Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

I wonder if this works as well, worse, or better with ADD people?

Very interesting...... well when I was reading your post I had no problem, and I think I may have read it even faster than I would have read it if it were written normally.

I had no problem either, how weird! My teens had a problem though. Interesting...

That was cool...I wonder if I should start writing my Internal Memos at work like that? :D

I had no problem either. Hmmm...Maybe the CIA needs to hire ADDrs as coders and decoders.

Sleepz

Cool !!! .... :D :cool:

:D Co0! Grnining form ear to ear.

Yes, very cool Paul.....Regarding a job application in Miami....maybe I'll fill it out just like that....in the "special skills" section...LOL.....

inst taht the nalorm wiegh to right

Ya but sorht wrdos aenr't mcuh fun!

though the substitution was great! weigh for way!

and "right" for "write".....!

You know I noticed that too... I thought I read it faster than if it had been spelled properly. I was wondering how the rest of you would react to it.

Of csorue it is a lot hadrer to atclluy wiert taht way! Tekas a LOT lgoner to mpsislel wdros tahn to dcodee tehm...

Remarkable! I'm asking myself if we were really quicker, or just not much slower (and much quicker than you'd expect). But it is amazing - even if you race through it, you get it just as easily as skim reading, suggesting you are doing no additional decoding at all.

Maybe we read it quicker because we do not waste time checking spelling (not that I would consciously do that very often, but I certainly have a highly engaged critical faculty when I read, and, depending on my mood can do a lot of unnecessary checking).

Id have to vote on the not checking spelling as when we write and do make mistakes , when we don correct them and someone reads it they get the jist of what were saying

instead of trying to change the letters around as were doing for fun we should just accept the fact that we dont spell worth a poop and continue to spell phoneticly as I do. I dont need to spell correctly as I have a machine that does it for me.

I think maybe that we are trying to hard to please the linear thinkers by trying to spell and gramaticly organise when we write.

When we are at home here and runing off with verbal diarrea we dont get excited about spelling and nobody ever corrects us so we are very happy to continue to post.

We are not self consious about spelling yet in the real world we/I spend more time trying to make my information and the format that it is in pretty so that some linear thinker who is reading it wont be critisizing me to all the other co-workers (behind my back )just to make themselves feel better.

Maybee its just my insecurity and emotions making me parinoid about it when I do a report but I dont think so as I have had someone point out my bad spelling and lack of formating before and the fact that we are even discussing it as a group then I tend to believe that Iam not alone in these thoughts

So I guess it once again goes back to we need to have a place in life where the linear thinkers will leave us alone and allow us to do what we do best as opposed to trying to get us to do there work for them so they can present my report to whoever and claim the credit as if they did the work

Negetive oppinion and emmotions setting in so time to end this post.

I think this is a demonstration of parallel pattern matching and word rather than sequenxe ID.

I tend to agree with Wheel1975 on this issue. It's not as much of a matter in decoding as it is a matter in disambiguation. Our minds quickly do a brute force search of known simliar words and select the correct word based on lexical context. If such an assumption were valid, then one of the following should be easier to parse than the other:

1: The of eraptolaxtoin ertine ediexnpet slef rvoleves lgoical cpnocet aiuqsticoin aunord.

2: The ertine cpnocet of ediexnpet slef aiuqsticoin rvoleves aunord lgoical eraptolaxtoin.

Although I have always been a good speller, I tend to make errors because of phonetic ambiguities. For example, I repeatedly spell receive as "recieve". I also used to spell always as "alwase". Although I can easily spell some longer, more esoteric words, some words like tomorrow stump me, yelding expansions like "tomarro", "tomarrow", or "tomorro". It's a good thing that I have /usr/dict/words (a common file on UNIX and UNIX-like systems containing a list of correctly spelled words).

It is also obvious sometimes in my writings that I deal with computer programming languages as a token of punctuation often proceeds a closing quote, the way it really should be.

Originally posted by HighFunctioning
Although I have always been a good speller, I tend to make errors because of phonetic ambiguities.

It is also obvious sometimes in my writings that I deal with computer programming languages as a token of punctuation often proceeds a closing quote, the way it really should be.

The first a problem you would not have in Spanish.

The second, and interesting example of "normal peoples" willingness to remember to "put on their shoes and socks" regardless of the fact that actually DOING SO would result in destroying many pairs of socks!

Originally posted by Wheel1975


The second, and interesting example of "normal peoples" willingness to remember to "put on their shoes and socks" regardless of the fact that actually DOING SO would result in destroying many pairs of socks!

Sounds like something I would have done when I was young. This generally relates to the NT term "common sense". I am fortunate as the attitude directed torward me with repect to this is very different these days.

As I like to say, common sense is the phenomenon that all NT people seem to think alike. If the thought pattern of a non-NT person conincides with this, it is either called "dumb luck" or "logical reasoning" (in the cases where an NT's thought pattern is logical).

As far as Spanish goes, yes, for the most part, the language is phonetically unambiguous. However, as my auditory processing tends to be poor, the rate at which spanish is typically spoken defeats the unambiguity in the context of transcribing speech.

I did a uni degree before I got diagnosed and I used to wonder why I never did well in the essays. Later after being mediacated, I realised that I'd written all my sentences back to front.

If you write: The cat sat on the mat or
On the mat the cat sat or
The cat on the mat sat

I would still read it the the cat sat on the mat. As long as all the words are in the sentence it doesn't matter what order it's in.

Originally posted by tudorose
I did a uni degree before I got diagnosed and I used to wonder why I never did well in the essays. Later after being mediacated, I realised that I'd written all my sentences back to front.

If you write: The cat sat on the mat or
On the mat the cat sat or
The cat on the mat sat

I would still read it the the cat sat on the mat. As long as all the words are in the sentence it doesn't matter what order it's in.

I am fascinated... what order(s) did you use that you considered backwards...

Was it predicate first?

subject verb predicate is "normal"

predicate subject verb is like reverse polish notation (used on HP high end calculators)

subject predicate verb

predicate verb subject would be "straight" backwards.

verb subject predicate
verb predicate subject

Then also how you placed phrases and adverbs and adjectives... before or after the word modified.

It is important to me if you can find your papers and actually count how many of each structure you used. the numbers of each are important to me. I have and idea.

And even more important, when unmedicated, which form did you
a) produce more readily, easily
b) read back to yourself more readily, easily?

The more papers you can find the better, espcially a history of drafts if you can... how it started and how it progressed and how it ended up.

I wonder if you would be willing to supply them to a research project (for free :) ) for a College of Education project, if i can start one on it?

Very seriously, David

Extremely interesting. I didn't have any problem reading it either.

Originally posted by tudorose
I did a uni degree before I got diagnosed and I used to wonder why I never did well in the essays. Later after being mediacated, I realised that I'd written all my sentences back to front.

If you write: The cat sat on the mat or
On the mat the cat sat or
The cat on the mat sat

I would still read it the the cat sat on the mat. As long as all the words are in the sentence it doesn't matter what order it's in.

Not really unusual. The sentences you give as example are still lexically valid (with added punctuation, of course). This is a sign of actually parsing the sentence as opposed to "reading" it. I tend to read like this, too. I also tend to be a highly interpolative/extrapolative reader. When reading aloud, I tend to reorder words or substitute some words with completely different sounding words that are synonyms. I also notice errors in the overall lexical structure of a sentence as I read (not when proofreading) to the point of slowdown or stopping. Unfortunately, this is all useless as I retain very little of what I read. All of this may manifest from my auditory processing deficiencies.

Originally posted by Wheel1975


I wonder if you would be willing to supply them to a research project (for free :) ) for a College of Education project, if i can start one on it?

Very seriously, David

I'll have to have a look in my disaster of a study. Unfortunately too, they are all hand written.

It wasn't that any particular order of words came first. I think it was just a random selection (probably due to a hyper / impulsive brain trying to get it all out before I forgot what I was thinking). I never noticed it in the editing process either. I think though that it was partially due to my Dad who used to talk back to front too (like Master Yoda) to the point that my husband couldn't understand him and I had to translate! I think Dad has LD's.

I had no problem with the text, and did not feel that I was "decoding" each word - it was definitely a context thing.
I don't read regular text word by word, though. On a plain page, I read several lines at a time. I can read upside down and mirror image at nearly the same speed I read regularly (very fast). I have always wondered what abberation allowed me this skill - do you think it could be somewhat related?

Originally posted by tudorose

I think though that it was partially due to my Dad who used to talk back to front too (like Master Yoda) to the point that my husband couldn't understand him and I had to translate! I think Dad has LD's.

Yes. Your environment could be the COMPLETE explanation for your back to front pattern... we learn what we see to an extent. But then your father may be the source of an "organic" difference, not you.

At the same time, you may retain the "difference" and express it less completely.

Impossible to tell from this point.

There are "genes" implicated in some very rare problems with grammer.

Who knows!

Originally posted by tudorose


I'll have to have a look in my disaster of a study. Unfortunately too, they are all hand written.

I might be willing to deal with that.

It wasn't that any particular order of words came first. I think it was just a random selection

I'd like to do statistics on it to see what kind of random distribution it describes.

(probably due to a hyper / impulsive brain trying to get it all out before I forgot what I was thinking).

Exactly my thoughts. But that it WORKED for you is the important part, and WHAT worked for you by accident might work for someone else on purpose!

I never noticed it in the editing process either.

Which in my mind makes it more significant.



If it is not too much trouble, I'd like to keep the option open to ask you for your materials. Would it be ok to leave that option open?

Originally posted by Wheel1975


If it is not too much trouble, I'd like to keep the option open to ask you for your materials. Would it be ok to leave that option open?

Yep that's OK. Just give me some time to find them though.

I kind of think of it in the same way that I do creativity. Basically, brianwaves collide and you come up with good ideas - not so good for written work though. My degree was in photography & filmmaking so thankfully I was able to do well in those areas coz I think in pictures and feelings rather than words (medication changes that).

I'm very interested in that tudorose... you said medication changed the way you think? Do you mean you DO now think in words rather than in pictures and feelings?

I should ask you some other questions, but it may be a few weeks. i am faced with learning a great deal in a short amount of time to "preserve" some contacts that i have made.

Originally posted by waywardclam
I'm very interested in that tudorose... you said medication changed the way you think? Do you mean you DO now think in words rather than in pictures and feelings?

I can do both now. Tend to revert back to the pictures when the meds wear off. It's good though - come up with creative ideas at night and execute them during the day.

Originally posted by tudorose


I can do both now. Tend to revert back to the pictures when the meds wear off. It's good though -




come up with creative ideas at night and execute them during the day.

That is adaptive!

Reading the initial post of this thread screwed up my spelling for a long time.

it is like it simply unhitched it from the post it was hanging on!

It is fatser to raed, mcuh solwer to tpye. I wnoder how lnog it wolud tkae to becmoe prfocieint at it?

Wired. I read this knid of thnig olny aplpy to dsyleixcs beacuse tehy olny raed the sahpe of a word, and not the lettres (acordcnig to rcearseh). Gsues not! Vrey inrteinestg. All toshe books I raed taht tlod me this wree flul of siht if envroyre can do it! Waht a wstae of my tmie! Ah! Reaescrah!

Being in the UK this post only came to my attention a completed work, as it were.

I just though i would add my two penneth worth.

When i first saw this post it made perfect sence to me and reading the altered coding of the words was easy.
However within about half an hour it made no sence at all and i had to seriously work hard to get anything reasonable out of it.

The difference between the first reading and the second was Concerta.

The other interesting thing i found was my Dyslexic daughter, who is seriously struggling with decoding even very short words, found it no harder or easeir to read the first post when i copied it decoded for her as well. That is to say she managed to read about 50% of both.

To give a little background. My daughter is eight but has the reading age of about 6 and a very tiny vocabulary of sight words. She is part way through an assesment for dyslexia and also has ADHD. Her ADHD has masked the dyslexia for a long time as well as her incredible memory and problem solving abilities. Her first teacher though she was doing very well untill it was discovered that she had memorised vertually every book in her ability group.

I feal with hindsite that i should have picked up on this and got her help sooner, as memorising text was one of my coping methods (though it only worked when there were illustrations as well). Looking on the possitive side i would say she shows a remarkable ability to work around her problems.

I think your biggest challenge will be to EMPLOY the coping mechanisms, in appropriate ways. virtually everyone will want to remediate her weaknesses to the EXCLUSION of spending time on applying her abilities.

I think that is fine until you get to the EXCLUSION part.

She will GAIN much more from being taught how to employ her strengths than she will from being improved from a low reader to a slightly better low reader.

It is a game theory and systems approach analysis. I expect many will argue against this position and premise, and I haven't the energy to oppose them, wrong as they may be. Let that be their project alone.

IMHO.

Ok that brought me up short.
I have a skewed vallue system in that whatever a persons strengths, no matter how society vallues them, are worth expanding and using to their best abilities.
So i dont condone fraud but i also concider it theft everytime someone pays for the label alone.

I suddenly realised that school is going to try and do exactly what you say. They are going to try and turn her from a poor reader to a passable reader, using only skills they vallue and not taking advantage of her inate strengths at all.

They spoke of her wonderfull memory as a handicap in learning what she needs to know, more than once. What on earth can i do to rectifie that though.

Originally posted by capri
Ok that brought me up short.
I have a skewed vallue system in that whatever a persons strengths, no matter how society vallues them, are worth expanding and using to their best abilities.
So i dont condone fraud but i also concider it theft everytime someone pays for the label alone.

I suddenly realised that school is going to try and do exactly what you say. They are going to try and turn her from a poor reader to a passable reader, using only skills they vallue and not taking advantage of her inate strengths at all.

They spoke of her wonderfull memory as a handicap in learning what she needs to know, more than once. What on earth can i do to rectifie that though.

First take a deep breath.

Confession time: I have recently told an adult i am training that we are going to do the similar thing. We are going to disable an over developed strength, short term, to allow an underdevelped but demonstrably trainable one to develop.

There are differences. In children, development is real. Not being ready is not "negotiable" nor is it "forcable." Not ready is not ready developmentally.

The other is PROPORTION. (balance o fusing strengths AND remediateing weaknesses. Success is required in a day, and two to one over failures and difficulties)

The other is FOCUSes. (ie, having more than one! Remediation is not the only job. training to use strenghts is also teaching.)

The fact is, she has stronger strenghts than they do... they have no idea how to function with those strengths and no imaginiation or system to help them, and worst, no inclination to try.

I work with learning disabled adults and children(some who are gifted, normal, and below average otherwise). I figure out how they work and how they don't and adapt everything else to use what works and avoid what doesn't.

There are many challenges:

map strenghts and weaknesses, abilities and NOT abilities. Some things ARE black and white, others ARE shades of gray. Being "porochial" about it really screws things up. Deal with reality.

Don't force someone to do a thing in a way that requires as a defacto prerequisit the aboity to do somthing ELSE that they simply cannot rely upon! (This is different from "can or cannot do!")

Use demonstrated strengths EVERWHERE possible, conceivable, and then some. Look for demonstrations of odd ball alernatives to the ways "normal" people do a thing as evidenced in the results, performance, methods and comments of the student in question.

Admit that sometimes a performance problem or defincency is NOT a disability, but a lack of appropriate or effective training. Be willing to use the method that works, even if it involves lots of repetition, or what ever.

Don't assume repetition, or what ever, will blindly work against any difficulty: it won't. Judgement is required. There is NO alternative to having good judgement where judgement is required.

Ask the student questions. Heed their responses. Contradict their extensions or assumed ramifications only if you must, but virtually NEVER contradict reports of explicit experience because of your own preconceived notions. Distinguish "experience " reporting from inference reporting.

Ask questions. Allow for about face turns without penalty. Allow time to think, observe, reflect, for both the teacher and the student.

Don't ignore what you know, don't be timid, and admit error immediately when it becomes apparent.

These are the principles i believe provide success for my students. Some must be held by the teacher, some by the student.

Good luck.

Thank-you,

Reading that i realised i was falling into the "teach her what everyone says she needs to know" not expand on her strengths and use lateral thinking to overcome her frustrations.

I have been told many, many, many times that i need to just repeat the exercises with her untill it clicks.
So i felt guilty about not being able to force her or myself into doing that. i felt guilty that i would ditch the whole subject matter provided by the teacher and go play at writing words in the sand pit or whatever.

My daughter has never managed to learn anything by rote, infact i am not sure if i ever did either. i need to learn the mechanics of somthing. to mentally pick it up and figure how it works and take it appart. Just knowing something "IS" simply isnt enough to get it to stick. I think she is the same but i just cant seem to get anyone to understand that round here.

I siad a pretty similer thing to her teacher and she gave me the look (usually reserved for people who just grew an extra head) and said "Well how do you propose to make every single word in the english language a remembered object using that theory"

I geuss she had a point to some extent. I think she really meant that they just dont have time for that.

So i wonder, do you know if there is a way to do what i think she will need.

No.

I agree with you...

She (the teacher) has no point. Only limited imagination! Experience, and willingness. (Her experience is limited most by her lack of willingness., IMHO)

This is what i do for a living... exactly -->
figure out how to use what we have (your daughter has) to work with to do again what has already worked once, somewhere in experience, yours or hers.

If you'd like more explicit and intimate help, contact me directly. PM, email etc.

I don't want to cut you off. If I'm really going to be involved I want it to really work for you. That may require a change in our relationship. We'll have to see.

If you are forced to "do it yourself" you will need to read lots, watch videos, and arrange for others to participate.

Possible, but like geting a Masters degree, without getting the acknowledgement. lots of work for you, and potentially good results for your child and maybe others too.

I dont need acknowledgement.
If i did i seriously dont think parenting would work for me?

I'll get the list of easy to watch videos up that I think might contribute to your sense of what you can do, what you need to do, and how to do it.

I like the ones in the www.pbs.org LD area.

http://www.shoppbs.org/home/index.jsp

http://www.shoppbs.org/category/index.jsp?categoryId=1377931


http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1406890&cp=1377931

More later...

Thank-you Wheel i am looking them up now.

Here is a list. These all contain messages that I would stress if I were working with you on a professional basis.

(Contain, not comprise... there is plenty that will "not apply" to your situation.)

Drum role:

videos...
Richard Lavoie:
#1
Learning Disabilities and Discipline with Richard Lavoie
When the Chips are Down
#2
Learning Disabilities and Social Skills with Richard Lavoie
Last One Picked... First One Picked on
#3
Understanding Learning Disabilities
How Difficult Can This Be?
The F.A.T City Workshop
Presented by Richard Lavoie

Robert Brooks
#4
Learning Disabilities and Self-Esteem
Look What you've Done!
Stories of Hope and resilience
Presented by Dr. Robert Brooks

Books:

#5
Educational Care
A System for Understanding and Helping Children with Learning Differences at Home and at School 2nd Edition
by Dr. Mel Levine

#6
Who Moved My Cheese?
by Spencer Johnson, M.D.

#7
Death March
The Complete software Developer's Guide to Surviving "Mission Impossible" Projects
by Edward Yourdon

There is of course, a great deal more on my shelf and in the library of value.

Locally we have a lending library in our local Learning Disabilities Association office. Seek something similar in your area, it is cheaper than buying them all, and it supports a synergy of having materials concerning the subject in one physical place. I believe in physical serendipity.

Good luck.

(Let me know what you make of all the responses, here and through PM. I really don't want you abandoned... but I do want you to have the right to disengage, or engage as serves you. I'll take care of myself. < smile >)

Originally posted by HighFunctioning
It is also obvious sometimes in my writings that I deal with computer programming languages as a token of punctuation often proceeds a closing quote, the way it really should be.
Yes, yes, yes! It's a lot more logical that way, anyway... but one of the main reasons that I punctuate quotes like that is because printf("Hello world;") just doesn't compile. :p

Originally posted by HighFunctioning
Sounds like something I would have done when I was young. This generally relates to the NT term "common sense". I am fortunate as the attitude directed torward me with repect to this is very different these days.

As I like to say, common sense is the phenomenon that all NT people seem to think alike. If the thought pattern of a non-NT person conincides with this, it is either called "dumb luck" or "logical reasoning" (in the cases where an NT's thought pattern is logical).
I'm not sure who originally said it-- I've seen it attributed to a number of famous people-- but I heard a quotation a while back that "common sense is neither common nor sensible". And that's something with which I very much tend to agree...

As far as Spanish goes, yes, for the most part, the language is phonetically unambiguous. However, as my auditory processing tends to be poor, the rate at which spanish is typically spoken defeats the unambiguity in the context of transcribing speech.
Argh, yes. I have no problem reading things in the foreign languages I know something of, but I have the hardest time understanding them when spoken. Of course, it doesn't help that I also have a hard time understanding English when it's spoken! :D