As much as I possibly could over the last year...I having been hitting this golly darn (g.d. for short) nail on the head...over, and over, and over again. The point I am driving at is that ADHD IS A HUGE PROBLEM IN SCHOOL. That message has got to be marketed better, it's just not understood. Not only is it a HUGE problem for the underachieving and failing ADHD students, it's a HUGE problem for the teachers. Bipolar kids who are manic, PTSD kids having an emotional outburst, Autism spectrum when it is misunderstood/dealt with wrong...can all be hell for a teacher. Yet there is no greater disruptive force in the traditional classroom, day in-day out....then students with ADHD. To begin with, there are just a lot more of them. :soapbox:

About 4 years ago, they reformed the school in Quebec. Now, kids are learning by project instead of just being fill with stuff like empty jar. There is some pressure from some conservative people who don't believe in those methods to reverse to traditionnal schooling. I'm pretty sure that ADDers and gifted benefit from the new methods and I hope that they will stick with it.

Scuro,

How do you convince resistant parents to give their young children stimulants? Keeping in mind that many parents never get to see just how different their child is at school and how much of a challenge it can be to teach them, how do you approach this?

You work with whatever is in front of you...move forward. Can you get 1 credit, 2, or all four in a semester? Help them do the work, completing assignments is often key to passing. Know your stuff...show the student the benefits of identification. Document your reasons and explain it to the parents. Get a good diagnosis, IPRC, and tight IEP. Surprisingly most professionals don't explain how ADHD really works. When you finally get to this stage, explain what is happening at the neural level to the parents. Then you explain what stimulants do, as we know it. I leave it at that but usually they have questions.

Scuro, in your opinion, is it better to give a kid stimulents and send them to school or to keep them off stimulents (assuming no ODD or Conduct Disorder) and homeschool them -- at least in the early grades?

Scattered

That message has got to be marketed better, it's just not understood.Yet there is no greater disruptive force in the traditional classroom, day in-day out....then students with ADHD. To begin with, there are just a lot more of them.


Okay the subject ADD is difficult in the class room settings. I am going to assume you are addressing the children’s ADD in the class room and not your own!!!!

Student teacher ratio has a lot to do with it.

traditional classroom, day in-day out

Also the phrase "class room setting" with “day in and day out” in and of itself gives hint to the problem.

Being contained in a room for hours at a time sucks listening to lecture, watching films, sitting and sitting expected to be quiet and still, is like being in Hades, especially for us hyper types. I would think those who are hyper present the biggest problems for teachers.

Are you simply wanting to vent as to how difficult having ADD kids in your class is?????

I do think this direct approach is the beginning of progress.

I do not know how much different class rooms are in Canada when compared to here in Texas.

I am going to assume you are addressing the children’s ADD in the class room and not your own!!!!
Nothing like an ADHD mom to take you down a peg. lol


Student teacher ratio has a lot to do with it.
For ADHD kids it doesn't matter much if there are 40 or 20 kids in the classroom. Learning to their potential typically only happens in a very small group.


Being contained in a room for hours at a time sucks listening to lecture, watching films, sitting and sitting expected to be quiet and still, is like being in Hades, especially for us hyper types. I would think those who are hyper present the biggest problems for teachers.
Hyper I can take..they are often charming...but Hyper and oppositional, now I am earning my pay. Then you get to hyper and conduct...Holy Mother of Mary...:eek:


Are you simply wanting to vent as to how difficult having ADD kids in your class is?????

I do think this direct approach is the beginning of progress.


I do not know how much different class rooms are in Canada when compared to here in Texas.

Actually I am shy but Andrew told me to be "like that" over this last little while so that the moderators would stay on their toes. lol :D That Andrew...such a jokester.

I'm throwing it all out in the open. Why pussyfoot around? These are real issues we all live with everyday. Surprisingly my observations are not being rejected. This tells me it's like this in many places.

For ADHD kids it doesn't matter much if there are 40 or 20 kids in the classroom. Learning to their potential typically only happens in a very small group.
Anecdotally, my ADHD cousin did much better with reduced class sizes (to about 15-20). Even on stimulants, he was struggling in a larger classroom. Now he's top of his class.

There may well have been other factors, but going from 30+ kids in a room to 15 means you get twice as much one-on-one from the teacher. Atmosphere and the mere presence of the teacher may do a lot for some kids.

Personally, heck, that's why I get up early and go in to my college campus on Saturdays - it's not because I can't stand to be away from the school, it's because I benefit from even being in the school atmosphere. I did much better in classes where the teacher even just walked around the room instead of staying up front - they didn't even have to talk to me.

I can totally see class size making a difference for some kids.

I went to a small private school, and I think it did wonders for me--I remeber there was this girl who was dyslexic and ADD--her parents fought with the public school system and took her case to court, saying that a small private school was the only solution for her--the courts agreed, and the government paid her tuition.....so, while we continue to work on our school system, maybe for those parents who need help NOW, considering sending the child to a small school would help.

Part of why I chose to attend my particular college was because of their size: 1200 students, class sizes generally between 15-30 kids at the basic levels, going down as low as a half-dozen for the advanced classes later on. Faculty student ratio was somewhere around 8:1, each student had a faculty advisor, and each advisor had only a small group of students to advise.

Surprisingly my observations are not being rejected. This tells me it's like this in many places.

I have seen the class room from a student’s point of view, and from a parents point of view but I have never seen it from a teachers perspective. For me personally it is a unique opportunity to see class from a different perspective.

School was a struggle for me as a student. Most of my teachers were helpful and genuinely cared. Although known for my impulsiveness and tendency to blurt out answers I believe I was a pleasant student. I had a hard time learning many things even after I kind of got the sit down and shut up part to an acceptable level, but it was never out of lack of trying. I think most teachers could see that.

I was seen favorably by teachers who taught in a more interactive style especially in middle and high school. In those grades many kids are “too cool” to interact. Not me I interacted with the lessons weather or not I actually wanted to. Although I never tried to influence others it always seemed that once I “broke the silence” so to speak the whole class room would be involved in the class.

I was one of those “dirty shirt kids” mentioned in one of the other threads. Like every thing I am involved in, I never fit the “typical” type. I hung out with the “not so good crowd” but rarely got into trouble. I didn’t “spurn” teachers authority like many of my friends did. I did not think it was right to treat people in an ugly way weather they were teachers or other students. My grades remained decent and I was easier to teach stoned!!!! I could shut my mind and mouth up long enough to get the information in.


Class size did make a difference. The only large class I did well in was science. It had probably 50-60 Jr. High kids but 4 teachers. I loved the lab especially. Although I was expected to operate like a bull in a china shop, once again I refused to fit into stereotype as I was actually very coordinated and skilled when engaged in lab experiments.

I was once used as an example by the teachers in this science class to demonstrate the meaning of intuition. Before the questions were even asked and while I was off in “commercial land” not paying attention. I was picked by the teachers as being able to demonstrate intuition!!!!! Three other top student were used as a “control” group. They only got one of the four answers correct!!!! They asked me questions about scientific material I had not learned and to my own surprise I got them all correct. I have often wondered how the teachers knew I would be able to “pull this off”.

That was the only large class I ever did well in and I was seated at the front of the class because I couldn’t shut up. That was their “punishment” for blabber mouths like me!!! Most of the time larger classes were too distracting. After this particular punishment , I used to pretend I lost my glasses in other classes so I would be allowed to sit in the front of the class. Many of the teachers assigned seats by alphabet and would only allow variations for those who had vision problems. At the time I didn’t understand why I just knew I did better in class if I was sitting in the front row. I now understand there were fewer distractions between me and the teacher when I sat up front!!!!!!!




Hyper I can take..they are often charming...but Hyper and oppositional, now I am earning my pay. Then you get to hyper and conduct...Holy Mother of Mary...

You should try them at home!!!!!!! I reared one of those. She got her Dad’s twisted cynical attitude, intolerance, my big mouth, and obstinate from both sides, not an easy combination on anyone including her!!!



I'm throwing it all out in the open. Why pussyfoot around? These are real issues we all live with everyday.

I for one am glad you did!!!!!!!!

Thanks for this thread, scuro. Like others, I've been on the side of the student and the parent, but not the teacher.

School for me was quite frankly hell. Mind-numbing, degrading, humiliating, having your soul ground into the dust. Then it really gets bad. ;)

There is no way I want my son to go through that stuff, so I'm prepared to battle for him. And if I can't beat his school into submission, I'll just homeschool him. But I won't stand by for this humiliation junk.

Not that I liked school either. I remember walking into my first elementary school for a teaching placement. I was honestly having feelings of revulsion. That didn't come from out of the blue.

A major difficulty that many teachers have with ADHD students is that they take the behaviour personally. They simple don't understand the disorder and some would never want to, because it goes against their personal belief system.

That was the only large class I ever did well in and I was seated at the front of the class because I couldn’t shut up. That was their “punishment” for blabber mouths like me!!! Most of the time larger classes were too distracting. After this particular punishment , I used to pretend I lost my glasses in other classes so I would be allowed to sit in the front of the class. Many of the teachers assigned seats by alphabet and would only allow variations for those who had vision problems. At the time I didn’t understand why I just knew I did better in class if I was sitting in the front row. I now understand there were fewer distractions between me and the teacher when I sat up front!!!!!!!I don't know if my teachers purposely put me up front or not. It seems like I was pretty close a lot of the time. I do remember having my desk to the side or up by the teacher's in lower grades occasionally. Once I got to choose where I wanted to sit I was always front and center. I'd make sure to be there early so I could sit up front. Never figured out why, until I got my ADHD diagnosis, I just knew it drove me absolutely bonkers to sit in the back -- it was a boring and irritable/antsy experience for me. I was always interactive with the teacher. It was one of those, "Does anybody else except ______ have the answer?" I think interacting with the material was the only way to keep my focus or to remember/understand the material. I must have driven my poor teacher's bonkers. They were a good group though.

Scattered

Scattered, everything you just said is ME.

That was the only large class I ever did well in and I was seated at the front of the class because I couldn’t shut up. That was their “punishment” for blabber mouths like me!!!
Now they call it "accomodations". :p

Now they call it "accomodations". :pGood reframing, eh?!;)

There is an Autistic child in my special ed class who always drives the teacher
crazy. He's always talking when not supposed to and has problems controlling
himself. Sometimes i feel bad for him. This doesn't have much to do with it,
but just thought it might share.

It was one of those, "Does anybody else except ______ have the answer?" I think interacting with the material was the only way to keep my focus or to remember/understand the material. I must have driven my poor teacher's bonkers. They were a good group though.


EXACTLY!!!! If the class was interactive I was always present mentally and physically. I was always very interactive friendly and I do learn best this way. If I have no reason to remember some thing then I don’t However being allowed to talk in class was often a good enough reason to learn a subject.

If it was lecture style or read to self in class forget it I am either engaged in a contraband discussion some times on contraband!!! If caught I would pass notes doodle, practice calligraphy. I think I was in high school before I learned taking notes helped me to remain engaged,

There were some subjects I just wasn’t designed to absorb!!!!!!!


Now they call it "accommodations".

ROFL!!!!!!

Sometimes i feel bad for him. This doesn't have much to do with it,
but just thought it might share.

Actually this has a lot to do with this discussion. I can imagine it is hard not only on him but on you having to be there but unable to change him or the situation. You sound very empathic!!!

EXACTLY!!!! If the class was interactive I was always present mentally and physically. I was always very interactive friendly and I do learn best this way. If I have no reason to remember some thing then I don’t However being allowed to talk in class was often a good enough reason to learn a subject. This is a hoot, Tammy!:D I love how you put stuff -- yeah, getting to talk in class was a good enough reason to learn the material, although I'd never thought of it as it's own motivation before -- it might explain why I was interested in such a wide range of subjects. Now there's nothing much to talk about in Math or Spelling, which of course are my worst subjects!If it was lecture style or read to self in class forget it I am either engaged in a contraband discussion some times on contraband!!! If caught I would pass notes doodle, practice calligraphy. I think I was in high school before I learned taking notes helped me to remain engaged, I recently ran into an old friend of mine who also has ADHD traits and a ADHD kid on meds. He said the same thing that if he didn't take notes, he couldn't stay engaged and remember the material. I'm the same way.There were some subjects I just wasn’t designed to absorb!!!!!!!That would be math, spelling and statistics in my case!

If it was lecture style or read to self in class forget it I am either engaged in a contraband discussion some times on contraband!!! If caught I would pass notes doodle, practice calligraphy. I think I was in high school before I learned taking notes helped me to remain engaged
It never mattered to me if it was lecture or discussion or what, I always have to be doing something else at the same time. One of my professors during my 3rd year of grad school noticed that I was always grading papers or something like that during our seminar & asked me about it. He said he knew a few people that were like that; I wonder how many of them were ADHD!

I've found in the last month that, if I'm interested in what's being discussed, I don't multitask in class anymore. Adderall may slow me down in some ways I guess. But, it's a small price to pay!

Adderall may slow me down in some ways I guess. But, it's a small price to pay!

Adderall may not be slowing you down despite feeling as if it does. Here is an excerpt from a book I found quiet interesting that presents the idea that the ADD medication may simply be stimulating your brain decreasing the need for you do so by engaging in a secondary activity. The secondary activity provided increased stimulation in your brain thus allowing you to be able to focus more intently on the primary activity.


Source-----------------------------------------
“Fidget to Focus”
By Roland Rotz PhD and Sarah D. Wright W.S.,A.C.T.
Page 38-39

Quote:

When we fidget in order to focus, the fidgeting results in the short-term modulation of our deregulated neurological system . This is, at least, What we think is going on knowing what we do Is about neurology. The deregulation happens when there is not enough stimulation for the feed back loops in our brains to sustain adequate biochemical activity. When we are underarounsed the sense we are predominantly using is operating ineffectively in that moment . For instance of our minds are not able to sustain focus during a lecture, happens because our auditory processing is failing to keep us sufficiently stimulated, despite the level of importance of the event. In simpler terms the activity may be interesting just not interesting enough to keep our attention.

In simplest terms an effective fidget is a secondary sensory-motor activity we engage in to support the first.

----------------------End Source--------------------------------------

This book really has opened my eyes to what happened during my school years. I was able to wiggle and learn. As a matter of fact, it is when they insisted I sit still my focus decreased because I had to focus on the darn sitting still.

It from this resource that encouraged me to read and type while wearing head phones and listening to music. Interestingly enough music that I find helpful while reading and typing is of a different musical rhythm than those I find effective while driving!!!!!!!

Reading and typing I found techno (know any good artist) and fast style instrumental music the most effective. However while driving it is contemporary Christian and classic rock!!!!!! Busy big city traffic of Austin it's heavy metal:p!!!!!! Traffic jams I forget the music and simply meditate or finish an article I wrote a month ago but have failed to do the final edit!!!!;)

If I had Meadd as my mom, I would be doing the jig every morning before school !!!
She would be the most kickas* mom, I swear !!!!!

In the past, being an ADHDer (yeah I know- symantics- potato/potatoh...y'all know what the hades I mean, already) in a traditional classroom absolutely sukked !!!!

Smelling the india ink on the ditto paper was more fun than reading them, because the material sukked !!
I know I'm not my usual intellectual self, but the way they taught ADHDers, in teh traditional sense, and still do on occasion...ready...sukked, LOL !!

Especially when a chapter is now 25 pages long to make up for the rising cost of tuition and the cost of books (hmmmmmm...made you think, didn't I ?)
It's either that, or the authors are using filler words and are long winded when writing as I am, and do not go back to re-read their own material, LMAO !!!

(go on Scuro- I give you permission to make me laugh and say something charming and witty, cause I could use the hearty laugh after the week I've had, Gorgeous !)

Anways- I vote for classes being a two hours long...but divied up in incriments of half an hour long at the most, with 10 minute 'recesses' in between.

It may not be as ludicrous as you think for an ADHDer, and someone like me will retain the material better that way.

Otherwise I still say the traditional way...... sukks. (0;

This is, once again, my reflection, and it mostly pertains to some of the left brained college professors I have to deal with, who refuse to compromise with my creative needs of learning- hence my need to refuse to compromise to their needs of teaching methods.
I usually win- in understanding that I'm paying for the course, and I'm brilliant enough in also understanding that I have the option of withdrawing before I get a failing grade (it's known as survival in law school- you don't even question it, you JUST DO IT), and retake the course again, with a more creative professor- aka: an ADD professor
Nova

Meadd823: 'If I have no reason to remember some thing then I don’t'

Y'all ever think about all the years we have gone to school and how much 'stuff' that was supposedly on the required 'remember list'... ?

And then think of all the jobs you had..and that 'remember list'...

And all the obligations with prior/current family/spouses/boy-girl-friends and that 'remember list'.....

Not to mention all the rules of society, state/federal statutes and that 'remember list'...

And all the made up ones that people you don't even know, decide to create, just now....those 'remember lists'...too...if you are slightly OCD...


OK...so now I have to resort back to a favorite potty mouth swear word of mine that begins with the letters WT.... ?

Makes me glad that I do lack attention.. Glad I don't listen well, and don't keep those 'remember lists'

Even if it seems to 'hurt' most people's feelings..because there is not enough room in my brain, no matter how much the people who create those idiotic 'remember lists' want me to...

I only have room for current events..and that means immediate current events- as in the this day.
If you, or the event shows up on my mobile reminder- then I'll remember it.

Otherwise the event doesn't exist.

That's what works for me best. (0:
Nova

Smelling the india ink on the ditto paper was more fun than reading them, because the material sukked !!

.......

Anways- I vote for classes being a two hours long...but divied up in incriments of half an hour long at the most, with 10 minute 'recesses' in between.

Nova


Boy, that dates you. Dittos...what chemicals were we inhaling as we got our noses right up against the paper and then moved the paper across our face like a bow across a violin? Probably no worse then running after the "fog" (DDT) trucks at summer camp. Boy did that stuff create a "other world" like atmosphere with dry ice like effects. Theres nothing like the smell of fresh DDT in the morning!

Wonders what "Super"Nova would have been like at recess? Most likely inciting mayhem and getting all the cute boys on her side. :)

We had dittos in my kindergarten in...dang, I can't figure out what year that would have been (1989?) but I'm 21 now.

Maybe my school just hadn't "updated" at all, though. When my sister came along 3 1/2 years later...no dittos.

We had dittos in my kindergarten in...dang, I can't figure out what year that would have been (1989?) but I'm 21 now.

Maybe my school just hadn't "updated" at all, though. When my sister came along 3 1/2 years later...no dittos.

1989? Boy your school board must have been starved for money.

Boy, that dates you. Dittos...what chemicals were we inhaling as we got our noses right up against the paper and then moved the paper across our face like a bow across a violin? Probably no worse then running after the "fog" (DDT) trucks at summer camp. Boy did that stuff create a "other world" like atmosphere with dry ice like effects. Theres nothing like the smell of fresh DDT in the morning!

Wonders what "Super"Nova would have been like at recess? Most likely inciting mayhem and getting all the cute boys on her side. :)


All the cute ADD boys, Charmin' Scuro...just the ADD boys...
The rest of 'em were busy running back in the building to squeal on me and my mayhem peeps (0:

They would've been much more fun, had they taken more time to smell the dittos and run after the 'squito trucks, like the rest of us, instead of being the Grim Squealers.... sigh...


Nova

Bean Delphiki: 'When my sister came along 3 1/2 years later...no dittos'
Scuro: 'Boy your school board must have been starved for money'

It's because we were all 'smelling' all that india ink, at the same time, and now we depleted it !!!!! (0:

I still see a faint blue tinge on my kleenex every now and then...LMAO !!!

Lots of grim squealers at your school? That didn't happen at our school. It was an Animal Farm type of enviornment as we ran outside for recess...high on ditto fumes into the bracing brisk February air. Thats where all the Canadian hockey players got their training...on the playground, layered in protective snowpants with thick rubber boots. It was about guarding your piece of slippery ice or winter tundra. Only blood or a one sided fight would draw the teacher from their cigarette smoke infested lounge chairs in the staff room.

Lots of grim squealers at your school? That didn't happen at our school. It was an Animal Farm type of enviornment as we ran outside for recess...high on ditto fumes into the bracing brisk February air. Thats where all the Canadian hockey players got their training...on the playground, layered in protective snowpants with thick rubber boots. It was about guarding your piece of slippery ice or winter tundra. Only blood or a one sided fight would draw the teacher from their cigarette smoke infested lounge chairs in the staff room.
Yeah..St. Thomas Martyrs...oops Moore elementary, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, was filled with Grim Squealers.
It was the only way they were Saved (0: because they would want to get out of doing their chores or their classwork...
But most kids can be idiots..and that was then, and this is now (0:
And I'm no squealer- so it's ok.

The first time I saw snow, I was out of this country..in 77.
I was in Stavenger, Norway, with my Father's work at the time.
Pretty weird and wild at the same time.

You know what's even more cool though..how we grew up in totally different environments..and still share the same exact memories..like dittos and squito (fog trucks)..and I went to summer camp too...
I think that's really cool, Scuro. Really, really cool. (0:

Nova

..and ...and ....I didn't play hockey either!!!!! Well,....:o...at least not in a rink with a referee ...and there is no tundra where I live. It just made for a good emblishment. Did you buy that one? :)

Adderall may not be slowing you down despite feeling as if it does. Here is an excerpt from a book I found quiet interesting that presents the idea that the ADD medication may simply be stimulating your brain decreasing the need for you do so by engaging in a secondary activity. The secondary activity provided increased stimulation in your brain thus allowing you to be able to focus more intently on the primary activity.
I've always liked this theory. Even though it's not a very widely-examined theory (yet), I've discussed it with my students.

When my symptoms became so bad I couldn't study anymore, I tried a bunch of things including trying different secondary tasks. I think multitasking got me by for a VERY long time, but in the end it just wasn't enough.


“Fidget to Focus”
By Roland Rotz PhD and Sarah D. Wright W.S.,A.C.T.

This is one of the first books I got, but I haven't opened it yet! I'm hoping it will help my son.



It from this resource that encouraged me to read and type while wearing head phones and listening to music.
When I started commuting 90 miles to school more than 2 years ago, I fought drowsiness, even when I had plenty of sleep (you know, the same ADD-brand of sleepiness you get in a lecture). I started listening to audiobooks and haven't had a problem since. Something about the extra task makes me able to focus on the driving, too.

Sure ...Bunny...
I buy what..ever...you're selling at this late hour....

It's late, Sunshine.
I'm going to bed, before I say something more smarta** than usual. (0:

Want to remain my fun self.
You should do the same.

Nova

I think multitasking got me by for a VERY long time, but in the end it just wasn't enough.


Also multi-tasking can be sooooo very situation dependent!!!!

I can let my medication wear off at work and be fine while up doing patient care and passing medication. The loss of the medications effects isn't noticeable until...I sit down and try to chart!!!!! Paper work. boring paper work UGggggg I have to take my medications because there are no head phones or CD players at the nurse's station where I work!!!!!!


This is one of the first books I got, but I haven't opened it yet! I'm hoping it will help my son.

It is an easy read and short.

I have tried sleeping on open books while in school but I didn't absorb nearly as much of the information as I did by reading them.:p

I am sure with your career you have a waiting list of reading material!!!!!!

I am hyper and every thing is a distraction when I am unmediated. Multi-tasking helped me get by as I was ADHD-Impulsive before girls were "allowed" to have ADD!!!! Even today women with impulsive type ADD are not well studied much less understood!!!!!! Still think I was born the wrong gender or with the wrong ADD!!!! :faint: Not too sure which through :o

I am sure with your career you have a waiting list of reading material!!!!!!

OMG, UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE CENTURY!

You should see the stacks and stacks of books I've got just waiting for when I finally pass my qualifying exams! DH is getting really annoyed!

OMG, UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE CENTURY!

You should see the stacks and stacks of books I've got just waiting for when I finally pass my qualifying exams! DH is getting really annoyed!Oh yeah! I've always got a back log of books to read. One particular book that sat on my shelf for 10 years exactly (for some reason my mom wrote the month and year in it), was Driven to Distraction!!!:eek: When I was diagnosed in February with Adult ADHD, it was the first book on my to read list from the psychologist -- go figure! I saw myself everywhere in there -- I could have known about my ADHD 10 years earlier and saved my family and I all the garbage I put us through.:rolleyes: So much for ADHD procrastination.

Scattered

One particular book that sat on my shelf for 10 years exactly (for some reason my mom wrote the month and year in it), was Driven to Distraction!!!


Hey my mom gave me a book to read simply titled “ADD in adults”. I read the first three pages four or five times but was unable to read the book in it’s entirety until about six months after I was diagnosed!!!!! I was diagnosis shortly before "Driven to Distraction" was published.



So much for ADHD procrastination.

Consider this the official ceremonially passing of the procrastinators extraordinaire scepter!!! :p