Hey, folks... I know you're out there :)

This forum should have a "recovery" thread for sober folks (and occasionally sober folks) to talk about the *ahem* unique combination of issues faced when recovering from substance abuse and getting through life with ADD.

Issues like: Do you get flack from your 12-step groups because of meds? What about your sponsor?

Do you think "If I just worked a better program, my ADD symptoms would go away"

or "I'm terrified to go on meds because I was such a pill-freak when I was out there"

or "Does this mean I actually am terminally unique?"

My personal favorite: "They just took away my Big Book thumper card because I know several brand-name medicines by name! What do I do?"

Success stories are also a great way to share:

"Now that I'm getting some help for my ADD, I've actually sat down and written a fourth step"

"I actually sat through a whole meeting"

"I made a comittment to (call someone, make coffee, give a birthday cake / anniversary pitch) and remembered!"

Let's see if we can make this happen. :cool:

Ok, I am not in a 12 step program, but I want to comment here if you don't mind...

I have been in them before, and have relatives in several, and I see a HUGE similarity between ADD people and Adult Children of Alcoholics.

Is this just me? Is it just that the people I know happen to be in both categories, or does anyone else see this?

True....Adult Children of Alcoholics, the program, is actually a section of alanon....Alanon is for family members of alcoholics....ACOA addresses the children of alcoholics specifically.....And I think if they look, many ADD'ers might find the possibility of alcoholism in their families...or other addictions.....very common.....

I've been in alanon for years having grown up in an alcoholic home -- (my father is the main alcoholic and my sister and brother are both in recovery; my father is not)......I REALLY saw the progression of alcoholism in my father this weekend.....I went home to Boston to attend a family wedding.....flying back tomorrow....and oh my God -- does alcoohlism progress as AA and alanon says it does....

My father couldn't take a walk with the family on Saturday afternoon and he also fell....NEVER saw this in my life....

Anyway, thanks Sobearcal for starting this thread.....

For me I KNOW after having gone on ADD meds, not only can I sit through an entire meeting I can actually stay long enough to talk to people afterwards....I used to have to run out right after the meeting ended...sometimes before the final prayer....

And get this? I have the patience to do SERVICE work...it's less scarey....I was a group rep once....

and occasionally I will get to a meeting early and just sit there....although this one is still tough for me....:)

Wow. That's a heavy story, joanrdtobe. Alcoholism is just persistent. I bet you'll enjoy the flight home! :).

Being Alanon, did you find you were missing the "excitement" when you started working a program? For me, as a drunk, it was primarily the excitement I was after, the danger, wanting to be where it was all happening, etc. That didn't go away when I sobered up, but has tempered (some) since I've started getting treatment for ADD. I've heard from some Alanons that they felt a "rush" from the chaos and crises of life with an alcoholic. Did you have any of those experiences?

Yes, a total rush...adrenaline running....the next problem to "fix", the crisis to get through....even family fights did it for me...how messed up is that? Yes I'm a definite excitement junkie.... because I'm amidst alcoholism but ALSO because ADD'ERS crave tons of excitement, stimulation anyway...so it's a double whammy.....

And no my attractiveness to excitement has not gone totally away either....I mean adrenaline is adrenaline and it feels good...but I would say tempered describes it well....

Congrats on your sobriety Sobearcal....Your wife or girlfriend must be pleased....is she in alanon?

Nope. Boy met girl on AA campus, as the saying goes :). So while we both qualify (about 14 ways to Sunday, mind you), we make it there rarely. We were both very early on in recovery when we got married, so we spent the first couple of years alternating who was fixing who. It's been 7 1/2 years now, though, and much of that has dwindled away with time and experience. It can still be high drama at times, but those times last less time and are less frequent.

WooHoo! Glad there's some interest in the topic :D

No kidding. you all met in AA....:)

Yes much interest here.....in fact without breaking any anonymities, I know of one other sober alcoholic here on forums and one other person in alanon...that's what I know of, there may be more....

Yes looking forward to flying back to Florida today...I can only take my father (and my mom for that matter....) in small dosages....although I do love them both.....Funny thing is when he's sober, he's a delight to be around....sigh.....:)

Originally posted by joanrdtobe
Yes much interest here.....in fact without breaking any anonymities, I know of one other sober alcoholic here on forums and one other person in alanon...that's what I know of, there may be more....
Outstanding! Bring 'em on in...

Oh, and *Bump* ;)

Tell you what Sobearcal, I'll PM both of them and tell them about this thread you started and ask them if they've seen it......

Do I get any extra points if I have been to all the 12 step groups at one time or another? Or does that mean I have to do extra steps?

I self medicated with Pepsi and Chocolate.

I'm in alanon, not AA but...

there is nothing in AA that says "do not take drugs you need for other medical conditions." Anyone who claims otherwise is badly misguided.

You are the ONLY ONE who needs to explore the REASON you take other drugs, and how much, and under what guidenace. i know it is ESAIER to have a "none" rule, but it is no closer to the gaol of AA of appropriate behavior.

Tell them, if they don't understand, to work their own program and to go to alanon where they learn to stay out of other peoples programs. (Yes that is tellling you and them what to do, but working your own program may be the exception that proves the rule. In any case, you only get to tell them once, not harp or nag.///

Good luck, You have a tough path to walk. Regarrdless, i have faith in your honesty and perception. Besides, you know ADD is real. they don't. How much can you hold their ignorance agaisnt them? consider to Leave them to God.

Besides, other conditions, like ADD, aren't really part of the mission of AA. Stick to conference approved litereature and the focus of the program in AA, seek the other assistance you need elsewhere. (Like I can tell you that, because you are already doing it!)

All in My humble opinion, and not actually recommending any specific actions to take.... :)

Originally posted by Lafnalot
Do I get any extra points if I have been to all the 12 step groups at one time or another? Or does that mean I have to do extra steps? Sounds like the beginnings of some zany mis-adventures, personally. "What meeting is this? Over what am I powerless today?" Makes for long introductions, though.

Hi Im Crissy and Im addicted to ******* everything..................

SObearCAL-

I was wondering what made you realize that you have a problem.

I find myself self-medicating with alcohol and food. I try not to keep the stuff in the house (alcohol, not food :D ). I seem to be okay having a couple of drinks in a restaurant, but if I have stuff at home, I often don't know when to say when. It is just too easy to go back for a refill. I am often depressed (which is a whole other thread!). I think that I drink to numb those feelings.

I am 27 and I don't want to ruin my life. What do you think? Do I have a problem? I am not a falling down drunk. I hold down a good job, own a home, I am happily married.

I think I am more afraid about what that would mean if I did have a problem, you know? That I can't go out to a bar with friends, what do I do at family functions?- where there is always alcohol. My hubby is really into beer. I live in Wisconsin - you can't go anywhere without there being alcohol involved. So, as you can see, more than anything in the world I want to be able to say that I do not have a problem.

I wonder if I am in denial.
:confused:

Originally posted by ferrette1976
I was wondering what made you realize that you have a problem.
I knew I had a "problem" about the first time I had a beer. It was Busch Light. That an otherwise educated young man would debase his palate so is call for alarm in my book :p

Or not... Actually, my Dad got sober when I was 10. I attended "Family Week" at his re-hab and got a good lesson in alcoholism. After I tossed back that first one and felt the effects, I knew I could either stop right there or see it through. Eight years later I was to a point where I could no longer live with the stuff nor without it.


I wonder if I am in denial. :confused: I once heard a story about someone who lived in a dumpster. This person's father had come to find him, and ask him to come home. The response was "No thanks, I'm not that bad off". According to the story, the father turned around and went home. That's denial.

Alanon... "the only requirement for membership is a problem of drinking in a relative or friend."

The are no rules in alanon.

Alanon does not reject or endorse any other program, system, religion, etc.

When in a meeting the focus is maintained on alanon principals, and other self help, treatment programs, and non-conference approved literature and principals are requested to be dealt with before or after the meeting, not during it, to leave the focus of alanon on alanon.

If everything involves ANY drug, it is a problem. Whether it is recognized or not is a totally separate issue.

There is no forcing others to action, inaction, realization, salvation, etc. for somethings our responsibility is properly only for ourselves, though we may continue to cherish others in their errors, we learn to detach from the idea that they are ours to correct or prevent.

Originally posted by Lafnalot
Do I get any extra points if I have been to all the 12 step groups at one time or another? Or does that mean I have to do extra steps?


Crissy: YES you get extra points for attending all 12-step groups at one time or another....but I must say, that's a lot of groups!!!

I mean there's debtor's anonymous, sex and love addicts anonymous, codependent's anonymous, gambler's anonymous, aa, oa, etc etc.

I like Sobearcal's reponse: Over what am I powerless today? That's the issue on which to work the steps....(this is how sponsors have guided me)......But I'm sure you've heard that....:)

This Halloween, if I remain teachable and remember I know absolutely squat..........God will have granted me 20 years clean and sober............the other stuff is a slow challenge

Excellent program walk. Good for you.

Crissy: 20 years without a drink or a drug....wow....we'll have to celebrate....:)

20 years! That's outstanding!

I hope you take a gang of anniversary tokens... :D :D :D

By the way, may I share here??? This thing is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY progressive....yes it is....I'm an alanon...and I've been saying for years that my father is a "functional" drunk....and ya know what? It really occurs to me that if I REALLY get that I'm powerless over my father's drinking, that I cannot classify him as a functional anything ....

Anyway, I have always classified him as a functional drunk...as he's always gotten up in the morning, gone to work never overspent money, etc. etc. He never fell down drunk, never was not able to do the usual life routine, etc.

Well this weekend I saw things in him I ain't NEVER seen in his 76 years on this planet. I had gone home to Boston for a family wedding and so I actually stayed with my mom and dad....and so the day before the wedding we had some family over....and

my father, unbeknownst to me started drinking in the wee hours of the morning...by evening time -- he was SOOO drunk guess what?? He actually FELL....But see, I didn't know it was because of the alcohol in him (with no food)...I thought he was having a heart attack....because I had never seen him fall before because of his drinking...and was I ever scared s_________less....and

THEN when the whole family went for a walk, he could not even stand up straight...NEVER has my father not been able to go for a walk due to his drinking....

sigh....God I AM powerless....my mom and I had a fight over this whole thing...she's in complete denial...I told her to go to alanon..and to talk to my father about A.A....

Anyway, bottom line is I will continue to go to alanon...realize my powerlessness, work the steps on this issue, and pray that the alcohol doesn't take my father to his deathbed the way it did my dad's brother....:)

Wow. Joan. Sorry.

Alcoholic is alcoholic, regardless of all other adjectives. Detachment with love is very hard. It is also very hard to allow others their denial.

As i understand the program, it is our job to keep ourselves safe, and to intervene only as we feel morally required to do, through others... that is, if someone drives drunk, calling the police and giving it into their authority is ok. Trying to prevent them from driving ourselves, other than a single confrontation, is no part of our business.

The relationships of others with our beloved alcoholic are "none of our business." That your mother is in denial is difficult. The way I understand the program, detaching with lovee from those in denial is also our job. That you have to deal with your father and your mother is difficult, and common.

Open AA meetings can be a great aid to some Alanon members. Perhaps you can find something at an Open AA meeting.

I also hope that you have a sponsor and have talked to your sponsor about this event. the program consists of Working the Steps of AA ourselves, having and using a sponsor, the reading of CAL (conference approved literature), and going to meetings.

Good luck! - David

(was I out of line?)

Originally posted by Wheel1975
The relationships of others with our beloved alcoholic are "none of our business." Who would I have to talk to to get this painted onto all runways at Newark Airport? :( My folks would quit asking when we're coming to visit...

Homeland Security, and plant maintenance now, I think.

Smile, and hold your tongue?

Of course, your meeting's Public Information Officer, or your Districts' Public Information Officer may be able to help you channel such a desire in useful and appropriate ways. Of course, PI follows the "do what is right and let God take care of the results" maxum.

We try to remember that when we try to force solutions we can become unreasonable without realizing it.

:) IMHO

The Family Disease




For family members, alcoholism causes a progressive inability to predict their own behavior because of the growing preoccupation with and reaction to another person's drinking.* Generally speaking, if a person is wondering whether alcoholism is the problem, it probably is.* Family members need to hear that the emotions they feel are a normal reaction to alcoholism.* Frequently, they experience a free-floating but pervasive fear.* They are afraid of the alcoholic's reactions and are prepared to settle for "peace at any price."* They worry about bills, accidents and job losses (the alcoholic's and, in some cases, their own).* As they attempt to deal with the erratic, irrational behavior of the drinking, they become confused and increasingly guilty and preoccupied.* As their lives become compulsively centered on trying to get the alcoholic to stop drinking through unsuccessful attempts to manipulate and control, most of their actions only enable the alcoholic to continue the drinking.* Family members are caught in a cycle of repetitive non-helpful behavior that leaves them frustrated, angry and alone.* They feel helpless and hopeless.

Betty Reddy, CEAP
Al-Anon Faces Alcoholism

PS. sorry so many in this thread.

The only reason a sponsor can tell you what to do (ever) is when you ask and give permission and the sponsor judges that specifc advice is appropriate rather than "advice in terms of alanon principles."

Giving others un-requested advice has predictable and poor results, which is a great reason not to give unrequested advice to an alcoholic, or anyone who knows them.

An intervention is never done alone, and never on the spur of the moment.

On top of that, i usually make "no comment" on someones sharing, except in refernce to how it assists my understanding of the topic of the meeting... I've considered this "sharing" to be like before or after meeting time. i hope i did not mis-understand.

http://www.acafg.com/

Originally posted by Wheel1975
Wow. Joan. Sorry.



Open AA meetings can be a great aid to some Alanon members. Perhaps you can find something at an Open AA meeting.

I also hope that you have a sponsor and have talked to your sponsor about this event. the program consists of Working the Steps of AA ourselves, having and using a sponsor, the reading of CAL (conference approved literature), and going to meetings.

Good luck! - David

(was I out of line?)

No you were not out of line as far as I'm concerned David...there were no rules made here with this thread......this is a recovery thread and we're sort of talking and sharing the program the way I see it...and no rules or boundaries were established....and I think your heart is in the right place...that is all that matters....

I DID have a sponsor for quite awhile...until I moved to California to go to school and since then haven't worked much of a program.....Thanks for your support.....I will find some open AA meetings....In fact the 301 club right near me has some...I'm glad you wrote....

And thanks for starting this thread Sobearcal...Sorry I can't help you with a sign in Newark....:(

At least for part of what I posted i tried to stick straight to the service manual... :) the wisdom of CAL is strong, like a large group concious... I find it is frequently the right place to start. So...

Be sure to Get a Sponsor, now! Work th Steps, now! Got to meetings NOW, and read CAL.

If you have an open mind you will find that no situation is so bad that it can't be made better...

:) David

Originally posted by Wheel1975


Be sure to Get a Sponsor, now! Work th Steps, now! Got to meetings NOW, and read CAL.


:) David

Okay....I hear ya:).....I started with attendance at a great and usual Sunday morning meeting....The topic was "blame"....amazingly appropriate....and I shared....I'll go from there....thanks...:)

And last night went to an SLAA meeting and we read the third step....incredible....(my concept of a higher power can actuallyy be a chair if I want it to be -- was one thing I heard) and tonight I'm going to a codependents anonymous meeting....I WILL get a sponsor.....:)

The only things in italics in the 12 steps are also the only things repeated "...God, as we understood Him..."

I over think things, so I found it was particularly helpful thing to drop all my arguements with God, things I did not understand, etc., and just work with what I did understand.

It was a lot less.

It was simple. And I could put my trust in "what I understood" whereas I could not put any trust in "what I did not understand."

I know you are ADHD, so you may like to attack an issue form every appropriate angle at once, ... none the less, you might get better results if you pick a program as your core focus, and attend as many of those meetings as possible and only fill in with other 12 step programs. Where you start is up to you and your best judgement.

And whether this suggestion speaks to you or not should be the basis for your choice, not any implied or granted authority of the suggestor (me.)

As the "Friends" say, "If it speaks to you, listen." Otherwise, HIT DELETE!

Glad to see you are moving in a direction toward help. If you feel comfortable with it, tell us your sonsor's name when you get it... :)

Also, since it may have been some time since you were deep in the program, you might want to remember the suggestion from alanon in "courage to change," to keep specific details to yourself, your sponsor and your God, and speak in meetings (and here) only in terms of 12 step principles...

Okay sounds good....and last night at CODA meeting the topic was "control". I basically shared how I am definitley not in control of others....not my dad, not my roommate.....not others who see things differently than I....the only one I can control is myself....and even THAT is hard....and focussing on myself is hard because my life today and where I (and the God of my understand) have chosen to put myself is challenging.....but it doesn't mean it's not where I'm supposed to be....

so that's what I shared....I THINK that is 12-step principles only...I hope it is....

Thanks David....so how are you doing?

Joan, you are welcomed, and I am doing fine. And so are you/.

I am continueing to deal with the FACTS of my case, that i am not in control of myself as others are who are my age.

I am immature. With a 2 year old it is not appropriate to yell at him and tell him "grow up" and expect to instantly see a miniture adult. AS ADHD is being characterized as a developmental delay, which seems obvious to me, i wonder why it is any more appropriate to hold me accountable for developmental maturity I simply don't have. It is not.

In my mind the key to the 12 steps are several. The group with a focus, having others to measure against, the reality of experience, it is not self appointed experts talking down, and a segregation of what is under my control and what is not.

My line is drawn differently than even those others at the meeting. I truely don't have some of the control that others have. Thus, even though their message is correct: "Only try to control that which is really under your control AND yours to control." What that is for me is LESS than others. Their expectations are inappropriate for my experience, and the observable experience of 1000's of children and ADULTS loosely grouped under the mis-nomer ADHD.

Nonetheless "Keep coming back. It works when you work it, and we're worth it."

PS. There are no rules in Al-non.

I appreciate you checking in with me, (only interms of 12 Step principles) but i am not qualified to be your judge in this. If you feel you shared your experience, strenght and hope, and gave advice only in terms of alanon principles and then only when ASKED, that is good enough.

If your SPONSOR wants to tackle something like that great, but I am male and you are female, and though "I do love you in a very special way," (CAL) I'll not participate in certain parts of your recovery... it has been deemed unwise to cross the gender divide, and I hold to that understanding. Not because I don't care, but because I do, and I think it wise that all issues of gender be excluded, as much as possible.

Group conscience would be the other way for you to get reflections of your appropriateness in sharing, but a good group is likely to allow a new comer or retread or old timer wide latitude to discover their error on their own, if one is made.

Go in Peace ...

David: I agree with and understand about all issues of gender being excluded....I have not been sharing with you in terms of a male/female thing...at least I have not been meaning to.....did you get the idea that I was? I have been talking to you in terms of two ADD'ers and in this particular thread -- two people involved in 12 step recovery....only.....I'm sorry if I have given you any other impression....

I do not expect you nor want you to participate in certain parts of my recovery where you do not feel comfortable.....

So you have a 2-year old child? He/she will certainly benefit from your being in the program....absolutely.....I know my brother and sister's kids do from their being in the program...

Anyway, thanks David....

So how is everybody else doing???

Originally posted by joanrdtobe
David: I agree with and understand about all issues of gender being excluded....I have not been sharing with you in terms of a male/female thing...at least I have not been meaning to.....did you get the idea that I was? I have been talking to you in terms of two ADD'ers and in this particular thread -- two people involved in 12 step recovery....only.....I'm sorry if I have given you any other impression....


Not at all.

But even the most asexual commizeration cannot escape sex roles (frequently) in topics involving important intimates:parents (role definers), siblings, spouses, etc., -- inadvertantly.

It is the bias that BEING different genders introduces, to my understanding, not the content or intention, that causes trouble first.

I certainly did not feel that you were inappropriate in your content or intention.

i just wanted to be clear about why i might not respond wih the unfettered responses that I might to a member of my own sex... And i wanted to be clear (though i seem not to have been) why i might seem stand offish, when i have been so free to be involved at other points.

Sorry to make such a mountain out of a mole hill that does not yet exist.

Okay well glad to have gotten that cleared up....:)

Originally posted by joanrdtobe
So you have a 2-year old child?

"I wish"

No. My maturity is, sometimes, equal to a 2 year old child.

Then sometimes, I'm not quite that old...

Originally posted by Wheel1975


I am immature. With a 2 year old it is not appropriate to yell at him and tell him "grow up" and expect to instantly see a miniture adult. AS ADHD is being characterized as a developmental delay, which seems obvious to me, i wonder why it is any more appropriate to hold me accountable for developmental maturity I simply don't have. It is not.








So this would be your "2-year old child within"....NO do not yell at him....He may be immature but that is okay. He is growing at a rate conducive for ADHD....:) That is fast enough....

Thanks. Inner... hmm... peopel who have to deal wih me seem to think heyare having DIRECT CONTACT with me as a two year old, or younger, and they are right!

My concern is, at 46, that I had better make plans to aquire use of somebodies maturity... i can't keep waiting for my own!

In disability work there are two strattegies: augmentation and substitution.

Augmentation works with what you have. for vision, it might mean magnification if you can't see small things. If you are blind however, no amount of magnificaion is going to help. It becomes time for substitution, listen or use braille to get information in.

I think it is time for many of my ADHD traits to simply move to substitution. Like every "I can do it myself" two year old, when i can, I will. Until then I still need the real world needs met, regardless of other considerations.

Everything from the two year old thing needs its own separate place. sorry about the thread drift!

I guess i dont know where to put it.

Originally posted by Wheel1975
Thanks. Inner... hmm... peopel who have to deal wih me seem to think heyare having DIRECT CONTACT with me as a two year old, or younger, and they are right!

My concern is, at 46, that I had better make plans to aquire use of somebodies maturity... i can't keep waiting for my own!



In my opinion, this is a bit harsh....in my opinion...people who have direct contact with you think they are dealing with a 2-year-old? Okay, what doesn't quite add up here is the fact that the extent of your vocabulary usage throughout here is QUITE advanced....and your use of the english language is also quite advanced and so unless a 2-year old can speak as advanced as you are.....I believe you may be mistaken....Any agreement here?

In any event, as you think this thread maybe should be started "anew" at the 2-year-old child stuff -- yes I realize that these issues aren't officially "recovery" based issues, however, I have heard people bring them up in meetings....so unofficially I believe you're okay with bringing them up here:)

OK.

It (the thread) can stay.

My maturity and my vocabulary are paradoxically independent.

Or...

I'm a very mouthy two year old? Precocious?

The fact is that i am a study in contradictions.

I'd get more appropriate help if I weren't so high functioning, and more of a behavior problem... :)

David

Curious things to say, but true everyone.

Also, as i prepare to go to a 12 step meeting....

The whole "powerless over" trick works because the problem is people exerting effort to control what is one of two things:
1) none of their business: someone else's responsibility
2) really not under their control, but not expected to be by any sane person.

That's why 12 Step work has limited applicability for people with real disabilities...

If you have had Polio, you don't need a 12 Step program to help you with... walking. It's pretty obvious already you can't walk alone, and what is needed to accomodate your situation, and what your part in all this is: use your crutches!

You certainly would think it a misapplication for someone to sit, perhaps in the presence of crutches, and "Let go and Let God" instead of taking up the crutches and walking.

So i am very careful when i start to mix my recovery and my disabilities. Predominately, though I do try to honor these (12 step) principles in everything I do, there are sensible limits. In my humble opinion.

I want ADHD crutches. For life. Period. (Unless I finally "grow up" one way or another and then i fully expect to "do it myself.")

WOOOOOWWWW..........I don't know what to say David....I hear ya....Yes I guess there's no step I can work with regard to my ADD....Can I do a fourth step around my ADD??? Can I take a seaching and fearless moral inventory there???

I mean I guess the question is how has my ADD directly hurt or affected others??? Perhaps it hasn't...The only one it has directly affected or hurt is ME. And so MY ADD "crutches" is my meds.

But apart from my ADD, I'm an addict and a codependent and an adult child of alcoholics, etc. etc. so the 12 steps are still applicable...just not with disabilities. Like you.

Hey enjoy your meeeting.

I even have a book that attempts to use the 12 Steps on ADHD.

There are some places for acceptance, etc., and certainly I have hurt others with my ADHD.

But i cannot "quit drinking" and nolonger exhibit ADHD traits. And i do have faith, but I do not believe faith is an approriate tool to use on a real and permanent disability.

Predominately I don't see "talk therapy" hleping with epilepsy or cancer or broken bones, but i value talk therapy. It just doesn't seem like the right tool to me.

I agree. Certainly there are places for acceptance with regard to ADD. But surrender?

I have done much talk therapy myself.....I value it too but for me it has seemed like a waste. I get MUCH more out of a few good girlfriends listening to me over coffee....they love me and I don't have to pay them to listen to me....

In fact I had lunch with one today and it was great....

Listen, would you care to share the name of the book that uses the steps with ADD and the author??? Maybe someone reading this thread would like to know and I would like to know too....

I would like to check it out in any event, the next time I'm at Borders....(I'm powerless over ADD, and my life is unmanageable....how true...:( )

Originally posted by joanrdtobe
I agree. Certainly there are places for acceptance with regard to ADD. But surrender?

I value it too but for me it has seemed like a waste.

I get MUCH more out of a few good girlfriends listening to me over coffee....they love me and I don't have to pay them to listen to me....

In fact I had lunch with one today and it was great....

Listen, would you care to share the name of the book that uses the steps with ADD and the author??? Maybe someone reading this thread would like to know and I would like to know too....

I would like to check it out in any event, the next time I'm at Borders....(I'm powerless over ADD, and my life is unmanageable....how true...:( )

1) Acceptance not surrender :)
2) I am so confused! Why do you value what doesn't WORK?!?!?
3)I'm looking fo r link my sister sent me. There is a study that identifies the VERY different way women handle stress and how much better it is for them than what men do. (They talk to each other over coffee!)
4) Here's the book:

The Twelve Steps- A Key to Living with Attention Defficit Disorder

by "Friends in Recovery"

Warning! I've not even SKimmed this book thouroughly. (I should too! And I just invited my wife to look at stuff on this board and she may read this post, and she gave me the book,and then... i already feel guilty, so i'll skim it. OK. it is better than I thought. They changed the steps some...)

2. You're so confused....Okay....Why do I value what doesn't work? Because talk therapy is valueable for SOME, so I value it....but it doesn't work for ME:) So I don't value it for ME....but I still value it....just not for ME...

3. I CAN'T wait to see the link your sister sent you....YES we women DO talk things (stressful) over coffee....I did today over lunch with my friend, Susan....I feel like a million bucks, David....I kid you not!!!:) I told her some BIG secrets (yes she is in the program, in case you were wondering)

4. Thanks for the book title....I assume it is available in bookstores...

5. Your wife is going to look at this thread? OH NO!!! I hope I've spelled everything right:D Note to David's wife: Read this thread at your own risk....And please forgive all grammatical and spelling errors and anything that doesn't make sense:)

Subject: UCLA Study On Friendship Among Women

An alternative to fight or flight
>
> C2002 Gale Berkowitz
>
> A landmark UCLA study suggests friendships between
> women are special. They shape who we are and who we
> are yet to be. They soothe our tumultuous inner world,
> fill the emotional gaps in our marriage, and help us
> remember who we really are. By the way, they may do
> even more.
>
> Scientists now suspect that hanging out with our
> friends can actually counteract the kind of
> stomach-quivering stress most of us experience on a
> daily basis. A landmark UCLA study suggests that women
> respond to stress with a cascade of brain chemicals
> that cause us to make and maintain friendships with
> other women. It's a stunning find that has turned five
> decades of stress research---most of it on
> men---upside down. Until this study was published,
> scientists generally believed that when people
> experience stress, they trigger a hormonal cascade
> that revs the body to either stand and fight or flee
> as fast as possible, explains Laura Cousin Klein,
> Ph.D., now an Assistant Professor of Biobehavioral
> Health at Penn State University and one of the study's
> authors. It's an ancient survival mechanism left over
> from the time we were chased across the planet by
> saber-toothed tigers.
>
> Now the researchers suspect that women have a larger
> behavioral repertoire than just fight or flight; In
> fact, says Dr. Klein, it seems that when the hormone
> oxytocin is release as part of the stress responses in
> a woman, it buffers the fight or flight response and
> encourages her to tend children and gather with other
> women instead. When she actually engages in this
> tending or befriending, studies suggest that more
> oxytocin is released, which further counters stress
> and produces a calming effect. This calming response
> does not occur in men, says Dr. Klein, because
> testosterone---which men produce in high levels when
> they're under stress---seems to reduce the effects of
> oxytocin. Estrogen, she adds, seems to enhance it.
>
> The discovery that women respond to stress differently
> than men was made in a classic "aha" moment shared by
> two women scientists who were talking one day in a lab
> at UCLA. There was this joke that when the women who
> worked in the lab were stressed, they came in, cleaned
> the lab, had coffee, and bonded, says Dr. Klein. When
> the men were stressed, they holed up somewhere on
> their own. I commented one day to fellow researcher
> Shelley Taylor that nearly 90% of the stress research
> is on males. I showed her the data from my lab, and
> the two of us knew instantly that we were onto
> something.
>
> The women cleared their schedules and started meeting
> with one scientist after another from various research
> specialties. Very quickly, Drs.Klein and Taylor
> discovered that by not including women in stress
> research, scientists had made a huge mistake: The fact
> that women respond to stress differently than men has
> significant implications for our health.
>
> It may take some time for new studies to reveal all
> the ways that oxytocin encourages us to care for
> children and hang out with other women, but the "tend
> and befriend" notion developed by Drs. Klein and
> Taylor may explain why women consistently outlive men.
> Study after study has found that social ties reduce
> our risk of disease by lowering blood pressure, heart
> rate, and cholesterol. There's no doubt, says Dr.
> Klein, that friends are helping us live longer.
>
> In one study, for example, researchers found that
> people who had no friends increased their risk of
> death over a 6-month period. In another study, those
> who had the most friends over a 9-year period cut
> their risk of death by more than 60%.
>
> Friends are also helping us live better. The famed
> Nurses' Health Study from Harvard Medical School found
> that the more friends women had, the less likely they
> were to develop physical impairments as they aged, and
> the more likely they were to be leading a joyful life.
> In fact, the results were so significant the
> researchers concluded, that not having close friends
> or confidants was as detrimental to your health as
> smoking or carrying extra weight.
>
> And that's not all. When the researchers looked at how
> well the women functioned after the death of their
> spouse, they found that even in the face of this
> biggest stressor of all, those women who had a close
> friend and confidante were more likely to survive the
> experience without any new physical impairments or
> permanent loss of vitality. Those without friends were
> not always so fortunate. Yet if friends counter the
> stress that seems to swallow up so much of our life
> these days, if they keep us healthy and even add years
> to our life, why is it so hard to find time to be with
> them?
>
> That's a question that also troubles researcher
> Ruthellen Josselson, Ph.D., co-author of Best Friends:
> The Pleasures and Perils of Girls' and Women's
> Friendships (Three Rivers Press, 1998). The following
> paragraph is, in my opinion, very, very true and
> something all women should be aware of and NOT put our
> female friends on the back burners.
>
> Every time we get overly busy with work and family,
> the first thing we do is let go of friendships with
> other women, explains Dr. Josselson. We push them
> right to the back burner. That's really a mistake
> because women are such a source of strength to each
> other. We nurture one another. And we need to have
> unpressured space in which we can do the special kind
> of talk that women do when they're with other women.
> It's a very healing experience.
>
> Taylor, S. E., Klein, L.C., Lewis, B. P., Gruenewald,
> T. L., Gurung, R. A. R., & Updegraff, J. A. Female
> Responses to Stress: Tend and Befriend, Not Fight or Flight"

Okay ladies -- this article would make a wonderful gift to give to your female friends to show them JUST how much you appreciate them....

And remember DON'T dump your girlfirends JUST because you get a boyfriend.....

David: Could you please e-mail this to me so that I may e-mail forward it to to a few special friends?????

Originally posted by joanrdtobe
Yes I guess there's no step I can work with regard to my ADD.

Far out... & I thought this thread had died, 'cause I stopped getting "a new post..." e-mails.

Went to one of those meeting thingies last night at the suggestion of my sponsee (:p ). This particular meeting starts at midnight (at Lestat's coffee house if any of you find yourselves in America's Finest City), and begins with a reading of the next day's Daily Reflection.

October 14th's starts out with the 10th step portion of the Big Book (p. 80 something -- don't pull my thumper card just yet), and then remarks that starting and ending our days as suggested on these pages allows us to let God manage our day for us.

God manages my day.

*lightbulb*

'Cause for 32 bleeping years, I've been doing a particularly poor job of it. 11,845 seperate chances to manage a day, and I haven't done one right. In business school, we'd suggest that I outsource that particular need to someone more capable.

So, for me, continuing to take personal inventory should read: "how much of my day did I try and run, and how much did I outsource?", and when I was wrong should read: "what were the consequences of working around my day-manager, and to whom do I owe reparations as a result?".

Peace,

-Christopher

The NA big book has a chapter entitled "More WIll Be Revealed," which is all bout having to take meds for a legitimate medical problem by an informed physician. ADHD qualifies as such.All my docs know Im in recovery and I try and keep my sponsor up to date on whats going on .I sought his advice on my idea to try Concerta.

Here's a news story that I think is relevant to this thread...
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2571

Shameless bump.

The powerlessness of ADD is mindblowing. I'm off the concerta, but my personal life is falling apart at the seams, perhaps as a result.

I feel as powerless over the first distraction as I did/do over the first drink, and it has the same effect. Who's with me in this? What are you guys doing to change?

-Christopher

I'm with you sobearcal/Christopher.....I'm powerless over the first "space-out".....just as much as my addictions......and as a result I get very embarrassed.....(at work, where the spaceouts happen)........

Doing to change? TRYing to make amends/take responsbility by at least showing my boss that I am aware of my spacey behaviors and trying to make changes......

And letting go... :cool:

Or at least, that's what seems to have worked best.

I've spoken to work. They're on notice to bring me back to earth when necessary. They've been very kind with me.

Ach, maybe I should just go back to the MD and get back on Concerta. At least life was predictable then.