Hey all, another recent thread got me wondering...

If given the chance to design a school specifically for AD/HD kids, what would it be like?

I know small classes would be a must. But what else? Short sessions? Long? No sessions? No windows or lots? Is there a practical solution or does everything have to be so tailor made that it's simply impractical?

Is something like this already being done somewhere?

Thanks for any answers-

Craig

I would say the school would need highly structured and high interest learning. There would be more "doing", more practical stuff, and it would be cool stuff. You would try to keep traditional pencil paper tasks more to English and Math. There would be a place for learning the basics well. EA's would assist. The interest stuff wouldn't have to be nontraditional subjects, rather that the teacher should truly love this subject and know how to make it interesting. There would be a lot more money for supplies. It would require more of a rotation of teachers instead of a one teacher all day long type of deal. I think another component would be the requirement of empathy and true understanding of the disorder by all staff in the school. The teachers would be the cream of the crop. They would be younger, driven, highly comfortable/ confident, and positive. Administration would be well versed on best practices and there would be a good Special Ed department to help with all of this.

Class size would not be such a major issue. Instead of dropping class size, I'd go for more EA's in a classroom. That way there is more one on one going on and if there is a problem the EA can isolate it outside of the classroom. You get a bigger bang for the buck that way because they earn about 1/2 the wage of a teacher. You get two EA's for every teacher that you don't hire. If the choice is only larger or smaller classrooms, then smaller is a no brainer.


That would be my dream school. It would still be a regular school.

It would require more of a rotation of teachers instead of a one teacher all day long type of deal. I think another component would be the requirement of empathy and true understanding of the disorder by all staff in the school. The teachers would be the cream of the crop. They would be younger, driven, highly comfortable/ confident, and positive.
I think your second statement here is much more important than the first and last.

As a mom of an ADD child, here's what his older, caring, empathetic, task-master of a teacher tells me: when she hands the class over to a sub, she can see the tears welling up in my son's eyes. He hates the change in teachers because he's comfortable that his teacher understands him and expects from him what he's capable of doing (be it more or less than other students). A new teacher means being treated like others with no understanding of his differences/needs.

I know small classes would be a must. But what else? Short sessions? Long? No sessions?

I don't think it's always about the length itself being the problem, but the fact that the session length is fixed. Sure, we probably need structure to keep the kids from doing nothing at all, but time in which the child is no longer in "learning mode" is time wasted. Likewise, if a child is really interested in something and you cut the session short, you could possibly be missing an opportunity to teach the child something before the child becomes bored and impatient.

There was a similar thread before: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18506&page=1&pp=15

Here was my response to that thread (and thus to this thread as well):

My opinion on the matter:

## Definition of the problems ##

The typical classroom of today is less than optimal for students with lack of attentional control as classroom learning methods rely on sustained attention to auditory and visual stimuli (mostly auditory), attention to detail, short-term memory, and organizational skills.


Today's classrooms are also sub-optimal for exploratory learners as such learners learn best through self-directed exploration in a non-linear manner. These learners are more concerned with the connections between concepts and subjects and are repelled by rote memorization and drill.


Many of those with AD(H)D fall into both of the previous categories, not just the top one.

## Solution 1: such students should be allowed to learn at their own free pace, without restriction ##

PRO:
More actual learning would happen in this way. I think the desire to learn has a major impact upon whether such actually happens with AD(H)D students. This method of learning is more friendly torward the mapping brains of these students.

CON:
The learning of important concepts may not happen. Since the teacher does not have control over the learning, basic concepts may be missed. This is not to say that such concepts need to be learned directly. In the process of exploratory learning, many basic concepts are assimilated into one's web of understanding/knowledge. Moreover, many with AD(H)D may need to be pushed to learn. Not all of those with AD(H)D are naturally exploratory.


## Solution 2: such students should be placed in a highly structured learning environment ##

PRO:
Most intrinsically (intrinsic with respect to the operation of the "real world") important concepts may be learned. Since work/homework is required, this may build a sense of responsibility and work ethic (although highly structured doesn't imply homework, it is generally assumed to be present). May build study skills such as note taking, organization (the common definition of it), planning, etc. (but usually does not)

CON:
If what is meant by structured is a classroom with an instructor and the students as the instructors audience, a predefined, scheduled order of the concepts presented is assumed. Based on the responses in this forum, most of us have a few interests in which one can hyperfocus on easily. Because the order in which concepts are learned is dictated, efficient learning does not happen. Moreover, this could embed a negative attitude torward classroom learning (and learning altogether, possibly).

## Solution 3: the classroom should be structured, but should allow time for free exploration. In addition, several modifications would be made to the classroom structurization. ##

Modifications:

Teachers should have a clear list of goals as to the concepts which need to be learned. If a student can prove that one is proficient with a concept, a record should be made and the student should not be required to do work that directly about the concept in question. If a student has proven proficiency in concepts that are beyond what the teacher has covered, the student should be allowed to learn independently, provided that it does not disrupt others. The student may come up with creative ways to prove proficiency while the teacher could recommend ways as well.


Relating to the previous bullet point, student's should be allowed to learn concepts out of order as long as early concepts are learned according to a minimal deadline timeline. If the student is having trouble doing this, the teacher should work with the student to learn these concepts. The teacher may force the student to learn along with his/her progression of instruction if the student cannot handle off-track learning.


Study skills may need to be taught directly instead of assuming the student will pick them up intuitively.


The progression of the class (if a one-subject class in high school/jr. high) should be made clear up front. Both in writing and on a web site. In fact, all assignments, tests, etc, should be made available online. While a student's organization in this respect is important, I think the overall desire to come to class and learn is much more important. This is not to say that organization should not be taught as well.


The course may need to enforce the use of a planner. I think the biggest problem we have with planners is remembering to use them/refer to them. If we can make planner usage habitual, we may be able to combat that problem (whether or not work is actually done in such an order is a completely different story.)

Solution 3 would assume a very small class size.

A real nice question Craig ... and partly an issue I was seeking to address in another thread here today.

My favourites teaching environments:
-encourage students to ask 'questions' at any level.
-permit the student to question the point of the subject being studied ie what is the benefit to him/her?
-teach the weaknesses and strengths of the subjects being taught ie allowing the kids in on the importance of 'fact' --- 'fiction' and the many intermediary steps which masquerade as either 'fact' or 'fiction' ... the grey area.
An important point in one's life when one sees grey where before there was only black and white, and statements become impossible without elegant qualification.
-fun.

Or maybe the 'Robin Williams' School of Schooling :-).

We're increasingly living in a shrink-wrapped world, with so much access to information -- that a skill that is becoming necessary -- is the ability to critique statements.
Unfortunately, one often ends up following a tangled web to get to, in the end, a mis-interpreted quote :-)

When fiction becomes 'fact', and 'facts' build upon 'facts' to yield great huge towering buildings, with fact scrawled in graffiti down the sides -- I worry, when I hear the foundations groan in disbelief.

SB.

I don't think that there's some sort of problem with "fiction" being taught as facts. Maybe occasionally in history classes at younger ages, where they don't want to scare the children by telling them about various atrocities, but actual subject matter is not the concern.

My concerns are similar to most of those mentioned earlier: smaller class sizes are a must, although this can be difficult to accomplish sometimes. Allowing children to ask as many questions as they need is also essential, not for the "fact" issue above, but because most ADD kids learn better by asking questions, it keeps them engaged in the issue and ensures that they can get something repeated if necessary.

Open windows, while aesthetically pleasing, are a big no-no. Otherwise anything that happens outside will distract the kids from their lessons. Busy work is also a big no-no. Once an ADD child understands the lesson, making him repeatedly engage in a task that he's already mastered and finds boring is simply not going to do anything but force you to give him bad grades when he fails to turn it in. In turn, this teaches him that punishment and grades are arbitrary and unconnected to whether or not he learns the lesson, and he is further alienated.

Also, don't necessarily make the whole class do the same thing at once. Let the kids move at their own pace through a lesson. This could be accomplished by making each unit more broad. What you want to avoid is the situation where some kids have already understood the lesson and want to move on, and others are still struggling with the concept. If you have a way for different groups to work on different aspects of a given unit, you can simply allow kids to move around and work on whatever they need help on.

Excellent and thought provoking question.

When Russ Barkley worked at the Mass.General Hospital, he conducted a study very similar to what you've envisioned.

I have only heard him describe it, so I'm paraphrasing all the way.

What he said was that the Worcester, Mass. school district gave him carte' blanche' over one classroom in a school w/in the district.

He was able to pick the teacher,the color of the room, number of students, etc.

He then had 2 groups of ADHD and non ADHD kids.

Again, I'm strictly paraphrasing, as I don't know what other measures were employed,as well as whether or not the ADHD kids were on meds.

In addition, each child in the class had their very own aide,whom I assume were also hand picked.

The aides went home with the kids after school and specifically helped them with their homework.

As you might expect, all the students were doing remarkably well, especially the ADHD group.

At this point, I would also assume he controlled for IQ and comorbidities, etc.

Here's the point though: he suddenly stopped the progam and all the ADHD kids behaviors returned to baseline.

The non ADHD students continued to do well.

I'm discussing it, he said that the school district was very angry with him for having done that.

He went on to say that the whole point was to be able to show that with ADHD (we're talking H-I & C types), that type of intervention has to be done "forever."

Thats a very rough description but you get the point.

I also recall reading a blurb in the Reader's Digest a few years ago about a study by another researcher for whom I have tremendous respect; George DuPaul, of Lehigh University's School Psych. program.

It was about using the classroom environment to control the behavior of ADHD kids; without meds.

He also developed the ADHD-IV Checklist, which I've heard Russ say has "better norms that the Conners," which for years was the best one out there.

I did a quick search and the article can be found at www.science.blog.com

He does excellent work and I'd love to see him speak in person.

The other site I'd recommend is Mel Levine's All Kinds of Minds.

This isn't an all ADHD site, as it covers learning problems in children.

He's a pediatrician, who teaches Medical School at the Univ.of North Carolina at Chapel Hill;one of the most beautiful places on earth if you haven't been there.

He's an innovative educator, who helped pioneer the idea of teaching to childrens strenghts at least 20 years or so ago

I'm not postive on the dates, but I'm relatively sure you'll like the site.

I think he's in the category of "one of the best researcher's you've never heard of."

I believe scuro is going to see him speak soon, so I'm looking forward to hearing about it.

I also think the SB_UK might find some of the ideas of both DuPaul & Levine interesting, as this is his area.

I hope you all get a chance to check these out.

I'm actually under the weather here so I only scanned it.

Thanks for the tips, Robert.

I've had one of Levine's books on audio for a while now, but forgot about it until a couple of days ago. Hope to get to it soon.

I am answering this at the end of a long day but the question does beg contemplations, and is much akin to the thread about “ADHD in the Traditional Classroom”.

Unsure how to answer I began by wondering what is wrong with “traditional school”. I leaned back in my chair with my head phone playing an inspiring song.

I saw cattle they were being driven from a large truck down in to a shoot with bars on either side. They weren’t allowed to turn to the left or the right they weren’t allowed to stop and ask why. They are cattle to remain a part of the herd. Any one of them try to be different they are hit with an electrical shock in punishment!!!!!

Now my visual take on what is wrong with schools at present stage. How do we make it different??? Easy quit herding cattle!!!!!! I do not blame the teachers they only are given so much to work with and aren’t given the resources to work with those who fall out side the line.

Ever one is taught the same why with no regard to difference in learning styles. Children sit and are expected to listen to lectures and read assignments that mean very little to them in every day life. With the exception of parental approval even teacher approval at times the work really has no practical use in a child’s life not any that most children can see.

Yes I understand the importance of education now in my adult years but I can tell you I was forced to sit in more classes that taught subjects that were of and still are of little value to me. The regular Joe may be able to be a good cow but AD/HD mind especially my hyperactive one needs to know why. If some thing isn’t interesting/entertaining then it must be useful or I do not retain the information.

I once was caught by a history teacher doing calligraphy. I was told I needed to stop what I was doing because I would need an education more than I needed to learn how to write cool looking letters. He was wrong, dead wrong, I have used the fancy letters I learned in his class 1000 times more than I have Texas history!!!

I was told by one of my daughters teachers she could not add or subtract. I went to speak with the teacher as I was working with her at home and knew for a fact she had no problems with the concept. The teacher asked about Jane and cans of beans…..Jane had four cans of beans and lost one what doe she have left…..my ADD, ODD, holy mother of :eek: child responded she didn’t know or care she hated beans!!!!!! That child has always been a poor cow never following the direction like all the other cows.

I pulled out a dollar and asked if I use this to buy a candy bar how much change will I have left…her response Would that cost be with or with out tax!!!!!!!!! She configured TAX!!!! ONLY when it was important did she even pretend to bother…poor pretenders don’t enguage brain activity for no reason!!!!!!

AD/HD with ODD. Conduct mother of :eek: can't pretend even to placate adults. They would if they could, most really want to be like every body else. I know this on a very personal level. I have been intimately close to “one of those” for 19 years as of two days ago . They don’t want to be what they are, but do not know how to be any one else. They behave as if they don’t care because not caring is a safer place than feeling the helpless that lays deep inside.

By the way my ADD, ODD conduct mother of :eek: is a poor follower but an excellent public speaker, has been able to cut hair since she was 8, and matched here Dad's socks before she knew the names of the colors!!!!!!

Interactive classes are more fun that lectures. Entertaining teachers are sooo much easier to listen to than a film!!!!!!!Touring the museum more ADHD friendly than reading about one. Classes that are entertaining, engaging or perceivable as useful will be tended to even by those children labeled as difficult!!!!!

Class size-> I have taught a learning skills class(mainly ADHD kids) of 10. It was 10 times more difficult then teaching art to a class of 33 kids. You should have seen the skilled art that was coming out of that class. When you are teaching well, the students are all following you. A class is a social grouping. ADHD kids are the "rejected" kids. Put them together and it is oh so hard to create a social structure. My perfect class would control of behaviour, making sure that no more then a small percentage of the class had behaviour problems. ADHD kids behave better when the rest of the class models behaviour for them.

teach a skill-> I once went to an inclusion seminar at a school that was totally integrated ...except for behaviour...but that is another story. We had specialists of all sorts there and it was an open discussion. Naturally we talked about behaviour kids at length. This is where the school was not working. I remember what one guy said, who worked in a lock down school. He said that if you want to turn a behaviour student around, you need a positive adult mentor and you need to teach them a skill. That lesson has stayed with me probably because I could relate. School didn't mean anything to me until I had a skill that both my teachers and parents recognized.
My perfect school would make time to develop a skill/talent in each student and it could be any skill that the student had a natural ability in. Extra- curricular programs are vital to schools.

Structure->Although it sounds great to let kids learn at their own pace, and and all learn different things ..I have yet to see it work for the ADHD kid. The more ADHD you are, the more off task you are. Unless you have your own EA beside you, this won't work. I love using student mentors. Let the strong help the weak.

The teacher->There is nothing more important to learn, then the love of learning. Math can be the most interesting subject on earth, in the right hands...using the right approach for the age. I'd rather sit in a class learning about Musicals from the best teacher in the field, then be taught art by a teacher who didn't care. It's great when a teacher loves to teach. It's awesome when a teacher gets to teach what they love.

Mead,

You should post more often when you're tired. Your point came across like a bull horn in a library and the story was inspiring.

As I have posted several times now on different threads, I am so thankful my kids have teachers and a principal that are, apparently, quite different. The funny thing is that, while we were careful to purchase a home where we could actually send our kids to public school (rare in LA), we actually wanted them to go to the another school; the assignment is divided by our street.

Your *amazing* daughter sounds a lot like my son (except, TG, he's not ODD). He understands most concepts well, but can't seem to engage in the performance task. Then there are areas that are completely elusive one day, and the next they just click. He used to have terrible problems understanding how money works. Now, suddenly, he's an expert.

One comment to the principal last year that I have a gifted child who's 1st grade teacher was clueless, and my son was assigned to an appropriate well-trained, caring 2nd grade teacher who sees every child as an individual and somehow manages to teach them accordingly.

I don't know how to fix this problem of individual needs. It's quite obvious to me that some manage to teach to individuals with 20:1 ratios, while others can't do it with 1:1. Quality of teachers, I think, should be our number one priority.

scuro,

Excellent points.

I would agree that (hypothetically) letting an ADHD kid work at their own pace is a bad idea.

The whole purpose of behavior management is to provide the needed structure to accomplish whatever task they're working on.

The first thing that came to mind was an ADHD kid getting ready for school in the morning ;completely w/o reminders.

The other thing that struck me were some of the Clinical Scales from the Behavior Rating Inventory of Executive Function (BRIEF), and how those would impact the idea of working at your own pace.

I 've posted this before but it's worth repeating.

The BRIEF is divided into 2 Indexes :

1) The Behavior Regulation Index or BRI,which contains the following Clinical Scales: (Inhibition, Shift and Emotional Regulation);

2) The Metacognition Index or MI, which contains the following Clinical Scales: (Initiate,Working Memory,Plan/Organize,Organization of Materials,and Monitor).

In addition to individual scores (Linear T scores) on each of the 8 Clinical Scales, you also get Index Scores across both BRI & MI, as well as a Summary score across all 8 scales,which is contained w/in the Global Executive Composite Scale or (GEC).

The one that I (personally) feel is the toughest to recognize, which is why some of these are referred to as "covert" or "private," is Initiate.

Deficits (T greater than or equal to T65 ) on the Initiate Scale have to do with the ability to (literally) "get started" or begin working on a task.

The manual referes to kids with Intiation deficits as typically wanting to get started but can't on their own.

There's more to it, but thaose are the things that crossed my mind before my first cup of coffee.:)

Show me an ADHD kid chomping at the (class work) bit and they probably have a comorbid anxiety disorder. My one daughter is that way actually. I'm joking here but there is some truth in it. Here is some more ADHD humour. How do you quickly identify which students have ADHD in your class?...ask to see everyone's planners. I used to try and teach "using your planner". You could teach the skills but they would never really use them for any length of time unless there was very strong support at home.

Show me an ADHD kid chomping at the (class work) bit and they probably have a comorbid anxiety disorder.
My son will do this, but only until you let him off the hook. He's not anxious, just well-disciplined. As soon as you say, "you're done" he's out of there! And he doesn't want to do less than what is fair, but he'll say, "Can't I do this tomorrow?"

How do you quickly identify which students have ADHD in your class?...ask to see everyone's planners.
Kids use planners? Is that typical now-a-days?

At what age does this start?

Our secondary school gave each new student their own planner at the beginning of the year.


My wife gave me one once. It had all these little color coded thingies in it.

No clue where it went.:)

Kids use planners? Is that typical now-a-days?

At what age does this start?

In our school board they encourage ( :) ) the use of planners around grade 3. For some (often adhd :) ) students it is also used as a communication book.

In our school board they encourage ( :) ) the use of planners around grade 3. For some (often adhd :) ) students it is also used as a communication book.
Hmmm. I have a parent-teacher conference this week. I might steal this idea & suggest it to DS's teacher. Thanks!

Wow, thanks everybody. Definately something for me to think on, and those links I will follow up on. I tried a search on this earlier earlier and have been reading about very expensive schools for 'special' kids but that's not what I wanted to know.

Thanks again, there are some very insightful minds on this forum.

Craig

Class size would not be such a major issue. Instead of dropping class size, I'd go for more EA's in a classroom.
I hate to harp on the same point, but I'm going to state this outright: I flat-out think you're wrong. I'd like to see stats that a large classroom with more assistants is better or the same as a small classroom for ADHD kids.

I went for a few years to a "progressive" sorta Montessori-style classroom, which was great. And it was large, which sometimes was fine, and sometimes was a nightmare, if the teachers didn't keep the volume down. I had so many issues staying in the classroom that I was considered one of the school's biggest "problem children." They routinely had to call someone from the office to watch our classroom while one of our teachers searched the school for me.

Reason I left? MELTDOWN. Hello, ADD sensory issues! Too much noise, from EVERY direction!

More kids = more distractions. That needs to be taken into account.

I hate to harp on the same point, but I'm going to state this outright: I flat-out think you're wrong. I'd like to see stats that a large classroom with more assistants is better or the same as a small classroom for ADHD kids.

Well Bean, tell me what you really think! :)
Okay so for an example, we have a class of 30 kids which in our perfect school is broken down into two classes of 15.

If you buy my idea that 1 teacher=2 EA's, then for the same same cost as 2 teachers you could have 1 teacher and 2 EA'S. What you get is an extra body out of the deal. Sure it's a bigger class but there is a flip side to that coin.

In the perfect school, all teachers would be masters of class control. Not only that but there would be side work rooms where students could go to do work. With two EA's in the classroom they could remove 6 or more students to get very close attention. That would leave 24 kids or less in the classroom.

It wouldn't work with every group of kids especially if there are many high needs kids but then you would control for that in a perfect school. The extra staff could actually work better in most instances.

Remember we are not taking real life.

Well Bean, tell me what you really think! :)
:D Okay, sometime after I posted that, it occurred to me that the tone may have been harsher than I intended, so I came back...but I don't have an "edit" button on my last post. It doesn't appear to have been changed by a mod, so I don't know why I can't edit, but there you go. Was just going to make a new post, and then....well, actually, I forget what happened. :eek:

Okay so for an example, we have a class of 30 kids which in our perfect school is broken down into two classes of 15.

If you buy my idea that 1 teacher=2 EA's, then for the same same cost as 2 teachers you could have 1 teacher and 2 EA'S. What you get is an extra body out of the deal. Sure it's a bigger class but there is a flip side to that coin.

In the perfect school, all teachers would be masters of class control. Not only that but there would be side work rooms where students could go to do work. With two EA's in the classroom they could remove 6 or more students to get very close attention. That would leave 24 kids or less in the classroom.
EA = "educational assistant?" Just clarifying, since I haven't seen that before.

Side work rooms might work, without sacrificing the fun flow you get with a larger classroom.

Remember we are not taking real life.
Well, see, that's the problem! Why come up with a solution if it's not theoretically feasible? :)

:D Okay, sometime after I posted that, it occurred to me that the tone may have been harsher than I intended, so I came back...but I don't have an "edit" button on my last post.

Don't worry...I'm thick skinned. :)
EA does=educational assistant.
If I had a choice...I'd take the extra hand...but that could be a personal thing.

In our school board they encourage ( :) ) the use of planners around grade 3. For some (often adhd :) ) students it is also used as a communication book.Planners sounds like a great ideal. I don't remember which teacher or serious of teachers (or maybe it was my organized mom) who taught me to organize my note book and write down the assignments, and put my homework in the front cover, but it sure helped. I'd have been lost in college without it, not to mention my job afterwards.

One easy thing I used to do when I taught school was to photocopy my lesson plans for the week (yes, no smart aleck comments, even with ADHD I did manage to make lesson plans for the week -- now don't ask me if I actually followed them all the time!:p ) and sent them home to the parents each Monday. Putting something like that in their notebook and signing off each little box for the kids who had problems was helpful -- not a perfect solution but helpful none the less.

Scattered

I flat-out think you're wrong.

Well the above started with an I statement!!!!! Which kind of took the edge off. The ability for others to tolerate an opposing opinion helps matters greatly.


Well Bean, tell me what you really think! :)

The smile face at the end of this helped convey tone in response. The tone was noted but respondent did not become defensive. Had the smile not been included I would have wondered!!!!

If tone is not indicated initially I do read the rest of the post to attempt to determine tone and intention. This post goes on to explain reason for preference.

Excellent recovery Scuro!!!!!


Okay, sometime after I posted that, it occurred to me that the tone may have been harsher than I intended, so I came back...but I don't have an "edit" button on my last post. It doesn't appear to have been changed by a mod, so I don't know why I can't edit, but there you go. Was just going to make a new post, and then....well, actually, I forget what happened.


Also well done Bean.

I wish being a moderator made me prefect but it doesn’t. I have had post where my tone came across harsher than intended. I too will post an apology public ally (rather than re-edit much later). If people have already read what I wrote it is too late to edit it out of their memory any way.

"Member information break"----------------------

Edit feature only works 30 minutes after the original post was submitted. After 30 minutes have elapsed then the system will no longer allow members to edit their post.

I know this because I had this happen to me before I became moderator. My cat disconnected my PC chasing a bug behind the computer while I was in mid-edit. Upset I PMed an administrator she said it was to prevent post in threads from constantly being changed . If I post and some one responds then I edit out what the second person responds to then their response doesn't make any sense!!!! Combine numbers of thread and ADDers changing thier mind and this begins to make prefect sense

The above is also why when I have to edit one inappropriate comment in a post often I have to edit four others who respond to the comment or quoted it. This can be a challenging ADD activity!!!!!

Edit appears only after original post has been submitted. While you are in edit your original post remains in public sight until the save changes button is hit in the edit section!!!!!

----------------------------------End of Member information break


It doesn't appear to have been changed by a mod,

We moderators really would rather spend our time writing our own thoughts for posting than editing post written by another member. I can speak for all, that we moderators really do not edit unless we absolutely have to due to guidelines infractions!!!!

The amount of time between a posting and moderator reading greatly depends on the number of moderators (moderator available hours) vs. number of members (and total member hours) Some thing similar to the class verse teacher ratio we are addressing in this thread.

Using this example of moderator vs members and length of time it takes us to pick up on offending post it would stand to reason that increased help with a larger crowd(large areas like this one) would be much the same mathematically speaking as fewer moderators in a smaller crowd(less traveled areas of the forums). The rest is personal preference.

I tend to like assistance because the more people that are working in an area the more opinions thus the more options available!!! Three heads do work better than one. One teacher with two assistance may be advantageous if the teacher and the assistance are able to work as a team. One way to accomplish this is to have good guidelines, leadership, and most importantly a shared goal. Even ADDers can function as team members under these circumstance. An example team members like moderators are different people with different styles but we all have the same goal. Convincing members to quit flaming each other and violating guidelines so we can go back to having fun!!!!! :D

Most post go public when the post is submitted which is why flaming is such a large no no. One rude member can ruin an entire thread by producing five more angry members!!!! I am sure this Domino effect holds true in the modern class room as well.

Most of the time moderating is a lot less stressful than teaching children in school, as most are adults. Then there are timesssss :rolleyes:

On to the topic which is where I was heading...my daughter did very well in what is called alternative education placement. Because this place housed all the troubled students from several different schools the children have to work self paced studies.

Socialization is very limited and students must adhear to strict dress code in which they are all expected to wear much the same clothing. My daughter always complained of boredom but her grades soared. .

. Kids are separated by cubicles. They are working different assignments, and are not allowed to socialize at all while in class. They do have recreation but it too is highly structured and extremely well supervised. All students in a given area are to participate in what ever sport or game is underway. Student are not allowed to break off from the group or form groups among them selves. Lunch is obtained from the lunch room with only small groups of students going at any given time. Then lunch is taken back to the class room and eaten under supervision. Bathrooms are across the hall from the class or even located in the class room itself (appropriate privacy with enclosed areas of co****). This is to prevent any more than one student at a time from going.

I was told that many children will continue to get into trouble so they could be returned to this very structured school environment. Another approach is for the kids to do well until their days are almost over then they will go through a phase of trouble making to actually extend their stay....maybe these troubled youths are telling us some thing but the system is failing to listen!!!!!!! It sounds too much like prison to me, and I as a parent was totally against my daughters placement at first. The results spoke volumes and made a believer out of me. Maybe just maybe some students need more structure than others. Maybe peer socialization is over rated by a majority of adults who hold fond memories of school chums forgetting some kids are out cast.

I once asked if I could keep my daughter in the alternate placement but was denied. I was told than many parents have requested this before because the student grades do tend to improve along with their over all conduct. This placement benefitted me as an employee, I could get through a work day without a call from the school office.

Maybe some teens function better in this environment just as some adults function better in the military. Much of the structure is borrowed from the military. This is not only viable it is already in existence for kids who are one step away from expulsion (thus the term alternative education) Despite the harsh sound of this school setting remember this setting housed ALL of the children from jr. highs and high schools in a town of 100,000 who would have other wise been expelled and yet some like my Michelle excelled greatly in this atmosphere!!!! Her stress level actually decreased when the distraction of social status and interaction was greatly reduced.

See and you all thought I expressed a desire to give the little beggars more freedom!!! No what I meant when I said quit herding cattle is to allow for different enviromets based on the child/s ability to handle them. School setting should enhance and encourage teacher child interaction. In the example given above the alternative school setting does this by eliminating most interactions between students. Yes the class sizes are small aprox 10-12, they max at 15/20 depending on grade level and conduct severity. More sever misbehaviors the smaller the class size for obvious reasons.. The only thing worse than 10 ADDers in a class of 35, is over fifteen adolescent ADD,ODD, and conduct holy mother of :eek: in one class room with only one teacher.

Also in main class room settings a lesson should be presented for the visual, auditory and kinesics learning styles. Classes should be more interactive as a group. There should be more hands lesson interaction. Our schools today focus on the importance of peer interaction maybe we have the interaction down right just got the wrong kind for ADDers to experience productivity and success.

Maybe adult ADDers like our selves have eluded failure by using our freedom of choice to decide upon environments that enhance our individual styles. We have years more experiences in learning coping strategies than our children yet we deny them alternatives to traditional class room settings (unless they get into trouble) and wonder at their failure rate!!!!!!! As I am typing this I am thinking DUH!!!!!! :faint: