I took judo for a few years in college, and I had a very demoralizing inability to make any attacks. I could counter an attack fairly well, but never go for a throw myself. I started getting back into it a little and the problem remains.

Recently at a CHADD conference, it was mentioned that "procrastination" was a very inaccurate word for what is an impairment in the ability to initiate behavior. Ah-ha! Do I see a connection?! It sounds about right--what I have heretofore interpreted as garden-variety cowardice and/or fright could quite easily fit an inability to choose and iniate from a fairly large menu of options under pressure.

So my questions are these: Does anybody else have this problem? Any strategies for overcoming it?

This is very interesting...

What a lot of people with ADD find is a difficulty with initiative. This would seem to describe what you are going through.

I don't share your experience... I play a lot of strategy games and I LOVE taking the offense in them. I am highly competitive and I often find that the one who makes the first decision, i.e. takes the initiative, is the one who dictates what kind of game (fight) will happen... so taking and keeping the initiative is a good way to keep things happening in your style.

Imagine if you as a judo fighter take on someone who specializes in a different style. If you attack first, you are starting the contest as a judo fight; if they attack first, they are starting things in a style you are not familiar with. Who has the advantage, you or him?

I wouldn't feel bad about it though. Maybe it's your strength to specialize in reacting and countering opponent's attacks. Many world class martial artists (and many entire martial arts) work from similar styles and philosophies... the idea that first you discern what your opponent is doing, then counter it in the best way appropriate to whatever it is, and then finally, turn it against him. This style very much appeals to people with pacifistic philosophies.

Maybe the style you are practicing is not compatible with your instinctual philosophy, as Paul is saying. To Shin Do and Aikido are two styles of martial arts that focus much on reaction. They have gentle pacifict philosophies but are capable of delivering severe injury if necessary, "IN RESPONSE" to the situation.

Just a thought.

As for the initiation of action being so severe as to impede you're sports ability, I think that may be a misinterpretation. I take it to mean that one may have trouble getting started, but the fact that you are in class, taking Judo, means you overcame the initiation obstacle, if any.

Another possibility I am sensing, is the possibility of something interferring with your mental sharpness, which is what you are expressing a concern over. However, the source may not be just ADD alone, but something additional like poor sleep, sleep apnea, daytime awakened narcolepsy, depression, anxiety, worrying, etc.

My suggestion, better nutrition with something to increase mental awareness....and/ check the sleep situation for mazimum alertness in the day. Improve anything you do by meditating about it. Give yourself a reward system for attacking, if that is your desire. Literally write down the rewards you will give yourself, for increasing your ability in attacks, your frequency of attacks, etc, and make sure the reward is small, easy, simple to obtain, simple to live up to, and followed through on the same day. Fast rewards equals fast change.

Just some thoughts off the cuff....hope they are relevant, it's what I would look at if it were me having the same concerns.

Jonathan

I agree with Jonathan's advice about Aikido -- I took it while a kid to compensate for a tendency to attract bullies.

It is based on reaction, not action, although most of the moves are derived from judo and karate (and other styles), and it turns the force of the attack back on the attacker -- the harder he hits, the harder he falls.

I think that is the secret of the impressive performances of high-ranked aikidoka against simultaneous attacks by many opponenents from all sides -- it isn't a contest of strength or endurance, since, literally, the attackers are doing all the work.....

I don't know much about To Shin Do, can't comment on that.


Ken

Time is a distinct problem for some people with ADHD and LD. There is also sometimes a problem with not being able to "knock the choices out of perfect balance." Everything is equal in the abstract, so one can't be chosen over another, whereas when someone else commits to an act (an attack) they destroy vast numbers of options, and unbalnace the remaining ones. It becomes relatively clear what responses are better, and what are worse, and there are fewer of them.

First, pick a style that works with you rather than against you. If you get "serious" about self critism, be sure you have plenty of the basics... rest, sleep, food, exercise, social contact.

Perhaps, try to better understand who and waht you are, change less and ustilize your nature more. Don't fight the jungle.

I do Karate and I have the same problem. I only know how to defend and not attack. I think it's something to do with the fight or flight mechanism. Also I have no sense of timing. I can't see when I should attack. To me there is no opening to do so coz my brain doesn't work quickly enough.

I wonder if the Interractive Metronome therapy, which is used for athletes to understand their own timing, and improve their timing, would help you in your martial arts. That is another area I would check into. Its apparently designed and used with professional athletes to improve their performance, but they found out in the process that athletes with ADD also improved in their concentration and other symptoms of ADD. So now it is offered as an ADD therapy. There is a thread here on it. Check it.

Jonathan

I have a "far out" theory on this, based purely from my own experience.

First a question: Do you find this inability in "gentle" persuits, such as eating (be the first one to dig in), dancing (not asking to dance but leading), etc?

My theory is that we "hunters" are capable of very great violence. I would not attack because I don't know how to do a little violence. If I attack I'm afraid the only successful outcome is for my oponent is not to get up again. If the outcome cannot be decisive, then I'd rather not initiate the action.

The same is true to much of my "risk involving" behaviour - unless I am fairly certain of the positive outcome - I have a great deal of trouble initiating action. I think ADDers in general are risk avoiders - makes sense for a hunter, where one stands a fair chance of becoming prey. Because our evolutionary environments kept throwing us into high risk/high reward situations, we've learned to manage risk. In todays environment, when risk is being taken out of everything, our risk avoidance nature is seen as procrastination!!!

Ask yourselves this - What is it that I really enjoy that I would rarely procrastinate on? Now examine that activity and see if the "risk" portion of it (be it physical, emotional, financial - there are many types of risk) is something that you've learned to deal with well. Now pick something that you always procrastinate on - and see if the "risk" portion of it is something that you are fairly unsure of. If you are uncertain of the risk (what it is, or how it manifests itself), or if you feel incapable of managing the risk well - you will probably find that it is an activity you have a hard time dealing with.

Personal examples: motorcycling - I have no problems whatsoever with, even though I know that there is great risk to me physically and my family emotionally and finacially (should I be injured or die); investing - I am forever putting off (even though I am very well versed on the mechanics, and have good success in simulations - my current simulation turned $10K into $25K over the past 12 months).

I'd be interested in hearing all your perspectives on this.

I know a lot of people who feel that way, actually...

I am in the SCA, and do a lot of swordfighting, in which I prefer to be the aggressor.

But I know friends who have ADD symptoms/styles who won't get into the swordfighting because they are afraid they will hurt someone.

In a REAL fight, I have that fear. If someone punches me, as far as I am concerned, I have no trouble fighting dirty and deadly to preserve myself... got me in trouble a couple of times in high school, when a bully cornered me with the goal of humiliating me and I actually hurt him, resulting in either him escalating back and actually hurting me, or me getting into trouble as the instigator (now there's a leap in logic for ya... hehehe)

The thing is... I think you're right. If someone triggers your fight or flight instinct, you are probably going to go for the throat instinctively like a true hunter. That doesn't happen to me in SCA fighting because it is so safe and there is no grappling. But if someone bearhugs me roughly from behind... even if its a loved one surprising me... I am about 50% likely to instantly react by squaring them in the crotch or levelling them with a roundhouse punch... and I am NOT a violent guy... :( :( :(

If it was in a real fight there would be no problem. I've managed to avoid it as much as possible so far but now that I'm a green belt I need to learn. Also the thing is that I've had to work really hard to overcome my anger management problem so I feel reluctant to use any kind of physical force against anything. I'm concerned that if I learn how to attack and start doing that, that striking might become my reaction to things again, rather than thinking.

Ah, so you are holding yourself back psychologically.

That's both a good and bad thing...

Why,

After a leasurely read of your theory and in consideration of both my present and past...I would agree there is a lot of truth in that theory. I'm with Paul...if your going to fight, fight to win...to heck with being nice about it.

I've definately avoided fights after 1 or 2 extreme results in my early days. I realised that I fight to win and that my brain definately was happy to play dirty.

I definately think the risk management idea comes into it as well. Thinking about my high risk/low risk...my low risk get done with little or no effort, but my high risk..never.

Might be worth trying the theory with someone(s) trowing a high risk idea in the pot; and seeing if others can suggest ways to reduce the risk...and see if that makes a difference.

I'll certainly try it on me tomorrow. I just got to be realy truthful with myself...looks like a tough day.

JS...I'm not into martial arts, but I'm glad you started this thread...more things to think about and maybe manage a bit better.

Sleepz

Paul,

I was wondering, thinking along the risk scenario; if that you take the lead in strategy games because it is for you a low-risk option. As you say; the person that goes first tends to win; so you have worked out that that is your "low-risk" way of playing a high risk strategy game.

Just a thought.

Sleepz

It's simply a matter of logic, Sleepz... in chess, if two players copy each other's moves, white will win, because after the checkmate, black cannot respond with another checkmate...

I'll disagree for a change!!

I acknowledge the chess thing and copying..and in naughts and crosses, the player going first can always win.

All I was pointing out was that for you playing strategy games; you have developed your "low-risk" strategy and as such, playing strategy games are a low risk effor for you. It didn't really matter which strategy you had chosen, only that you had developed a low-risk way of playing.

What if someone changed the rules so you coudn't attack first? Your risk would go up; and you may (subconciensly) even decide that was too risky and decide not to play!!

Have you ever played the board game RISK? It's a very interesting game.

I've defiantely got more done in the last week by looking at my risk management strategies and implementing some risk management.

Sleepz.

Originally posted by sleepzalot


I've defiantely got more done in the last week by looking at my risk management strategies and implementing some risk management.

Sleepz.

I'm curious! EXACTLY what does this entail?

Just to add fuel to the fire: one can also procrastinate on tasks where one has learned to manage the risk that procrastination ITSELF brings. THAT however, has nothing to do with ADD... but perhaps with human nature or just plain laziness.....

I've thought about it some more, Sleepz, and I still disagree with you. The thrill of playing competitive games for me is IN the risk... reducing the risk, reduces the fun. If I am playing someone I know I can beat, it's no fun. I WANT there to be a challenge that I must work hard to overcome. That is the best outcome for any strategy game for me.

Paul, assuming the game in question was chess and your proficiency was comparable to whatever it is that you DO play, how eager would you be to play a Kasparov, for example? Knowing that it is very likely you your *** would get whooped and then some - would you still be eager to take ol Gary on in a match? How about if that match was in public?

Perhaps you enjoy the games because you have competition that is on level with you and the results, generaly stay private - i.e.: low risk.... just a thought.

Originally posted by why
Just to add fuel to the fire: one can also procrastinate on tasks where one has learned to manage the risk that procrastination ITSELF brings. THAT however, has nothing to do with ADD... but perhaps with human nature or just plain laziness.....

May I recommend a book to you?

The Myth of Laziness

By Mel Levine

I would LOVE to play Kasparov.

He would totally kick my ***. But I would improve from the experience. :D

I have the same problem with kickboxing, but not in the sense that I can't start an attack. The first step is usually ok, but if I don't get a hit in right away, I have trouble finding the next spot to target quickly enough to hit it before the other person has a chance to block. I tend to go into "Aah, too much information...where's my leg...am I close enough to kick? Would you mind not trying to punch me while I decide what to do next? Thanks. Oh dear, now you've distracted me. Where was I?" state. Problems shifting attention? Surely not :D!

And yes...reluctance has something to do with it. I (aka Miss "Oh yes, I know what your grip feels like...") got myself into trouble more than once for being unintentionally rough when I was younger. Obviously, I don't want to be injuring anyone, so I'm not too keen on trying to punch people in the face etc. Now if I was actually absolutely certain, that I have full control over the amount of power going into that punch, I could probably do that no problem at all. But I still have the same difficulties estimating just how much impact something I do will have on the target. I was the person socking people in the face with my arm in dance class because there was too much momentum in some of my movements. Which is probably also why I've wound up injuring myself several times, not realising I was overdoing it.

I can totally relate. When sparring in karate I would hit/kick someone and then stop and apologize and make sure they are ok.

I have the opposite problem I'm all offense and no defense. My actions are ruled by impulse I don't have the ability to stand back an assess a situation or consider the consequenses of my actions. I have 20\20 hindsight on what I've done wrong and what I could have changed

I have been doing judo for some time and love it. It is one of the only times in my life when I am completely focused on something, and feel true calm.

However, judo takes a long time to learn. You should basically expect it to take a year of consistent practice until you achieve a clean throw in sparring. So the feeling of not being able to get anything going at first is completely natural.

Your first year or two is basically just to get lots of practice being thrown :D. My teachers always say, though, that being thrown correctly teaches as much as doing a throw correctly twice. So think of all the great practice you are getting!

One problem with taking judo in college (I have done that as well) is that you tend to practice with all novices like you. The "natural" state of judo learning is to train with only black belts at first; that way you learn faster and more correctly.

But once you get the basics down, it's very fun!

I have recently started Hapkido.. in fact my first test is Thursday.. I really dread the testing process. When I spar and hit someone harder than I wanted to I apologize, even though I know it probably didn't hurt. Now I have no doubt that if I was in a physical conflict and it was necessary to attack, I would not think twice. it probably would bother me later. I also powerlift but have no issues with that, except focusing if I haven't taken my full dose for the day.

I used to do tae kwon do a lot. I went to the really hard fighting trainings which were held by the German Champion in Kickboxing. Me and a friend (18 + 16 at that time) alone with male black belts, who were bouncers in the local clubs....
So far to the risk taking...
No, they were even "gentle" with us, we would not have had any chance.

When I had doubts or felt insecure, I was slow and clumsy (thanks inattentive ADD, was changing from training to training).

But... once I had to defend myself seriously... I told the guy not to come closer, and tried a "backwards-kick" with my right leg. As I did it only slowly, to show him I was serious, he was able to catch my leg and I hung, my hands on my bike, my leg in his hands somehow uncomfortable....
Still, I do not know, how I did that, but I jumped then and kicked him with my left leg in the face. Not really hard, he had a "shoemark" on his forehead and his glasses were somehow "distorted".
What was most surprising: I landed, my bike still in my hands, on both feet.
He went away quickly, but I was so surprised I apologized because I'd never thought to be able to do that.:D

Still proud of that, although I can't remember how I did that. Unfortunately, I was very anxious for 3-6 months because I had really experienced there were "evil" men.

Now, I could not do that anymore, I'm helpless like a baby. But I was always determined to "fight to death". :D I'm very stubborn, even at my own cost.

In my childhood I had a bad reputation of beating up boys.... I was sometimes very aggressive.

But only, when a certain threshold was passed. Before, I did not do anything, and I am still rather autoaggressive ?????

I have done judo for a couple of years now and I have found that I am all defense and no offense. Also, when I was messing around with some friends, doing karate in the garden, I just kept blocking and blocking and not attacking which was really annoying. I also, as a couple of people have already mentioned, kept asking if they were okay, even when I knew they were. It's so annoying!

Hi Naomi
I do Muay Thai which is Thai kickboxing and I also have trouble with some of the movements and it's especially harder when I'm ADHD and NOT medicated, I have reflex problems as well as balance and coordination problems, I'm slowly working on them.

Do you have the reflex, balance and coordination issues??

Selena:) I have done judo for a couple of years now and I have found that I am all defense and no offense. Also, when I was messing around with some friends, doing karate in the garden, I just kept blocking and blocking and not attacking which was really annoying. I also, as a couple of people have already mentioned, kept asking if they were okay, even when I knew they were. It's so annoying!

I'm not medicated (or diagnosed if it comes to that, well not yet :))

I have some very very mild (possibly undiagnosable) sensory issues (including feeling uneven when someone touches me on one side etc. depending on the situation).

I am only uncoordinated when I am nervous or self concious and then I feel unbalanced and move jerkliy. (And I keep getting this thing in my legs where one of them just 'forgets' to bend when I'm walking and it gets 'stuck' on the ground momentarily).

So, not really, no, I don't think I have proper sensory/coordination/balance issues etc.

Sorry, didn't read you post properly (well, I did, but then I forgot what three things you were asking about). Not sensory, reflex :rolleyes: Sorry.

I don't know about my reflexes, sorry.

I can definitely relate to the writer of the original post. I've taken karate on and off (yet something else that I have trouble sticking with for a long time), and I pretty much always suffered from an inability to initiate any attacks in sparring. I could evade and block fairly well (for my level), but I just couldn't initiate an attack without a great deal of difficulty. I was constantly over-thinking it. The discussion on about.com of "Paralysis of the Will" seems to get at the heart of the matter.

Likewise, whenever I did hit anybody in sparring, I would apologize profusely and want to make sure I didn't hurt them.