View Full Version : Oppositional Defiant Disorder Symptoms


Andrew
03-09-03, 09:03 PM
Oppositional Defiant Disorder Symptoms

A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:

*often loses temper
*often argues with adults
*often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
*often deliberately annoys people
*often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
*is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
*is often angry and resentful
*is often spiteful or vindictive

Note: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level.

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

The behaviors do not occur exclusively during the course of a Psychotic or Mood Disorder (such as depression).

Criteria are not met for Conduct Disorder, and, if the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Criteria summarized from:
American Psychiatric Association. (1994). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition. Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.

From Mental Help Net

Bucky
10-03-03, 12:54 AM
I have a question for you Big.

Can adults have ODD? The symptoms describe both my mother and 21yr old brother to a tee, yet I can't find anything on the net relating ODD to adults. I am pretty sure my brother also has adhd.

waywardclam
10-03-03, 02:29 AM
Wow. I was DEFINITELY this as a child.

I think I have outgrown it now... but I am not positive. Perhaps I regress when fighting with my wife and son...?

Wheel1975
10-03-03, 07:10 AM
Well folks, may I say that this simply sounds like the NATURAL reaction to being chronically frustrated and misattributed and situationally mistreated.

I think most people with ADHD, especially while not being given the "unique" treament they deserve and require, would qualify as this....

It seems to me that having any ther codition would be an indicatio tht this might be a "reaction" the another mis-deagnosis, rather than a condition of its own. (primary)

waywardclam
10-03-03, 08:58 AM
You may have a point, Wheel. I always felt as a child that I was being unjustly treated because I was misunderstood and the people in charge of me were not as intelligent as I was.

Wheel1975
10-03-03, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Paul S
You may have a point, Wheel. I always felt as a child that I was being unjustly treated because I was misunderstood and the people in charge of me were not as intelligent as I was.

Well, Paul, I'd guess you were right!

Andrew
10-03-03, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Bucky
I have a question for you Big.

Can adults have ODD? The symptoms describe both my mother and 21yr old brother to a tee, yet I can't find anything on the net relating ODD to adults. I am pretty sure my brother also has adhd.

Here's a web page with Frequently Asked Questions on ODD (http://www.docspeak.com/ODD/FAQS.htm#How%20is%20ODD%20diagnosed)

To highlight one...

What happens when ODD youngsters become adults?

They can take their problems with them, causing difficulty in their relationships, marriage and work. The divorce rate, employment difficulties and the abuse of alcohol or drugs is usually higher in this population of young adults.

An excellent article on ODD can be found here. (http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic2791.htm)

According to Medline (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001537.htm), "In a significant proportion of cases, the adult condition of conduct disorder can be traced back to the presence of oppositional defiant disorder in childhood. "

Many anti-social behaviors can sound like ODD, but that doesnt mean that they actually HAVE ODD, or Conduct Disorder (http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/conduct.htm). Only a medical professional can make that diagnosis.

Sc@tterBr@in_UK
10-13-03, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Wheel1975
Well folks, may I say that this simply sounds like the NATURAL reaction to being chronically frustrated and misattributed and situationally mistreated.
I must say I do to some degree recognise the feeling of injustice and the "defiant" behaviour in myself and my mother, but from what I have read, the difference is that someone with ADD can often hurt people with words/actions because they act on impulse, but when the problem is explained to them or they realise they've hurt someone, then they genuinely regret their actions, and they are to some degree capable of learning from those mishaps.

You may still feel you were "justified" in your actions or wording of something, but you also are capable of regretting that what you said or did hurt someone. In case of ODD however, the element of regret or recognition of others' feelings isn't there, you feel like the other person "deserved" to get hurt.

Someone with ODD can often get a "kick" out of the defiance and often enjoys being hurtful to others, they do "bad" things BECAUSE they know what hurt they cause, NOT because they haven't considered the consequences of their actions (as with impulsive behaviour). There is an element of "I don't care about others getting hurt" in these actions (if not as far as "I want to kick them where it hurts).

I know the lines aren't as clear cut, but from the comparisons I've read about, there is a general difference in the intentions behind the behaviour, even if sometimes it's hard to tell the difference from the outside. (Especially if someone with ADD has trouble voicing their feelings, so apologising for upsetting someone can be difficult)

I believe for example that my ex may have ODD or be bipolar. I wanted to believe for so long that he regretted his behaviour (he only "regretted" it insofar as stopping me from leaving him was concerned), but the longer the more it became clear that he actually enjoyed hurting others, it made him feel strong and powerful and made him feel better about himself.

While I must say some of his blowups were down to low frustration/stress tolerance, there was always a certain air of intent and deliberate mischief about his actions - he actually PLANNED on how to hurt people, so there is no way any of what he did can be stamped off as "just plain impulsive" behaviour.

That willingness to hurt others for your own gain, in itself is definitely NOT part of ADD - we get frustrated easily, but that does not mean we are out to hurt others. Yes we blow more easily but we don't enjoy the hurt this causes others.


No matter what the reason, someone who beats other people up, destroys other peoples' property or deliberately says hurtful things to people, still has the choice to seek help for their problems.

It's whether or not you are willing to seek that help that distinguishes the "innocent" victim of mental disorder from the a$$hole who deliberately continues their behaviour.

Wheel1975
10-13-03, 12:11 PM
I'll take that, and I 'll raise you a nickle...

I'll take the description and deffinition as proposed.

Still, i have to wonder if the functional mechanism in ODD isn't more similar than different inside.

If an issue is left unresovled with me, I am as hot a week later as I was when i left it. Time, in and of itself, does not cool things.

I wonder if ODD folks are, really, prevented from ever gaining the "satisfaction" that allows others to "move on" from their "justified agner" or feelings that someone else "desevered" wht they got.

It wouldn't make any difference on the outside, or to how people should relate to them interpersonally, but it might explain WHERE inside the process was stopping, instead of progressing.

Sc@tterBr@in_UK
10-14-03, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Wheel1975
If an issue is left unresovled with me, I am as hot a week later as I was when i left it. Time, in and of itself, does not cool things.

I wonder if ODD folks are, really, prevented from ever gaining the "satisfaction" that allows others to "move on" from their "justified agner" or feelings that someone else "desevered" wht they got.
That's a very interesting point there, I've never really looked at it from that angle! Personally, once I get stuck in something I can often argue a point to death and even when a thread (on the net) gets closed, I'll still protest and tell people I'm unhappy the discussion got ended so "abruptly". (Even though with hindsight, it's quite obvious the subject has been discussed to death and I had been repeating myself over and over again!)

However, once I take a step back (either out of my own choice because I tend to get bored of it eventually, or being forced to, if the discussion is shut) I am able to move on, and realise where I should have stopped (because I was repeating myself), and I definitely regret it if any of what I said in the course of the discussion/fight hurt someone else.

It does make sense though, that not being able to take that step backwards (even after a long time), not being able to move on (even if its just out of boredom) from these feelings, would make someone very negative indeed, and spiteful, forever holding a grudge against the world :(

The funny thing is that, in spite of the fact that in most arguments I passionately get involved in the only reason to "let go" for me is because I get bored with it and move on to something more interesting, the fact that I easily get frustrated and can be extremely stubborn when I believe to be in the right, I still am very quick to forgive & forget, don't tend to hold grudges, and overall I am very fearful of confrontation, and tend to be more of a (clumsy and a bit useless but still!) mediator than an instigator.

justcause
05-28-06, 09:15 PM
This is a garbage diagnosis. The willingness to hurt others for your own personal gain describes many business and personal situations. It is so amorphous that 30% of the population could be diagnosed with this disorder. They can show using a PET scan the hypoarousal of ADD. And their is sufficient data to believe that sociopaths have frontal lobe disfunction. But can they show the differances between how ODD and conduct disorder manifest themselves using a PET scan, EEG or MRI?

scuro
06-09-06, 09:34 PM
This is a garbage diagnosis. The willingness to hurt others for your own personal gain describes many business and personal situations. It is so amorphous that 30% of the population could be diagnosed with this disorder. They can show using a PET scan the hypoarousal of ADD. And their is sufficient data to believe that sociopaths have frontal lobe disfunction. But can they show the differances between how ODD and conduct disorder manifest themselves using a PET scan, EEG or MRI?

Yes I believe they can.

..and don't worry, it's not catchable.

sss180b
08-10-06, 09:36 PM
Most people can read the DSM and find a "diagnosis" for everyone they know. The important thing to remember about diagnosing ODD is that it is classified as a "childhood disorder" and thus symptoms must be present during childhood. In order to properly diagnose this disorder, information is gathered relating to the child's behavior in various settings (ie, at home, school etc) and compared to behavior of "normal" children. The symptoms must also have been present for at least six months prior to diagnosis, and must cause significant impairment in the child's daily life.

Nova
08-10-06, 10:35 PM
Most people can read the DSM and find a "diagnosis" for everyone they know. The important thing to remember about diagnosing ODD is that it is classified as a "childhood disorder" and thus symptoms must be present during childhood. In order to properly diagnose this disorder, information is gathered relating to the child's behavior in various settings (ie, at home, school etc) and compared to behavior of "normal" children. The symptoms must also have been present for at least six months prior to diagnosis, and must cause significant impairment in the child's daily life.



Thank you, sss180b, for curbing the tendency, for most to 'run' with the DSM (whatever version) as being the 'almighty truth'.


Here's how I've *seen* it, folks..
Some individuals actually do invoke 'chances to change', if given, to react differently, as adults.

Nothing, and especially 'no one' is 'set in stone'.
Remember that.

dormammau2008
08-11-06, 08:27 AM
must have odd then cos i meet all the above lol being your self is impornted i think ....dorm

mrs A
10-20-06, 06:58 PM
So does these symptoms need to be in all settings (school, home, social)? What if they are just at home?

shay_brandy
09-20-07, 03:20 PM
for a while now adn from what i gather it needs to pretty much be an all the time uncontrollable disorder, but i have noticed because ODD is not treated with meds, its treated with parental education mainly....they can behave better with certain ppl, usually a parent or 1 parent and not the other because the parent to take the disciplining seriously and doesnt given in usually gets more respect from teh child.

Kiwiana
01-02-08, 12:28 PM
Actually this disorder should not be under conduct disorder, it should have it's own subject heading. Conduct disorder is more serious usually presents or children are labelled this when their ODD hasn't been managed parents, by schools and other authorative figures who fling up their hands in powerlessness and declare them "CD".

So, how about moving it out of here. My first words on this forum.

I have a stepson who is ODD and was diagnosed at age seven. We use the 1-2-3-Magic program and it has worked very well in this family. Before that, we used the Positive Discipline for Pre-Schoolers, which had great advice on time-outs and how to do them among other things.

I have children aged 31, 27, 24 and then I moved in with my stepson and his father and twin sister. That's when I decided he wasn't your average kid at age 31/2 years. So, I went out and put the positive discipline book and spent time teaching this kid who was in charge and what was acceptable behavior and that time-outs started when he was quiet etc.

He is now 12 and our biggest issues are the schools and their attitudes toward his IEP and what they are willing to incorporate into his daily classroom challenges. When they are good, he is good enough.

edge of reason
01-31-08, 08:34 PM
Yes, ODD can go from childhood to adulthood, and IS genetic. i know because i have ADHD, ODD, and IED. Both of my sons do also. As if just having one wasn't bad enough.

lindsayok
02-18-08, 12:29 AM
My son who is 11 is ADHD and ODD. We spent 3 yrs in counseling, this did a world of good for him. He had a sever impulse disorder when he was younger. It didn't matter what I said to him I was always wrong and he was right. If I told him to do something he would do just the opposite just to spite me. So I started using Love and Logic with him. You can do this or this. It worked wonders. Giving him the choice to do the right thing or the wrong and suffer the consequences put him in charge and stopped the fighting. Now I can take him with me anywhere and he is better behaved than his 9 yr-old sister. I can ask him to do anything to help and I rarely get arguments. Another thing I did is put his dad and I on the same page. My husband originally did not want him on meds and would often let him have his way. One day I said either you let me deal with this my way or you deal with him from now on and deal with the schools, and when he get kicked out of school you stay home with him and you teach him so that he can get a job and not have to fight all the time. His dad quickly got on board and we have done great. He is bringing home bs and cs in school. Is he perfect no but what kid is? With out the diagnosis from his Dr. I couldn't have gotten him the help he needed or made the schools listen to me. As a teacher that was very frustrating, knowing what to do to fix the problem but with out a Dr. saying "He has ODD" I couldn't get the schools to listen to me.

busygoddess
09-17-08, 02:27 AM
My daughter has ODD, so I've done some research on it. Basically (from what I've read), a diagnosis of ODD can lead to a diagnosis of Conduct Disorder, which can lead to a diagnosis of Anitsocial Personality Disorder (Sociopath) as an adult. This is, of course, if something is not done about it as soon as possible. There is no medication for any of these conditions & no one guaranteed treatment, but therapy is neccesary if any progress is to made.
I know many people who think that a child diagnosed with ODD simply isn't disciplined by their parents. This is simply not true. It can, however, be caused by environmental factors (such as abuse). That's actually what caused my daughter's ODD (she was abused by her biological father).

SuzzanneX
09-17-08, 03:40 AM
..that's what they're calling it now? ...ha ha ha!

reesah
09-17-08, 04:59 AM
Here's a web page with Frequently Asked Questions on ODD (http://www.docspeak.com/ODD/FAQS.htm#How%20is%20ODD%20diagnosed)

To highlight one...

What happens when ODD youngsters become adults?

They can take their problems with them, causing difficulty in their relationships, marriage and work. The divorce rate, employment difficulties and the abuse of alcohol or drugs is usually higher in this population of young adults.

An excellent article on ODD can be found here. (http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic2791.htm)

According to Medline (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001537.htm), "In a significant proportion of cases, the adult condition of conduct disorder can be traced back to the presence of oppositional defiant disorder in childhood. "

Many anti-social behaviors can sound like ODD, but that doesnt mean that they actually HAVE ODD, or Conduct Disorder (http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/conduct.htm). Only a medical professional can make that diagnosis.


^this. good links there. I had something similar to this when I was a kid. It's easy to misinterpret someone's motivations, by ascribing your own feelings to them, apparently. It's not that someone "deserved" to be harmed, but that harming them was for some reason beneficial to you, that makes for the problem.

Grudges are not the reason. Boredom, cruelty for kicks, or some more tangible reward are the reason. The other person's feelings don't enter into the equation and neither does "revenge", really.


those links and references arer really interesting, I'm interested in this thread. I wasn't helped much as a kid so it is good to see some parents that care and want to help their kid out with these problems (rather than just punishing and making no attempt to understand what's going on)

Thomas_Swift
04-02-09, 01:33 PM
This is what I put together from self experiance. Hope it helps.

Data looking at adults and children with ADD & Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

Definition

Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), or social aggression, is
defined as a pattern of disobedient, negativistic, and provocative opposition to authority figures. More commonly seen in boys than girls, ODD can be diagnosed in children as young as 3 years of age.


Symptoms

The symptoms of ODD in children may include:
Temper tantrums
Continuous arguing
Defiance of rules
Doing the opposite of others or suggestions
Angry and resentful affect
Spiteful and vindictive behavior
Frequent use of obscene language


The symptoms of ODD in adults may include:
Frequent use of obscene language
Defiance of rules, regulations or laws
Doing the opposite of others or suggestions
Angry and resentful affect
Spiteful and vindictive behavior
Attends church or self help group being devious afterwards
Other self destructive behavior


Compiled from the internet & edited by Thomas A. Swift

Thomas_Swift
04-02-09, 02:31 PM
Here is some possible insight from remembering what it was like when I was in school and exhibiting ODD behavior. A lot of my behavior I still can not explain however a large chunk of it I have managed to make some sense of. Because of my slowed development because of my ADHD chemical imbalance I was very impatient. So was the school and my parents. The special education teachers quickly disseminated my behavior as associated with being hyperactive. I till today find it very hard to sit down and read a regular book and I am now ADD. I was also incapable of absorbing the level of information that was being taught. I their for became very quickly board sitting their staring at a book which I had absolutely no interest in reading. Next thing I started doing was acting out in the classroom for self entertainment. Which that opened up a whole other hornets nest of not only being ridiculed by the school personnel but left me being singled out by other students as a weak link. I don't know that their was anyone who was to blame including myself. People with ADD & ADHD generally are also effected by some type of mental dysfunction such as dyslexia, dyscalculia or retardation due to their mental chemical imbalance. Fortunately many of us get to later outgrow these conditions. Sometimes like my self I will never have proper right brained functionality. Its the frustration with being mentally impaired and feelings of inadequacy with the rest of the world that leads to the rest of the ODD symptoms and usually a diagnosis of some kind of depression. Its really difficult to love society and your fellow man, let alone your self when society has set up road blocks at every turn for the mentally challenged person. You can call it ODD or simply rebellion. Rebellion against a world unfit for the mentally challenged individual. My best advice to all parents, teachers, and my fellow ADD'ers is work together to bring down the road blocks and take time to properly identify them. Sometimes the simplest solution is the actual answer. In other words if your not advancing back off give your self/student time to grow and have a go at it when your/they are ready. :confused:

Beating a young horse will never get you anywhere ! :mad:

Thomas_Swift
04-02-09, 03:08 PM
My son who is 11 is ADHD and ODD. We spent 3 yrs in counseling, this did a world of good for him. He had a sever impulse disorder when he was younger. It didn't matter what I said to him I was always wrong and he was right. If I told him to do something he would do just the opposite just to spite me. So I started using Love and Logic with him. You can do this or this. It worked wonders. Giving him the choice to do the right thing or the wrong and suffer the consequences put him in charge and stopped the fighting.

;) A++
The mentally challanged person will know way before anyone else if and when they are ready. Rather redirect your attentions to what they are ready for. You will be pleasently suprised to find out that learning is developmental process. The more a person learns in one area usualy will lead to advancing in other areas. As anyone with a physical or mental impairment changes or controls need to be put into place to create a controlled atmosphere that will allow conditions feesable to function in.

ODLS1
04-02-09, 10:44 PM
Haha, a few years ago my dad insisted I had this, simply because he would tell me to do a chore like 5 times rapid-fire in a minute, and if it I wasn't doing it in a minute I was defying him and everything. He was like "I've told you 5 times to do it and you havn't!" and I was like "Yea, 5 times in 60 seconds, give me a minute." I'll admit I didn't jump at his requests, but I think he made it worse by telling me so many times in such short amount of time. When people do that, it makes me not want to do whatever it is.

Other than that, I showed no signs really. When I was younger I lost my temper a lot, but I was a nice shy kid overall.

Once again my "omniscient" dad (or so he thought) was wrong. That's all, carry on.

mctavish23
04-05-09, 10:32 PM
There's empirical support for ADHD contributing to and likely causing ODD.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

ADHDKylee
04-07-09, 05:02 PM
I have ADHD, but the first time I saw my doctor I was diagnosed with ODD. I started on Concerta, and as the ADHD got better so did the ODD. In the next few appointments, I lost my label of ODD. As the hyperactivity and impulsivity were treated, my ODD symptoms slowly went away because I wasn't impulsively talking back, trying to seek revenge, arguing, doing the opposite of what I was told just for fun, or hyperactively on purpose trying to annoy people. My doctor told me that ODD is curable, which I believe, because I lost my label almost as quickly as I got it. As far as I know I am no longer diagnosed with ODD...

7yrsapart
11-20-09, 09:25 AM
Soooo, dummy this down for me. My son shows signs of ODD and have just began counseling for him with anger problems and attitude problems. Does medicine help with ODD or is it more of a parenting issue that I need to do? I am a single mom and his dad shows no signs of helping. Our son has a terrible behavior problem at school and has been in In School Suspension several times this year. I'm stern...I do not reward bad behavior, ie, throwing desks, shoes, stomping feet when he is told no.

Makeit1
11-22-09, 11:27 PM
I'm suspended from school for the fifth time this year, and im off for a week cause I was arguing with the head master and such, suspended for refusing to write my name when I did ? haha It would seem I have this but when I argue with teachers or school officials its cause I feel like their wrong and im right. My doctor just said something about this ODD, defiant disorder or something.

mildadhd
11-22-09, 11:46 PM
When a doctor tells the patient it is ok to use cannabis for pain, then the patient uses less cannabis (than prior use) because it isn't forbiden.

Legault
11-25-09, 06:22 AM
Reading this thread I must say that I very likely have this. It is just...really fun for me to be an 'agent of chaos', basically I tend to oppose certain things just for the sake of opposing them, I can also be quite the social engineer and have caused problems for myself and others by doing so. If this is a conduct disorder then I have it...it's controllable, no doubt, but sometimes I don't realize that I'm doing or saying something totally ignorant - I just don't care enough to measure absolutely everything I do, like most people with problems like this I would simply adopt a fitting philosophical/psychological outlook in an attempt to try and warrant such behavior. There is a sort of fierce satisfaction I get out of battling and 'winning' and some part of me honestly finds this disturbing, while my other 'side' does present itself and it absolutely relishes it's ability to cause havoc. If I didn't have any morals at all I would be a serious liability to society.

swiper
02-14-10, 06:04 PM
Hi,Im Sarah (just joined this site today) and my son has got ODD,ADHD and Aspergust (sp), we finally got the diagnoses in Sept 09, Connor has been given Medication and started taking them on New years eve but we are trying to get the dosage right as its really affecting his sleeping.

Connor has been known to be defiant at school than at home and has had detention a few times due to him totally refusung to do any work. Ive got good support from his school and they know how to handle his little ways.

Thomas_Swift
02-15-10, 04:59 PM
Soooo, dummy this down for me. My son shows signs of ODD and have just began counseling for him with anger problems and attitude problems. Does medicine help with ODD or is it more of a parenting issue that I need to do? I am a single mom and his dad shows no signs of helping. Our son has a terrible behavior problem at school and has been in In School Suspension several times this year. I'm stern...I do not reward bad behavior, ie, throwing desks, shoes, stomping feet when he is told no.

Seems more like to me eather he is not ready for the ciriculem or else he is highly board with it, and their for acting out. I think it would be very important for you to identify which problem he is encountering so it can be delt with apropriatly. If he is not absorbing the ciriculem you may concider home schooling at lower levels untill his brain has had a few years to further develope. You cant amagin how hatefull people look when they are demanding you do somthing your brain is just not capable of deeling with. I was doing exactly the same crap. I wound upbeing passed out of every grade of elimentry school with all failing F's. I simply couldnt concentrate on work that I wasnt absorbing. I hated teachers, my parents and above all myself because it was after all me that wasnt working right. So I basicly started hating the whole world and figured they all could go blank their selves. After that I didnt care who I screwed with, after all nobody liked me anyways. After this point ODD behavior was all I had left. It was entertaining to give back all this agravation everyone else seemed to want to dump in my lap. I still till today feel much the same way at times.

Deanne65
03-26-10, 01:09 PM
If you introduce poisons into your child's body then perhaps you have taken the moral low ground. As with many other putative childhood disorders, there is the heavy reliance on behavioral rating scales which, in short, is a means of measuring the displeasure of the "behavior raters". Personal feelings aside, I can empathize with your perceived dilemma, but not the "therapeutic" outcome! After any medical issues have been ruled out as the cause of your child's disruptive behavior (communication), you will certainly have to confront the morally implicative nature of drugging your child into conformity and docility! It is surprising what children will tell you, if you truly listen with your heart!

weareacc
03-26-10, 01:54 PM
I have ODD and, in my case, it went on to manifest as a personality disorder. It's not easy admitting that you get pleasure from harming others, to them or yourself.

EYEFORGOT
03-26-10, 01:54 PM
Moderator Note:
*Please be respectful to one another. People come from all different backgrounds and many have different ideas and views on different issues.


Just a reminder from our ettiquette guidelines. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15843)
A parent is not necessarily taking the "moral low ground" for choosing to handle their child's diagnosis with medication. It is a legitimate option, and we encourage education on this forum on both sides of the issue, if desired. While there are very strong opinions for or against medication, it is important to remember that parents are just trying to do the best they can. It is not a character flaw to choose one over the other. To put a legitimate question on the defensive like this is an injustice to education and the persuit of understanding and knowledge. We can share our concerns/opinions without assuming the worst about the parent/guardian.

Deanne65
03-26-10, 02:30 PM
I have ODD and, in my case, it went on to manifest as a personality disorder. It's not easy admitting that you get pleasure from harming others, to them or yourself.

Well, certainly as the normative nature of psych labels would have it, you certainly did manifest problems later on in life. However, your life took you on a different path, but the same psychiatric scrutiny followed along this trajectory. So you continued to be a problem for others, through your words and deeds. How is one to measure such ameliorative affects of "therapy", when there are no standards to start with? Of course, those who have committed themselves to the medico-scientific "validity" of medicalizing the moral might appear less equivocal of such respective "therapeutic" aims and outcomes. If one medicalizes one's problems in living (the moral and the social), then one has certainly cracked more than just a few eggs to make his omelette.

weareacc
03-26-10, 02:52 PM
i actually have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Why do you have such an inability to clearly make a point? You need to work on that.

Dizfriz
03-26-10, 03:31 PM
If you introduce poisons into your child's body then perhaps you have taken the moral low ground I am going to have to take exception to this. First can you identify the poisons involved and back up that description? This is an extremely strong and judgmental statement and I am really curious how you would support it.

After any medical issues have been ruled out as the cause of your child's disruptive behavior (communication), you will certainly have to confront the morally implicative nature of drugging your child into conformity and docility! "Drugging your child into comformity and docility!". Again very strong and judgmental. I would be quite interested in how you would back this statement up.

Dizfriz

Deanne65
03-26-10, 05:54 PM
Moderator Note:


Just a reminder from our ettiquette guidelines. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15843)
A parent is not necessarily taking the "moral low ground" for choosing to handle their child's diagnosis with medication. It is a legitimate option, and we encourage education on this forum on both sides of the issue, if desired. While there are very strong opinions for or against medication, it is important to remember that parents are just trying to do the best they can. It is not a character flaw to choose one over the other. To put a legitimate question on the defensive like this is an injustice to education and the persuit of understanding and knowledge. We can share our concerns/opinions without assuming the worst about the parent/guardian.



{edited by Moderator; do not discuss Moderator actions on public forum. Put them in a PM} The message might have been better served in the passive voice; and there would have been no misconstruels. What possible level of privileged knowledge and expertise does the mental health worker assume in delivering what is best for the child's self interest (I am sure that this will be some collaborative effort, by therapeutic standards)? What about the mother's assuming a little moral agency for her relationship? What of self-determination, for herself and her child's needs? I am not quite sure where credulity and moral backsliding are so perilously close, one to the other.
Is there some gold standard to be sought after? The first moral misstep is in automatically coming to a conclusion that our secular "soul doctors" are the moral arbiters!

Deanne65
03-26-10, 06:42 PM
First off, an apology is in order to the parent who is obviously troubled and concerned for her child. The message intended might have been better served, had the passive voice been used. The parent obviously has herself in for a penny in for a pound, with the child already having been "diagnosed" with an conduct "disorder". Again, there is a disservice being paid to medicine, when mental health professionals refuse to eschew those pseudo-medical blandishments, aimed at shielding the practitioner, and likewise, serving as an excuse for the many therapeutic misadventures; a occupational hazard, if you will.
I suppose there might be a co-morbid disorder, or two, which might be all the better to indeed coercively poison the child. Again, the child causes considerable displeasure, and what is then the collective response? This treatment for the child's disorder will perforce require excuses and their coercions. The very notion that we are dealing with a medical issue, is as fanciful as thinking that that power doesn't have anything to do with bending and shaping the wayward child. This is typical of the left-leaning, statist approach to enlarging the scope of medical authority; it is no wonder that I have been the subject of many epithets concerning my state of mind; how ironic, deploying such base rhetoric, as that of the "disease" of mental illness as the slur!

weareacc
03-26-10, 06:55 PM
I hereby take the opportunity to remind everybody of the "ignore list" function available on this forum... It is there to be used.

meadd823
03-27-10, 06:01 AM
I have received an infraction because I told a parent-who voluntarily chose to share her story-that she might perhaps be taking the moral low ground in addressing a child's "defiant" personality in such amoral terms, as in, "therapeutizing" the problem.

A parent came here for support not to be judged . . .

No one came here for moral guidance,no one wants moral guidance

I know for a fact no one came here to be told by a stranger their problems do not exist -

Your post are less than supportive but luckily by the time most are done reading what you write well let just say

Your moralizing is lobotomizing . . . . . . . really!!!

doiadhd
04-09-10, 07:15 PM
I'm suspended from school for the fifth time this year, and im off for a week cause I was arguing with the head master and such, suspended for refusing to write my name when I did ? haha It would seem I have this but when I argue with teachers or school officials its cause I feel like their wrong and im right. My doctor just said something about this ODD, defiant disorder or something.

I have'nt been diagnosed with this but I had the exact same thing you are going through......it does'nt matter now,but it will,when you think back like I did.

Only the good boys get presents and that works after you have left,you can get the best jobs,more money or worst jobs,less money.

For me when I was at school at 15 and getting suspendid for the 6th time,I thought to myself 'what is going on here!'. I am right,I'm still right now,that does'nt matter if you can't explain your actions.

I saw everyone as equal,and would address them as them me....fairs fair,but it just does'nt work like that.

I wish I could do it again,I can remember every situation and scenario which led to me getting suspended,I could'nt believe that no one else would get into half as much trouble.

Try writing a letter to explain the situation in it's true form from your point of view,if I were to have done that a few times back then,they may have understood the situations better.

Wish you luck with the....teachers.

michinyuja
04-14-10, 05:59 AM
Smart people realize that stupid people telling them to do stupid things is wrong.

So they get mad, sad, or bad.

They tell us not to smoke cigarettes. Then it's okay after 18.
They tell us not to drink. Then, all of a sudden, you go to college and your PARENTS are paying for the dorm's keg parties every single weekend!
They tell us not to have sex. Then you realize that everybody is doing it.
They tell us not to talk back or fight back. The next thing you know, your money's gone and you can't get it back.


Personally, I think ADHD and OCD people are the opposite ends of the brilliant spectrum.

OCD (nerd-type) people get to slide under the radar. They don't get into trouble. They're praised and patted on the head like good little lapdogs. But they also become corporate slaves, chained to desks and sacrificing family, relationships, and friends to please their masters.

ADHD people get called dysfunctional, punished, threatened, imprisoned, beaten, and broken. Their talents go unrecognized and undeveloped. Their needs go unmet. Their pain is ignored.

I think the first step in breaking the cycle is by refusing to use labels like this one.
Defiance and opposition...hmm...

when are they okay?


Do you think it's possible that some Powers That Be don't want people defying or opposing EVER...?

brillosa
05-04-10, 10:32 AM
I don't know that much about ODD, but as a teacher(with ADHD), I think I can at least say that there is a very big difference between simply becoming defiant as a result of frustration and misunderstanding than acting out as a result of an actual conduct disorder. The last few diagnostic criteria are really important to consider here.

*often deliberately annoys people
*often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
*is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
*is often angry and resentful
*is often spiteful or vindictive


Simply arguing with adults and not backing down, that is not ODD, from my understanding. If so, I would also have suffered from that as a child. Like many other posters here, I thought very differently from almost everyone else around me as a child. Despite my high IQ, GPA, and test scores, it was very difficult to communicate with people--ESPECIALLY adults. It led me to not only become very frustrated with them, but to begin to believe that--because I was able to understand their thinking, yet they were unable to understand mine--I was much more intelligent.

Now, I'm not sure that's necessarily the case (not quite so confident in my own superiority, haha). But my experiences have definitely shaped the way I treat my students. I refer to them by their last name, I choose not to have a desk and rather sit at the tables with them (I'm 23, and I teach middle school, so we are actually about the same size). We decide the rules and consequences as a group, and have community meetings to talk about frustrations and misunderstandings. I'm not saying everything's perfect in my classroom (far from it), but I am sure that my students almost never feel disrespected or devalued by me, and they know that I do NOT believe that anyone deserves additional respect simply because they are older. That's ageism. As their teacher, they respect me because I've come to gain their trust as they have gotten to know me and realized that I do have their best interest in mind, always. I listen to them, so they listen to me.

Anyway, I kind of went off on a tangent there, but I would strongly caution students and parents against allowing themselves or their children to be hastily labeled by a conduct disorder that is relatively new and (like ADD/ADHD) does not have strict diagnostic criteria. While it is important for a student to receive services if he/she needs them, there is definitely a stigma and an unfortunate lowering of expectations that inevitably follows in most classrooms. It's not right, but it's how it is.

itsanADHDthing
11-15-10, 06:19 PM
sounds like me when i was in lots of trouble when i had depression...

JosefMiller
12-09-10, 02:11 AM
Anyway, I kind of went off on a tangent there, but I would strongly caution students and parents against allowing themselves or their children to be hastily labeled by a conduct disorder that is relatively new and (like ADD/ADHD) does not have strict diagnostic criteria. While it is important for a student to receive services if he/she needs them, there is definitely a stigma and an unfortunate lowering of expectations that inevitably follows in most classrooms. It's not right, but it's how it is.

cathlane
03-05-12, 08:07 AM
my 13 yr old son had ODD...... it seems people may be suggesting that it dosen't exist?..or perhaps taking the condition out of context?
my son will physically do things right in front of your eyes then turn round and say it wasn't me i didn't do it or it wasn't my fault! You can be having a converstaion with other adults and he will just bulldoze his way in and tell you no your wrong!! it's this this and this...and be quite aggressive with it too!! a constant "i am right!!" if something dosen't work straight away that second he will swear scream and shout instantly...i don't want it now or this is broken it's useless...etc etc, he cannot follow 1 simple instruction and is now in a special school because mainstream was a nightmare (obv with all the rules) even things he wants to do if HE asks to go somewhere as soon as you say yeah ok lets go he turns around and revokes.... ODD DOES EXIST i live with it everyday and it's a nightmare!!

eeilyk
03-05-12, 08:25 AM
I believe i have ODD but i haven't brought it up with my doctor because i don't know if there's much they can do about it.

Flory
04-01-12, 12:13 AM
yeah i think this goes with the territory when you have ADHD :( i think the only thing that really would help is CBT or something like that but its so hard to get hold of ! xx

fracturedstory
04-27-12, 06:37 AM
my 13 yr old son had ODD...... it seems people may be suggesting that it dosen't exist?..or perhaps taking the condition out of context?
my son will physically do things right in front of your eyes then turn round and say it wasn't me i didn't do it or it wasn't my fault! You can be having a converstaion with other adults and he will just bulldoze his way in and tell you no your wrong!! it's this this and this...and be quite aggressive with it too!! a constant "i am right!!" if something dosen't work straight away that second he will swear scream and shout instantly...i don't want it now or this is broken it's useless...etc etc, he cannot follow 1 simple instruction and is now in a special school because mainstream was a nightmare (obv with all the rules) even things he wants to do if HE asks to go somewhere as soon as you say yeah ok lets go he turns around and revokes.... ODD DOES EXIST i live with it everyday and it's a nightmare!!
I think a lot of people here have ODD. It's one of those disorders people that have it would be in instant denial about. There's a similar sub form of autism called PDA and I tore the diagnostic criteria apart, abused the people for writing it...because it sounded like my childhood. It's avoidance more than opposition.
I argue a lot and always want to be the opposite, but it's not as severe as your sons. But I think I have some form of ODD and it's definitely not out of frustration. I think it's a way to stimulate my brain. I'm not even sure if I'm agreeing with you or disagreeing with everyone else. I always need to choose a side.

pechemignonne
04-27-12, 10:28 AM
I think a lot of people here have ODD. It's one of those disorders people that have it would be in instant denial about. There's a similar sub form of autism called PDA and I tore the diagnostic criteria apart, abused the people for writing it...because it sounded like my childhood. It's avoidance more than opposition.
I argue a lot and always want to be the opposite, but it's not as severe as your sons. But I think I have some form of ODD and it's definitely not out of frustration. I think it's a way to stimulate my brain. I'm not even sure if I'm agreeing with you or disagreeing with everyone else. I always need to choose a side.
I think the problem is that people hear ODD and the symptoms, and think "Well everybody is like that sometimes."

The same way that a lot of people hear the symptoms of ADHD and think "Well everybody is like that sometimes."

Or even GAD or social anxiety people say "Well that's just shyness..."

I think the problem that many people have is understanding the difference between a symptom, which by itself might not be a symptom at all but just a personality quirk or a reaction to a situation, and a disorder.

When someone has ODD, it isn't just that they are oppositional and defiant. It's that their oppositional and defiant behavior is severe enough and pervasive enough and impairing enough that it goes beyond a situational problem. It is a disorder in and of itself.

Rebelyell
04-27-12, 11:53 AM
Holy poop on a stick this is me too a t!

RippinMyHairOut
10-04-12, 10:02 PM
From what I learned from professionals, typically ODD should usually go away around age 8. Most times if one has ODD, they will have something else such as ADHD or ADD. If they do not outgrow ODD around this age, it could very well be with a person into their adulthood, which I thought is more classified as Conduct Disorder. I'm clearly no expert, but I raised my daughter with ODD and ADHD and she actually outgrew both.

Please correct me if I am wrong anyone. I'm just basing this off of my daughter's therapist and my niece's therapist years after (which is more current).

TheNarrator
01-28-13, 05:11 PM
I'm pretty sure this is what undiagnosed ADHD with ODD looks like. My first 21 years of life. The next 20 haven't been a cakewalk either. I'm only sharing this personal information so that people will realize how badly they can screw up your life if they remain undiagnosed. Not one time did anyone ever think to have me tested or checked out!

I am actually going tomorrow to get my diagnosis.

Throughout school – procrastination on homework and assignments plagued me. Tardiness, outbursts, constant daydreaming, fights with other students, arguments with teachers and principals. Did well with tests usually, but terrible with homework and got lost in math and English as it got more complicated and I didn't keep up with homework. Pretty much winged my way through school. Had many problems with dad and brother ( I had an uncanny knack for pushing their buttons and seem to have enjoyed either being yelled at, punished, hit, or beaten up)

I really did seem to enjoy being hit/beaten up, it was almost comforting. I know that sounds crazy but that was how I felt. I never considered myself to have lost a fight, because I never stopped or gave them the satisfaction, no matter how bloodied or bruised I would keep on coming or cussing them until they gave up or I won! I know weird! The funny thing is I kind of had a reputation for being easy going and laid back .

Kindergarten – Got in my first school fist fight and went to the office. I know there were more but I can't remember until about 3<SUP>rd</SUP> grade.
3<SUP>rd</SUP> grade – started having multiple problems with teacher, class clowning, and talking, and generally acting up. I believe that is when I really started fighting with other kids too (a lot).
4<SUP>th</SUP> grade – My teacher Mrs. Coffee and I had a war of will the entire year. Every day after lunch I would push her over the edge and I would spend the rest of the day sitting in the principals office.
5<SUP>th</SUP> grade – new town, new school, fresh start: New war with new teacher, I pushed her buttons so badly she would throw me out of the classroom! I spent every special event and holiday party in the library or office. Had many fights with peers. Grades began to slip (found out later that homeroom teacher quit teaching after that year and returned to her home state. Coincidence?
6<SUP>th</SUP> -8<SUP>th</SUP> grade – Had the most licks (paddling) of any kid (and probably all kids in the school combined), constant detentions, and in school suspension. Mostly for class clown, or pushing teachers buttons. Had too many fights to count. Had discipline trouble with coaches too, but much less. Last day of school my principal cussed me out and told me exactly what he thought of me. I don't blame him ;) he was very frustrated.
9<SUP>th</SUP> - 11<SUP>th</SUP> grade, same story, total disorganization, always late, had to borrow a pen and paper in every class. Many more fights and discipline problems. Had to take summer school before senior year because of grades. Lots of tickets, and trouble with the law.
12<SUP>th</SUP> grade – continued bad conduct, fights, had driving privileges revoked for doing burnouts and sneaking out of class. Then got into serious trouble and received 30 days on campus suspension. Dropped out, got my GED and went to Junior college (the last semester of my senior year, my friends were still in high school.)
Junior college – late to every class, missed 1/3 of classes, slept during classes. Changed major twice and got on academic suspension.


Joined the Army – During Desert Storm (qualified for any position in the Army – due to high test scores) and chose Infantry, because I wanted to get into the ****! Peace time didn't work out too well for me. Discipline problems continued, fights continued, had several article 15's which contributed to my early exit. I guess you could say I have some authority issues!

And that's just the first 21 years! Moral of the story- don't let your kid go through all this - get them checked out! On a good note: I have some awesome stories to tell people. Someday I might write a book. If I can get on some meds that work ;)

nHAVOKz
01-31-13, 11:04 PM
Someday I might write a book. If I can get on some meds that work ;)

I'd love to read it, when it's done.