What would you say is the "essense" of the difference between ADD and normals? Since there are so many different types of behaviors between them, I was curious if we could come up with some ideas that point towards some fundamental differences. What are normals really good at that we are not? What are we really good at that they are not? What are they really bad at? What are we really bad at? What is at the core of so many of these skills and deficiencies?

You mean...there is such thing as...normal people? :eek: :faint: :D

I don't think there is a way to categorise ADHDers' and NTers' best and worst skills as there is a lot of crossover-some ADHDers can do well in what is traditionally said to be a no go area for those with ADHD,and some NTs can have poor skills in areas they would be expected to thrive in.

What are normals? What are we? What are they? What are we? What is at the core?
If we can get a foothold, I think we evade local minima and spend our lives being driven into the creation of a logically consistent world view.
None of this is conscious; it just happens.
The differences in perspective of someone sitting in a local minima as compared to someone just so much lower, attempting to go even lower, is I think, a big part of divide.

SB.

I haven't a real answer, but I'll give you something.

NT - subconciously their attention is set to the obviously important matters at hand and they act upon that. (?)

ADD - subconsciously focus on everything that is doing something out of the ordinary, that may not be obviously, or at all, important or relavant as to what they were doing before their attention shifted. (?)

The difference? We don't fit in, and we don't get things done...and we love to be dramatic in our avoidance, blame...shout...dramatic...just in general. :D

The real (noticable) "differences" are in the pattern of impairments in major life activites.

It's also important to remember is that in making such comparison's, you need to use the "average person standard," and not intra-person comparison.

Some of the possible "invisible" differences could include smaller,less active,less devloped brain regions and suspected neurochemical deficiencies.

Ha! I guess having ADHD makes us 'Normal Challenged' then- Okay, I can buy that.

Differences *I* see about myself and the more linear thinkers around me-

They can generally stay on task, unless I hyperfocus, I cannot seem to.
Paperwork doesn't seem to bother them, it annoys the heck out of me.
They can do one thing at a time, me not so much.
Bills get paid on time, groceries get shopped for and rooms get cleaned. With just me, I'd be sitting at home in the dark wondering what to eat while looking for something relatively clean to wear in a scattered pile of clothes and newspapers.

Wow, without my wife I'd be a complete mess. My wife rocks.

On the plus side, I see things others don't as far as solutions. I can do almost anything if shown once or twice, and much of it well. I have a hundred inventions, but have yet to produce them. Nothing is impossible to me, it's just something that hasn't been figured out yet.

Craig

my life just got a whole lot easrier when i just excepted the fact that im NOT "normal". my whole life i been called the "special ed dude" or "the dude with the ADHD" and i always wanted to be "normal" and fit in with the other guys. i don't know what makes them normal, though. sometimes they seem just as messed up as us.

i'm glad i am who i am. my ADHD and learning disabilaties are part of what makes me Me and not some one else.

you all have a graet day!

is there such a thing as normal. I believe this is dangerous ground you are walking on. You can't compare your self to other. Because you are unique

well, yes you can...I don't think we need to be afraid to, as long as we aren't hurting anyone in the process. feel me?

Those with ADHD think differently and retrieve information differently. They are usually quick witted and can appear to find solutions without working through a problem. Some have said the brain of an ADHD person processes information in parallel, instead of serially.

Remember ADHD is not a disorder unless it negatively effects your quality of life.

A recent example of the difference in thinking between someone with ADHD and someone without.

My son, ADHD, had home work last week. In 2nd grade they are learning how to tell time. The worksheet had a traditional clock and they had to fill in 10 o'clock with the small and large hands. Then they had to fill in the time on a blank digital clock. The worksheets get graded in class and they have to correct their answers in class. I was reviewing my son's homework and noticed he missed the digital clock example. When I looked closer at what he had erased, he actually did it correctly. He just wrote the time exactly like a digital clock. His zeros were in block style, just like a digital clock. He even had the faint line in the middle of the zero that would be lit up if it was actually an eight.

I told my son I know exactly what he did and that it was OK. He did the problem correctly, but got it counted wrong. Subject someone to this through their entire life and they start to doubt themselves. Their self-esteem can be extremely low.

This is where all of the co-morbids come into play. OCD (constantly checking to make sure things are done correctly), anxiety (always nervous and on the defensive), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (anger toward figures of authority) and depression (low self-esteem because your led to believe answers are incorrect).

This opinion is from MY observances.I have noticed a big diffrence in general kindness among ADDers.A little more compassion.Sensitivity and understanding.Ive seen alot of free spirits here,including myself.Generally a sence of cooperation together in matters of the heart.We may not do well in structured,cold environments,but we pull together in matters of emotion and humanity.

I live with a Non-Adder and what I've seen for differences is this:
Me: Bold, Impulsive, hyperfocus, Outwardly personality, energy, very creative
He: Neat, Organized, Business minded, can plan his time well, can break from one activity and go quickly to another (I wish I could), Introverted, Alittle shy.

Its hard to say what is normal and what isn't for my boyfriend thinks that how I am different and well... its more like

She: interrupts, brave, social, great problem solver, talks faster, more energy, more emotional, interesting
me: Stable, money wize, shy, boring, able to retain facts better, clear sense of direction, can pay attention while on the phone

Hope that helps

Those with ADHD think differently ...

I could have quoted the whole sentence and more.
I agree with this view whole-heartedly.

I've been in a place called 'science and consciousness review' recently on the net.
Seems quite credible with articles from Crick and co-workers.

Much talk of attention -- but not with any reference to ADD.

Here - attention is considered more as an uber-function of the brain ..... intertwined with other uber-functions.

TimH mentions we think differently. I agree -- I think that the core *difference* (whatever that might be) spawns the series of characteristics that we associate with ADD -- subsuming the big obvious end-effects that we all agree on -- including the apparence of problems with attention.

Surely cognitive processes, thought intertwine with consciousness, conscious awareness to focus the spotlight of attention. And what if conscious control over attention were an illusion? An illusion that becomes more illusory in ADD.

SB.

I told my son I know exactly what he did and that it was OK. He did the problem correctly, but got it counted wrong. Subject someone to this through their entire life and they start to doubt themselves. Their self-esteem can be extremely low.

This is where all of the co-morbids come into play. OCD (constantly checking to make sure things are done correctly), anxiety (always nervous and on the defensive), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (anger toward figures of authority) and depression (low self-esteem because your led to believe answers are incorrect).
My daughter is also in second grade and she did awesome in school last year. For some reason this year is a lot harder, it almost seems to me like she missed a year or something. Her teacher corrects things on too high of a standard I feel. Like you Tim, I keep encouraging my child because I don't want her to begin letting those above co-morbids creep in. For me, somewhere, they all crept in and I fight it every damn day. My parents never helped me much with school though which I think was a huge mistake. When my dad did help, he did just that, made me always second guess myself. He said it was making sure that I KNEW the answer, but I think it just caused me to doubt everything I do. So I do what I can now for my kids. Although, I do think half of it for me is just chemical imbalance.

On another note, I think it's hard to say ADD / ADHD people are really all that alike. I say that because you have the hyper active ones, that usually seem to be more driven and get more done, but usually can be a little obnoxious. The you have the Inatentive type (like myself) and I usually don't have much drive or motivation. Ya know one thing I think I've noticed about almost all AD/ADHD people are that they are drawn to and do well with computers. I think it's having that ONE thing in front of you to concentrate and focus on. I'ts often my escape, the only way to my next breath of air! lol.

Mary

Ya know one thing I think I've noticed about almost all AD/ADHD people are that they are drawn to and do well with computers.
Mary
:-) I totally agree ......


Why are so many ADDers computer programmers? if we have unstructured minds.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=189621&postcount=13

SB.

Okay here’s mine....(Warning: negative post alert)

What would you say is the "essense" of the difference between ADD and normals?
They grew up.

What are normals really good at that we are not?
Abstract thinking; Finding their way--getting society to enable them to find a path.

What are we really good at that they are not?
Occaisionally surprising people, that have written us off as useless, with our sparks of brilliance (First they're shocked, then they accuse us of cheating, then comes that quiet unexplained anger...)

What are they really bad at?
Trying to get us "all figured out".

What are we really bad at?
Every necessary lifeskill that they take for granted.
We too much need to be taught things that there are no books for, teachers for, classes for or operations for. (or things that "We have to figure out on our own." or some similar BS brush-off....)

What is at the core of so many of these skills and deficiencies?
They didn't catch the real problem early enough and they weren't prepared for it anyway.


The real (noticable) "differences" are in the pattern of impairments in major life activites.

If I knew how to be concise I would have just said that. Now, how come we STILL never win an EEOC case???

I think normals are too obsessed with the rules of fitting in. Their lives revolve around being normal, which in this country means following what TV and the media tell them is acceptable behavoir. Normals don't invent anything, they don't make new discoveries, or work towards any kind of change. They pretty much don't contribute anything to society, they are simply along for the ride, they're breeders.

The only reason they seem to fit in is because there are more of them. Whoever controls the majority dictates what is normal. Someone said they are better at finding their way or adapting to life but I don't agree. In reality there is nothing for them to find or adapt to. If you are normal you don't have to adjust anything to survive the system because the system is made so you don't have to think at all just go with the flow.

I know everyone doesn't feel this way but I would be very insulted if someone suggested I was normal. To me normal means you have average to low intelligence and the inability to lead others or control your own life. Pretty much normal = sheep. I'd much rather be a wolf or a shepard then one of the sheep.

If I knew how to be concise I would have just said that. Now, how come we STILL never win an EEOC case???
Because people see the accomodations needed to make an ADDer successful as unreasonable.

In many cases (but certainly not all) I'd agree.

MY OPINION:

This is just "us" and "them" thinking again.

There might be an "us", but there is no "them". The population of normal, not at all impaired, is not "entire population minus ADDers". It's actually a minority. Those with no ADD are broken down into those with no disorder and those with a myriad of other disorders. ADD isn't even the most common of those, Major Depressive Disorder is.

The one thing that sets ADDers apart from everyone else: a diagnosis.

A lot like concepts of ethnicity, the differences among ADDers are far greater than the differences between ADDers and everyone else.

Oh I forgot to mention for my definition of normal I meant no other disorders diagnosed or undiagnosed. You can't really seperate just ADDers since most ADDers have comorbids. Even if the person doesn't have ADD any disorder they have will still fall into the not normal category.

No two people are alike let alone an entire group so obviously any attempt at classifying people will be based on generalizations. Also any generalizations will be based on the experiences of the person making them.

>What are normals really good at that we are not?

Coping with other Normals.

>What are we really good at that they are not?

Thinking for ourselves.

>What are they really bad at?

Thinking for themselves.

>What are we really bad at?

Coping with Normals.

>What is at the core of so many of these skills and deficiencies?

Not entirely sure, and as I never met another ADDer I've only myself to go on. But it has something to do with a complete lack of assumption on our part, about anything - except so far as we try to 'fit in' - boy do I make some mistakes when I try fitting in. Normals warm to me though, perhaps because of rather than despite this - and the fact I like to make myself useful by solving their 'impossible' problems. ADD is to me the Art of the Possible.

I used to figure everyone else was from another planet, till I spotted one or two logical flaws with that hypothesis..

One thing I noticed. People mistake me for 'intelligent' when actually I'm quite slow. I know some really smart people with a capacity for fast abstract thought, and I'm not one of them. However with a brain constantly hungry, I know a lot, and normals mistake this for the kind of intelligence intelligent people have. Well how would they know the difference? So then I'm not quite brilliant and not quite normal. Both sets of people cope with me with a kind of amused tolerance and my life is always as the permanent outsider.

Maybe the alien thing wasn't so daft after all, only its me not them. I'm the Woman Who Fell To Earth, and it was a bumpy landing.

Is our defining characteristic an experience of aloneness and alienation? Mine sure has been, and I'm suprised to find here people with spouses and families. I eventually figured 'solitary' was what I was supposed to be, and thats not neccessarily a bad thing. Now I know I have ADD I'm delighted to discover there might be others like me.

So, what I think is the core of our difference is 'independence' or perhaps 'undependence'. If someone tries to crowd me I will politely disengage. If they want to know why I won't go along with some retarded plan, I'll tell them. This upsets most people and amazes the rest - the 'rest' I'm speaking of are my friends.

:)

>Oh I forgot to mention for my definition of normal I meant no other disorders diagnosed or undiagnosed.

Oh come on! In that case there aren't any normals! Everyone I know has their own page in the diagnostic criteria manual - heheh. And the ones who think they are most normal are the biggest loonies of the lot. A Normal is just a loony who hasn't been diagnosed yet.

Hm, actually I do know just one person I couldn't pin a disorder on, and he is so saintly he is by definition extraordinary - certainly not 'normal'.

The "essence" are the developmental delays caused by the impairments.

A non-ADHD person will not experience Impairments (problems) from the symptoms, where as an ADHD person will.

That's how you gauge the difference(s).

It's true to some extent., thats why so so many people look to be unique.

No one wants to be called "common". It's saying... there's not a lot of worth in you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going with the flow if that's the way you are and you don't see a need to be different for the sake of being different. If people are 'normal'.. so what... not everyone can be a leader. It's the workers, the people in between that get the job done. Everyone has something unique to contribute, and creating a label for the normals to make non NTs feel more unique doesnt cut it. I don't think most normals are mindless yes-men-- they just happen to fit in and why would they go out of their way to not fit in, and why should we privately think less of them for what they are?


If you are, well, not your average Joe as ADDers probably aren't, that's good cos thats what you are. But to say that someone is.... less special, of avergae intelligence at best just because they are mainstream... It's kind of iffy to me, I'm sorry.

The vast majority of people will be in between, average. But that doesnt devalue them.


I think normals are too obsessed with the rules of fitting in. Their lives revolve around being normal, which in this country means following what TV and the media tell them is acceptable behavoir. Normals don't invent anything, they don't make new discoveries, or work towards any kind of change. They pretty much don't contribute anything to society, they are simply along for the ride, they're breeders.

The only reason they seem to fit in is because there are more of them. Whoever controls the majority dictates what is normal. Someone said they are better at finding their way or adapting to life but I don't agree. In reality there is nothing for them to find or adapt to. If you are normal you don't have to adjust anything to survive the system because the system is made so you don't have to think at all just go with the flow.

I know everyone doesn't feel this way but I would be very insulted if someone suggested I was normal. To me normal means you have average to low intelligence and the inability to lead others or control your own life. Pretty much normal = sheep. I'd much rather be a wolf or a shepard then one of the sheep.

The vast majority of people will be in between, average. But that doesnt devalue them.
Here's a funny little tidbit from the psychology literature:

The vast majority of people rate themselves "above average" on almost any task or trait (like intelligence).

Of course, by the definition of average, nearly half of those people will be wrong! (It's called "overconfidence bias" or "self-serving bias" depending on the context).

Friendly reminder from staff:

Feel free to disagree but please continue to do so politely. Flaming gets threads closed. Strong debates have threads sent to debates, which only makes sense

Will now return all to the regularly scheduled thread

I think some of you are confusing ADD with creativity...

I think some of you are confusing ADD with creativity...

And I think some of you are assuming a LOT about LOTS! I can tell you that I have a diagnosis of ADHD, and I ALSO worry A LOT about rules and fitting in. I prefer to fit in. Again, I "prefer" to fit in, but I won't go against what my gut tells me - just to fit in.

I don't think many people know me. Whatever the reason (my ADHD, my recurrent depression and chronic dysthymia, my struggles with addiction, being a single mom . . . not currently subscribing to a particular religion and in the searching mode, none of the previously mentioned) I am pretty isolated right now, and the people I have spent a lot of time with before (like co-workers) all seem to have these absolute opinions of me. For example, many think I am BRAVE, strong, tough, outspoken. Others see me as gentle, quiet, sweet and docile. None of the people that viewed me as strong, outspoken, with a lot of self-esteem and self-confidence refused to believe that I had a severe problem (almost impairment) with shyness as a young child. I found interacting with other people to be EXTREMELY difficult and painful and nearly impossible up until about 8th grade. I must have looked severly autistic when people would keep talking to me and not leave and I would maintain NON-EYE CONTACT and try to move myself elsewhere the more they persisted. It was weird.

What am I rambling about now . . . I guess maybe it's the combination and severity of the typical ADHD traits that make us different. The "essence" - now that is way too abstract for this mind to find words for, but I'd love to hear some easy-to-understand answer. I have to say, I have yet to be convinced about this whole ADHD unique diagnosis and all the generalizations I hear about people with ADHD. If someone knows the TRUTH, if there even is such a thing as the TRUTH about ADHD - I sure haven't heard it in a way that I can both understand and find convincing. For now, I am happy that I can talk about my "difficulties" and actually get a bit of "sympathy" instead of just "tough love" and "punishment" and "harsh reprimanding" and "shame." If all my difficulty with motivation, difficulty starting and finishing tasks - especially the mundane, being disorganized, etc. can be viewed as part of a disorder - instead of being viewed as I'm just a loser, hedonist, bum, lazy, spoiled, immature - well, of course I'm gonna pursuit educating myself about ADHD. Even the specialist who diagnosed me didn't convince me. ???

Sorry for the ramble,
Sue

I see ADHD as what it truly is; a chronic and disabling medical condition/disorder that occurs across the lifespan.

I see the "uniqueness" as the way(s) in which each of us battles it everyday and in the various accomplishments, however small, we've made.:)

McTavis23,

Well said.

It's true to some extent., thats why so so many people look to be unique.

No one wants to be called "common". It's saying... there's not a lot of worth in you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going with the flow if that's the way you are and you don't see a need to be different for the sake of being different. If people are 'normal'.. so what... not everyone can be a leader. It's the workers, the people in between that get the job done. Everyone has something unique to contribute, and creating a label for the normals to make non NTs feel more unique doesnt cut it. I don't think most normals are mindless yes-men-- they just happen to fit in and why would they go out of their way to not fit in, and why should we privately think less of them for what they are?


If you are, well, not your average Joe as ADDers probably aren't, that's good cos thats what you are. But to say that someone is.... less special, of avergae intelligence at best just because they are mainstream... It's kind of iffy to me, I'm sorry.

The vast majority of people will be in between, average. But that doesnt devalue them.
I agree 100%. Not every brilliant mind, inventor, or leader in history had ADHD - I'm guessing most didn't because they obviously had their act together or they wouldn't have achieved anything. The ones that maybe DID have ADHD probably had "normal" partners or advisors that helped them get their act together.

I think whether someone is creative, intellegent, generous, abstract thinker, organized, linear, etc, has to do with temperment and personality, NOT ADHD. I know many great artists and leaders that are also highly organized, planned, and linear thinkers. That's how they came to be successful. And as far as leadership qualities go, most ADHD people I know should NOT lead ANYONE. My extreme ADD brother can't even "lead" himself to find a job or take a shower let alone become a leader of many.

I am ADHD, but I do not possess the "positive" traits of ADHD that most of you here boast about. Let's see, I am not "creative" - I am interested in business and logic. Also I am not a messy person, I dress nice, and am rather reserved. I was never compassionate nor sensitive to others - but I am starting to be because I want to improve my self. And yes I DO want to fit in. When someone first meets me, they are surprised that I have ADHD.

The reason I am ADHD is because I've lost jobs, friends, and relationships because I'm too scatterbrained to remember important dates and obligations. I have a short attention span. My finances are a huge mess because I forgot due dates. I lose track of time and forget where I'm going or what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't look people in the eye for very long when they are talking to me. I lose interest in any subject, even if it interests me, and without meds, I have almost no energy, even though I'm a motivated and driven person. I need to drink large amounts of caffeine.

So IMO whether a person thinks "out-of-the-box", questions life, creates things, invents things, a great leader, etc, has to do with the person's character - not if they have ADD or not.

And whoever said that no one's "normal", I agree 100%. If they're too happy and enthusiastic, people will say they're ADHD because they're too hyperactive. If they're too sad, they've got depression. If they're moody, they're bipolar. If they're too quiet, they have social anxiety disorder. If they're too neat, they have OCD. If they worry, they have general anxiety disorder, etc.. I'm not trivializing these disorders, but just proving a point that their is no "normal".

I really like being told that I have good "common sense," as that has been the single most important determinant in coping with adversity throughout my life.

The vast majority of people rate themselves "above average" on almost any task or trait (like intelligence)…
We never saw any numbers on that, although this idea or something like it has been passed around from time to time.

Intelligence is probably the wrong thing to cite for stuff like this, because of the funny way that the metric is established. It’s hard to find a group willing to think about and estimate their rank (and comment on it if asked) that isn’t on average above the 100 mark on standardized IQ tests.

It’s likely such a group would consider 100 to be average, not too far from what we’re usually told. It might be more accurate to say that what people do in the case of IQ is fail to estimate an appropriate relative average for the relevant group.

There are lots of common counterexamples to the principle, too. Studies have shown that almost everybody underestimates their height in comparison to others of a similar height, a case of mistakenly rating one’s self below a relative standard of average.

It’s been suggested that the effect is linked to the role of perceived height as an indicator of status. Why would perceived status cause a persistent negative bias in perception of comparative height? Because virtually everybody underestimates their status by a little bit, a well known effect that mystified sociologists for quite a few years.

It turns out that status is the primary determinant of choice in the modern mating strategy, long-term pair bonding. The goal is to choose a potential mate that is both desirable (status higher than yours…) and winnable (…but not too much higher).

The most successful long-term pairs (longevity and stability) are formed when each mate feels that s/he has gotten away with getting a little better than s/he deserves. Consistently underestimating one’s own status within the social group by a little bit plays directly to successful relationships.

(Status plays a role in choices associated with the primitive strategy, but the goal is simply to maximize it. The status of the person making the choice doesn’t enter in to it.)

--T&K

The most major differences I find between me and the Non-ADDers in my life are:
-- I am much more disorganized than they are.
-- Time is a much more difficult and flexible concept to me-- I have a more difficult time understanding how much time has passed or how much time it will take me to do something.
-- While they can not concentrate on just one of the ordinary things that need to be done at a time, they frequently have that ability. For example, I can play video games or surf the web during class (and frequently do) yet be on target and able to discuss things with them and be on topic-- in fact some of the times when I am most participatory are when I am also playing.
-- They can do their work in little pieces over time. I tend to be able to put it all together under pressure.
-- I think differently from them-- I see the problem differently and thus tend to solve it differently, or I see patterns or connections that they do not see-- it is sometimes as if I see a completely different forest than they do.
-- I need more affirmation and encouragement-- I need to know that I am doing a good job. The approval of those in supervisory positions is much more necessary for me than it seems to be for them.
-- My moods tend to be more mercurial than theirs-- Like a young child it does not take much to make me happy or to make me fall apart (medication controls this one for the most part).
-- I have a much harder time with dealing with some of the details of my job (for example, journalling, keeping track of my hours and receipts, and writing letters).
-- Talking on the telephone is much more difficult for me than for them (because of problems with my TMJ, I am unable to hold the phone on my shoulder and thus can not do much with my hands during this time-- I have to use one of my hands to hold the phone).

The vast majority of people rate themselves "above average" on almost any task or trait (like intelligence)…

A majority across the "general population" who ever they may be. Would there perhaps be some numbers representing the ADD population??? I do not believe this holds true.....should my long term memory be correct one of the major things ADDers face is low self esteem!!!!!!

http://www.help4adhd.org/en/treatment/dsm/adultdiagnosis
List of reasons adults seek help....
•Inconsistent performance in jobs or careers; losing or quitting jobs frequently
•A history of academic and/or career underachievement
•Poor ability to manage day-to-day responsibilities (e.g. completing household chores or maintenance tasks, paying bills, organizing things)
•Relationship problems due to not completing tasks, forgetting important things, or getting upset easily over minor things
•Chronic stress and worry due to failure to accomplish goals and meet responsibilities
•Chronic and intense feelings of frustration, guilt, or blame

Bold mine....I think many adults with ADD have spent a life time feeling different out of place, stupid, scattered, lazy, ect.......I also think some of these self misconceptions were assisted along by frustrated folks who really believed these things.


This is one reason I believe many come to discuss the positives that ADD traits have brought into their lives.....negatives are often noticeable to self or mentioned by others; therefore, too easily seen.

Many among our population have spent a life time being told about their negative traits, poor time management, disorganization, under achievement, fill in the blank.

The desire to share positive side of ADD traits is allowing many to balance out the bad with good....reach a state of homeostasis so to speak...because there are always those who feel the uncontrollable urge to come and remind all of the negatives which is yet another attempt to reach some sort of social balance.

Impulsive behavior can be good or bad depending on the situation.

Day dreaming can be detrimental in class but handy in a waiting room.

Artistic abilities can range from musical talent, to problems solving and even ability to dress well!!!!!

I have seen more example of types of organization than flat out disorganization....seeing patterns from seemingly chaos is one of my ADD traits

One man who appeared to be scattered actually organized according to shape..which meant his pencil, paint brush, and tooth brush may indeed be found in the same container. Once I was able to see how he arranged things I could figure out pretty much where he put any thing. Current partner does a chronological order thing from top to bottom but it reverses when to comes to front of room/back of room.

The most major differences I find between me and the Non-ADDers in my life are

let me try this..

I am prone to saying what is on my mind......I tend to blurt things out in a direct manner!

The flip side

I rarely get caught up in "head games"...honest almost to a fault...when it comes to my feeling or opinion I never leave people guessing

I am a procrastinator.....I rarely break things into small pieces because my brain sees this is added work.

The flip side....

I often cut to the chase eliminating unnecessary steps....looking for efficient ways of doing things.

Frankly conversing in various discussion here has allowed me to see the differences not only in "NT's" and my self but I have found there is a difference between myself and other ADDers..

Many lack motivation normally not my problem okay I lack direction

Many other ADDers complain of feeling shy..I am the opposite of shy

Some have trouble with memory I have an excellent memory especially when I try to forget!!!!!!


I agree 100%. Not every brilliant mind, inventor, or leader in history had ADHD

Neither does every criminal in prison, cheating spouse, tardy dinner date, but boy can those numbers be pulled up faster than I can type this sentence! ADD is a part of my personality, it has been with me as long as I have been!!!
This is some thing I can not change but how I perceive my ADD is entirely up to me!!!!


And as far as leadership qualities go, most ADHD people I know should NOT lead ANYONE. My extreme ADD brother can't even "lead" himself to find a job or take a shower let alone become a leader of many.


Gee all ADDers aren't like the above mentioned brother either...

I have an ADD brother myself He can't seem to get out of the shower!!! I have shut down the hot water to assist him expediting the bodily cleansing process....although he is struggling to find his place in this life he is young. It doesn't matter if he is headed into trouble or in academic studies he is a leader pure and simple!!!!!

I have twins both have ADD one never wanted to bathe the other never wanted to end the bathing!!!! People are different ADD or not ADD...NTers are different from each other just as we who have ADD are different...what is wrong with different...why does "not like everyone else" have to be such a bad thing especially after jr. high school????


I gravitate toward the positive out looks because….

Attitude is more contagious than the common cold.

My personal belief of what determines ADD success is written in my signature at present!!!! I got tried of typing it over and over and over!!!!

Impulsive behavior can be good or bad depending on the situation. I am very impulsive. I bought my house on the day I saw it, and closed before ever seeing the inside. I have made most of my major life decisions in the span of about 5 minutes.

But of all my ADHD traits, I consider this one a positive. I think of the ability to take the leap as a gift, and hesitation or the inability to act as a true impairment.

Or to put it another way, I think people regret the things they didn't do more than the things they did.

In military leadership training, they told us that when a decision has to be made, it's better to make a wrong decision than no decision at all. So ADHDers should make good leaders, as long as they have good assistants to take care of the admin parts of it.

A lot like concepts of ethnicity, the differences among ADDers are far greater than the differences between ADDers and everyone else.Exactly, Barb! Thank you for pointing it out so succinctly.

While there are clearly subsets and clusters of folks with broad similarities (lateral thinking, or high creativity, or impulsivity) none of those subsets describes the whole population in one stroke. In fact, many subsets are polar opposites (e.g. you see diagnoses among both those who are highly abstract and those who are highly concrete, as each extreme has its focusing issues).

It only takes a day or two of surfing this forum to see it underlined in bold: there are a multitude of paths to an erratic attention span and a multitude of overlaps and echos with other conditions, from Asperger's, ASD and OCD to dyslexia, depression and bipolar.

Forgive me for repeating if I am, but I am reminded of something Ned Hallowell once said, that "ADD" as a diagnosis is no more specific than "fever." It describes the effect, not the cause.

That said, there are similar things that are done to treat a fever, just as there are similar things done to treat ADD, regardless of cause or etiology. And there are many meaningful reasons for everyone in a group such as this to feel bonded by dealing with the struggles that flow from living with these issues, even when our causes and consequences differ a bit.

Just my two cents :)

A majority across the "general population" who ever they may be. Would there perhaps be some numbers representing the ADD population??? I do not believe this holds true.....should my long term memory be correct one of the major things ADDers face is low self esteem!!!!!!
Believe it or not, even people with low self esteem rate themselves as above average on the vast majority of traits. It's what happens when you ask them to describe themselves that you see the decrease in esteem. Track records don't actually have all that much influence on our self-concepts.

Also, while there may be a lower "average" self-esteem among ADDers, it's certainly not a given.

Or to put it another way, I think people regret the things they didn't do more than the things they did.


Research supports this opinion. We call it "counterfactual thinking". When a mistake is fresh, the things we do we regret more. But, over time, those things are forgotten and the missed opportunities become more regretted. We can never know what would have been if we'd made another choice.

As far as impulsivity's shiny side -- I agree! If you never take risks, you never get anywhere.

I agree 100%. Not every brilliant mind, inventor, or leader in history had ADHD - I'm guessing most didn't because they obviously had their act together or they wouldn't have achieved anything. The ones that maybe DID have ADHD probably had "normal" partners or advisors that helped them get their act together.

I think whether someone is creative, intellegent, generous, abstract thinker, organized, linear, etc, has to do with temperment and personality, NOT ADHD. I know many great artists and leaders that are also highly organized, planned, and linear thinkers. That's how they came to be successful.
So you are saying people with ADHD can't be organized or successful. Or if they are successful it's only because they had someone holding their hand helping them along. LOL that's kind of sad if you actually believe that. Especially since being unorganized is just one possible symptom of ADD. Possible meaning not all ADHDers are unorganized, just like not all ADDers are hyperactive, impulsive, have low self-esteem, etc.

Originally Posted by Hopeless
I agree 100%. Not every brilliant mind, inventor, or leader in history had ADHD - I'm guessing most didn't because they obviously had their act together or they wouldn't have achieved anything. The ones that maybe DID have ADHD probably had "normal" partners or advisors that helped them get their act together.

I think whether someone is creative, intellegent, generous, abstract thinker, organized, linear, etc, has to do with temperment and personality, NOT ADHD. I know many great artists and leaders that are also highly organized, planned, and linear thinkers. That's how they came to be successful.


So you are saying people with ADHD can't be organized or successful. Or if they are successful it's only because they had someone holding their hand helping them along.
I don't think that's what hopeless was saying AT ALL, despite the comment about needing someone to help to be a leader (which I also think is ridiculous).

I think she was trying to say that success doesn't come from ADHD. She said, "So IMO whether a person thinks "out-of-the-box", questions life, creates things, invents things, a great leader, etc, has to do with the person's character - not if they have ADD or not."

I happen to agree.

Depending on the person, ADHD is always an impediment and sometimes a benefit, but NEVER entirely responsible for life outcomes.

Oh ok (missing the point is definately one of my ADHD traits lol) Then I agree with her.

I remember talking about this in another thread. Of course for the life of me I won't remember which one. I think it had to do with the positive traits of ADHD. I remember thinking way to many people credit ADHD with giving them their good qualities. As if they wouldn't be intelligent or creative or whatever their particualr positive trait was if they were suddenly cured of ADHD. Maybe thats why so many people have poor self-esteem they don't actually attribute the good qualities to themselves they attribute them to the disorder.

It might have been in a thread about personality types. Not even sure if it was on these boards but I think it was for some reason. Oh well that doesn't matter anyway it's all based on opinion and opinions can't be right or wrong.

You mean, I'm NOT normal?

sheesh....

;)

Oh ok (missing the point is definately one of my ADHD traits lol) Then I agree with her.
I thought so! :D


... As if they wouldn't be intelligent or creative or whatever their particualr positive trait was if they were suddenly cured of ADHD. Maybe thats why so many people have poor self-esteem they don't actually attribute the good qualities to themselves they attribute them to the disorder....
I think it's probably mostly a way to deal with the "label". Nobody wants to think they're defective. Instead, if you can't deny the "difference", make it into something positive.

I think it's probably mostly a way to deal with the "label". Nobody wants to think they're defective. Instead, if you can't deny the "difference", make it into something positive.I think it boils down to valuing yourself as a human being, regardless of your strengths and weaknesses. As a consequence, you are able to view both as simple facts, not having a stake in either.

While even a defect can be a boon -- Lao Tsu wrote that the knarled tree is not chopped for firewood and the crippled peasant is not drafted to war -- I for one am not in denial about my defects, which are many. On the other hand, I don't have false modesty about my gifts. I know what they are, yet my pride in them is tempered by the fact that none of them is all that significant; each is bettered by someone, somewhere, and even if it were the greatest among mankind, what is a human's speed next to a cheetah's? A human's strength next to a bear? A human's intellect in the face of infinity?

I can only conclude that I am alive, I love and am loved, and that makes my existence worthy.

On the other hand, it's an interesting, if not very practical, exercise to conjecture whether some of my gifts may have been due to or enhanced by my ADHD. I have already written that I think my impulsiveness is a gift overall; then there is my ability to keep my head in a crisis, think outside the box, not follow the herd, and hyperfocus. I conclude that while ADHD may have given me certain gifts, they don't necessarily need to balance against the deficits that it has given me.

Barbyma, (or anyone else who would like to answer)

You seem to know a lot about low self esteem so I'm hoping you can share your thoughts and opinions on a few questions about it. Do you think one can ever really recover from a low self esteem? What is the main difference in having a low sense of self worth and a low self esteem? Thanks!

Barbyma, (or anyone else who would like to answer)

You seem to know a lot about low self esteem so I'm hoping you can share your thoughts and opinions on a few questions about it. Do you think one can ever really recover from a low self esteem? What is the main difference in having a low sense of self worth and a low self esteem? Thanks!
Yes I do.

In Psychological terms, there is a difference between "self efficacy" and "self esteem". My personal experience, until my mid-late 20's was one of very low self esteem, but pretty high self efficacy. Self worth isn't really used much in psychology, but I'd probably define it as some combination of these.

Self efficacy is a measure of how "effective" the subject feels in the sense that one has control over outcomes. Self esteem, a measure of how valuable one is (mostly to others), doesn't have to be correlated.

Being bipolar, and mostly depressed, I always assumed that people didn't like me, that I wasn't attractive, that I was weird, etc. But, I always felt I could "show them" if I was only given the opportunity. Until well into adulthood, I continually felt "gypped" out of opportunities to "prove myself". At the same time, I thought I was worthless.

Once I hit 25 or 26 I began to realize a few things:

1) My perceptions were very off. I had a warped sense of reality when it came to how others viewed me. This is a symptom of nearly ever brain-based disorder.

2) My "lack of opportunity" didn't exist. I needed to make my own opportunities and, in fact, I'd done quite well for myself, so I must have demonstrated some recognizable abilities.

3) The things I thought were "missing" in my life (mostly a spouse & children at the time) were certainly things that I wanted, but not having them didn't make me less valuable. I needed to be okay with who I was.

4) I didn't need to be a super-being to be valuable.

So, I continued to look for the right medication (I was misdiagnosed w/depression for nearly 5 years before I found success in treatment). I reminded myself that my insecurities were mostly the product of a defective brain. I forced myself to "listen." And, I let myself off the hook as much as I could. Eventually, I actually started to believe it.

I DO think you can change your self-esteem. Even after decades of self-loathing, I managed to find peace and it's lasted nearly 15 years so far.

I can only conclude that I am alive, I love and am loved, and that makes my existence worthy.

I like this well said.

Do you think one can ever really recover from a low self esteem? What is the main difference in having a low sense of self worth and a low self esteem?

Dictionary meanings because I wasn't sure myself if there was a difference. :o

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/self%2520esteem.html

self-esteem
self-respect: confidence in your own merit as an individual person

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/self%2520worth.html
self-worth
belief in self: confidence in personal value and worth as an individual person


I am sure there are those who can give a better psychological break down.


Do you think one can ever really recover from a low self esteem?

Recover from this being a constant way of life I believe the answers is yes,,,,ever recover from moments of self doubt I sure hope not!!!!

Some times low self esteem can be from experiences in life other times like my own it is accidentally subconsciously taught by a parent.

My mother had certain issues of low self esteem unbeknownst to me until recently as she often appeared the opposite. On a recent trip where her and I traveled to Ohio I discovered she had always felt less than due to an occurrences in her own life....this was unintentionally passed down to me.

I was recalling a discussion I had with my ADD doctor some months before about insight being learned from my mom. My doctors point that although this can be learned one must posses the ability to grasp the concept or the teaching does not take.

I attributed many of my successes to medications, upbringing, and luck but rarely to my own abilities. My mom pointed out that when she did well on a test she always attributed her success to the test being easy or some thing she was taught by her Dad, never to own her abilities. In this conversation we discovered an attitude she had and done all in her power to hide was subconsciously taught to me...I have a tendency to miss the obvious while being blown over by the sublime!!!!

Although I still struggle with self perception discovering this feel of being less than was some thing I accidentally picked up on helped tremendously. I do not feel inferior because I am; I feel that way some times because I observed this as being expected even through it was the last thing my mother wanted to teach me...

I have periods of self doubt which I believe is normal and even healthy in moderation. I see nothing wrong with checking ones own intentions from time to time. When accused of slacking off I see no problem in stopping to ask why this is perceived and listening to the response and taking it as information.

Never questioning my behavior I believe would decrease my insight and never listening because I assume I am always right or mine is the only important opinion would decrease my sensitivity to other people's needs.


Balanced approached can be hard for those of us who have ADD and some times a swing between the two are the closest thing some of us can come. and if low self esteem images are crippling or are accompanied by depression then professional help may be the best option.

Self acceptance.....do you like who you are over all? Are you able to see both strengths and weaknesses in your self?

Are you able to accept other people as who they are...this doesn't mean agree with them or even like them but accept them.

I understand Gary is in no way inferior I feel and he has a unique perspective of his own....he feels I over analyze ( I do analyze a lot) he feels no need to waste energy in reflections and analysis it doesn't earn money, it doesn't put food on the table and it chops no wood. He is again correct I make no money and my analysis can be the focus instead of the wood chopping (or dish doing). I can accept this as his perspective but feel no need to change mental probing into the human psyche.

I have learned from this experience (living with Gary) that I desire to spend time pursuing spiritual and intellectual growth. I have lived long enough to rear my children who now have children, I feel at my age time to maintain the physical existence (working enough to pay bills) while pursuing the beyond...Gary and I have different goals in life no more and no less. My analysis brings me to the conclusion that this difference will eventually force us to take separate paths.

In this conflict I do not see him as the bad guy simply not the right guy to spend the rest of my life with. He cares this I understand I care also but I do not wish to change my direction and neither does he...does this make any scenes in the self esteem department? better said maybe was:

I think it boils down to valuing yourself as a human being, regardless of your strengths and weaknesses. As a consequence, you are able to view both as simple facts, not having a stake in either.

In other words I can accept differences in my self and others and feel no need to change myself just because I am different than them. If another persons beliefs or behavior is different than mine I feel no need to change them either. If I find thier behavior violates my personal boundaries I have no problem protecting my self but expect the world to think like me..boring!!!!!!

In this conflict I do not see him as the bad guy simply not the right guy to spend the rest of my life with. He cares this I understand I care also but I do not wish to change my direction and neither does he...does this make any scenes in the self esteem department?It makes sense, but it's sad. You know, my wife and I are very, very different. She's Japanese and I'm American, our ages are 15 years apart, we have few interests in common, I'm an ADHD freakazoid while she's Ms. homemaker. But we are compatible, which is what I think is the most important, perhaps the only important thing.

The big mistake people make when hiring is hiring people like them, rather than people who will complement them. Picking a spouse is kind of like hiring someone...

Self efficacy is a measure of how "effective" the subject feels in the sense that one has control over outcomes. Self esteem, a measure of how valuable one is (mostly to others), doesn't have to be correlated.I think this is a problem for me. I am confident in my strengths, and satisfied with my abilities, but I am not satisfied with my performance. Like knowing however well you do, there is always more inside you that you can't get out. Since these are family-friendly forums, I'll refrain from scatalogical references. ;)

One definition of fulfillment is putting the whole of your talents into your passions. So doing things I really enjoy, but feeling unable to put my full capabilities into them, is very frustrating.

The big mistake people make when hiring is hiring people like them, rather than people who will complement them. Picking a spouse is kind of like hiring someone...


Although this makes sense it isn't the case with me....see I had the same feeling of discohesion with my second husband as well and he and I were vastly different. In the outer world we complimented each other very well which is why I tried to the point of insanity to stick it out. He and Gary are almost exact opposites in personality.

Gary and I have more in common in basic personailty..he lacks the desire or ability to "psychologically connect"...I just have to have an internal "connection" that is hard to describe. It is between emotional and spiritual, almost an empathy (Gary can read moods but not connect) but not quite....deeper and growing!!!

I don't know guess their isn't any words that describe what I mean. I do know it is a capability because I have met others who have “it”. This ability isn't exactly a coupling concept either because I have shared it with others whom I have no romantic feelings. I have come to realize that if I am to dedicate my life to some one then we must be able to share this internal connectiveness/cohesion.


Gee does any one remember the topic???

Okay "norms" would know me the ADDer had to look up at the top...couldn't be the 50 threads I have read must be the ADD!!!

Gee does any one remember the topic???Oh yeah... :D

So my psych says that there are some fundamental ways in which the thought patterns of ADDers and non-ADDers differ. For example, I used to say things to my wife like "My brain isn't working right now. Could we talk about this tomorrow?" I meant it literally, but my psych said my wife was likely to interpret things like that in a different way, because the idea of your brain being out of service is too bizarre for most non-ADDers... Unfortunately, he didn't say how she was likely to interpret it. :faint:

After she went to see him with me, though, a few days later she spotted me with my "1,000 yard stare" and said oh, so that's what it means when you say your brain isn't working.

Thank you Barbyma, Meadde, and Uninchu for sharing your personal examples and answering my questions. It gives me a lot to think about. I'm sorry for getting off the orginal topic. Maybe I should start another thread......

casinowife, was there an original topic...

Nah, I don't think that we need to start a new thread since I was just thinking that conversations do evolve and grow over the course of time, anyway.

Seems to me that the point which barbyma brings up concerning efficacy and self esteem is on target and of timely significance for me personally--thank you. It seems to me that these concepts go directly into defining me as a person and how i proceed and move through my life especially since at this time I feel somewhat ineffectual.

I for one struggle in my attempts to find a focus, to find a style and to motivate myself so that I can effect a target goal... so that i can feel good about a successfully completed task.

I might feel some satisfaction in working through some of my daily and ongoing to do tasks yet I ultimately feel incomplete. I want more yet it appears that my self esteem informs my direction. I am at a stand still...

Recently, while watching an original episode of The Outer Limits, I was impressed by the scientists comment to a man who wanted to undergo an evolutionary transformation of his brain. He wanted to increase his intelligence because he felt that he had little impact and yet he had so much that he wanted and needed to do especially since the dr told him that learning is of no use if a person is not able to use attained knowledge...

For me, i wonder how to get out of my brain, how to express any newly learned information (especially if I can't even remember it. argggg. or how to synthisize this in a meaningfull and workable theory.

My self esteem, perhaps, impacts my ability to create some kind of output. I think that i spend too much time taking in and not much time putting out.

An add issue for me? Yes most likely.

On target with this topic? Who knows.

The big mistake people make when hiring is hiring people like them, rather than people who will complement them. Picking a spouse is kind of like hiring someone...
I both agree and disagree.

Yes, I think it's important that you compliment each other in certain areas. In fact, DH & I do in some, but not enough in others. (Neither one of us is great at managing money, but I'm better than he is, so I do it).

But, compatability is usually based on similarities. Similar values, similar goals, similar viewpoints. I'm not saying that opposites can't work together -- you're proof enough that they can -- I'm just saying that similarities are usually the glue that holds a marriage together.

Now, a business is another issue. I think it's great to have a whole office of people who operate in a similar fashion -- like everyone's direct and to-the-point, everyone has the same vision. But, if everyone had the same strengths & weaknesses, the place would crumble....

My self esteem, perhaps, impacts my ability to create some kind of output. I think that i spend too much time taking in and not much time putting out.

An add issue for me? Yes most likely.


I would guess YES.

Self-esteem will have a great impact on your ability to share what you've put out, but I think ADD is what's keeping you from expressing it.

What I mean is, let's say you are trying to write an essay. If you can't get something on paper because you can't organize your thoughts into a coherent flow and initiate the task of writing, the primary problem is probably ADD-related. BUT, even after you are able to write a brilliant essay, you're not able to let go of it and actually put it out there because of self-esteem....

Did that make any sense? I have a nonADD friend who's been struggling with self-esteem issues for a very long time and is slowly overcoming them. She can write up a storm and put together a brilliant research report or essay, but getting her to actually submit it for publication or presentation at a conference has been very difficult. She's slowly but surely taking more of these risks and is now able to reap the rewards (if you don't buy a ticket, you can't win the lottery!).

Yes, I think it's important that you compliment each other in certain areas. In fact, DH & I do in some, but not enough in others. (Neither one of us is great at managing money, but I'm better than he is, so I do it).I'm lousy at managing money. I know how to, I'm just bad at actually doing it.

But, compatability is usually based on similarities. Similar values, similar goals, similar viewpoints.One value I think is important to share is a commitment to marriage as an institution... :p Also, neither my wife or I am religious, so that isn't an issue for us. We have very different perspectives on a lot of things, but after 11 years of marriage we do tend to have the same thoughts.

Now, a business is another issue. I think it's great to have a whole office of people who operate in a similar fashion -- like everyone's direct and to-the-point, everyone has the same vision. But, if everyone had the same strengths & weaknesses, the place would crumble....Sharing a vision is important for a successful company. Having a strong company culture is probably also important. But I think it's important that people don't do things the same way -- think football team: teams with all linemen and all wide receivers are both going to get clobbered.

My husband has over 200 employee's and what I find amazing is the bad ones always push out the good ones. If they don't give up and quit they give in and go to the dark side...LOL...I use to think there was no such thing as bad employee's, only bad managers but it's the same with the managers. I only wish we had 200 employee's like my husband.

Right now in my life I have absolutely no reason to have such a low self esteem. Maybe that came out wrong. No reason for self esteem to keep declining is what I'm trying to say. I know it started a long time ago. I keep asking myself what could I have possibly done so wrong to make me hate myself so much. Why can't I just be ok with who I am right as this very moment? I've come a long way working with my therapist but I feel stuck. At least I feel like an adult now and I have clear boundaries with others. I know intellectually my insecurities aren't reality but I still hurt the same. For example, I hate my nose and I'm very insecure with my profile and I'm ready to get a nose job but I know when I fix my nose I'll just move on to another body part (I've had my breasts done twice already). My nose didn't make me insecure...I made me insecure. I think I'm getting worse because I'm having a harder time making even simple decisions

I'm lousy at managing money. I know how to, I'm just bad at actually doing it.
LOL!

That's MY problem! Unfortunately, DH is lousy at managing money AND he doesn't know how! ;)

I equate normals and ADHDers(I'm a blend)as 'cool' and 'uncool'.

I've never been patient. I've never been afraid to show awe and wonder. I've ALWAYS noticed 'little things'. It's my nature to be 'chatty'. I've never worried about my 'image' first-just being a good person.

Self-esteem will have a great impact on your ability to share what you've put out, but I think ADD is what's keeping you from expressing it.
exactly! Thanks for clarifying.

And I will take this one step beyond by saying that not only must I organize my thoughts and put them on "paper" I need to access all of my options.


I'll go out and buy a ticket:cool: Of course I will struggle over how much to put down on the table. How much will I risk.

A process which takes lots of self analysis, energy, vision and ORGANIZATION.:faint:

Barbyma, (or anyone else who would like to answer)

You seem to know a lot about low self esteem so I'm hoping you can share your thoughts and opinions on a few questions about it. Do you think one can ever really recover from a low self esteem? What is the main difference in having a low sense of self worth and a low self esteem? Thanks!
In general, self esteem is how you value your self, yourself. Self worth is how you value your self, in comparison to others.

They’re related in a way, particularly in the sense that much of your evaluation of your self worth is accomplished by the same mechanism used to evaluate your self with respect to others; that is, we tend to look at how we dance with others on our inner stage for evidence. So in that sense at least, both self esteem and self worth are relative to your estimation of others.

But self esteem also has as easily demonstrable component that is clearly independent of that relative measure. This apparently doesn’t even require actual direct evidence to support the judgment of one’s self. Typically, one can present experimental subjects individually with a hypothetical task, and they will be able to quickly form a reasonably accurate opinion of how well they might be able to perform.

This can generally be verified by then presenting the task itself, and simply measuring performance. Usually, not much about the results will correlate well with feelings of worthlessness. The fact that positive evidence of personal efficacy often doesn’t seem to counter feelings of worthlessness is a common clinical problem with people suffering from depression (for example).

People that are depressed and experiencing feelings of worthlessness are seldom motivated to actually do much of anything, so there is usually a lack of such evidence anyway. But even when it can be introduced, it may not enter into the evaluation of self worth. It’s not uncommon to hear something like, “Yeah, I’m great at that. So what? What did that ever get me?”

We don’t believe that the extreme examples represent anomalies, but rather evidence of some fundamental underlying differences in the two measures of self you mentioned. It’s particularly germane to AD/HD because of the common ADDer experience of two very different perspectives, one that is common with others and relatively restricted (applicable to evaluating self worth) and another that is a kind of superset of the first, in which one’s attributes and abilities are subject to substantially different criteria.

Unfortunately, many of the positive attributes in our expanded internal ADDer perspective don’t translate to the more restricted common perspective, leading to perfectly understandable views such at the one Robert takes:


I see ADHD as what it truly is; a chronic and disabling medical condition/disorder that occurs across the lifespan.

I see the "uniqueness" as the way(s) in which each of us battles it everyday and in the various accomplishments, however small, we've made.:)
Perfectly accurate in the context of the more common view, in which there is by definition no other possible view.

There’s no tyranny at work in that; since any view that we would be able to share must be common, views that are for the most part uniquely internal (even if they are common to more than one individual) simply don’t qualify.

Nor does any self-affirming advantages to such a view; when Robert says he “see(s) the "uniqueness" as the way(s) in which each of us battles it everyday and in the various accomplishments, however small, we've made,” these are what we can see from the common view.

Personally, we have far more rewarding and self affirming accomplishments in that larger context, as apparently many other ADDers do also. That expanded internal context, common but not generally shared, is in fact shared by the both of us, and this is becoming reasonably common among AD/HD couples.

So we can have the unique (for the moment) circumstance of having relatively private experiences that are both self affirming and contribute to our sense of self worth, because we can evaluate our selves with respect to another.

The only penalty is that we’re left with two sub-classes of evidence supporting our evaluation of self worth, one that is recognized by others and one that only those in a similar situation can appreciate. There’s a reasonably common class of similar experience among ADDers that aren’t tightly coupled as we are, but because it arises through a kind of exertion of internal self-confidence, it’s not necessarily as solid in all situations.


What would you say is the "essense" of the difference between ADD and normals? Since there are so many different types of behaviors between them, I was curious if we could come up with some ideas that point towards some fundamental differences. What are normals really good at that we are not? What are we really good at that they are not? What are they really bad at? What are we really bad at? What is at the core of so many of these skills and deficiencies?
We believe that essence of the difference is entirely due to differences in the way we arrange the logical elements representing information in our brains, what is known as ‘logical structure’. We documented the two prevailing types of structure in the process of trying to explain particular gender related differences in human communication. Here’s an excerpt from a previous post on the subject:

Our original effort was prompted by our own curiosity about gender differences we noticed in ordinary human communication. Specifically, females seem to show a more complete awareness of their gestalt sensory input, which we call the sensorium.

In contrast, males seem to be more adept at identifying and manipulating complex abstract patterns in their sensorium, but with a correspondingly narrower awareness of their general context.
Both skills and deficiencies arise from the fact that the more complex (and newer, in species terms) type of structure allows a superior representation. That doesn’t always result in a better model, if a particular piece of information is already modeled adequately. Nor is the ability to use such a structure necessarily applied in every area of the brain in which it might be useful. (‘Information’ in this context is not restricted to what we recognize as knowledge or memories.)

There are many ways for this to vary among individuals, and we would expect quite a variety among ADDers for at least two reasons: there’s a broader context for variety (because models may be significantly more complex), and we don’t yet have a common model for how we should apply the new structure.

In a sense, we’re each of us on our own, and so there are lots of different takes on what might be an acceptable application of the basic ability. This situation should abate quite a bit in the near future; part of what we’re doing here is beginning to explore these issues so we can forge just such a common model.

One major divide in the way we experience the use of these structures occurs because some of us choose to apply them to areas that are directly involved with conscious experience, and some of us choose instead to suppress the use of the new type of structure in these areas.

This arises as a direct consequence of the action of the impulse to seek normalcy in one’s self and others; the biggest contributor to the appearance of normal thought and behavior is the implied structure of the models we use on a conscious level to interact with others and interpret both their actions and our own.

The continuous process of evaluating one’s self and others in context in this way is related to our ability to communicate, but it’s reflected in almost every aspect of our conscious experience of being. It’s the source of the internal evaluation that produces our sense of both self esteem and self worth, for example.

For those if us who choose to suppress the conscious evidence of the use of the new structure the situation seems relatively simple. Most of the detrimental effects arise from allowing the use of incorrect structures, and the clear goal is to somehow engender a return to the exclusive use of the older, less complex structures, which don’t seem obviously abnormal.

None of this presupposes suppression of the use of the new structure in other areas, including areas that in this scenario continue to function in a sub- or unconscious way. So there are many effects still remaining, primarily related to the differences occasionally arising when modeling one thing two different ways.

If one chooses to use the structure in a full-on flaming conscious mode, the distinction of sub- and unconscious function may slowly disappear. There isn‘t much about one’s own behavior and internal processes that can’t be modeled with the new structure, given sufficient observation.

This leads directly to common phenomena like the ability of some of us (myself included) to casually suppress dental pain by a trivial act of will. There are many other examples, and note that though such abilities might seem like a clear advantage, they require the non-conforming conscious modeling that is seen as a deficiency, perhaps the seminal deficiency.

These examples only touch the surface of the different ways the use of the new logical structures can generate differences that might seem either beneficial or problematical. We have so far been able to relate every ADDer trait we’ve looked at to this single underlying causative factor, by working through the effect on various mechanisms both internal and external, i.e., social and cultural.

The difference is subtle, not so much a difference in the traditional sense between two equivalent things, but more like the difference between a subset and the larger set to which it belongs. No subset can reliably imply the context of the larger set, yet by definition it supplies an appropriate context for operation within it’s own, limited context.

Of course, also by definition the larger set supplies an appropriate context for operations on any part of the set, which because the context is different aren’t guaranteed to give the same result even though they may be applied solely to the subset. So we can have two correct results of an operation on a particular subset, one which is in a sense more correct but neither of which is wrong.

These mathematical principles apply directly to our own experiential situation, accurately describing one aspect of the differences that can be caused by the use of the two different forms of logical structure. The two general views, ADDer-using-the-new-logical-form and Normal-slash-ADDer-using-the-old-logical-form aren’t just different equivalent views; one supercedes the other in a way that may only be obviously significant to the larger view.

Our current cultural context is lousy with examples. It’s where we started, forty years ago, looking at human communication; some of the same kinds of problems still pop up in this forum from time to time.

--T&K

In general, self esteem is how you value your self, yourself. Self worth is how you value your self, in comparison to others…
We should have perhaps noted that that comparison necessarily involves others’ perceived estimate of their own self worth as well, and complex evaluations of such physical attributes as how many toys one has managed to accumulate.

‘Worthlessness’ often refers to feelings of one’s own ability (or lack thereof) to perform in this context, whereas ‘self worth’ is a more ordinary form of continuous self evaluation. As we mentioned, feelings of worthlessness usually arise as an extreme example of the normal process.

‘Self worth’ is intimately related to status in many respects, and as such exhibits a complex (and not always obvious) relationship to underlying issues of reproductive suitability. In particular, the two human mating strategies carry different metrics for many of the elements that may play a part in determining self worth.

:-)


What is at the core of so many of these skills and deficiencies?
So 2 organizing principles, and an end to the debate of 'having or being ADD' ...
a full on embrace of the newer of the two, defines us as being ADD.

Stevo ... your thread, your string ... vibrating.
What do you think?

SB.

In Stevo's absence, his signature:
The important thing in science is not so much to obtain new facts, as to discover new ways of thinking about them.
(Sir William Bragg)

SB.

Yes I do.
I just reread this and realized it sounds like I'm saying, "Yes, I know a lot about self-esteem."

What I meant was, "Yes, I believe one can overcome poor self-esteem."

Sorry for the mix-up!

I understood what you meant Barbyma. So what psychological purpose does a low self esteem have? It's not a defense mechanism and it's not a disorder, than what is it? Do you think a persons self esteem is based on memories and interpertations of our earliest years that then cause a discrepancy between ones actual self and their ideal or ought self?

So what psychological purpose does a low self esteem have?

Low self esteem has a psychological purpose??? So one doesn't feel too vibrant to "fat headed" if said purpose actually exist....

When one considers "self esteem" from where does one derive "esteem"......what is of esteem or constitutes value in your eyes.

What traits are valuable???

If a person values being young valuable and old age as worthless then the natural tendency to grow old the longer one lives will create all sorts of feeling of being worthless as age creeps ups....

on the other hand..

If one values knowledge expansion than age will not hinder a sense of value....

Feelings of poor self esteem are some time caused by what it is that is being valued...a re-thinking esteem a possible shifting of values may assist in the process or "recovery"

If one must be "normal" to be valuable yet is unable to obtain that state of normal (what ever that may be) then the result would be chronic feelings of being worthless (mostly because such a thing as normal doesn't really exist at all).

A second thing here (so much for short) is a comparison issue which I believe was brought up in Stabile's post...

Low self worth is comparing your self to others....and forgetting to appreciate the diversity of individuality.

I am very familiar I felt of little value when I compared myself to other children when I was in the first grade. I felt really stupid because I could not pick up the ability to read like they did. It was obvious even at six I was not able to "see" the reading material as they did because the explanations that allow them to "get it" made no sense to me.....

I was lucky in having a big mouth that was able to some how communicated to my mother that I simply didn't see what it was every one else was able to. I flat didn't understand. I was even more fortunate to have a mother who valued reading and took it upon her self to find another way to introduce the written word.

Writing is still major undertaking (couldn’t tell by the length of my post) for me as in my mind it is more like a translation for me. I have to actually translate the way I process to resemble how others process ...if I compared myself to non-dyslexics then I would feel of little value in the literary world.

If I had the attention span to think about my struggles when deciding to join forums then I would have lived my life feeling incapable...what impulsiveness did for me had nothing to do with deficit....I jumped out here with both feet and joined the world of word exchange.

Because I did not think about my value as a poet or compare myself with a professional journalist my once adversary called dyslexia has actually proven beneficial. I learned by reading post written well above my educational level that it is because I do not recognize words as others I read in context. The larger more complex words rarely interrupt my ability to understand....because I do not "see" the words as most. The way my mother taught me to read was not recognition but comprehension.

What to end poor self worth simply quit expecting to be like some one who isn't you!!!!! Work with deficits/ differences...realize limitations have limitations. An over come limitation is often a gift in disguise!!!! It is all in the attitude…all of reality is!!!!

…I felt of little value when I compared myself to other children when I was in the first grade. I felt really stupid because I could not pick up the ability to read like they did. It was obvious even at six I was not able to "see" the reading material as they did because the explanations that allow them to "get it" made no sense to me...
This is a pretty good example, a general problem that affects a significant percentage of ADDers in a variety of ways.

It’s also a great example of the way that external comparisons and internal evaluation of the self can get mixed up, because (at least in part) we use the same basic apparatus to accomplish both.

In terms of our internal knowledge store, learning something new involves constructing an appropriate set of related logical representations and refining them until some threshold is reached and the initial process is judged to be complete. How this process proceeds is especially important for fundamental skills like reading.

If we model the knowledge with the older normal structure the process may be completely different than that of applying the newer, more complex structure. A more complex representation requires more work and time to reach a particular state of completion, but the real difference is in how such structures are woven into a whole.

In a very real sense, we may assume that our representation of some information (particularly a subject we see as important) is sufficiently complete only when the links to the bigger picture are established, and to a certain extent the bigger picture itself.

But the measure we apply of the success of that completion is purely relative; we judge how well we’re doing by comparing the external manifestation in others of what we assume is a similar process. At the present, nothing in a typical normal childhood tells us that there might be two different ways to acquire knowledge, and that judging ourselves by comparison to the apparent performance of others may be misleading.

The hit on self esteem from early experiences like this can be difficult to repair. Anything that happens at an early enough age with something fundamental like acquiring the trick of written language may be woven into our internal model of what we expect of ourselves in comparison to others.

Such artifacts can color even relatively independent internal assessments of our ability to perform that may become a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure, even in other, unrelated areas. The countering effect of eventually recognizing that one’s internal knowledge store is in some ways better than that of normals often doesn’t affect the impulse to assume new efforts will still be compromised.

And as long as they are to be judged by the same standards as the simpler models constructed with the old logical structure, our efforts will seem impaired. Removing that stigma from our internal view of our selves requires working on a different metalevel, one above the level of individual comparative judgments, to see ourselves as functioning in a fundamentally different way that automatically deprecates all the established standards.

Then, of course, there are the twin problems of needing to define new standards and learning to accept the perception that we function in an abnormal way. Neither is a particularly simple or easy task.

Your mom did a pretty effective job of helping you get started, not merely a case of “(taking) it upon her self to find another way to introduce the written word.” She found a way to introduce you to yourself, and let you know what you needed to do to understand written language was okay with her.

I have never felt the same as everyone else. This goes back as far as kindergarten. I was always in my own little world. I always felt like I knew something they didn't or vice versa. It's kind of hard to explain I guess.

I was always in my own little world. I always felt like I knew something they didn't or vice versa. It's kind of hard to explain I guess.

This may be difficult to explain to people who have never experienced this feeling before but to those of us who have your words are extremely effective in communicating this feeling. I not only know exactly what you are talking about I empathize with you!!!

The more two people have in common (mentally speaking) with each other the fewer words it takes to relay an idea.....

So what psychological purpose does a low self esteem have? It's not a defense mechanism and it's not a disorder, than what is it? Do you think a persons self esteem is based on memories and interpertations of our earliest years that then cause a discrepancy between ones actual self and their ideal or ought self?
Unlike many in the "biz", especially a few evolutionary psychologists that I know (and love!), I don't actually prescribe to the idea that a psychological phenomenon (even a common one like low self-esteem) must serve some purpose.

True that it's a disorder in and of itself, but it's a symptom of many and it's usually an incorrect perception of reality, which is also a symptom of most disorders.

The cause? Any number of things. I am not sure I buy into the whole "ideal self" stuff, either. It's not a theory that's well documented. Self esteem is really about how we measure against others, not a true sense of "self" as an individual, unrelated to others. Self-efficacy is more of an individual thing.

I don't think low self-esteem is necessarily a direct product of brain chemistry, but it's more of a reaction to experiences. Those experiences, however, are seen through a filter that is directly affected by brain chemistry.

If you have anxiety about whether or not people like you, your perception of their behavior is filtered through that anxiety. It warps reality into something else. For example, you might misattribute "distraction" in another person to "disinterest".

So, the solution to the problem is two-fold. First, you need to fix the glasses through which you see the world. Medication and/or therapy. Then, you need to fix the damage that's been done. Convince yourself of your own worth. You can't get out without both.

I know that I spent at least half my life wanting to die. I'm actually very lucky, because the nature of bipolar disorder allows many more bipolars (about 50%) to carry out suicidal plans than those with depression only. Since my correct dx and treatment, I haven't entertained the thought even at the worst moments (like just before my ADHD dx). You could argue that having kids made the difference, but it reaches back to before I even met their father. In fact, I don't think I'd have this family if I'd never "found my feet."

Treating my "warped glasses" didn't just save me, though. It made me a happy, healthy, stable person with reasonable goals and ideals. (IMO) I can truly say that I love who I am (although I still HATE my appearance!!!).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

BTW, Casinowife,

I am just finding it so incredible that you have been thinking of yourself as stupid! You remind me of one of my best friends who went through life for many years thinking she was intellectually "below" some of the dullest (cognitively) people I've met. Thank goodness she's managed to overcome it -- she's about to finish a difficult PhD dissertation!

Tammy, glad to hear you know what I'm talking about and have been feeling throughout my life. :)

A lot of people say I'm shy or not talkative, but it's really that I just can't think of anything to say sometimes. I've always had trouble starting, carrying, and ending a conversation. Part of it is anxiety and self-esteem problems, but most of it has to do with the fogginess in my head and the inability to focus on a particular topic for an extended period of time, especially when the topic isn't of interest. If I am not interested in something, my train of thought is broken easily.

I've always had trouble starting, carrying, and ending a conversation.


I can relate with this. In fact, I usually got lost in my thoughts somewhere in the middle of speech and start having an "empty" eye expression.


.... but most of it has to do with the fogginess in my head and the inability to focus on a particular topic for an extended period of time, especially when the topic isn't of interest. If I am not interested in something, my train of thought is broken easily.


I still remember how proffesor woke me up after class (I was sitting in the front row and got asleep!!!) asking me if the lesson was so boring. Since I didn't recognize his voice immediately I said "Yeah...and the guy is so soggy" :eek:

I still remember how proffesor woke me up after class (I was sitting in the front row and got asleep!!!) asking me if the lesson was so boring. Since I didn't recognize his voice immediately I said "Yeah...and the guy is so soggy

I just had to laugh as this sounds exactly like some thing I would do... :foot: :eyebrow: :faint: