Recently this thread; http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2219&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 was closed, partly in response to how heated the discussion got. My Mea Culpa here- I do get too emotional sometimes when I'm passionate about a subject, which is something I walk a fine line with, and work every day on doing better on.

I understand that we need to not create such rancor on this board that people leave because it makes them uncomfortable, and I would just like to say that I feel that is the most important thing about this board, that it helps people, and so I want us to figure out how to have frank, open discussions without driving people away, but at the same time, feel there needs to be the freedom to speak your mind in order for there to be useful discussion.

Which brings me to the point of this thread; what's over the line? I'd like for us to have a frank, blunt dissection of the aforementioned closed thread and have others give their opinion of what's over the line.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings, I'm pretty tough, and besides, I know if you didn't care, you wouldn't spend the time to respond. So I'll be viewing any criticism in that light- that it's only a good friend who will tell you the truth. Like a friend who I didn't know all that well in high school at the time who reluctantly and gently suggested that I should trim my nose hairs, and who is among my best friends to this day. I could go on and make a point about Johnny Depp's comments here, but let's try to stay on topic... :p

Hopefully we will all learn from this thread several things- what makes people uncomfortable so we can avoid that, what things are over the line, different ways to communicate what we're trying to say without crossing that line that we would never have thought of ourselves, etc.

Have fun!

Well. I knew that some people would feel i was being politically incorrect to resurect the term "minimal brain damage."

I think it has value, but here is not the place to identify what.

I also "wondered out loud", speculated on the private motivations of others, of a group i created with some broad labeling.

(so far i've counted 3 "process" errors on my part. Undiplomatic. How many have i already missed?)

I could have introduced the term in greater context, and more gently, except for the fact that i was steamed by barriers before me i keep tripping over.

I could have "inquired" about others motivations instead of airing my ruminations.

That might have been a start. What do you think?

Well okay I'll go...In the six and a half or so months I've been here, I have never seen this heated of a discussion. So I will say that this extensive heat on threads rarely happens, if ever....

I have seen individuals get heated amongst each other, but not entire threads....I must admit I was quite floored....I got several PM's from several people, both involved and unvolved in the discussions, reacting in all kinds of ways. That was fine.

I don't know what's over the line, what is acceptable, etc. But I DO know this: I think what might help is if the thread STARTER writes the rules of the thread.....The starter should state what is acceptable and not acceptable....After all HE/SHE started the thread and so HE/SHE should be able to determine where they would like it to go......With each thread started lines and boundaries should be drawn up and everyone participating in the thread agreees to cooperate....


P.S. Here's a favorite slogan I've heard in many "rooms" I've sat in: "Say what you mean, mean what you say -- but don't be mean".

I want to chime in and say that I actually thought most of the people involved handled themselves quite well. Aforceforgood and Wheel1975 have both sent me PMs which were not only polite, but very concerned that their actions had offended or hurt me... they hadn't, I was arguing for the principle and for others I thought might be offended or hurt, but still, it was a gesture I respect.

In fact, in light of many "flame wars" I have seen at other sites... if this is as bad as this site gets... I have a whole new level of GOOD respect for everybody on both sides of the discussion!

In the end, my opinion comes down to this: Say what you have to, play as politely as you can, and obey the moderators. We're all at this party on their permission, and they can revoke it any time they like... none of us paid money for the privelige of being here...

I'll follow their guidelines. If they say I'm misbehaving, I will either change my behaviour or leave. Until then I will be guided by my own honour and conscience... and I will respect all others who are as well... which so far seems to include everyone who has posted in this thread.... :cool:

(Big smile) Etiquite started as the rules to the party being written on th eback of the invitation... no broad swords, acceptable attire defined, etc.

I started a thread recently wih rules, and i have, i think, killed off ALL PARTICIPATION! Ha ha ha what irony for me! I wanted MORE participation, not less.

Still the thread is young. Besides, it may just be boring! : )

See ya...

Oh, and I'd love to have a breakdown charcterizing the input you got, espcially with respect to involved and uninvolved.... :)

That's fine David.....I'll PM you with that.....:).....no names mentioned whatsover.....TOTAL anonymity.....

Well, for myself, my problem with that term is one scientific reason and one unscientific.

scientific- the word "damage" implies that it was damaged by something or some action, so I see that as inaccurate.

unscientific- it's emotionally loaded- stigmatizing someone with the label "minimally brain damaged" is, I think, over the line we need to be at to get ADD recognized as a real disability.

Inquiring about others' motivations sounds less offensive than just accusing them. The problem with that is people's capacity for self-delusion and rationalization.

You know? I was totally confused what was going on. It seemed if people just honored everyone's right to their own opinion, why were people taking objection to what another was saying?
We are all at different stages of ADD. Some of us go one way some go others. ADD is as different as our personalities.
I think each of you had points in your favors and I also saw you all actually agreed on many points. It appeared you were thinking of each other, It was more how you read what was written.
and lets face it, ADDers can misspeak like the rest of the world ;)

I'm still getting a kick out of how much of a big deal this "heated" discussion was.

Maybe I'm just used to other boards.

If you want to see heated check out http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/
Any of the "discussions" involving Guns or other Freedom related topics are entertaining. People throw logic out the window and start getting out of control.

I don't think any of us (especially us :P ) tow the line very often. We're always over or under it.

Thanks for posting!

It is SO HARD for me to not comment on other people's posts!

So that will come to light in other threads at other times!

Thanks for sharing! I really apreciate it!

Hi,

I sort of missed out on the heated subject matter too. Like Innatentive type said....I go to other boards also and heated discussions can sort of be the norm. What I have always liked here is that everyone is soooooooooo well behaved..lol...But I believe it doesn't hurt to open up discussions that don't always follow popular belief. Yes some might be offended.....true....but isn't that the way of the world? We can agree to disagree? Maybe having a section called "contraversial" might help? Might be a place where some can go and air their opinions and get them out! Then those who dare to enter...lol...can try and make there objections heard too! Just a thought.

Deb,

I rate that a 10. Lets have a controversial section! It has a nice tune, and a beat I can really dance to!

(Will I be allowed to post outsde of there?) :)

I agree with Deb in the sence that
--------------------------------------------------
if the TV offends you

turn it OFF

its your choice
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I only scanned the entire thread as not being here much any more becuse of work

-------------------------------------------------------
Work gets in the way of life you Know !!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------

I didnt get to participate in that discussion and I think Im glad as I also have some very definate oppinions about it....
_________________________________________
I have allways lived by the aspect of

Call me an ***** to my face if you wish

but be prepared to tell me why

so I can fix it

If I dont know why someone thinks im an ******

then I cant correct it

_________________________________________
with regards to this thread and

Which brings me to the point of this thread; what's over the line? I'd like for us to have a frank, blunt dissection of the aforementioned closed thread and have others give their opinion of what's over the line.
_________________________________________

The easiest way for me to put my oppinion in here is to speak directly to ForceForGood and express that my oppinion is

That if it is Stated with a Disclamier at the start of the post that

"Participation Is Totally Up To The Discretion Of The User"

as all threads are supposed to be in this forum

I guess I feel that the thread shouldnt have been closed so much as maybe it should have been moved to an area where you need to "open a door"," so to speak to enter the thread."

I would have liked to participate in that thread that we are more or less talking about

As I feel that I am Both

I am Different (than "What society conciders " THE NORM" )

I am Damaged (from "What society conciders " THE NORM" )

But That is There Oppinion


_________________________________

What is Over The Line



That has to be left up to the discression of the user who is participating in the thread as we are all entitled to our own oppinions and should have the right to sate them

In a nice Political way without intentionally hurting someone else

I may at sometime write something that hurts someone else but I dont do it intentanally

It is how they interpet what I am TRYING to say that ussually causes the problem
-----------------------------------------
I am OLD FAT and UGLY

That is My Oppinion

Not every one agreeed with me

-----------------------------------------

I Do NOT HAVE A Disease

I Do Not HAVE ADD

I am ADD

__________________________

Not everyone agrees with this statement

But that is my OPPINION

I dunno..but I really do believe that everyone needs to have a place to voice there opinion. Even if it doesn't follow what the majority believes. What better place for some here...than a true place of their peers? ADDers are often misunderstood in the main stream...so why shouldn't they be allowed to at least vent their opinions here. I do believe tho' that there should be a special place for it. Like Garry pointed out..if the TV offends you turn it off...LOL>>> I do that often...As long as someone isn't attacking another or being abusive ..I don't see how an opinion can hurt? Censorship is running wild these days...and I don't believe that it is a good thing. What better place to say what is really on your mind than here in cyberspace....I have often said things in space that I would never utter in real life. Thank God that I have been able to do so...I swear at times I felt like I was going to explode!!!!!! :confused: Maybe the board managers could entitle this "Contraversial" enter at your own risk! LOL>>>> I bet ya there will be alot of lurkers...lol..watch the viewing meter!!!!!! Also adding a disclaimer ( of course ;) )

Deb replied before I was done editing

And I agree with DEB

Watch the VEIWING Meter

Controled censership is posibly what causes us so much problem as when you say something and didnt mean any harm by it ,but the way it was interpeted by the other party is what caused the problem.

If the other party cant stand up and say "I am hurt or offended by your statment "

"Please explain what you mean"

then there are 2 parties being HURT

The party making the statment

and

the party recieving the statement

A 3rd party intevening and cencering something makes it so that the hurt will never go away as there is now no way to appoligise for the way someting has been said and restating it with different words.

Censership sucks

Moderation is the key

my oppinion for what it is worth

Well reasoned. Thank you. I am trying to find a middle ground between posting in the most sensitive way I can while still being able to forcefully argue my position.

I'm aware that not everyone can handle full-on shouting matches, that that kind of passion is uncomfortable for them, and I take that into account as I want people to get the help they need from here- HOWEVER -I question whether censorship is the answer.

I am instinctively repulsed by that, and the thread closing. If all it takes is a few ruffled feathers for a thread to be closed, we will eventually see the most controversial posters leave the board, and the board itself drift down into a kind of humdrum, don't-want-to-offend-anyone-self-censored boring board where the only thing accomplished is comraderie and discussion of what everyone always agrees on.

This is not what America's about, I think it's counterproductive, and it offends me that I feel like now there's a parent/authority type standing over my shoulder now watching what I post and might at any second shut down this thread if I get too controversial/post too forcefully/don't choose my words carefully enough so as not to offend anyone.

I think a better way is to pm the person at least ONCE and tell them that in your OPINION, he/she is being offensive/insensitive or whatever. After all, we are ADD, we may not be aware of it- and I know for myself I'd appreciate the input.

I think closing the thread (and without any warning, any attempts to intervene and steer the conversation away from what the mod apparently thought were dangerous waters) is a TERRIBLE way to do it that sends the signal that those posting to it have FAILED yet AGAIN, that they've screwed up in some way, that we are so incapable, our social skills so poor that we need someone watching over us lest we destroy this entire board by driving away people with our passion.

I think it's more likely that people just won't go to that thread if it makes them uncomfortable. As Gary said, change the channel.

Originally posted by Keppig
You know? I was totally confused what was going on.

It seemed if people just honored everyone's right to their own opinion, why were people taking objection to what another was saying?

It was more how you read what was written.

and lets face it, ADDers can misspeak like the rest of the world ;)

Yep. Well maybe it is a male thing... but i LIKE the high energy and i LIKE challenging and BEING challenged about what i have read/said. If I don't do that, wha tis the point? (Female perspective is" you know wha tsomeone else thinks... maybe. I don't know what someone else thinks untill its been through the wringer!)

I think misreading had alot to do with some of the attitude that developed, but I don't really object to that either. We are all ADD!

Hey AForceForGood...

The thread had sort of fallen into apologetics... and I don't think it was really going where i wanted (ooh me... thread starter.. . (id di start that one didn't I?)) so it was sort of dead already... and it is still here. and so are we. And I really did "restart" it under new rules, and not too many people have discovered it yet, and almost nobody is getting the hooks they need, the contraversy, to stimulate their participation.

It reminds me of the post about not being able to go on the attack... its like maybe, with ADHD , if there isn't something to organize around, a lightening rod, its hard to get started.

Reminds me of the starters used to get crystals growing.

Originally posted by aforceforgood
I think closing the thread (and without any warning, any attempts to intervene and steer the conversation away from what the mod apparently thought were dangerous waters) is a TERRIBLE way to do it that sends the signal that those posting to it have FAILED yet AGAIN, that they've screwed up in some way, that we are so incapable, our social skills so poor that we need someone watching over us lest we destroy this entire board by driving away people with our passion.

Hehehe... while I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Aforce, forgive me if I am blunt in saying that your social skills have deserted you in this paragraph. (And mine have probably deserted me in pointing this out...) Posts that sound so critical of moderators have gotten me kicked out of other forums...

I assume you are saying it thus because you feel so vehemently about your position?

Originally posted by Wheel1975
It reminds me of the post about not being able to go on the attack... its like maybe, with ADHD , if there isn't something to organize around, a lightening rod, its hard to get started.

Reminds me of the starters used to get crystals growing.

GREAT analogy Wheel!!!!

Hey Force...can this Canadian Gal correct something? I think it is not only UnAmerican..is is also un Canadian..and other things besides. In my books it is just not right. I agree with so much of what you wrote. People here come to vent, share, and learn how ADD affects our lives. If we have to be careful to watch what we write, what we say, what we think...not to be deleted or heaven forbid..be banned from this forum...what is the point? We all come from different walks of life. We come from all over the world, but ultimately we all came here because ADD has affected our lives. As sharers of this bond there must be a way of accepting others opinions and points of view without being punished for not following the status quo. Like I said before..can't we all agree to disagree from time to time? What is so wrong with that?

I heard a thing on NPR that ws very interesting abot the FRENCH.

They tend to start conversations by saying something, contravesial or incindiary. they just like the exchange, they aren't trying to attack.

At the same time, they ONLY talk to people they want to have a relationship with. No casual chit chat.

Finally, if the introductions go well, then maybe they will get around to sharing name and work. Starting with those is like jumping into bed together before courtship for them, and puts them off.

I just have to wonder if the public side of this conversation might not be based on assumptions about the "management" side of things that aren't correct.

I think the problem with ADD is a statements based bias instead of asking questions to confirm suspitions. Perhaps we need to ask "management" some questions before we get our hackles up?

(where is the spell check button?)

Thanks, David.

To all on the ADD Forums:

Ask away. If you have a question about how this forum is run, rules, guidelines or "management" actions, please PM (private message) your questions to me, and I will do my best to respond to each and every one of you in a timely fashion.

Thanks :)

LOL @ David..I loved your presumptions about the French...you learn something new everyday. I am not french btw...I only live here in French Canada....lol..

Please remember that the main reason of this forum is for support. When the tone of the board shifts in a different direction administrators and moderators take actions.

Please also remember that ALL of you agreed to the fact that ADD Forums has the right to remove posts for any reason.

Originally posted by Debralee
LOL @ David..I loved your presumptions about the French...you learn something new everyday. I am not french btw...I only live here in French Canada....lol..

Thaks,

Actually the NPR story was done by a French Canadian who was trying to understand why things went so poorly for him when he went to France. After all, He basically spoke the language!!!

(So the "presumptions" are his.. I'm just passing them along as interesting!)

http://www.addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=75

Originally posted by livingwithadd
Please remember that the main reason of this forum is for support. When the tone of the board shifts in a different direction.... then the tone drifted as is want to do in ADD...

I think that this really says it.

If we want to "work out the details" of ADHD, that really isn't the avowed focus of this board.

Support is a real and singular need.

And as I have discovered in another thread, frequently very different from assistance or advice, etc.

I'm a member of a program with a single focus, and i think it works well being what it is. People in alanon are NOT told to throw away their meds, quit counseling, divorce their spouses, or any of the opposites. It is a SUPPORT group, not a FIX IT group and the difference is ONE of the reasons that it has value in the first place.

Thanks for your statement, quoted above. It makes perfect sense to me!

Hey David,
His presumtions were interesting...lol..I sure got a chuckle out of them. When I sit back and see the whole French situation...I can see how a French Canadian can have a hard time in France...they have a hard time understanding others in their own province...so called anglophones. I am amazed daily at how language differences here can make such unrest. I am fully bilingual run a business here also. But in Quebec you are told and forced to use the French language or face a fine for not conforming. So that is probably why I have so much distain for censorship...in any form. For now I have to follow certain rules to live here...but my days of life in Quebec are soon over...thank God..lol..I will be following the rules in the US of A in the new year...

Originally posted by BIG
Thanks, David.

To all on the ADD Forums:

Ask away. If you have a question about how this forum is run, rules, guidelines or "management" actions, please PM (private message) your questions to me, and I will do my best to respond to each and every one of you in a timely fashion.

Thanks :)


Andrew: May I make a suggestion about this??? IF you do this: POST the questions as you get them....(leave the person's name out)....and your answer to them....so we may all see what questions people ask....

Originally posted by BIG
Ask away. If you have a question about how this forum is run, rules, guidelines or "management" actions, please PM (private message) your questions to me, and I will do my best to respond to each and every one of you in a timely fashion.

Thanks

Originally posted by livingwithadd
Please also remember that ALL of you agreed to the fact that ADD Forums has the right to remove posts for any reason.

Thanks for the input Wheel, but I was aware of what I was doing. If this board is going to be a place where I have to tiptoe around with what I say, then I'd rather find that out quickly so I could just go look for another place where I can speak my mind without undue fear of censorship.

The "secret court" method Big mentions rubs me the wrong way, as does the response from living, which to me basically communicates that mods reserve the right to censor me anytime they feel like it. No response to my concerns about censorship, just a terse, "we have the right to delete you" message. How exactly does that illuminate what they will and won't delete?

I'm apparently not understanding what the problem is here, so maybe the mods can explain it to me as to what specifically IS the problem?

Joan,

Thank you for your suggestion.

However, I intend to answer individual's questions, not debate them.

If, after reviewing people's questions, it makes sense to post a Frequently Asked Questions type post, I will certainly consider it.

If you have further issue with THIS post, please PM me.

Thank you.

Originally posted by BIG
Joan,

Thank you for your suggestion.

However, I intend to answer individual's questions, not debate them.

If, after reviewing people's questions, it makes sense to post a Frequently Asked Questions type post, I will certainly consider it.

If you have further issue with THIS post, please PM me.

Thank you.

Come on guys, just PM him and speak the way he feels comfortable doing this.

Give him an ADHD break!

we should remember our hosts in our desire to have accomodations for people wiht ADD/ADHD!

I have not voiced at all during all of this because quite frankly I have found it paranoid, childish, selfish and unbeleivable. Number one, when you join the forums you agree to the terms of use. If you as an adult do not read them or adhere to them that is on you as an individual.There are plenty of forums where argueing and the rest is acceptable. I use them,I go to them I argue there I also curse, talk inapporopriately and get alot of iggys . BUT because it is acceptable use there I am ok to do it. It is NOT acceptable use here. Andrew's offer to help or clarify anyone's questions was hardly a secret meeting and that statement is simply inflamitory. I strongly suggest people back up, hose down and remember you are here through choice.

also before anyone gets their back up or decides my post was edited for some clandestine reason, i had spelling and I hate spelling errors in my work or the like.

Wheel post a link to your new thead as I cant remeber where it was

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2255

Garry the other one is in the first post of this thread.

What have I learned from this...

I have learned that being a moderator is a tough job.

When a topic brings out such strong responses from people, the job of a moderator gets really, really hard.

A moderator needs to be able to monitor all threads that are active, to make sure that the forum guidelines are respected...for the benefit of all who both post and for those who just read.

The aim of the forum is to be a place for support. How much support has each one of us received from this forum over time?

For me it has been great, unbelievably so...and from the posts I've read of others, plenty more have received a lot of benefit from this forum. I credit the moderator and site-admins for the creation and ongoing support that has allowed this place to develop into the wonderful place that it is today.

In a perfect world, the challenge of a forum like this, is to try and not shut down threads at all.

However, if a thread moves in a direction that is going to impact or offend others; then the moderators have to strike a balance between closing the thread too early and being seen as possibly overbearing; or closing the thread too late; and having possibly a large number of people offended.

There is also the real risk of the whole value of the board being undermined.

There are some topics and issues that will create a lot of debate...heated debate. Although I like to join in on these, I think the risk that these topics create can be greater than the value eventually received. I'll give you a little analogy.

When I was younger, I was allowed an hour's worth of play till it was dark, and then I had to come in and do my homework. On plenty of occasions, I would be having sooo much fun, and would want to keep playing, that I wanted to stay out longer.

My mother would not give in...I used to get so angry some times...how dare she stop my fun!!. It took a long time to understand why my mother never let me stay out.

You see....my mother wasn't trying to stop me having fun....she was managing the risk between me playing in the daylight; where I can be seen; and any dangers can be seen.

As soon as it gets dark; the danger from myself goes way up...and the possibility of some other danger being around also went up. She set the balance point and managed it accordingly.

Now I know that I always thought that I could manage things...but there was always the chance that I might not..or that something would happen. By not crossing that line; although she did annoy me...I managed to survive each and every day without an incident, without having anything happen from being out too late in the dark.

I needed someone to provide that long term view (safety) which my immediate view (high stimulating fun) didn't want to understand.

With this forum, the moderators are only trying to manage the risk, not stifle conversation. The overall risk to the board needs to be managed, and the moderators spend a large amount of time doing it.

It is a big job, a hard job...and a job where you know that you will make some decisions that will not be popular some people.

I think one of the best things we can learn from this, is that this forum is a precious resource that we should not lose and should not be put at risk of losing.

I don't have an alternative to where or how to discuss these things...but in the absence of knowing what to do, I think we might want to sit back a little bit and not try and push the forum to be something that it is not.

For the harsh topics, we need collectively to think smarter on how to do it. Let's not try and make the moderators the bad guys in this. It is on our collective behalf that they are there, not to make life difficult.

Think of them as the mother who keeps an eye out for the approaching darkness...and calls us in when they can see danger approaching.

I think the moderators made the right call in closing the thread. Although it was fascinating and interesting, it definitely had the signs of danger written all over it.

I think it is just hard for us with ADD to sometimes let go of things we are passionate about until the right place to discuss these things is found. We just love jumping in boots and all....damn the risk!

I don't know if there is ever going to be a right place for us ADDers to discuss some of these more involved topics, as I can see many ADD traits are likely to kick in and one day there could be a blood bath.

In the mean time though, I think that we should respect the value of what this forum does offer, and work WITH the moderators to see if something can be worked out to discuss these risky topics...but lets not try and rush it.

I trust them to make, and depend on them to make, those decisions which are in the best interest of the forum...even the ones that may, do and will probably again annoy me at some point. I have faith in them making the tough decisions.

I give my 100% support to the moderators in this difficult and challenging time, they've earned my respect and my gratitude. Remember also, that if the job wasn't difficult enough to begin with; that they have ADD and are one of us as well!!

Sleepz.

Good post Sleepz

I read the rules that have now been posted and I dont find anything new in them that has changed except they are now down in black and white as opposed to the way they were which was simply general knowlage that everybody supposedly knew what they were.( I had a word for it but I forgot it )( ADDforgot)

I have no problem with there decision as they did what they thought was best for the masses.

I personally enjoy a good old debate /argument as long as all people concerned are aware of when its all over and we all have said our piece then its like the joke

Question --- How many ADDkids does it take to change a light bulb

Answer --- Want to go bike riding

I feel that if anybody wishes to continue the discussion on that paticular thread then it would only be common curtosey to "Take It Outside"

The forum of coarse

im not sure exactly how the saying goes but it is something along the the line of

Sometimes we have to sacrifice the rights of the few for the good of the many.

They also have my 100 % support for there decision as I know myself I probally would have not made the same decision but would probally have been right in there in the middle of the whole thing.

There have been no rules made about specific issues not being allowed for discussion. When the thread was closed I was pmed by people asking why. I told people the reasoning. These people were also told that they were welcome to start the discussion up again in another thread.

I think most of you have found that the moderators and admins are more than willing to answer questions when we are treated with respect.

There are no rules here saying that you can't have passionate discussions at ADD Forums. However when the ADD Forums staff suspects that things are getting out of control we will step in.

I feel that you guys do a wonderful job and its not an easy job as it takes a lot of time and remebering power to keep tabs on all the threads that are happening at any paticular time.

and then when you have had the time to go over everything that you feel you want to keep abrest of , by that time a zillion more new threads have poped up and you have to reset your list of things to keep abrest of and start all over again
and so on and so on and so on

keep up the good work as we all need this place to call home

Garry