robert Burns sense: an activity that “stills time’s terrible rush”.

Thanks again for the stimulating discussion.

--Tom and Kay

Just as an FYI, Russ Barkley has said that he considers Jacob Brownski as his mentor and primary influence on becoming a scientist. while at UNC-Chapel Hill.

He is known for his PBS series on the origin of man. I believe he said that he was a biology majory, as to what specialty I don't know right now, as my notes are at the office.

I'll look into it when I get a chance.


Thanks again. :)

thanks, stabile. I live for your explanations.

I want to have your baby...crap gotta go to dinner. sorry cya.

the defination of treatment by Websters:
care by procedures or applications that are intended to relieve illness or injury...


Now taking medication that changes our neuro transmitters behavior (changed brain chemistry) we relieve the symptoms of ADD. Yes we still have ADD but the Temporary changes in our brain chemistry provide symptom relief temporarily....

Okay changing your enviroment also provides relief of ADD symptoms. Lets take my partner Gary for instance...he had difficulty with getting to work in time, he also liked doing things his own way,didn't like "having to conform" to some one elses expectations, he had a a lot of motivation and energy but little tolerance for social politics and BS.......

By working for him self Gary has eliminated these problem symptoms of his ADHD..no he still can't get to work at a certain time however there is no boss/time clocks to care there fore this is no longer a problem...he doesn't have to answer to a boss nor tolerate social politics...so easily furstrated with office politics and BS is no longer a problem. He does have customers and his products do have to serve thier prepoius but poor quality work was not amoung his problems only being told what to do and when to do it ......but by changing his working enviroment he has eliminated the problematic aspects off his ADD. Yes he still has ADD but it is no longer preventing him from functioning.....

..is that not the same reason we take medications.

Don't we take medications to increase our ability to function....changing his work enviroment allows him to increase his ability to function as well!!!!!! Thus it is treating his ADD just like my medications treat mine!!!!
Well said! I definately agree. Dr. Hallowell in his books uses "treat" in the same way you described here. Actually, given my druthers, I'd rather treat my ADD by changing my work environment than by using meds -- however at the moment, since my current job is being a mommy there is only some much of the job description I can change!:p
My clinical skills remain excellent. My ability to do my paperwork has suffered.I can definately relate, McTavish!;) Sounds like some pretty neat stuff is going on in your office. They're lucky to have you too, I think! :) Hope the new meds do the trick for you!

Scattered